To All The Vander Haters

[LAZER]

I said it on a different board.    But the point stands.    Witness the no-look fastball that Vander threw at Otule yesterday.   Chris had no chance.   Because of lack of depth perception, he is simply never going to be able to get the rebound that changes directions or the unexpected pass from close range.   So I judge Chris by how many rebounds the guy he is guarding gets, not the rebounds that he gets. 

He should be judged on how many rebounds he gets.  Depth perception or not, he's our center, he needs to rebound.

[MUCam]

He should be judged on how many rebounds he gets.  Depth perception or not, he's our center, he needs to rebound.

I will need to pay closer attention to Otule next game, but I seem to think that Otule's main job on the class is to eat up space, block out the other team's bigs, and let our athletic wings grab the rebounds in the space he creates. To that end, he does not necessarily need to grab rebounds if he is doing his job and creating opportunity for other MU players to get the rebounds and therefore judging him on how many rebounds he gets may not tell the whole story.

But what do I know...

[NersEllenson]

Really? Even for you that's a ridiculous statement.

LOL - Perhaps - but what big(ger) stage game(s) do you feel Vander has had an extended, tangible impact on a tight/big game?  If you mention making 4 Free Throws down the stretch at Villanova - that was clutch in a short moment...but not an extended impact over a game.  Big Difference.  Vander was the man for the entire 2nd half yesterday.  No doubting that.  But there is also no doubting, Vander's never been the man in a big game for MU prior to yesterday.  And that's not me hating on the kid....it is simply the truth.  Not sure why you continue to deny as much?!!

[MarsupialMadness]

Vander took charge out there when no one else would, and that's what impressed me the most.

[tower912]

He should be judged on how many rebounds he gets.  Depth perception or not, he's our center, he needs to rebound.

You can, but you will always be disappointed.   It is not possible for him, with only one eye, to be able to track in all 3 dimensions a ball that changes direction rapidly near him.    Watch him receive passes.    When he posts up, expects the ball, and gets it up high, he had good hands.    When someone throws an unexpected pass, he simply can't catch it.      The best he can do rebounding is to tie up as many opponents as possible and let a teammate get the rebound.  

[LAZER]

You can, but you will always be disappointed.   It is not possible for him, with only one eye, to be able to track in all 3 dimensions a ball that changes direction rapidly near him.    Watch him receive passes.    When he posts up, expects the ball, and gets it up high, he had good hands.    When someone throws an unexpected pass, he simply can't catch it.      The best he can do rebounding is to tie up as many opponents as possible and let a teammate get the rebound.  

I understand that he has vision problems, but he should be judged like all big men in college basketball and how he stacks up next to them.  I think it's kind of dumb to switch around the the criteria in which you judge Centers just because MU's Center isn't particularly good at arguably the most important part of a Center's game.

I don't want to come off as condescending/combative by saying it's dumb, but at a certain point if you're saying his strenth is to "tie up as many opponents" isn't that sort of an indictment of his game?

[brewcity77]

LOL - Perhaps - but what big(ger) stage game(s) do you feel Vander has had an extended, tangible impact on a tight/big game?

Last year: Washington, @ Syracuse, Seton Hall
Freshman year: @ Vanderbilt, @ USF

And I know his shooting percentage sucked against USF, but he got SOTG votes for his defense and aggressiveness that game. The difference is that in the past two years, no one really had to be the man because we had JFB, Jae, and DJO. Those guys accounted for 29/49 SOTG awards in that timespan. But just because Vander wasn't our go-to guy when he was on the court with up to three other future NBA players doesn't mean he wasn't playing well in close games.

Of course, that doesn't really fit the narrative...

[NersEllenson]

Last year: Washington, @ Syracuse, Seton Hall
Freshman year: @ Vanderbilt, @ USF

And I know his shooting percentage sucked against USF, but he got SOTG votes for his defense and aggressiveness that game. The difference is that in the past two years, no one really had to be the man because we had JFB, Jae, and DJO. Those guys accounted for 29/49 SOTG awards in that timespan. But just because Vander wasn't our go-to guy when he was on the court with up to three other future NBA players doesn't mean he wasn't playing well in close games.

Of course, that doesn't really fit the narrative...

Talk about grasping for straws to try to fit the narrative!  Come on Brew. Really - 5 questionable games in 2 years...and the fact Vander gets SOTG votes for South Florida game on 1-9 shooting is more proof some try to fit the narrative that he positively impacts games defensively - while only having 1 steal in the game.

Are you really going to deny that yesterday's game wasn't a stark contrast to Vander's overall career at MU?  Do you not agree that it was CLEARLY the best game Vander has played while at MU? 

[GGGG]

Please, please, please....Ners for all that is holy....STOP equating steals stats for defensive play.  Steals are fine.  But Jerel McNeal should show you that having a lot of steals doesn't necessarily make you a quality defender.

[NersEllenson]

Please, please, please....Ners for all that is holy....STOP equating steals stats for defensive play.  Steals are fine.  But Jerel McNeal should show you that having a lot of steals doesn't necessarily make you a quality defender.

Not surprisingly we disagree....I'd argue O'Neal was a better and more instinctive defender than Vander.  Get the old deflection charts out from Tom Crean.  Saw Vander get beat off the dribble forcing help about 3 times during Southeast Louisiana game...  He's a solid defender, but not spectacular - seems people are trying to make him into a Bruce Bowen, or lockdown defender...he's not.  Combine that with not getting many steals...would be interesting to see Blue's +/- over the years..

[GGGG]

+/- is also a poor stat to measure defense BTW.

If you want to think that O'Neal was a better defender than Vander...well, not much more I can say.

[Goose]

Vander is much better defender that McNeal. I love watching VB play D.

[We R Final Four]

+/- is also a poor stat to measure defense BTW.

If you want to think that O'Neal was a better defender than Vander...well, not much more I can say.

Who is O'Neal? Did I miss something?

[tower912]

I understand that he has vision problems, but he should be judged like all big men in college basketball and how he stacks up next to them.  I think it's kind of dumb to switch around the the criteria in which you judge Centers just because MU's Center isn't particularly good at arguably the most important part of a Center's game.

I don't want to come off as condescending/combative by saying it's dumb, but at a certain point if you're saying his strenth is to "tie up as many opponents" isn't that sort of an indictment of his game?

It is an acknowledgement of his limitations.   Just like I don't judge Gardner by his dunking ability under the basket. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Vander runs on momentum. Kid just wants to win.  MU did a great job against the zone today, finding threes and seams.