To All The Vander Haters

[BCHoopster]

For whatever reason, Vander is a polarizing figure.

Jamil Wilson is a year older than Vander, is a local kid, and was also highly rated in HS.

He had a TERRIBLE game.

There is no Jamil Wilson thread. Why not? (honestly, I don't know why).

The fact that there is a pro-Vander thread probably has more to do with the anti-vander threads than it does with people being super excited about him.

I think Vander is an above average player with a high ceiling. His biggest flaws (shooting and finishing) are usually items that get better with age/experience. I would guess most people agree, but we see the emotional roller coaster this board goes through with this kid.

Jamil, does not seem to have that killer instinct, might be to nice a kid.  Crowder was physically strong, Jamil does not have that type of body nor does he seem the type that wants
to mix it up, did you see how weak he was on that last second tip-in, or giving up on the D end against Clarke.  He must have had 5 or 6 open looks at the end and did even think about
taking a shot.  He is really a senior, needs to show senior leadership, there were positives in this game, just need more from a few other players.  Have to start making open shots.

[statnik]

Okay -I'll oblige.  First things first - definitely the best game of Vander's career - as it is his best game against a mid-high major team on a fairly large stage.  Happy for Vander and hope it is a springboard to similar consistent performances.

I'm probably in the camp of a Vander hater - simply because I call his game as I've seen it - and for the most part - it hasn't been very noteworthy or good.  The fact Vander scored 21 points on 50% shooting including 62% on 3 of 5 from the 3 is something to get excited about given his past performances.  The fact he scored 21 and virtually all were in the half court game is a ray of hope for the future.

Nonetheless, the fact we have a thread of this variety - is kind of interesting.  A 21 point performance on 50% shooting, isn't exactly an earth shattering amazing performance for a 3rd year starting player at the 2 guard.  But, it is basically the first time in Vander's career those who have been his staunchest supporters, can actually support their argument.  Don't hear anyone commenting on the fact he only had 3 rebounds today, 1 assist and no steals - yet talking about how he provides so many intangible things to the team in the way of defending, rebounding, hustling, steals, etc.  And why was he not guarding Clarke all day?  He should be defending the oppositions best player...

I agree, while he had a good game today, I think the fact this thread was made is more proof about how easy to please some people on this board are regarding Vander vs. how wrong the so called "Vander haters" are (which most are not as they are just pointing out the weakness in Vander's offensive game).

[MUHoopsFan2]

Well, I will give him love, it's too bad that the team as a whole didn't perform well enough to allow him to be SOTG.  I have doubted him, truthfully, but I'm the kind of guy who wants to be proven wrong when it's to the benefit of the team.

Excellent post. I believe in the kid...I think he has the makings to be very good if he works at it and I know he is a concientious player and wants to be coached and he knows what he has to work on to excel at a high level and get to where he wants to be.
I was encouraged by the shots through contact and the two and 1's he got. The 3 balls were good but I want to see him go straight up and down on his jumper and get rid of that leg kick...and get the elbow higher and extend the release and hold the follow through on the spot up shot...

Then we work on the in game ability to pull up and stop and pop from mid-range on a dime. The tools are there...I seen him do it in scrimmages and in Pro-AM and he probaly practices some of it...but now its gametime.

But the drives and the And1's I like. Drawing fouls and finishing the play and shooting through contact for a good foul shooter is key.

The officials are now respecting his drive because he is not playing timid and is being assertive making strong moves to the basket.

He is going up into the body or his defender and protectiing the ball well and then getting his shot off and on the rim and it is soft enough to roll in.

[MUHoopsFan2]

Blue took several bad shots. He did score some points at critical times and I have to admit I would have voted for him for SoG.

They were not "bad shots" they just happen to not go in...I don't think he took a bad shot per Se tonight.

There were a few open ones where his gather and elevation was not as fluid as it can be when he pushes his shot instead of loft and guide it, and then his legs come out from under here and his shot flatens out.

But it is a work in progress and I see strides.   

[brewcity77]

He had a TERRIBLE game.

There is no Jamil Wilson thread. Why not? (honestly, I don't know why).

The fact that there is a pro-Vander thread probably has more to do with the anti-vander threads than it does with people being super excited about him.

Because for some reason the people that hate Vander really get off on hating Vander. How many times is Vander dragged into a discussion about another player where his inclusion really has no place? There really isn't a need for this thread any more than there are all the anti-Vander threads. It's just that people are often too stupid to realize there are two sides to the court. Vander only gets respect when he performs at the offensive end, while getting none for being one of our most consistent on the defensive end. And I'm pretty sure Vander wasn't on Rotnei Clarke because it would have left no one for Junior to guard, and Junior did a darn good job on Clarke.

They were not "bad shots" they just happen to not go in...I don't think he took a bad shot per Se tonight.

No he didn't. I mentioned that in the chat room, his shots were in the rhythm of the offense and were just off the mark early on. Vander had good shot selection all night. In all honesty, some of his worst shot selection (and Junior's, for that matter) were on shots that happened to go in. But I guess when you're feeling it...

[MU B2002]

You blame a player that left MU like 5 years ago?

Maybe just maybe, he was kidding.  I can't be 100% certain, but I am going to go with my gut on this one and say it was sarcasm.

[MUCam]

Maybe just maybe, he was kidding.  I can't be 100% certain, but I am going to go with my gut on this one and say it was sarcasm.

Oh, my dear child. I was dead serious on both accounts.

[LAZER]

I guess I would consider myself a Vander "hater" and I'm just as a happy as all of you that he played well, but one game of 21-3-1 isn't going to erase the last two seasons and all of the other concerns I have about his game.  Having said that, I hope he plays great again today and for the rest of the season.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I guess I would consider myself a Vander "hater" and I'm just as a happy as all of you that he played well, but one game of 21-3-1 isn't going to erase the last two seasons and all of the other concerns I have about his game.  Having said that, I hope he plays great again today and for the rest of the season.

Not to pick on you specifically, but I don't think anybody has said Vander is "cured". He's not. We all know that.

I think for a lot of people (including me), the Pro-Vander posts are simple an effort to balance out some of the constant critiques of 1 particular player.

Again, Jamil has struggled at times. Junior has struggled at times. Otule is a starter and hardly played! Gardner is still braindead at times on defense.

Rarely do those players take any heat.

But, if Vander misses some lay-ups, you can bet your ass there will be a thread about it.

[brewcity77]

I guess I would consider myself a Vander "hater" and I'm just as a happy as all of you that he played well, but one game of 21-3-1 isn't going to erase the last two seasons and all of the other concerns I have about his game.  Having said that, I hope he plays great again today and for the rest of the season.

The thing with Van is that you can't judge his game strictly on that first number of 21. He's not going to have a lot of days like that. If he gives us great defense, solid rebounding, reliable free throw shooting, and takes what the defense gives him, he'll be great for us. Because it will likely only lead to 10-13 ppg over the next two years there are people that will constantly berate him, but I think it's safe to say that's not the true strength of his game.

[esotericmindguy]

Didn't get a chance to watch the game, caught the last 3 minutes. I suppose I'm labeled as a hater...even though I'm not. When I saw the box score I was very encouraged, I hope he continues to produce offensively, team needs it. That said, I'll always admit when I'm wrong, hope that's the case.

Wilson and Lockett have been a major disappointment for me so far this year, I was hoping they'd be the leaders. And Otule has another game with 1 rebound? Dude is 6'11, that's an issue as well.

[brewcity77]

One more thing...one game from Van where the shots fall doesn't make him a 20 ppg scorer any more than two games where the shots don't fall make him a 6 ppg scorer.

And it's hard to fault Otule when he wasn't on the floor. Dude only played 12 minutes.

[esotericmindguy]

One more thing...one game from Van where the shots fall doesn't make him a 20 ppg scorer any more than two games where the shots don't fall make him a 6 ppg scorer.

And it's hard to fault Otule when he wasn't on the floor. Dude only played 12 minutes.

1 Rebound in 12 minutes for a 6'11 player is still ridiculous....and probably the main reason why he only played 12 minutes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For whatever reason, Vander is a polarizing figure.

Jamil Wilson is a year older than Vander, is a local kid, and was also highly rated in HS.

He had a TERRIBLE game.

There is no Jamil Wilson thread. Why not? (honestly, I don't know why).

Probably because Jamil doesn't have the body of work that Vander has.  No different than watching some of your favorite sports teams (pro, college) and certain players one starts to get frustrated with based on repeated results.  If Jamil has a string of many games like this you might see similar type of threads.  The expectations of the two players was much different coming in as well. That's my guess at the responses. 

Vander also has had some off the court issues that I am sure weigh into some feelings for some posters.

[frozena pizza]

Why couldn't the title of the thread be "Great Game by Vander"?  Maybe it's more fun to turn everything into a negative and be confrontational.

Anyway, I love Vander but I have been critical of his game when he has been bad - mostly in his freshman year.  Yesterday he had his best game at Marquette and was easily our best player.  Any criticism of the way he played is nitpicking.  Not enough steals?  Please.  I would also point out that in a game where we had 5 guys with 3 or more fouls, he had zero fouls in 37 minutes.  Cadougan had only 1 foul in 32 minutes.  Some of our guys need to learn how to defend and get position without reaching in and bumping.

[GGGG]

Vander also has had some off the court issues that I am sure weigh into some feelings for some posters.

They need to let that crap go...it was two years ago.

[Goose]

Will say it again, hopefully this is the start of something big for Vander. Not easy always having great potential and being 3-5 option on the court. He has shown glimpses of being special and that was why I have stuck with him 100%. Not many guys ever show glimpses of being special and I think that maybe worked against him in some fans eyes. Off court stuff behind him and hopefully sky is the limit.

[NersEllenson]

Why couldn't the title of the thread be "Great Game by Vander"?  Maybe it's more fun to turn everything into a negative and be confrontational.

Anyway, I love Vander but I have been critical of his game when he has been bad - mostly in his freshman year.  Yesterday he had his best game at Marquette and was easily our best player.  Any criticism of the way he played is nitpicking.  Not enough steals?  Please.  I would also point out that in a game where we had 5 guys with 3 or more fouls, he had zero fouls in 37 minutes.  Cadougan had only 1 foul in 32 minutes.  Some of our guys need to learn how to defend and get position without reaching in and bumping.

Great post...I referenced his steals/rebounds in a prior post in this thread...simply because for the first time in a big/tight game, Vander had an extended, tangible impact on the game. In the past...all those who championed how big of contributor Vander has been were harping on his rebounds, steals, defense, intangibles etc....yet we hear almost nothing about those after this game....why?  Because we FINALLY have something positive to talk about with regard to him TRULY* impacting a game...and because he didn't have many rebounds or steals this game!

I'll be happy to eat sh$t all season long about my skepticism of him as a player, if he keeps this up.  The team needs it.   I do feel this game could do wonders for his confidence, and that alone could help him take a big step up...although it shouldn't be that difficult to take a big step up over what has been his first 2 years at MU.

[Goose]

Ners

I completely believe your hopes for Vander stepping it up. It is time that we are not just talking rebounds or tough D from VB.

[chapman]

I was finally sick of Vander's offensive woes until he went nuts yesterday.  Hopefully it's a sign of things to come.  His hustle and defensive prowess was excellent the entire game.

[NersEllenson]

Ners

I completely believe your hopes for Vander stepping it up. It is time that we are not just talking rebounds or tough D from VB.

Perfectly said...and I completely agree...let's have some expectations for the kid..

[Goose]

Ners

My expectations are that he will be our next NBA player. Time for him to deliver.

[NersEllenson]

Ners

My expectations are that he will be our next NBA player. Time for him to deliver.

Hope you are right...though I don't see it happening...I'll be ecstatic if he can put up 17ppg as a senior and 7 rebounds per game...which if he can do that and show a half court game...that could get him drafted.

[brewcity77]

1 Rebound in 12 minutes for a 6'11 player is still ridiculous....and probably the main reason why he only played 12 minutes.

No, it's not. As tower said recently, Chris shouldn't be judged on the number of rebounds he pulls down, but rather the number of rebounds the guy he is guarding pulls down.

...simply because for the first time in a big/tight game, Vander had an extended, tangible impact on the game.

Really? Even for you that's a ridiculous statement.

[tower912]

I said it on a different board.    But the point stands.    Witness the no-look fastball that Vander threw at Otule yesterday.   Chris had no chance.   Because of lack of depth perception, he is simply never going to be able to get the rebound that changes directions or the unexpected pass from close range.   So I judge Chris by how many rebounds the guy he is guarding gets, not the rebounds that he gets.