Ken Pom Loves the Ox

[GGGG]

Like Miles Plumlee at Duke??  Duke is an elite program and I can't remember them ever having a center of the type the folks here are describing.  If we are consistently at top 15 program that's elite enough for me.  Besides everyone seems to fantasize about the aircraft carrier center, I don't think those players exist much any more plus they absolutely don't fit in Buzz's system.

Butler went to two straight championship games with the 6'8" Matt Howard playing center for them.  In one of those games he faced the immortal Brian Zoubek (who was tall...and that's about it) and in the other he faced Alex Oriakhi. 

You certainly can win in the NCAA with an undersized center if you put enough talent around them as you mention.

[Dawson Rental]

Is this a line from the Odd Couple?

Part of a running gag we had regarding camping out for Tokoto's college choice announcement.

[NersEllenson]

Like Miles Plumlee at Duke??  Duke is an elite program and I can't remember them ever having a center of the type the folks here are describing.  If we are consistently at top 15 program that's elite enough for me.  Besides everyone seems to fantasize about the aircraft carrier center, I don't think those players exist much any more plus they absolutely don't fit in Buzz's system.

+1

Butler went to two straight championship games with the 6'8" Matt Howard playing center for them.  In one of those games he faced the immortal Brian Zoubek (who was tall...and that's about it) and in the other he faced Alex Oriakhi. 

You certainly can win in the NCAA with an undersized center if you put enough talent around them as you mention.

+1

You can be a Final Four caliber team, without a dominant big - just need a very serviceable big - and Gardner - like Matt Howard- definitely is serviceable - yet I'll go on a limb and say by his senior year, he will be dominant.  I'm looking for another big jump in performance from DG this year - hopefully he stays healthy all year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Matt Howard was far more than serviceable.

He was an very good college player.

Just because a guy doesn't make the NBA, doesn't mean he wasn't good.

With this said, you don't need to be outstanding at every position to be a top team... but you need to be good at most of them.

On Final 4 teams, they rarely having gaping holes at a position. The worst players are still usually very solid.

Honestly, Gardner/Otule combo is pretty damn good. Most teams would be hard matched to have a better pair.

[bilsu]

Without actually looking up the Duke championsip teams, I would expect them to have players that had long pro careers. Gminski (sp) was a true center, but that is going back to the 80's. Duke usually has good outside shooters and good forwards including the forward that would play center for them. Gardner probably woiuld not have started on any of Duke's NCAA championship teams.

[4everwarriors]

Big man's game.

[GGGG]

Big man's game.

We have had this debate endlessly here about whether its a "big man's game" or a "guard's game."  Both sides really miss the mark, because it is really about talent and balance.  You really can't win with a bunch of guards, and you can't win with a bunch of centers.  You need both.  And you need to get the best talent at these positions that you can.

So while above I mentioned Brian Zoubek.  No one would say he was particularly talented - his statistics are roughly equal to Chris Otule's.  But if you put enough talent around him, you can win a national championship.  Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler, etc. 

But you do need size.  And Marquette is going to have its tallest team in years in 2013-14.

[77ncaachamps]

FWIW, The Ox is #15 in the College BK Top 40 Hot List:

http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball

[Dawson Rental]

"Gardner averaged 19 minutes per game in his sophomore season as his role was limited behind the now departed Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom."

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/222738/Quinn_Cook_Alan_Williams_Davante_Gardner_Could_Be_Breakout_Candidates#ixzz22SCoCMig

If DJO wasn't hogging all those minutes at guard, Davante would have solidified himself as the second coming of Jeronnie Maymon!!!

[karavotsos]

I guess it's easy to make fun of a guy like Zoubek, but without his tremendous progress in that last year Duke does not win the championship.  That year, Duke struggled early in ACC play because they would get dominated by teams inside.  By the end of the year Zoubek was able to control the paint.  If I remember correctly, he had a couple big OReb putbacks in the final game.

I would also consider Howard a pretty classic big.  I don't think its solely the height that makes a guy a big.  Barkley is obviously the classic example.  But Howard had a strong back-to-the-basket post-up game.  He also fought like a mf'er defensively and for rebounds down low.  In 2011, that Smith guy also played a lot for Butler and he was 6'11", so I don't think Butler was necessarily a small team.

That said, what a team really needs is guys who are big and aggressive enough not to get pushed around down low by the other team's bigs.  When you play pressure defense like MU does, it is also extemely helpful to have a shot-blocker.  Getting post offense from a big seems to be a bonus for a lot of teams these days.  We have that in Gardner.  How nice was it last year to need a bucket and have him to go to?  They did it a lot.  I'm happy with the bigs situation going into next year.

When I think of why you need big guys to be elite I think of the MU-Stanford game and the midgets team when they played Syracuse.  It puts you in a huge hole when you have no answer for Lopez brothers or a Onuaku-Jackson combo.  A lot of easy buckets to make up for.