Former Assistant Darrin Horn fired at South Carolina

[Lennys Tap]

Is this getting progressively worse?

Year 1  24-3
Year 2  21-2
Year 3  19-5
Year 4  17-6
Year 5  15-8
Year 6  7-21
Year 7  6-18

Where do you get these numbers? Horn at S Carolina per Wikipedia:

year 1: 21-10, 10-6 conference
year 2: 15-16, 6-10
year 3: 14-16, 5-11
year 4: 10-21, 2-14

I'd say this record is the definition of getting progressively worse. By the time the program became totally his it was in freefall.

[Pakuni]

Yeah, too bad Buzz didn't walk into a program fresh off a Final Four with 2 NBA guys on the roster and miss the tourney the next 2 years.

Get lost.

Not to mention a future league MVP.
(Joe Chapman, British Basketball League MVP)

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I'm curious why, when word arrives that South Carolina's coach got fired, we are subjected to comparisons to him and our current coach? Mind you, our current coach...4 years in...just guided us to our best Big East season ever, a #3 seed all this one year after a Sweet 16 as an 11 seed.

Who gives a CRAP what this guy might have done at MU? It's a completely idiotic premise! Who would drum up such a scenario?

I actually think Darrin Horn would have done a MUCH better job preparing us for the Kansas game in 2003 and we'd probably have won the national championship had he been given the opportunity when Deane got fired. It's a shame we'll never know.

I am begging the moderators to ban Chicos again. There is something the matter with him. Freeway's Facebook updates make more sense and are 100x more interesting.

[Hoopaloop]

Where do you get these numbers? Horn at S Carolina per Wikipedia:

year 1: 21-10, 10-6 conference
year 2: 15-16, 6-10
year 3: 14-16, 5-11
year 4: 10-21, 2-14

I'd say this record is the definition of getting progressively worse. By the time the program became totally his it was in freefall.

Do we agree the numbers I posted show someone getting progressively worse?  The answer is of course it is

That was the 7 year record of a guy named Al McGuire before he started at Marquette.

It's OK, Mark. Hoop has an alert - whenever anyone says anything even slightly positive about Buzz it goes off and he runs over here with the old "Buzz woke up on third base and thought he hit a triple" bs. Conveniently disregards that Buzz was left little for year 2 and nothing for years 3 and 4. Buzz rebuilt on the run while Horn oversaw his program's decline, but that won't stop Hoop from (wrongly) asserting this was a good luck/bad luck scenario.

  I said Buzz is doing great.  Thought Buzz should have got Coach of the Year.  Picked Buzz's team for 3rd place.  I also said nowhere the Horn was better than Buzz.  Didn't imply it.  Didn't say it.  Didn't think it.  I did say that because someone failed somewhere else doesn't mean they would fail at MU in the same situation.  I stick to that.  People have failed elsewhere and other different circumstances done extremely well.  I'm glad we have Buzz.

[Hoopaloop]

I'm sure you're trying to make some completely irrelevant point here, perhaps with another coach's record, but Horn's USC record is as follows:

Year 1   21-10
Year 2   15-16
Year 3   14-16
Year 4   10-21

Yeah, that's progressively worse.

Yes, Horn's record is progressively worse.  So was Al McGuire's that I shared.  Bellicheat couldn't get over the hump in Cleveland.  Shanahan couldn't get over the hump at Oakland.  One could argue that Buzz Williams struggled at New Orleans.  Yes?  Different situations present different opportunities where coaches deemed failures suddenly become geniuses under a different situation. Feel free to disagree.   That's what I thought we were talking about, but instead a few of feel there is an attack on Buzz.  There is no such thing.  I support Buzz and always have. 

[Lennys Tap]

Every guy you cite struggled in their first head coaching job, learned from their mistakes and got better. Horn's arc is exactly the opposite.

[Hoopaloop]

Every guy you cite struggled in their first head coaching job, learned from their mistakes and got better. Horn's arc is exactly the opposite.

That's a solid answer and one I agree with.  Do you not also think the situation had anything to do with it?  The inherited players (John Elway vs Vince Evans or Steve Buerlein) (Drew Bledsoe \ Tom Brady vs Vinny Testaverde)?  The Organization (New Orleans vs Marquette) ?  The situation (Football school vs basketball school)?  Feel free to disagree if you wish.

There are, of course, examples of coaches who arced early with success, came down never to recover or those that rebounded back up as well.  Or even some that have been up and down throughout their career. 

[shoothoops]

Quickly skimming this thread, one of the things I do not see much of is how other coaches have also not fared well at South Carolina.  Eddie Fogler went to the dance twice in 8 seasons and had a decline for several seasons near the end.  Dave Odom went to the dance 1 time in 7 seasons.  He also had a decline for several seasons near his end there.

[Hoopaloop]

Quickly skimming this thread, one of the things I do not see much of is how other coaches have also not fared well at South Carolina.  Eddie Fogler went to the dance twice in 8 seasons and had a decline for several seasons near the end.  Dave Odom went to the dance 1 time in 7 seasons.  He also had a decline for several seasons near his end there.

THIS. IS. RIGHT.

Situations matter.  Horn's biggest mistake is not that he can't coach.  His biggest mistake was taking a job where few have succeeded the last twenty years.  Situations matter.

[GGGG]

THIS. IS. RIGHT.

Situations matter.  Horn's biggest mistake is not that he can't coach.  His biggest mistake was taking a job where few have succeeded the last twenty years.  Situations matter.

BUT IT GOT WORSE!!!

Look Chicos, I know you probably know the guy, but even if you buy the premise that he came into a bad situation, he wasn't even able to keep it even at the same level.  We aren't talking about a fan-base with unrealistic expectations that the coach failed to meet.  You are talking about a guy that INHERITED a program where he had enough talent to win 20 games, and four years later turned it into a program that lost 20 games.

And you think that has to do with the "situation?"  Bullcrap. 

[77ncaachamps]

It has to do with the situation (um, Horn, you should have done your homework and known what you were getting into)...

And it has to do with him (recruiting, promoting the program, coaching and developing players, in-game decisions, etc.).

So you really can't have one without the other.

So Horn goes like Kowalcyzk (former UWGB)...like Tim Buckley (former Ball State)...Kyle Green (former Lewis University).

Only Crean assistant still at his original HC position: Buzz.

[Hoopaloop]

You are talking about a guy that INHERITED a program where he had enough talent to win 20 games, and four years later turned it into a program that lost 20 games.

Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6.  Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?

I'm not Chicos.  I don't know Darrin Horn. I have never met Darrin Horn. My favorite color is green.  I have run two marathons in my life.  Spring is my favorite time of year.  I hate beets.  World peace would be cool.

[jmayer1]

Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6.  Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?

I'm not Chicos.  I don't know Darrin Horn. I have never met Darrin Horn. My favorite color is green.  I have run two marathons in my life.  Spring is my favorite time of year.  I hate beets.  World peace would be cool.

Then I guess you can never, ever say any coach is a bad coach since there are always different situations. This thread is riduculous. Why do you even give a crap if people think Horn proved he wasn't a good coach?

[drbchilds]

Freeway has a Facebook page??   Holy crap!!!!  I gotta become Facebook friends with that guy....What is his name on Facebook so I can find him????

[Hoopaloop]

Then I guess you can never, ever say any coach is a bad coach since there are always different situations. This thread is riduculous. Why do you even give a crap if people think Horn proved he wasn't a good coach?

If you believe that, fine.  I certainly don't.  There are some coaches that won't do well at any level or any situation.  Others need the right situation.  How has Kevin O'Neill done since he left Marquette? 

[MUMac]

Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6.  Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?

I'm not Chicos.  I don't know Darrin Horn. I have never met Darrin Horn. My favorite color is green.  I have run two marathons in my life.  Spring is my favorite time of year.  I hate beets.  World peace would be cool.

I met Al.  Darrin is no Al.  Comparisons are ludicrous, even by your standards.  You do recall that Freshman were not eligible back then, right? 

But, back to the matter, the comment that so offended you was accurate and your muddying the argument has done nothing to change that.

[GGGG]

Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6.  Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?

Darrin Horn is not Al McGuire.  Al McGuire came to a dinky Catholic school backwater and turned it into a national power at a time when college basketball was pretty much an afterthought.  Darrin Horn took over a BCS-level program that won 20 games and turned it into one that lost 20 games.

Look, you say you aren't Chicos.  But you certainly love to make illogical arguments-for-the-sake-of-arguments like he used to.

Bottom line...it is a STUPID comparison.

[Hoopaloop]

I met Al.  Darrin is no Al.  Comparisons are ludicrous, even by your standards.  You do recall that Freshman were not eligible back then, right? 

But, back to the matter, the comment that so offended you was accurate and your muddying the argument has done nothing to change that.

I'm not offended.  It is not a stupid comparison.  What would this board think today if one of the candidates for a Marquette opening job had taken a team in his first year with 24 wins and 7 years later had 6?  Al is a great coach.  I don't know if Horn is.  I am no comparing Horn to Al or anyone else.  I politely pointed out that there have been other coaches, including our own, that have had their teams regress considerably and still turned out ok.  That is all it was.

[MUMac]

I'm not offended.  It is not a stupid comparison.  What would this board think today if one of the candidates for a Marquette opening job had taken a team in his first year with 24 wins and 7 years later had 6?  Al is a great coach.  I don't know if Horn is.  I am no comparing Horn to Al or anyone else.  I politely pointed out that there have been other coaches, including our own, that have had their teams regress considerably and still turned out ok.  That is all it was.

Today or back then?  As Al delivered, MU is a much different place than it was when he arrived.  MU is making it's 30th NCAA appearnace (would be 31, but Al declined one year).  Prior to Al, MU made a whopping 3.  We often kid UW that they believe College Basketball started in 1990.  Well, at MU, it may have been 1968.

But, why do you keep bringing Al up?  Because that is your only defense of the comment that Horn's tenure got progressively worse?  As Pakuni pointed out - IT HAD.  And, I hate to break this to you, Al had NOTHING to do with it!!!!!