Kevon Looney mention by IL Prep Bullseye Brothers

[The Equalizer]

First of all, here was your original quote:

Every quote was real. If you searched you would have easily found them. Or you could have asked me for the links. Ironically you're the one that fabricated his story.

Second, I never said anybody called out Kevon specifically. I said a lot of them have said in general that they don't want people LIKE Kevon--i.e. the top 25 elite HS recruits.

There's a big difference there--but in your rush to try and attack, you didn't read closely enough.

My view --stated a few days ago-- can be summed up here:

I truly hope that Buzz can pull in a top 10 guy.  I really do.  But my need to defend Buzz at all costs isn't going to get me to pretend alongside you that some guy ranked outside the top 100 is really just as good as Kevon Looney or Tyus Jones.

You'll note that I didn't get a lot of suport for the comment.  At best, there were the hopeful Buzz will get it done in the future.  At worst, there were those I quoted that seemed hostile to the idea that we should crack our current ceiling, such as this: 

Yeah.  A couple posters on here seem to obsess over recruiting rankings and stars.  News flash: a player's basketball abilities, attitude, and work ethic makes a kid a good basketball player in college, not some meaningless number next to his name on a piece of paper or website created by some guy who has seen the kid play once, tops.  If it was up to people like The Equalizer and Erick, they might as well not even play a season.  Just get recruiting classes, take the rankings of all the guys on each team and average out their rankings, and whoever has the highest ranked players on average wins the National Championship.

I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who comes in and works his ass off to get better (Mayo, Gardner) than a guy ranked in the top 10 who feels he is entitled to everything and doesn't need to work for anything (Birch, formerly of Pitt).  DJO, Crowder, Butler, Buycks, etc. were not ranked coming into Marquette since they were JUCO players.  Man, those guys are awful.  I can't stand that we have players like them rather than 5 star recruits!

Putting aside the obvious false premises (not every underrated player works hard, not every top 25 players is a lazy bum) landing a top 10/top 25 player doesn't reduce the value of our other players--it would elevate us.

Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players.  But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit.  Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players.  But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit.  Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.

Holy sh*t man.  If you can't see that Buzz has no problem filling the roster with plus talent while Crean could barely get a starting 5 of Big East quality players then I don't know what to tell you.  At the moment we have two top 100 underclassmen on the bench.  Before Otule & Gardner went down (our two best centers since RJax, one of which is a top 5 Big East defensive 5, the other of which is a top 5 Big East offensive 5), we were bringing a top 50 guy off the bench in JWilson.  And Buzz "seems to have hit the same ceiling the Crean hit?" Wow, four classes in and you're willing to go there, especially when he has a commit from a borderline 5* for his 5th class already?  Christ you're a tool.  I can't believe I wasted 2 minutes of my life dignifying you with a response.  It will be the last time I do so.

[wadesworld]

Every quote was real. If you searched you would have easily found them. Or you could have asked me for the links. Ironically you're the one that fabricated his story.

Second, I never said anybody called out Kevon specifically. I said a lot of them have said in general that they don't want people LIKE Kevon--i.e. the top 25 elite HS recruits.

There's a big difference there--but in your rush to try and attack, you didn't read closely enough.

My view --stated a few days ago-- can be summed up here:
You'll note that I didn't get a lot of suport for the comment.  At best, there were the hopeful Buzz will get it done in the future.  At worst, there were those I quoted that seemed hostile to the idea that we should crack our current ceiling, such as this:  

Putting aside the obvious false premises (not every underrated player works hard, not every top 25 players is a lazy bum) landing a top 10/top 25 player doesn't reduce the value of our other players--it would elevate us.

Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players.  But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit.  Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.

Talk about fabricating a story.  Where in that quotation do I say all 5 stars are lazy bums?  I don't see it.  Must be missing it.  If you want to, you know, read the quote that you included from me, it says "I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who wants to come in and work his ass off to get better (Mayo, Gardner) than a guy ranked in the top 10 who feels he is entitled to everything and doesn't need to work for anything (Birch, formerly of Pitt)."  I completely stand by this statement.  Do you have trouble with your reading comprehension?  Where do I say that "every underrated player works hard" or that "every top 25 player is a lazy bum?"  Again, I don't see it.  I said I would rather have a guy like Gardner or Mayo, who are underrated players who come in and play above their almighty recruiting ranking  than a guy like Birch, who is a McDonald's All American who hardly played on a Pitt team having a very down year before transferring out after 1 semester.  Maybe you would have rather had that type of recruit, since he was ranked so highly, than a lower ranked player who outplays his ranking (and outplays the players ranked above him, like Birch)?  That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, if you want.

Your reading comprehension creates a ton of issues in your arguments.  If there is a guy who is a great basketball player who is going to come to Marquette and work his ass off every day to get better and is going to compete for everything, that is the guy I want.  If he is ranked the best recruit in the nation, great, I want him.  If he is ranked as a 2 star and Buzz sees what he needs to see, then great, I want him.  Rankings do not mean anything.  Again, a players attitude, work ethic, and ability, not a number next to a name, is what makes a player a good player.  Does that mean I don't want the 1st ranked player, if he's going to come in and work his ass off for everything he wants?  If that's how you comprehend that, I wish you the best of luck because you are hopeless.

[brewcity77]

Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players.  But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit.  Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.

Are you <expletive> insane? Buzz has been here four years. Four! Crean was here nearly a decade! And I don't think you fully understand the "ceiling" that Crean hit. That really only has to do with recruiting a top-100 big man.

Discounting their first season, as Crean took over too late to really get a full 1999 recruiting class and Buzz took over too late to get a full 2008 recruiting class (despite landing future NBA player Jimmy Butler), let's look at similar points of their careers, including either RSCI rankings, star-rankings, or JC status:

• TC Year 1 (2000): 85 Scott Merritt, 4* Odartey Blankson, 3* Terry Sanders, 3* Dwyane Wade
  
• BW Year 1 (2009): 47 Junior Cadougan, 67 Erik Williams, 73 Jeronne Maymon, JCAA Darius Johnson-Odom, JCAA Dwight Buycks

.
Crean brought in a top-25 recruiting class, headlined by a pair of four-star bigs and punctuated by a little known partial qualifier named Dwyane Wade. Buzz also brought in a top-25 class, led by Marquette's highest rated recruit since Dominic James (Cadougan) and rounded out by a pair of JUCO players that would go on to play major roles here.

• TC Year 2 (2001): 40 Travis Diener, 3* Ron Howard, 3* Todd Townsend, 3* Kevin Menard, Robert Jackson
  
• BW Year 2 (2010): 48 Vander Blue, 74 Jamail Jones, 3* Reggie Smith, 3* Davante Gardner, JCAA Jae Crowder

.
Similar classes again, with Buzz getting the slight edge. Both guys brought in a top-50 in-state player, both guys brought in a trio of 3-star or better recruits (with RSCI 74 Jones clearly being the highest regarded of the six), and both brought in highly sought after transfers, with Crean getting Mississippi State starting center Robert Jackson and Buzz getting the most sought-after JUCO in the land in Jae Crowder.

• TC Year 3 (2002): 57 Steve Novak, 4* Joe Chapman, 4* Chris Grimm, 3* Karon Bradley, 2* Mike Kinsella
  
• BW Year 3 (2011): 81 Juan Anderson, 3* Todd Mayo, 3* Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas

.
Crean brought in a dream class in 2002. From 1-5, he had Bradley, Chapman, Novak, Kinsella, and Grimm. Granted, Kinsella had to go JUCO, but the other four were all fairly well-regarded. Buzz didn't have as many scholarships to work with, but landed a top-100 of his own in Anderson, and two late-blooming prep stars in Mayo and Wilson. He also added a starting SG from another D1 team as a walk-on in Thomas. I would definitely give Crean the edge in terms of these comparative classes, though in the long run, Grimm never met expectations, and Kinsella went JUCO before coming to Marquette, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Buzz's class ends up the more productive of the two.

• TC Year 4 (2003): 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson
  
• BW Year 4 (2012): 73 Steve Taylor, 3* Jamal Ferguson, 3* Aaron Durley, JCAA TJ Taylor

.
Before anyone screams about Durley or TJ, I'm using Scout's rankings for Durley and with Taylor putting up 14.2 ppg/4.9 rpg/2.9 apg, I think he's at least going to get honorable mention JCAA status. Anyway...both had solid classes. One well-regarded centerpiece, one high-level JUCO transfer, and a couple nice pieces in between. But I would argue that with Christian and Matthews, this is where Crean's "wall" began.

• TC Year 5 (2004): 3* Ousmane Barro, 3* Ryan Amoroso, Niv Berkowitz, JCAA Mike Kinsella
  
• BW Year 5 (2013): 37 Deonte Burton

.
TC wall is in full effect here. In the afterglow of the Final Four, it was great to get Kinsella back, but I think he expected more than Barro and Amoroso. Both were decent recruits, but they're the kind of guys he expected to fill a class out with, not headline it. And then, of course, there was Niv Berkowitz...don't think I really need to say anything there. Buzz, on the other hand, has brought in Burton, and while RSCI doesn't have rankings out yet, I used the average of three of their sources (Dave Telep, Jerry Meyer, and Scout) to estimate where he'll be at. Regardless, if Buzz could use one scholarship that roughly was the equal of the most highly-regarded player TC ever brought in (RSCI 36 James) I'd definitely call that a more successful class. In addition, if a spot opens up, we're still in on Kendrick Nunn, Nick King, Duane Wilson, and others.

• TC Year 6 (2005): 36 Dominic James, 57 Jerel McNeal, 61 Wesley Matthews, 3* Dwight Burke, 3* Matt Mortenson, JCAA Jamil Lott
  
• Buzz Year 6 (2014): <None Yet>

.
Crean brought in a great trio of guards, but where he's hit the wall is in recruiting the great big man to compliment them. Burke and Lott were 6'8" and 6'7" respectively. Sure, he had Barro and Novak still here, but neither were the type of big bruiser that Jackson had been for that one glorious season or that he hoped Grimm would be. Mortenson, of course, never played for Marquette. It will be interesting to see what Buzz does with this class. He is slated to have four scholarships available (Blue, JW, Jones, Gardner) and we are in on numerous four and five star recruits, including Kevon Looney, Andrew Wiggins, Theo Pinson, Tyus Jones, Cliff Alexander, Noah Vonleh, JaQuan Lyle, LJ Peak, and Paul White. If Buzz could land just one or two of those guys, it'd come pretty close to matching Crean's Three Amigos class. Honestly, the key might be getting to an Elite Eight or Final Four this year, so go Warriors!

• TC Year 7 (2006): 4* Lazar Hayward, 3* David Cubillan, 3* Anthony Green, JCAA Trend Blackledge
  
• BW Year 7 (2015): <None Yet>

.
Hayward and Cubillan were the prizes of this class, but Blackledge was brought in specifically due to the inability to recruit a top-level big man. Green never made it to D1. Buzz obviously hasn't recruited this class yet, but I just noticed that Hoop Scoop, one of the RSCI mainstays, currently has Dominican prospect Diamond Stone as the #8 player in the entire nation. Maybe that's Buzz's shot at getting that prized highly recruited big that Crean never landed.

• TC Year 8 (2007): 91 Trevor Mbakwe, 3* Scott Christopherson, 2* Patrick Hazel
  
• BW Year 8 (2016): <None Yet>

.
Shortly before departing, Crean landed what probably could have been that guy he was always looking for. Would it have worked out for Mbakwe if Crean had stayed? Who knows. I'm sure Christopherson would have stayed (which would have been for the better) and Hazel may have as well (which would have been for the worse). Regardless, Mbakwe was the highest-rated big since Merritt (Novak was always more of a wing, not counting R-Jax as a 1-year transfer) and it took 7 years to get from point A to point B. That was the ceiling Crean hit. In addition, he was looking for the true top-level center, and Mbakwe was more of a power forward. No point in mentioning 2016 for Buzz, it's too far out.

• TC Year 9 (2008): 73 Tyshawn Taylor, 88 Nick Williams, 2* Chris Otule, JCAA Joe Fulce
  
• BW Year 9 (2017): <None Yet>

.
Taylor and Williams were two more solid recruits, but again the big man is lacking. Interestingly enough, there was a solid big man and PF (had he stayed healthy) in that class in Otule and Fulce, but both were Buzz recruits. Of course we know what happened with Taylor and Williams.

What's interesting to note is how Crean has done since getting to Indiana. Many perceive he left because while he had no problem getting consistent guards and wings (Diener, Novak, Mason, James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, Taylor, Williams) he didn't have nearly the success at landing high-profile front court players (Merritt, Mbakwe). When he arrived at Indiana, he brought in RSCI #45 Christian Watford, more of a 3 than a 4, but taller than any previous top-100 recruit he had brought in to Marquette other than Merritt. He followed that up with 5-star big man Cody Zeller in 2011, RSCI #35 Hanner Perea in 2012, another 3* in Luke Fischer coming in 2013, and 5* Trey Lyles in 2014. Whatever struggles he had here he seems to have corrected at Indiana, but it's still far to early to project similar struggles on to Buzz, especially with guys like Alexander, White, and Stone in our sights.

[GOO]

My only beef with Crean's recruiting was the big drop from the starting 5 and lack on a center or even a tall guy, and maybe being short at most positions.  When he had playing time to sell and an open position, he could recruit for it... otherwise, he had trouble and he couldn't keep non-starters around very well who didn't get a lot of playing time.  Too often we had no legitimate back up players.. big drop off from the starters, and too often we were undersized at many positions.   Those were concerns.   

That is my perception anyway. 

Buzz, in a short time, has got the starters, and gotten high major non-starters to commit.  Buzz doesn't seem to need an open position to get high major recruits.  He also isn't recruiting a bunch of undersized players.  I see a big step up with Buzz, in that even with an injury or two, we still have a competitive team.

As far as coaching is concerned.  Hands down Buzz wins out for player development and just putting the team in a winning position (with Gardner he was used correctly, without Gardner the team changes philosophy and still wins).  He has been incredible.  No slight on Crean, but Buzz is unique and we sure are lucky to have him. 

Finally, Crean had MSU to sell when he came in.  Buzz, didn't have the same base to sell from for recruits.  Now Buzz can sell himself and what he has done.  Buzz is just getting started, look out because I don't think there is a ceiling for Buzz!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Finally, Crean had MSU to sell when he came in.  Buzz, didn't have the same base to sell from for recruits.  Now Buzz can sell himself and what he has done.  Buzz is just getting started, look out because I don't think there is a ceiling for Buzz!

No slight on Buzz, but he had a LOT more advantages in recruiting when he came in.

Big East, the Al, chartered flights for the team, Wade/Jordan brand, a recent final 4, etc. etc.

He didn't have a high profile asst. job to "sell", but had more than enough other things to sell to recruits.

[The Equalizer]

Holy sh*t man.  If you can't see that Buzz has no problem filling the roster with plus talent while Crean could barely get a starting 5 of Big East quality players then I don't know what to tell you.  At the moment we have two top 100 underclassmen on the bench.  Before Otule & Gardner went down (our two best centers since RJax, one of which is a top 5 Big East defensive 5, the other of which is a top 5 Big East offensive 5), we were bringing a top 50 guy off the bench in JWilson.  And Buzz "seems to have hit the same ceiling the Crean hit?" Wow, four classes in and you're willing to go there, especially when he has a commit from a borderline 5* for his 5th class already?  Christ you're a tool.  I can't believe I wasted 2 minutes of my life dignifying you with a response.  It will be the last time I do so.

Do you mind if I address your comment reasonably and without the namecalling?

First off, I respectfully reject your initial premise.  I think the talent levels on the 2006-8 teams were roughly equivalent to what we've had in 2009 through 2012.  When you start out with the Amigos and Hayward, its hard for me to agree with the premise that we "could barely get a starting 5 of big east quality players"  In reality, we played 8 or 9 deep while finishing 4th or 5th in the Big East.  

While I sense your anger or my point about hitting the ceiling, let's cycle back to my original premise:

True or false--the highest ranked recruit (per the RSCI consensus) Buzz has landed was #40 Jamil Wilson (a transfer), followed by #48 Junior Cadougan and #48 Vander Blue?

True or false--the highest ranked recruit Crean landed was #33 Robert Jackson (a transfer), followed by #36 Dominic James and #40 Travis Diener.

Given the correct answer to both questions is true, then I cannot understand either the basis for your anger, or the basis for your counter argument.

My observation is that neither Crean nor Buzz have been able to crack that upper fourth of HS recruits.  And Buzz has not just 4 years--he's has five classes signed, and a sixth is already full (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013).  In six classes, we don't have such a player, and he is recruitng for 2014.

Second, can anyone offer any reasonably counter-argument to any of the following comparisions (none of this "Crean recruited nothing but Blackledge types"):
--Both coaches have benefitted from lower ranked or unranked players who's performance surprised by "overachieving" (Wade, Hayward for Crean, the JUCOs for Buzz).  
--Both have had top 100 players who have perfomed as expected (Amigos for Crean, Blue, Wilson for Buzz).
--Both coaches have had some players that didn't perform as expected (exampls Bell & Christian for Crean, Maymon & EWilliams for Buzz)
--Both have recruited players that they shouldn't have (Berkowitz, Roseboro)
--Both have managed to field teams that have made the NCAA tournement while  staying in the top half of the Big East standings.

My point isn't to make an absoulte determination of who is better--my point is that the profiles of the types of players and performance of both Crean and Buzz have been very very similar.

Those who want to credit Buzz for DJO and Crowder's unexpectedly strong performance don't seem to want to give similar credit for Wade and Hayward.

Those that want to credit Buzz for the performance of Jamil Wilson or Vander Blue don't seem to want to give considration for Steve Novak or Travis Diener.

I'll grant that Buzz has had less time than Crean--but he also had the advantages of --coming to MU with prior HC experience
--serving as an MU asssitant for a year
--recruiting into the Big East for his entire tenure versus six years of CUSA
--taking over an established program rather than rebuilding after a losing season.
As an aside, I'm not sure time in the job is all that relevant, as Scott Drew and Josh Pastner have both been able to demonstrate.

[The Equalizer]

Talk about fabricating a story.  Where in that quotation do I say all 5 stars are lazy bums?  I don't see it.  Must be missing it.  If you want to, you know, read the quote that you included from me, it says "I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who wants to come in and work his ass off to get better (Mayo, Gardner) than a guy ranked in the top 10 who feels he is entitled to everything and doesn't need to work for anything (Birch, formerly of Pitt)."  I completely stand by this statement.  Do you have trouble with your reading comprehension?  Where do I say that "every underrated player works hard" or that "every top 25 player is a lazy bum?"  Again, I don't see it.  I said I would rather have a guy like Gardner or Mayo, who are underrated players who come in and play above their almighty recruiting ranking  than a guy like Birch, who is a McDonald's All American who hardly played on a Pitt team having a very down year before transferring out after 1 semester.  Maybe you would have rather had that type of recruit, since he was ranked so highly, than a lower ranked player who outplays his ranking (and outplays the players ranked above him, like Birch)?  That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, if you want.

If I understand you then, you weren't providing the names of Mayo/Gardner and Birch as being representive of the work ethic or expectations of unranked and highly ranked players respectively.

Not sure if this was your intent, but by selecting the players you did, you created a biased comparsion--thus giving unranked players an illusory advantage.

I guess I should have specified this:  Assuming that all other things like willingness-to-work and lack-of-ego are equal, would you agree that a top 25 or top 10 player is far more likely to elevate a team's play than an unranked player would be?

In other words, would you prefer Gardner or Zellar?  Mayo or Austin Rivers?  Lets take the willingness to work out of the equation.

[Pakuni]

No slight on Buzz, but he had a LOT more advantages in recruiting when he came in.

Big East, the Al, chartered flights for the team, Wade/Jordan brand, a recent final 4, etc. etc.

He didn't have a high profile asst. job to "sell", but had more than enough other things to sell to recruits.

We've been through this all before, but when Crean did have all those things to sell (Big East, AL, recent Final Four, etc.) his recruiting didn't get better, the 2005 class excepted. Many of his best and highest rated recruits - Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, Mason - came before those advantages existed or were even well established on the radar.

[Canadian Dimes]

I read as much of this thread as I could stomach.... and I would like to adress one thing.

i have been around the AAU game for along time and have been around a lot of recruits.

The generalization and comments that "these 5 star players are lazy and entitled"  or whatever the stupid comments are just that stupid!.  Sure there are the Renardno Sydneys and the Khem Birchs out there and I am sure others can find other example like Jereme Richmond from Illinois etc.  

But to say we dont want 5 star recruits becuase they are all like that is really really really stupid.

Stupid not becuase these guys are sooo good, or stupid becuase Buzz could get them to work hard but stupid becuase the vast majority of those kids are not "problems" at all.

They are kids that God blessed with tremendous atleticism but kids that have also busted their ever lovin humps to get where they are.  We currently have a young man who is in the top 50 of the Junior class.  he is the nicest hardest working kid in that class in the program.  Works out 2 hours a day at an incredible level after his HS practices, spends time with the younger kids in the program and is a s nice a young man as you will meet.  He also gets excellent grades.  

He is what 90% of the 5 star and even 4 star type players are like ...heck 3 and 2 star too for that matter.  

Yes there are your jackasses out there just like everywhere and coaches dont have a whole lot of problems finding and avoiding them.  

If bUzz was able to attract 5 star players I can assure you the toughness and character of the program would not suffer.  A team takes on the culture of it's leader.  Buzz will continue to recruit tough high character kids out there.  There are alot of good players Buzz will sign the right good players.

Someone had mentioned  D'Angelo HArrison.  Dont know the kid never met him.  We all know we were a finalist for him.  The point is we basically signed MAyo becuase we missed on HArrison.  Now i think MAyo is going to be a very fine player at MU and help us to put up many victories during a very fine career.  

However, their is no doubt that having a HArrison over MAyo this year would have been an upgrade, harrison is putting up phenomenal numbers.  

Bottom line is the vast majority of the top rated players are good kids and will fight and scrap like many of the 4 and 3 star kids we have today, but they are better ball players and MU's culture will not change... but we will be even better if we can sign more of them.  

to cast all 5 stars as bad apples is extremely ignorant.  Guys like Durant, GArnett, D Williams, Kobe, Lebron and theis list goes on far out way the bad apples.  

[Niv Berkowitz]

And then, of course, there was Niv Berkowitz...don't think I really need to say anything there.

How dare you sir! How. Dare. You!!

[The Equalizer]

We've been through this all before, but when Crean did have all those things to sell (Big East, AL, recent Final Four, etc.) his recruiting didn't get better, the 2005 class excepted. Many of his best and highest rated recruits - Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, Mason - came before those advantages existed or were even well established on the radar.

When you line up the BE annoucement against the recruiting calendar, 2005 was actualy the first class we recruited following the BE announcement.

In addition to the Amigos, who were influenced by the BE annoucement, Hayward, Mbakwe, Taylor, NWilliams, EWilliams (verbal), JFulce (JCAA), Otule all committed after entry to the Big East.

[4everwarriors]

Besides all the stuff I've posted about Looney, CD makes the most relevant statement along with those who argue Crean sucked ass.

[Lennys Tap]

can anyone offer any reasonably counter-argument to any of the following comparisions (none of this "Crean recruited nothing but Blackledge types"):
--Both coaches have benefitted from lower ranked or unranked players who's performance surprised by "overachieving" (Wade, Hayward for Crean, the JUCOs for Buzz).  

--Both have recruited players that they shouldn't have (Berkowitz, Roseboro)
--Both have managed to field teams that have made the NCAA tournement while  staying in the top half of the Big East standings

1.Wade and Hayward = 2 in 9 years and both were in some top 100s. Butler, DJO and Crowder = 3 in 4 years and were rated much lower out of high school. Add Mayo and Gardner to the list.
2. Berkowitz, Christian, Menard, Bell, J Matthews, Mortenson, Green, Blackledge and Hazel for Crean. Mbao, Mcmorrow and Roseboro for Buzz (he was left in a position where he was desperate for size)
3.Crean spent four of his 9 years at or below.500 in CUSA

[77ncaachamps]

Looking back at Crean's 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes really steamed me.

Recruiting starts early and often so I don't expect sudden recruiting success right after a Final Four appearance, but you gotta hold him accountable for not even getting QUALITY from those two classes.

There wasn't enough ball to go around with Diener and Novak, but seriously: 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson, Barro, Niv, Amoroso, Kinsella?!?

Only MJack and Barro were ANYTHING for MU since they stuck it out!

That's two year's wasted and he set himself up for failure.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Looking back at Crean's 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes really steamed me.

Recruiting starts early and often so I don't expect sudden recruiting success right after a Final Four appearance, but you gotta hold him accountable for not even getting QUALITY from those two classes.

There wasn't enough ball to go around with Diener and Novak, but seriously: 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson, Barro, Niv, Amoroso, Kinsella?!?

Only MJack and Barro were ANYTHING for MU since they stuck it out!

That's two year's wasted and he set himself up for failure.

"Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program"
-Buzz Williams

We will never see empty classes like that again, especially not back to back, and ESPECIALLY not after a deep tournament run.

[Lennys Tap]

"Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program"
-Buzz Williams

We will never see empty classes like that again, especially not back to back, and ESPECIALLY not after a deep tournament run.

Probably not, but it has nothing to do with Buzz. It's because we're in the Big East (with DePaul, S Fla, etc.) and fly charter.

[BCHoopster]

I read as much of this thread as I could stomach.... and I would like to adress one thing.

i have been around the AAU game for along time and have been around a lot of recruits.

The generalization and comments that "these 5 star players are lazy and entitled"  or whatever the stupid comments are just that stupid!.  Sure there are the Renardno Sydneys and the Khem Birchs out there and I am sure others can find other example like Jereme Richmond from Illinois etc.  

But to say we dont want 5 star recruits becuase they are all like that is really really really stupid.

Stupid not becuase these guys are sooo good, or stupid becuase Buzz could get them to work hard but stupid becuase the vast majority of those kids are not "problems" at all.

They are kids that God blessed with tremendous atleticism but kids that have also busted their ever lovin humps to get where they are.  We currently have a young man who is in the top 50 of the Junior class.  he is the nicest hardest working kid in that class in the program.  Works out 2 hours a day at an incredible level after his HS practices, spends time with the younger kids in the program and is a s nice a young man as you will meet.  He also gets excellent grades.  

He is what 90% of the 5 star and even 4 star type players are like ...heck 3 and 2 star too for that matter.  

Yes there are your jackasses out there just like everywhere and coaches dont have a whole lot of problems finding and avoiding them.  

If bUzz was able to attract 5 star players I can assure you the toughness and character of the program would not suffer.  A team takes on the culture of it's leader.  Buzz will continue to recruit tough high character kids out there.  There are alot of good players Buzz will sign the right good players.

Someone had mentioned  D'Angelo HArrison.  Dont know the kid never met him.  We all know we were a finalist for him.  The point is we basically signed MAyo becuase we missed on HArrison.  Now i think MAyo is going to be a very fine player at MU and help us to put up many victories during a very fine career.  

However, their is no doubt that having a HArrison over MAyo this year would have been an upgrade, harrison is putting up phenomenal numbers.  

Bottom line is the vast majority of the top rated players are good kids and will fight and scrap like many of the 4 and 3 star kids we have today, but they are better ball players and MU's culture will not change... but we will be even better if we can sign more of them.  

to cast all 5 stars as bad apples is extremely ignorant.  Guys like Durant, GArnett, D Williams, Kobe, Lebron and theis list goes on far out way the bad apples.  

I agree with most that you say, there is a reason they are 5 star, just look at Kentucky every year.  The Harrison/Mayo comparison to me is still up in the air.  Harrison plays 30
minutes a game vs. Mayo maybe 15-18.  Harrison and Harkness are there main scorers, Mayo is the maybe the third when he is on the court for short spurts of time.  Next year
might give you a better picture as I expect Mayo to become one of the top scorers, Jamil Wilson and Mayo should be the go to guys next year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We've been through this all before, but when Crean did have all those things to sell (Big East, AL, recent Final Four, etc.) his recruiting didn't get better, the 2005 class excepted. Many of his best and highest rated recruits - Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, Mason - came before those advantages existed or were even well established on the radar.

To clarify my previous post:

I'm responding to this specific thought.

Finally, Crean had MSU to sell when he came in.  Buzz, didn't have the same base to sell from for recruits.  Now Buzz can sell himself and what he has done.  Buzz is just getting started, look out because I don't think there is a ceiling for Buzz!

Buzz didn't have MSU to "sell" at the start of his MU career, but he had plenty of MU specific things to offer recruits when he took the job.

I'm only comparing the STARTING POINT for each the day he stepped on campus. I'm not comparing the results, just the starting point.

[Earl Tatum]

Maybe because it's the city, school and weather. Milwaukee is just a small major city in the Midwest compared to NY, LA, etc., weather is cold in winter and the school being located in this environment is not suitable to big
time major recruits. Hate these thoughts but everyone wants to go to the big city these days. Academics could
tie in. Hope Looney stays in Milwaukee.

[The Equalizer]

Looking back at Crean's 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes really steamed me.

Recruiting starts early and often so I don't expect sudden recruiting success right after a Final Four appearance, but you gotta hold him accountable for not even getting QUALITY from those two classes.

There wasn't enough ball to go around with Diener and Novak, but seriously: 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson, Barro, Niv, Amoroso, Kinsella?!?

Only MJack and Barro were ANYTHING for MU since they stuck it out!

That's two year's wasted and he set himself up for failure.

Compare the 2004 incoming class to the 2013 incoming class.

MJax--NJCAA compared to TJ Taylor -- (possible) JCAA
#71 Dameon Mason compared to #68 Steve Taylor
3* Brandon Bell compared to 2* Jamal Ferguson
2* Carlton Christian compared to 2* Aaron Durley

As I said, the type of recruits both coaches landed are very very close.

[🏀]

Compare the 2004 incoming class to the 2013 incoming class.

MJax--NJCAA compared to TJ Taylor -- (possible) JCAA
#71 Dameon Mason compared to #68 Steve Taylor
3* Brandon Bell compared to 2* Jamal Ferguson
2* Carlton Christian compared to 2* Aaron Durley

As I said, the type of recruits both coaches landed are very very close.

MJax compared to TJ Taylor? TJ Taylor was much higher ranked out of high school.
Mason & Taylor is a push, except that all Illinois experts said he was headcase and knew he wouldn't stay at one place too long. Taylor is a better recruit.
Brandon Bell and Jamal Ferguson? Ferguson is a three star and consistently ranked in the top 140, same with Brandon Bell
Carlton Christian had no business in a D-I uniform. Durley does.

[Canadian Dimes]

Not sure why ESPN dumped their rating on TJ TAylor and now have himas a 40, which means yet to be evaluated.

Odd becuase back in 2010 when he was a Oklahoma commit they had him as a 94.  really solid rating, equivalant to a top 50-75 recruit

[4everwarriors]

For those livin' west of Lake Michigan and east of Johnson Creek, channel 24 has Hamilton vs Riverside on the tube tonight opposite Idol. Your chance to view the area's Syr., Georgetown, MSU, Tennessee, UW, and MU recruit, Kevon Looney.