This thread was about Roseboro, but now it's a pissing contest

[77ncaachamps]

Looking back at Brusewitz's season, maybe Buzz saw a chance at having his own "ginger" in Brett.

[Pakuni]

Wasn't Menard all Illinois honorable mention and teammates with several other MU signees?  He then transferred to Valpo.  Roseboro is going to end up at a NAIA or DIII school likely.  At least Menard was a DI player, this kid simply is not a DI player, let along a Big East player.  He's not even a low A-10 player

No, Menard transferred from MU to Division III Carthage in Kenosha.
As hard to believe as it may seem, Brett Roseboro was a more accomplished DI player than Kevin Menard.
Menard, however, did have a very solid DIII career. No shame in that, he just simply didn't belong at a high major (or even mid-major) Division I program.

[Lennys Tap]

I thought it was bad to criticize Buzz or admit he makes mistakes.

You thought wrong. It is wrong to distort or misrepresent the truth in one's criticism. Which is what you often do. Hope I "oversimplified" it enough for you.

[Lennys Tap]

BTW, it didn't save us a wasted year.  We were unable to fill Roseboro's scholarship and carried only 12 players into the season.  

It saved Roseboro a wasted year. You thought it would have been more fair to the kid to stick him at the end of the bench and then not renew him the following year. I think that's nuts.

It saved MU all the time and effort that would have been spent on on kid - a year of it wasted on a kid who had no business being here and who had no interest in getting with the program.

[Lennys Tap]

Wasn't Menard all Illinois honorable mention and teammates with several other MU signees?  He then transferred to Valpo.  Roseboro is going to end up at a NAIA or DIII school likely.  At least Menard was a DI player, this kid simply is not a DI player, let along a Big East player.  He's not even a low A-10 player

You're thinking of Ron Howard. Menard was not a D1 player. He wasn't even a DII player. He was a DIII player.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, Menard transferred from MU to Division III Carthage in Kenosha.
As hard to believe as it may seem, Brett Roseboro was a more accomplished DI player than Kevin Menard.
Menard, however, did have a very solid DIII career. No shame in that, he just simply didn't belong at a high major (or even mid-major) Division I program.

That's right, Ron Howard went to Valpo. 

How is Roseboro a more accomplished DI player than Menard?  I'm just curious.  I'd also be curious if Menard was part of the recruiting "process" to get Townsend and Howard who were his teammates at the AAU level.  Let's also not forget that Menard was offered when Marquette was in CUSA and he committed to a team that hadn't seen the NCAAs in 4 years.

Also note that Menard was teammates with James Augustine who MU was after (at one point) and eventually signed with Illinois.

http://a.espncdn.com/highschool/a/000706aupoll.html

[Pakuni]

That's right, Ron Howard went to Valpo. 

How is Roseboro a more accomplished DI player than Menard?  I'm just curious.

More games played, more seasons played, more minutes played, more points scored, more ppg, more mpg, more rebounds, etc.

I'd also be curious if Menard was part of the recruiting "process" to get Townsend and Howard who were his teammates at the AAU level.  Also note that Menard was teammates with James Augustine who MU was after (at one point) and eventually signed with Illinois.

Are you suggesting that TC recruited then signed a clearly inferior player (ranked #19 in the Illinois class of 2001) to get at his AAU and/or high school teammates, and then cut the kid loose when it didn't work out?
Wow, even Ners and Lenny's wouldn't suggest something so cynical. That makes what happened to DJ Newbill look positively generous.
Anyhow, I doubt that's the case. More likely, TC just missed badly on a kid, just as he did with Niv Berkowitz and, to a lesser extent, Brandon Bell and James Matthews. It happens.





[/quote]

[Lennys Tap]

That's right, Ron Howard went to Valpo. 

How is Roseboro a more accomplished DI player than Menard?  I'm just curious.  I'd also be curious if Menard was part of the recruiting "process" to get Townsend and Howard who were his teammates at the AAU level.  Let's also not forget that Menard was offered when Marquette was in CUSA and he committed to a team that hadn't seen the NCAAs in 4 years.

Also note that Menard was teammates with James Augustine who MU was after (at one point) and eventually signed with Illinois.

http://a.espncdn.com/highschool/a/000706aupoll.html

A simple "I was wrong" about who Menard was and "I was wrong" that Roseboro was the monumental recruiting error in Marquette recruiting history would have sufficed. The backpedalling only makes it look worse.

[ChicosBailBonds]

More games played, more seasons played, more minutes played, more points scored, more ppg, more mpg, more rebounds, etc.

So you're basing it on tenure and competition that is not the same, and not on ability.  So if a kid averaged 3 points a game for four years in DI that would be better than a kid that averaged 6 points a game but only played one year in DI and transferred to a DII or DIII school?  I'm just using an example, those are not stats of either player.  I honestly don't see how Roseboro is accomplished in anything at the DI level.  That's not to suggest Menard is, but I fail to see how Roseboro is a more accomplished player when they are playing against different competition (A-10 vs CUSA...the good CUSA back then, not current day CUSA)

Are you suggesting that TC recruited then signed a clearly inferior player (ranked #19 in the Illinois class of 2001) to get at his AAU and/or high school teammates, and then cut the kid loose when it didn't work out?
Wow, even Ners and Lenny's wouldn't suggest something so cynical. That makes what happened to DJ Newbill look positively generous.
Anyhow, I doubt that's the case. More likely, TC just missed badly on a kid, just as he did with Niv Berkowitz and, to a lesser extent, Brandon Bell and James Matthews. It happens.

Are you suggesting that stuff doesn't happen.  LOL.  Happens all the time.  Also helped us get someone like Maurice Acker several years later.

Yup, Niv and others were major misses, as I stated earlier.  You're also right, it happens.  Matthews was kicked off for disciplinary reasons.  Bell for the same reason.  Roseboro...just plain isn't good....a lot like Niv but Niv was a desperate reach for a guard and signed to play with MU during the season, almost unheard of college hoops.  Roseboro was a head scratcher the day he was signed and nothing since that day has been a surprise to anyone which begs the question why he was signed.  Mbao redux, another total head scratcher.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Oh good. Another one of these threads.

[GGGG]

Oh good. Another one of these threads.

Yeah, no kidding.  One thread was shut down and now it is popping up again in this one and threatening to do so in the "new recruit" thread.  I really wish the mods would create a Tom Crean pissing match thread so the handful of bozos who want to continue to debate this can do so, and keep these other threads on topic.  No one is saying any thing new...no great insights...just the same old crap.

[Marquette84]

You thought wrong. It is wrong to distort or misrepresent the truth in one's criticism. Which is what you often do. Hope I "oversimplified" it enough for you.

You confuse your own errors, misrepresentations or distortions with my attempts to correct you.  For example, within the last day, you distorted the truth when you claim that Buzz inherited two empty classes.

All I need to do is point out that Hazel's (would-be senior) departure had nothing to do with Crean, Fulce actually was part of this year's senior class and was signed by Crean, Otule (would-be Junior) was reclassified as a soph because of an injury that had nothing to do with Crean.

So with those three examples alone, I can easily prove with fact that your continued suggestion that Buzz inherited two empty classes is a distortion or misrepresentation on your part.

You have two legit options:
--You can correct my facts (i.e. post information that shows that Hazel left when Crean did, that Otule never redshirted, or that Fulce didn't commit to MU until after Crean left).  Obviously you can't do any of that because my facts are correct.
--You can admit that you were wrong.

Instead, for several years now you've chosen the low road of accusing me of distortion every time I correct you on YOUR distortion.  Its like Newspeak straight out of 1984.  Your lies are the "truth" and my corrections to your lies are "distortion".

[Marquette84]

It saved Roseboro a wasted year. You thought it would have been more fair to the kid to stick him at the end of the bench and then not renew him the following year. I think that's nuts.

A simple "I was wrong" about the school wasting a scholarship  would have sufficed. The backpedalling only makes it look worse.

[Skatastrophy]

Yeah, no kidding.  One thread was shut down and now it is popping up again in this one and threatening to do so in the "new recruit" thread.  I really wish the mods would create a Tom Crean pissing match thread so the handful of bozos who want to continue to debate this can do so, and keep these other threads on topic.  No one is saying any thing new...no great insights...just the same old crap.

I fixed the title so I can remember to not click on it anymore.  Hope that helps.

[4everwarriors]

Actually it's all Crean's fault for being a complete inverted penis from the moment he took over this storied program.

[Pakuni]

No one is saying any thing new...no great insights...just the same old crap.

Thanks much for the new thoughts and great insights, not the same old crappy whining about the direction some threads take.
Can't decide which is worse ... the same people engaging over and over in the same Crean-related arguments, or the same people complaining over and over about the same Crean-related arguments appearing over and over. I tend to lean toward the latter. At least those partaking in the same dumb arguments are aware of the futility of their efforts.

[Henry Sugar]

I fixed the title so I can remember to not click on it anymore.  Hope that helps.

Well played

"my name is Brett Roseboro, and I'm a BEAST"

[GGGG]

Thanks much for the new thoughts and great insights, not the same old crappy whining about the direction some threads take.
Can't decide which is worse ... the same people engaging over and over in the same Crean-related arguments, or the same people complaining over and over about the same Crean-related arguments appearing over and over. I tend to lean toward the latter. At least those partaking in the same dumb arguments are aware of the futility of their efforts.

If people want to argue about Crean, they can feel free to do so.  What bothers me is that it continuously infests threads that have different topics.  We have threads dedicated to the NFC Central and the NL Central in the Superbar...why can't we do something similar for those who want to debate the Crean issue...again...

It makes the board completely unreadable when I go back to threads I have posted to, only to have to wade through this crap to find posts that are actually on-topic.

[Nukem2]

If people want to argue about Crean, they can feel free to do so.  What bothers me is that it continuously infests threads that have different topics.  We have threads dedicated to the NFC Central and the NL Central in the Superbar...why can't we do something similar for those who want to debate the Crean issue...again...

It makes the board completely unreadable when I go back to threads I have posted to, only to have to wade through this crap to find posts that are actually on-topic.

Yeah, have a separate "CreanBar" for those posters who want to keep ripping ( or praising ) TC.  Its history folks.  Take it off-line from this page. 

[NersEllenson]

The Crean vs Buzz debates and arguments all begin when the 2 resident Crean fanboys level ridiculous criticism at our current coaching staff.  When these 2 Crean fanboys complain, gripe, and insult the current team - calling them choking dogs who pee themselves, lucky to make a Sweet 16 due to matchups...and the current coaching staff saying their: recruiting tactics make them squeamish,  that they recruit too many JUCO's, greatly exaggerate the "misses" of Buzz's recruiting compared to those of the previous regime - well, it all goes south from there.

I appreciate what Tom Crean got accomplished here - and had NOTHING against the guy - prior to coming to this board - but to read the constant nitpicking and criticism of our CURRENT coach - that's where I got suckered in to the ridiculous Crean debates.

But I do realize it is futile to get Joanie 84 Crean to stop posting, and Chico's Tom Crean Man Crush Fan Club.

[Pakuni]

It makes the board completely unreadable when I go back to threads I have posted to, only to have to wade through this crap to find posts that are actually on-topic.

Fair enough.
But how does the constant whining about this "crap" make the board any more readable?
I mean, is a post reading in its entirety "Oh good. Another one of these threads." really on topic? Does your post add new insight?  

I'm not defending the incessant pro/anti-Crean posts around here. I too often partake, and am a dope for doing so. I recognize this. Sometimes I manage to avoid it, sometimes I don't.
But your posts and others like it detract from the issue at hand just as much and are every bit as useless, if not more so. At least those posts are talking about something related to MU hoops.

I will now finally listen to my better judgment and say no more.

[GGGG]

Fair enough.
But how does the constant whining about this "crap" make the board any more readable?
I mean, does a post reading in its entirety "Oh good. Another one of these threads." really on topic? Does your post add new insight? 

I'm just trying to get the attention of the mods to let them know that this long-time poster is getting a little annoyed that they have let this go on for so long....not the Crean debates...but letting subjects degenerate into Crean debates.

[Chili]

[Lennys Tap]

A simple "I was wrong" about the school wasting a scholarship  would have sufficed. The backpedalling only makes it look worse.

I wasn't wrong. Roseboro leaving did save MU a wasted year - all the wasted time and effort that would have been spent on a guy who who was short on talent, effort and attitude was avoided.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Yeah, have a separate "CreanBar" for those posters who want to keep ripping ( or praising ) TC.  Its history folks.  Take it off-line from this page. 

nah, just call it the "Tanning Bed".