DWade and Team Trinity

[MarkCharles]

The downgrade is not because he left the Cavs, it is that he went to the Heat.  The Spurs, Lakers, or Celtics would have been the same.  I have no interest in knocking James.  I am just calling it as it is.  I am not crowning him the King at age 18 so it creates an assumption of greatness.  There is no burden on me to prove that James isn't the King.  The burden is on people who say he is.  He is one of the best athletes to ever play the game and he has above average talent.  He has a high IQ.  His freak athleticism allows him to dominate.  He is one of the best players in the league.  Cleveland was a good club.  No one can say they overachieved by getting to the second round.  Most would say that they underachieved, especially this year. 

We brought up how good the east was in the context of James getting to the NBA Finals.  That was probably the easiest path to the finals that any team will get short of the years the Nets made the finals earlier in the decade.  And yes, I do think those Knicks, Heat, and Pacers teams would be very competitive late in this decade because of their defense.  The defensive 3 seconds changes some stuff, but those teams could play, and just had a dynasty that they could not beat.

Ok, you view his choice differently than I do. Agree to disagree.

You said it yourself--Cleveland underachieved this year. And last year. And the year before that. In the Playoffs Because that team was built to be great in the regular season, not the playoffs. Any very good-to great team, like the Celtics, was able to find and exploit their deficiencies in a 7 game series. That group was simply not built to win a title.

When I think about Lebron's decision, Kevin Garnett comes to mind. Both were loyal to their original clubs for a while. Garnett longer, but don't you think Garnett wishes he got out of Minn before he did? He wasted a lot of years playing for a team that was not going to win a title. Lebron didn't want to do that. That puts no tarnish on his greatness. He will be considered an all-time great if he plays like one, not simply because he wins multiple titles.

THe year the Cavs made the Finals, the east was very weak. Lebron was not ready.  But that is not the time that I consider him to have taken the step towards greatness. That has been the last 2-3 years, and the east has been anything but easy in that time. Cleveland's playoff results in that time should illustrate that. I've been talking about Lebron in the context of his inability to win a title with a seemingly great team, and his decision to do something about that other than hope for development from role players. Believe me, I have never called him the King. I believe, and I assume Lebron does too, that that stuff was a major hindrance for his maturity.

Again, I'd like to hear your defense of how you think the Pacers could dominate this east. Or the Heat. How exactly would either of those rosters dominate Dwight Howard? Lebron James? Rajon Rondo + the three hall of famers around him?

[HoopsMalone]

Again, I'd like to hear your defense of how you think the Pacers could dominate this east. Or the Heat. How exactly would either of those rosters dominate Dwight Howard? Lebron James? Rajon Rondo + the three hall of famers around him?

I'll quickly run through the decade as Indiana/Miami/NYK/Orl v. any of the Eastern Conference champs.  Any one of those teams would have been better than Philadelphia, beat New Jersey both times, played both of Detroits teams close, played close with the Heat with Shaq/Wade, demolished the Cavs, the Celtics in 08 would take any of those teams, and Orlando and 2010 Boston would have been close.

Interior defense, general toughness and competitiveness, ability to score at guard and inside, etc would have allowed those teams runner up teams from the 1990s to get to the Finals 5/10 times.  This decade was not the eastern conference's finest hour, with most of the bad happening at the beginning of the decade whereas the 1990s eastern conference was a grind where a lot of good teams were outshown by Chicago.  You seem to be a lot more impressed with players like James, so we may have to agree to disagree. 

Should be a good NBA season coming up.  Things are getting competitive these last few years so hopefully it stays fun.

[ohiomarqfan]

My prediction: Miami wins a couple a championships but what will become completely clear is that Wade is a better player than James and will be viewed that way by everyone. In other words, by going to Miami Lebron James just became Scottie Pippen.

[pbiflyer]

My prediction: Miami wins a couple a championships but what will become completely clear is that Wade is a better player than James and will be viewed that way by everyone. In other words, by going to Miami Lebron James just became Scottie Pippen.

It was very clear during the introduction party in Miami, that while they are happy to have James, it is DWade's team and town.

[GoldenWarrior]

Go D Wade, but screw the Heat and LBJ...

"I got a goal, and that's to bring an NBA Championship to CLeveland. And I won't stop until I get it" -LeBron James.

[MerrittsMustache]

My prediction: Miami wins a couple a championships but what will become completely clear is that Wade is a better player than James and will be viewed that way by everyone. In other words, by going to Miami Lebron James just became Scottie Pippen.

It's become clear to me that LBJ wants to be Scottie Pippen. He doesn't want the pressure of having a franchise and an entire fanbase depending on him to bring home titles, and he doesn't want to be blamed if he doesn't deliver. When the Bulls came up short against Detroit, did anyone place blame on Pippen? No! It was all on Jordan. If LBJ stayed in Cleveland or went to Chicago or NY, the pressure all would have been on him. That pressure would have been huge and I don't think LeBron had any interest in dealing with it. He just wants to play basketball and have fun. In Cleveland, he always had the fall-back of "it's not his fault, the supporting cast is bad" but as the Cavs improved their roster, the pressure on LeBron became greater and greater...so he bolted for some place safer.

In Miami, LeBron has the protection of two other big-name players, including one that has already won a title in that city. The Heat are D-Wade's team and Miami is D-Wade's city (and county). That's a huge part of the appeal for LeBron. What he fails to realize is that if this experiment doesn't result in championships, many people are still going to pin the blame on him simply because he's the biggest name.

[Pakuni]

It's become clear to me that LBJ wants to be Scottie Pippen. He doesn't want the pressure of having a franchise and an entire fanbase depending on him to bring home titles, and he doesn't want to be blamed if he doesn't deliver. When the Bulls came up short against Detroit, did anyone place blame on Pippen? No! It was all on Jordan. If LBJ stayed in Cleveland or went to Chicago or NY, the pressure all would have been on him. That pressure would have been huge and I don't think LeBron had any interest in dealing with it. He just wants to play basketball and have fun. In Cleveland, he always had the fall-back of "it's not his fault, the supporting cast is bad" but as the Cavs improved their roster, the pressure on LeBron became greater and greater...so he bolted for some place safer.

In Miami, LeBron has the protection of two other big-name players, including one that has already won a title in that city. The Heat are D-Wade's team and Miami is D-Wade's city (and county). That's a huge part of the appeal for LeBron. What he fails to realize is that if this experiment doesn't result in championships, many people are still going to pin the blame on him simply because he's the biggest name.

+ 1
Another reason his decision was a head scratcher. If he wins a title, people will say 'Great, but he needed two other star players to carry him along.' If he doesn't win a title or, perhaps more likely, multiple titles,  he'll get more than his share of the blame. After all, Wade already has proven he could win one without LeBron. So the problem, the thinking will go, must be LeBron.

[jeffreyweee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZr2qOXQJ4w&feature=player_embedded


hilarious.

[HoopsMalone]

When the Bulls came up short against Detroit, did anyone place blame on Pippen? No! It was all on Jordan.

In 1990, Scottie got a migraine in game 7 against Detroit and blew it.  People did (and still do) blame him for that 1990 loss.  But the fans were not necessaily relying on Scotte to step up in the big game, so your general point is right.  MJ could not get it done.

Lebron will take ALL the heat when they lose. 

[brewcity77]

In 1990, Scottie got a migraine in game 7 against Detroit and blew it.  People did (and still do) blame him for that 1990 loss.  But the fans were not necessaily relying on Scotte to step up in the big game, so your general point is right.  MJ could not get it done.

Lebron will take ALL the heat when they lose. 

And Wade will get all the credit if they win. LBJ really put himself in an odd position where the best case scenario paints him as the guy who couldn't get it done alone, whereas for Wade the worst case scenario will put the blame on James. Win-win for DW3 and lose-lose for LBJ.

[wyoMUfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZr2qOXQJ4w&feature=player_embedded


hilarious.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[flash]

The think I love about Lebron and Bosh joining Dwade in Miami is that, no matter how many championships they win together, D-Wade will always have 1 more. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Somehow, the Heat have managed to put together a roster.  Signing their third center in as many days along with other players earlier in the week.

How were they able to do this?

[MUSF]

Somehow, the Heat have managed to put together a roster.  Signing their third center in as many days along with other players earlier in the week.

How were they able to do this?

Wait a second, people on this board said they would only be able to sign the big three and a bunch of minimum contract scrubs.  Are you telling me that Pat Riley knows more about his team and the salary system in the NBA than MUScoopers?  That can't be.

[willie warrior]

Pretty simple how they were able to do this.

Each of the big three gave up about 2 million per year from their max contracts with Wade giving up about 2.5 million in first year. I have not seen the numbers for the out years of the contract, but as I understand it, each succeeding year is about 8 % higher than the prior year.

I believe that for the first year, the Heat had an additioinal about $7 million in cap room, and with trade of Beasley, this created another couple million for this upcoming year.

Don't know the exact number, but I'm guessing that the Heat ended up with about $8 million to play with in first year, giving them enough to sign Miller, Ilgauskas and Haslem. If Ilgauskas agreed to veteran's minimum, that does not even count against cap, and because Haslem and Anthony were already Miami roster, they may not have all of their salary counted against the cap.

Pretty complicated, but the Heat definitely knew what they are doing!!! They probably still have a few million to go.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pretty simple how they were able to do this.

Each of the big three gave up about 2 million per year from their max contracts with Wade giving up about 2.5 million in first year. I have not seen the numbers for the out years of the contract, but as I understand it, each succeeding year is about 8 % higher than the prior year.

I believe that for the first year, the Heat had an additioinal about $7 million in cap room, and with trade of Beasley, this created another couple million for this upcoming year.

Don't know the exact number, but I'm guessing that the Heat ended up with about $8 million to play with in first year, giving them enough to sign Miller, Ilgauskas and Haslem. If Ilgauskas agreed to veteran's minimum, that does not even count against cap, and because Haslem and Anthony were already Miami roster, they may not have all of their salary counted against the cap.

Pretty complicated, but the Heat definitely knew what they are doing!!! They probably still have a few million to go.

Yup.  Which is why the idea it would be the big 3 and just stiffs surrounding them was a bit much.  The irony is that they will have more flexibility in the years to come.  The toughest cap year for them is the first year.

[HoopsMalone]

Stop traffic, they traded a player that was on their team (Beasley) and signed a player in his place (Miller).  Then they re-signed their own guy in Haslem.  Ilgauskus is exactly the type of player I was expecting them to fill around.

You can't draw a line between stiffs and not stiffs and then when it appears to you that a player signing is in the "not stiff" category that everyone on this board was off base for questioning the Heat roster.  If Ilgauskas is not a stiff, I don't know who is, but I guess we are all free to have our own opinion of stiff.

They had the big 3 and beasley and now have the big 3 and Mike Miller.  Not much else around them.  Maybe you guys see it differenly but there are not guys like Brad Miller taking the veteran minimum when he has a $5 million offer.  They aren't getting good players down there in my opinion. 

Matt Barnes would be a nice signing for them.  But I imagine players like Juwand Howard and Jason Williams on the team.  I pray for Shaq to sign just to add a little more entertainment.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The problem, hoops, is that some people were saying it would be 9 minimum salary guys and the big 3.  That was nonsense then and it's nonsense now.

[HoopsMalone]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=mia

This lists the salaries.  They are already at $57 million without Ilgauskas included.  I am surprised Mike Miller had a front loaded contract but it makes some sense I guess with the 10.5% raises the big 3 get in coming years.

It's a good team, but the consequence is the big three, beasley or mike miller, and most veteran minium players.  I am not sure where the "I told you so" posts are appropriate?  Haslem was nice, I will admit that.  He took $4 million instead of $5 million to stay in his hometown and Haslem is the consequence of the paycut.  But are people gloating that the Heat picked up Ilgauskas?  You have to sign 13 players by league rule and these are the guys you are going to get.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's not a "I told you so post".  Riley is a smart guy and so are the players on that team.  They will do fine, they probably will not win it this year, may not even finish in the top 3 in the East, but longer term they should be fine because of how the cap works.

I don't disagree that Ilgaukus is not a top center, but how many top centers are there in the NBA?  5? 

[HoopsMalone]

It's not a "I told you so post".  Riley is a smart guy and so are the players on that team.  They will do fine, they probably will not win it this year, may not even finish in the top 3 in the East, but longer term they should be fine because of how the cap works.

I don't disagree that Ilgaukus is not a top center, but how many top centers are there in the NBA?  5? 

We probably do agree.  Riley is doing a good job.  When Bosh and Wade signed, he had a choice between taking the safe route and signing Brendan Haywood and Raymond, Felton, developing Beasley, and maybe adding Kyle Korver or something.  That is a safe team that has a high chance of winning one ring.  Instead, he chose James, which means it might not work, they could have injuries, and may have weaknesses defensively at center and PG, but it gives them the chance to win 3-5 titles, rather than one.  I think he made the right choice as you can't pass on James.   No one will blame him if they don't win one.  You have to go for the dynasty. 

I think the Heat will get a top 3 record in the East and most likel number 1.  What affects the Heat is how stacked their division within the East.  The winners of each division get the top 3 seeds which favors Boston who does not have much to contend with and Chicago who I think will edge out Milwaukee.  So, that leaves the Heat, Magic, and Hawks battling for the 1, 4, and 5 seed.  Then two of those teams will likely play each other in the second round, and then face Chicago or Boston in the third round.  Not an easy path to the Finals next year for anyone in the East.  If Atlanta really adds Shaq, they are a dangerous team.  So much talent there, but they have not been able to put it together.

Finding a top center in the NBA is just as tough as it is for Buzz to find one at Marquette.  I mean, $5 million per year for Brad Miller?  The talent is so rare.  I guess the top centers are Howard, Bynum if healthy, Pau who usually plays the 5, Yao when healthy and Duncan (who is now basically the 5) and then there is a drop off to guys like Bogut, Shaq, Noah, Nene, Brendan Haywood, Tyson Chandler, and those types of guys who give you nice production but aren't exactly game changers on both ends of the floor. 

Dallas did a nice job of adding two nice 5 men in Chandler and Haywood.  It's also pretty crazy that the Lakers have two top 5 centers probably as Bynum is pretty solid when he is healthy. Bynum might be debatable as a top center, but look at what Bynum was giving the Lakers earlier in the season as a third or fourth option-  http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2748

[brewcity77]

I'd say Bogut classes as a top center. Granted, he averages a couple points less, but his rebound and block numbers are favorable stacked up against Gasol, Duncan, and Yao. Of course Howard is the cream of the crop, but after him, I think Bogut is top five.

But regardless, on topic, I still look at the Heat as the Big Three and scrubs. Miller is a fine signing, but not a stud. Ilgauskus' numbers are dropping like a rock and he's already 35. Who are the other players there? Joel Anthony? Dexter Pittman? It's pretty obvious that other than the big three, Chalmers and Miller are the two best players. I'm not saying they can't improve with time, but this won't be a good team as far as having an actual rotation and bench for another 2 years or so.

[pbiflyer]

I'd say Bogut classes as a top center. Granted, he averages a couple points less, but his rebound and block numbers are favorable stacked up against Gasol, Duncan, and Yao. Of course Howard is the cream of the crop, but after him, I think Bogut is top five.

But regardless, on topic, I still look at the Heat as the Big Three and scrubs. Miller is a fine signing, but not a stud. Ilgauskus' numbers are dropping like a rock and he's already 35. Who are the other players there? Joel Anthony? Dexter Pittman? It's pretty obvious that other than the big three, Chalmers and Miller are the two best players. I'm not saying they can't improve with time, but this won't be a good team as far as having an actual rotation and bench for another 2 years or so.

I wouldn't call Udonis a scrub. He is a very solid player who took much less money to stay in Miami. Also Anthony is a young developing center. Same for the PG. Carlos Arroyo is a solid PG backup. With the addition of Magluire at center, Ilgauskus will not be a needed factor.

[HoopsMalone]

This is an interesting move.  The Heat bought out this guy's contract and then gave him the minimum.  A little fishy, but it looks like we have our first guy who left a good amount of money on the table:  http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5390603


If you have an owner willing to spend, this could be a way to get around the salary cap.  Buy out a guy, shake his hand with a wink, and re-sign him to the minimum.  I guess it depends how much the buy out counts against the salary cap, if at all.  It could be a good way to get guys out of long term deals though.

[willie warrior]

Several have posted here, calling it the Big Three and scrubs and calling some of the other signees stiffs.

Naturally with getting the big 3, there will not be much opportunity to attract more all stars right now with the salary cap.

Haslem and Miller are about 10 year vets who will fill in off the bench and do a good job. Ilgauskas has been in the league aboot 12 years and has a career average of about 14ppg and 8 rebounds. he is a two time all star, so he is not a stiff.

With Wade, James and Bosh supplying about 80% of the horse/fire power, the Heat only need role players, and are landing more than adequate ones.