DWade and Team Trinity

[Pakuni]

Why is it a negative that Lebron doesn't want to be like Kobe and MJ?

Listen to what you are saying.  Kobe couldn't wait to get rid of Shaq so he could be the man.  This is a positive trait?

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

I'm not discussing these as positive/negative traits as human beings, but rather as elite athletes. The truly elite are the guys who want, maybe even who need, to be The Man and crush everyone who stands between them and a title. As has been said by others far more eloquent than I these past couple days, if presented the choice, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant (or Bill Russell, for that matter) wouldn't have wanted to win a title with Dwyane Wade, they would have wanted to beat Dwyane Wade for a title.
Right or wrong, this is how we separate the great players from the legendary players.

As for the sharing thing, yes, it's a negative as far as LeBron's legacy goes. He'll now forever be known as the guy who chose to path of least resistance to a championship - presuming they eventually win one -and was great enough to carry a team to one on his own.

[MUSF]

if presented the choice, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant (or Bill Russell, for that matter) wouldn't have wanted to win a title with Dwyane Wade, they would have wanted to beat Dwyane Wade for a title.
Right or wrong, this is how we separate the great players from the legendary players.

What about Magic or Duncan?  Why is it always a comparison to MJ and Kobe.

I think Magic is every bit as great as Kobe and he didn't have to be a selfish dick to prove his greatness.  Why do you need to win without other great players to prove your own greatness?  It's a team game. 

Jordan ruined our perception of greatness in bball.  It was always about MJ and his ability to carry a team, win the game by himself, and sell more shoes and sports drinks than anyone.  Now every young basketball player grows up wanting to be like Mike, which essentially translates to being bigger than the team or anyone else around you.  These criticisms of Lebron not being a true competitor only reinforce this phenomenon.

I will concede that Lebron probably brought a lot of this on himself with the whole "chosen one" and "king James" nonsense.  However, I think a lot of that was him trying to live up to people's expectation.  Afterall, that's how we measure greatness in basketball now, so he had to be the man.

[Pakuni]

What about Magic or Duncan?  Why is it always a comparison to MJ and Kobe.

I think Magic is every bit as great as Kobe and he didn't have to be a selfish dick to prove his greatness.  Why do you need to win without other great players to prove your own greatness?  It's a team game. 

Jordan ruined our perception of greatness in bball.  It was always about MJ and his ability to carry a team, win the game by himself, and sell more shoes and sports drinks than anyone.  Now every young basketball player grows up wanting to be like Mike, which essentially translates to being bigger than the team or anyone else around you.  These criticisms of Lebron not being a true competitor only reinforce this phenomenon.

I will concede that Lebron probably brought a lot of this on himself with the whole "chosen one" and "king James" nonsense.  However, I think a lot of that was him trying to live up to people's expectation.  Afterall, that's how we measure greatness in basketball now, so he had to be the man.

I think, perhaps, some mistake Magic's ability to pass and create for teammates as evidence of deference or self-sacrifice. Magic was every bit The Man/Alpha Dog as Jordan, though his unique skill set allowed him to do it in a different manner. He took fewer shots, but dominated the ball and offensive flow just as much and, like Jordan and Kobe, everything ran through him. When games were on the line it was him, not Worthy, Scott or Jabbar, being set up to take the final shot.

On the other hand, LeBron for all intents is going to Miami to defer to Wade and - while not not exactly playing second fiddle - he will not be the dominant figure on the court.
Maybe he's OK with that, and I'm not suggesting that somehow makes him a lesser person. But when all's said and done, I suspect those who follow the baksetball - by design the most individualistic of all team sports - will remember him as the guy who chose to go after his titles the easy way.

[HoopsMalone]

All the greats have other greats around them.  The only difference is that in James' situation, he appears to have waived the white flag. 

For MJ, having Pippen develop alongside him is different than him signing with Boston so he could play with Larry.

For Magic, it is different that Kareem was there and Worthy developed alongside him.  He would have come off the same way if he had signed with the Sixers to joing Dr. J and Moses Malone.

It's like admitting you cannot lead a team.  You don't have to lead bums around.  James could have signed with Chicago and had DRose develop next to him or signed with the Clippers and had Blake Griffin develop with him.  Miami, San Antonio, and LA Lakers are the only spots he comes off bad going to.  And bad is relative.  He is in a good spot.  That team is going to be great.  Its a nice spot to win a title.

[AZWarrior]

I don't think people are faulting him for wanting to play with Wade, but for feeling that he needs Wade (and Bosh) in order to win a championship. As the SI writer put it, what LeBron did is the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1990 for the Pistons because he had a better chance of winning playing alongside Isiah Thomas. Jordan would much rather have stepped over Thomas (or anyone else) to win a title, than have to "join forces" with him to do it. Ditto for Kobe.
Does that make LeBron a bad guy? Not at all. But it shows he lacks the competitive will of the great ones.

Early in Jordan's career, he was by far the best player on a mediocre team.  He'd score 60+ points in a playoff game, but the Bulls would lose.  It wasn't until the Bulls got Pippen and Grant that the Bulls became a balanced team.  Jordan was still the star, obviously.  but star or not, he needed a supporting cast.  

So expecting James to carry the team "on his back" is unrealistic.  If James didn't feel that Cleveland's management would put the proper personnel around him, then its logical to go elsewhere.  I can't criticize him for that.

But he didn't need an ESPN special to make the announcement.  Jeeze.  

[MUSF]

I think, perhaps, some mistake Magic's ability to pass and create for teammates as evidence of deference or self-sacrifice. Magic was every bit The Man/Alpha Dog as Jordan, though his unique skill set allowed him to do it in a different manner. He took fewer shots, but dominated the ball and offensive flow just as much and, like Jordan and Kobe, everything ran through him. When games were on the line it was him, not Worthy, Scott or Jabbar, being set up to take the final shot.

On the other hand, LeBron for all intents is going to Miami to defer to Wade and - while not not exactly playing second fiddle - he will not be the dominant figure on the court.
Maybe he's OK with that, and I'm not suggesting that somehow makes him a lesser person. But when all's said and done, I suspect those who follow the baksetball - by design the most individualistic of all team sports - will remember him as the guy who chose to go after his titles the easy way.

Who gets the ball at crunch time and who dominates the ball are not as important as the media and fans make them out to be.  Again, the ghost of Jordan lingers.  Why does it have to be one guy?  Why would a players greatness be diminished simply because the last play of close games didn't always run through him?  Think of the options the Heat will have in those crunch time situations.  How would you like to be the opposing coach trying to set your defense up for that last possession?  

Lebron and Wade can be complimentary players without conceding any of their greatness to each other IF their egos don't get in the way.  I don't think Lebron is going to Miami to defer to Wade, as you suggest.  Some nights Lebron will be the dominant figure on the court and some nights it will be Wade.  The same was true with Kobe and Shaq in LA.  They were both great players and they had a great team.  Unfortunately, Shaq and Kobe couldn't handle sharing top billing.  We'll soon find out about Wade and Lebron.

[HoopsMalone]

Who gets the ball at crunch time and who dominates the ball are not as important as the media and fans make them out to be.  Again, the ghost of Jordan lingers.  Why does it have to be one guy?  Why would a players greatness be diminished simply because the last play of close games didn't always run through him?  Think of the options the Heat will have in those crunch time situations.  How would you like to be the opposing coach trying to set your defense up for that last possession?  

Lebron and Wade can be complimentary players without conceding any of their greatness to each other IF their egos don't get in the way.  I don't think Lebron is going to Miami to defer to Wade, as you suggest.  Some nights Lebron will be the dominant figure on the court and some nights it will be Wade.  The same was true with Kobe and Shaq in LA.  They were both great players and they had a great team.  Unfortunately, Shaq and Kobe couldn't handle sharing top billing.  We'll soon find out about Wade and Lebron.

I think they are going to be fine down there.  I think they will get to know each other, but lack of other pieces will cause them to lose to LA or Orlando or maybe Boston if they get hot.  Next year, after signing a nice midlevel piece, look out.  I don't think Wade or James has a problem sharing.

The issue that many of us are talking about is extremely mute.  Now, James could never beat Wade and James is not the best player in his generation.  Kobe and Wade are.  Marquette gets a player into the pantheon argument, as James is out.  There is nothing wrong at all being a Wilt/Dr. J type in my opinion.  James is gonna have a blast with his buddies and win.  I don't know if he cares that he never knocked off Wade on the way.

[MUSF]

I think they are going to be fine down there.  I think they will get to know each other, but lack of other pieces will cause them to lose to LA or Orlando or maybe Boston if they get hot.  Next year, after signing a nice midlevel piece, look out.  I don't think Wade or James has a problem sharing.

The issue that many of us are talking about is extremely mute.  Now, James could never beat Wade and James is not the best player in his generation.  Kobe and Wade are.  Marquette gets a player into the pantheon argument, as James is out.  There is nothing wrong at all being a Wilt/Dr. J type in my opinion.  James is gonna have a blast with his buddies and win.  I don't know if he cares that he never knocked off Wade on the way.

Wade and James still have a lot of basketball ahead of them.  I have a feeling both will still be in the argument for best player of their generation when all is said and done.

I still don't agree with the assessment that James has to beat Wade to truly be the King.  This isn't a greek tragedy, it's basketball.  Wade and James could end up contributing equally to multiple championships and James, because of his age, could continue to excel after Wade diminishes.  There are many ways that this could play out.

[avid1010]

It sounds like the Heat will also sign Mike Miller, Derek Fisher and resign Haslem.  That's two shooters and big guy that plays defense and rebounds.  Everyone was worried they wouldn't have room or money for anyone else....seems like that Riley guy knows what he's doing.

[AZWarrior]

....seems like that Riley guy knows what he's doing.

Yeah - I've heard he's been around the block a time or two.   

[MUSF]

It sounds like the Heat will also sign Mike Miller, Derek Fisher and resign Haslem.  That's two shooters and big guy that plays defense and rebounds.  Everyone was worried they wouldn't have room or money for anyone else....seems like that Riley guy knows what he's doing.

It will be interesting to see what moves get made.  They still seem to be lacking a banger down low.

[MarkCharles]

Easy... Lebron is not the best 25 year old ever.  Lebron went to the finals when the east was as soft as I have ever seen.  DWade was hurt that year (Bulls swept them out of the playoffs...) and the Pistons were aging and not the same team (that one OT game was sick by Lebron though).  Not knocking him, but he is just flat out not the best 25 year old ever...  Literally is flat out not.  I don't know what criteria you could possibly use to think that?

Shaq has an equal resume by 25.  Took a team to the Finals and got his behind swept like James did.

Magic's game 6 in Philly is something James has never done.

Jordan at age 25?  In the 1988-89 season, Jordan averaged 32.5haha only put numbers beyond a decimal when convenient, huh? points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists.  Lebron was 29.7, 7.3, and 8.6.  The season before that he average 37.5 ppgactually 35.0.  I believe that was the year of "the shot" as a series clincher on the road. Jordan had already set the record for most points in a playoff game too.  Jordan also had the game winner in a college final and had that under his belt.  No one thought Jordan's teammates were any good either.  Jordan is statistically better and also had a developing team around him back then. He was losing to the Celtics and the Pistons of old.  Jordan was a Pippen migraine away from winning it in his 6th season too. 

If you like Lebron, fine.  If you think he CAN be in the top 5 ever, fine.  Maybe he can.  But Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Wade are all current players ahead of him.  Let alone the other players that came before him. 

Before the Decision, people were not necessarily Lebron haters.  People are just saying easy on the comparisons.  He has not done anything to deserve that.  He is a top 5 player in the NBA right now, but easy on the best 25 year old ever type of thing.  I think Dr. J is a nice comparison personally.  Puts up tons of stats, people always think he is going to do it, but could not win that title until he had Moses Malone.  Dr. J was sweet though and is not a bad guy to be compared to.

My criteria: Mainly, admittedly, the eyeball test. I am trying to be patient with LeBron before I start knocking him for not winning a title. He does things almost nightly that Jordan, or anybody, could never do. And I am using skills/talent, not resumes. Of course, if we were using resumes, hes not even in the top 10 25y/os. I admit that I am extrapolating with his abilities and assuming he will continue to develop, but I don't think I am unfounded in that regard. As a casual fan of LeBron, I want him to develop that MJ killer instinct. My guess is it will come, but I am not so sure. And I agree that this Miami team isn't necessarily the best place to develop it. (I assure you I'm no groupie. I was really disappointed in him against the Celtics. I just like debating the NBA, and I think LeBron gets a bad wrap. He just really entertains me.)

Shaq at 25? No way. Not even close. Didn't take over the game in all facets like Lebron. He was simply a physical specimen who was nowhere near the player he became,  just dominating because of his bulk. And he had Penny, who was a great player for a flash of years. Haha you knock Lebron for making the finals when DWade was injured, but forget to mention that Shaq made it when Jordan was retired.

Magic? Ok he had a much better titles resume than Lebron, but he was literally put into the best situation a young player ever inherited. LeBron woud EASILY have multiple rings playing with Kareem near his prime, Worthy, etc. And one game 6 does not make him better. LeBron has had plenty of absurd games.

I admit, maybe I was a bit premature in saying he was better than Jordan at the age. But there is hardly any difference in those stats, and even less when you consider LeBron plays in a much, much slower era. There were a lot more shots/game back then. And he had a better supporting cast, but also was getting knocked out yearly in the playoffs. You no one thought Scottie Pippen was good? Hm, that sounds funny to me....He was a burgeoning all-star. If you want to compare great moments like the Elo shot, thats fine. Lebron has some pretty magical moments too--25 straight in the 4th vs Detroit, fadeaway three vs Orlando, etc.

[MarkCharles]

Why is it a negative that Lebron doesn't want to be like Kobe and MJ?

Listen to what you are saying.  Kobe couldn't wait to get rid of Shaq so he could be the man.  This is a positive trait?

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

Exactly. Why can't he have a different career path, but still end up in the same discussion. Be open-minded, people.

[Pakuni]

Who gets the ball at crunch time and who dominates the ball are not as important as the media and fans make them out to be.  Again, the ghost of Jordan lingers.  Why does it have to be one guy?  Why would a players greatness be diminished simply because the last play of close games didn't always run through him?  

Serious question?
OK, serious answer: because that's how we, as sports fans, define greatness. The great ones not only get the ball in their hands at the end of games, they demand the ball in their hands at the end of games ansd then they show you why. Jordan wasn't great just because he scored a lot, but also because of when he scored. Same with Kobe.

There's nothing wrong with there being two guys (though dollars to doughnuts there won't be two guys in Miami), but I disagree that it won't diminish anyone's greatness. Right or wrong, fair or not, that's just not the way the vast majority of basketball fans view it.
Look at the reaction to LeBron's signing. He's being ripped by nealry everyone because of the perception he's taking the path of least resistance to a title and is willing to cede his standing as THE guy.
That just never happens except when a guy is on the wrong side of 30 and desperate for a championship. doing it in your prime, at the height of your powers, is unheard of.

Lebron and Wade can be complimentary players without conceding any of their greatness to each other IF their egos don't get in the way.  I don't think Lebron is going to Miami to defer to Wade, as you suggest.  Some nights Lebron will be the dominant figure on the court and some nights it will be Wade.  The same was true with Kobe and Shaq in LA.  They were both great players and they had a great team.  Unfortunately, Shaq and Kobe couldn't handle sharing top billing.  We'll soon find out about Wade and Lebron.

Agree to disagree, I guess. No one considered a "complementary player" will ever go down as one of the GOATs, IMO.  
Shaq and Kobe couldn't share top billing because their competitiveness - and the massive egos that usually come along with it - wouldn't allow it. Especially from Kobe's end. It may seem like a bad thing, but it's the same thing - the outsized competitiveness, the desire to be the best, the need to constantly prove onself, the ego - that makes the great ones tick.
LeBron, despite his enormous physical gifts, doesn't have the assassin-like mentality of the greats.

[MarkCharles]

I'm not convinced James-Williams-Jamison is much (if any) of a lesser group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, and certainly better than Billups-Hamilton-Wallace. Antwan Jamison is no superstar, but he's been a consistent 20-8 guy throughout his career. I'll put it this way: the 2011 Caves with LeBron would have been as much better team, at least on paper, than the 2007 Cavs that made the Finals.

To compare Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison to Parker and Ginobili is absolutely ridiculous. Tony Parker and Manu are each so much better than Mo. By a mile.  And Antawn Jamison might have been a solid #3 option 5 years ago, but he is 34 and contributed absolutely nothing in the playoffs. He was a shell of his former 20 and 8 self. Did you watch their games? Not only did he look slow, old, and overmatched, but he completely lost his shot. And Mo has never stepped up in a big game in his life. Not a championship #2 and #3 by any means. Manu and TP each singlehandedly took over and won tons of playoff games for the Spurs. Both are big-gamers. That was literally the perfect cast for Duncan.

And the Pistons team was built totally differently. 5 really good players instead of built around 1 or2 great ones. A different person won the game for them every night. Lebron doesn't have that luxury. Plus, all three of the Pistons you mentioned were significantly better during their run than Mo or Jamison was this year. Its not even close.

[pbiflyer]

It will be interesting to see what moves get made.  They still seem to be lacking a banger down low.

They still could sign Joel Anthony and/or Jamale McClure. Not world class centers, but serviceable. I bet Haslem ends up playing center. They did that with Brian Grant a few years ago. Shortened his career though.

[Pakuni]

To compare Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison to Parker and Ginobili is absolutely ridiculous. Tony Parker and Manu are each so much better than Mo. By a mile.

Well then, it's a good thing I didn't do that.
What I said was James-Williams-Jamison were not much, if any worse of a group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili.
James is clearly the best player of the six and while Ginobili and Parker have an edge among the others, it's not so great that it blows away the edge James has over Duncan.

[MUSF]

Serious question?
OK, serious answer: because that's how we, as sports fans, define greatness. The great ones not only get the ball in their hands at the end of games, they demand the ball in their hands at the end of games ansd then they show you why. Jordan wasn't great just because he scored a lot, but also because of when he scored. Same with Kobe.

There's nothing wrong with there being two guys (though dollars to doughnuts there won't be two guys in Miami), but I disagree that it won't diminish anyone's greatness. Right or wrong, fair or not, that's just not the way the vast majority of basketball fans view it.
Look at the reaction to LeBron's signing. He's being ripped by nealry everyone because of the perception he's taking the path of least resistance to a title and is willing to cede his standing as THE guy.
That just never happens except when a guy is on the wrong side of 30 and desperate for a championship. doing it in your prime, at the height of your powers, is unheard of.

Agree to disagree, I guess. No one considered a "complementary player" will ever go down as one of the GOATs, IMO.  
Shaq and Kobe couldn't share top billing because their competitiveness - and the massive egos that usually come along with it - wouldn't allow it. Especially from Kobe's end. It may seem like a bad thing, but it's the same thing - the outsized competitiveness, the desire to be the best, the need to constantly prove onself, the ego - that makes the great ones tick.
LeBron, despite his enormous physical gifts, doesn't have the assassin-like mentality of the greats.

I appreciate your serious answer and I agree that this is how today's basketball fans define greatness.  I'm just not sure that is how we should define greatness.  I also think this was essentially created by Jordan's unique greatness.  This is the reason he's being ripped in the media.  They have adopted Jordan's new definition of greatness and because most in the media rarely produce an original thought.  Jordan's model has been validated by Kobe but that doesn't make it the only way to the top of the mountain.

Jordan and Kobe had to be the man on their team and in the entire league, right or wrong.  Just because LeBron is willing to join forces with Wade doesn't necessarily mean he is less competitive or doesn't have the assassin-like mentality of the greats.  It could mean that he is simply less insecure than Kobe and MJ and doesn't think the success or abiltiy of his opponents and teamates detracts from his own.

 IF EGOS DON'T GET IN THE WAY, LeBron will take over games when he needs to and defer to Wade when it benefits the team.  He will get his stats and continue to amaze us with his physical ability.  He could win some titles and some MVPs.  If these things happen, I would bet that his name will be mentioned with MJ, Kobe, Russell, Magic, et. al.  His path to the top of the mountain will just look a lot different that MJ and Kobe's

[HoopsMalone]

My criteria: Mainly, admittedly, the eyeball test. I am trying to be patient with LeBron before I start knocking him for not winning a title. He does things almost nightly that Jordan, or anybody, could never do. And I am using skills/talent, not resumes. Of course, if we were using resumes, hes not even in the top 10 25y/os. I admit that I am extrapolating with his abilities and assuming he will continue to develop, but I don't think I am unfounded in that regard. As a casual fan of LeBron, I want him to develop that MJ killer instinct. My guess is it will come, but I am not so sure. And I agree that this Miami team isn't necessarily the best place to develop it. (I assure you I'm no groupie. I was really disappointed in him against the Celtics. I just like debating the NBA, and I think LeBron gets a bad wrap. He just really entertains me.)

Shaq at 25? No way. Not even close. Didn't take over the game in all facets like Lebron. He was simply a physical specimen who was nowhere near the player he became,  just dominating because of his bulk. And he had Penny, who was a great player for a flash of years. Haha you knock Lebron for making the finals when DWade was injured, but forget to mention that Shaq made it when Jordan was retired.

Magic? Ok he had a much better titles resume than Lebron, but he was literally put into the best situation a young player ever inherited. LeBron woud EASILY have multiple rings playing with Kareem near his prime, Worthy, etc. And one game 6 does not make him better. LeBron has had plenty of absurd games.

I admit, maybe I was a bit premature in saying he was better than Jordan at the age. But there is hardly any difference in those stats, and even less when you consider LeBron plays in a much, much slower era. There were a lot more shots/game back then. And he had a better supporting cast, but also was getting knocked out yearly in the playoffs. You no one thought Scottie Pippen was good? Hm, that sounds funny to me....He was a burgeoning all-star. If you want to compare great moments like the Elo shot, thats fine. Lebron has some pretty magical moments too--25 straight in the 4th vs Detroit, fadeaway three vs Orlando, etc.

The eyeball test is subjective, but I agree he has had some great athletic plays. 

Shaq did beat MJ's Bulls on the way to the Finals actually.  And the East has been pretty soft this last decade compared to the 1990s.  Shaq's team in Orlando beat a very tough Indiana team too in 7 games.  Shaq's time in Orlando is probably a good comparison to Lebron's time in Cleveland.  Young phenoms winning a ton of games.  Shaq was a huge difference maker.

And everyone questioned the talent around Jordan until they got tough in 1991 and finally got it done.  Pippen made the all-star team in 1990, but then had the migraine headache and did not make it back the next year.  Had Pippen been able to step up and play through that migraine headach in Game 7, the Bulls might have been able to go on and win their first one in 1990.  But MJ stuck with the team and they grew up together.  Pippen was projecting to have a Mo Williams type path until that 1991 playoff run where he really got tough against Detroit and then followed that by covering Johnson in the Finals.  I think Lebron should have comitted to the Cavs so that they could have developed a team around him rather than try to sign over the hill free agents to play around him.  The Cavs might be maturing into a great now, and Lebron could have stayed. 

I'm not hating on Lebron like people might think I am.  He is deservedly an All-NBA player.  He and Melo are the best SFs in the league, and I would say James beats Melo.  He and Kobe are the best two players.  But I just think people got sucked into this "Witness" thing and King James stuff.  Let the guy prove himself.  I think, by looking at how he plays and how he has handled himself in the playoffs that he is more of a Dr. J type of path.  That is just me observing him and not buying into the Witness stuff.  Each player is his own path, and we have never seen anything like this so we will see how it turns out.  I'm just gonna embrace him as Dr. J and there is nothing wrong with that.  Dr. J was amazing and won titles.

[HoopsMalone]

Well then, it's a good thing I didn't do that.
What I said was James-Williams-Jamison were not much, if any worse of a group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili.
James is clearly the best player of the six and while Ginobili and Parker have an edge among the others, it's not so great that it blows away the edge James has over Duncan.

+1

One thing that is hard to understand is how a guy could leave the first place team.  Mike Miller could have signed the mid-level there, Hickson would have developed, Byron Scott could have changed the strategy, and Lebron could have matured another year.  The Cavs are not a juggernaut team necessarily, but a nice mid-level signing and Hickson getting better, maybe they could have been. 

[MarkCharles]

+1

One thing that is hard to understand is how a guy could leave the first place team.  Mike Miller could have signed the mid-level there, Hickson would have developed, Byron Scott could have changed the strategy, and Lebron could have matured another year.  The Cavs are not a juggernaut team necessarily, but a nice mid-level signing and Hickson getting better, maybe they could have been. 

It seems like this attitude, that LeBron needs to "develop" a team, unfairly puts a burden on him to build a team. Thats not his job. His job is to win games with the players around him, and I believe he did a decent job of that considering the talent around him. I think the major problem with this Cavs team is that, with Lebron not committed long-term, the front office had to adopt a win-now strategy instead of trying to build the best roster for the next decade. It was a tough situation for the front office, but they put all their eggs in one basket each year, and it obviously didn't work out. Their roster was inflexible and, imho, not as close to winning a title as their regular season record would indicate. I don't blame Lebron one bit for not staying with Cle. His goals are clearly to be an all-time great, and he couldn't afford to waste any more years in his rare career waiting for guys like JJ Hickson to become a championship level player. Hickson is certainly not the answer Lebron's problems, and Mike Miller wasn't pushing them over the top either. They needed a true #2 option. Lebron didn't owe Cleveland anything more than he gave them, but Cleveland didn't deserve the way he has acted in the last couple days. But other than "the Decision", what has Lebron ever done wrong to Cleveland? Their Fans and front office are acting like scorned children.

I think comparing Mo Williams to a young Pippen is a bit off. Pippen was a 19.3/game scorer by his 3rd year, whereas Mo is a solid guy who has clearly peaked, and never seems to step up in big playoff games. He was never as good as Pippen was by his 3rd year, and Pippen was great for the next decade. Plus, I think MJ staying with CHI was about his massive ego and proving himself, something James, for better or worse, seems less concerned with.

And I disagree with the level of the east the last few years compared to the '90s. This Celtics team is better than the Pacers or Knicks of that era were. You're right, I forgot that O'neal got to the finals in MJ's return year. I guess my view of the east of that era was that it was dull, rough, and not very talented.

You say Shaq in Orl compares to Lebron's in Cle, and I agree. But does the fact that Shaq had to leave his "developing" roster to join an absolutely stacked LA squad to get his rings diminish his accoplishments? I don't think it does. If Lebron wins titles playing as well as Shaq did with LA, he shouldn't be downgraded simply because he played with a loaded squad. As you say, let him prove himself.

[GB Warrior]

With what money? He made $7 million last year, and there's a lockout coming next summer.

Haslem is believed to be considering re-signing with the team. They can't offer him as much, and he knows it, but Miami is where is his home has been his entire career. I doubt that'll change.

[HoopsMalone]

And I disagree with the level of the east the last few years compared to the '90s. This Celtics team is better than the Pacers or Knicks of that era were. You're right, I forgot that O'neal got to the finals in MJ's return year. I guess my view of the east of that era was that it was dull, rough, and not very talented.

You say Shaq in Orl compares to Lebron's in Cle, and I agree. But does the fact that Shaq had to leave his "developing" roster to join an absolutely stacked LA squad to get his rings diminish his accoplishments? I don't think it does. If Lebron wins titles playing as well as Shaq did with LA, he shouldn't be downgraded simply because he played with a loaded squad. As you say, let him prove himself.

That is interesting that you think the east was not good in the 1990s but was better in this past decade.  The east with teams like New Jersey and Philadelphia winning it was one of the weakest I have ever seen.  The NBA Finals have been snoozers for the most part this decade because the east was so weak.  The 1990s had strong teams like the Knicks, Pacers, Magic, and Heat.  All four of those teams would have dominated this decade in the east.  It was sorry basketball. 

LA was not at all stacked when Shaq went there.  A team developed around him as Fisher and Kobe came up, Fox and Horry came later, and Phil put it all together with a few vets like Ron Harper and Glenn Rice.  I was shocked back then that Shaq wanted to leave that Orlando team.  Who knows what was happening internally then though, but that was a strong team in Orlando to leave.  But Shaq did not go and sign with the Houston Rockets.  He went to another team and had it all came together as players matured around him.  It is not the same move that Lebron is making.  Shaq going to Houston and having a party calling him and Hakeem the twin towers would be what Lebron is doing. 

And what you said about what Lebron's non-committal did to the Cavs management is exactly what I have been saying.  It is not Lebron's job, true, but it was not a good situation with the Cavs because of the uncertainty in the future.  It is part of the business.  He does not need to literally build a team, but the greats make others better.  There was talent there and it just makes it such a different situation for him to leave the first place team.  I think leaving Cleveland is understandable though.  This is sports in the new millenium.  Free agency is part of the game.  I think fans love analyzing the general manager's strategies and free agency helps the game overall. 

I don't see why people are mad that Lebron is getting "downgraded."  He is not.  He is exactly who he is and some of us have seen that for a while.  He is not what Nike wishes he was when he signed with them at 18.  People can wish it all they want.  Joining Wade is a call for "help" no matter which way you spin it.  None of the pantheon players have every chosen this kind of help.  The fact that it was 100% his choice to ride the coattails of another player is big for people who appreciate NBA history.  The $100 million dollar contracts which the media calls a paycut, the party they had before even playing a game, the decision, everything.  It is rubbing people the wrong way.  And it does not matter to James, probably, because it is who he is.  We should appreciate him as hoops fans and not give him expectations for something that he is not. 

[MarkCharles]

That is interesting that you think the east was not good in the 1990s but was better in this past decade.  The east with teams like New Jersey and Philadelphia winning it was one of the weakest I have ever seen.  The NBA Finals have been snoozers for the most part this decade because the east was so weak.  The 1990s had strong teams like the Knicks, Pacers, Magic, and Heat.  All four of those teams would have dominated this decade in the east.  It was sorry basketball. 

LA was not at all stacked when Shaq went there.  A team developed around him as Fisher and Kobe came up, Fox and Horry came later, and Phil put it all together with a few vets like Ron Harper and Glenn Rice.  I was shocked back then that Shaq wanted to leave that Orlando team.  Who knows what was happening internally then though, but that was a strong team in Orlando to leave.  But Shaq did not go and sign with the Houston Rockets.  He went to another team and had it all came together as players matured around him.  It is not the same move that Lebron is making.  Shaq going to Houston and having a party calling him and Hakeem the twin towers would be what Lebron is doing. 

And what you said about what Lebron's non-committal did to the Cavs management is exactly what I have been saying.  It is not Lebron's job, true, but it was not a good situation with the Cavs because of the uncertainty in the future.  It is part of the business.  He does not need to literally build a team, but the greats make others better.  There was talent there and it just makes it such a different situation for him to leave the first place team.  I think leaving Cleveland is understandable though.  This is sports in the new millenium.  Free agency is part of the game.  I think fans love analyzing the general manager's strategies and free agency helps the game overall. 

I don't see why people are mad that Lebron is getting "downgraded."  He is not.  He is exactly who he is and some of us have seen that for a while.  He is not what Nike wishes he was when he signed with them at 18.  People can wish it all they want.  Joining Wade is a call for "help" no matter which way you spin it.  None of the pantheon players have every chosen this kind of help.  The fact that it was 100% his choice to ride the coattails of another player is big for people who appreciate NBA history.  The $100 million dollar contracts which the media calls a paycut, the party they had before even playing a game, the decision, everything.  It is rubbing people the wrong way.  And it does not matter to James, probably, because it is who he is.  We should appreciate him as hoops fans and not give him expectations for something that he is not. 

We are talking about the easts that Lebron and Jordan each faced, so obviously I am not talking about early 2000s east, only the last 4-5 years. In that time, he went up against a great Celtics team that is way better than Indiana, Miami, or NY were in the 90's. I would also put Orlando as an equal of any of those teams. You might disagree, but for me that was one of the darkest eras of NBA basketball, Jordan and all. Ugly, negative basketball. The early 2000s were absolutely horrible, but power has been shifting back to the east and there is no easy path to the finals like MJ often had.  
Who do you pick, 7 game series---2008 Boston or 1999 Knicks? I say Celtics, hands down.

How can you honestly say that Indiana would dominate this east??? What were the matchups that team presented to opponents that would allow them to dominate Orl, Bos, Cle? Please defend that. Any team led by Reggie Miller is severely limited in any greatness discussion (and I'm a big Reggie fan). 08 Celtics or 09 Magic were much stronger teams. And if the east was so strong in the 1990s, why didn't any of them ever win a title or challenge MJ? (besides Orl once when Jordan was still rusty from hitting ground balls) I don't think theres any way any of those teams could've beaten Kobe's 08 Lakers. Do you?

Whether the Lakers were stacked the year before Shaq arrived is besides the point-the entire time he was there they were loaded, as Kobe, Fisher, and Shaq all arrived the same offseason.  Its not like Shaq would have pledged his entire career to the Lakers, promising to stay as the patiently developed. I'm sure he went there fully expecting them to fill the roster around him. If things didn't work out, he wouldv'e forced his way out.

You say the Cavs had talent in place--where?
PG-Mo Williams-solid guy, never steps up much when needed most, wildly inconsistent. Declining as he ages. At best, #3 option.
SG-Delonte West-total headcase, again insanely inconsistent, really not all that good even on a good night.
PF-Jamison-shell of his former self, totally lost his shot, got dominated down low by Boston
C-Shaq-Added absolutely nothing to the roster. Varejao I like but hes not a top player.

Hickson looks like he could be something, but he is years away from being a major contributor, and I don't think his upside is much more than 15 and 8/game. This group wasn't going to win. You seem to downgrade Lebron because he left what he saw was a losing cause. I actually applaud him for making what was no doubt a very hard, emotional decision for him.

[HoopsMalone]

We are talking about the easts that Lebron and Jordan each faced, so obviously I am not talking about early 2000s east, only the last 4-5 years. In that time, he went up against a great Celtics team that is way better than Indiana, Miami, or NY were in the 90's. I would also put Orlando as an equal of any of those teams. You might disagree, but for me that was one of the darkest eras of NBA basketball, Jordan and all. Ugly, negative basketball. The early 2000s were absolutely horrible, but power has been shifting back to the east and there is no easy path to the finals like MJ often had.  
Who do you pick, 7 game series---2008 Boston or 1999 Knicks? I say Celtics, hands down.

How can you honestly say that Indiana would dominate this east??? What were the matchups that team presented to opponents that would allow them to dominate Orl, Bos, Cle? Please defend that. Any team led by Reggie Miller is severely limited in any greatness discussion (and I'm a big Reggie fan). 08 Celtics or 09 Magic were much stronger teams. And if the east was so strong in the 1990s, why didn't any of them ever win a title or challenge MJ? (besides Orl once when Jordan was still rusty from hitting ground balls) I don't think theres any way any of those teams could've beaten Kobe's 08 Lakers. Do you?

Whether the Lakers were stacked the year before Shaq arrived is besides the point-the entire time he was there they were loaded, as Kobe, Fisher, and Shaq all arrived the same offseason.  Its not like Shaq would have pledged his entire career to the Lakers, promising to stay as the patiently developed. I'm sure he went there fully expecting them to fill the roster around him. If things didn't work out, he wouldv'e forced his way out.

You say the Cavs had talent in place--where?
PG-Mo Williams-solid guy, never steps up much when needed most, wildly inconsistent. Declining as he ages. At best, #3 option.
SG-Delonte West-total headcase, again insanely inconsistent, really not all that good even on a good night.
PF-Jamison-shell of his former self, totally lost his shot, got dominated down low by Boston
C-Shaq-Added absolutely nothing to the roster. Varejao I like but hes not a top player.

Hickson looks like he could be something, but he is years away from being a major contributor, and I don't think his upside is much more than 15 and 8/game. This group wasn't going to win. You seem to downgrade Lebron because he left what he saw was a losing cause. I actually applaud him for making what was no doubt a very hard, emotional decision for him.

The downgrade is not because he left the Cavs, it is that he went to the Heat.  The Spurs, Lakers, or Celtics would have been the same.  I have no interest in knocking James.  I am just calling it as it is.  I am not crowning him the King at age 18 so it creates an assumption of greatness.  There is no burden on me to prove that James isn't the King.  The burden is on people who say he is.  He is one of the best athletes to ever play the game and he has above average talent.  He has a high IQ.  His freak athleticism allows him to dominate.  He is one of the best players in the league.  Cleveland was a good club.  No one can say they overachieved by getting to the second round.  Most would say that they underachieved, especially this year. 

We brought up how good the east was in the context of James getting to the NBA Finals.  That was probably the easiest path to the finals that any team will get short of the years the Nets made the finals earlier in the decade.  And yes, I do think those Knicks, Heat, and Pacers teams would be very competitive late in this decade because of their defense.  The defensive 3 seconds changes some stuff, but those teams could play, and just had a dynasty that they could not beat.