monterale clark "the truth"

[Lennys Tap]

You fixed nothing--in fact, it was more accurate before.  You actually made it worse.

Your change to the second statement presumes guilt.  What Clark admitted to was not necessarily a crime.  And he may even have been coerced into making the statement. Nothing has been proven.

If the Duke case has shown us anything, we can't just take the accusers, police or prosecutors word. 

In this country we presume innocence until proven guilty.  Thats why we hold trials.  Lets wait until then before making snarky comments that declare Clark guilty.

Well said.

[ListerineSting]

Let me say this. I am a man of color and I have been stopped by cops while driving in Plano, San Angelo, Lubbock, and Wichita Falls, Texas. In every case I had broken no rules. In every case I was asked to exit my vehicle. In every case the cop searched my vehicle. My crime? Being a non-white guy driving a late model European sports car on their virginal lily white streets. A man of color is suspect at first sight. The cop might not know the crime but a man's complexion is reason enough. If you are white you cannot fathom what this feels like. In Plano, I was driving to the local Tom Thumb to get some steak sauce and mangos. In Lubbock? I was driving back to my five star hotel. Is Monterale guilty of anything? I do not know nor will I judge as, like every one else here, we really do not know what transpired. He compromised himself by putting himself in a questionable situation. For you white dudes, there is something called the Brother's Handbook. It instructs me not to stop for lunch in some small east Texas towns because my car and Hugo Boss suit will attract unwanted attention. It instructs me that when in Boston, MA to not take an attractive female client to dinner to discuss business as someone will make an ugly comment for our mutual benefit. The fact that a cop has written a report on Mr Clark may or may not have any basis in reality. There are two criminal codes in this nation one is white and the other is dark. If your ancestors came from some land other than Europe you are subject to the latter, especially when a situation involves a caucasian female.

[T-Bone]

Let me say this. I am a man of color and I have been stopped by cops while driving in Plano, San Angelo,
... (for succinctness, not content)

Well stated.  
What transpires with Montrale is his business, and hopefully fair justice is measured for him and the other individuals involved no matter what.  The fact that racism exists will be a fact of society for eternity.  Unfortunate, but recognition and making efforts to correct the situation (futile as they may seem at times) is all anyone can do.  
Regardless I hope that the young man can take this opportunity to learn from this.  Supposing the lesson is to not put himself in potentially damaging situations.  

[4everwarriors]

Didn't know Lubbock had a 5 star hotel. Learn something every day.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let me say this. I am a man of color and I have been stopped by cops while driving in Plano, San Angelo, Lubbock, and Wichita Falls, Texas. In every case I had broken no rules. In every case I was asked to exit my vehicle. In every case the cop searched my vehicle. My crime? Being a non-white guy driving a late model European sports car on their virginal lily white streets. A man of color is suspect at first sight. The cop might not know the crime but a man's complexion is reason enough. If you are white you cannot fathom what this feels like. In Plano, I was driving to the local Tom Thumb to get some steak sauce and mangos. In Lubbock? I was driving back to my five star hotel.

Is this supposed to be in teal?  I know you've been a "long time reader" but only been posting since today....when using sarcasm around here we use teal.  It's a weird thing, but it's been adopted.

You have really driven that state of Texas (seems like all of it) in that Euro sports car.  Five star hotel in Lubbock?  There are none, by the way. 


Do I believe that some people get pulled over more often than others in parts of the country?  Yes, I do.  But at the rate you're going, you seem to have some of the worst luck in America.  Got those windows tinted or something?  Have a bumper sticker that says Don't Tase Me Bro? 

[haymaker]

Is this supposed to be in teal?  I know you've been a "long time reader" but only been posting since today....when using sarcasm around here we use teal.  It's a weird thing, but it's been adopted.

You have really driven that state of Texas (seems like all of it) in that Euro sports car.  Five star hotel in Lubbock?  There are none, by the way. 


Do I believe that some people get pulled over more often than others in parts of the country?  Yes, I do.  But at the rate you're going, you seem to have some of the worst luck in America.  Got those windows tinted or something?  Have a bumper sticker that says Don't Tase Me Bro? 

Solid response.  The problem is, no one will ever know if ListerineSting is offering some valid details, or just regurgitating what he learned in UWM's Arts & Sciences.  The anonymity of the internet strikes again, and this thread can never be meaningful without the parties looking each other in the eyes and arguing face to face.

[muarmy81]

Let me say this. I am a man of color and I have been stopped by cops while driving in Plano, San Angelo, Lubbock, and Wichita Falls, Texas. In every case I had broken no rules. In every case I was asked to exit my vehicle. In every case the cop searched my vehicle. My crime? Being a non-white guy driving a late model European sports car on their virginal lily white streets. A man of color is suspect at first sight. The cop might not know the crime but a man's complexion is reason enough. If you are white you cannot fathom what this feels like. In Plano, I was driving to the local Tom Thumb to get some steak sauce and mangos. In Lubbock? I was driving back to my five star hotel. Is Monterale guilty of anything? I do not know nor will I judge as, like every one else here, we really do not know what transpired. He compromised himself by putting himself in a questionable situation. For you white dudes, there is something called the Brother's Handbook. It instructs me not to stop for lunch in some small east Texas towns because my car and Hugo Boss suit will attract unwanted attention. It instructs me that when in Boston, MA to not take an attractive female client to dinner to discuss business as someone will make an ugly comment for our mutual benefit. The fact that a cop has written a report on Mr Clark may or may not have any basis in reality. There are two criminal codes in this nation one is white and the other is dark. If your ancestors came from some land other than Europe you are subject to the latter, especially when a situation involves a caucasian female.

Was the black criminal code applied to the white Duke Lacrosse players when the black stripper accused them of rape?  What about the Connecticut Fire Fighters who were not promoted because not enought black fire fighters passed the required exam?  Whether you want to admit it or not we are a very sensitive culture now and people are going to claim discrimmination over stupid things because they were not able to accomplish something. (Promotion, personal success, getting into a college, etc)  An important thing to remember is that the majority of people who say or make racist comments are ignorant and generally don't represent the "normal" population.


I'll also add that there's b een a few places in East Harlem, Washingtro DC, and Houston, TX wehere I've been none to comfortable being a white guy riding in some of those neighborhoods.

[Tugg Speedman]

It instructs me that when in Boston, MA to not take an attractive female client to dinner to discuss business as someone will make an ugly comment for our mutual benefit.

Let me second (or third) Chicos post by highlighting this section.

Of course I believe racism exists.  But where are you taking (or would you take) this attractive female to dinner in Boston?  I happen to be a "lily white middle aged guy" that also has a black female client in Boston.  I have taken her to dinner several times over the last 20 years and I have never felt this way.  Now maybe I'm dense but I get no indication whatsoever from her that she feels this way either.

Are you taking her to some south Boston dive?  Because the Boston I know is so liberal and "progressive" that they want to celebrate "mix couple" dinners.

Anyone think Doc Rivers feels uncomfortable taking his wife to dinner in Boston?

[texaswarrior74]

Those doubting most of what he says don't live in Texas...outside of Dallas, Austin, San Antonio and Houston the rules are very different......despite what you read about this being the "southwest" small town Texas is in actuality the south with old southern sensibilities mixed with hardcore Christian fundamentalist (read Southern Baptist) beliefs.  The Southern Baptists believe that Catholics are not Christian....in fact more like heathens with our "idol worship" associated with the saints.  A few years back at their annual convention their stated mission for the next year was "conversion of the Jews"....I am NOT kidding about this.

It was really eye opening when I moved here 30 years ago....older Black women acted in a highly deferential manner if you encountered them as a waitress in a restaurant.....at first I was very uncomfortable and didn't understand what was behind it until someone explained to me that only a few years before there were still separate (colored/white) water fountains in the downtown department stores and the same restaurant counter they now worked at had been off limits to them just a few years before.....we aren't talking about the 50s and 60s here folks but the mid 70s. In east Texas and small town west and central Texas it lasted much longer and many of those sentiments still pervade today.

Dallas and the big cities have become more cosmopolitan because of the influx of northerners but it didn't come easily....there was a lot of backlash and resentment aimed at those of us who were viewed as interlopers during the huge inbound migration that took place in the late 70s and early 80s. The rest of Texas has been very slow to change.....at first it was difficult for me do do business in west Texas in the early 80s and I had to work really hard to build relationships and prove that I wasn't really one of those "damn Yankees".....and I am a white male......I'd still be trying to get that business if I was a person of color.

Until you have lived here and seen it first hand don't be so quick to dismiss what he said. On another note, my daughter went to college in South Carolina...you want to talk about still being in the 50s and 60s....spend some time there......blatant overt racism is alive and well there....we were all shocked to witness it. It's still a very different world south of the Mason Dixon line folks.....you may not see it when you visit or vacation there.....but it is still far from enlightened .....those of you living in Cali, Chicago, and Milwaukee have NO idea.

[texaswarrior74]

Thought you'd enjoy reading this comment to an article in today's Dallas Morning news about conference realignment. It will reinforce my earlier post about how truly conservative most of this state is.

In the article Tim Cowlishaw gets to the real truth behind realignment and reinforces that academics not athletics is driving the bus here. The real truth that very few people have considered is that research dollars from places like the NIH and NSF are enormous and absolutely dwarf any athletic dollars. The SEC is not a good academic for for Texas and this is borne out in the article.

Here's the article and the comment

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/061310dnspocowlishaw.1d0be4e.html

Tim Cowlishaw may have actually made the BEST argument for A&M LEAVING: This comment is WHY. At the heart of this entire chain of events is something that goes beyond athletic pride or TV dollars. It's Texas' desire – specifically, UT president Bill Powers' dream – of joining his Cal-Berkeley alma mater and Stanford at the very top of Pac-10 academic institutions of learning......... Is it about Academics or LIBERALISM? Powers would ultimately indoctorate (sic) not only UT (Liberal but NOT quite Cal), in the extreme Berkeley/Pac-10 way of thinking (But subject other Big 12 schools to it as well). What would be A&Ms fate, having Code Pink PROTEST the Aggie Cadets, if and when they played at Berkeley (Remember how objectionable Baylor was to Berkeley, and how the Mayor of Berkeley called the Marines "An Occupational Force")? Give me a break. A&M by leaving is not only helping the football team and showing guts by standing up to Bevo the BULLy, but protecting their traditions as well (Not sacrificing the ROTC and military history to "Satisfy" radical left-wingers and their suporters in the Mainstream Media"). ...... A&M can survive without UT.

This person is not an isolated kook....I know plenty of people who think and talk just like him....many would be very happy to send those of us who moved here back to where we came from and put a large fence around the state to keep all the "left wing pinko liberals" out.

[NersEllenson]

Let me say this. I am a man of color and I have been stopped by cops while driving in Plano, San Angelo, Lubbock, and Wichita Falls, Texas. In every case I had broken no rules. In every case I was asked to exit my vehicle. In every case the cop searched my vehicle. My crime? Being a non-white guy driving a late model European sports car on their virginal lily white streets. A man of color is suspect at first sight. The cop might not know the crime but a man's complexion is reason enough. If you are white you cannot fathom what this feels like. In Plano, I was driving to the local Tom Thumb to get some steak sauce and mangos. In Lubbock? I was driving back to my five star hotel. Is Monterale guilty of anything? I do not know nor will I judge as, like every one else here, we really do not know what transpired. He compromised himself by putting himself in a questionable situation. For you white dudes, there is something called the Brother's Handbook. It instructs me not to stop for lunch in some small east Texas towns because my car and Hugo Boss suit will attract unwanted attention. It instructs me that when in Boston, MA to not take an attractive female client to dinner to discuss business as someone will make an ugly comment for our mutual benefit. The fact that a cop has written a report on Mr Clark may or may not have any basis in reality. There are two criminal codes in this nation one is white and the other is dark. If your ancestors came from some land other than Europe you are subject to the latter, especially when a situation involves a caucasian female.

Actually in the case of Monterale, the accuser is Hispanic.  I'll give you a pass on the Five-Star Hotel comment in Lubbock - and just assume you are trying to paint the picture that:  Even as a successful, polished, black man - you still can be subject to racial profiling.  And that is a sad reality of our society, and I'm sure frustrating.  As a Texan, it is very true that the rural areas of Texas to this day can be quite racist - particularly in East Texas and West Texas.  Having said this, I do believe in some cases, the black community pulls out the race card a bit too prematurely, and too frequently to where it loses credibility.  The reality is there are jack-ass cops of every color, jack ass people of every color, and ignorant people of every color.  And for those who fall into that category, we obviously don't need to associate with, nor befriend them, nor should we care what their opinions are, as they are formed from a place/background of less education/intelligence.  As I'm sure many have, I've met some great friends of all races - while also meeting some real jack asses of every race.  So, it comes down to the individual, and everyone's goal should be to remove any stereotype or predisposition, and meet every person with an open mind, clean slate, and let their character determine if a relationship of friendship and respect is warranted.

[Avenue Commons]

All any of us on this page know is that one of 2 things happened:

1. Monterale clark committed on of the worst crimes possible in rape, OR

2. Monterale's life has been ruined by being falsely accused of rape.

Wrong. We know that he committed rape and was not falsely accused. HE GAVE A RECORDED STATEMENT THAT HE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED THE GIRL.

This is maybe the stupidest thread ever. Read the f'ing affidavit and his own admissions. He's a piece of garbage and I hope he goes away for a while.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thought you'd enjoy reading this comment to an article in today's Dallas Morning news about conference realignment. It will reinforce my earlier post about how truly conservative most of this state is.

In the article Tim Cowlishaw gets to the real truth behind realignment and reinforces that academics not athletics is driving the bus here. The real truth that very few people have considered is that research dollars from places like the NIH and NSF are enormous and absolutely dwarf any athletic dollars. The SEC is not a good academic for for Texas and this is borne out in the article.

Here's the article and the comment

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/061310dnspocowlishaw.1d0be4e.html

This person is not an isolated kook....I know plenty of people who think and talk just like him....many would be very happy to send those of us who moved here back to where we came from and put a large fence around the state to keep all the "left wing pinko liberals" out.

Absolutely true on the academics and I think this has been discussed a few times here. Texas wants to be in a conference with academic elites, (A&M is no slouch either when it comes to academics).  That is absolutely driving much of this.

On the Texas front.  I was born there, lived there for part of time growing up, do a ton of business there (San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, Austin areas).  Obviously that is different than living there every day.  There is no question they do things differently than other states, yet you can say the same thing out here in California where we don't think twice about trying to give non-legal US Citizens actual legal documents (stop for a second, and think about that for a second). 

At any rate, back to the Pac Ten, Big Ten, and SEC.  The part that I find interesting is the slam on SEC academics.  Now, by no means am I saying they are the Ivy League, they clearly are not.  However, Vanderbilt and Florida are outstanding institutions.  Georgia, Auburn, Alabama (yes, Alabama) are all very good schools that are right there with many of the major schools from the Big Ten and Pac Ten.  As an example, UGA, Auburn, Alabama are all ranked ahead of the Big Ten's Nebraska as well as the Pac Ten's Oregon, ASU, Washington State, Arizona and the pitiful Oregon State U....well, depending on what ranking you use.  The SEC gets killed by the two Mississippi schools, otherwise they have 6 in the top 100.

The way all these conferences are going, academics is big but they are going to get diluted, at least based on prior claims that fanboys of conferences wanted to make.  That won't stop the research dollars from flowing in, of course, which drives many of the rankings to begin with.

The irony is if this was all about academics, Texas should go to the Big Ten, where every member is in the top 100, including Nebraska who just nudges in there.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2010/03/15/athletic-conference-breakdown-2010-big-12.html

[4everwarriors]

In this whole reshuffling smack, the culture of a school's academics is secondary or tertiary in importance relative to the amount of money that can be made via the football program of said crappy schools.

[Skatastrophy]

You fixed nothing--in fact, it was more accurate before.  You actually made it worse.

Your change to the second statement presumes guilt.  What Clark admitted to was not necessarily a crime.  And he may even have been coerced into making the statement. Nothing has been proven.

You can jump down my throat and act indignant all you want, but you're wrong.  Clark fully admitted to assaulting an unconscious girl, which is always a crime.  His buddy said he saw Clark having some quality pants-down time with the victim.

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/59372882.html

Read the Clark affidavit.

1.  The victim was unconscious or otherwise unable to resist.
2.  Kirkland stated he observed Monterale lying on top of the victim while in the bed nearest the doorway.  Kirkland stated he observed Monterale's pants were down and the victim's shorts were off at the time. 
3.  A second interview with Monterale Clark was conducted to discuss the discrepancies in his statement.  Clark was advised of his Miranda Warning again and stated he understood and was willing to speak with detectives again.  Clark stated he was present without his roommate Danny Mckeown.  Clark stated he observed Kenny Kirkland having sexual intercourse with the victim.  Clark stated he merely inserted his finger into the victim's vagina.  Clark denied inserting his penis into the victim, stating it was Kenny Kirkland that inserted his penis in the victim that he was sure of that.

[texaswarrior74]

In this whole reshuffling smack, the culture of a school's academics is secondary or tertiary in importance relative to the amount of money that can be made via the football program of said crappy schools.

Not true at all....you missed the whole point. Research dollars at major research schools like UT, Stanford, and Cal can run into the high hundreds of millions per year even approaching billions at some schools. At schools with med schools (UT has four affiliated med schools in its system) the total amount of research dollars from the NIH and NSF is enormous. This source of revenue alone can make a $20 million dollar gain from a TV contract look like chump change in the big picture.

Add to that the big egos of the professors doing the research and the knowledge that if they walk, the research monies go with them and the university presidents don't want to align themselves with what would be considered a lesser conference of schools. The SEC has three strong academic schools, Vanderbilt, Georgia and Florida and the rest fall dramatically in the rankings after that. If Georgia was given the chance to join the ACC it would do so in a heartbeat....their president is really working hard to improve the academic stature of the school and would do flip flops to run with UVA, UNC and Duke.

This is the one truly puzzling piece of the A&M to the SEC talk if, as reported, the president is the person advocating it.....culturally A&M is much more like Auburn, Alabama and other "small town" SEC schools while UT is definitely much more like Cal, UCLA or Stanford. In fact, truth be told, UT is a far better fit in the Big 10 than anywhere else......

This is going to be interesting to watch unfold over the next few days.

[Marquette84]

You can jump down my throat and act indignant all you want, but you're wrong.  Clark fully admitted to assaulting an unconscious girl, which is always a crime. 

No.  Clark admitted to an act which would be legal if consensual. 

His buddy said he saw Clark having some quality pants-down time with the victim.

And Clark denied it.

Read the Clark affidavit.

I did---I just didn't jump to conclusions.

1.  The victim was unconscious or otherwise unable to resist.
2.  Kirkland stated he observed Monterale lying on top of the victim while in the bed nearest the doorway.  Kirkland stated he observed Monterale's pants were down and the victim's shorts were off at the time. 
3.  A second interview with Monterale Clark was conducted to discuss the discrepancies in his statement.  Clark was advised of his Miranda Warning again and stated he understood and was willing to speak with detectives again.  Clark stated he was present without his roommate Danny Mckeown.  Clark stated he observed Kenny Kirkland having sexual intercourse with the victim.  Clark stated he merely inserted his finger into the victim's vagina.  Clark denied inserting his penis into the victim, stating it was Kenny Kirkland that inserted his penis in the victim that he was sure of that.

1.  May or may not be true.  Might be made up by the victim (as was in the Duke case).  We should presume innocence until proven guilty--not assume guilt.

2.  And Montrale denied this.  Certainly the police collected samples to test for DNA.  If they have the proof, it will come out in the trial.

3.  May have been coerced.  Again, this is why we hold trials and present the evidence.

Now, does this look good for Clark?  No. 

But no matter how bad it looks, he is still entitled to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. 

[Dawson Rental]

I find it interesting that the original poster who was making his first post has not reentered into the discussion after 41 replies.  It makes me wonder if this thread was some kind of trial balloon.

In regards to Monterale not seeing a judge as of June 10th, that should be long enough for Monterale to have his case dismissed for violation of the "speedy trial" requirement.  But that would be only if Monterale's attorney was not agreeing to the delays to better prepare his defense or to work out a plea deal....

[Skatastrophy]

But no matter how bad it looks, he is still entitled to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. 

If I were on a jury I'd agree with you.  Sadly I'm just an anonymous denizen of the Internet.  I pass judgment swiftly and absolutely!

[Hards Alumni]

No.  Clark admitted to an act which would be legal if consensual. 


And Clark denied it.




I did---I just didn't jump to conclusions.


1.  May or may not be true.  Might be made up by the victim (as was in the Duke case).  We should presume innocence until proven guilty--not assume guilt.

2.  And Montrale denied this.  Certainly the police collected samples to test for DNA.  If they have the proof, it will come out in the trial.

3.  May have been coerced.  Again, this is why we hold trials and present the evidence.

Now, does this look good for Clark?  No. 

But no matter how bad it looks, he is still entitled to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. 

Strangely, we agree... A lot of people seem to want to cast judgement when they really don't know.  A signed afidavit admitting to something so quickly after the crime is dubious.  Now, if the girl was as intoxicated (how intoxicated is not important) and she was violated that night (as a rape kit can confirm) the prosecutor should have no problem putting these young men away.  Why hasn't he been able to?

I won't be so swift to judgement either way.

[buckchuckler]

I got nothing.

[ListerineSting]

Didn't know Lubbock had a 5 star hotel. Learn something every day.

The Hilton. I suppose it lacks the exquisite service of the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo but it is about the best one can do in Lubbock.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Hilton. I suppose it lacks the exquisite service of the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo but it is about the best one can do in Lubbock.

4 stars, not 5.  But a 4 star everywhere else is definitely a 5 star in Lubbock