MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MR.HAYWARD on May 30, 2008, 08:08:40 PM
-
Buckley's energy produced 143 wins in six seasons at Ball State before he moved to Marquette last season as a Crean assistant, then followed him to IU. “We had always talked about coaching a top-5 to -10 program, and (IU) was one of those opportunities,” Buckley said. “To have the privilege to come with him is great.”
-
Some wanted to believe that MU was Crean's destination job. The car salesman convinced many that he was selling a low mileage good runner. In reality he was peddling junk.
Crean wanted to leave here from the moment he was introduced. Wade gave him that opportunity early on with Crean caddying for him at the FF.
Tommy Boy would have left Marquette to coach at the University of Mars if the money was right. Its Mars, its Mars.
-
I thought Crean never considered leaving...?
I challenge you to find a quote of Crean's from anytime during his tenure where he said he would never leave.
I think some people have a hard time understanding the difference between "I love being the coach at Marquette" with "I'm staying here forever".
As much as it doesn't fit the narrative of "Crean betrayed us", he never swore allegiance to MU. It's not impossible love Marquette but also be interested in one of the half-dozen elite programs if the opportunity is there.
What Buckley's quote really validates is that Crean didn't want out of MU as much as he wanted a shot at one of those handful of elite programs. That's why he turned down a huge raise from Arkansas a year ago. Let's face it--there were at least 5 to 10 opportunities annually at roughly equivalent programs where Crean could have left if he simply wanted out, or wanted more money. But he didn't want any old Big East or SEC or Big Ten program. He wanted Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and Indiana.
It really makes our fans seem clueless to think that those programs don't have a certain cachet to them. Its gotten so bad that if a national reporter writes something that suggests that Indiana is at a level above MU, people immedeately make accusations that the reporters are simply impotent mouthpieces for "TC spin."
Sorry to burst your bubbles, guys, but there isn't a reporter in the country who would have put MU at Indiana's level on March 31st. Despite the last six or eight years of Indiana futility and MU success, every single one of them would have suggested even before Crean took the job that Indiana was a step up. I don't like it. I hoped that Crean felt otherwise. But I can't sit here like some of you and pretend there is no truth to it.
You people are as bad as the Dayton or SLU or UWM fans who think that their respective programs are at the same level as MU.
There's a pecking order, and it takes a long, loooong, loooooonnnnnnggggggg time for the national tide to turn on this. It hasn't been nearly long enough for Packer and Vitale and Musberger and the sportscenter crew, and the SI beat writers, and the TSN staff and all the other national sportscasters to put Indiana on the scrap heap of formerly great college basketball programs.
-
Some wanted to believe that MU was Crean's destination job. The car salesman convinced many that he was selling a low mileage good runner. In reality he was peddling junk.
Crean wanted to leave here from the moment he was introduced. Wade gave him that opportunity early on with Crean caddying for him at the FF.
Tommy Boy would have left Marquette to coach at the University of Mars if the money was right. Its Mars, its Mars.
So why did he turn down $2 million/season last year from Arkansas? If he wanted out as badly as you claim he did, why didn't he accept the Arkansas job?
Why didn't he chase the Wake Forest job when Prosser died? Why not Xavier? Why didn't he go after Georgia Tech? Why not Florida State? Or Iowa State? Or Nebraska? Or any of the other nearly 50 head coaching jobs in top 6 conferences that opened up between 2003 and 2008? Why didn't he make a run at DePaul? Why didn't he take a shot at Michigan? Or Wichita State. Or Baylor? Or Tennessee? Why not Rutgers? Or St. Johns? Or Seton Hall? Or Georgetown? Or South Florida? Why didn't he go after UW? Why not Minnesota? Why not Michigan?
Why did he take MU's raise and sign an extension in 2003 if he wanted out?
For a guy who "wanted to leave here from the moment he was introduced," he sure too a pass on a lot of programs, any of whom could have easily matched what Crean made at MU--and a whole lot more who could have done it before the big pay bump in 2003.
But go ahead--keep trying to force fit your pet theory. If you ignore enough facts, you can convince yourself of anything.
-
I challenge you to find a quote of Crean's from anytime during his tenure where he said he would never leave.
Well, there is that pesky signature on a 10 year contract. But what they heck, why would you expect a man to actually live up to his sginature on a contract?
-
Well, there is that pesky signature on a 10 year contract. But what they heck, why would you expect a man to actually live up to his sginature on a contract?
Correction: the 10 year contract with a $650K buyout. There was nothing "pesky" about Crean's signature. There is, however, something pesky about you pointing out the 10 year term without also mentioning the buyout.
Living up to the signature on the contract means that Crean, at his option, either a) pays MU $650,000 or b) stays until the term is up.
Once again, this is an example of ignoring inconvenient facts in order to fit a narrative.
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. Crean never said he would stay at MU forever. He had plenty of opportunities to leave for more money, but didn't. He signed a contract that gave him the option of staying at MU for 10 years, or leaving if he paid the buyout. And he left for one of the few jobs that the entire world outside of MU fans readily accepts as one of the five or six elite programs in college basketball.
-
I would venture to say that Indiana's best days are behind.
-
I know most around here want him to fail but he was a very decent coach who did a lot of good things for MU and will do the same at IU. Give IU 2 years to unearth itself from the Samson debacle and they will become a top 25 for many a years.
-
It's clear that there's a lot of professional career maneuvering going on. Crean turned down other offers because they were detours, moves that did nothing to enhance his positioning for one of those marquee jobs out there, and in fact, would have been poor use of the nice launching pad he'd created here. Buzz has shown some savvy, opportunistic career maneuvering of his own. As the faithful of Marquette, we're looking at it from a different perspective than the coach. As partisan fans, we want to believe that when we say "We are Marquette," that our coach joins right in there with us.
-
I know most around here want him to fail but he was a very decent coach who did a lot of good things for MU and will do the same at IU. Give IU 2 years to unearth itself from the Samson debacle and they will become a top 25 for many a years.
Top 25 is not the Indiana that I remember. They were in contention every year.
-
Jesus Christ guys. Get over it already. He's gone. And yes...it IS Indiana. It takes more than nine good years for MU to get to their level. That's just a friggin' fact. Get off the guy for leaving to go to what is arguably one of the top 5-7 highest profile college gigs in the country. Anyone here would have done it in a heartbeat.
All of you people that bitch about Crean breaking his contract are the same ones that wanted another "slimeball" or "used car salesman" to break his existing contract with another school to come to MU.
-
Correction: the 10 year contract with a $650K buyout. There was nothing "pesky" about Crean's signature. There is, however, something pesky about you pointing out the 10 year term without also mentioning the buyout.
Living up to the signature on the contract means that Crean, at his option, either a) pays MU $650,000 or b) stays until the term is up.
Once again, this is an example of ignoring inconvenient facts in order to fit a narrative.
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. Crean never said he would stay at MU forever. He had plenty of opportunities to leave for more money, but didn't. He signed a contract that gave him the option of staying at MU for 10 years, or leaving if he paid the buyout. And he left for one of the few jobs that the entire world outside of MU fans readily accepts as one of the five or six elite programs in college basketball.
Joanie, it's getting late on a Friday night, do you know where your brother Jim's car keys are?
-
Get off the guy for leaving to go to what is arguably one of the top 5-7 highest profile college gigs in the country. Anyone here would have done it in a heartbeat.
I would have told the players that were on my team that I had recruited and formed a pretty solid bond with (you would hope) in person BEFORE they found out from their parents, who found out from ESPN. I used to be a big Tom Crean supporter when he was here, but when the guy goes about it that way it's pretty Bush League. I will, for the first time in my life, begin rooting for Wisconsin to win 2 games a year.
Understand the move, but not how he went about it, especially if he had somebody contact Indiana and tell them he was very interested in their job.
-
Get off the guy for leaving to go to what is arguably one of the top 5-7 highest profile college gigs in the country.
OK IU has a place in NCAA history. I liked what Tom did for MU he put the program back on the map. If you take away D. Wade his NCAA record is not that good. If you look at last year Tom's weakness as a bench coach was shown. Coaches like Calhoun, Pitino, Boeheim and Huggins took it to him and he had no answer. I don't argue IU's place in NCAA history but is TC ready? I wish him luck and hope he grows as a coach or they will run him out of town with his red and white striped pants on.
-
7 straight 19 win seasons is not what IU expects. Its a bit tougher to recruit IU these days as it has been a mess since Knight left the building. He is still recruiting and competing for players that he would have recruited at Marquette. Plus, Crean is no bench coach - he can run a practice but cant make adjustments in a real game.
My previous support for Tom Crean was more due to the wade's success and he was our coach.
-
Crean's gone...elevated MU for sure, but had issues to get us further... good luck at IU - he will need it, I like our chances with Buzz....
-
Oneill elevated MU and Crean got lucky with one recruit.
-
Anybody that didn’t think crean would leave is quite oblivious and also not very intelligent. He’s a human and he will do what is best for himself so this notion of him being a superior creature is a bunch of crap except you all ate it up like homeless people eating food. As for crean helping the program well the donors and school paid him some 1.5 million a year so you should expect excellence otherwise you are selling yourself short. But as usual a lot of MU alums have low expectations for the basketball team and too a certain extent that carries over to the University. He did an alright job but he certainly has his limitations. He should take a basketball class or two instead of marketing classes and motivational speaking classes!!
Hey Niv have you bulldozed any Palestinian homes lately?
-
i think 4ever is dead wrong....Crean would not have hopped at anything for the money he is too arrogant for that. I do not blame him for taking what he thinks is a top 10 program and while it may have slipped i beleive Iu still qualifies as that. However and I care not too look Crean has many times said he is happy at MU and is not interested in any other jobs except the one he has. now i think everyone and his brother knew that was BS, but he did say it. Also Crean in his staements has led everyone to beleive that he was always 100% dedicated to Mu and never considered anyother job until about march 31st 2008. My point with the quote is it is obvious that Crean and Buckley had sat around on at least a few occasions and opined on how great it would be to be at a tp 5-10 program. Well good for him and good for us.
-
I don't think anyone appreciated the way he left, but the progression from the Dean era to now has been substantial. I can't blame him for leaving in the big picture and wish him luck at Indiana. Now move on...
Go Buzz!
-
TC=Bill Clinton--a lot to love, a lot to hate.
MU rewarded TC and he rewarded MU. Brought back the program and spirit, F4, DW3, BE, excitement, 70+ winning % with his players, clean, graduated players, salesman for MU, national pub hound, decent recruiter, his teams played hard and made MU proud.
He was also a control freak, alienated quite a few, had transfer and asst. coach fall out, was considered a spoiled brat (George Karl among others), not a great game coach, always looking (maybe not jumping) for something better (interesting how a $2mm offer from Ark. materializes without any TC interest?), rumors of job wonderlust hurt him on the recruiting trail, his image marketing grew old to the Wiscophobes.
That is the man as you continue to see at IU. Perfect hire for IU based on his resume and their short term needs. How he left his players and bosses will prevent him from ever being remembered fondly by many at MU. All kidding aside, TC will be continued to be talked about as he is that polarizing. He is flawed, yet there is always that promise of greatness that keeps folks coming back to him.
-
WadesWorld....agree with you 100%. But HOW he left and WHY he left are two totally separate arguments. I think it was garbage HOW left. But as for why? That can't be argued about.
-
He considered leaving for a top 6 program (in his estimation). Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, IU. (UNC and Duke, too, but those promotions will come from inside the family). Illinois, Virginia, Arkansas were not a big enough jump to justify his leaving. He got his shot at what he thinks of as the brass ring. He took it.
In his 9 years at MU, he gave MU what it wanted, a successful, clean program and a return to a seat at the table with the big boys. He graduated his players and generally won the right way. MU gave him what he wanted, total control and a platform to sell himself to the national media and set himself up for this dream (It's INDIANA!) job. Kind of like the Seger lyric from 'Night Moves'. "I used her, she used me, neither one cared, we were gettin' our share"
His method of leaving played up all of his weaknesses, the ones we were aware of and chose to overlook because we were winning 70% of our games and were competitive with the legendary programs in the BEast, where we all felt we should have been all along. It was self-centered, self-aggrandizing, all about control, and threw a program (instead of a player or assistant) under the bus when he had no further use for it.
MU is moving on. Right now, Buzz has a better 09 class than Crean does. MU has a better returning team than Crean does. If Buzz can game coach 85% as well as he recruits, MU is going to be in solid hands and will not miss TC at all.
TC has his dream and is in danger of having it turn into a nightmare. A team in disarray. A continued inability to recruit quality bigs, even at IU, which I honestly thought would be impossible. And an entire state that is watching his every word and gesture and will quickly turn on him if he doesn't have that ship righted in 2 years. Congratulations and good luck, TC, you are going to need it.
So, yeah, he and his assistants talked about and aspired to a top 5 program. They put themselves in a position to grab it when it came along and then grabbed with both hands and gusto. Personally, I have let him go. My anger with him quickly dissipated. I nearly pity him now. And I look forward to MU success in the future.
-
Oneill elevated MU and Crean got lucky with one recruit.
One recruit? That's just crazy.
Perhaps you've heard of:
Travis Diener
Steve Novak
The Big East
Zero losing seasons
The Al
Jerel McNeal
2003 Final Four
Dominic James
Record attendance
Wes Matthews
Five NCAA tourneys the last seven seasons
Need I continue?
Tom Crean did and/or had a key role in a lot of great things at Marquette University. Those of you doing your darndest to minimize his successes, or ignore them altogether, are acting like jilted lovers.
"She was ugly and I never liked her anyways."
As for 4never's contentions ... he can claimit all he wants, but the facts prove otherwise.
Doesn't it stink when the facts get in the way of a good argument?
-
Yep, that or why he left is easily understood as TC is a guy who wants the limelight. And, thats fine. How he left while dissing virtually all of his stakeholders is whats at issue. It will be hard for many folks to forget that. I expected him to move on at some point; although, I was surprised that it was this year going into the senior season for the "3 amigos". TC really pretty much guaranteed in public that he would stay for the duration of the amigos' MU careers during the Ohio State search shortly after they committed to MU. Hard to interpret those words any differently. Certainly, the body language and words from DJ, Wes and Jerel following TC's departure confirm that. But, TC will have to live with all of that. Time to talk MU basketball...!!! Is it October yet.
-
Pakuni - it is debatable and since we dont have games to talk about, i bring this up. If wade doesnt come, what does the crean era look like? A top 10 NBA talent doesnt come along that often - even at a program like Indiana.
Is there a final four?
Is there a Big East?
Three Amigos?
I think we are ok, but instead of 7 straight 19+ win seasons, maybe we are talking about 3 straight 19 win seasons. I think the Diener/Novak lead seasons of 03-05 are more of the norm and we dont even get considered by dom James and maybe Matthews goes to UW. All hypothetical, but have we reached the sweet 16 more than once over the last 10 years? Is the PR so thick that we cant see the facts?
-
Pakuni - it is debatable and since we dont have games to talk about - i bring this up. If wade doesnt come, what does the crean era look like?
Mike Deane five seasons 100-55 post season appearances 4 record 7 and 4. Tom Crean nine seasons 190-96 post season appearances 8 record 7 and 8. Take D. Wade away and the numbers drop more. He had good players and did great things for MU but D. Wade made him millions.
-
D-wade was a statistical outlier kind of player. One hell of a statistical outlier player who made everyone associated with him millions from his divorced wife, TC and MU.
-
Pakuni - it is debatable and since we dont have games to talk about, i bring this up. If wade doesnt come, what does the crean era look like? A top 10 NBA talent doesnt come along that often - even at a program like Indiana.
Is there a final four?
Is there a Big East?
Three Amigos?
For starters, this whole debate centers around the specious notion that Crean had nothing to do with Wade a) coming to Marquette and b) developing into the player he is today.
Guess what fellas? No Tom Crean, no Dwyane Wade at Marquette. Simple as that. You can't separate the two. It's akin to arguing that John Thompson accomplished nothing at Georgetown. He just got lucky with Patrick Ewing.
And Ray Meyer accomplished nothing at DePaul. He just got lucky with George Mikan.
It doesn't work that way.
Secondly, plenty of coaches have had superstar players come through their program and not have the ensuing success Crean has had. Having a star player come through is by no means a guarantee of future success.
Ask Charlie Coles. Or Charlie Spoonhauer. Or Ricardo Patton.
-
Yikes! This continues on. Bottom line: Crean did good for us and was about as loyal as you will get from any coach on the college ranks anytime. 9 years in today's world is a lot. Basically, for the time you are anywhere, you want to do the best job you can to build your resume for either a raise and a long-tern contract, or another job. They all do it, every day. I hate it but they do it.
We have Buzz now - let's hope that he does us even better over the next number of years, and wants to stick around a while while he's doing it. I wish there was loyalty - but you don't find it much in the business world - it's all about opportunity. And college b-ball is a business - for the school and the coaches and hopefully, for the athletes who might get a deal after they graduate.
-
Guess what fellas? No Tom Crean, no Dwyane Wade at Marquette. Simple as that. You can't separate the two. It's akin to arguing that John Thompson accomplished nothing at Georgetown. He just got lucky with Patrick Ewing.
And Ray Meyer accomplished nothing at DePaul. He just got lucky with George Mikan.
It doesn't work that way.
bad arguments - dude - did you eat your wheaties today? Ray Meyer had years of success beyond that. Crean? Thompson was stud before and after?
-
WadesWorld....agree with you 100%. But HOW he left and WHY he left are two totally separate arguments. I think it was garbage HOW left. But as for why? That can't be argued about.
Oh absolutely, I said it from day one, there's no way he can turn down that offer. Doubling his salary (not that $1.2 million a year is anything that will cause you to have problems feeding your family...), playing in a MUCH easier conference, not having a bigger state school to compete with, BEING that big state school, etc. I can't blame him for leaving, but I can't stand him for HOW he left.
-
bad arguments - dude - did you eat your wheaties today? Ray Meyer had years of success beyond that. Crean? Thompson was stud before and after?
Interesting you cite Meyer's "years of success."
Following a final four with Mikan, Meyer suffered what can only be described as "years of mediocrity" with two decades of sub-par performance. It probably would have continued, except that 30 years after Mikan, he got lucky again with Terry Cummings and Mark Aguirre. And once again--after the 1979 final four the record isn't much to speak of: Meyer managed just a single NCAA tournament win over the rest of his career (five seasons).
If you're going to fault Crean for not having a lot of NCAA success after a final four, and credit luck to land one a great player, then you have to accept that Meyer's reputation is based on the same type of luck--he just had it happen twice, separated by 30+ years. 13 NCAAs in 42 years does not compare favorably to Tom Crean's record.
BTW, John Thompson had 3 final fours with Ewing. And zero without.
-
thompson was elite with ewing 3 title games...but he was also very good without him as he had other good players in the program. onething to be the best team in the country three staright years and then falling to "only" a top 10 program. not a goog analogy with Mu as Wades team couldhave lost every NCAA game in the 2003 tourny before putting it all together aganst Kentucky , it was a cinderella situation as far as they one one barn burner after another. GT waltzed to 3 ttle games winnign 0ne, they were stila great team. Mu was busy losing to Westrn Michagn and anyone else with a pulse for two years and since then while we have been better we have won 1 tournament game. John thompson blew those mnumbers away
-
thompson was elite with ewing 3 title games...but he was also very good without him as he had other good players in the program. onething to be the best team in the country three staright years and then falling to "only" a top 10 program. not a goog analogy with Mu as Wades team couldhave lost every NCAA game in the 2003 tourny before putting it all together aganst Kentucky , it was a cinderella situation as far as they one one barn burner after another. GT waltzed to 3 ttle games winnign 0ne, they were stila great team. Mu was busy losing to Westrn Michagn and anyone else with a pulse for two years and since then while we have been better we have won 1 tournament game. John thompson blew those mnumbers away
Regardless, Thompson never reached a final four without Patrick Ewing. In other words, he's not a final four coach--he got lucky with one player.
You can argue that Thompson is better if you want--but you can't argue that Georgetown reached the final four based on his coaching ability, and at the same time argue that MU only made the final four because of Wade.
If we strip Crean of credit for reaching the final four because he only made it with Wade, then we shouldn't give Thompson credit either, becuase he only made it with Ewing. In fact, in Thompsons last 9 seasons, he only made it past the first weekend twice. A far cry from making the final four 3 times out of 4.
-
crazy talk - Thompson had 24 straight post season appearances vs. only made the sweet 16 1x.
slippery slope with this argument
-
Jesus Christ guys. Get over it already. He's gone. And yes...it IS Indiana. It takes more than nine good years for MU to get to their level. That's just a friggin' fact. Get off the guy for leaving to go to what is arguably one of the top 5-7 highest profile college gigs in the country. Anyone here would have done it in a heartbeat.
All of you people that bitch about Crean breaking his contract are the same ones that wanted another "slimeball" or "used car salesman" to break his existing contract with another school to come to MU.
Totaly agree.
-
Crean was overrated------his teams at MU in conference and postseason were 45-23 in January and 58-50 in February and March (includes the final four year with Wade).
The conclusion one can draw from this is that Crean's teams peaked in December & January and that crean's teams got worse as the season progresses, which is a sign of poor coaching!
-
Crean was overrated------his teams at MU in conference and postseason were 45-23 in January and 58-50 in February and March (includes the final four year with Wade).
The conclusion one can draw from this is that Crean's teams peaked in December & January and that crean's teams got worse as the season progresses, which is a sign of poor coaching!
Not this stupid formula again!
Under your formula, almost nobody improves as the season progresses. 7 of the 8 recent final four teams statistically "faded" according to your formula.
Of COURSE you include MU's 2003 final four year in your calculation. Because statistically, MU faded that year!
9-1 in conference prior to the first loss in February
9-3 beginning with the first loss in February
According to you, MU faded in 2003. That should tell you how stupid this formula is.
-
For starters, this whole debate centers around the specious notion that Crean had nothing to do with Wade a) coming to Marquette and b) developing into the player he is today.
Interesting. IMO, Crean is the only one that held Wade under 30 points per game. Had he been a good coach, who knows how far we could have gone w/ the talent on that team.
-
crazy talk - Thompson had 24 straight post season appearances vs. only made the sweet 16 1x.
slippery slope with this argument
You're complete and utterly missing the point.
The point is not whether Crean is as good or successful a coach as Thompson was.
Rather, it's the foolishness of arguing that all of Crean's success at Marquette is due to him getting "lucky" with one player ... including success that occurred long after that one player was gone.
If one applies the same logic to Thompson that you've applied to Crean, one would have to say that Thompson got lucky with one player (Ewing) and all his subsequent success with guys like Mourning, Mutumbo, Iverson, etc. was merely an extension of his good fortune in landing Ewing.
It's a silly argument, but it's the one some of you are choosing to make.
-
bad arguments - dude - did you eat your wheaties today? Ray Meyer had years of success beyond that. Crean? Thompson was stud before and after?
Thompson was a stud before and after? He never made a Final Four without Ewing.
-
Michael Jordan didn't do squat without Scottie Pippen, Joe Montana and Jerry Rice: ditto, Costello/Abbott, Chet Huntley/David Brinkley, Bill Russell/Red Auerbach, Secretariat/Ron Turcotte, Lucille Ball/Desi Arnaz, Johnny Carson/Ed McMahon, Tiger Woods/Earl Woods, The Apostle Paul /Barnabas....yada yada.. This could go on for days. Hey, and while we're at it, let's compare things that can't be compared, apples and oranges. Why don't we compare the number of guys who went through Tark's program, who ended up broke and maybe in jail, yeah.. and then compare that to, oh I don't know, Denny Crum's guys? And we'll come up with algorithms to determine the crappier program. So anyway, who's comparing Crean to John Thompson anyway? Who cares about that one? What's the point with this anyway? And another thing: does anyone ever convince anyone of anything? No. Take this post, for instance: Am I entertaining anyone but myself? No. Have I really made a point? Not really. Does it really bother me that you guys are making detailed points over diddly? Actually no. Carry on... My bad.
-
This thread has so many fallacies it's hard where to know where to start, though the original poster gets it going nicely with an absurd statement that Crean (or anyone else) never thought about leaving or pursuing other jobs.
I have a copy of a letter that Joe Paterno sent out to Yale as he was interested in being their head coach in the 1960's. All coaches look, you're kidding yourself if they don't.
As for the Wade comments. Wow. Wade said point blank why he came to Marquette. I'd suggest some of you buy the book Tales from the Hardwood...or is Wade lying? No Crean = No Wade. PERIOD. Wade's words, not mine.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AGWP32W0L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)
The statement on Crean keeping Wade down or we would have gone farther...farther then what...the Final Four? Teams that rely on one great player are largely failures. Whether it was the Lakers with Kobe when he didn't share the ball, LSU with Pete, the Bulls with Jordan, etc. When great players have balanced teams and play with balance, they are lethal. Otherwise it's too easy on the defense. MU had 3 NBA players on that team plus a NBA Development League player...Wade along with those players led that team. If you let Wade go off any more, then somewhere else suffers and they aren't as balanced.
John Thompson....the same guy that lost our first Olympic Gold medal not based on the fix (the 1972 games)...that John Thompson? The closest 1 vs 16 seed game in NCAA history....that John Thompson? Thompson was a very nice coach but let's not get overboard.
I love Hayward's comments about how MU could have lost every game in 2003 in the NCAAs. Yup...I guess he forgot to look at Georgetown's runs...like beating SMU 37 to 36 (even though G'Town had a bye back in those days and SMU had to play 2 days earlier). Or G'Town struggling with Wyoming in 1982, barely beating Alcorn State 68-63 in the NCAAs, or getting hammered by Memphis in the 2nd round in '83.
And to MOWarrior's excellent point, who the hell is comparing Crean to Thompson anyway? First of all, shouldn't you wait until Crean is done as well with his career?
As a little comparison, in Crean's first 9 years = 5 NCAAs, 3 NITs and 1 Final Four. Thompson's first 9 years = 5 NCAAs, 2 NITs, 0 Final Fours. Both Crean and Thompson had 1st round NIT home losses in that time period.
Did you know in Thompson's 20 NCAA appearances his team bowed out in the first or 2nd round TWELVE TIMES! Is this not the same complaint of Crean...bowing out early at an alarming rate? Including a 5 year stretch after his Final Four run where he couldn't get to the Sweet 16...hmm, sounds familiar. Oh, and I can just imagine MU being a number one seed under Crean and winning by 1 point against a 16 seed, the love he would have received here? ::)
Compare Crean to Thompson all you like but do it on an apples to apples basis. In Thompson's first 9 years vs Crean's...Crean wins. If you want to compare the overall record, then I'd suggest you wait until Crean is done in 20 or 30 years so that apples to apples can be compared.
-
Buckley's energy produced 143 wins in six seasons at Ball State before he moved to Marquette last season as a Crean assistant, then followed him to IU. “We had always talked about coaching a top-5 to -10 program, and (IU) was one of those opportunities,” Buckley said. “To have the privilege to come with him is great.”
You don't give MU enough credit. Maybe what they were talking about was getting Marquette the point of being a top 5 to top 10 program on a regular basis and coaching that team.
-
One recruit? That's just crazy.
Perhaps you've heard of:
Travis Diener
Steve Novak
The Big East
Zero losing seasons
The Al
Jerel McNeal
2003 Final Four
Dominic James
Record attendance
Wes Matthews
Five NCAA tourneys the last seven seasons
Need I continue?
Tom Crean did and/or had a key role in a lot of great things at Marquette University. Those of you doing your darndest to minimize his successes, or ignore them altogether, are acting like jilted lovers.
"She was ugly and I never liked her anyways."
As for 4never's contentions ... he can claimit all he wants, but the facts prove otherwise.
Doesn't it stink when the facts get in the way of a good argument?
+1. 'Nuff said. TC did an amazing job at MU. It really sucks how and why he left, but that doesn't mean his accomplishments are any less remarkable.
-
This thread has so many fallacies it's hard where to know where to start, though the original poster gets it going nicely with an absurd statement that Crean (or anyone else) never thought about leaving or pursuing other jobs.
I have a copy of a letter that Joe Paterno sent out to Yale as he was interested in being their head coach in the 1960's. All coaches look, you're kidding yourself if they don't.
As for the Wade comments. Wow. Wade said point blank why he came to Marquette. I'd suggest some of you buy the book Tales from the Hardwood...or is Wade lying? No Crean = No Wade. PERIOD. Wade's words, not mine.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AGWP32W0L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)
The statement on Crean keeping Wade down or we would have gone farther...farther then what...the Final Four? Teams that rely on one great player are largely failures. Whether it was the Lakers with Kobe when he didn't share the ball, LSU with Pete, the Bulls with Jordan, etc. When great players have balanced teams and play with balance, they are lethal. Otherwise it's too easy on the defense. MU had 3 NBA players on that team plus a NBA Development League player...Wade along with those players led that team. If you let Wade go off any more, then somewhere else suffers and they aren't as balanced.
John Thompson....the same guy that lost our first Olympic Gold medal not based on the fix (the 1972 games)...that John Thompson? The closest 1 vs 16 seed game in NCAA history....that John Thompson? Thompson was a very nice coach but let's not get overboard.
I love Hayward's comments about how MU could have lost every game in 2003 in the NCAAs. Yup...I guess he forgot to look at Georgetown's runs...like beating SMU 37 to 36 (even though G'Town had a bye back in those days and SMU had to play 2 days earlier). Or G'Town struggling with Wyoming in 1982, barely beating Alcorn State 68-63 in the NCAAs, or getting hammered by Memphis in the 2nd round in '83.
And to MOWarrior's excellent point, who the hell is comparing Crean to Thompson anyway? First of all, shouldn't you wait until Crean is done as well with his career?
As a little comparison, in Crean's first 9 years = 5 NCAAs, 3 NITs and 1 Final Four. Thompson's first 9 years = 5 NCAAs, 2 NITs, 0 Final Fours. Both Crean and Thompson had 1st round NIT home losses in that time period.
Did you know in Thompson's 20 NCAA appearances his team bowed out in the first or 2nd round TWELVE TIMES! Is this not the same complaint of Crean...bowing out early at an alarming rate? Including a 5 year stretch after his Final Four run where he couldn't get to the Sweet 16...hmm, sounds familiar. Oh, and I can just imagine MU being a number one seed under Crean and winning by 1 point against a 16 seed, the love he would have received here? ::)
Compare Crean to Thompson all you like but do it on an apples to apples basis. In Thompson's first 9 years vs Crean's...Crean wins. If you want to compare the overall record, then I'd suggest you wait until Crean is done in 20 or 30 years so that apples to apples can be compared.
Maybe Chico's best post ever. And that's saying a lot.
-
+1
-
Crean caught lightening in a bottle with Wade. No one knew what type of a player he was going to develop into when he was at Richards. Decent D1 prospect - YES, Superstar - NO.
I know that the resident apologist will disagree, but I believe that the best way to evaluate Crean are the post-Wade years. He had a fantastic platform to recruit from (a final four) and a solid group of players to build upon. Bottom line is that he was OK. Lousy in the post-season but did well in a tough BE.
Let's hope Buzz outperforms his predecessor!
-
Crean caught lightening in a bottle with Wade. No one knew what type of a player he was going to develop into when he was at Richards. Decent D1 prospect - YES, Superstar - NO.
I know that the resident apologist will disagree, but I believe that the best way to evaluate Crean are the post-Wade years. He had a fantastic platform to recruit from (a final four) and a solid group of players to build upon. Bottom line is that he was OK. Lousy in the post-season but did well in a tough BE.
Let's hope Buzz outperforms his predecessor!
Funny...there's not much I disagree with in that statement with the exception of "decent D1 prospect". Totally depends who you ask. Two services had him top 50ish, but many outside of the top 100. If Buzz can do as well as "ok" that we had in the last 7 years, I'll be a happy camper. If he exceeds "ok", then even better. As for the fantastic platform, Buzz has one as good as any that Crean ever had so let's see how he does with it.
-
Crean caught lightening in a bottle with Wade. No one knew what type of a player he was going to develop into when he was at Richards. Decent D1 prospect - YES, Superstar - NO.
I know that the resident apologist will disagree, but I believe that the best way to evaluate Crean are the post-Wade years. He had a fantastic platform to recruit from (a final four) and a solid group of players to build upon. Bottom line is that he was OK. Lousy in the post-season but did well in a tough BE.
Let's hope Buzz outperforms his predecessor!
Totally agree - nice benchmarks to build on
-
Unfortunately this string has devolved into a Crean versus Thompson string or a Crean really did agodd job string.
Unfortunately none of these address my origingal point. My point was Crean reminded everyone more than we cared to hear it ( becuase we knew he was lying) that he had no interest in any other jobs and that he never considered being anywhere else. Even after he left he said he never considered any other job until march 31st and that was part of the reason he was so inconsiderate to his players and emplyers.
My point was based on Buckleys staements that based on that crean was truly the liar many of us had him for in many areas but also in this area in particular
-
that he had no interest in any other jobs and that he never considered being anywhere else.
Could you please cite one occasion in which Crean said he would never consider being anywhere else?
-
please the guy said it all the time.
-
please the guy said it all the time.
Then is should be a snap to find one example.
What he actually said was coach speak items like "I'm happy to be here". "I have a great job" Etc, etc He never said he was going to be at MU forever or wouldn't entertain other jobs....he usually played it coy and said he wouldn't comment on other jobs and was happy at MU.
"The bottom line is I've got a great job and I'll keep that usual stance of not commenting on other jobs, no matter what's reported or what's said," Crean said.
If you can provide something that said he would be at MU until he retired, produce it.
PS You still live in Indiana Hayward? If so, how's all the 24/7 Crean love going for you? ;)
-
please the guy said it all the time.
Dude, you sound like an ex-GF who goes on and on about her ex-BF.
He's gone.
Don't worry about him.
Don't take pleasure in his failures, don't let envy or jealousy consume you when he succeeds.
Just move on and leave him alone.
Trust me, the world is big enough for both you and Tom Crean to exist peacefully.
-
Dont get me wrong I am glad the guy is gone and am more than over it, i was over it the day it happen ...glad the day it happened. I was laso happy with the buzz hiring. My hope was for Sean miller and my #2 was buzz. So i am all good with it. I just find it funny that now buckley and Crean are opening up to the hoosier faithfula about how they frequently discussed landing at a place like Indiana.
Personally i grew up an Indidan fan and they were always my second favorite team. i now wish Iu to go 0 for every season until he gets fired. i also will for the first time in my life root for UWisconsin at lest 1 time a year.
-
i now wish Iu to go 0 for every season until he gets fired. i also will for the first time in my life root for UWisconsin at lest 1 time a year.
I guess I was wrong.
You're totally over it.
::)
Don't post about Crean anymore. Seriously. Leave it alone.
-
Warsaw, Indiana will do that to you
-
Warsaw IN, almost as depressing as Orange County!
-
Warsaw IN, almost as depressing as Orange County!
Nah, our women are much hotter.