I honestly don't think it's debatable. There are guys that are as good (or arguably better) spot shooters than Steph Curry. If my life depended on it I would consider Steve Novak to drain a wide open shot. But no one, and I mean no one, comes close to Steph shooting off the bounce. If you watched his performance Saturday, all eight of his trifectas were different and from numerous spots. Only one of them was a spot triple. Going one bounce left, right. step-back left, right, catch and drain, high arc over Wemby, etc, etc. We're talking about a once in a lifetime talent imo. And he also has that a myriad of floaters and can finish at the rim. He will be sorely missed when he retires.
Oh....sorry. Was meant for S-Bar.
And could've just been a post in the NBA thread.
I'm not sure who could debate it. So I guess we can shut the thread down.
Wrong!!!
This is the best shooter ever.
(https://static.tnn.in/thumb/msid-112444671,thumbsize-41622,width-500,height-300,resizemode-75/112444671.jpg?quality=100)
Pssh, hes a silver medalist aka first loser
Derrick Wilson has something to say
Markus Howard, second half against Buffalo. Or against Creighton. I know, I know. I will get angry letters.
Steph is amazing
There have been a number of guys who are really good spot up shooters from distance. Steve Kerr, Kyle Korver, Steve Novak all come to mind.
But when you combine the ball handling with the shooting, as well as just the audacity of some of his shots, it's Steph by a bunch. Probably followed by Steve Nash.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 13, 2024, 07:53:07 AM
There have been a number of guys who are really good spot up shooters from distance. Steve Kerr, Kyle Korver, Steve Novak all come to mind.
But when you combine the ball handling with the shooting, as well as just the audacity of some of his shots, it's Steph by a bunch. Probably followed by Steve Nash.
It's easily Steph Curry, but guys who came before the chuck and duck era of the NBA like Bird, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, and Dale Ellis would be right up there with Stef if they played today.
Agreed.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on August 13, 2024, 08:47:08 AM
It's easily Steph Curry, but guys who came before the chuck and duck era of the NBA like Bird, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, and Dale Ellis would be right up there with Stef if they played today.
Larry Bird was a lifetime 37.6% from 3. Majerle was 35%.
Curry is 42%. Bird and Majerle were not even in the same ballpark - and you don't even want to look at EFG comparisons.
Rice, Ellis, and Miller were around 40%, but weren't ball handlers Curry is.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on August 13, 2024, 08:47:08 AM
It's easily Steph Curry, but guys who came before the chuck and duck era of the NBA like Bird, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, and Dale Ellis would be right up there with Stef if they played today.
Dan Majerle?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on August 13, 2024, 08:47:08 AM
It's easily Steph Curry, but guys who came before the chuck and duck era of the NBA like Bird, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, and Dale Ellis would be right up there with Stef if they played today.
I jusr see a completely different level from Curry than the guys you mentioned. Lillard is sort of is a poor man's version of Steph but hasn't been as consistent obviously. Curry is the only guy that I've ever seen that can drain shots from prime-time distance, off the dribble, or on catch and shoots, from literally any spot on tbe floor , juking right, left, step-back, etc. His movement off the ball is also a thing of beauty. His ability to balance and launch so quickly shouldn't be overlooked.
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 13, 2024, 10:14:28 AM
I jusr see a completely different level from Curry than the guys you mentioned. Lillard is sort of is a poor man's version of Steph but hasn't been as consistent obviously. Curry is the only guy that I've ever seen that can drain shots from prime-time distance, off the dribble, or on catch and shoots, from literally any spot on tbe floor , juking right, left, step-back, etc. His movement off the ball is also a thing of beauty. His ability to balance and launch so quickly shouldn't be overlooked.
I think Dame also focused on doing something different from what Steph was doing, namely the 4-pt/logo-range shot. There was a huge feature article several years ago about how Dame decided he was going to turn a shot from dang near the moon into something he could hit at 33.1+% rate, and therefore render it a "good" shot, and then he did so. I'm far from a student of the NBA game, but I feel like there's a material difference between Steph-off-the-bounce, and Dame-from-the-logo that doesn't necessarily lend itself to a strict number-to-number comparison.
FWIW I don't have an opinion on whether one is better or harder or more impressive than the other, merely that they strike me as different shots in an important way that is lost if you just describe them as three point shots.
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 13, 2024, 10:14:28 AM
I jusr see a completely different level from Curry than the guys you mentioned. Lillard is sort of is a poor man's version of Steph but hasn't been as consistent obviously. Curry is the only guy that I've ever seen that can drain shots from prime-time distance, off the dribble, or on catch and shoots, from literally any spot on tbe floor , juking right, left, step-back, etc. His movement off the ball is also a thing of beauty. His ability to balance and launch so quickly shouldn't be overlooked.
This made me curious. I looked at Lillard and Stephs stats side by side. Lillards best 3P% season was 40.1% in 19-20. Currys average is 42.6%. Lillard is considered one of the best shooters of the 2010s and in his best season he couldn't match Currys average. In fact, if you remove Currys 5 game 19-20 season, Lillards best season only beat Currys worst season (.380 in 21-22).
Curry is nuts
Kyle Korver is a criminally under-rated catch and shoot player. His ability to catch/square/shoot all in one motion with the accuracy he had was something else.
There's no doubt Steph is the best. I think Ray Allen might be second
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 12, 2024, 11:38:27 PM
Pssh, hes a silver medalist aka first loser
He is the best when you factor in badassery.
When you evaluate our best shooters ever, I'd argue it's Markus Howard followed closely by Steve Novak.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 13, 2024, 11:10:23 AM
When you evaluate our best shooters ever, I'd argue it's Markus Howard followed closely by Steve Novak.
Limited to MU, I agree. Rowsey probably 3rd.
Sam Hauser *ducks*
Quote from: tower912 on August 13, 2024, 11:17:13 AM
Limited to MU, I agree. Rowsey probably 3rd.
Well, the OP didn't specify 3s. With those over 100 FGA, Kur at 71.3% is the leader. Oso at 66.7% not far behind.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 13, 2024, 10:35:28 AM
This made me curious. I looked at Lillard and Stephs stats side by side. Lillards best 3P% season was 40.1% in 19-20. Currys average is 42.6%. Lillard is considered one of the best shooters of the 2010s and in his best season he couldn't match Currys average. In fact, if you remove Currys 5 game 19-20 season, Lillards best season only beat Currys worst season (.380 in 21-22).
Curry is nuts
Its the James Harden effect, but Harden is even more curious. He never shot over 38% in a season from 3, but is thought of as a very good 3P shooter purely due to volume. He has 4 of the top 25 most 3P makes in a season. He made an absurd 378 in 18/19, second only to Curry's unreal 402 in 15/16...but Harden shot 36.5 from 3 that year and Curry shot 45% in that MVP season ;D
As for Lillard, of the players who have made more than 250 3s in a season, the only people who have done it more than Lillard are Steph and Klay, Dame is tied with Harden.
But Steph's numbers are video game-esque.
Of the top 10 highest 3PM in a season, Steph has 6.
Only 3 players have made 11+ 3s in a game more than once. Klay has done it 4 times, Dame has done it 4 times. Steph?.....13 damn times.
Steph has more than 800 more 3P makes than the next highest on the career list, which is Ray Allen the most consistent high volume make guy from deep. Allen's career high was 265 makes in a year. He'd need almost 4 full seasons of elite volume to catch Steph and he also played 4 more seasons than Steph has at this point.
Quote from: lawdog77 on August 13, 2024, 09:35:29 AM
Dan Majerle?
That one was a weird inclusion. Jon McGlocklin would shoot him out of the gym. Heck, the Van Arsdale twins were better shooters than Majerle.
Steph
Bird
Pistol Pete
Rick Barry
Jerry West
The Big O
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 13, 2024, 12:59:41 PM
Steph
Bird
Pistol Pete
Rick Barry
Jerry West
The Big O
lol...cmon...
I also join the Curry chorus. Given the number he takes, the variety of shots he takes, and the difficulty factor in many of them, it makes his great stats all the better.
But I'd caution against dismissing pre-court-spacing-is-everything era guys just because their stats aren't as gaudy. For example, Larry Bird didn't take all that many 3s as a regular part of Boston's offense; so many of his attempts came in difficult, pressure situations - end of game, end of shot clock, desperation time, etc. I posit that if he were playing today, and took a half-dozen 3s a game - many of them wide open - as just a function of the Celtics' normal offense, his percentage would be well higher than it was.
Obviously, there's no way for me to "prove" that theory, but I do think there's merit to it.
Curry is absurd, though. That nail-in-coffin 3 he hit ... that was just stoopid!
Ners
What about if they took off from the three point line
Quote from: MU82 on August 13, 2024, 03:26:11 PM
I also join the Curry chorus. Given the number he takes, the variety of shots he takes, and the difficulty factor in many of them, it makes his great stats all the better.
But I'd caution against dismissing pre-court-spacing-is-everything era guys just because their stats aren't as gaudy. For example, Larry Bird didn't take all that many 3s as a regular part of Boston's offense; so many of his attempts came in difficult, pressure situations - end of game, end of shot clock, desperation time, etc. I posit that if he were playing today, and took a half-dozen 3s a game - many of them wide open - as just a function of the Celtics' normal offense, his percentage would be well higher than it was.
Obviously, there's no way for me to "prove" that theory, but I do think there's merit to it.
Curry is absurd, though. That nail-in-coffin 3 he hit ... that was just stoopid!
That is about as ridiculous a defense of Bird as I have ever read. And doesn't match one bit of how I remember his game.
There is way too much romanticism of Bird as a player that the stats just don't back up.
Craig Hodges.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on August 13, 2024, 08:14:34 PM
Craig Hodges.
Lifetime 40% three point shooter with little additional value. Novak was a better shooter.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 13, 2024, 08:04:43 PM
That is about as ridiculous a defense of Bird as I have ever read. And doesn't match one bit of how I remember his game.
There is way too much romanticism of Bird as a player that the stats just don't back up.
Yeah, in his first nine years in the league-3 MVP's, 2nd in voting 4 times, a third, and a 4th. Way too much romanticism ::). Not sure what "stats" you are talking about.
Bird's first 5 years, he played power forward and averaged about 1 3 pt shot a game. When McHale was moved to the PF starting position, Bird swithced to SF and then shot more 3's at a rate of about 42%. His 3pt % was about 40% higher than the league average.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 13, 2024, 08:04:43 PM
That is about as ridiculous a defense of Bird as I have ever read. And doesn't match one bit of how I remember his game.
There is way too much romanticism of Bird as a player that the stats just don't back up.
Cool.
Quote from: lawdog77 on August 14, 2024, 04:33:23 AM
Yeah, in his first nine years in the league-3 MVP's, 2nd in voting 4 times, a third, and a 4th. Way too much romanticism ::). Not sure what "stats" you are talking about.
Bird's first 5 years, he played power forward and averaged about 1 3 pt shot a game. When McHale was moved to the PF starting position, Bird swithced to SF and then shot more 3's at a rate of about 42%. His 3pt % was about 40% higher than the league average.
82's excuse is that he shot late in the shot clock. Yours is that he played the wrong position I guess. Both are just strange.
Very good shooter. Not in the "best shooter ever" discussion.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 13, 2024, 08:04:43 PM
That is about as ridiculous a defense of Bird as I have ever read. And doesn't match one bit of how I remember his game.
There is way too much romanticism of Bird as a player that the stats just don't back up.
Excuse me, but how can their be "too much romanticism" about Larry Bird when you look at his stats, MVP's, and three titles?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 14, 2024, 08:09:46 AM
Excuse me, but how can their be "too much romanticism" about Larry Bird when you look at his stats, MVP's, and three titles?
He's not a top 10 player all time.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 07:54:31 AM
82's excuse is that he shot late in the shot clock. Yours is that he played the wrong position I guess. Both are just strange.
Very good shooter. Not in the "best shooter ever" discussion.
How is my reasoning strange? He switched to SF, and outside shots were there for him. Back then, PF's didnt work outside much. His 3s he took as a PF fits 82's narrative.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 07:54:31 AM
Very good shooter. Not in the "best shooter ever" discussion.
I agree with this.
I disagree that he is not a top 10 all-timer.
Quote from: lawdog77 on August 14, 2024, 08:13:56 AM
How is my reasoning strange? He switched to SF, and outside shots were there for him. Back then, PF's didnt work outside much. His 3s he took as a PF fits 82's narrative.
"My bad narrative is supported by another bad narrative."
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 08:12:34 AM
He's not a top 10 player all time.
So if you slot him top 15, not top 10, you're no longer "romanticizing him"?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 14, 2024, 08:32:53 AM
So if you slot him top 15, not top 10, you're no longer "romanticizing him"?
Yes.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 08:24:38 AM
"My bad narrative is supported by another bad narrative."
keep digging. You seem to be basing on your memory from 35 years ago, as opposed to data (look at his 3 point rate and attempts after he switched), MVP placings, 3 point contest.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 08:34:15 AM
Yes.
I see. Enlighten us Fluffy and name your non-negotiable top 15 players.
Quote from: lawdog77 on August 14, 2024, 08:36:13 AM
keep digging. You seem to be basing on your memory from 35 years ago, as opposed to data (look at his 3 point rate and attempts after he switched), MVP placings, 3 point contest.
I'm not digging anything. I never said he didn't deserve MVP trophies. You are making arguments I am not.
Oh and you have introduced another poor reasoning for why he shouldn't be considered in the all time best shooter discussion. As poor as 82's.
Quote from: wadesworld on August 12, 2024, 09:36:24 PM
And could've just been a post in the NBA thread.
I'm not sure who could debate it. So I guess we can shut the thread down.
Not sure why there was a post after this one.
Everyone agrees it's not debatable so they all start arguing about what requirements are needed to be in the discussion? Seems overly scoopish even for the offseason. Guess some are only happy when they're arguing.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 08:42:58 AM
I'm not digging anything. I never said he didn't deserve MVP trophies. You are making arguments I am not.
Oh and you have introduced another poor reasoning for why he shouldn't be considered in the all time best shooter discussion. As poor as 82's.
Cool.
Quote from: Its DJOver on August 14, 2024, 08:49:52 AM
Not sure why there was a post after this one.
Everyone agrees it's not debatable so they all start arguing about what requirements are needed to be in the discussion? Seems overly scoopish even for the offseason. Guess some are only happy when they're arguing.
Yep.
Quote from: Its DJOver on August 14, 2024, 08:49:52 AM
Not sure why there was a post after this one.
Everyone agrees it's not debatable so they all start arguing about what requirements are needed to be in the discussion? Seems overly scoopish even for the offseason. Guess some are only happy when they're arguing.
It's very easy to not participate in a discussion you don't want to participate in.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 09:07:29 AM
It's very easy to not participate in a discussion you don't want to participate in.
I agree, it's also very easy to point out stupid discussions where everyone already agrees but still argues.
Quote from: Its DJOver on August 14, 2024, 09:18:56 AM
I agree, it's also very easy to point out stupid discussions where everyone already agrees but still argues.
Huh. I usually ignore discussions I don't like.
I like this one, so I will stick with it.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on August 14, 2024, 09:21:32 AM
Huh. I usually ignore discussions I don't like.
I like this one, so I will stick with it.
Did I say I don't like it? I remember saying that it's scoopish and stupid.
The amount of stupid discussions I see and choose to pass on far exceeds the number I participate in. This on just happened to clear that arbitrary stupid bar where I felt it was worth my time to point out just how stupid it is.
Gilbert Arenas
Mark Anglavar.
Wonder if it's fair to compare shooting stats from the 80s/90s to today, given how modern NBA offenses are structured to give shooters good looks, which was far less the case back then (see: triangle offense).
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 14, 2024, 11:14:13 AM
Ja Morant giving him a run for his money
So we're talkin' gunners rather than shooters.
Quote from: Jockey on August 14, 2024, 01:06:10 PM
So we're talkin' gunners rather than shooters.
Alex English
All the other guys one would consider as best shooter ever, other than Steph, Klay, and Ray Allen are "just shooters". Yes, this means Dame is not even in the discussion because he's much more than just a shooter but he's not even close to the top 3.
Bird, if he played in today's game, would probably have Steph-like stats, but he played in a different era, and that's that.
If I'm teaching a kid shooting form? Ray Allen.
Quote from: WarriorFan on August 14, 2024, 06:38:15 PM
Bird, if he played in today's game, would probably have Steph-like stats, but he played in a different era, and that's that.
Doubtful.
gotta be wilt the stilt...didn't he brag about "anointing" over 10,000 women?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on August 14, 2024, 07:06:08 PM
gotta be wilt the stilt...didn't he brag about "anointing" over 10,000 women?
🚀,
I believe Wilt was good friends with Willie Shoemaker. :)
Has Maravich been mentioned?
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on August 14, 2024, 08:01:00 PM
Has Maravich been mentioned?
his career 3 point percentage is 66.7%
Quote from: rocket surgeon on August 14, 2024, 07:06:08 PM
gotta be wilt the stilt...didn't he brag about "anointing" over 10,000 women?
(https://mgoblog.com/sites/default/files/users/user18580/dynamite-drop-in-monty.jpg)
#M2N
Ethan Wragge vs buzz teams