The Ten Commandments must be displayed in Louisiana classrooms under requirement signed into law
https://apnews.com/article/louisiana-ten-commandments-displayed-classrooms-571a2447906f7bbd5a166d53db005a62
BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) — Louisiana has become the first state to require that the Ten Commandments be displayed in every public school classroom under a bill signed into law by Republican Gov. Jeff Landry on Wednesday.
The GOP-drafted legislation mandates that a poster-sized display of the Ten Commandments in "large, easily readable font" be required in all public classrooms, from kindergarten to state-funded universities.
Opponents question the law's constitutionality, warning that lawsuits are likely to follow. Proponents say the purpose of the measure is not solely religious, but that it has historical significance. In the law's language, the Ten Commandments are described as "foundational documents of our state and national government."
Not long after the governor signed the bill into law, civil rights groups and organizations that want to keep religion out of government promised to file a lawsuit challenging it.
The law prevents students from getting an equal education and will keep children who have different beliefs from feeling safe at school, the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Freedom from Religion Foundation said in a joint statement Wednesday afternoon.
"Even among those who may believe in some version of the Ten Commandments, the particular text that they adhere to can differ by religious denomination or tradition. The government should not be taking sides in this theological debate," the groups said.
Similar bills requiring the Ten Commandments be displayed in classrooms have been proposed in other states including Texas, Oklahoma and Utah. However, with threats of legal battles over the constitutionality of such measures, no state besides Louisiana has had success in making the bills law.
Legal battles over the display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms are not new.
In 1980, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a similar Kentucky law was unconstitutional and violated the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, which says Congress can "make no law respecting an establishment of religion." The high court found that the law had no secular purpose but rather served a plainly religious purpose.
"I can't wait to be sued," Mr. Landry said on Saturday at a Republican fund-raiser in Nashville, according to The Tennessean. And on Wednesday, as he signed the measure, he argued that the Ten Commandments contained valuable lessons for students.
"If you want to respect the rule of law," he said, "you've got to start from the original law giver, which was Moses."
No.
And this will end well.
Not yet. But a subset would like it to be.
Seems like a pretty mundane 1st amendment violation, you'd think.
Do people still say in before the
(https://cdn.britannica.com/65/185965-138-F0DD8AC1/look-John-Locke-A-Letter-Concerning-Toleration.jpg?w=400&h=225&c=crop)
Only 30% of people in the US regularly go to church and that falls every year. Hopefully this stuff dies down in my lifetime.
Explicitly unconstitutional under Stone v. Graham. Also, obviously calculated to be summarily enjoined and declared unconstitutional by a district court, for the 5th circuit to overturn the TRO, and for SCOTUS to be able to overturn Stone.
Probably will work too.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on June 19, 2024, 03:41:50 PM
Seems like a pretty mundane 1st amendment violation, you'd think.
They don't seem to care - just look at Landry's quote. They're betting that when it gets appealed up to the Supreme Court, Alito & the gang side with "godliness" over the Constitution.
And if they do happen to lose that bet, they can claim victimhood.
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 19, 2024, 03:59:49 PM
Do people still say in before the
(https://cdn.britannica.com/65/185965-138-F0DD8AC1/look-John-Locke-A-Letter-Concerning-Toleration.jpg?w=400&h=225&c=crop)
In before the
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Ugh8CG8TvPRBeE6bLT/giphy.webp?cid=790b7611g9t80umbqedph9ai430buxzuivsz6lnquaduttv7&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g)
I don't know, but something written by the finger of God, I wouldn't mess with.
Quote from: MU82 on June 19, 2024, 03:32:53 PM
The Ten Commandments must be displayed in Louisiana classrooms under requirement signed into law
https://apnews.com/article/louisiana-ten-commandments-displayed-classrooms-571a2447906f7bbd5a166d53db005a62
BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) — Louisiana has become the first state to require that the Ten Commandments be displayed in every public school classroom under a bill signed into law by Republican Gov. Jeff Landry on Wednesday.
The GOP-drafted legislation mandates that a poster-sized display of the Ten Commandments in "large, easily readable font" be required in all public classrooms, from kindergarten to state-funded universities.
Opponents question the law's constitutionality, warning that lawsuits are likely to follow. Proponents say the purpose of the measure is not solely religious, but that it has historical significance. In the law's language, the Ten Commandments are described as "foundational documents of our state and national government."
Not long after the governor signed the bill into law, civil rights groups and organizations that want to keep religion out of government promised to file a lawsuit challenging it.
The law prevents students from getting an equal education and will keep children who have different beliefs from feeling safe at school, the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Freedom from Religion Foundation said in a joint statement Wednesday afternoon.
"Even among those who may believe in some version of the Ten Commandments, the particular text that they adhere to can differ by religious denomination or tradition. The government should not be taking sides in this theological debate," the groups said.
Similar bills requiring the Ten Commandments be displayed in classrooms have been proposed in other states including Texas, Oklahoma and Utah. However, with threats of legal battles over the constitutionality of such measures, no state besides Louisiana has had success in making the bills law.
Legal battles over the display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms are not new.
In 1980, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a similar Kentucky law was unconstitutional and violated the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, which says Congress can "make no law respecting an establishment of religion." The high court found that the law had no secular purpose but rather served a plainly religious purpose.
"I can't wait to be sued," Mr. Landry said on Saturday at a Republican fund-raiser in Nashville, according to The Tennessean. And on Wednesday, as he signed the measure, he argued that the Ten Commandments contained valuable lessons for students.
"If you want to respect the rule of law," he said, "you've got to start from the original law giver, which was Moses."
lol, Moses the original law giver 😂😂😂
The Bible is great fiction. So is Star Wars but I don't want the Jedi books serving as a form of law
How did you determine that?
Proverbs 3:5-6
Quote from: NCMUFan on June 19, 2024, 05:07:47 PM
Proverbs 3:5-6
That's a great line. There's a lot in that book.
Quote from: NCMUFan on June 19, 2024, 04:23:29 PM
I don't know, but something written by the finger of God, I wouldn't mess with.
Moses saw God's ass
"Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:23 ESV)
NCMUFan
I'm with you.
Skatastrophy
Are you happy that only 30% of Americans attend Mass regularly?
Goose, so you'd be good with Koran doctrine being posted in public schools?
Also, you seem like a "small government" and "parent's rights" guy. You're ok with government choosing the religion that kids must worship? You're ok with "indoctrinating" kids as long as you happen to agree with the material?
Also, you're ok with using millions of dollars in taxpayer money to defend this policy when it's appealed all the way to the Supreme Court?
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 05:31:12 PM
NCMUFan
I'm with you.
Skatastrophy
Are you happy that only 30% of Americans attend Mass regularly?
I'm trying to remember about this guy in the New Testament, and I think I recall he was all about your service, kindness and your acts in your every day life is what the big guy cares about, not your attendance rate where you sit up and down on command and be seen.
I didn't see in the original article. Will this be the Catholic version of the 10 commandments or the protestant version? I need to know whether I am outraged or not.
Quote from: reinko on June 19, 2024, 05:45:11 PM
I'm trying to remember about this guy in the New Testament, and I think I recall he was all about your service, kindness and your acts in your every day life is what the big guy cares about, not your attendance rate where you sit up and down on command and be seen.
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men ... but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."
82
I 100% support anyone's religious choice and even those that choose to have no faith in their lives. I am not celebrating LA's decision, but not going to bash them for that decision.
I am a small government guy and respect decisions that are made that reflect the beliefs of individual state. I won't throw out a crazy analogy, but if state decided to do something completely against my beliefs but if reflected the beliefs of the citizens, I'm not going to bitch about it.
reinko
I agree that daily acts of kindness and service is how we all should live and the older I get the more I understand that. Not sure what that has to do with my question to Skatastrophy.
I guess I just assumed being a good person a daily basis did not need to be addressed. Thought that was a given.
I think attending a religious service should not be done out of requirement, but because you find it meaningful.
No.
But some of the populace wants it to be while some of the populace doesn't.
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 05:55:12 PM
82
I 100% support anyone's religious choice and even those that choose to have no faith in their lives. I am not celebrating LA's decision, but not going to bash them for that decision.
I am a small government guy and respect decisions that are made that reflect the beliefs of individual state. I won't throw out a crazy analogy, but if state decided to do something completely against my beliefs but if reflected the beliefs of the citizens, I'm not going to bitch about it.
reinko
I agree that daily acts of kindness and service is how we all should live and the older I get the more I understand that. Not sure what that has to do with my question to Skatastrophy.
I guess I just assumed being a good person a daily basis did not need to be addressed. Thought that was a given.
Will take your comment about being a good person as given 🤝
Now, on the small government thing, I've never gotten a straight answer on this. Why does "small" government always be at the state level? Why not at the county level, or city level? If cities or counties in LA want opt out of this, why can't they? I mean this is the definition of local rights?
I think an argument can be made that Sanctuary cities are actually following biblical teachings in regard to treatment of the immigrant.
Quote from: tower912 on June 19, 2024, 06:09:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that Sanctuary cities are actually following biblical teachings in regard to treatment of the immigrant.
Would Jesus have helped criminals?
We know he would have forgiven them.
Quote from: MU82 on June 19, 2024, 05:39:14 PM
Goose, so you'd be good with Koran doctrine being posted in public schools?
Also, you seem like a "small government" and "parent's rights" guy. You're ok with government choosing the religion that kids must worship? You're ok with "indoctrinating" kids as long as you happen to agree with the material?
Also, you're ok with using millions of dollars in taxpayer money to defend this policy when it's appealed all the way to the Supreme Court?
So MU82, say we never heard of the 10 Commandments and those 10 Commandments were just written as a poster and placed on the bulletin boards at the school. Would any of those 10 Commandments offend you or you object to?
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 05:55:12 PM
I 100% support anyone's religious choice and even those that choose to have no faith in their lives. I am not celebrating LA's decision, but not going to bash them for that decision.
I am a small government guy and respect decisions that are made that reflect the beliefs of individual state. I won't throw out a crazy analogy, but if state decided to do something completely against my beliefs but if reflected the beliefs of the citizens, I'm not going to bitch about it.
Thanks for the answer, Goose.
No state has a set religious doctrine. Religion is an individual thing - which one to follow (or none at all). It is not up to the state to impose Christianity on its citizens. This is Constitution 101, and we'll see if this Supreme Court will enforce the law of the land.
And if you are for small government, you absolutely should bash this new law. You can't get more big government than "You will follow this religion or else!"
Quote from: NCMUFan on June 19, 2024, 06:37:27 PM
So MU82, say we never heard of the 10 Commandments and those 10 Commandments were just written as a poster and placed on the bulletin boards at the school. Would any of those 10 Commandments offend you or you object to?
So NCMUFan, say we never heard of atheism and signs saying, "God does not exist!" were just written as a poster and placed on the bulletin boards at the school. Would that offend you?
Fluff
Going to a religious service should be meaningful and I thought that was a given. What does that have to do with anything?
reinko
I'm all for local governments handling their affairs, regardless if I agree with them or not. There are city government in SE WI that I do not agree with some of their calls, but respect their right to make the calls.
Quote from: MU82 on June 19, 2024, 06:40:15 PM
So NCMUFan, say we never heard of atheism and signs saying, "God does not exist!" were just written as a poster and placed on the bulletin boards at the school. Would that offend you?
No, I would just think that whoever wrote it was an idiot, then ask to have a poster that says "God exists" and move on.
Quote from: NCMUFan on June 19, 2024, 07:01:15 PM
No, I would just think that whoever wrote it was an idiot, then ask to have a poster that says "God exists" and move on.
Cool. Except I don't believe that you'd just move on. You'd be calling it to the principal's attention - as you well should.
As for your question, sorry, but I can't pretend that those who impose their religious beliefs on others don't exist. I wish they didn't exist; the world would be a much better place.
NCMUFan
I agree completely. That would not offend me and I would wonder who the idiot was that put it up. I am not easily offended and that poster would not move my needle, other than to make me chuckle.
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 06:42:37 PM
Fluff
Going to a religious service should be meaningful and I thought that was a given. What does that have to do with anything?
Well, when you said this...
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 05:31:12 PM
Are you happy that only 30% of Americans attend Mass regularly?
...why do you think that's the case?
Fluff
I have no idea how your question relates to my question to Skatastrophy. I assume everyone goes to a religious service for a meaningful experience. It appeared to me that Skatastrophy thought that was a good stat and I asked for clarification.
Again, what does your question or point have to do with my question?
Quote from: tower912 on June 19, 2024, 06:09:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that Sanctuary cities are actually following biblical teachings in regard to treatment of the immigrant.
Lots of arguments can be made.
I think governments having the right to have and enforce laws on immigration fall pretty easily into the "render unto Caesar" clause.
I am all about rendering unto Caesar, Lenny. For fun, please list the biblical verses that advocate fearing immigrants and treating them poorly.
Quote from: tower912 on June 19, 2024, 06:09:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that Sanctuary cities are actually following biblical teachings in regard to treatment of the immigrant.
I think you mean the illegal immigrants. Waitin' on da BOTUS lettin' in da Palestinians next, hey?
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 07:27:55 PM
I have no idea how your question relates to my question to Skatastrophy.
If you're going to use this opportunity to do your intentionally obtuse bit, then I'm not going to engage with you. Because it's pretty f*cking obvious.
Fluff
To be honest, I have no idea how your post on attending a religious service should be meaning relates to me question. I was curious if Skatastrophy thought 30% was a positive number, disappointing number or if they did not care number.
Religion should not be shoved down the throats of children.
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 05:31:12 PM
NCMUFan
I'm with you.
Skatastrophy
Are you happy that only 30% of Americans attend Mass regularly?
Not 30% of people attending mass, 30% regularly attend any religious service. And not every week even, but regular enough. That's a number that's continuing to drop which is a positive in the context of this thread.
The premise of the thread is asking the question if the Christofascists in the USA are trying to establish a theocracy. By definition they are, and hopefully they don't have the votes. As the attendance of religious services declines, so is the likelihood that there's ever a large enough voting block to continue supporting the religious far-right. Not all churches are the problem, but I don't have a better measure of attendance in specifically extremist congregations so the aggregated numbers will have to do.
Quote from: tower912 on June 19, 2024, 07:32:49 PM
I am all about rendering unto Caesar, Lenny. For fun, please list the biblical verses that advocate fearing immigrants and treating them poorly.
Why does having consequences for people who knowingly break federal laws equal treating said lawbreakers poorly? And which bible verses say that shielding those breaking legit laws is OK?
Re fear, people fear what they don't know. Not much in the way of vetting for illegals, hence fear. If most of those same people were entering legally the fear is pretty much eliminated.
Cool.
Some of the issues we all discuss on Scoop have a lot of nuance annd complexities. This really is not one of those. Either the First Amendment matters and it's followed, or America might as well not have a Constitution.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 19, 2024, 07:46:13 PM
Why does having consequences for people who knowingly break federal laws equal treating said lawbreakers poorly? And which bible verses say that shielding those breaking legit laws is OK?
Re fear, people fear what they don't know. Not much in the way of vetting for illegals, hence fear. If most of those same people were entering legally the fear is pretty much eliminated.
There are plenty of verses that say people should generally follow civil laws. There are also plenty of verses that mention ignoring laws that are unjust. Where that line lies depends on the reader.
I personally think that providing shelter to those who are oppressed or facing economic difficulty is more important than rigidly following our immigration laws.
And don't even bring up Leviticus.
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 06:42:37 PM
Fluff
Going to a religious service should be meaningful and I thought that was a given. What does that have to do with anything?
reinko
I'm all for local governments handling their affairs, regardless if I agree with them or not. There are city government in SE WI that I do not agree with some of their calls, but respect their right to make the calls.
Ok great, up next women's right to healthcare and abortion. Open it up to counties, cities, HOAs...
Quote from: tower912 on June 19, 2024, 08:10:46 PM
And don't even bring up Leviticus.
You better not be mixing fabrics, buddy.
Or eating most kinds of meat.
Good to see that the ACLU is suing Louisiana for being on bullchit
We are a Christian-based society. Our laws come from the respect that Christianity professes toward the value of an individual. Not killing, not stealing, not lying for example, are certainly Biblically-based and part of the fabric of American society. So yes, the foundation of Christianity forms the foundation of our legal system and the basis for the human rights we espouse as a country.
That said, I have a BIG problem with the notion of hanging the Ten Commandments in a classroom. We don't endorse religion in this country -- or at least we try not to.
As a practicing Roman Catholic growing up in what was then the Buckle of the Bible Belt (Nashville), the fundamentalist Christians truly forced their beliefs on us. In the early 1960s, before the Warren Court outlawed it, public school children were praying out loud every morning. Didn't matter whether the children were those of Brother MU 82, Islamic, Jewish or, God forbid and worst of all -- Catholic! You prayed (of course, we did too because I went to Catholic Schools, but that was a choice my parents made).
The Southern Church of Christ and Southern Baptists frowned on consumption of alcoholic beverage. So guess what? Until 1967, Metropolitan Nashville and Davidson County was D-R-Y, dry! Yeah, the capital of bachelorette parties had almost no place where an individual could buy a drink. And getting wine and spirits was a complex and often time-consuming process. Sumner County, home of Hendersonville and Gallatin, was the same way. It was religious organizations trying to evangelize through the law.
Look, I'm comfortable as a Catholic and I'll talk to anyone who wants to listen about it. But, let people be. Churches have the right and the obligation to teach the Word. But there's a line to be drawn at forcing people to practice your rituals. It makes those of us who don't share your view but are compelled to act uncomfortable and ultimately, angry.
Best thing that could happen in Louisiana is that those who espouse the values of the Ten Commandments lead by example and live by them. It will do far more to foster the word of God than posting some BS plaque in a classroom.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 19, 2024, 09:18:15 PM
We are a Christian-based society. Our laws come from the respect that Christianity professes toward the value of an individual. Not killing, not stealing, not lying for example, are certainly Biblically-based and part of the fabric of American society. So yes, the foundation of Christianity forms the foundation of our legal system and the basis for the human rights we espouse as a country.
These are in no way uniquely Christian values.
And to the contrary, many of the Founders were deeply skeptical of religion and worked to eliminate it from government institutions.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/index.html
Quote from: Pakuni on June 19, 2024, 09:41:40 PM
These are in no way uniquely Christian values.
I never said they were.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 19, 2024, 09:41:40 PM
These are in no way uniquely Christian values.
And to the contrary, many of the Founders were deeply skeptical of religion and worked to eliminate it from government institutions.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/index.html
Yeah agreed, but dgies point still stands.: The US' cultural power is in the plurality of religions and backgrounds of its people. No matter where our shared framework of morals and values originates, we agreed from the beginning not to codify any religion into our nation's laws.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 19, 2024, 09:44:58 PM
I never said they were.
I apologize if I misunderstood your post.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 19, 2024, 09:18:15 PM
Best thing that could happen in Louisiana is that those who espouse the values of the Ten Commandments lead by example and live by them. It will do far more to foster the word of God than posting some BS plaque in a classroom.
That's the gospel truth right there, my brother.
Quote from: Goose on June 19, 2024, 07:17:17 PM
NCMUFan
I agree completely. That would not offend me and I would wonder who the idiot was that put it up. I am not easily offended and that poster would not move my needle, other than to make me chuckle.
I don't think you are answering the right question. The real question is if Wisconsin passed a law stating that every public school classroom must display a poster that said "God does not exist", would it move your needle? That's the apple to apple comparison, not some random poster in a single classroom.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 19, 2024, 07:33:04 PM
I think you mean the illegal immigrants. Waitin' on da BOTUS lettin' in da Palestinians next, hey?
The door should be open to anyone.
nm covered
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 20, 2024, 01:00:06 AM
I don't think you are answering the right question. The real question is if Wisconsin passed a law stating that every public school classroom must display a poster that said "God does not exist", would it move your needle? That's the apple to apple comparison, not some random poster in a single classroom.
True. Thanks for amplifying what I said, TAMU.
I used similar wording as NCMU did in his silly hypothetical pretending that we never heard of the ten commandments. But yours is the apples-to-apples comparison, and Christians would go absolutely bonkers if Wisconsin (or any state) passed a law requiring an atheist phrase be displayed in every classroom.
And I wouldn't blame them.
Such a law would be clearly unconstitutional, as the Louisiana law is.
TAMU
If that happened in WI I would believe it must reflect the beliefs of more than 50% of the population and accept it. That said, I would think more than 50% of the population were idiots.
I have my beliefs and it would take a great deal to really move my needle. That said, it would make question the state of mankind if that was the case.
Quote from: Goose on June 20, 2024, 07:35:47 AM
TAMU
If that happened in WI I would believe it must reflect the beliefs of more than 50% of the population and accept it. That said, I would think more than 50% of the population were idiots.
The entire point of the Bill of Rights is to protect the rights of the citizens from the government. Hanging the poster that TAMU mentioned, or the Ten Commandments, is clearly a case of a government entity engaging in the establishment of a religion in violation of the first amendment. It doesn't matter if 1%...or 51%...or 99% agree with it. It's unconstitutional.
The separation of church and state is a grand myth, but this is too blatant for most to ignore. It will likely be overturned, but it might not be the slam dunk it should be.
And, neither the Bible nor Christianity are the basis of our laws and constitution. Neither created them nor truly and entirely live by them. That Moses line is pure gold...en calf.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 20, 2024, 07:49:34 AM
The entire point of the Bill of Rights is to protect the rights of the citizens from the government. Hanging the poster that TAMU mentioned, or the Ten Commandments, is clearly a case of a government entity engaging in the establishment of a religion in violation of the first amendment. It doesn't matter if 1%...or 51%...or 99% agree with it. It's unconstitutional.
Yep. The framers went out of their way to make sure America isn't purely a majority-rules nation. The Ellectoral College is a classic example. Again, we either follow the Constitution or we don't.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on June 20, 2024, 07:56:48 AM
The separation of church and state is a grand myth, but this is too blatant for most to ignore. It will likely be overturned, but it might not be the slam dunk it should be.
And, neither the Bible nor Christianity are the basis of our laws and constitution. Neither created them nor truly and entirely live by them. That Moses line is pure gold...en calf.
All true, but this really has nothing to do with the separation of church and state. It has to do with the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Unfortunately, lots of Americans want to skip right past No. 1 and get to their favorite Amendment, the one with the vague reference to a well-regulated militia.
I'm not sure why you thought it was a good idea to start this topic?