MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Uncle Rico on May 05, 2024, 08:33:24 AM
-
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/257560/archdiocese-of-new-orleans-suspected-of-child-sex-trafficking-warrant-shows
More disturbing news from the world of Catholicism
-
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/257560/archdiocese-of-new-orleans-suspected-of-child-sex-trafficking-warrant-shows
More disturbing news from the world of Catholicism
'Succession' actor bashes the Bible, calls religion a bad influence on humanity: 'People are so stupid'
https://www.foxnews.com/media/succession-actor-bashes-bible-calls-religion-bad-influence-humanity-people-stupid
-
'Succession' actor bashes the Bible, calls religion a bad influence on humanity: 'People are so stupid'
https://www.foxnews.com/media/succession-actor-bashes-bible-calls-religion-bad-influence-humanity-people-stupid
But what does Ja Rule think?
-
'Succession' actor bashes the Bible, calls religion a bad influence on humanity: 'People are so stupid'
https://www.foxnews.com/media/succession-actor-bashes-bible-calls-religion-bad-influence-humanity-people-stupid
Meh.
Logan Roy was a great TV character, but why should anyone care about Brian Cox's take on religion any more than that of a football player who thanks God for his game-winning touchdown?
-
Agreed.
-
Meh.
Logan Roy was a great TV character, but why should anyone care about Brian Cox's take on religion any more than that of a football player who thanks God for his game-winning touchdown?
But I do appreciate Brian Cox take on Buffalo’s fans.
https://dolphinstalk.com/2020/09/this-day-in-dolphins-history-bryan-cox-gives-the-one-finger-salute-to-buffalo/
-
OK folks, let's be realistic.
As much as the Roman Catholic Church talks about being created by Jesus and the Popes come straight down from God Him/Herself, the church consists of human beings. Human beings make mistakes, commit sins (both mortal and venial) and do things to which we should be ashamed.
That's as true in religion as it is in government, business, social services and every other element of human endeavor.
For too long, our Church has protected the institution of organized religion rather than the folks its supposed to protect -- the children of God. We've changed an awful lot in the last 150 years and inevitably, our church will change more as God reveals more to us. But to dump religious belief and the beauty that this belief is in its most basic form because of bad actors rejects a lot of what our world should be about.
As a practicing Roman Catholic, I still believe our church as a lot to learn about people and about what God has given us. But years ago, my high school was basically the center of priestly pedophilia while I was there. Several of my classmates were affected. But, there were so many fine people that I knew were incredible people of faith that I accepted their teaching and their view of the world, even as we knew some things were very wrong around us. Simply put, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
-
As a practicing Roman Catholic, I still believe our church as a lot to learn about people and about what God has given us. But years ago, my high school was basically the center of priestly pedophilia while I was there. Several of my classmates were affected. But, there were so many fine people that I knew were incredible people of faith that I accepted their teaching and their view of the world, even as we knew some things were very wrong around us. Simply put, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
This paragraph is…something.
-
OK folks, let's be realistic.
As much as the Roman Catholic Church talks about being created by Jesus and the Popes come straight down from God Him/Herself, the church consists of human beings. Human beings make mistakes, commit sins (both mortal and venial) and do things to which we should be ashamed.
That's as true in religion as it is in government, business, social services and every other element of human endeavor.
For too long, our Church has protected the institution of organized religion rather than the folks its supposed to protect -- the children of God. We've changed an awful lot in the last 150 years and inevitably, our church will change more as God reveals more to us. But to dump religious belief and the beauty that this belief is in its most basic form because of bad actors rejects a lot of what our world should be about.
As a practicing Roman Catholic, I still believe our church as a lot to learn about people and about what God has given us. But years ago, my high school was basically the center of priestly pedophilia while I was there. Several of my classmates were affected. But, there were so many fine people that I knew were incredible people of faith that I accepted their teaching and their view of the world, even as we knew some things were very wrong around us. Simply put, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Bloodsuckers.
-
Meh.
Logan Roy was a great TV character, but why should anyone care about Brian Cox's take on religion any more than that of a football player who thanks God for his game-winning touchdown?
Fair.
-
Dgies,
It’s not the Catholic belief or the parishioners that are the problem.
It is the organized crime aspect of the leadership. Historically, the Vatican has been evil whether we’re talking 1,000 years ago, 500 years ago or85 years ago. Why ANYONE would choose to be led by a group of pedophiles is beyond me.
Off subject - but how does autocorrect change Dgies to Shoes?
-
OK folks, let's be realistic.
As much as the Roman Catholic Church talks about being created by Jesus and the Popes come straight down from God Him/Herself, the church consists of human beings. Human beings make mistakes, commit sins (both mortal and venial) and do things to which we should be ashamed.
That's as true in religion as it is in government, business, social services and every other element of human endeavor.
For too long, our Church has protected the institution of organized religion rather than the folks its supposed to protect -- the children of God. We've changed an awful lot in the last 150 years and inevitably, our church will change more as God reveals more to us. But to dump religious belief and the beauty that this belief is in its most basic form because of bad actors rejects a lot of what our world should be about.
As a practicing Roman Catholic, I still believe our church as a lot to learn about people and about what God has given us. But years ago, my high school was basically the center of priestly pedophilia while I was there. Several of my classmates were affected. But, there were so many fine people that I knew were incredible people of faith that I accepted their teaching and their view of the world, even as we knew some things were very wrong around us. Simply put, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
I wouldn’t let a child be alone with a priest
-
Meh.
Logan Roy was a great TV character, but why should anyone care about Brian Cox's take on religion any more than that of a football player who thanks God for his game-winning touchdown?
I’ve also associated Cox with his role in Supertroopers. It was humorous to see him in Succession but think about Supertroopers.
-
Guys:
I understand your revulsion with the pedophilia and, if true, the allegations against the New Orleans archdiocese. I share your revulsion.
But to stress again, the church of God but run by people. We're imperfect and we all make mistakes -- some bigger than others.
I am a citizen of a nearly 250 year old country. For about 190 of those years, we either enslaved or tortured (or both) an entire race of people who, by our Constitution, were American citizens. We rounded up American citizens of Japanese ancestry and put them in concentration camps because we bizarrely feared disloyalty. We have done other things over the years as a nation and people that go against the very nature of our Constitution and laws. Most of us certainly aren't proud of these parts of our history.
The point is that as an American, I'm not proud of many things our country has done. But I'm still of the belief we're about the best thing going in our world today. So I try to change through voting, actions and advocacy the things I do not like. As a Catholic, I feel the same way. From the Crusades, to Bishops' torture chambers to being way too cozy with bad governments, our Church has a history that I believe is against many of the things were are taught in Scripture. We're human, despite what many clerics want us to believe about them. Hopefully, others who feel as I do will try to change our church from the inside.
As Catholics, both as individuals who've put the Gospels into practice, and as an institution, Roman Catholics feed, clothe, medicate and care for, educate and call for more social justice than about any other NGO in the world. That's what we as Catholics and Christians are about.
-
But to stress again, the church of God but run by people. We're imperfect and we all make mistakes -- some bigger than others.
Sounds like a 'get out of jail free' card.
Exactly the same rational that "christians" use to vote for a convicted sex offender.
-
Yeah the Catholic Church has done a lot of good and charitable work. But then it takes a position on things like IVF and makes you go…what?
My point here isn’t to debate IVF, but to point out that you can’t lift yourself up constantly as having THE answers to guide your life yet fall down so completely and repeatedly on pedophilia.
The Church should be grateful that so many care so much about it that people are willing to overlook the hypocrisy of its leadership. A lot of organizations do charitable work without burdening its supporters like that.
-
There is an underlying issue that would move this ongoing risk miles in the right direction.
Is your faith or the doctrines of the church fundamentally altered if celibacy were abolished?
To me it wouldn't affect much of anything but the underlying institutional problem. Consider that:
1) a priest is required to take a vow of celibacy but going in he gets little training on his sexuality or how to cope with the human urges which will still exist, in the face of this contrary to nature vow.
Then:
2) a priest may keep the vow without incident (but maybe it will have some side effects) congrats;
3) a priest will closet his vow breaking with straight sex, sometimes with vulnerable women;
4) a priest will closet his vow breaking by either having or beginning homosexual sex with other men, sometimes priests;
5) a priest will closet his vow breaking by pursuit and actions on feelings of pedophilia; or
6) like any discussion of sexual preference, there is a spectrum of the above categories which may arise over time
It would seem all church leaders were reared up and are rowing the same familiar boat of celibacy which leads them to instinctively protect the celibacy institution by internally recognizing that the above options have and will occur but that the myth of perfect celibacy, obedience to God and to holy vows made require the institution not only accommodate but make it policy to secrete vow breaking and leave victims behind in the world of such enforced silence. Regardless of the priest's chosen vow breaking category, or even vow compliance none have an incentive to break with the others, the shelter/meal ticket system, their leaders or the codes of silence.
A simple question arises...What if celibacy was abolished? What if sexual activity became an open book? Why not, in one action, eliminate the personal and institutional denial and secretion of vow breaking.
Sure, hate the sin but love the sinner. Why did we ever expect even on a vow taking that priests could achieve the perfect. I think less of someone hiding from the truth of fallibility and am happy to assist the honest.
My faith my love my devotion has never been improved one wit by celibacy. Actually, it seems arcane and quite peripheral to the core of Christianity...kind of like the circus show of the Vatican's incense pot swing.
Please avoid noting errors or picking at the periphery ....and answer:
Q: Why not just abolish celibacy?
-
Abolishing the vow of celibacy would be fine, but I doubt it solves the issue.
Very little of what we know about child sex abusers suggests they act out an inability to have relations with adults. They seek out children because that's what they want, not as a desperate alternative to a healthy, adult relationship.
I suspect historically, Catholic men with these inclinations have gone into the priesthood mistakenly believing it would cure, or at least control, these urges. And the Catholic church has done a woeful job of screening these people out before they take their vows and exposing/removing them after.
-
Guys:
I understand your revulsion with the pedophilia and, if true, the allegations against the New Orleans archdiocese. I share your revulsion.
But to stress again, the church of God but run by people. We're imperfect and we all make mistakes -- some bigger than others.
I am a citizen of a nearly 250 year old country. For about 190 of those years, we either enslaved or tortured (or both) an entire race of people who, by our Constitution, were American citizens. We rounded up American citizens of Japanese ancestry and put them in concentration camps because we bizarrely feared disloyalty. We have done other things over the years as a nation and people that go against the very nature of our Constitution and laws. Most of us certainly aren't proud of these parts of our history.
The point is that as an American, I'm not proud of many things our country has done. But I'm still of the belief we're about the best thing going in our world today. So I try to change through voting, actions and advocacy the things I do not like. As a Catholic, I feel the same way. From the Crusades, to Bishops' torture chambers to being way too cozy with bad governments, our Church has a history that I believe is against many of the things were are taught in Scripture. We're human, despite what many clerics want us to believe about them. Hopefully, others who feel as I do will try to change our church from the inside.
As Catholics, both as individuals who've put the Gospels into practice, and as an institution, Roman Catholics feed, clothe, medicate and care for, educate and call for more social justice than about any other NGO in the world. That's what we as Catholics and Christians are about.
dgies, at some point, isn't it time to say that organized religion is a problem. That isn't to say the religion needs to go out the window, but one can be a practicing Christian without the Catholic Church, or any of the other organized churches that have repeatedly run astray of what the Bible teaches.
There really isn't an organized religion not fraught with contradictions between the words they preach and the actions they take. But the best thing about faith and religion, is it starts with a pact between you and God, and doesn't necessarily need to rely on anyone else.
-
Eliminating celibacy is a major start.
The basic law of economic supply and demand applies to the priesthood as well as just about every other human endeavor. You eliminate 90 percent-plus of the potential candidates in your job pool and you end up with shortages and accepting folks into the seminary that you would not otherwise even bat an eye at. Celibacy is a bad idea that was started in the middle ages largely because married priests of the era were sinning in ways they ought not be sinning.
The second step is to allow single and married women to be priests. Last time I checked, Godliness is not defined by the existence of a prostate. I suspect we'd be a lot closer to having a fully functional, adequately staffed priesthood if ordaining women was accepted. Having women celebrate Mass, lead parishes and directly influence ritual in our faith would have the effect of softening further some of the harshness and, maybe just maybe, begin to lead toward a better understanding of a woman's role in society. God knows, we might even change our mind as a faith on birth control (heck, most of the faithful has).
At days end, we're still going to have scandal. At the parish to which my wife and I belong, our late pastor and his administrative assistant absconded with at least $1.5 million just four short years ago. They capitalized on bad accounting and nonexistent audit controls as well as a Pastor who violated Canon Law by not creating financial and operational oversight through Parish councils and finance committees. That stuff won't be stopped simply by allowing the whole of the Catholic universe into the leadership of our parishes and dioceses. But it's a start toward having a functional, 21st century community of God.
Brother Jockey, I'm not arguing there shouldn't be reform and the perpetrators of sexual violence against our youth not be severely punished. Nor am I arguing the church shouldn't change. Quite the contrary. The most notable pedophile priest who preyed on my class and classmates was eventually caught and spent the rest of his life where he belonged -- in a cage at the Tennessee State Prison in Cockrill Bend. He came out in a box and if there's a just God, he's toasting with Satan right now.
Brother Forgetful, Organized religion is like a gigantic consulting firm. It's job is to advise you on the best way to attain oneness with God. It's not like the Middle Ages, where it rules everything. You can decide in your wisdom to have a personal relationship with God, free of any organized religion, or you can align yourself with the teachings and the community of one or multiple religious organizations. Ultimately, the Catholic Church won't be judged on my ability to follow the teachings of Jesus. I will. I'm responsible for my own actions, my own sins and my own acceptance of my faith into my daily life.
My children have gone down your route. They live a faith-filled life but are not involved in any organized religion. That's their right and no matter what I think, they have a free will and a right to choose what's best for them. Despite the bumps in the road and the many contradictory behaviors of the Catholic Church, I remain a Catholic. Whatever the decision, I hope you find the spiritual comfort in your's.
-
My children have gone down your route. They live a faith-filled life but are not involved in any organized religion. That's their right and no matter what I think, they have a free will and a right to choose what's best for them. Despite the bumps in the road and the many contradictory behaviors of the Catholic Church, I remain a Catholic. Whatever the decision, I hope you find the spiritual comfort in your's.
Yeah, how this has impacted children is really the saddest part. My kids grew up very active in the Church, but between bad actors and the intersection of faith and politics, they have moved away in any number of different ways.
-
The conversation with my daughter started "How can you stand the hypocrisy?", as she knows that is one of my buttons. I never came up with an answer to dissuade her.
-
I suspect historically, Catholic men with these inclinations have gone into the priesthood mistakenly believing it would cure, or at least control, these urges. And the Catholic church has done a woeful job of screening these people out before they take their vows and exposing/removing them after.
This was my godfather. Catholic priest, gay, deeply conflicted with his call to the priesthood and his homosexuality. He had a relationship with a man (I have been told his partner was of age, but in my heart, I am not certain). Like most people from my dad’s generation (who has a gay sister) it is rarely discussed and even more rarely honestly.
I think abolishing celibacy is necessary, but I am a confirmed Catholic who is decidedly no longer one and didn’t raise my kids in any religion. While it may not rid the organization of pedophilia, I do think accepting sex between consenting priests/adults/partners gay or straight will relieve some of the conflict which could lead to less abuse. Remove the secrecy and the unnecessary restriction. The Catholic church must do something, not for its survival which I am not sure is a benefit, but because abuse of and rape of children is illegal, disgusting, and in their own religion’s words, evil.
-
I was unaware there's a link between celibacy and pedophilia
-
I was unaware there's a link between celibacy and pedophilia
Good point. I think the bigger issue with the celibacy rule is recruitment of priests. The pool of candidates would increase substantially, I would think. And the Church could be flexible: right now diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty. Order priests do (Franciscans, for example)(the jury is still out on Jesuits). Offer non celibacy as an option. Keep it if that’s your particular culture given the order.
-
Over the past several years I have become more involved with my Catholic faith than any time in my lifetime. Born and raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools from K-5 until my last day MU, but never was overly active in my faith. A ton of reasons caused me not to be active and most were good excuses in my mind for not being active. I have few regrets on why I was not involved and chalked up to not being ready to fully commit.
That said, I have worked extremely hard to separate my feelings of the leadership and my belief in God. To be honest, virtually every aspect of the leadership makes me sick and sad. I struggle to understand their behavior and the handling of the mess they have made. Furthermore, I cannot find myself praying for them and supporting them financially. I can live to be 100 years old and will never understand the mess they made and how it happened.
Sadly, while I understand my belief is a personal relationship I have with God, I do struggle not feeling part of an overall community. I go pray everyday, try and go to Mass every week, but feel like it just God and me. I am very happy that I have truly have God in my life, I feel like a bigger part is missing in my life.
I guess to sum it up, I am beyond disgusted with what has happened with the leadership and the lives that been ruined. I cannot understand how someone in a trusted position can be so evil, especially representing God's word. I am proud on my faith and will continue to try and build on it, but the leadership will never be trusted again by me.
-
Good point. I think the bigger issue with the celibacy rule is recruitment of priests. The pool of candidates would increase substantially, I would think. And the Church could be flexible: right now diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty. Order priests do (Franciscans, for example)(the jury is still out on Jesuits). Offer non celibacy as an option. Keep it if that’s your particular culture given the order.
The downside of allowing priests to marry/have families is how do you support them. The Catholic Church itself is extraordinarily wealthy because of what it owns, but parishes by and large are not. Now you're asking congregations not only to support a couple of single male priests living together, but families in individual homes. That's going to be a pretty substantial financial burden that doesn't exist today.
-
Just wanna voice appreciation for a really good conversation here with lots of thoughtful posts.
My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood. The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions. That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed. The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities. If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.
Removing the vow of celibacy is a step toward creating a more healthy conversation around sexuality in the clergy. IMHO it would also help lead to women in higher positions of church authority, which is also a must to help solve this problem.
-
I was unaware there's a link between celibacy and pedophilia
Me too...
-
MUBurrow
Great post and I agree completely. It makes me sad because I know a younger priest, he went to school with my kids, and I struggle understanding why he became a priest. He has offered very mature advice to me over the past few years when I needed it, but I struggle to respect his words because of the role he has at the parish. Basically, in my mind he is guilty by association and that troubles me that I feel that way. I am happy I trust God and sad I do not trust the people that share his words to me.
-
Sadly, while I understand my belief is a personal relationship I have with God, I do struggle not feeling part of an overall community. I go pray everyday, try and go to Mass every week, but feel like it just God and me. I am very happy that I have truly have God in my life, I feel like a bigger part is missing in my life.
After being away for a few years for a variety of reasons, my wife and I just joined a church in our faith tradition, and man does it feel good to be back worshiping in community. Just looking around on a beautiful Easter morning, it was moving to see people unified in their beliefs despite their differences in probably multitudes of ways. And this church is active in its community, reaching out to serve in a variety of ministries. We are excited about our future there.
-
Fluff
That is nice to hear. I probably did not state myself correctly. I do like being in Mass with other people of similar beliefs and I like that aspect a lot. I just feel my lack of trust for priests takes away some of the sense of community.
Full disclosure, several years ago when I started to practice my faith it took me months of going to Mass to feel like I belonged, and I kept going. It was on Palm Sunday the following year that I 100% felt like I belonged in this community, and it felt great. Our parish I has countless families that have 6+ kids and I love seeing the families every week.
-
After being away for a few years for a variety of reasons, my wife and I just joined a church in our faith tradition, and man does it feel good to be back worshiping in community. Just looking around on a beautiful Easter morning, it was moving to see people unified in their beliefs despite their differences in probably multitudes of ways. And this church is active in its community, reaching out to serve in a variety of ministries. We are excited about our future there.
maybe you could take reeeko, but i'd hate for them to kick you out so soon
-
maybe you could take reeeko, but i'd hate for them to kick you out so soon
I’m a fully practicing evangelical Christian
-
Just wanna voice appreciation for a really good conversation here with lots of thoughtful posts.
My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood. The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions. That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed. The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities. If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.
Removing the vow of celibacy is a step toward creating a more healthy conversation around sexuality in the clergy. IMHO it would also help lead to women in higher positions of church authority, which is also a must to help solve this problem.
This is such an outstanding post.
-
I was unaware there's a link between celibacy and pedophilia
I do think there is a ink between celibacy and gay priests, though.
-
My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood. The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions. That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed. The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities. If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.
I'm certainly not trying to create a direct parallel nor classify priests in the same way expressly, but the dynamic has always reminded me of the sexual dynamics of long term prisoners. Otherwise straight individuals begin engaging in homosexual activity due to a lack of outlet for normal sexual urges and behavior and its replaced with opportunity and power dynamics to create alternative, if not deviant, behavior. Same could be seen with priests, but with even more shame, confusion, and misplaced urges and outcomes.
-
I'm certainly not trying to create a direct parallel nor classify priests in the same way expressly, but the dynamic has always reminded me of the sexual dynamics of long term prisoners. Otherwise straight individuals begin engaging in homosexual activity due to a lack of outlet for normal sexual urges and behavior and its replaced with opportunity and power dynamics to create alternative, if not deviant, behavior. Same could be seen with priests, but with even more shame, confusion, and misplaced urges and outcomes.
Not a rhetorical question, but is there evidence to suggest that a significant number of heterosexual priests are engaging in homosexual activity with consenting adult males? Other priests?
Assuming we're not talking about priest-on-priest action, why would there be an easier outlet for homosexual behavior? And would the ease be so substantially greater that it would lead a straight guy into gay behavior?
-
Over the past several years I have become more involved with my Catholic faith than any time in my lifetime. Born and raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools from K-5 until my last day MU, but never was overly active in my faith. A ton of reasons caused me not to be active and most were good excuses in my mind for not being active. I have few regrets on why I was not involved and chalked up to not being ready to fully commit.
That said, I have worked extremely hard to separate my feelings of the leadership and my belief in God. To be honest, virtually every aspect of the leadership makes me sick and sad. I struggle to understand their behavior and the handling of the mess they have made. Furthermore, I cannot find myself praying for them and supporting them financially. I can live to be 100 years old and will never understand the mess they made and how it happened.
Sadly, while I understand my belief is a personal relationship I have with God, I do struggle not feeling part of an overall community. I go pray everyday, try and go to Mass every week, but feel like it just God and me. I am very happy that I have truly have God in my life, I feel like a bigger part is missing in my life.
I guess to sum it up, I am beyond disgusted with what has happened with the leadership and the lives that been ruined. I cannot understand how someone in a trusted position can be so evil, especially representing God's word. I am proud on my faith and will continue to try and build on it, but the leadership will never be trusted again by me.
GOOSE-------I had to read this post 3 times, because it struck me as something I could have written about myself .
God bless you , man.
-
The downside of allowing priests to marry/have families is how do you support them. The Catholic Church itself is extraordinarily wealthy because of what it owns, but parishes by and large are not. Now you're asking congregations not only to support a couple of single male priests living together, but families in individual homes. That's going to be a pretty substantial financial burden that doesn't exist today.
How do Protestant Churches handle it? I'd venture to guess that the average Protestant congregation is smaller than the average Catholic parish, so they have fewer members supporting their pastor.
Also, I doubt there would be a rule that the priest's spouse couldn't have a career. It wouldn't be any different than a regular married couple where one has a good job and the other person has a job that doesn't pay much, or is a volunteer position.
-
How do Protestant Churches handle it? I'd venture to guess that the average Protestant congregation is smaller than the average Catholic parish, so they have fewer members supporting their pastor.
Also, I doubt there would be a rule that the priest's spouse couldn't have a career. It wouldn't be any different than a regular married couple where one has a good job and the other person has a job that doesn't pay much, or is a volunteer position.
I can tell you that in many protestant churches the spouse usually works and often carries the benefits.
But I think many protestant churches are governed differently. Churches are their own entity and not "owned" by the larger church. For instance, in the Evangelical Lutheran church, the church is legally separate entity, governed by a Church Council, and it makes donations to the greater Church. So the central Church doesn't have near the resources that the Catholic Church has. Those churches can (and have) left the church to associate with another Lutheran church body in a manner consistent with its governing documents.
I don't know if that makes a difference but I think its a different model.
-
Dribbler
Thanks for the comment. Happy to see that I am not the only one with conflicting feelings on the topic. I really have just learned to talk about my faith over the past year, but it is not a topic I feel overly comfortable talking about and part of that is because of the mess the leaders have made. Again, happy to have some company in my thoughts.
-
Not a rhetorical question, but is there evidence to suggest that a significant number of heterosexual priests are engaging in homosexual activity with consenting adult males? Other priests?
Assuming we're not talking about priest-on-priest action, why would there be an easier outlet for homosexual behavior? And would the ease be so substantially greater that it would lead a straight guy into gay behavior?
You would gain from reading:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/gay-priests-catholic-church.html
-
You would gain from reading:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/gay-priests-catholic-church.html
Sure, but that's about gay priests. JWags post was about heterosexual priests engaging in homosexual behavior because there aren't other options, as with straight prisoners engaging in homosexual behavior behind bars.
-
How do Protestant Churches handle it? I'd venture to guess that the average Protestant congregation is smaller than the average Catholic parish, so they have fewer members supporting their pastor.
Also, I doubt there would be a rule that the priest's spouse couldn't have a career. It wouldn't be any different than a regular married couple where one has a good job and the other person has a job that doesn't pay much, or is a volunteer position.
Sister Chick:
My Lutheran friends tell me their Pastor is given a Parsonage Allowance in lieu of a rectory. Keep in mind that most Protestant congregations do not have the bureaucracy and infrastructure that Roman Catholic parishes have. Each year, a Roman Catholic parish is "taxed" for the support of a Diocese. Down here, we call it the Diocesan Service Appeal, or DSA. If he we exceed our DSA allocation, we share any excess with with Diocese. If we miss, we pay for it out of regular collections. Without the Diocese to support, we'd keep a lot more of what we collected. Ditto for other "taxes" to such places as Rome. Peter's Pence, for example, is an allocated target. If you don't give it, you pay it through ops. Protestants don't have that.
It's a whole lot better than it used to be, but.....
Other overhead issues also are different. Few Protestant congregations have schools (Milwaukee Lutherans being the notably exception) to support. Many Catholic parishes do. Those schools mostly are NOT self-supporting.
Ultimately, Protestant congregations exist in loose confederation with each other and are far more democratic than traditional Roman Catholic parishes. If you want to start one, you can so long as you have like-minded Christians willing to support the operation. Catholics are similar except, and it's a big exception, that if the Bishop says "yes" or "no", the Parish must act accordingly.
I'm sure wives of Protestant ministers have careers. But the wife of a Pastor in a Protestant congregation, from what I understand, is akin to being First Lady. Lots of work. Not a lot of pay!
One last point, to the brother scooper who said Catholic parishes are poor -- some are, a lot aren't. In our parish, the winter collection plate approaches $40,000 a week. The summer is probably closer to $20,000. Our church was built in 1984 and expanded in 1988. Our Parish property is some of the most desirable real estate on our island and is valued at acquisition cost -- about $17 million. Besides a Church, we have a large Parish Center and a Rectory with 3/4 of an acre of surrounding land, a pool and a beautiful view of the Indian River. Our late Pastor embezzled $1.5 million and it's like we hardly missed it!
-
Sure, but that's about gay priests. JWags post was about heterosexual priests engaging in homosexual behavior because there aren't other options, as with straight prisoners engaging in homosexual behavior behind bars.
Again, please read this article as it covers many related topics too...food for thought.
You may also enjoy the books by Richard Sipe (the expert voice on the phone in the movie “Spotlight”), to wit:
Sex, Priests, and Power: anatomy of a crisis, and
Celibacy in Crisis: A Secret World Revisited,
-
I'm sure wives of Protestant ministers have careers. But the wife of a Pastor in a Protestant congregation, from what I understand, is akin to being First Lady. Lots of work. Not a lot of pay!
Should probably use the term "spouse" here. About a third of Evangelical Lutheran pastors are women.
And the demands of a "first spouse" are not what they used to be. Almost all of them work outside the home.
-
Should probably use the term "spouse" here. About a third of Evangelical Lutheran pastors are women.
And the demands of a "first spouse" are not what they used to be. Almost all of them work outside the home.
I think you're correct. Too bad at least a third of our clergy isn't women!
-
Just wanna voice appreciation for a really good conversation here with lots of thoughtful posts.
My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood. The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions. That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed. The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities. If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.
Removing the vow of celibacy is a step toward creating a more healthy conversation around sexuality in the clergy. IMHO it would also help lead to women in higher positions of church authority, which is also a must to help solve this problem.
Burrow
The sex drive in all humans is powerful. Celibacy for the healthy is unrealistic and serves no greater purpose. If “sex” is the sin a whole lot of the clergy is guilty, not just the ones preying on young boys and girls. It just confuses the issue.
-
When I asked how Protestant churches handle it, it was basically a rhetorical question.
My point is that nearly every other major organized religion allows their clergy to marry and have families, so it is definitely doable.
And just because their is a huge, arcane hierarchy to support currently in the Catholic church, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I don't recall Jesus commanding his apostles to set it up like that. But it probably won't change.
-
When I asked how Protestant churches handle it, it was basically a rhetorical question.
My point is that nearly every other major organized religion allows their clergy to marry and have families, so it is definitely doable.
And just because their is a huge, arcane hierarchy to support currently in the Catholic church, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I don't recall Jesus commanding his apostles to set it up like that. But it probably won't change.
It will change when the priest shortage become so acute that the church becomes nonexistent in some areas.
Probably not in our lifetime, but it will happen.
-
goose-you make us MS boys proud to have you as a charter member-may God bless ya! great topic for our next summit
-
Rocket
We have a lot of topics to discuss at the next summit.
-
Thanks for the high-quality collegial discussion on the elimination of celibacy.
Now there is coffee and doughnuts in the lobby for all
-
Just reading this thread. Wonderful to see civility and thoughtful expression on what is such a difficult topic. Special applause to DG and Goose.
-
When I asked how Protestant churches handle it, it was basically a rhetorical question.
My point is that nearly every other major organized religion allows their clergy to marry and have families, so it is definitely doable.
And just because their is a huge, arcane hierarchy to support currently in the Catholic church, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I don't recall Jesus commanding his apostles to set it up like that. But it probably won't change.
I don't think anyone is suggesting it's impossible. Just suggesting it's going to be a challenge to find young family men (or women) eager to work a full-time job and try to raise a family for compensation in the neighborhood of minimum wage. Even with a working spouse (and now you're talking about child care costs), there are plenty places where priests simply won't be able to afford living in the communities they serve. Tough raising a family anywhere on the North Shore on a priest's salary.
What you're more likely to see, IMO, is older people making a late-life career change after their kids have moved on and they've built up a bit of a nest egg. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
-
I am pretty sure the Church could compensate a married priest with a family. They have proven to have very deep pockets when they needed to pay off victims. I would gladly prove financial support to my parish if the money was being used properly.
-
One fascinating question that's arisen has been approaching priests for guidance or help on our everyday life. Some of you have said you can never trust a priest again and I understand that, given what's happened in our church. Given what's happened with some Protestant congregations, I'm sure some of our Protestant brothers and sisters are saying the same thing!
But the interesting link is the way the ordained ministry in our church reacts with the congregation at large and, frankly, whether most of these people have a clue what's happening on our side of the altar rail. I'm arguing, they don't!
Priests are few and parishes are big. So the notion that each household in a congregation is on a first name basis with the priests of the parish is quaint and also quite ridiculous. Unless you're a financial heavy hitter or extremely active in your parish, chance are none of the clergy knows you. Without that relationship, it's tough to rely on the ministry for anything other than canned advice from some resource parishes have.
Conversely, because Priests live in their own world, they are oblivious to the challenges the people of God face daily. Again, canned advice that doesn't really work.
At the very least, married men and ordained women will bring a broader perspective to Church leadership and better allow the church to serve its people. It will force our leadership into the community and ensure a real world perspective, especially if wives are working, children are griping and the dog needs to be put out!
-
I don't think anyone is suggesting it's impossible. Just suggesting it's going to be a challenge to find young family men (or women) eager to work a full-time job and try to raise a family for compensation in the neighborhood of minimum wage. Even with a working spouse (and now you're talking about child care costs), there are plenty places where priests simply won't be able to afford living in the communities they serve. Tough raising a family anywhere on the North Shore on a priest's salary.
What you're more likely to see, IMO, is older people making a late-life career change after their kids have moved on and they've built up a bit of a nest egg. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
All I know is that the number of people (both men and women) who would consider the priesthood if it weren't for the whole celibacy thing is greater than zero. If the church wants to survive, it needs to start considering its options.
-
I don't think anyone is suggesting it's impossible. Just suggesting it's going to be a challenge to find young family men (or women) eager to work a full-time job and try to raise a family for compensation in the neighborhood of minimum wage. Even with a working spouse (and now you're talking about child care costs), there are plenty places where priests simply won't be able to afford living in the communities they serve. Tough raising a family anywhere on the North Shore on a priest's salary.
What you're more likely to see, IMO, is older people making a late-life career change after their kids have moved on and they've built up a bit of a nest egg. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Its fairly common for Protestant churches to have a pastor's house on the property (every one I was ever a member of growing up and all others in the communities were the same), so I wonder if a similar solution would need to be developed. I'd think the salary is more palatable if you don't have housing costs involved.
-
All I know is that the number of people (both men and women) who would consider the priesthood if it weren't for the whole celibacy thing is greater than zero. If the church wants to survive, it needs to start considering its options.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
-
dgies
I am very conflicted on my trust of Priests. While I am very disappointed in what has happened I really, really, really want to trust the words of a Priest. I guess I take the words with caution, but there definitely is comfort in their words. This is a struggle that I do not like having and try to find some level of trust. It really sucks that in mind that some guilt by association just won't go completely away.
-
Its fairly common for Protestant churches to have a pastor's house on the property (every one I was ever a member of growing up and all others in the communities were the same), so I wonder if a similar solution would need to be developed. I'd think the salary is more palatable if you don't have housing costs involved.
Many parishes would have rectories that could be converted to a more family-friendly house.
-
Many parishes would have rectories that could be converted to a more family-friendly house.
Sure, for one priest/family.
What about the 1-2 others that typically live there?
I'm all for married priests with families. But there are huge financial implications that make it a trickier proposition than some wish to believe.
-
Sure, for one priest/family.
What about the 1-2 others that typically live there?
I'm all for married priests with families. But there are huge financial implications that make it a trickier proposition than some wish to believe.
How many parishes have more than one priest these days?
-
How many parishes have more than one priest these days?
Our Parish in Libertyville in the Archdiocese of Chicago had three. All were foreign born and one could barely understand two of them. The foreign-born priests had no clue about Middle-Class America! During my time there, I'm not sure they wanted to learn.
In Vero Beach, the Diocese of Palm Beach, we soon will have three. Our Pastor has doubled as Principal of the nearby Catholic High School (in Ft. Pierce, FL). We have a newly ordained Associate starting July 1 and we have a third priest (the best of the lot) who is a retired Diocese of Brooklyn priest who lives in our parish. We have a fourth Paulist priest who is part of a local community of priests who says Mass at our Parish on Sunday.
-
How many parishes have more than one priest these days?
I imagine it varies widely by location and size of the congregation.
My parish has three, for 3,500 registered families. The parish I grew up in, which is a little larger, also has three.
The Archdiocese of Chicago has 672 diocesan priests and 379 religious priests for 216 parishes. Obviously not all of those priests are assigned to a particular parish, but I'd bet nearly all have at least two.
On the other hand, many rural Catholic parishes share a priest.
-
Priests are human. (I make the same argument about cops) If you spend time with them, you get a sense of them. I have been fortunate to have good priests in my life. Sadly, one died of COVID and one had to retire early due to long COVID. Alas.
I have had priests in my life that I instantly disliked. I avoided them.
From a spirituality standpoint, like any relationship, mine with God evolves. I pray many times a day, carry on a conversation with him much of the time. Sometimes, I feel like he speaks back. Sometimes, I am mad at him, others, he is disappointed with me. But I consistently feel nudged toward loving my neighbor, railing against false prophets, seeing how many laughs I
can get from strangers during our daily interactions.
For whatever reason God always finds a way to send a message when I act in a truly selfish manner. Often comically so. So I try not to.
That will not change, regardless of the human construct I choose to spend my Sunday morning in.
The Lutheran minister who officiated my wedding is a woman. I greatly enjoyed my very Catholic side of the congregation wrapping their heads around it.
-
I imagine it varies widely by location and size of the congregation.
My parish has three, for 3,500 registered families. The parish I grew up in, which is a little larger, also has three.
The Archdiocese of Chicago has 672 diocesan priests and 379 religious priests for 216 parishes. Obviously not all of those priests are assigned to a particular parish, but I'd bet nearly all have at least two.
On the other hand, many rural Catholic parishes share a priest.
A couple of comments.
In Oak Park, we have 4 Catholic churches. Until two years ago, there were four parishes. After the Renew My Church process, there are two parishes with two churches each. Six months ago, the pastor (foreign born) of one of the two remaining parishes recognized that he was not good at the pastor's role. So, we now have one pastor for all 4 churches. And one other priest officially assigned (a second has just been moved). We are lucky to have lots of other priests who help, a few of them who live in one or the other of the rectories, including one jesuit and a claretion.
And the lay community has stepped up in a huge way, not only with helping to run the day to day activities that always have been in place (and coordinating or consolidating programs like some aspects of religious ed, seniors group activities etc), but also expanding the social services offered, in particular, to our neighbors on the West Side, and with a very successful transitional migrant ministry, which played a pivotal role in transitioning to permanent housing ALL of the migrant's who came to Oak Park from Chicago last fall. Part of those plan took advantage of under or unused space (rectory and offices at one church, school building at the one school that was no longer in use etc).
It will continue to be a challenge (especially the inevitable second step when physical plant of a couple of the churches is sold), and I worry about our pastor's potential burnout, but the recent process has been heartening.
On the issue of foreign born priests. Of course many are wonderful, but several years ago the Arch in Chicago stopped recruiting/accepting foreign born/raised priests who have not been ordained for at least 10 years. Several classes of priests from 10 to 20 years ago are almost all now out of the priesthood, for a myriad of reasons. They are back to recruiting in colleges etc.
-
tower
I love your communication with God. I have a very similar daily communication pattern with God. Over the course of the past several years I have had some difficult times and talking with God made my life feel much better. While I am not above asking for help, every night I tell God to take care of any of the 7+ billion people on this planet that needs His help more than I do. In a strange way it gives me peace each night knowing that I am blessed and that others need His help more than I do.
As I noted yesterday, my relationship with God is somewhat new, but really glad that I have relationship in my life. To be honest, I could not imagine a life without that relationship. One thing I have learned, we all have our reasons for being active or inactive with our Faith and I respect both sides. Thankfully, I think God has been a great addition to my life.
-
I imagine it varies widely by location and size of the congregation.
On the other hand, many rural Catholic parishes share a priest.
The Diocese of Superior, WI, which covers most of Northwest Wisconsin, is a prime example.
They've had a priest shortage up there for years. My parents had a home in Solon Springs, WI, about 35 miles south of Superior. There were sister parishes in Gordon and Minong, WI. Between the three parishes, which from top to bottom are about 22 miles apart, they had one priest who said Mass at all three parishes.
Rural Douglas and Washburn Counties are typical of the problems rural priests face -- lots of distance and modest amounts of Catholics whose spiritual needs are just as important as city dwelling Catholics. That's going to lead to burnout, as Brother Legs pointed out for Oak Park.
In Superior itself, most of the parishes, including the Cathedral of Christ the King, share priests with other Catholic congregations.
-
Goose, every night, I say a decade of the rosary, thank God for all of the gifts that have been bestowed on me, and pray for wisdom, courage, patience, strength, and discernment.
-
tower
That is time well spent, imo.
-
Out parish has been without a pastor since the first of the year due to long COVID/early retirement. We are curious to see what the diocese ends up doing. IMO, parishes are going to close/merge. The questions will be how to manage the schools and which has the most desirable real estate.
-
Sadly my MIL's parish will be closing in the next 6-9 months. It has a mainstay in her life since they moved here in 1978 and she has attended daily Mass 99% of the days she is lived here. She was choir director, music teacher at the school and the closing hit the family hard.
On a sidenote, Pat Connaughton bought the property, and his real estate company is building the apartment complex on the land.
-
Sadly my MIL's parish will be closing in the next 6-9 months. It has a mainstay in her life since they moved here in 1978 and she has attended daily Mass 99% of the days she is lived here. She was choir director, music teacher at the school and the closing hit the family hard.
On a sidenote, Pat Connaughton bought the property, and his real estate company is building the apartment complex on the land.
That last sentence is the most ND thing I've ever read.
-
Murphy's
That is a great call!!
-
That last sentence is the most ND thing I've ever read.
I'm assuming this is in reference to the St. Bernard's property? If so, I didn't know Pat bought that.
-
No
Yes, St. Bernard’s.
-
I live 4 blocks from St. Bernard's. I feel bad and will miss it----a vital part of the community.
As far as Connaughton, I guess an apartment complex is better than a Kwik Trip.
-
I don't think that reconsidering celibacy is going to do much to fix the priest shortage. Given that most who are called to vocations were Traditional Latin Mass attendees rather than Norvus Ordo attendees, perhaps the solution might be to expand TLM offerings. Too bad this current pope hates the Traditional Latin Mass.
https://liturgyguy.com/2018/10/08/vocations-foundations/
-
I don't think that reconsidering celibacy is going to do much to fix the priest shortage. Given that most who are called to vocations were Traditional Latin Mass attendees rather than Norvus Ordo attendees, perhaps the solution might be to expand TLM offerings. Too bad this current pope hates the Traditional Latin Mass.
https://liturgyguy.com/2018/10/08/vocations-foundations/
That's a....take. I think you and your article has causation and corrolation mixed up
-
I don't think that reconsidering celibacy is going to do much to fix the priest shortage. Given that most who are called to vocations were Traditional Latin Mass attendees rather than Norvus Ordo attendees, perhaps the solution might be to expand TLM offerings. Too bad this current pope hates the Traditional Latin Mass.
https://liturgyguy.com/2018/10/08/vocations-foundations/
“We should grown the game of basketball by taking away the shot clock and the three point line.”
-
I don't think that reconsidering celibacy is going to do much to fix the priest shortage. Given that most who are called to vocations were Traditional Latin Mass attendees rather than Norvus Ordo attendees, perhaps the solution might be to expand TLM offerings. Too bad this current pope hates the Traditional Latin Mass.
https://liturgyguy.com/2018/10/08/vocations-foundations/
completely agree here jutaw-there are so many young men who...gasp...long for the traditional. it doesn't mean they want to return saying masses in Latin, but there remains certain key things they would like to retain and maintain. exactly which ones, you'd have to ask them.
for further incite into the implosion of the Catholic priests implosion, check out the book, "good bye good men" it tells the story of how many good men could not advance within the seminary's ranks thus move on within the education system toward priesthood if they didn't "go along" with the new status quo which included some very nefarious activities. milwaukee's(st Francis de sales) and Hales corner's (sacred heart) seminaries are referenced often
-
Dribbler
I sent you a PM.
-
https://www.christianpost.com/news/under-1-of-catholics-agree-with-sanctity-of-life-teachings-data.html
We are all cafeteria Catholics. I remember having this argument with Chicos. How many Catholics are: Anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia, pro-immigrant, pro-poor, anti-gay unions, pro-environment? Not very many.
I know that if my parish gets a young rad-trad priest, I will probably grind my teeth for my son's last year of Catholic high school and then go parish shopping.
-
tower
It is not easy to be all in Catholic these days. There is a good number of people at my parish that are all in, but their beliefs are not well received by everyone in our parish.
-
completely agree here jutaw-there are so many young men who...gasp...long for the traditional. it doesn't mean they want to return saying masses in Latin, but there remains certain key things they would like to retain and maintain. exactly which ones, you'd have to ask them.
for further incite into the implosion of the Catholic priests implosion, check out the book, "good bye good men" it tells the story of how many good men could not advance within the seminary's ranks thus move on within the education system toward priesthood if they didn't "go along" with the new status quo which included some very nefarious activities. milwaukee's(st Francis de sales) and Hales corner's (sacred heart) seminaries are referenced often
That book was all the rage about 20 years ago when people tried to blame liberals for the Church sex abuse scandal. But I think the last couple of decades show that the scandal was systemic in nature, and knew no traditional leanings.
Furthermore, the suggestion that there is no room for orthodox young men in the seminaries really doesn't jibe with what I have seen from younger priests.
-
That book was all the rage about 20 years ago when people tried to blame liberals for the Church sex abuse scandal. But I think the last couple of decades show that the scandal was systemic in nature, and knew no traditional leanings.
Furthermore, the suggestion that there is no room for orthodox young men in the seminaries really doesn't jibe with what I have seen from younger priests.
Everything is a conspiracy, you see. It extended across the globe as part of a vast liberal plot.
By no means could the church itself or the religion itself be culpable.
Systemic? Hogwash. The liberals caused it.
-
tower
It is not easy to be all in Catholic these days. There is a good number of people at my parish that are all in, but their beliefs are not well received by everyone in our parish.
Goose, the challenge is being all in when taking into account modern politics. Catholic teachings on life as well as social teachings are consistent. However, when viewed through a political lens, they are all over the spectrum and seemingly contradictory. Preferential option for the poor, pro immigration AND anti gay marriage?!? Pro free market AND pro state control guaranteeing the rights of the worker as well as making sure the poor are taken care of? Because we are also political creatures, we pick and choose the Catholic teachings that buttress our political thought and disregard the rest.
I don't claim to have the answer. I just want us to be self aware before labeling others. Own your (stuff).
-
if they didn't "go along" with the new status quo which included some very nefarious activities.
more nefarious than trusted religious leaders raping little boys, with the church covering up the scandal for decades and decades? please tell us more ...
-
That was happening in the seminaries, too.
-
https://www.christianpost.com/news/under-1-of-catholics-agree-with-sanctity-of-life-teachings-data.html
We are all cafeteria Catholics. I remember having this argument with Chicos. How many Catholics are: Anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia, pro-immigrant, pro-poor, anti-gay unions, pro-environment? Not very many.
I know that if my parish gets a young rad-trad priest, I will probably grind my teeth for my son's last year of Catholic high school and then go parish shopping.
My friend had a young trad priest show up (Madison and Catholic) and she (gay) was made to feel very unwelcome and is now trying to come to terms with that.
Probably a huge mistake by the parish considering she was an active young member and taught Sunday school and led many excursions and youth outreach.
-
completely agree here jutaw-there are so many young men who...gasp...long for the traditional. it doesn't mean they want to return saying masses in Latin, but there remains certain key things they would like to retain and maintain. exactly which ones, you'd have to ask them.
for further incite into the implosion of the Catholic priests implosion, check out the book, "good bye good men" it tells the story of how many good men could not advance within the seminary's ranks thus move on within the education system toward priesthood if they didn't "go along" with the new status quo which included some very nefarious activities. milwaukee's(st Francis de sales) and Hales corner's (sacred heart) seminaries are referenced often
What very nefarious activities?
-
Goose, the challenge is being all in when taking into account modern politics. Catholic teachings on life as well as social teachings are consistent. However, when viewed through a political lens, they are all over the spectrum and seemingly contradictory. Preferencetial option for the poor, pro immigration AND anti gay marriage?!? Pro free market AND pro state control guaranteeing the rights of the worker as well as making sure the poor are taken care of? Because we are also political creatures, we pick and choose the Catholic teachings that buttress our political thought and disregard the rest.
I don't claim to have the answer. I just want us to be self aware before labeling others. Own your (stuff).
Tower, this is a very good point and something most folks in the secular world and probably most of our bishops just don't get.
The late Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago, for example, spoke of the seamless garment of life. It meant being against abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia and tending to the physical and spiritual needs of all of God's people. Depending on the specific issue, the Cardinal's positions were either wildly conservative or crazy liberal.
We had a friend in Libertyville who once asked my Democratic-focused wife, "how can you be a Catholic and a Democrat?" To which my wife sternly responded, "how can you be a Catholic and a Republican?"
Most of us who are followers of Jesus tend to formulate our politics, at least in part, through the teachings of Scripture. We don't always succeed in getting to where we're prompted by the teachings of Jesus and our church, but dare I say, we try. Last Sunday's Gospel was quite clear in this matter. Jesus told us, "Love One Another!"
-
more nefarious than trusted religious leaders raping little boys, with the church covering up the scandal for decades and decades? please tell us more ...
read the book
-
That book was all the rage about 20 years ago when people tried to blame liberals for the Church sex abuse scandal. But I think the last couple of decades show that the scandal was systemic in nature, and knew no traditional leanings.
Furthermore, the suggestion that there is no room for orthodox young men in the seminaries really doesn't jibe with what I have seen from younger priests.
everything isn't absolute but yes that was a big part of it. the seminaries were a mess
-
read the book
Thanks for either refusing to answer the question or being unable to answer the question (or, more likely, both).
I'm gonna go with thousands of little boys raped by priests, with the Catholic Church covering it up for decades, being the most nefarious thing perpetrated by them in my lifetime until proven otherwise.
Thankfully, talented, hard-working journalists uncovered the scandal.
-
tower
It is not easy to be all in Catholic these days. There is a good number of people at my parish that are all in, but their beliefs are not well received by everyone in our parish.
I guess I am unapologetically an "all-in" Catholic. I don't really give a crap what anyone else thinks about that because, at the end of the day, I am trying to give myself the best possible shot to get into Heaven.
-
I guess I am unapologetically an "all-in" Catholic. I don't really give a crap what anyone else thinks about that because, at the end of the day, I am trying to give myself the best possible shot to get into Heaven.
Maybe its the Protestant in me, but that strikes me as an odd mindset. Not the whole getting into Heaven part, but feeling that you have to do or believe certain things to be given a ticket that someone else who doesn't do or believe certain things doesn't get.
-
Tower, this is a very good point and something most folks in the secular world and probably most of our bishops just don't get.
The late Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago, for example, spoke of the seamless garment of life. It meant being against abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia and tending to the physical and spiritual needs of all of God's people. Depending on the specific issue, the Cardinal's positions were either wildly conservative or crazy liberal.
We had a friend in Libertyville who once asked my Democratic-focused wife, "how can you be a Catholic and a Democrat?" To which my wife sternly responded, "how can you be a Catholic and a Republican?"
Most of us who are followers of Jesus tend to formulate our politics, at least in part, through the teachings of Scripture. We don't always succeed in getting to where we're prompted by the teachings of Jesus and our church, but dare I say, we try. Last Sunday's Gospel was quite clear in this matter. Jesus told us, "Love One Another!"
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, as my kingdom is not of this world.
The founding fathers threw off the yoke of a state (king) sponsored and paid for religion (Church of England) in favor of a separation of Church and state. The idea was good.
In matters of state, governance and the laws of man we focus on civilized man's relationship with other men involving solely this mortal coil. Because the paths of the millions vary so much, modern civil governance functions best with a free information flow, and a well-informed citizenry driving to compromise and consensus. Imperfect as the public governmental product resulting, at least we then know it is the product of all of us, including many with whom we may not agree. It works until it doesn't and then it will change. I am quite comfortable that democratic governance will never reflect my personal belief, nor should it as good governance involves compromise to the views of both majority and minority, which our republic is well structured to accommodate and protect.
On the other hand, my faith and relation with God is purely personal. I bear an anachronistic view that no man may tell another what he is to believe in matters of faith. Please don't ever let my religious beliefs (or what I post here) influence yours. I am the loner who loves a quiet seat alone in the church loft. I have no problem with my personal beliefs viz politics. My relationship with God is highly personal, faith driven and uncompromising. In politics its interpersonal, ie my relationship and interaction with other men, so by definition its imperfect, accepting of compromise for the good of all. I strive to keep them totally separated.
Church state separation is equally important to the success of religion. Religions throughout history are diminished and get off their original exquisite central spiritual message by involvement in man's affairs. Early Christians struggled on Jewish law adherence including as to circumcision, as their new religion would be outed in the secular public baths. The New Testament is silent on gays...gotta rely on the Torah..Deuteronomy(sp?)...while there meander through the other dietary and health laws now considered arcane. The Koran starts out good then watch the struggles after Md. becomes the earthly leader of Mecca and must impose laws on men. Religion meets its lofty higher than man goals by staying in its lane, and above the earthly fray of politics.
BTW sorry for the tone here. It should be more muted and gentlemanly, I know.
-
Thanks for either refusing to answer the question or being unable to answer the question (or, more likely, both).
I'm gonna go with thousands of little boys raped by priests, with the Catholic Church covering it up for decades, being the most nefarious thing perpetrated by them in my lifetime until proven otherwise.
Thankfully, talented, hard-working journalists uncovered the scandal.
yes there happen to be a few good hard working, honest journalists, what happened?? michael rose committed a flagrant act of journalism. i wish we had more like him. unfortunately, those who preach for DEI only mean their kind of DEI
yes, we all know about the the tragic and evil things perpetrated by the catholic church. no need to dance on that pile of excrement for your enjoyment. i sure hope your high priests have not...oh yeah, you don't believe in anything
note, these are sick people obviously, but remember...why do they rob the "banks"? because that's where the "money" is
-
yes there happen to be a few good hard working, honest journalists, what happened?? michael rose committed a flagrant act of journalism. i wish we had more like him. unfortunately, those who preach for DEI only mean their kind of DEI
yes, we all know about the the tragic and evil things perpetrated by the catholic church. no need to dance on that pile of excrement for your enjoyment. i sure hope your high priests have not...oh yeah, you don't believe in anything
note, these are sick people obviously, but remember...why do they rob the "banks"? because that's where the "money" is
Good effing god
9 out of 10
-
Good effing god
9 out of 10
(https://y.yarn.co/3b9af993-9704-4509-bf67-4b8b09fc61f7_text.gif)
-
yes there happen to be a few good hard working, honest journalists, what happened?? michael rose committed a flagrant act of journalism. i wish we had more like him. unfortunately, those who preach for DEI only mean their kind of DEI
yes, we all know about the the tragic and evil things perpetrated by the catholic church. no need to dance on that pile of excrement for your enjoyment. i sure hope your high priests have not...oh yeah, you don't believe in anything
note, these are sick people obviously, but remember...why do they rob the "banks"? because that's where the "money" is
Must be easy to live a life where you can just blame “the liberals” for everything and not have to engage in any intelligent discourse or self reflection.
-
Good effing god
9 out of 10
what?? musta been something I said?
I thought 9 out of 10 is good, no? sup leeeko ?
-
oh yeah, you don't believe in anything
I believe in lots of things:
Be kind to others. Comfort those less fortunate. Welcome strangers. Treat others as you’d like to be treated. Demand that people in power earn our respect, and respect and support those who do earn it. Listen to your parents. Be true to your spouse or significant other. Admit mistakes and show contrition. And many more things that I believe in because they are the right thing to do, not because a religion mandates it or a more pleasant afterlife supposedly depends on it.
You might try some of that, too. Or you can look down on others just because they don’t believe what you do. It’s your choice.
note, these are sick people obviously, but remember...why do they rob the "banks"? because that's where the "money" is
This is nonsensical gibberish even for you.
-
I believe in lots of things:
Be kind to others. Comfort those less fortunate. Welcome strangers. Treat others as you’d like to be treated. Demand that people in power earn our respect, and respect and support those who do earn it. Listen to your parents. Be true to your spouse or significant other. Admit mistakes and show contrition. And many more things that I believe in because they are the right thing to do, not because a religion mandates it or a more pleasant afterlife supposedly depends on it.
You might try some of that, too. Or you can look down on others just because they don’t believe what you do. It’s your choice.
This is nonsensical gibberish even for you.
ho boy...if this in't a pot-kettle statement of the century
gibberish? I like to think of it as thought provoking-maybe someday I'll explain it to those of you from Rio linda, but has something to do with pedophiles and sex offenders and why they choose the jobs they do...it's for the children dumb...
-
ho boy...if this in't a pot-kettle statement of the century
gibberish? I like to think of it as thought provoking-maybe someday I'll explain it to those of you from Rio linda, but has something to do with pedophiles and sex offenders and why they choose the jobs they do...it's for the children dumb...
Your children must be proud.
-
gibberish? I like to think of it as thought provoking
This is classic
-
Are there drag shows in the Catholic churches these days?
-
ho boy...if this in't a pot-kettle statement of the century
gibberish? I like to think of it as thought provoking-maybe someday I'll explain it to those of you from Rio linda, but has something to do with pedophiles and sex offenders and why they choose the jobs they do...it's for the children dumb...
wut?
-
Are there drag shows in the Catholic churches these days?
Have you seen some of those vestments?
Fabulous!
-
This was a really good, thoughtful thread. Until last night, when it got all SCOOPed up.
-
This was a really good, thoughtful thread. Until last night, when it got all SCOOPed up.
Brother Brew:
There's always going to someone whose bitterness, anger or bad attitude is going to drag things down. You accept it and graciousness (as well as the words of Jesus) suggests you just simply ignore it.
I understand the anger of many over the pedophilia scandal and subsequent cover-up. Most of us do! But there's a lot of priests, nuns and lay Catholics who set an example of God's love every day. They probably hurt more than anyone over this, as this erodes the beauty of their vocation. Yet we soldier.
I hope those who have intense anger at our church find the peace of God's love in whatever Christian tradition they choose!
-
43 years ago today, Pope Joh Paul II was shot. He forgave his shooter, who was later pardoned, deported, and converted to Catholicism.
-
43 years ago today, Pope Joh Paul II was shot. He forgave his shooter, who was later pardoned, deported, and converted to Catholicism.
I was not a particularly huge fan of Pope John Paul II, but this example of compassion and forgiveness is exactly what our faith calls us to do.
-
I can't recall ever learning this in my 15 years of Catholic education.
A Catholic priest in England was reported by his parishioners after he allegedly told them Jesus died with an erection. The Times of London reports that the diocese of Hexham & Newcastle investigated the complaint against Father Thomas McHale—an American assigned to Our Blessed Lady Immaculate in Blackhill for a decade—and it was “upheld.” While McHale was reprimanded, he has not lost his position as a result of the Good Friday sermon that some of his flock deemed vulgar.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/parishioners-report-father-thomas-mchale-for-saying-jesus-died-with-erection?ref=home?ref=home
-
Priapism = angel lust
-
I can't recall ever learning this in my 15 years of Catholic education.
A Catholic priest in England was reported by his parishioners after he allegedly told them Jesus died with an erection. The Times of London reports that the diocese of Hexham & Newcastle investigated the complaint against Father Thomas McHale—an American assigned to Our Blessed Lady Immaculate in Blackhill for a decade—and it was “upheld.” While McHale was reprimanded, he has not lost his position as a result of the Good Friday sermon that some of his flock deemed vulgar.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/parishioners-report-father-thomas-mchale-for-saying-jesus-died-with-erection?ref=home?ref=home
Is that a rosary in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?