Curious to get opinions on the relative importance of the various accomplishments available throughout the college basketball season.
In lieu of the poll function's capabilities, will have to rely on replies, but hoping to get Scoop's thoughts on how to 'rank' the following (listed in chronological order):
- Fall Non-Con Tourney Championship (e.g., Maui Invitational)
- Win a Conference Regular Season Championship
- Win a Conference Tournament Championship
- Qualify for the NCAA Tournament
- NCAA Sweet 16
- NCAA Final Four
- NCAA Championship
I have a hunch I value the regular season more than most Scoopers. I'd go with:
- NCAA Championship
- NCAA Final Four
- Conference Regular Season Championship
- NCAA Sweet 16
- Conference Tournament Championship
- NCAA Tournament
- Fall Non-Con Tourney Championship
1. NCAA Championship
2. Final Four
Huge Gap
3. Sweet 16
4. Conference Regular Season Champ
Huge Gap
5. Qualify for NCAA as Top 4 seed
Gap
6. Conference Tourney Champ
7. Qualify for NCAA as 5 or lower
Massive Gap
7. November tourney
Comments:
- NCAA champ and final four speak for themselves. Legendary years regardless of how you got there.
- Sweet 16 usually needs more context. NC State had a garbage year and beat a 14 seed to get there. Had they lost to us, I'd have taken a great regular season over the course of several months versus their run. That'd still be true if they lose tomorrow.
- Conference regular season championships don't really mean anything to me, though it's critical to be in the mix for them. I usually find myself just as happy finishing second.
- NCAA bid is the baseline for success here. I think the seed matters so I broke it up and sandwiched the conference tourney in between.
- Don't really care about conference tourney championships. It's just a good marketing opportunity for our program and a chance to get some quality wins. March Madness just completely overshadows its importance less than a week after.
- November tourneys are fun but no one cares who won them at the end of the year. Great vacation opportunity and a chance to pick up quality wins.
Quote from: CountryRoads on March 30, 2024, 04:50:44 PM
1. NCAA Championship
2. Final Four
Huge Gap
3. Sweet 16
4. Conference Regular Season Champ
Huge Gap
5. Qualify for NCAA as Top 4 seed
6. Conference Tourney Champ
7. Qualify for NCAA as 5 or lower
Massive Gap
7. November tourney
Comments:
- NCAA champ and final four speak for themselves. Legendary years regardless of how you got there.
- Sweet 16 usually needs more context. NC State had a garbage year and beat a 14 seed to get there. Had they lost to us, I'd have taken a great regular season over the course of several months versus their run. That'd still be true if they lose tomorrow.
- Conference regular season championships don't really mean anything to me, though it's critical to be in the mix for them. I usually find myself just as happy finishing second.
- NCAA bid is the baseline for success here. I think the seed matters so I broke it up and sandwiched the conference tourney in between.
- Don't really care about conference tourney championships. It's just a good marketing opportunity for our program and a chance to get some quality wins. March Madness just completely overshadows its importance less than a week after.
- November tourneys are fun but no one cares who won them at the end of the year. Great vacation opportunity and a chance to pick up quality wins.
I generally agree with you, especially the comments about context. I will never be able to completely value NCAA performance over the regular season. As a simple example, it isn't even a question for me that the 22-23 MU season was much better than the 2011 team that scraped to an 11 seed but made the Sweet 16 before bowing out.
NC State is providing an example for me that I would not prefer just any crappy regular season that is followed by a Final Four appearance over a season that provides 4 1/2 months of entertainment, several good wins, and anticipation.
Winning the championship? Sure, that's the ultimate prize. But losing in the Final Four would not salvage a lousy season for me. All it does is give you another week of enjoyment before the disappointment. And when the season ends with that kind of team with 5 grad transfers, all you have to look forward to is wondering what soldiers of fortune your team will come up with to field a team next year.
Quote from: wisblue on April 01, 2024, 08:30:23 AM
NC State is providing an example for me that I would not prefer just any crappy regular season that is followed by a Final Four appearance over a season that provides 4 1/2 months of entertainment, several good wins, and anticipation.
Wow, I'd trade a FF over every other Shaka accomplishment.
And I wouldn't diminish our opponent that beat us and made it there over us.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 01, 2024, 08:36:17 AM
Wow, I'd trade a FF over every other Shaka accomplishment.
And I wouldn't diminish our opponent that beat us and made it there over us.
Totally - Attending a Final Four with Marquette involved is one of my favorite sports/life memories. Sustained success (conf/BET championships) make for a better MU experience year in and year out, but I wouldn't trade 2003 for the 2022/23 season.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 01, 2024, 08:44:52 AM
Totally - Attending a Final Four with Marquette involved is one of my favorite sports/life memories. Sustained success (conf/BET championships) make for a better MU experience year in and year out, but I wouldn't trade 2003 for the 2022/23 season.
The 2003 Final Four is not the same situation. That came at the end of a season in which MU was rated in the top 10 and had a 3 seed.
That's why I say context matters.
As a fan, I would trade Marquette's season for NC State's in a heartbeat regardless of the outcome next Saturday.
Quote from: wisblue on April 01, 2024, 09:11:20 AM
That's why I say context matters.
Context: You think NC State sucks right now.
What does that say about Marquette?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 01, 2024, 08:36:17 AM
Wow, I'd trade a FF over every other Shaka accomplishment.
And I wouldn't diminish our opponent that beat us and made it there over us.
I'm not "diminishing" NC State's accomplishment. But if they get knocked out in the Final Four I don't think they accomplished anything special when put in the context of the rest of the season.
Quote from: wisblue on April 01, 2024, 09:14:01 AM
I'm not "diminishing" NC State's accomplishment. But if they get knocked out in the Final Four I don't think they accomplished anything special when put in the context of the rest of the season.
You don't think winning five games in five days to even qualify for the NCAAT, then winning four games to get to the Final Four is "special?"
It's legendary. First Final Four in 40+ years with a team full of fun personalities now gets to play in the pinnacle tournament of the sport? I think 99% of teams would want that regardless of their regular season.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 01, 2024, 09:13:40 AM
Context: You think NC State sucks right now.
What does that say about Marquette?
Did not say that either.
The context I'm talking about is from a fan's perspective and how much enjoyment I would get from the whole season.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but it doesn't make me wrong. It's a matter of taste.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 01, 2024, 09:13:40 AM
Context: You think NC State sucks right now.
What does that say about Marquette?
It means our expectations were unreasonable. COLE was the realistic approach.
Quote from: ATWizJr on April 01, 2024, 03:16:42 PM
It means our expectations were unreasonable. COLE was the realistic approach.
Are you seriously making multiple posts patting yourself on the back for predicting a cold shooting night on an MU fan board?
Odd but I'm glad it makes you feel so great to be right....
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 01, 2024, 03:22:11 PM
Are you seriously making multiple posts patting yourself on the back for predicting a cold shooting night on an MU fan board?
Odd but I'm glad it makes you feel so great to be right....
The Eeyores predicted catastrophe several times a week. They were too busy doing that to enjoy the season. And then, when they finally get one prediction right, they suffer rotator-cuff tears while patting themselves on the back.
As for the OP and the discussion that followed ... As much as I enjoyed these past two seasons, I'd take NC State's run over a conference title or earning a #2 seed. It's not even close to me.
NCAA Championship (6 Straight Wins in 3 weeks to close out the season)
NCAA Final 4 (4 Straight Wins in 2 weeks against some good competiton)
NCAA Elite 8 (3 Straight Wins in 2 weeks)
Conference Tourney Champ (3 Straight Wins in 3 Days against Conference foes)
Conference Season Champ (15+ Wins over 3 grueling months)
NCAA Sweet 16 (2 Wins in 3 days)
Non-Con Tourney Champ (2 - 3 Wins in 2-3 days but wrong time of the year)
82 - I agree ...
I'd trade the last year - actually the last two - for a FF run ( a la NC ST ) any day of the week
Let's be honest ... MU has made one FF in 50 years
Quote from: MU82 on April 01, 2024, 03:58:16 PM
The Eeyores predicted catastrophe several times a week. They were too busy doing that to enjoy the season. And then, when they finally get one prediction right, they suffer rotator-cuff tears while patting themselves on the back.
As for the OP and the discussion that followed ... As much as I enjoyed these past two seasons, I'd take NC State's run over a conference title or earning a #2 seed. It's not even close to me.
The good news is I think a run is a lot closer than many think. But it always sucks the most right when the season ends.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on April 01, 2024, 09:35:00 PM
The good news is I think a run is a lot closer than many think. But it always sucks the most right when the season ends.
Yep.
1. NCAA Champ
2. Final Four
3. Conf Tourney Champ (If you were in NYC last year you'd understand.)
4. Regular Season Champ
5. Sweet Sixteen
6. NCAA Tourney
7. Fall Non Con Tourney
Quote from: wisblue on April 01, 2024, 09:14:01 AM
I'm not "diminishing" NC State's accomplishment. But if they get knocked out in the Final Four I don't think they accomplished anything special when put in the context of the rest of the season.
No one remembers a random regular season but they can tell you where they were when their team makes the Final Four. And what they were wearing.
Without looking pick MU's five best victories in the 02-03 regular season. Now tell me who they beat in route to the FF.
Absolutely no comparison.
Quote from: BallBoy on April 01, 2024, 09:49:24 PM
Without looking pick MU's five best victories in the 02-03 regular season. Now tell me who they beat in route to the FF.
@UL
Wake
UW
Cincy
@Cincy
Holy Cross, Missouri, Pitt, Kentucky.
Quote from: BallBoy on April 01, 2024, 09:49:24 PM
No one remembers a random regular season but they can tell you where they were when their team makes the Final Four. And what they were wearing.
Without looking pick MU's five best victories in the 02-03 regular season. Now tell me who they beat in route to the FF.
Absolutely no comparison.
Actually, for me you are making the exact opposite point than the one you are trying to make.
As an MU fan for about 60 years, and a full season ticket holder for the last 22, I remember many great MU victories that I saw in person or on TV that occurred in seasons that did not end with Final Four appearances. That includes several in the last two years.
And I don't remember what I was wearing when MU defeated Michigan in 1974, or Wake Forest in 1977, or Kentucky in 2003 to advance to the Final Four.
I also have an alma mater that has appeared in 6 Final Fours (one while I was in school there) and won a championship since I was a student, and I don't remember what I was wearing when they won the games that sent them to the Final Four either.
I don't consider the four months of games that precede the Final Four to be irrelevant exhibitions that are rendered meaningless if there isn't a Final Four appearance at the end of the road.
Quote from: wisblue on April 01, 2024, 10:57:00 PM
Actually, for me you are making the exact opposite point than the one you are trying to make.
As an MU fan for about 60 years, and a full season ticket holder for the last 22, I remember many great MU victories that I saw in person or on TV that occurred in seasons that did not end with Final Four appearances. That includes several in the last two years.
And I don't remember what I was wearing when MU defeated Michigan in 1974, or Wake Forest in 1977, or Kentucky in 2003 to advance to the Final Four.
I also have an alma mater that has appeared in 6 Final Fours (one while I was in school there) and won a championship since I was a student, and I don't remember what I was wearing when they won the games that sent them to the Final Four either.
I don't consider the four months of games that precede the Final Four to be irrelevant exhibitions that are rendered meaningless if there isn't a Final Four appearance at the end of the road.
No one said the regular season was meaningless nor is it Final Four or nothing but you can't say the significance of a good regular season outweighs the significance of a Final Four. A regular season is well regular. Happens every year so having a good one isn't rare. We have had three good regular seasons in the last three years. Heck, Wojo had 3 good regular seasons in his 7 years. We haven't been to the Final Four in 21 years and we have 3 final fours in the last 50.
In a world of stacked ranking, there is a significant difference between we had a good season and we made the final four. I guaranteed you NC State Fans do not care right now that they had a mediocre season. They will talk about the Final four and ACC Tournament run for decades. A deep tournament run forgives a lot of mediocrity and a short run changes the perspective of what a good season was.
Quote from: BallBoy on April 02, 2024, 06:07:58 PM
No one said the regular season was meaningless
You said that "no one remembers a random regular season" and I was addressing that.
I remember things about every season if I was around to follow it.
The thing that is unique about the NC State situation is that they didn't even have a regular season good enough to get an at large bid to the NCAA tournament. That's a pretty low bar for a team in a power conference that has ample opportunities to pick up quality wins and usually only has to win a few of them to get a bid.
Can anybody think of another power conference team in the 64/68 team field era that made the Final Four after such a dreary regular season?
Quote from: wisblue on April 02, 2024, 10:18:27 PM
You said that "no one remembers a random regular season" and I was addressing that.
I remember things about every season if I was around to follow it.
The thing that is unique about the NC State situation is that they didn't even have a regular season good enough to get an at large bid to the NCAA tournament. That's a pretty low bar for a team in a power conference that has ample opportunities to pick up quality wins and usually only has to win a few of them to get a bid.
Can anybody think of another power conference team in the 64/68 team field era that made the Final Four after such a dreary regular season?
No, you remember great games or great moments from a season but the success of the season itself was measured by did we make the tournament. The success of the tournament is did we make the second weekend. If you win the tournament or get the final four you have had the ultimate success in the tournament. There is a reason most people here talk about 77 significantly more than 87, 97,2007,2017. Each of those seasons had something. For example, 1997 happens to be our first Conference Tournament Championship and only until 2023. The regular season, our opponents, and brand of basketball were horrible. What makes 97 better than 98? We have a conference title and an NCAA Tournament appearance versus Deane flicking off Louisville and NIT.
2017 was "the thing" and losing to eventual Final Four participant South Carolina. Would you put "The Thing" above Final four year? I remember three googles from 2011 but care way more that was a sweet 16 year. The regular season itself wasn't great.
No, that is what makes it so remarkable. They played 5 straight games to win the ACC title and are tied for the lowest seed to ever make the final four. Their head coach got an automatic two-year contract extension for that feat.
Yes, UCLA in 2021. They barely made the tournament with a 17-9 record after getting bounced from the PAC12 Tournament in the first round. They entered as another 11 seed and played the first four. They went on to the Final Four.
Last point, tournament appearances come with good regular seasons or a great conference tournament run. Final fours come with good regular season or a magical memorable run. You can't honestly say you would take the same great regular season but be equally happy with a first round exit and a final four. If you get to the final four all parts of your season came together. Regular season + conference good enough. Tournament run amazing. Even NCST had 11 of their 14 losses in conference but they weren't run out of the building in any game. Worse loss was Duke by 15. If we go non-conf they lost to Tenn by 9 on a neutral court but the only blow out was Mississippi. So a lot of <8pts losses that were easily overcome by the FF and Conf Title.
Quote from: BallBoy on April 02, 2024, 11:18:07 PM
No, you remember great games or great moments from a season but the success of the season itself was measured by did we make the tournament. The success of the tournament is did we make the second weekend. If you win the tournament or get the final four you have had the ultimate success in the tournament. There is a reason most people here talk about 77 significantly more than 87, 97,2007,2017. Each of those seasons had something. For example, 1997 happens to be our first Conference Tournament Championship and only until 2023. The regular season, our opponents, and brand of basketball were horrible. What makes 97 better than 98? We have a conference title and an NCAA Tournament appearance versus Deane flicking off Louisville and NIT.
2017 was "the thing" and losing to eventual Final Four participant South Carolina. Would you put "The Thing" above Final four year? I remember three googles from 2011 but care way more that was a sweet 16 year. The regular season itself wasn't great.
No, that is what makes it so remarkable. They played 5 straight games to win the ACC title and are tied for the lowest seed to ever make the final four. Their head coach got an automatic two-year contract extension for that feat.
Yes, UCLA in 2021. They barely made the tournament with a 17-9 record after getting bounced from the PAC12 Tournament in the first round. They entered as another 11 seed and played the first four. They went on to the Final Four.
Last point, tournament appearances come with good regular seasons or a great conference tournament run. Final fours come with good regular season or a magical memorable run. You can't honestly say you would take the same great regular season but be equally happy with a first round exit and a final four. If you get to the final four all parts of your season came together. Regular season + conference good enough. Tournament run amazing. Even NCST had 11 of their 14 losses in conference but they weren't run out of the building in any game. Worse loss was Duke by 15. If we go non-conf they lost to Tenn by 9 on a neutral court but the only blow out was Mississippi. So a lot of <8pts losses that were easily overcome by the FF and Conf Title.
You're telling me what YOU would remember. You can't tell me what I remember. Can you at least be open minded enough to accept that this is an issue of personal preference?
When you equate making the Final Four with winning the championship by saying both are the "ultimate success" you have lost your credibility. I doubt if there is anyone here who would agree with you on that.