No reason to take out 3 starters in the middle of a big run that got MU a double digit lead and had SHU on the ropes. The untalented bench comes in, and disaster ensues.
That decision had a direct impact on the game.
NoLonger
Huh?
Quote from: NolongerWarriors on January 06, 2024, 11:50:46 AM
No reason to take out 3 starters in the middle of a big run that got MU a double digit lead and had SHU on the ropes. The untalented bench comes in, and disaster ensues.
That decision had a direct impact on the game.
Ok, but why so quick to criticize and impossible to compliment?
Change to the opposite and I promise you'll be happier
Quote from: DoctorV on January 06, 2024, 12:02:50 PM
Ok, but why so quick to criticize and impossible to compliment?
Cause he's a troll.
Probably an antisemite too, aina?
Sure, why not. Except Shaka always starts subbing 5-7 minutes in. So, Shaka sticking to his sub pattern cost the game. Got it.
Shaka was in his bag lol what is this?
3:2 zone got us back into it.
Fact of the matter is every team is gonna give us 110% of their best effort as long as we are Top 10.
With great power comes great responsibility. This is part of getting battle tested for March.
OP is unintelligent Lolol.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 06, 2024, 01:12:16 PM
Shaka was in his bag lol what is this?
3:2 zone got us back into it.
Fact of the matter is every team is gonna give us 110% of their best effort as long as we are Top 10.
With great power comes great responsibility. This is part of getting battle tested for March.
OP is unintelligent Lolol.
Good thing we'll be out of the top ten then so teams don't try as hard..
Quote from: Johnny B on January 06, 2024, 01:16:12 PM
Good thing we'll be out of the top ten then so teams don't try as hard..
Maybe! There is extra juice for a top 10 team. If you haven't heard of "playing up to your opponent" I can't really help you. It's something you either understand or don't.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 06, 2024, 01:17:01 PM
Maybe! There is extra juice for a top 10 team. If you haven't heard of "playing up to your opponent" I can't really help you. It's something you either understand or don't.
if this was a Wojo coached game you'd be flipping out right now.
Well, the silver lining is we won't have to worry about teams playing up to a top 10 opponent anymore this season...
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 06, 2024, 01:17:01 PM
Maybe! There is extra juice for a top 10 team. If you haven't heard of "playing up to your opponent" I can't really help you. It's something you either understand or don't.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 06, 2024, 01:12:16 PM
Shaka was in his bag lol what is this?
3:2 zone got us back into it.
Fact of the matter is every team is gonna give us 110% of their best effort as long as we are Top 10.
With great power comes great responsibility. This is part of getting battle tested for March.
OP is unintelligent Lolol.
OP is a Badger. Don't take the bait.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2024, 01:26:30 PM
if this was a Wojo coached game you'd be flipping out right now.
- Go find me an instance where a Wojo coached team was Top 10 for 2 months during a season.
- Go find me an instance where a Wojo coached team was Top 10 in KenPom ever during a season
- Go find me an instance where a Wojo coached team won a Big East reg season or conference
Regardless of this loss, this team would pound any Wojo coached team into dust. Don't even go there.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 06, 2024, 01:34:06 PM
- Go find me an instance where a Wojo coached team was Top 10 for 2 months during a season.
- Go find me an instance where a Wojo coached team was Top 10 in KenPom ever during a season
- Go find me an instance where a Wojo coached team won a Big East reg season or conference
Regardless of this loss, this team would pound any Wojo coached team into dust. Don't even go there.
lol none of that changes that if you change the coach on this L you'd be on a crazed rant right now screaming about bad in game coaching, not having players focused, etc.
Stop posting and our winning percentage is incredibly good.
You start posting and our winning percentage decreases.
I wonder why that is??????
Hmmmm
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2024, 01:42:47 PM
lol none of that changes that if you change the coach on this L you'd be on a crazed rant right now screaming about bad in game coaching, not having players focused, etc.
It doesn't but it changes the context. Thanks.
Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2024, 01:09:37 PM
Sure, why not. Except Shaka always starts subbing 5-7 minutes in. So, Shaka sticking to his sub pattern cost the game. Got it.
I feel like the best coaches are flexible and willing to change things up based on the flow of the game. Being rigid is not a great trait for basketball coaches.
Quote from: NolongerWarriors on January 06, 2024, 11:50:46 AM
No reason to take out 3 starters in the middle of a big run that got MU a double digit lead and had SHU on the ropes. The untalented bench comes in, and disaster ensues.
That decision had a direct impact on the game.
So the starters had played the first 7 minutes of the game, including come back out after the under 16 timeout and a SHU timeout, and you are advocating keeping them in the game?
I feel that the best coaches have.roles.for their players and use substitutions to keep players fresh and set up not only current line ups, but line ups 4 minutes out. Keep everybody fresh and involved. Don't have 5 tired guys on the floor and only 2-3 to bring in. Try to have your best 5 ready down the stretch.
Sean stunk his first couple of minutes. He got better.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on January 06, 2024, 02:21:38 PM
So the starters had played the first 7 minutes of the game, including come back out after the under 16 timeout and a SHU timeout, and you are advocating keeping them in the game?
Yes. IMO, you play the hot hand (which was that group of 5) and ride it until things level off and then go into the set sub routine.
If MU had been playing a Depaul or Georgetown, I'd feel differently. If MU had a better bench, I'd feel differently. Seton Hall isn't a bad team and if you have a chance to bury them, then do so.
I am thankful that you are a college basketball fan posting on a message board and not coaching my alma mater.
Quote from: statnik on January 06, 2024, 02:08:30 PM
I feel like the best coaches are flexible and willing to change things up based on the flow of the game. Being rigid is not a great trait for basketball coaches.
"Putting in subs seven minutes in" is such a lame criticism.
Quote from: NolongerWarriors on January 06, 2024, 02:47:51 PM
Yes. IMO, you play the hot hand (which was that group of 5) and ride it until things level off and then go into the set sub routine.
lol. Nope. In the first half you coach it how you normally do.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 06, 2024, 04:13:59 PM
"Putting in subs seven minutes in" is such a lame criticism.
About as lame as it gets. Coach's start doing their normal rotations. Adjust from that based on play, foul trouble, injuries.
Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2024, 02:36:25 PM
I feel that the best coaches have.roles.for their players and use substitutions to keep players fresh and set up not only current line ups, but line ups 4 minutes out. Keep everybody fresh and involved. Don't have 5 tired guys on the floor and only 2-3 to bring in. Try to have your best 5 ready down the stretch.
Sean stunk his first couple of minutes. He got better.
I feel that the best coaches don't sabotage their team by taking a hit combination of the floor during a run.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 06, 2024, 09:03:47 PM
I feel that the best coaches don't sabotage their team by taking a hit combination of the floor during a run.
lol. He does the same thing every game.
Do people actually watch the games or just follow online? I cannot believe that after 2+ seasons we are discussing how Shaka subs during the game and how consistent the pattern has been.
There have been a LOT of interesting takes on Scoop the last 8 hours, Goose.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 06, 2024, 09:26:02 PM
inflexible? Can't adjust?
As had been explained, coaches generally stick with their rotation. Especially since it has worked plenty of times in the past.
This is just Monday morning quarterbacking.
Quote from: Goose on January 06, 2024, 09:26:21 PM
Do people actually watch the games or just follow online? I cannot believe that after 2+ seasons we are discussing how Shaka subs during the game and how consistent the pattern has been.
Yep. One bad game, and the announcer mentions something, and the critics come out of the woodwork.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 06, 2024, 09:31:08 PM
As had been explained, coaches generally stick with their rotation. Especially since it has worked plenty of times in the past.
This is just Monday morning quarterbacking.
ever hear of in game adjustments?
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 06, 2024, 09:45:30 PM
ever hear of in game adjustments?
No coach in their right mind would think they "We're up ten and there's only 33 minutes left, let's go for the kill!"
Just revisionist nonsense.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 06, 2024, 09:45:30 PM
ever hear of in game adjustments?
🙄🙄🙄
Sure bud. Lobby for the job next time.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 06, 2024, 09:54:32 PM
No coach in their right mind would think they "We're up ten and there's only 33 minutes left, let's go for the kill!"
Just revisionist nonsense.
Yep.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 06, 2024, 09:54:32 PM
No coach in their right mind would think they "We're up ten and there's only 33 minutes left, let's go for the kill!"
Just revisionist nonsense.
no coach? Coaches all the time make in game adjustments. Failure to do so was a major wojo weakness. And I will restate, ya don't fix it if it ain't broke. Doing something because that's the way he always does something is not a rational excuse.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 06, 2024, 10:00:20 PM
no coach? Coaches all the time make in game adjustments. Failure to do so was a major wojo weakness. And I will restate, ya don't fix it if it ain't broke. Doing something because that's the way he always does something is not a rational excuse.
So your thought is to make no substitutions. In the first half. That's just revisionist nonsense.
Quote from: Goose on January 06, 2024, 09:26:21 PM
Do people actually watch the games or just follow online? I cannot believe that after 2+ seasons we are discussing how Shaka subs during the game and how consistent the pattern has been.
I would imagine most on here watch the entire game, and pretty much every game.
I would also guess that most know that Shaka is pretty rigid and structured in his substitution patterns- he usually sends in one or a few reserves at the same time before either the under 16 TO if there is a poor start, or before the under 12 if the team is playing well.
The logic is clearly to rest the starters using the tv timeout as extra rest.
He usually has a great feel for the game- its part of what makes his an excellent in game coach- he knows whos got the hot hand and how to put them and therefore the team in a position to succeed.
The above doesnt mean that hes impermeable to criticism.
As a Marquette basketball board the point is to discuss what we see and share ideas and thoughts with one another re MUbb.
The point here is that perhaps he shouldn't be so rigid in all games, especially on the road when the team is cooking.
The fact is that MU was on an 8-0 run and getting ready to put SH in a very bad spot very early in the game until the triple sub of Chase/Ben/Sean. Then the wheels sort of fell off, TyKo and Kam weren't quite the same afterwards, SH made like a 25-7ish run, Chase got injured etc etc.
Sure, you could argue that Shaka always does that and that those subs had nothing to do with any of that, it's your or anyone's prerogative.
In the same breath, it's ok to argue that maybe he should have changed it up and gone with the starters the entire 20 minutes in the 1H since they were rolling to try to put the game out of reach.
Also, as TyKo and Kam were clearly playing brutally in the 2H he stuck with them- I get it they are all BE guards- but he then sat Sean AGAIN in a pivotal stretch near the under 4 in the 2H after he provided a massive spark.
Shaka sat him late in the Creighton game after a massive spark but Marquette pulled it off so it didn't matter.
When he did it today they quickly went from down 2 (after another of his sparks got them back tied) to down 10 in a matter of 3/4 mins and then he came back in and the team immediately got back into it.
Again, maybe coincidental, but definitely not unfair to discuss.
My discussion: it's nonsense. Especially the idea that "they weren't the same after...."
You really think a first half substitution has anything to do with that? Cmon...
MU had the depth advantage prior to Chase's injury. They're up 10, and he could steal a few minutes for the starters.
Less than three game minutes later the starters were all back in. Seems like he adjusted to the second unit struggling.
This is about as dumb as the pages long discussion of Jop's high five to Jae.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 06, 2024, 10:15:25 PM
MU had the depth advantage prior to Chase's injury. They're up 10, and he could steal a few minutes for the starters.
Less than three game minutes later the starters were all back in. Seems like he adjusted to the second unit struggling.
This is about as dumb as the pages long discussion of Jop's high five to Jae.
Gambled and lost. Simple as that.
So let's get this straight ... if he kept the starters in and, 10 minutes into the game, they were still playing well and we had a 12-point lead, he should still not sub? How about if MU had built a 14-point lead 13 minutes into the game ... would it be OK to sub then?
What's the official Scoop cutoff? Maybe the starters shoulda just played the whole game!
There were many reasons we lost this game. Shaka using some bench players - guys he trusts - 7 minutes into the game to give a few starters a rest ranks pretty darn low on the list to me. But y'all go for it!
Scoop has no cutoff, ever.
Sure maybe it was reason #13956 for the loss, somewhere behind Tyler and Kam playing poorly, but again that's not the point.
The discussion isn't about costing the game, it's simply about whether or not those subs shouldn't have happened in the moment. Every moment is unique. I don't often find myself saying "this is a brutal sub by Shaka and it's going to backfire" in the first half but I said it instantly in that moment, spoke it aloud to anyone who would listen, and SH immediately went on a massive run.
So it's probably just that Im upset it came true.
Bigger point is that I'm not so sure his substitution pattern should be so rigid all the time. The first halves this season haven't been a thing of beauty on several occasions, and sometimes we forget that Marquette, despite some really nice wins, has had to come back from plenty large first half deficits.
So, it's ok to analyze what should be done differently in these 1Hs.
My first suggestion is play on with your studs when they are in a good groove.
My second would be don't put in Sean and Ben simultaneously- as someone with a smarter computer and data brain has already shown the math shows negative things when they are on together.
My third would be put in Al Amadou!
Just kidding. And I know the stock response of coach Shaka knows this team better than anyone is coming, but again this type of discussion is what message boards are for, and it's ok to criticize even the most successful.
Everyone always has room to improve.
Yes, if you continue to roll you let the starters play 40 - or until the game is well and truly put away. These are not 45 year olds playing in an old man rec league - these are some of the most conditioned people on the globe - they could play 40 straight minutes without breaks, much less with time outs, half time, etc.
Gold is terrible and SH doesn't have particularly notable size. Oso was having a good game. The "twin towers" line up was a bizzare choice that backfired horribly. Ben should have played 5 minutes, not 13. Chase going down hurts our rotation bigly, but the answer isn't to give his minutes to Ben - its to have the starters each play 37.
I'm a Shak-ya for this season and beyond, but this was a bad game for him.
When I saw this thread topic, I thought it was going to be about the timeout he called with under 6 seconds in the game. We had the ball in the hands of a guy who may be the best point guard in the history of our program against a scrambling defense, but Shaka called timeout. Problems with the TO are:
1. No timeouts remaining, which makes the entry pass more difficult because we don't want to go deep into the backcourt for the inbounds (the normal outlet for a throw in from that spot on the floor) which led to the turnover. On top of that, Kolek was the inbounder so if we throw it deep in the backcourt we have someone other than our quarterback initiating play.
2. The timeout provided a good chance for SHU to remind their players to foul, up 3. Even if the pass was successful, they could have just fouled Oso, our best rebounder.
3. A chance for SHU to sort and assemble their defense to protect against the 3 point shot.
4. No timeouts remaining so we had no hope for anything but a 60 foot heave after they missed the 1 and 1. (Point 4 is a very minor consideration, I grant you)
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 12:54:24 AM
Yes, if you continue to roll you let the starters play 40 - or until the game is well and truly put away. These are not 45 year olds playing in an old man rec league - these are some of the most conditioned people on the globe - they could play 40 straight minutes without breaks, much less with time outs, half time, etc.
Teal?
End of the day, Shaka becomes a much better coach when the bench steps up. Only Sean has recently.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 07, 2024, 04:57:44 AM
End of the day, Shaka becomes a much better coach when the bench steps up. Only Sean has recently.
Shaka is a better coach when TKo and Kam step up. The offense looks better when 3s fall.
Quote from: tower912 on January 07, 2024, 07:10:38 AM
Shaka is a better coach when TKo and Kam step up. The offense looks better when 3s fall.
Yesterday we needed at least one of them. TKO had a rare off game, but Kam has been bad for a month now. 25% from 3 in his past 6 games ain't gonna get it done. Defense is also sloppy. Two fouls on threes and that abysmal defensive rebounding stat is pretty glaring. Not to mention the lazy effort on the two runouts. It wouldn't have taken much to turn yesterday into a win, but no one was willing to finish the job in the second half.
Quote from: tower912 on January 07, 2024, 07:10:38 AM
Shaka is a better coach when TKo and Kam step up. The offense looks better when 3s fall.
That is proving not to be sustainable, more so when Big East opponents key on these two. The bench seemingly always gives back points, with a few exceptions. Big Boy Time
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 03:59:22 AM
Teal?
no, I don't believe his comments are intended to be taken as satirical.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 07, 2024, 08:15:43 AM
no, I don't believe his comments are intended to be taken as satirical.
So we have someone who believes that the best way for this team to play is to make no substitutions.
Brilliant. <-------satirical
This is great stuff.
Even though nlw is a Badger-loving twat of a troll, kudos to him for getting some Scoopers to argue that Shaka should play our 5 starters all 40 minutes of every game we are leading.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 08:27:15 AM
So we have someone who believes that the best way for this team to play is to make no substitutions.
Brilliant. <-------satirical
I believe you have mischaracterized the comments.
As Al said, "you want to be a great coach? Recruit great players."
Our offense is creating tons of open looks every game. It is brilliant. Our shooters over the last 4-5 games have missed a lot of open looks that they "normally" would hit. Hit our average and we would probably have had one loss so far.
You do what it takes to win. If that means playing starters for 40 minutes that's what you do.
Of course in reality very few players, much less all 5 starters, are going to play 40. But lots of players do often play max (37-38) minutes (and on a regular basis).
Subs are for when you need a change of pace because O and/or D is getting stagnant or because you have the game in hand. That was not the case yesterday - we were rolling and building a lead - the subs killed the flow.
In another few minutes we would likely 1) have seen a SH pushbike or 2) been in true blowout territory. That's when you bring in some subs.i think the honest answer is Shaka had a bit of hubris and thought we were at number 2. We were not.
And no one is picking up the Gold bait, but the Oso/Gold lineup was a terrible call.
the reason we are getting so many open shots is because we haven't shown enough consistency of making them...duh!! we need a better inside-outside game. all the drive-penetrate and kick out means nothing until the ball goes in the hole.
the dribble-drive deep into lane means nothing if you don't go up strong and pop the short jumper or dish out. until you show them you will make the short jumper, they just yawn and wait for the kick out and miss. they sag in the lane and wait for the one and done rebound
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 10:45:26 AM
You do what it takes to win. If that means playing starters for 40 minutes that's what you do.
Of course in reality very few players, much less all 5 starters, are going to play 40. But lots of players do often play max (37-38) minutes (and on a regular basis).
Subs are for when you need a change of pace because O and/or D is getting stagnant or because you have the game in hand. That was not the case yesterday - we were rolling and building a lead - the subs killed the flow.
In another few minutes we would likely 1) have seen a SH pushbike or 2) been in true blowout territory. That's when you bring in some subs.i think the honest answer is Shaka had a bit of hubris and thought we were at number 2. We were not.
And no one is picking up the Gold bait, but the Oso/Gold lineup was a terrible call.
Apparently I did not misinterpret your comments. They're ridiculous.
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 10:45:26 AM
You do what it takes to win. If that means playing starters for 40 minutes that's what you do.
Of course in reality very few players, much less all 5 starters, are going to play 40. But lots of players do often play max (37-38) minutes (and on a regular basis).
Subs are for when you need a change of pace because O and/or D is getting stagnant or because you have the game in hand. That was not the case yesterday - we were rolling and building a lead - the subs killed the flow.
In another few minutes we would likely 1) have seen a SH pushbike or 2) been in true blowout territory. That's when you bring in some subs.i think the honest answer is Shaka had a bit of hubris and thought we were at number 2. We were not.
And no one is picking up the Gold bait, but the Oso/Gold lineup was a terrible call.
aww, now you've gone and challenged Sultan's opinion. This will no doubt result in a personal attack.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 07, 2024, 12:02:19 PM
aww, now you've gone and challenged Sultan's opinion. This will no doubt result in a personal attack.
No personal attack. His opinion on this is ridiculous. Shaka played it the way that's made him successful. They aren't playing 40 minutes. It's nonsense.
Wiz
You would think we all would know better than that. Give him a couple of minutes, he has to hit nine other threads first.
Quote from: Goose on January 07, 2024, 12:04:02 PM
Wiz
You would think we all would know better than that. Give him a couple of minutes, he has to hit nine other threads first.
yeah, he does doesn't he? No room for disagreement with that dude! If you do, you are subject to being ridiculed even tho the evidence indicates that you have a point.
Huh, hey?
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 07, 2024, 12:08:30 PM
yeah, he does doesn't he? No room for disagreement with that dude! If you do, you are subject to being ridiculed even tho the evidence indicates that you have a point.
But it doesn't. The evidence clearly shows that Shaka knows what he's doing.
And that's the point. Substituting this way has worked plenty of times. And you're just complaining about it afterwards.
Wiz
Don't give up hope, lot of basketball yet to be played.
Quote from: Goose on January 07, 2024, 12:04:02 PM
Wiz
You would think we all would know better than that. Give him a couple of minutes, he has to hit nine other threads first.
Depends on the context.
Goose, so you don't think it's ridiculous to contend that Shaka should play his starters for 40 minutes in MU's games?
82
What do you think? I have commented multiple times on that topic and other threads. There are posters on here that I believe deserve respect, even if I do not agree with them. I think ATWizJr is a long-time poster and a very long-time fan. Maybe my selecting scoopers that I like/respect over others make me a bad guy, I can live with that.
Quote from: Goose on January 07, 2024, 12:20:13 PM
82
What do you think? I have commented multiple times on that topic and other threads. There are posters on here that I believe deserve respect, even if I do not agree with them. I think ATWizJr is a long-time poster and a very long-time fan. Maybe my selecting scoopers that I like/respect over others make me a bad guy, I can live with that.
I think it's cute you come to his defense.
Quote from: Goose on January 07, 2024, 12:20:13 PM
82
What do you think? I have commented multiple times on that topic and other threads. There are posters on here that I believe deserve respect, even if I do not agree with them. I think ATWizJr is a long-time poster and a very long-time fan. Maybe my selecting scoopers that I like/respect over others make me a bad guy, I can live with that.
You know I like you and don't think you're a bad guy - even when you stir the pot - so why are you being dramatic? A few folks have silly takes on how Shaka shouldn't use his bench. It's OK to say they're silly. As "attacks" go, those are pretty tame.
Sultan
Huh?
82
Dramatic? I could not care less. You asked me a question and I answered it. I noted countless times that I think anyone that does not understand the sub pattern is crazy. I even went as far to question if someone of them even watch the games. Sorry, next time I will put six clown faces on my post and tell the person they are an idiot.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 12:25:50 PM
I think it's cute you come to his defense.
sultan thinks by making demeaning comments it makes him look cooler. Now, that's cute.
Quote from: Goose on January 07, 2024, 12:32:57 PM
82
Dramatic? I could not care less. You asked me a question and I answered it. I noted countless times that I think anyone that does not understand the sub pattern is crazy. I even went as far to question if someone of them even watch the games. Sorry, next time I will put six clown faces on my post and tell the person they are an idiot.
Yes ... dramatic.
82
Huh?
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 07, 2024, 12:37:51 PM
sultan thinks by making demeaning comments it makes him look cooler. Now, that's cute.
Sorry you can't handle criticism. I see why you need Goose to comfort you.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 12:25:50 PM
I think it's cute you come to his defense.
I find it very cute when you, Brew, 82, TAMU all come to each others defenses like clockwork. And the frequency with which you all do is about 15 to 1 as to that of Goose or the other "meat eaters" here do.
I mean it's why despite your better judgements (as all of you generally have good basketball observatioins/input) you all continued to support Wojo for 5 years before finally shifting tune....once Brew shifted his..then in lockstep so too did the rest of you. Yet you all wailed against me and my observation that Wojo sucked for 5 years.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 12:42:41 PM
Sorry you can't handle criticism. I see why you need Goose to comfort you.
I'm not the one labeling opposing opinions as ridiculous. Someone didn't get enough hugs did they?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2024, 12:56:44 PM
I find it very cute when you, Brew, 82, TAMU all come to each others defenses like clockwork. And the frequency with which you all do is about 15 to 1 as to that of Goose or the other "meat eaters" here do.
I mean it's why despite your better judgements (as all of you generally have good basketball observatioins/input) you all continued to support Wojo for 5 years before finally shifting tune....once Brew shifted his..then in lockstep so too did the rest of you. Yet you all wailed against me and my observation that Wojo sucked for 5 years.
😂😂😂 Wojo? The rest of us moved on long ago.
Let me guess...you were the guy who wore his high school letter jacket around campus.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 07, 2024, 12:59:59 PM
I'm not the one labeling opposing opinions as ridiculous. Someone didn't get enough hugs did they?
How else should I label ridiculous opinions?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2024, 12:56:44 PM
I find it very cute when you, Brew, 82, TAMU all come to each others defenses like clockwork. And the frequency with which you all do is about 15 to 1 as to that of Goose or the other "meat eaters" here do.
I mean it's why despite your better judgements (as all of you generally have good basketball observatioins/input) you all continued to support Wojo for 5 years before finally shifting tune....once Brew shifted his..then in lockstep so too did the rest of you. Yet you all wailed against me and my observation that Wojo sucked for 5 years.
Amen
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 01:06:53 PM
😂😂😂 Wojo? The rest of us moved on long ago.
Let me guess...you were the guy who wore his high school letter jacket around campus.
After dunking.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 01:07:23 PM
How else should I label ridiculous opinions?
disagreement is the lifeblood of discourse. Disagreeableness is not
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 07, 2024, 01:20:43 PM
disagreement is the lifeblood of discourse. Disagreeableness is not
Who says I want to engage in discourse over a ridiculous opinion?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2024, 12:56:44 PM
I find it very cute when you, Brew, 82, TAMU all come to each others defenses like clockwork. And the frequency with which you all do is about 15 to 1 as to that of Goose or the other "meat eaters" here do.
I mean it's why despite your better judgements (as all of you generally have good basketball observatioins/input) you all continued to support Wojo for 5 years before finally shifting tune....once Brew shifted his..then in lockstep so too did the rest of you. Yet you all wailed against me and my observation that Wojo sucked for 5 years.
Wut?
So you agree with some that Shaka shouldn't use his bench at all if MU has a lead? That doesn't sound like you ... but bringing a long gone coach into a discussion that has nothing to do with him sounds very much like you.
Give Magic Dawson my love.
Quote from: Daniel on January 07, 2024, 10:34:04 AM
As Al said, "you want to be a great coach? Recruit great players."
Our offense is creating tons of open looks every game. It is brilliant. Our shooters over the last 4-5 games have missed a lot of open looks that they "normally" would hit. Hit our average and we would probably have had one loss so far.
One caveat-
Our offense created tons of open looks for easy scores at the rim and going to the rim last season.
As you note, the open looks are now from 3, and it's obvious that much less are of the much easier variety at the hoop for layups and dunks.
So, is this years offense really brilliant or are opposing defenses making it so by design, and in fact it's much less effective than last season?
It's easy to just say "make that damn shot," but see the road game at Illinois- Shaka and Marquette, by design, gave them a TON of open 3s and they clanked. Marquette gave them little inside and they won the game.
This offense has to find a way to get good and easy looks at the basket as it did last season- by getting the ball in Tyler the creators hands and better spacing- and then my suspicion is that that'll open up the lid to better outside shooting
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 12:09:54 PM
But it doesn't. The evidence clearly shows that Shaka knows what he's doing.
And that's the point. Substituting this way has worked plenty of times. And you're just complaining about it afterwards.
This isn't true in my case, I don't do the revisionist stuff.
I complained instantly and in the moment when I saw the 3 guys at the scorers table and then it came to fruition, hence my upset over it
Quote from: MU82 on January 07, 2024, 01:28:58 PM
Wut?
So you agree with some that Shaka shouldn't use his bench at all if MU has a lead? That doesn't sound like you ... but bringing a long gone coach into a discussion that has nothing to do with him sounds very much like you.
Give Magic Dawson my love.
Could you kindly link where any Scooper has stated the bolded?
Btw - I love Shaka and am a big fan, but I've made a few criticisms of his coaching - and standard procedure for you guys is to jump right to suggesting me or other Scoopers know more about basketball than Shaka (or Wojo) for that matter...which dumbs it down to a first grade level discussion.
I don't think Shaka is a rigid coach AT ALL, and is flexible (yet generally consistent) in his approach which is one of the main reasons I love him, beyond being an A+ human and as bright as they come (unlike our former meathead coach.)
We all get to armchair decisions here, and no doubt every coach has decisions they would like back. I did feel Shaka left Sean out too long during the last 5 minutes. I also feel that a case could have been made to let the starters roll (as some posted here) a bit longer than their usual sub pattern as they were rolling and playing with an efficiency we haven't seen for a good portion of this year.
Quote from: MU82 on January 07, 2024, 01:28:58 PM
Wut?
So you agree with some that Shaka shouldn't use his bench at all if MU has a lead? That doesn't sound like you ... but bringing a long gone coach into a discussion that has nothing to do with him sounds very much like you.
Give Magic Dawson my love.
If you're going to discuss, and you're a good discusser, please don't twist things and say that others are claiming something that isn't true simply for effect, you know better than that.
There isn't a single person that is claiming Shaka shouldn't use his bench in a lead.
As a matter of fact, I've clearly said otherwise.
I've acknowledged that he has a set pattern and that the pattern has worked very well in most games.
That aside, I've suggested that maybe he shouldn't be so rigid with it if the flow of the game dictates otherwise, and that is all I'm saying.
That's what I saw yesterday, and just yesterday, and I thought it was a terrible time to sub 3 guys in.
Just like I thought it was terrible to sit Sean BOTH in the 3-4 min span before the 230 mark where SH extended the lead to 10 AND on the last play of the game when he was clearly in a nice zone.
Look at the Oso bucket at 40s to make it a 1 point game- SJ22 has an open 3 that many guards would have hoisted in that moment in time after making a few. Instead, he passes on it and makes a great pass for an Oso bucket.
Brilliant play, he was dialed in.
I thought he needed to play the entire last 5 minutes of the game and be in on the final play.
Our future hall of fame coach disagreed and went with his stats in the most pivotal moments and that's ok.
He was wrong yesterday and the team lost.
It's ok to question it without getting super dramatic and claiming that people are arguing that he should never sub anyone if the team is winning, so don't do that if that's not what someone is claiming.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2024, 01:49:29 PM
Could you kindly link where any Scooper has stated the bolded?
Btw - I love Shaka and am a big fan, but I've made a few criticisms of his coaching - and standard procedure for you guys is to jump right to suggesting me or other Scoopers know more about basketball than Shaka (or Wojo) for that matter...which dumbs it down to a first grade level discussion.
I don't think Shaka is a rigid coach AT ALL, and is flexible (yet generally consistent) in his approach which is one of the main reasons I love him, beyond being an A+ human and as bright as they come (unlike our former meathead coach.)
We all get to armchair decisions here, and no doubt every coach has decisions they would like back. I did feel Shaka left Sean out too long during the last 5 minutes. I also feel that a case could have been made to let the starters roll (as some posted here) a bit longer than their usual sub pattern as they were rolling and playing with an efficiency we haven't seen for a good portion of this year.
Good post, well said.
You are right about his flexibility, he's a much more flexible coach than many before him at Marquette so me calling him rigid is incorrect.
I moreso meant that I feel he's locked in to always trying to such certain guys at certain times in the 1H only, he varies it up much more in the 2H. It's seemingly worked for him though so I get it...
Although you could say the first halves haven't been stellar so it's worth another look and some more analysis on his part- especially the Sean+Ben simultaneous stuff.
I cringe remembering coaches sub out players immediately after a mistake- I think back to Wojo with Jamal Cain- and I'm very thankful that Shaka doesn't do that stuff and is flexible to give guys the right rope at the right time.
Not sure why the sitting Sean late in both the last two games though, but I'm sure he's got good reason in his mind
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2024, 01:49:29 PM
Could you kindly link where any Scooper has stated the bolded?
Sure!
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 12:54:24 AM
Yes, if you continue to roll you let the starters play 40 - or until the game is well and truly put away. These are not 45 year olds playing in an old man rec league - these are some of the most conditioned people on the globe - they could play 40 straight minutes without breaks, much less with time outs, half time, etc.
And others have at least suggested similar without coming right out and saying 40 minutes.
And of course Shaka is not above questioning his decisions. It goes with the job.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 07, 2024, 01:24:51 PM
Who says I want to engage in discourse over a ridiculous opinion?
every thread of your being.
Quote from: MU82 on January 07, 2024, 02:05:31 PM
Sure!
And others have at least suggested similar without coming right out and saying 40 minutes.
And of course Shaka is not above questioning his decisions. It goes with the job.
or until the game is put away.
We leave the starters in for another few minutes, we're up 16, go ahead and sub. All starters NEVER PLAY 40 in reality b/c you either get stagnant or have put the game away. Neither had happened when Shaka pulled the line change.
I don't know which of you were the pro-jo slurpers, but in these guys are human- they make mistakes - you can still be a fan admitting that - Shaka not leaving the starters in another few minutes yesterday was one of those.
The point is none of these 20 year olds "need" a sub for the rest. If a coach thought the way to win was playing them for 40 there is no conditioning reason not to. Subbing "for the sake of subbing" is the opposite hyperbole.
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 03:23:32 PM
The point is none of these 20 year olds "need" a sub for the rest.
Sorry but that's ridiculous.
Mugsy averaging 39 min per game!
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/men/mp-per-g-player-season.html
Going to the bench wasn't a mistake. It's our standard subbing pattern and if the starters are going to stay fresh, they need rest throughout the game.
My problem is going to the bench always seems to involve bringing in Sean and Ben together. That's a poor combination. Defensively, Ben is a liability in man while Sean isn't a great team defender. I also think it's an offensive risk because both are streaky shooters. That combination makes us primed for a run going against us. When he goes to the bench, I'd prefer to see their minutes staggered.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 07, 2024, 03:54:16 PM
Going to the bench wasn't a mistake. It's our standard subbing pattern and if the starters are going to stay fresh, they need rest throughout the game.
My problem is going to the bench always seems to involve bringing in Sean and Ben together. That's a poor combination. Defensively, Ben is a liability in man while Sean isn't a great team defender. I also think it's an offensive risk because both are streaky shooters. That combination makes us primed for a run going against us. When he goes to the bench, I'd prefer to see their minutes staggered.
Yes, my biggest problem is that it was a line change that brought in a Ben/Oso lineup and completely altered the make up of what had been clearly working.
Bringing Sean in for Stevie? Fine.
Chase for Kam or Jop? Fine (get better soon Chase!).
But Gold is and has been awful - without his shooting he is a major liability. At this point (at least with a healthy Ross) he shouldn't be seeing more than 5 a game unless there is foul trouble.
That's quite the goalpost shift.
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 03:20:34 PM
or until the game is put away.
I accept your apology, and I accept Ners' apology, too!
Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2024, 03:20:34 PM
or until the game is put away.
We leave the starters in for another few minutes, we're up 16, go ahead and sub. All starters NEVER PLAY 40 in reality b/c you either get stagnant or have put the game away. Neither had happened when Shaka pulled the line change.
I don't know which of you were the pro-jo slurpers, but in these guys are human- they make mistakes - you can still be a fan admitting that - Shaka not leaving the starters in another few minutes yesterday was one of those.
Very seldom you can say a game is put away. MU is going to need to go 8 deep to be effective against different type of teams, that is how Shaka likes to play throw fresh players that can keep harassing on D. The problem this year is the offense not hitting from outside, not the subs.
Newsie
Agree completely.
Quote from: Newsdreams on January 08, 2024, 09:35:55 AM
Very seldom you can say a game is put away. MU is going to need to go 8 deep to be effective against different type of teams, that is how Shaka likes to play throw fresh players that can keep harassing on D. The problem this year is the offense not hitting from outside, not the subs.
Exactly.