MUScoop

Put + or - in comment.

For me it's a B-. We're good, but we didn't play 1-seed good throughout the slate. We didn't play great - the intensity dropped at times - I'm surprised by that. I'd say we only saw the "A" game maybe 25% of the minutes - it was the exception rather than the rule. Not good enough

We can still get a one, but it's ours to earn right now rather than ours to lose.  If UCONN pulls off the zags victory they're clearly class of the BE and on tier 1a along with PU, Zona, KU and maybe Houston and Baylor - well see soon enough.

B+.

Overall pretty strong, but still off their peak by a good margin. Weaknesses are glaring for long stretches of play. Not hard to see how it would go if they get bounced early again.

I'm just gonna enjoy this year, because there's a real potential that next year could be a rough transition year with Oso/TK/Kam potentially gone.

Complete silliness

B+. Beat UW and it's an A. Incredibly challenging non con this year and they did well. A number of our wins so far aren't getting the respect they deserve.

A-. Not sure how it can be anything below that. Wins at Illinois and neutral Kansas are great wins. Dominant performances against ND and Texas are nice. Took care of the cupcakes easily outside of the Tommies, which we still won. Losses were a neutral to probably the best team in the country and a borderline top 25 team.

If you told me 10-2 with the schedule we had I'd take it. That's what we got.

A-   Putting on a clinic against Kansas proved we are a legit national title contender.  Purdue and the Bucky debacle showed we still have some room to grow and get better.

F-minus-minus

Lost in Madison, coulda lost to St. Thomas, meh second half against ND, didn't get any good wins at all really. We'll be lucky to even make the NCAA tournament.

A

In the moment, tonight's game could be clouding our judgement.  But given the slate we faced, it was a resounding success and should prepare us well for the BE season and the NCAA tournament. 

We beat UCLA, Kansas, Illinois on the road, blew out Texas, and scored 17 on ND before they scored.  Lost to Purdue by 3.  The only blemish was Bucky.


It's a A!

B ...

Some really good moments... but nowhere consistent enough to win 4 in a row ... let alone 6

I think Shaka will regret not adding a
guy or two in the portal

To grade it tough, I'll give it a B because of the Wisconsin game.  That's not a bad loss (Bucky looks good this year) but Christ, we didn't even show up.  Other than that it's been smooth sailing. 

A-

The minus only because of the game in Madison.

Won a big road game against a good B10 tourney team.

Trounced Kansas and looked every bit of a National title contender in doing so. That game alone will be a gift that keeps on giving.

Destroyed Texas, another solid win. Looked great when it mattered against ND- both of those came after the minus game on the schedule.

Didn't love the Purdue performance, but showed grit and kept it close when they shot lights out.

Cupcakes were all fine except tonight, and I actually enjoyed tonight's game so it's whatever. Games like this are good come tourney time for elite teams.

Marquette set itself up as a protected seed lock barring a disaster, so how could it be worse than an A-/B+?
Win 15+ in conference, including wins in the BET, and that should be a top 4 seed at like 24-8 or better.
Win any beyond that, which many of us expect they will, and that's likely a top 3 seed.
Win the conference, and it's likely a 1 seed or at worst a 2.

Let's go get that B2B conference championship.

So much COLE.

This is a team with title aspirations. 5-5-1  AGTS.

An A season this year is a 1 seed and a FF.

I mean it's recency bias, but the game tonight was BAD - 17 pt loss AGTS. Um sure the other advanced metrics will show that too

A "win" isn't just a win  - in March yes, not December

B+. Would be A- if the second loss were to Illinois instead of Wisconsin.

E for effort

A-

Only two bad games: Wisconsin and St. Thomas. 

Plenty of good. Dominating Kansas, nearly completing a big comeback against Purdue, dominating Texas, and an Illinois win that should age nicely.

As bad as tonight's game was, MU only dropped two spots in Kenpom from 5 to 7.  Defense dropped from 9 to 17, offense stayed at 11.

In excellent shape for a 1 or 2 seed.  Really, what more could you ask for?

A-. If not for the loss in Madison, an A.

A really I think the loss at Madison isn't getting enough Maui hang over talk.  I know that I was still kinda turned around a week after I got back.  Not a right off excuse...I'm just saying they played flat with no energy...maybe they actually had low energy?
Anyway with a schooling of Kansas and a gem in Champaign these boys earned an A.

Any loss to Wisconsin equals a C

The double stripped three point lines are affecting MU's trey shooting.

A-

The UW loss in a the biggest negative mark against them thus far. Tough schedule should have them well prepared for BE play.

I definitely had a bit of concern over the Omax departure and no portal addition to fill his role, and they are better than I expected. Will add, their really good is winning NC really good and that has been great to watch.

Back to the grade, I guess everyone needs to evaluate based off their own criteria, but I doubt if many counted on 11-1 or 12-0 going into the season. IMO, the gutsy win at Illinois, great second half against UCLA, clinic against Kansas, 33-8 run/clinic against Texas and causing four shot clock violations against ND before they scored is all I needed to see so far.

A-.  Faced a gauntlet.   Beat either Wisconsin or Purdue and it is an A+.

I would go B-. It was okay, but this team came into the year with a #5 next to their name and national championship aspirations. We didn't hurt our 1-seed hopes, but if the tourney started today we wouldn't be there and that should be one of the goals for this team, to make their journey to Glendale as easy as possible. The only way this team would deserve an A would be if they had a 0 in the loss column.

High expectations require high standards to be met to reach them. We didn't come close to exceeding expectations, in my opinion. I say this with the idea that a C is average. This team has been slightly above average to date, really the Kansas and Texas demolitions are the only reason it's a B- as opposed to a C.

tower

I am somewhat surprised that it seems like that gauntlet has been forgotten by some here.
While I felt they would be 10-2 going into BE play, I thought that was an aggressive prediction due to the schedule. That was a brutal five weeks of basketball, with pretty much non stop big times for the past four weeks.

IMO, this team is better than I expected going into the season. I am going to stick with my 15-5 in BE, but would not be surprised if they end up better than that.

F

The loss to Wisconsin means another year of constant references to that game by the usual suspects who treat the game like life and death and have to "suffer" being around Badger fans

Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 05:48:31 AM
A-.  Faced a gauntlet.   Beat either Wisconsin or Purdue and it is an A+.

And beat both and it is what? A++++? What are we, Lisa Simpson?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 05:58:22 AM
I would go B-. It was okay, but this team came into the year with a #5 next to their name and national championship aspirations. We didn't hurt our 1-seed hopes, but if the tourney started today we wouldn't be there and that should be one of the goals for this team, to make their journey to Glendale as easy as possible. The only way this team would deserve an A would be if they had a 0 in the loss column.

High expectations require high standards to be met to reach them. We didn't come close to exceeding expectations, in my opinion. I say this with the idea that a C is average. This team has been slightly above average to date, really the Kansas and Texas demolitions are the only reason it's a B- as opposed to a C.

100.

We mostly are playing like we were last year - which of course was pretty darn good.

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 07:05:27 AM
And beat both and it is what? A++++? What are we, Lisa Simpson?

Beat them both and MU is ranked #1 and nobody asks this question.

A

I thought it was an excellent pre-season.  We played a very formidable schedule and to come out of it 9-2 , with no bad losses, is fantastic.

Looking forward to a strong performance in a challenging 20 game conference slate .

This is a fun group of kids to watch play.

  My grade is a solid B.  The team has acquitted themselves well against a real solid schedule and held off a team that was red hot firing up threes from beyond the arc and off balance tosses that improbably found the net. I am happy with only two losses to two really good teams

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2023, 07:04:00 AM
F

You're too easy on 'em.

I'm sticking with F-minus-minus.

I just hope we finish ahead of DePaul and Georgetown.

A-

Team played the toughest non-conf schedule in quite some time and went 10-2 and ranked in top 10.  Plenty of great wins on the resume when it comes selection time in March.

We really do get too wrapped up in the Lake Mendota State game and Purdue needed a 75-footer to win that game.

St Thomas was a bunch of seniors who can shoot.  Those teams are always dangerous to everybody.

Let's enjoy this season because this is a fantastic team and teams like this do not come around all that often.

Can I just remind everyone we're not 10-2, we're 9-2. It's 11 non-con games, not the 12 or 13 we used to play before the league went to 20 games.

brew

Thanks for the clarification. With the schedule they played it felt like 15 games to me.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 09:58:29 AM
Can I just remind everyone we're not 10-2, we're 9-2. It's 11 non-con games, not the 12 or 13 we used to play before the league went to 20 games.

Ok, dad

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2023, 10:02:41 AM
Ok, dad

That's not my dad, that's a cell phone.

I find it hard not to be impressed with the season so far. Losing to Wisconsin sucked, but I felt like that wasn't a great matchup for us (forced to pick, I would have thought we win badger game and lose Illinois game).

I'll give an A-. They played with the best and overall succeeded.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 09:58:29 AM
Can I just remind everyone we're not 10-2, we're 9-2. It's 11 non-con games, not the 12 or 13 we used to play before the league went to 20 games.

Either the Kansas or Texas beat down should count for 2

A+

Brother and Sister Scoopers:

C'mon, are you people out of your collective minds?

Think about it! We defeated the number 1 team in the nation. We knocked off ranked teams in Illinois, UCLA and Texas.

We destroyed Notre Lame in a manner I haven't seen from us since the days of Al McGuire.

We're 7th in the nation and established ourselves as a legitimate contender for a Natty. I haven't seen that since 2003 and 1978.

OK, we lost to the rodent. Six weeks from now, if we keep playing as we have, the rodent will be a bad memory. So will Purdue, which we came within an eyelash of beating.

St. Thomas? Who cares? We won!!!!!!!

B+ or A-, or in MU's grading when I was there: A/B

A+ is winning every game. Would have been an A if we beat Bucky.


Most importantly, relatively to expectations, the non-con didn't really hurt or help us. We are essentially right where we were when the season started (a top 10 team).

We are just fine. A one seed is still in play.

Quote from: dgies9156 on December 15, 2023, 11:05:16 AM

We're 7th in the nation and established ourselves as a legitimate contender for a Natty. I haven't seen that since 2003 and 1978.

What about last year? 2 seed, swept BE championships, got up to 5 or 6 iirc.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 05:58:22 AM
I would go B-. It was okay, but this team came into the year with a #5 next to their name and national championship aspirations. We didn't hurt our 1-seed hopes, but if the tourney started today we wouldn't be there and that should be one of the goals for this team, to make their journey to Glendale as easy as possible. The only way this team would deserve an A would be if they had a 0 in the loss column.

High expectations require high standards to be met to reach them. We didn't come close to exceeding expectations, in my opinion. I say this with the idea that a C is average. This team has been slightly above average to date, really the Kansas and Texas demolitions are the only reason it's a B- as opposed to a C.

🙄

You act like this team is a historically good college basketball team. They're a very good 2023-2024 college basketball team. They're far from a dominant team. You have set yourself up only to be disappointed by this team, and that's extremely unfortunate for you because this season so far has been a joy.

its an A. if you expected a better record than this, you are nuts.

Only reason to downgrade it is if stevies injury lingers. Clear top 4 player on this team.

B+, can't ding the first L for being right there with Purdue at the end of the game when they're also a top tier team. Disappointed with WI, we looked out of sorts and had to battle back then fell flat again & Disappointed with last night. That's enough to knock us to B+ imo.

Surprised no one is giving the grades that so many of us got during finals back in the day.

Going to go with an AB instead of a straight up A. This is not due to the record, 9-2 with no bad losses is plenty fine.

Lowering it due to our shooting outside of Tyler, Kam, Jop, and Ben (he's now shooting 35% on the year). Shaka called it out last night, teams are going to start sagging off of some players and crowding the paint. ST did this to Sean yesterday. Need him and Stevie (and Chase for that matter) to up those percentages, otherwise the lane is going to be real crowded coming up here.

Quote from: jfp61 on December 15, 2023, 11:35:37 AM
its an A. if you expected a better record than this, you are nuts.

Only reason to downgrade it is if stevies injury lingers. Clear top 4 player on this team.

How is "meeting expectations" an A?

I'm super bullish on this team and season - but I want March succes - the probability of that falls drastically from a 1 seed to a 2 or worse.

Quote from: zcg2013 on December 15, 2023, 11:53:13 AM
Surprised no one is giving the grades that so many of us got during finals back in the day.

Going to go with an AB instead of a straight up A. This is not due to the record, 9-2 with no bad losses is plenty fine.

Lowering it due to our shooting outside of Tyler, Kam, Jop, and Ben (he's now shooting 35% on the year). Shaka called it out last night, teams are going to start sagging off of some players and crowding the paint. ST did this to Sean yesterday. Need him and Stevie (and Chase for that matter) to up those percentages, otherwise the lane is going to be real crowded coming up here.

Was going to comment earlier on Ben's shooting but that's actually up 5% from last year.

I think any hopes of him being Novak 2.0 are pretty much dead. Can you imagine how unstoppable we'd be if we could.being him of the been shooting 46% from behind the arc?

B+.  Losing to Bucky....i won't argue with an A-

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 11:55:24 AM
How is "meeting expectations" an A?

I'm super bullish on this team and season - but I want March succes - the probability of that falls drastically from a 1 seed to a 2 or worse.

because... with hindsight they were expected to lose more than this.

8-3 or 7-4 were more likely than 9-2. If you backtrack the games we played we were expected to lose againist kansas and at illinois. Wisconsin and Purdue would remain expected loses. 

This team is 9-2 with its fourth best player injured, a 4 man who can't score in the paint would be benched if stevie was healthy, and very very bad backup pointguard play (Sean Jones is somehow +23  on the season having played more posessions than Stevie Mitchell "+83")

I graded MU off what the rest of the top teams have done to this point. I would think top ten team in the country would have been quite happy with 9-2 with the schedule played.

I graded a B simply in context of THIS YEAR's expectation.    Year in and year out, this overall would be an 'A' to me... but if you specifically weight it by what this team wants to accomplish and how good they should be this year, I think they did good but not excellent against expectations.

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 11:55:24 AM
How is "meeting expectations" an A?

I'm super bullish on this team and season - but I want March succes - the probability of that falls drastically from a 1 seed to a 2 or worse.

What was UConn's seed last year?

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 11:58:12 AM
Was going to comment earlier on Ben's shooting but that's actually up 5% from last year.

I think any hopes of him being Novak 2.0 are pretty much dead. Can you imagine how unstoppable we'd be if we could.being him of the been shooting 46% from behind the arc?

I'm happy enough with his dan fitzgerald 2.0 game.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2023, 07:04:00 AM
F

The loss to Wisconsin means another year of constant references to that game by the usual suspects who treat the game like life and death and have to "suffer" being around Badger fans

yes!! oh wait, you talkin' 'bout me?

A-/B+ range.  9-2 with the schedule we had is very impressive, including blowing out the (then) #1 Kansas Jayhawks.  While we have not peaked (yet), we still have won many of our games without playing our very best.  That should be the case for any team in November/December.  Wisconsin game hurt many, but it doesn't change the outlook for the team for the season.  At all. 

It was great to get Lowery and Norman extended looks in several of the games, along with AA.  Hoping there will be a few games they also get runs to continue with the team's development and progressions in BE play.  We have to continue to hope for minimal/no injuries (get well soon, Stevie). 

We are a top-10 team.  Just need to continue to get better and build towards March.  We were never going to win every game, against the spread, by 20+ points. 

B to expectations. A to the Wojo baseline. The defense has been better than expected, the shooting is a concern. Rebounding sux as expected. Coaching the system has been outstanding. In game and game planning has met my expectations, but my expectations are that Shaka just let's the players play the system versus being a strong situational coach (not a fan of that philosophy going against so many great game coaches but it is Shaka's way and it's been successful).

However, MU needs a LOT more consistency from everyone not named Oso or Tyler be an A+. I have to say, that part is a disappointment versus expectations.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 15, 2023, 01:32:29 PMIn game and game planning has met my expectations, but my expectations are that Shaka just let's the players play the system versus being a strong situational coach (not a fan of that philosophy going against so many great game coaches but it is Shaka's way and it's been successful).

You can almost see the struggle at times with this, when we play teams that are distinctly different stylistically. Even last night, it took until the 3 minute mark to just play them straight up defensively.

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 11:55:24 AM
How is "meeting expectations" an A?

I'm super bullish on this team and season - but I want March succes - the probability of that falls drastically from a 1 seed to a 2 or worse.

I think that tournaments the last few years, and last year more than any other, should show  that you can throw out the idea that getting a 1 seed dramatically increases a team's chances of advancing.

Those stats that are pulled out every March include all of those years when some of the #1 seeds were head and shoulders above the field. Some of those Duke, UNC, Kansas, and Kentucky teams could have been given an 8 or 9 seed and they still would have advanced to the Final Four.

Last year we saw a 4 seed crush everyone they faced en route to the title and no 1,2,or 3 seed advance to the Final Four. If MU is good enough and plays well enough, they can advance to the Final Four from any protected seed position. They've already shown that they can beat and compete with 2 teams that might be #1 seeds.

Quote from: wisblue on December 15, 2023, 03:09:14 PM
I think that tournaments the last few years, and last year more than any other, should show  that you can throw out the idea that getting a 1 seed dramatically increases a team's chances of advancing.

Those stats that are pulled out every March include all of those years when some of the #1 seeds were head and shoulders above the field. Some of those Duke, UNC, Kansas, and Kentucky teams could have been given an 8 or 9 seed and they still would have advanced to the Final Four.

Last year we saw a 4 seed crush everyone they faced en route to the title and no 1,2,or 3 seed advance to the Final Four. If MU is good enough and plays well enough, they can advance to the Final Four from any protected seed position. They've already shown that they can beat and compete with 2 teams that might be #1 seeds.

Well yeah, no kidding. If the committee somehow decided to give Louisville, DePaul, Georgetown, and Notre Dame 1 seeds it doesn't mean they'll suddenly become really good teams. Getting a 1 seed means you've had a great season and are a great team. And those teams have great shots to go deep in the Tournament.

Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, and Duke could've gone to the FF if they were given an 8 or 9 seed because they were actually a 1 seed caliber team that earned a 1 seed. They wouldn't lose their abilities if the committee screwed them over.

Quote from: withoutbias on December 15, 2023, 11:32:52 AM
🙄

You act like this team is a historically good college basketball team. They're a very good 2023-2024 college basketball team. They're far from a dominant team. You have set yourself up only to be disappointed by this team, and that's extremely unfortunate for you because this season so far has been a joy.

In my lifetime, at Marquette, it sure as hell is. But as I said, we're talking about performance vs expectation. If they were undefeated, it would be a firm A. 10-1 would be AB because when you're top-5, that's sort of the expectation.

Look at the teams that started ahead of us. Kansas and Purdue have 1 loss and have generally met expectations. Not exceeded, but met. Duke & MSU have underperformed and deservedly been castigated. We're in between that. Which is fine. But it's not like we've done anything to exceed where we should expect to be.

Brew that's all true, but, setting "expectations" aside...

Where does this non-con performance rank for you in the last 25 years?

#1?

If so, that seems like a harsh grade

Quote from: wadesworld on December 15, 2023, 04:50:37 PM
Well yeah, no kidding. If the committee somehow decided to give Louisville, DePaul, Georgetown, and Notre Dame 1 seeds it doesn't mean they'll suddenly become really good teams. Getting a 1 seed means you've had a great season and are a great team. And those teams have great shots to go deep in the Tournament.

Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, and Duke could've gone to the FF if they were given an 8 or 9 seed because they were actually a 1 seed caliber team that earned a 1 seed. They wouldn't lose their abilities if the committee screwed them over.

It seems obvious, and yet when tournament time comes around I guarantee that there will be people on this board agonizing over whether MU gets a seed of X or a seed of X-1 and pulling out the statistics showing the percentage of teams with seed X or X-1 that have advanced to the Final Four.

It's impossible to determine what a deserving 1 seed would do year over year if given a 10 seed. It is very easy and valid to point out actual statistics of how 1,2 and 3 seeds perform. Of course it's predicated on performance. That's sort of the point. And if we get a 10 seed, there will be a ton of evidence for us to point to that would indicate that NO, we are not a team that can make the Final 4. But obviously it's better to have a better seed. What are we talking about here?

Quote from: Carl on December 15, 2023, 05:43:26 PM
It's impossible to determine what a deserving 1 seed would do year over year if given a 10 seed. It is very easy and valid to point out actual statistics of how 1,2 and 3 seeds perform. Of course it's predicated on performance. That's sort of the point. And if we get a 10 seed, there will be a ton of evidence for us to point to that would indicate that NO, we are not a team that can make the Final 4. But obviously it's better to have a better seed. What are we talking about here?

I'm addressing the statement that MU's chances of having March success fall dramatically if they go from a 1 seed to a 2 seed or worse.

I think everyone agrees that you want your teams to earn as high a seed as possible by playing as well as possible during the season. But the marginal advantage of being one seed line higher can be pretty negligible, especially if there's just one place difference on the NCAA seed list (eg teams 4 and 5, the last 1 seed  and the first 2 seed). After the first round those two teams are on the same track.

Quote from: Carl on December 15, 2023, 05:21:47 PM
Brew that's all true, but, setting "expectations" aside...

Where does this non-con performance rank for you in the last 25 years?

#1?

If so, that seems like a harsh grade

#1? Definitely not. That was 2007. 12-1 record, only loss to Duke in the Maui Final, beat a better Badger team in Madison.

On par with this were 2002 & 2018. 2002 had wins over Villanova, Wisconsin, & Wake. 2018 included the three wins over #12, K-State, Wisconsin, & Buffalo. This is top-4, but not #1, and in terms of comparing it to expectations against those others I'd put it at #4.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 08:56:57 PM
#1? Definitely not. That was 2007. 12-1 record, only loss to Duke in the Maui Final, beat a better Badger team in Madison.

On par with this were 2002 & 2018. 2002 had wins over Villanova, Wisconsin, & Wake. 2018 included the three wins over #12, K-State, Wisconsin, & Buffalo. This is top-4, but not #1, and in terms of comparing it to expectations against those others I'd put it at #4.

Badger win was fantastic in 2007 but that non con schedule was an absolute joke in comparison to this year's schedule.

Quote from: wisblue on December 15, 2023, 06:00:59 PM
I'm addressing the statement that MU's chances of having March success fall dramatically if they go from a 1 seed to a 2 seed or worse.

I think everyone agrees that you want your teams to earn as high a seed as possible by playing as well as possible during the season. But the marginal advantage of being one seed line higher can be pretty negligible, especially if there's just one place difference on the NCAA seed list (eg teams 4 and 5, the last 1 seed  and the first 2 seed). After the first round those two teams are on the same track.

I agree that the difference between the 4 and 5 teams on the S is very low - but the NCAA is a cumulative probability event so the probabilities in each game matter. Even a small change in the probability for each game in each round can have a big cumulative effect.

For example (and these probabilities aren't right- just illustrative but they're probably pretty close) a 1 seed's path to the FF might look like

.85*.75*.65*.55

While a 2 seed's path might be

.75*.65*.55*.45

Assuming they face the highest seeds possible in each game (first round probs are probably a bit low, 2nd might be a bit high, but you get the picture.

So the cumulative probs of making the FF are  .228 vs .121

It would be interesting to pull up thr actual data and compare historical performance of 4 vs 5 S curve teams, but even the I'd say difference probably not negligible

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 07:08:24 AM
100.

We mostly are playing like we were last year - which of course was pretty darn good.

Disagree. We are better at this point in the season than we were at the same point last season. I could hear an argument that we are playing about the same as we were at the end of last season.

We are still growing.  There's another level we haven't reached yet

Kansas, UCLA, Illinois, Texas & ND were A's.
Purdue was a B-.
Wisconsin was an F.
Other games don't matter unless you lose.

Overall a B.  Can't be any higher than a B, when you average in an F.

B+ we came out of our hardest non conference season that I can remember with 2 L's. Beat number 1 and lost by three to the new number 1.


The bucky stinker is the only thing that stops mu from receiving an A.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2023, 12:13:04 AM
Disagree. We are better at this point in the season than we were at the same point last season. I could hear an argument that we are playing about the same as we were at the end of last season.

We are still growing.  There's another level we haven't reached yet

Yeah - that's what I meant - we basically picked up where we left off last year which, other than how was the play Mrs Lincoln, was pretty good.

I'm really pleased with the noncon season except the loss at UW, but that should be the best learning experience of the season for shaka and the coaching staff. 

If you look at the top 10, Houston is #1 and has played nobody so far.  AZ and Uconn also had cupcake-laden schedules. The only teams with stronger schedules are Purdue (respect) and Tennessee.

MU's 2 losses are either teams MU will specifically need to go through for a natty (Purdue) or the model everyone will try to use to beat MU (UW).  The Tommies tried it with much less talent and discipline than UW and still made it tough for MU to win.  THAT is what the non-con season is for. 

One unfortunate outcome is the loss of a starter.  Wishing Stevie a fast recovery.
A-

Quote from: 94Warrior on December 16, 2023, 12:25:09 AM
Kansas, UCLA, Illinois, Texas & ND were A's.
Purdue was a B-.
Wisconsin was an F.
Other games don't matter unless you lose.

Overall a B.  Can't be any higher than a B, when you average in an F.

Losing to a currently ranked team on the road is not an "F."

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 16, 2023, 05:42:42 AM

Losing to a currently ranked team on the road is not an "F."

Since all our exams are Pass or Fail it has to be an F.

Quote from: WarriorFan on December 16, 2023, 04:29:05 AM
AZ and Uconn also had cupcake-laden schedules.

Bruh

Quote from: WarriorFan on December 16, 2023, 04:29:05 AM
AZ and Uconn also had cupcake-laden schedules.

Arizona's schedule is ramping up with Purdue, Alabama, and FAU being their next 3 games.  We'll see how they fare.

UConn's schedule is hurt by Gonzaga, Texas, and Indiana being weaker than normal.  And their cupcakes were super sugary.

On the balance, the Warriors exceeded my expectations.  A record of 8-3, with a very tough non-conference schedule, seemed reasonable in October.

A+ would be undefeated and a number 1 ranking.
A would be a loss to Purdue and a number 2 or 3 ranking.
A- would be a loss to Kansas, 3d in Maui and a top 5 ranking.
B+ is a loss to Purdue and the Badgers, with a top 10 ranking.
B is a 8-3 record with a top 15 ranking.

I give the season a B+ so far.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2023, 12:13:04 AM
Disagree. We are better at this point in the season than we were at the same point last season. I could hear an argument that we are playing about the same as we were at the end of last season.

We are still growing.  There's another level we haven't reached yet

Absolutely this.

One year ago, Kolek was averaging 8.5 ppg and not even his biggest backers here were saying he'd be an All-American by season's end; Oso was nowhere near ready to dominate the likes of Dickinson; Chase Ross was still a concept; and Ben Gold was a non-contributor. We not only had lost at home to UW-Madison but also to Mississippi State on a neutral court. We had a worse record at this time last season despite a much softer schedule.

The difference is so significant, folks would have to be blind to not see it.

That said, I'm lowering my grade to F-minus-minus-minus because I expected us to win 12 of our first 11 games, by at least 20 points each.

82

The last two seasons I have paid close attention to the progress of the program by comparing year over year. It is not even a question that this team is well advanced over last season at this time. I would even say that there is bigger improvement this year vs. the improvement we saw last season. Aside from player development, the defense is vastly improved, and the offense looks sharp again thus far. Truthfully, if anyone does not believe this team is vastly better, they either will never be satisfied or being contrarian.

I gave them. B+ as well. If this was last season before winning the big east conference and tournament it would have been an A. Given that we returned all but Omax expectations were higher. Marquette did imo exactly what they should have wining 2/3 in Maui and winning all but Madison in the rest of the non conference.

If they would have beat Purdue or Wisconsin they would have been ranked 2 and deserved the A.

There's no harm in losing to the Badgers imo it was the toughest test to date with a true road game against instate rival who imo will end up being a 4 seed in the tourney and could win the big 10. If we go 17-3 in conference again we will be a 1 seed no doubt in my mind

Saying we are similar to last years team at this point is pretty damn hilarious.

That team wasnt even ranked and Im pretty sure it wasnt even top 100 in Kenpom defensively(or it wasnt much better than that). We are top 20 in that this year and been ranked top 10 all year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 08:56:57 PM
#1? Definitely not. That was 2007. 12-1 record, only loss to Duke in the Maui Final, beat a better Badger team in Madison.

On par with this were 2002 & 2018. 2002 had wins over Villanova, Wisconsin, & Wake. 2018 included the three wins over #12, K-State, Wisconsin, & Buffalo. This is top-4, but not #1, and in terms of comparing it to expectations against those others I'd put it at #4.

...vs Buffalo...the game Markus Howard went off for +30 in the 2nd half, or something like that?

Quote from: Viper on December 16, 2023, 10:43:09 AM
...vs Buffalo...the game Markus Howard went off for +30 in the 2nd half, or something like that?

An even 40.

Can you give an F- ?    Badger loss while ranked #3 in the country should count for 3 losses. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 16, 2023, 05:42:42 AM

Losing to a currently ranked team on the road is not an "F."

Quote from: PointWarrior on December 16, 2023, 10:59:59 AM
Can you give an F- ?    Badger loss will ranked #3 in the country should count for 3 losses.

What if you are out of F-'s to give?

I bumped us up a half grade for the loss to the Badgers. Nothing better than scoop after a badger loss.

Quote from: Goose on December 16, 2023, 10:08:57 AM
82

The last two seasons I have paid close attention to the progress of the program by comparing year over year. It is not even a question that this team is well advanced over last season at this time. I would even say that there is bigger improvement this year vs. the improvement we saw last season. Aside from player development, the defense is vastly improved, and the offense looks sharp again thus far. Truthfully, if anyone does not believe this team is vastly better, they either will never be satisfied or being contrarian.

Preachin' to the choir.

Some folks expect perfection. I guess they can point to Porter Moser going 9-0 against the 222nd-ranked schedule in the nation.

With UWGB at home today, another big challenge for the Perfect Mosers!

Thankfully, I am not fresh out of F-'s to give...

Quote from: tower912 on December 16, 2023, 11:02:36 AM
What if you are out of F-'s to give?

Quote from: 1SE on December 15, 2023, 09:44:33 PM
I agree that the difference between the 4 and 5 teams on the S is very low - but the NCAA is a cumulative probability event so the probabilities in each game matter. Even a small change in the probability for each game in each round can have a big cumulative effect.

For example (and these probabilities aren't right- just illustrative but they're probably pretty close) a 1 seed's path to the FF might look like

.85*.75*.65*.55

While a 2 seed's path might be

.75*.65*.55*.45

Assuming they face the highest seeds possible in each game (first round probs are probably a bit low, 2nd might be a bit high, but you get the picture.

So the cumulative probs of making the FF are  .228 vs .121

It would be interesting to pull up thr actual data and compare historical performance of 4 vs 5 S curve teams, but even the I'd say difference probably not negligible

We should take this up again when it gets closer to Selection Sunday and people start stressing over exactly what seed MU will get.

In the meantime, I think you are pretty significantly overstating the difference in win probabilities for the teams in the 4 and 5 spots on the S Curve.

If the bracket is set precisely as dictated by the S Curve (which it isn't because of adjustments that have to be made because of some of the placement principles like avoiding early matchups between teams in the same conference) the 4 and 5 teams will be the 1 and 2 seeds in the same region and they would be on a path to face each other in the fourth round. That game should be something close to a tossup.

If all of the higher seeded teams win their games, the path for the teams would be:

Team 4- Teams 61, 29, and 13

Team 5- Teams 60, 28, and 12

Those teams that are 1 apart on the seed list should be of pretty comparable strength. The relative win probabilities for the higher seeds would be more a function of the specific matchup than playing an inherently inferior opponent.

Obviously there is value in teams earning the highest seed they can get. But once they are placed, the difficulty of their path to the Final Four will be determined in large part by the specific matchups they are faced with and whether higher seeded teams are knocked out before they get to them.

Look at Creighton last year. They had a 6 seed and their path to the Final Four looked like it would go through NC State, Baylor, Arizona, and Alabama. But, because Princeton knocked out Arizona and Missouri, and SD State beat Alabama, once they beat 3 seed Baylor Creighton played a 15 seed and a 5 seed the second weekend.

Quote from: CountryRoads on December 15, 2023, 09:17:59 PM
Badger win was fantastic in 2007 but that non con schedule was an absolute joke in comparison to this year's schedule.

Sure. I guess I just have higher expectations for this team than the rest of Scoop does. And I grade accordingly. If you guys want to grade them on an easy scale where try hard is a B and perform as expected is an A, that's your prerogative. But there's no world in which I feel this team has exceeded my expectations, so B- it is.

As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2023, 02:35:33 PM
Sure. I guess I just have higher expectations for this team than the rest of Scoop does. And I grade accordingly. If you guys want to grade them on an easy scale where try hard is a B and perform as expected is an A, that's your prerogative. But there's no world in which I feel this team has exceeded my expectations, so B- it is.

A kid who got a 34 on their ACT doesn't get graded any differently than a kid in the same class that got a 26 on their ACT.

Going 9-2 with wins at Illinois, over UCLA and Kansas neutral, a close loss to Purdue on a neutral, and dominating Texas and ND at home is a great non con. 40 bad minutes at a good Wisconsin team was the only negative result.

Also, you kind of referenced coming into the year ranked in the top 5 and not being that anymore. If playing to our preseason ranking is a consideration, we also played 2 teams that came into the season (and are currently) ranked higher than us this year. So 9-2 would've been expected.

Expecting 0 losses with our non conference is wild.

Quote from: JakeBarnes on December 15, 2023, 10:13:20 AM
That's not my dad, that's a cell phone.

Throw it on the ground eh

Quote from: wadesworld on December 16, 2023, 02:58:11 PM
A kid who got a 34 on their ACT doesn't get graded any differently than a kid in the same class that got a 26 on their ACT.

Going 9-2 with wins at Illinois, over UCLA and Kansas neutral, a close loss to Purdue on a neutral, and dominating Texas and ND at home is a great non con. 40 bad minutes at a good Wisconsin team was the only negative result.

Also, you kind of referenced coming into the year ranked in the top 5 and not being that anymore. If playing to our preseason ranking is a consideration, we also played 2 teams that came into the season (and are currently) ranked higher than us this year. So 9-2 would've been expected.

Expecting 0 losses with our non conference is wild.

I can see both sides of the equation, to be honest.

The above isn't as wild as you'd think.

In all reality, Brew expected Marquette to be #1 after Maui, facing a top 5 Creighton team in Mke on 12/30 in a possible 1v2 matchup and he said so before the ball was tipped.

Seems crazy? Well, I expected Marquette to win in Maui too. MU is en elite, experienced team and for some season I thought Kansas wouldn't be an issue, and they weren't.
I expected a better performance versus Purdue than we got, but they went light out from 3 and Edey ate.

Even with that, it was really damn close to MU being #1 on that Monday.
The dynamics would have been different going into Madison.
Not saying MU would win, and it definitely wouldn't playing the dumpster fire ball they played for 30 of the 40 mins, but they would have had a different edge as #1.

Even so, don't forget Marquette was right there quickly in the 2H before things unraveled again.

Again, I can see both sides of the coin but an undefeated non-con wouldn't have been as wild as some are saying it would've been, so I understand Brew's sentiment even though I still call it an A-

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2023, 02:35:33 PM
Sure. I guess I just have higher expectations for this team than the rest of Scoop does. And I grade accordingly. If you guys want to grade them on an easy scale where try hard is a B and perform as expected is an A, that's your prerogative. But there's no world in which I feel this team has exceeded my expectations, so B- it is.

I also graded them relative to expectations and gave them a B+. Though if it's relative to other MU seasons, then it's an A+. I don't miss playing 8 cupcakes a year (9 in the 2007 season you referenced).

There have been threads or posts on scoop over the years that completely blew my mind and this is one is the climbing the ladder quickly. They played the best non conference schedule in school history, been ranked between 3-8 all season, has a first team AA, up to to 4-5 potential NBA players and we are debating a grade and comparing this team to other MU teams is crazy, imo.

As for having high expectations for the team and program, I believe my posts over the years indicate I have an extremely high bar and this team has delivered the goods. Any fan on here that grades a season based on beating UW is officially not a serious basketball fan. Two nearly flawless games against top 12 teams is how I will remember this NC portion of the season.

We're doing fine. Great team w high upside. Nothing to overly yank the chain about yet. There have been ups and downs. We are a great team, but with flaws.

Gonna enjoy the ride (pawz) and roll with my squad, no matter what the outcome.

B grade this far

Quote from: wisblue on December 16, 2023, 01:58:32 PM
We should take this up again when it gets closer to Selection Sunday and people start stressing over exactly what seed MU will get.

In the meantime, I think you are pretty significantly overstating the difference in win probabilities for the teams in the 4 and 5 spots on the S Curve.

If the bracket is set precisely as dictated by the S Curve (which it isn't because of adjustments that have to be made because of some of the placement principles like avoiding early matchups between teams in the same conference) the 4 and 5 teams will be the 1 and 2 seeds in the same region and they would be on a path to face each other in the fourth round. That game should be something close to a tossup.

If all of the higher seeded teams win their games, the path for the teams would be:

Team 4- Teams 61, 29, and 13

Team 5- Teams 60, 28, and 12

Those teams that are 1 apart on the seed list should be of pretty comparable strength. The relative win probabilities for the higher seeds would be more a function of the specific matchup than playing an inherently inferior opponent.

Obviously there is value in teams earning the highest seed they can get. But once they are placed, the difficulty of their path to the Final Four will be determined in large part by the specific matchups they are faced with and whether higher seeded teams are knocked out before they get to them.

Look at Creighton last year. They had a 6 seed and their path to the Final Four looked like it would go through NC State, Baylor, Arizona, and Alabama. But, because Princeton knocked out Arizona and Missouri, and SD State beat Alabama, once they beat 3 seed Baylor Creighton played a 15 seed and a 5 seed the second weekend.

Yes, hopefully we're discussing the relative merits of being 4 or 5 on the S come March.

I get what you're saying but maybe some of our bracketologists can weigh in - I don't think those S paths are real likely once all the other considerations come in (protected seed locations, conference match ups, etc).

Quote from: Goose on December 16, 2023, 04:19:16 PM
There have been threads or posts on scoop over the years that completely blew my mind and this is one is the climbing the ladder quickly. They played the best non conference schedule in school history, been ranked between 3-8 all season, has a first team AA, up to to 4-5 potential NBA players and we are debating a grade and comparing this team to other MU teams is crazy, imo.

As for having high expectations for the team and program, I believe my posts over the years indicate I have an extremely high bar and this team has delivered the goods. Any fan on here that grades a season based on beating UW is officially not a serious basketball fan. Two nearly flawless games against top 12 teams is how I will remember this NC portion of the season.

Yes, it is a great start against an incredible schedule. But I think my (and maybe Brew's and others') point is that I would have expected this from this team. For DePaul this would have been an A+++++++++ start. For a title-contending blue blood it would be a B- . If we want to be there we need to act like we belong.

Is it permissible to give NIL money contingent on beating Bucky?

Quote from: Goose on December 16, 2023, 04:19:16 PM
There have been threads or posts on scoop over the years that completely blew my mind and this is one is the climbing the ladder quickly. They played the best non conference schedule in school history, been ranked between 3-8 all season, has a first team AA, up to to 4-5 potential NBA players and we are debating a grade and comparing this team to other MU teams is crazy, imo.

As for having high expectations for the team and program, I believe my posts over the years indicate I have an extremely high bar and this team has delivered the goods. Any fan on here that grades a season based on beating UW is officially not a serious basketball fan. Two nearly flawless games against top 12 teams is how I will remember this NC portion of the season.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 16, 2023, 02:58:11 PM
Also, you kind of referenced coming into the year ranked in the top 5 and not being that anymore. If playing to our preseason ranking is a consideration, we also played 2 teams that came into the season (and are currently) ranked higher than us this year. So 9-2 would've been expected.

Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

Quote from: Goose on December 16, 2023, 04:19:16 PM
There have been threads or posts on scoop over the years that completely blew my mind and this is one is the climbing the ladder quickly. They played the best non conference schedule in school history, been ranked between 3-8 all season, has a first team AA, up to to 4-5 potential NBA players and we are debating a grade and comparing this team to other MU teams is crazy, imo.

As for having high expectations for the team and program, I believe my posts over the years indicate I have an extremely high bar and this team has delivered the goods. Any fan on here that grades a season based on beating UW is officially not a serious basketball fan. Two nearly flawless games against top 12 teams is how I will remember this NC portion of the season.

I hear ya. My dad loved his cars. Every weekend, especially in the summer, he wash and wax his "babies". I come out and say, "Dad the car looks great!" All he could see was the tiny ding or scratch.

Some scoopers are like my Dad, all they can see is that ding or scratch. Of course some scoopers view the UW loss as a total wreck.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 16, 2023, 05:33:54 PM
I hear ya. My dad loved his cars. Every weekend, especially in the summer, he wash and wax his "babies". I come out and say, "Dad the car looks great!" All he could see was the tiny ding or scratch.

Some scoopers are like my Dad, all they can see is that ding or scratch. Of course some scoopers view the UW loss as a total wreck.

...it was a final lap turn 4 wall banger at Indy

Quote from: Viper on December 16, 2023, 05:40:38 PM
...it was a final lap turn 4 wall banger at Indy

It was one loss to a ranked team on the road.

ISE and brew

What are the expectations for BE play? As for me, I want a healthy run of good basketball and be ready for March. I thought 9-2 non conference and 15-5 BE.

Truthfully I have no idea what both of your views were on the team and program five years but I know mine were MU was light years from being elite and I voiced that often. As they sit today, this team is elite and the program is getting closer to being considered elite. IMO, the first 11 games solidified this team being elite and improved the program's overall status.

As for acting like a blue blood, there are a helluva lot of MU fans that need to learn what a blue blood program looks like before they can act like they have been there before. This program has seen modest runs of success in the last 45 years and you do not become blue blood in two years. I believe Shaka will get MU to elite program status but it has been 2+ years.

I had 18-2 in Big East play. I still think that's doable, though I would change which ones the losses were.

I don't think we're a blue blood. Similarly, I don't think of Arizona or Houston as blue bloods, but I think both are very good this year and should expect to win against the vast majority of opponents. I think we should too.

It will take years of sustaining this to be considered close to a blue blood. We're a couple national championships and a couple more Final Fours in the next 10-15 years away from approaching that conversation. But this team is damn good. We have the potential to start down that road with this team.

brew

Were you excited about the 2018 start of the season? Did you think the program was on the rise that year?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

So if the #1 team in the country goes 11-0 with a bunch of Q1 wins, it only gets a C ... or a B- if the grader is generous?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

9-2, in my book, was going to be a very good performance in the non-con. Especially considering we played Purdue in place of what I expected to be Tennessee. A grading of C (or B-) would not reflect that.

If we were 9-2 with a schedule of at Wisconsin, a top 10 team neutral, and 9 cupcakes then yeah. That's not good. But it was our toughest non con in my life. And we're in line for a 1 or 2 seed.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 05:44:01 PM

It was one loss to a ranked team on the road.

Shaka can't beat Big Ten teams, right?

Quote from: Viper on December 16, 2023, 07:05:35 PM
Shaka can't beat Big Ten teams, right?

Nope

Quote from: Goose on December 16, 2023, 06:03:28 PM
brew

Were you excited about the 2018 start of the season? Did you think the program was on the rise that year?

Yes, and I think we pretty much all were. That was the team where it looked like Wojo had put it together. A little longer than hoped for, but we had a couple stars and a foundational roster that should've been together for 2 more years. And the defense was finally not terrible.

2018 was akin to 2022. I thought we had the tools to take it to the next level and it was the year that would set the foundation for what could be a Final Four team the next year. The biggest differences were that Shaka finished the job by winning the Big East while Wojo's team came up short and Shaka kept the team together the next year while Wojo lost key starters.

It really shows where we are now that Shaka elevated us in 2 years beyond Wojo's heights in 7 total years.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2023, 09:21:09 PM
Yes, and I think we pretty much all were. That was the team where it looked like Wojo had put it together.

The pinnacle of the Wojo era (3:00-3:50):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EGvbvpj6KDU

brew

What do you think the signature W was in 2018 that caused your excitement that MU had the makings of a FF team? I struggle to see any win that compares with this season. In fact, I think the loss to Purdue and the win Illinois are better than any of three wins against ranked opponents at the FF. IMO, the current MU program is so far beyond any other time in recent history that it is crazy to even compare them with past teams over the past four decades.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

Huh??

I expected an A in 9th grade trigonometry

I wasnt average

Quote from: MU82 on December 16, 2023, 06:18:56 PM
So if the #1 team in the country goes 11-0 with a bunch of Q1 wins, it only gets a C ... or a B- if the grader is generous?

The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2023, 08:52:19 AM
The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

Agree.

Expectations Matter.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2023, 08:52:19 AM
The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

We're mostly in agreement, Dr. B.

And again, the #1 team going a dominant 11-0 would be exactly where I thought it would be, so a C would be appropriate for a team that failed to exceed expectations.

Just went through employee reviews.  A "Meets Expectations" amounts to a average/slightly above average review (3 out of 5) and you receive the standard cost of living adjustment and your bonus target.  "Exceeds Expectations" (4 out of 5) gets you a higher COLA and higher bonus.  "Superior" (5 out of 5) gets you a promotion, higher base and higher bonus.

Based on the work product so far, it would be difficult for me to promote the Warriors.

The more I'm reading here, the more I realize just how terrible our non-con effort was. I am so pissed that we didn't win them all, and do so by at least 20 points apiece.

I am sick of this underperforming bunch of losers that Shaka-Dukiet keeps running out there, and I wish we had K.O. back to curse them, their mothers and their grandmothers. After that mail-it-in second half against ND, he'd have had them running gassers at the Old Gym until they puked.

My F-minus-minus-minus is starting to feel overly generous.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2023, 08:52:19 AM
The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

The question put forward at the beginning of the thread is "what grade" not "what grade based on your personal expectations". I don't know about the rest of you but when I received grades growing up, they were not based on the teacher's expectations of me personally, but rather their expectations for the entire class.

Based on the standard of a typical grade, I can't see an argument for anything lower than A- (if the "class" is high major teams) or A (if the "class" is all D1).

If you want to have a conversation about grade vs. expectations, I personally think it's a C-. They've mostly been what I expected but have a few more flaws than I was expecting.

Quote from: warriorfred on December 17, 2023, 09:17:51 AM
Just went through employee reviews.  A "Meets Expectations" amounts to a average/slightly above average review (3 out of 5) and you receive the standard cost of living adjustment and your bonus target.  "Exceeds Expectations" (4 out of 5) gets you a higher COLA and higher bonus.  "Superior" (5 out of 5) gets you a promotion, higher base and higher bonus.

Based on the work product so far, it would be difficult for me to promote the Warriors.

You're doing employee reviews wrong (or applying the metaphor incorrectly). "Meets expectations" isn't about meeting your personal expectations of a specific employee, it's about meeting the expectations for the average employee in that position.

For example:
Employee A: Goes into year with high expectations based on past performance. Meets those sky high expectations but doesn't exceed them.
Employee B: Goes into year with low expectation based on past performance. Greatly exceeds those rock bottom expectations, becoming a competent employee....but is still significantly underperforming compared to Employee A.

By your logic, you would promote Employee B and give Employee A a "meets expectations". I'm assuming you wouldn't actually do that and are just applying the wrong metaphor.

This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

Quote from: Goose on December 17, 2023, 08:22:10 AM
brew

What do you think the signature W was in 2018 that caused your excitement that MU had the makings of a FF team? I struggle to see any win that compares with this season. In fact, I think the loss to Purdue and the win Illinois are better than any of three wins against ranked opponents at the FF. IMO, the current MU program is so far beyond any other time in recent history that it is crazy to even compare them with past teams over the past four decades.

You misinterpreted the comparison. 2018 and 2022, so comparing 2018-19 to 2022-23. Both years I believed we were good enough to win the Big East and both years we should've brought everyone back the next year (so 2019-20 and 2023-24) to compete for a national title. We should've won the Big East in 2019 (Markus' injury and Wojo's mismanagement cost us) while we did it last year. We would've been a NC contender in 2019-20 if everyone comes back (and if there's a tourney) and we are one this year.

Honestly, though, the question was "What is your grade for the non-com season?" and the grade I give this team is the B- I give them. An A would've required us to win Maui and beat Bucky. So yes, undefeated at this point would be an A. We're not undefeated, so it's not an A. If people want to consider me a harsh grader, so be it, but I'm grading this team on the curve they created by doing what they did last year and by the expectations for this year. I still think we can win the Big East, win the BET, get a 1-seed, go to the Final Four, and win the national championship. And I will base any season long grades on whether they do those things or not. If other people want to compare them to the Big East average and give them an A for a top-4 league finish and earning an NCAA bid, then that's their prerogative. But it's not my standard.

Also...I get that it's cool to hate on the Wojo era, but that string was a blast. K-State, Bucky, and Buffalo in a 21-day span in front of absolutely electric crowds while Howard just toyed with opponents, the Creighton OT win with Markus going for 53, starting 12-2 in the Big East, that year was fun and the team was good. Then it all went to crap and that's where the end of the Wojo era started. But I can acknowledge the good parts of it as well.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 17, 2023, 09:49:12 AM
This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

It's my fault, apparently I can't hold this team to high standards without upsetting the Scoopiest Scoopers.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 17, 2023, 09:41:39 AM
You're doing employee reviews wrong (or applying the metaphor incorrectly). "Meets expectations" isn't about meeting your personal expectations of a specific employee, it's about meeting the expectations for the average employee in that position.

For example:
Employee A: Goes into year with high expectations based on past performance. Meets those sky high expectations but doesn't exceed them.
Employee B: Goes into year with low expectation based on past performance. Greatly exceeds those rock bottom expectations, becoming a competent employee....but is still significantly underperforming compared to Employee A.

By your logic, you would promote Employee B and give Employee A a "meets expectations". I'm assuming you wouldn't actually do that and are just applying the wrong metaphor.

We are fairly close on this.  In your example, Employee B is in a different (lower) role than Employee A.  Consequently Employee A, in a different role has different (higher) expectations.

Looking at projects, goals, and objectives for the year, and based on job functions and past performance, Marquette is in a different (higher) role.  Start the season ranked 5 in the AP, with average fan base expectations of Final Four, and the overall expectations and job requirements are higher.  Marquette in the Top 10, has much different job requirements and expectations than a school ranked 25.

At this point (mid year review) Marquette should be 6 in the AP poll on Monda, had some big wins (Kansas and Texas) had a tough loss (Purdue), and underperformed against the Badgers.  Overall, a positive review of Exceeding Expectations, but not Elite performance.

Would not recommend promoting Marquette at this time, but there are number of unfinished projects: Big East season, Big East Tournament, and NCAA Tournament.  We'll see how they perform in the four (4) months.

brew

I asked what grade did you give the 2018 non-conference part of the season. I know you have gave this year a B-.  For the record, in my previous post I said my grade for 2018 was a B+. I also liked the start and the games you noted. That said, that was nowhere near the non-conference that MU just completed.

I also hoped that 2018 was turning point for the program but struggle to see any comparison to the current state of the program. To me, I was hoping back then, today I know the program is here to stay as long as Shaka is the HC.

I respect your fandom and enthusiasm but think you missed the mark in this thread. Based on your evaluation of this non-conference I think you are going to be disappointed more often than not. IMO, this was the best and most exciting start to a season since 1978.

Quote from: Goose on December 17, 2023, 10:20:43 AM
brew

I asked what grade did you give the 2018 non-conference part of the season. I know you have gave this year a B-.  For the record, in my previous post I said my grade for 2018 was a B+. I also liked the start and the games you noted. That said, that was nowhere near the non-conference that MU just completed.

I also hoped that 2018 was turning point for the program but struggle to see any comparison to the current state of the program. To me, I was hoping back then, today I know the program is here to stay as long as Shaka is the HC.

I respect your fandom and enthusiasm but think you missed the mark in this thread. Based on your evaluation of this non-conference I think you are going to be disappointed more often than not. IMO, this was the best and most exciting start to a season since 1978.

I don't remember grading it in the moment. Feel free to dig and find it, but I'm not really here to rehash 2018-19 again other than to acknowledge it was an awesome ride for the first few months of the season, especially at Fiserv.

And I wasn't disappointed by this non-con. I don't know why anyone would think that. That's why I gave them a B- despite what I consider to be C results. I really don't care because this non-con meant very little, IMO.

My disappointment will all come in March or April. Lost to Purdue? I didn't love it, thought we had some bad breaks in that game and if Kam's late effort drops I have zero doubt we win in overtime because they once again got lucky to beat us. Lost to Bucky? Also didn't love it, but I'm not that invested in December non-con games and I forgot about it by the next day. When asked about it at work, I told people "I didn't see that any differently than if the Bucks lost a game in December on the road to the Bulls. Not ideal, but has zero impact on my outlook for the season." Came close against St. Thomas? Tip the cap at the effort, but do not care in the least.

And my own expectations are going to change season to season. In year one, I thought we could be on the right side of the bubble and we were. I was pleased with how that went. Last year, I thought we were about a top-15 team coming into the season because I thought the offense was radically better than most expected and thought the defense would improve. We exceeded even my expectations. This year, I think we're a top-5 NC contender. So I'm going to base my evaluation on that. Next year, I'll look at what we are and make a determination that that point. I anticipate lower expectations in October 2024 than I had two months ago.

Regardless, I haven't been disappointed at all since we hired the guy I wanted for the job. And even if we don't cut nets on his birthday this year, my disappointment is based on long-term results. I want a national title in my lifetime. My hope is that gives me about 40 years to see it. I'll see plenty of disappointment in that time, but if I avoid it once, I'll be more than satisfied.

Quote from: mu_eyeballs on December 14, 2023, 11:30:56 PM
A really I think the loss at Madison isn't getting enough Maui hang over talk.  I know that I was still kinda turned around a week after I got back.  Not a right off excuse...I'm just saying they played flat with no energy...maybe they actually had low energy?
Anyway with a schooling of Kansas and a gem in Champaign these boys earned an A.

I agree with this analysis.

brew

This was the most significant non-conference schedule and performances in decades. It showed the national audience last year was not a fluke and this year MU is better. This is how a program is built. Recruiting becomes easier, more money to NIL, more credibility to Shaka a coach and MU as a program.

November and December saw very meaningful games played and created an outstanding early season resume. On paper, and on computer rankings, MU has very little opportunity to pad a resume aside from winning every game outside of UConn and Creighton.

In my mind, there are a handful of road games against teams ranked sub 50 in the rankings that are tough outs. MU should handle business but only MU fans will care if they beat Villanova , Providence or Butler on the road. Losses there will hurt MU and wins will keep them steady.

Again, there is no one a bigger backer of long term than me, but the first 11 games were another major part of building the foundation for long term success. I am changing my A- to an A+ because of what this means to the program moving forward.

Until we cut nets on a Monday in April, I'm leaving a margin for improvement. But if people want to call it an A+, that's the power of Scoop. You can all do you, the only difference is I'm not going to bother begrudging people their opinions in this thread.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 17, 2023, 09:33:01 AM
The question put forward at the beginning of the thread is "what grade" not "what grade based on your personal expectations". I don't know about the rest of you but when I received grades growing up, they were not based on the teacher's expectations of me personally, but rather their expectations for the entire class.

Based on the standard of a typical grade, I can't see an argument for anything lower than A- (if the "class" is high major teams) or A (if the "class" is all D1).

If you want to have a conversation about grade vs. expectations, I personally think it's a C-. They've mostly been what I expected but have a few more flaws than I was expecting.

Then the thread is a stupid one as we get a grade versus everyone else in the classroom after every game from KPom.  It's even adjusted on the curve for us.

Goose - at the start of the season I would have expected 17-3 in conference. Now I'd expect 16-4.

If one grades on a game by game basis (say out of 10 pts) I can see a plausible case under that approach for giving a B+ overall grade. I don't see how anyone gets to an A without saying they're just going to ignore UW (and STU) - if you're going to ignore the UW loss, you might as well ignore the KU win.

My grade was probably thinking more along vs. expectations - nicely proxied by the spread - where ATS is a "C". Given we were 5-5-1 ATS a B- is reflective of some of the really expectational performances (KU, Ill, Tx)

And of course these grades are team specific - DePaul against that slate it would be an A++++++ non-con.

But - like Brew - all I really care about this season (and really every season) is March success. Non-con only matters in that it sets us up better or worse for that.

All facetiousness aside, it appears that most of us are on the same page as for this season being all about what happens in March and April.

That's definitely where I am. Winning the Big East again would be lovely, but doing so or not doing so will not affect how I feel about this team. I would have absolutely no problem if Marquette produces an exact replica of UConn's 2022-23 season, even if that includes the 2-6 stretch UConn endured last winter and a loss in the BET semis.

Final Four or Bust should be the absolute minimum expectation for this team. And really, it's time to win an effen title. If we get upset in the second round, I won't call for Shaka's job, but I'll be extremely disappointed, much more than I was last March - and I was plenty disappointed last March.

Related: As I told real chili in another thread, as each game approaches I will expect us to win it. I am a realist so I know we won't win 'em all, which is why I didn't pick us to go 20-0 in the BEast season. No individual loss will scar me unless it occurs after March 18.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 17, 2023, 09:49:12 AM
This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

But at least has stayed on topic.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 17, 2023, 09:49:12 AM
This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

Well, this all could have been avoided if the OP used your grading scale

Quote from: lawdog77 on December 17, 2023, 01:38:14 PM
Well, this all could have been avoided if the OP used your grading scale

It's not complicated

Does the thread meet or exceed your expectations of scoop?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 17, 2023, 09:49:12 AM
This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

Exactly meets my expectation of scoop.

Quote from: tower912 on December 17, 2023, 03:03:28 PM
Exactly meets my expectation of scoop.

COLE

I am COULE when it comes to scoop.
Cult
Of
UNBELIEVABLY
Low
Expectations

Quote from: MU82 on December 17, 2023, 11:41:20 AM
All facetiousness aside, it appears that most of us are on the same page as for this season being all about what happens in March and April.

That's definitely where I am. Winning the Big East again would be lovely, but doing so or not doing so will not affect how I feel about this team. I would have absolutely no problem if Marquette produces an exact replica of UConn's 2022-23 season, even if that includes the 2-6 stretch UConn endured last winter and a loss in the BET semis.

Final Four or Bust should be the absolute minimum expectation for this team. And really, it's time to win an effen title. If we get upset in the second round, I won't call for Shaka's job, but I'll be extremely disappointed, much more than I was last March - and I was plenty disappointed last March.

Related: As I told real chili in another thread, as each game approaches I will expect us to win it. I am a realist so I know we won't win 'em all, which is why I didn't pick us to go 20-0 in the BEast season. No individual loss will scar me unless it occurs after March 18.

I am in the apparent minority that does not consider this season (or any season) to be all about what happens in March and April.

Success in the NCAA tournament can be an ultimate goal and something that can be hoped for, but I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of 4 1/2 months of basketball if all that mattered to me was what happens in 1-3 weekends in late March and early April.

Do you really consider making the Final Four to be a "minimum expectation" for this team? In my dictionary if you expect something to happen you must think it has more than a 50% chance of happening. I doubt if you would be willing to make an even money bet on MU making the Final Four.  If you are, I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd be willing to take you up on it.

Pull out the sophomoric COLE label all you want, but I enjoy supporting and following a team that is entertaining and competitive with a realistic shot at a conference title and deep NCAA run. But I'm not taking a Final Four or Bust attitude. 

Quote from: wisblue on December 17, 2023, 03:47:53 PM
I am in the apparent minority that does not consider this season (or any season) to be all about what happens in March and April.

Success in the NCAA tournament can be an ultimate goal and something that can be hoped for, but I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of 4 1/2 months of basketball if all that mattered to me was what happens in 1-3 weekends in late March and early April.

Do you really consider making the Final Four to be a "minimum expectation" for this team? In my dictionary if you expect something to happen you must think it has more than a 50% chance of happening. I doubt if you would be willing to make an even money bet on MU making the Final Four.  If you are, I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd be willing to take you up on it.

Pull out the sophomoric COLE label all you want, but I enjoy supporting and following a team that is entertaining and competitive with a realistic shot at a conference title and deep NCAA run. But I'm not taking a Final Four or Bust attitude.

I absolutely will enjoy the journey, as I did last season. I already have enjoyed it; I thought the non-con portion of the schedule was entertaining and satisfying despite the couple of losses.

I will continue to get into each and every game, several of which I will travel to attend.

But yes, my ultimate grade for this season will depend on how it ends.

Hopefully with our heroes cutting down the nets.

We Are Marquette!

Quote from: 1SE on December 16, 2023, 04:52:39 PM
Yes, hopefully we're discussing the relative merits of being 4 or 5 on the S come March.

I get what you're saying but maybe some of our bracketologists can weigh in - I don't think those S paths are real likely once all the other considerations come in (protected seed locations, conference match ups, etc).

I mentioned in my post that the bracket does not precisely follow the S curve. But usually (and it was this way last year for the top 32 teams) teams are placed in the seed line that corresponds to their place on the seed list.

That being the case, the difference in the seed rankings of the opponents faced by  a 1 seed and a 2 seed in any given round (assuming the higher seeds have advanced) could be between 1 and 7, and should  usually be closer to 1.

Win probabilities are a slippery concept but, based on Pomeroy's win probabilities, the difference in the win probability for a given team facing a team ranked X and that same team facing a team ranked X+7 (much less X+1) is significantly less than 10%.

Quote from: MU82 on December 17, 2023, 04:03:14 PM
I absolutely will enjoy the journey, as I did last season. I already have enjoyed it; I thought the non-con portion of the schedule was entertaining and satisfying despite the couple of losses.

I will continue to get into each and every game, several of which I will travel to attend.

But yes, my ultimate grade for this season will depend on how it ends.

Hopefully with our heroes cutting down the nets.

We Are Marquette!

Basing an ultimate grade or feeling about a season on how it ends is much different than expecting a Final Four appearance.

Quote from: tower912 on December 17, 2023, 03:03:28 PM
Exactly meets my expectation of scoop.

Scoop Marketing Department sux!!!

Quote from: wisblue on December 17, 2023, 04:08:12 PM
Basing an ultimate grade or feeling about a season on how it ends is much different than expecting a Final Four appearance.

OK. You can be Sultan of Semantics II.

Last year drastically changed things for me when it comes to how I view the season as a whole.
We are all huge basketball junkies and passionate fans, and that run last year was an all timer for me because I wanted a conference title so bad.

I was one of the first to talk about in late January/early Feb and I would have been very disappointed if Marquette didn't win the BE Title.
The two main reasons were because
1- Marquette had not won an outright BE title, and the previous split one was one of my favorite seasons.
2- I knew that winning a Conference Championship would last forever, and a loss was more than likely inevitable in the NCAAt so I wanted that special season to last forever.

Then the fellas went out and one upped it with a BET title to add the icing on the cake.

So, now we have both as fans, but we are yearning the March Madness success.
I'm now so invested after last season that I want a dynasty to begin. How does that happen?
Well winning a Natty or getting to a FF. Much more possible this season than other seasons, but still always a tall task no matter the season.
OR
Win several BE Titles in a short span, rinse and repeat.

Of course Villanova did both, and that's the ultimate, but again that's an extremely difficult thing to do.

So, even thought a National Championship is the ultimate dream and a single one would be enough to let us all die happy, winning BE titles is now a thing and I'd like to see Marquette continue that. So let's go.

I've often thought about what it would be like if Marquette won it all. How incredible that would be.

This is one of the few years where that doesn't seem like a distant dream. Would hate to see a chance like that go to waste with another early exit. So yeah, the lens I view this season through is different than past years.

Quote from: DoctorV on December 17, 2023, 09:33:59 PM
...
I'm now so invested after last season that I want a dynasty to begin....

And I'm sure someone will explain why this is illogical 5 different ways....but this hope is what being a fan is about. I'm with you bro!

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2023, 04:17:14 PM
Scoop Marketing Department sux!!!

Indeed, I've notified all of them that they don't need to show up for work after 12/24.  They're all unemployed henceforth.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 17, 2023, 10:54:07 PM
Indeed, I've notified all of them that they don't need to show up for work after 12/24.  They're all unemployed henceforth.

Did they get proper severance pay in Arby's cupons?

Quote from: Newsdreams on December 17, 2023, 11:07:38 PM
Did they get proper severance pay in Arby's cupons?

You joker.  You know you will only receive a peppermint frosty in severance.   You signed the damn form!

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2023, 11:03:18 AM
Then the thread is a stupid one as we get a grade versus everyone else in the classroom after every game from KPom.  It's even adjusted on the curve for us.

It's scoop.  All the threads are stupid

Quote from: Newsdreams on December 17, 2023, 11:07:38 PM
Did they get proper severance pay in Arby's cupons?

I looked up cupon in the Urban Fictionary, and it mentioned some nasty things in Ponce I can't even imagine.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 17, 2023, 11:26:19 PM
It's scoop.  All the threads are stupid

It's Scoop, It's Scoop = ISIS

That's all

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 18, 2023, 12:30:15 AM
I looked up cupon in the Urban Fictionary, and it mentioned some nasty things in Ponce I can't even imagine.

Darn phone and I get confused switching between español and inglés all the time  ;D