Some like Alan have been ahead of the curve, but for those like me who weren't sure MU's current ceiling was higher than last season, Maui was a wakeup call.
https://painttouches.com/2023/11/24/what-we-learned-about-marquette-in-maui/ (https://painttouches.com/2023/11/24/what-we-learned-about-marquette-in-maui/)
Being able to put up these kinds of rim percentages at the rim with 2/3ds of games against top-20 defenses is wild.
(https://painttouches.files.wordpress.com/2023/11/image-40.png)
The NBA 3pt line excuse is a bit weak. MU has only shot well from three against Rider. Major concern
Three point shooting or not - these folks know how to have fun
https://x.com/aries_sherrie/status/1727385492079993166?s=46&t=el-XnIMOEDcxAw3lmg3L5A
Interesting read, Andrei.
Welcome to joining the rest of us Marquette bulls!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
The NBA 3pt line excuse is a bit weak. MU has only shot well from three against Rider. Major concern
It's a bit of a concern because we've gotten wide open looks. Stevie, Chase, and Sean have to knock that shot down at a better clip. Especially the corner J.
Jop is spacing the floor at least but it that 3rd guard position that needs to make that shot. If not we'll get far more sagging in the paint from our opponents and it will be harder to score inside. Again, these are rhythm J's that should be knocked down. I'm hoping guys will start draining them Dr. B. Kolek may have to launch a bit more too.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
The NBA 3pt line excuse is a bit weak. MU has only shot well from three against Rider. Major concern
3 PT % this season so far and last season:
Kolek - 43.8/39.8
Kam - 40.5/36
Joplin - 37/39.9
Ross - 30.8/32.3
S. Jones - 14.3/31.7
Mitchell - 12.5/30
Gold - 31.3/30
The good news is Kolek, Kam, and Joplin are looking really good so far.
Ross and Gold are around where they were last season and I'm still hoping for some improvement and consistency there. Both of their strokes look good.
The biggest issues right now are Sean and Stevie. They're a combined 4-30 right now. They're not going to continue to struggle at that level, IMO.
Based on this, the 3 point shooting is not a significant concern to me yet. If we're still seeing the same problems a month from now the conversation changes.
I know he's hit two big 3s but Sean isn't a shooter. I think the less volume he takes from 3 the better.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 24, 2023, 01:23:37 PM
I know he's hit two big 3s but Sean isn't a shooter. I think the less volume he takes from 3 the better.
He and Stevie are under 15%. It's not about launching indiscriminately, it's about making more when no one is within 10 feet of them. Both are fully capable of increasing their percentages to at least 30%.
The good news is our traditional three point shooters are doing well, and we are tryin* t9. Extend our three point shooting with other players which 8 believe is intentional and smart. The stakes with high in Hawaii and the pressure was there. A Greta train8ng ground for the "new" three point shooters, they should be chill in most other games this season and might mphit higher percentage. Go Marquette!
Joplin should rarely, if ever, put the ball on the floor.
Quote from: Afroman on November 24, 2023, 02:54:46 PM
Joplin should rarely, if ever, put the ball on the floor.
Yeah, don't think him putting the ball on the floor and backing his man down is a very good option. Neither is Stevie shooting a 3 early in the shot clock.
Disappointing to see because of our expectations. Especially after beating Kansas. I believe Smart beat Bill Self and Kansas three times when they were ranked #1. I don't know if Shaka reminded him of that when they had words at half court after the altercation in front of the MU bench when the Kansas player turned and said something like "Take that you mother carnal knowledge bitches."
Anyway, lets talk about basic basketball strategy. MU was right there against Edey. Give me 3 three pointers and it's game over for Purdue. Kam went 7-13 because the team needed points to stay close and because he can do that. But he shouldn't have to be the cutter when you have Joplin or Ross. Kam is part of the triangle that should be shooting rhythm threes. He was 1 for 2. Ridiculous. One of of best 3 point shooter in college basketball.
Chase should not be missing uncontested layups.
And finally, let's look at this nonsense about foul trouble. I know everyone here will disagree with me. Oso had two and Ben had two and then they each had three. We better sit them. Did either of them foul out? I know it's hard and Smart went to his bench and said I need someone needs to step up and really help us right now. And that's good, it challenges players who want to contribute. And it will eventually pay dividends. But in a situation like this I would and should expect Oso to play hard every minute and I would expect Gold to play hard enough to affect the pushing and shoving. Learn not to back down. Don't play soft.
oilcan, my man ...
It's not the number of fouls Oso had, and it had nothing to do with him "playing soft."
He got #2 pretty early in the game, and Shaka had to sit him. It's not an "excuse" - Oso fully committed the foul, and it was not a good one, 35 feet from the hoop trying to reach in on a guard. Shaka couldn't risk Oso getting #3 in the first half; plus, he trusted Gold.
Gold had an opportunity to impact the game a lot but missed three wide-open 3s. He makes two of those, or even one, and it affects how Purdue/Edey plays defense. Again, it had nothing to do with fouls or "soft."
On Chase's "uncontested" layup, he saw Edey closing in and it caused him to shoot the ball differently. I was surprised he missed, but I understand it.
Kam needs to take more than two 3s, but Purdue was working very hard to take those away from him. Same with Joplin. There was another good team on the floor, a team that will be ranked #1 next week. They have a very good coach, the returning national player of the year, and other pretty good players.
A lot went wrong for Marquette, yet Shaka had his team within a possession and with the ball late.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
The NBA 3pt line excuse is a bit weak. MU has only shot well from three against Rider. Major concern
If it was just MU, sure, though there are levels of "well".
But collectively, the 8 teams shot about 10 points worse from 3 in Hawaii on just as many shots. Whether it was the rims or background or line, it was not MU specific.
And seeing how MU shot from 3 ar Fiserv the games they had the 3 point line early in the 22 season, I'm convinced that's the biggest factor.
My concern level is low.
Quote from: Afroman on November 24, 2023, 02:54:46 PM
Joplin should rarely, if ever, put the ball on the floor.
I agree with this. It started mid-season last year, when he seemed to try to back players down using the dribble. I think he is much more effective shooting threes. Last year he made (by memory) 7 threes against Purdue and this year he made one, which is probably the only one he took. Sure, part of is due to Purdue's defense, but we needed him to take more threes. The wrong people are shooting threes.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 24, 2023, 05:32:12 PM
Yeah, don't think him putting the ball on the floor and backing his man down is a very good option. Neither is Stevie shooting a 3 early in the shot clock.
In Nevada's Shaka's offense they want the open man shooting the 3. They prefer an open look 3 from anyone, over a contested 3 from our best shooters. The amount of time left on the shot clock is irrelevant to the shot selection. If Stevie or anyone in this offense not named Oso doesn't shoot a wide open 3.....they will quickly be replaced by someone with the confidence to do so.
Not super concerned about much with this team. One of our two best and most important players sat 10+ minutes in the first, and couldn't be aggressive for an extra 5 first half minutes, and we still had the ball with the chance to tie against the team that clearly deserves to be #1 in the country. We smoked Kansas. We've already won on the road against a top 25 team.
We can win games in multiple ways, with multiple guys stepping up. We play an entertaining, exciting style.
Life is good as an MU fan.
There is a 0.0% chance MU falls out if the top 5 and I'm guessing we are #3 or #4 (behind UCONN) at worst.
That said, and Shaka alluded to this at his post game presser, MU has a lot of room for improvement. The ceiling of this team remains sky high but I would like to get the 3 ball cooking and kick it up another level.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 25, 2023, 11:42:38 AM
Not super concerned about much with this team. One of our two best and most important players sat 10+ minutes in the first, and couldn't be aggressive for an extra 5 first half minutes, and we still had the ball with the chance to tie against the team that clearly deserves to be #1 in the country. We smoked Kansas. We've already won on the road against a top 25 team.
We can win games in multiple ways, with multiple guys stepping up. We play an entertaining, exciting style.
Life is good as an MU fan.
Perfectly stated, wades.
Quote from: pux90mex on November 25, 2023, 09:58:44 AM
If it was just MU, sure, though there are levels of "well".
But collectively, the 8 teams shot about 10 points worse from 3 in Hawaii on just as many shots. Whether it was the rims or background or line, it was not MU specific.
And seeing how MU shot from 3 ar Fiserv the games they had the 3 point line early in the 22 season, I'm convinced that's the biggest factor.
My concern level is low.
The lines didn't affect Purdue against us. Your theory is Dodds-Shooting Background like. Opponents are leaving our lesser shooters wide open while limiting our shooters on the perimeter.
Enjoyed the analysis. Thank you to Paint touches!
Not concerned at all about this team or its 3-point shooting.
Disappointed that Stevie's 3-point shooting still doesn't look good. I think that is what it is. I think Sean, Chase and Ben will start making more of their 3-point opportunities.
Ben had 2 open looks that he missed against Purdue. He makes those and I believe we win going away even with the foul trouble we had. Ben can make those and as he gets more playing time, he will make those. Remember he missed a lot of time this season and is behind everyone else in terms of conditioning and game needed energy/confidence. He will be a big weapon against the bigger teams we face this year.
MU82 Thank you. I agree with you a lot. I just have opinions about bb strategy. I have different opinions sometimes that annoy people that know the game but don't always agree with me. I'm sometimes wrong, but I'm never in doubt.
This is the biggest one. Foul trouble. If you don't foul out you're not in foul trouble. Against Perdue I suggested that fans expect to see a team in foul trouble play soft. It's reasonable to assume. But why? Why play half your butt off? Grind it all the way.
And why was MU in this situation anyway. Man to man covering ball movement, ball reversals Oso covering a guard out at 35 feet, just floating, and Oso trying for an around the back steal? That was soft. Save it for something that could benefit the team more, like guarding in the paint. In these situations players like Ross and Joplin are more likely to create a turnover, and if they don't and they foul it's less of a problem. Other guys are so hungry to get minutes.
Three point shooting. Well there's only one that can be relied upon and that's Kam. And yet he's called upon time and time again to drive the lane for a basket because he can, and even though TK has the pick and roll with Oso, no other player is able to make plays. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying there's an opportunity there. The team is more than decent as was demonstrated last week in Maui. Maybe a couple of players deferred or were hesitant to step into their roles. And I don't mean the 3- TK, Oso or Kam. They are so good, but they still need help.
Big games coming up. The competition is relentless. The core is there and the supporting cast will gain experience and will figure out how best to improve the team. Ben Gold will get a bloody nose and play like Theo John. Shots will fall from the corner and the cheer leaders will wear shorter skits. But creepy old guys won't record it on their cell phones. We can only hope.
Sometimes you just don't make enough shots - if Gold hits a couple of those wide-open 3s, it makes a big different.
Sometimes players get dumb fouls. You don't think Oso knows that was a dopey foul? It simply happens.
They are human.
The team is more than decent, it is very, very good, one of the best in the country. It's a long season. This won't be our last loss. Enjoy the journey!
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2023, 08:56:28 PM
Sometimes you just don't make enough shots - if Gold hits a couple of those wide-open 3s, it makes a big different.
Sometimes players get dumb fouls. You don't think Oso knows that was a dopey foul? It simply happens.
They are human.
The team is more than decent, it is very, very good, one of the best in the country. It's a long season. This won't be our last loss. Enjoy the journey!
It is so easy to forget the bolded and expect perfection. Our players are not computers. Let's cut them some slack.
The program is in a very good spot when we beat the top ranked team by 14 and lost to the second ranked team by three and we are concerned about and/or nitpicking our shooters.
These are good times.
Forget the humans, just let the Kenpom
Model out the season. That way the best team always wins.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 26, 2023, 09:04:25 PM
It is so easy to forget the bolded and expect perfection. Our players are not computers. Let's cut them some slack.
Keep getting wide open 3s and keep shooting wide open 3s. I have no issue with anyone that has attempted a 3 season and hope they all take a lot more.
That Oso is going to play in the NBA, regardless of whether he can hit a 3 right now. He was MU's best player in Maui. Further evidenced by what happened when he committed that dumb foul for his second against Purdue. He stayed on the floor in the second half and the comeback was nearly completed. I think I read MU was +10 with him on the floor against Purdue.
His performance against those 3 teams moved him up some draft lists.
tower
I mentioned last week that I thought the 2nd half of the UCLA was Oso's coming out party. He put things into a higher gear and kept there the next two games. He played aggressively on both end of the court, played smart and was the best player for MU last week. If that trend continues, he will be playing in the NBA next year.
Against any team with a good/great center, Oso is our most important player. He outplayed two good ones the first two games of the tournament and we won both, the second easily over the #1 team. He got in foul trouble in the third and we lost - we "won" during the time he was on the court, but we couldn't overcome getting beaten badly when he was on the bench.
Because of the importance of the PG position, Kolek probably remains our most important player overall. But we simply have to have Oso on the floor against any team with good bigs.
Thankfully, only one team has a big like Edey.
And luckily, only one team has a big who can do all the things Oso can.
Quote from: tower912 on November 27, 2023, 09:53:42 AM
That Oso is going to play in the NBA, regardless of whether he can hit a 3 right now. He was MU's best player in Maui. Further evidenced by what happened when he committed that dumb foul for his second against Purdue. He stayed on the floor in the second half and the comeback was nearly completed. I think I read MU was +10 with him on the floor against Purdue.
His performance against those 3 teams moved him up some draft lists.
I don't know. He should stay in school and work on his game.
One thing on Oso's second foul--while it was frustrating for him to pick that up in that situation and time, it was a function of the system that we've otherwise praised and was the biggest factor in our blowout of Kansas the night before--aggressive, relentless defense that puts a lot of pressure on the ballhandler. Later in the game, Oso did the exact same thing and knocked a ball loose for an easy transition bucket as part of our comeback. That's the gamble that Shaka seems to be willing to make on defense--and unfortunately this time it didn't work in our favor. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a stupid foul--more a calculated risk that sometimes isn't going to work out.
Quote from: MUMountin on November 27, 2023, 02:16:51 PM
One thing on Oso's second foul--while it was frustrating for him to pick that up in that situation and time, it was a function of the system that we've otherwise praised and was the biggest factor in our blowout of Kansas the night before--aggressive, relentless defense that puts a lot of pressure on the ballhandler. Later in the game, Oso did the exact same thing and knocked a ball loose for an easy transition bucket as part of our comeback. That's the gamble that Shaka seems to be willing to make on defense--and unfortunately this time it didn't work in our favor. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a stupid foul--more a calculated risk that sometimes isn't going to work out.
I don't think most here mind having Oso switch and pressure; as you said, it's part of what Shaka does on D that works. But a center reaching in against a guard is a recipe for disaster. Maybe he got away with it once but you're just inviting a foul call there. And if we're playing a team that has an outstanding center, and if our big already has one foul, we simply can't afford it.
I'd be surprised if Oso himself didn't think it was a dopey foul.
Quote from: MU82 on November 27, 2023, 02:25:23 PM
I don't think most here mind having Oso switch and pressure; as you said, it's part of what Shaka does on D that works. But a center reaching in against a guard is a recipe for disaster. Maybe he got away with it once but you're just inviting a foul call there. And if we're playing a team that has an outstanding center, and if our big already has one foul, we simply can't afford it.
I'd be surprised if Oso himself didn't think it was a dopey foul.
My point is that is a bit of outcome bias--if he had timed his swipe better and knocked the ball loose and gotten a transition bucket, we would just think that is great defense (as he did late in the game when he already had at least 2 fouls). Most of the time, that is going to work for us--and so far, the results are pretty good overall! Occasionally, it will hurt as it did then with getting his hand caught in the cookie jar. But I think we should recognize it as part of what Shaka wants them to do, even if it sometimes backfires--it is part of the scheme, not a bug in it.
He reached far away from the basket. Was a bad play. It happens, but no reason for that reach.
Quote from: MUMountin on November 27, 2023, 02:36:16 PM
My point is that is a bit of outcome bias--if he had timed his swipe better and knocked the ball loose and gotten a transition bucket, we would just think that is great defense (as he did late in the game when he already had at least 2 fouls). Most of the time, that is going to work for us--and so far, the results are pretty good overall! Occasionally, it will hurt as it did then with getting his hand caught in the cookie jar. But I think we should recognize it as part of what Shaka wants them to do, even if it sometimes backfires--it is part of the scheme, not a bug in it.
Shaka does not want him to reach on a guard 30 feet from the basket when he already has one foul. Oso is a very smart player but that was a costly mistake.
Yeah, there is really no reason to make excuses for it. That was a very bad decision by Oso.
Although later in the game he did the same thing on a trap and it led to a breakaway. Definitely in the defensive game plan.
My question then is whether it was also a bad decision when he did almost the exact same thing at 16:31 in the second half. MU had been mostly trading buckets since half, and was down 10. Oso had two fouls and aggressively hedged out on Loyer and made a very similar reach/swipe at the ball as he did in the first half. This time he got the ball cleanly and got a runout layup, cutting the lead to 8 and pumping the MU crowd back up. But, he could have just as easily picked up his third foul and sat back down for the next 6+ minutes--and likely game over at that point.
Do you see a distinction between the two or did he twice make a bad decision?
Quote from: MUMountin on November 27, 2023, 04:05:16 PM
My question then is whether it was also a bad decision when he did almost the exact same thing at 16:31 in the second half. MU had been mostly trading buckets since half, and was down 10. Oso had two fouls and aggressively hedged out on Loyer and made a very similar reach/swipe at the ball as he did in the first half. This time he got the ball cleanly and got a runout layup, cutting the lead to 8 and pumping the MU crowd back up. But, he could have just as easily picked up his third foul and sat back down for the next 6+ minutes--and likely game over at that point.
Do you see a distinction between the two or did he twice make a bad decision?
Yes. The time of the game is the distinction.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 27, 2023, 04:07:26 PM
Yes. The time of the game is the distinction.
So not the fact that he was reaching in on a guard 30' away from the basket (as others have mentioned)?
I can see an argument about game clock. But the action itself seems very similar and a reflection of the defensive game plan--and would seem hard to coach the necessary aggressiveness without accepting the risk of sometimes picking up the foul--especially the night after doing much of the same against #1 KU without significant foul trouble.
Quote from: MUMountin on November 27, 2023, 04:20:13 PM
So not the fact that he was reaching in on a guard 30' away from the basket (as others have mentioned)?
I can see an argument about game clock. But the action itself seems very similar and a reflection of the defensive game plan--and would seem hard to coach the necessary aggressiveness without accepting the risk of sometimes picking up the foul--especially the night after doing much of the same against #1 KU without significant foul trouble.
The early instance (5.5 mins into game, with one foul) was a reach across the body / head at the sideline. The second (losing in second half; foul situation less concerning) was in the middle of the court and was a flick with the ball on Oso's side.
Obviously the circumstances are a huge differences, but I can see going for the flick in situation 2. The first half play was just poor judgment. For what? Why? High risk with little chance for goodness. Some similarities, but mostly different plays imo
The second foul on Oso was unfortunate and foolish. Hopefully the next time better judgment is used. I would rather see it in November than in March.
Well my friends, that was all last week. Big wins against stout competition. Especially for Oso. He out performed 3 good competitors. Edey was unstoppable. And despite the foul problems MU was right there. I like the reminder about Chase Ross hitting 7 threes in last years game. Wow. This was not only a test but another reminder that this team is very talented. Offensively and defensively. It will be easier going forward, at least until we hit the harder games in the Big East. You would be hard pressed to name a better back court. The rebounding was decent enough to fly out of Maui with a 2nd place trophy. No complaints. No injuries. Get back home and get ready for the next four and then a cupcake before the Providence game. I would expect MU to be 10-1 at that point. You should expect the same.
Meanwhile, I just knocked over my drink at Miss Katie's and I'm getting kicked out. Damn. If you're free and if you in the neighborhood maybe you could give me a ride home. Oh, forget it. I'll figure it out.
No extra lines on the floor, shot 31% from beyond the Saturn rings.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 28, 2023, 11:30:56 PM
No extra lines on the floor, shot 31% from beyond the Saturn rings.
Discount 0/4 from walkons and Amadou.
That's nearly 36%.
Better, but still.
Tyler going to be at 11/21 for 52%
Kam going to be at 16/38 for 42%
Jop going to be at 13/33 for 39%
You can imagine what the rest are...
18 total made 3s amongst the others, don't want to count the attempts
Quote from: DoctorV on November 28, 2023, 11:49:03 PM
Discount 0/4 from walkons and Amadou.
That's nearly 36%.
Better, but still.
Tyler going to be at 11/21 for 52%
Kam going to be at 16/38 for 42%
Jop going to be at 13/33 for 39%
You can imagine what the rest are...
18 total made 3s amongst the others, don't want to count the attempts
Guys left open 2-21 tonight. Kam with one attempt tonight.
Emperor's new clothes. End of the day, this team must hit the open, uncontested threes up and down the roster. This offense is predicated on it. More so, opposing defenses are preying on it.
Source: Eye Test
Quote from: DoctorV on November 28, 2023, 11:49:03 PM
Discount 0/4 from walkons and Amadou.
That's nearly 36%.
Better, but still.
Tyler going to be at 11/21 for 52%
Kam going to be at 16/38 for 42%
Jop going to be at 13/33 for 39%
You can imagine what the rest are...
18 total made 3s amongst the others, don't want to count the attempts
You could even discount Lowerys 0/3 as well as he isn't a part of the rotation in typical games. So the main rotation was 10/25 or 40%.
That being said, Gold, Sean, Chase , and Stevie need to start making those. Better teams will deny the paint and we need to be able to punish them by making the open three. I'm not worried, we know all four are capable. Tre can also earn some kinutes by knocking down open threes
I was encouraged by Gold's last couple 3-point attempts after his first three looked flat, with no chance of going in.
The fourth had nice arc but it rimmed out, and the fifth swished through. Not easy to keep shooting in a game like that after missing badly early.
Hopefully figuring some things out. We need those couple/few 3s a game that he'll be given by opposing defenses. Look how big they were against Kansas - totally squelched any chance of KU rallies.
Gold was the minutes leader last night. There are times I think he looks like he missed 6 weeks of conditioning and footwork drills compared to the rest of the team. Then I see flashes of what he can be, like driving the lane and throwing the lob to Amadou.