In some good news, a new poll shows belief in such things as god and the devil have declined. The future of god is grim
https://www.yahoo.com/news/belief-god-devil-falls-low-164300978.html
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 22, 2023, 06:46:38 AM
In some good news, a new poll shows belief in such things as god and the devil have declined. The future of god is grim
https://www.yahoo.com/news/belief-god-devil-falls-low-164300978.html
But the future of grim is on a nice little run. Unless you stop it.
Too much about the profits. Not enough about the prophets. Too much fear mongering, not enough Golden Rule. Anybody advocating hate in God's name simply has it wrong.
Just looking at the poll itself, there were a few interesting numbers. The one that surprised me the most: "While 94 percent of Protestants said they believe in God, 85 percent of Catholics said the same."
In other words, 15% of people who identify as Catholics don't even believe in god.
Quote from: MU82 on July 22, 2023, 11:16:17 AM
Just looking at the poll itself, there were a few interesting numbers. The one that surprised me the most: "While 94 percent of Protestants said they believe in God, 85 percent of Catholics said the same."
In other words, 15% of people who identify as Catholics don't even believe in god.
That's not weird. How many women don't think they are a woman, or men don't believe they are a man? ;)
Nvm
Quote from: WhiteTrash on July 22, 2023, 11:43:58 AM
That's not weird. How many women don't think they are a woman, or men don't believe they are a man? ;)
Perfect response from you, including the ;)
Quote from: MU82 on July 22, 2023, 11:16:17 AM
Just looking at the poll itself, there were a few interesting numbers. The one that surprised me the most: "While 94 percent of Protestants said they believe in God, 85 percent of Catholics said the same."
In other words, 15% of people who identify as Catholics don't even believe in god.
Catholicism is going the way of Judaism, where it is becoming a cultural affinity as much as it is a religious one.
Quote from: warriorchick on July 22, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
Catholicism is going the way of Judaism, where it is becoming a cultural affinity as much as it is a religious one.
Yeah but catholicism isn't exactly something that the non-religious would want to associate with given its recent (and really, entire) history. Plus you don't even get to treat yourself to a fun birthright trip to a war zone.
Quote from: warriorchick on July 22, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
Catholicism is going the way of Judaism, where it is becoming a cultural affinity as much as it is a religious one.
I have experience with the Judaism half of that but not the Catholicism half, so I'll take your word for it. That would explain at least some of the polling.
I just took a look at the poll (not just the article) and Jewish people's views were never mentioned. I'd have been interested to see them.
Quote from: warriorchick on July 22, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
Catholicism is going the way of Judaism, where it is becoming a cultural affinity as much as it is a religious one.
I could see how this is true. I know a lot of people that were raised Catholic, and confirmed Catholic, but really don't believe in religion anymore. They still identify as Catholic though.
Quote from: forgetful on July 22, 2023, 09:56:08 PM
I could see how this is true. I know a lot of people that were raised Catholic, and confirmed Catholic, but really don't believe in religion anymore. They still identify as Catholic though.
That's bc they don't want to be associated with the racist / homophobic / xenophobic mess that is Evangelicals.
Quote from: The Lens on July 23, 2023, 06:28:19 AM
That's bc they don't want to be associated with the racist / homophobic / xenophobic mess that is Evangelicals.
I probably should say something about white nationalists as well.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 22, 2023, 06:46:38 AM
In some good news, a new poll shows belief in such things as god and the devil have declined. The future of god is grim
https://www.yahoo.com/news/belief-god-devil-falls-low-164300978.html
...and you went to Marquette?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 23, 2023, 08:49:03 AM
...and you went to Marquette?
What does going to school at Marquette have to do with understanding the destruction caused for centuries by religion? Or understanding if there is a god, pretty safe bet none of the religions of the world have a clue about such a thing? Or understanding the dangerous road America is on forcing religious zealotry on citizens who don't believe in such things?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 22, 2023, 06:46:38 AM
In some good news, a new poll shows belief in such things as god and the devil have declined. The future of god is grim
https://www.yahoo.com/news/belief-god-devil-falls-low-164300978.html
The future of God is grim?
In spite of your poll, I'm betting on God.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 23, 2023, 08:51:47 AM
What does going to school at Marquette have to do with understanding the destruction caused for centuries by religion? Or understanding if there is a god, pretty safe bet none of the religions of the world have a clue about such a thing? Or understanding the dangerous road America is on forcing religious zealotry on citizens who don't believe in such things?
America is doomed
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on July 23, 2023, 09:11:19 AMIn spite of your poll, I'm betting on God.
Egyptians in 616 AD: "I'm betting on Ra."
Norse in 1066 AD: "I'm betting on Odin."
Hellenics in 1912: "I'm betting on Zeus."
Heaven's Gate in 1997: "I'm betting on Hale-Bopp."
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 23, 2023, 09:16:20 AM
America is doomed
Yes, if we let the religious fundamentalists have their way
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 09:22:47 AM
Egyptians in 616 AD: "I'm betting on Ra."
Norse in 1066 AD: "I'm betting on Odin."
Hellenics in 1912: "I'm betting on Zeus."
Heaven's Gate in 1997: "I'm betting on Hale-Bopp."
Your point is??
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 23, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
Odin > Christian God
That's fine. It's a binary choice that everyone makes.
But God, as with Mark Twain-----the reports of His demise are greatly exaggerated.
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on July 23, 2023, 09:45:08 AM
That's fine. It's a binary choice that everyone makes.
But God, as with Mark Twain-----the reports of His demise are greatly exaggerated.
Well, Mark Twain was real
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 23, 2023, 09:53:07 AM
Well, Mark Twain was real
Actually, he wasn't. Samuel Langhorne Clemens was real.
Organized religion really only has itself to blame for it becoming a less prominent part of our society. It's missteps have been many.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 23, 2023, 10:27:19 AM
Actually, he wasn't. Samuel Langhorne Clemens was real.
Don't get upset. Scoop is welcoming to all forms of hate and bigotry.
i feel sorry for those who don't believe in God-they must be some very lonely souls. without getting personal, way too many "things" have occurred in my life to even think it was just, oh lucky you or chit just happens. foot prints in the sand. thoughts and prayers to ya'll
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 23, 2023, 05:40:17 PM
i feel sorry for those who don't believe in God-they must be some very lonely souls. without getting personal, way too many "things" have occurred in my life to even think it was just, oh lucky you or chit just happens. foot prints in the sand. thoughts and prayers to ya'll
Imagine looking down on people that don't share your fantasy.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 23, 2023, 06:07:32 PM
Imagine looking down on people that don't share your fantasy.
imagine thinking you have to try to disprove the existence of God, when that cannot be done.
I am a believer. Huge fan of the gospel Jesus. Infuses all of my other beliefs.
Quote from: tower912 on July 23, 2023, 06:36:09 PM
I am a believer. Huge fan of the gospel Jesus. Infuses all of my other beliefs.
Preach
Quote from: tower912 on July 23, 2023, 06:36:09 PM
I am a believer. Huge fan of the gospel Jesus. Infuses all of my other beliefs.
Yep.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 23, 2023, 06:30:40 PM
imagine thinking you have to try to disprove the existence of God, when that cannot be done.
I can't disprove the existence of Gandalf either. I don't really care to. Who cares about fantasy characters?
Still weird to feel sorry for people that aren't into whatever your fandom is. I don't feel bad for people that don't like Star Trek as much as I do, ya know?
1. When it comes to deities and the like, believe what you want to believe.
2. Respect how or what others believe (or disbelieve).
3. Don't impose your beliefs on others who don't share them.
4. Don't cry foul when people call you out for not living in accordance with your professed beliefs. Thank them.
Quote from: tower912 on July 23, 2023, 06:36:09 PM
I am a believer. Huge fan of the gospel Jesus. Infuses all of my other beliefs.
I also understand skepticism and unbelief.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 23, 2023, 07:05:22 PM
I can't disprove the existence of Gandalf either. I don't really care to. Who cares about fantasy characters?
Still weird to feel sorry for people that aren't into whatever your fandom is. I don't feel bad for people that don't like Star Trek as much as I do, ya know?
ND Sucks
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 23, 2023, 05:40:17 PM
i feel sorry for those who don't believe in God-they must be some very lonely souls. without getting personal, way too many "things" have occurred in my life to even think it was just, oh lucky you or chit just happens. foot prints in the sand. thoughts and prayers to ya'll
Honestly, I feel sorry for people that lean on religion. If that's what you need to get through your day/week/life, I guess you do you, but I really feel like it saps all meaning out of the life we are actually living. It doesn't really matter what happens here, you think you have a get out of jail free card in the afterlife. When you know there isn't an afterlife, then this reality is all you have. The decisions you make here, the life you live here is what actually matters.
I don't know...life would feel pretty meaningless if it were all just a precursor to an afterlife. Just means that everything that happens here doesn't actually matter. How depressing.
But I guess whatever floats your boat.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 09:32:40 PM
Honestly, I feel sorry for people that lean on religion. If that's what you need to get through your day/week/life, I guess you do you, but I really feel like it saps all meaning out of the life we are actually living. It doesn't really matter what happens here, you think you have a get out of jail free card in the afterlife. When you know there isn't an afterlife, then this reality is all you have. The decisions you make here, the life you live here is what actually matters.
I don't know...life would feel pretty meaningless if it were all just a precursor to an afterlife. Just means that everything that happens here doesn't actually matter. How depressing.
But I guess whatever floats your boat.
I disagree a bit. Some of the happiest people I know are true Christians. Sadly the huge majority of those who claim to be christians are bigoted, hate filled frauds.
I have generally found it true that the more people talk about their Christianity, the bigger the fraud.
Never forget that a huge majority of "christians" gleefully voted for a rapist. They gave him a mulligan.
I have respect for you and your beliefs if you're Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Wiccan, as long as you have respect for the beliefs of others.
My uncle was more or less estranged from my very Catholic grandfather for a variety of reasons, including religion, in which he is a vocal atheist who never misses a chance to mock religion or faith. His kids share his atheist beliefs but much closer following the manner and respect of his wife. They willingly attend weddings and religious services of family members and I distinctly remember 2 of my cousins (his children) engaging and understanding/learning more of the Bat Mitzvah service of our other cousin because they knew it was important and their respect made the curious.
My BIL/SIL are modern orthodox Jews. Live in a pretty heavily Jewish part of NJ, kids go to a Jewish school, I think I'm one of the only Gentiles my nieces and nephew interact with on a regular basis. But they've never made me feel out of place or weird. My BIL and his friends are always eager to tell my wife and I about the best new non-kosher food nearby that we should order in when we visit. Same with my son's nanny who is an observant Muslim. She has taught my wife about Ramadan and Eid, but also got us Christmas and Easter cards and little gifts for my son.
I get criticisms and dislike of religion. I'm not the most traditional religious person despite characterizing myself as having strong faith/belief. I think you can have your issues with religion and still be respectful. Endless cracks about flying spaghetti monsters, calling the Bible or other religious books a "fairytale", or the implications that religious or people of faith are gullible or of lesser intelligence is the farthest thing from respectful and make you as intolerant as a Bible thumping evangelicals who think everyone else is on a highway to hell.
I personally find virulent atheists humorous in the fact that, much like vegans or ND grads, they will let you know that they are within 3 min of conversation.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 09:32:40 PM
Honestly, I feel sorry for people that lean on religion. If that's what you need to get through your day/week/life, I guess you do you, but I really feel like it saps all meaning out of the life we are actually living. It doesn't really matter what happens here, you think you have a get out of jail free card in the afterlife. When you know there isn't an afterlife, then this reality is all you have. The decisions you make here, the life you live here is what actually matters.
I don't know...life would feel pretty meaningless if it were all just a precursor to an afterlife. Just means that everything that happens here doesn't actually matter. How depressing.
But I guess whatever floats your boat.
This a pretty flawed way to look at a belief system and feels like you're just smugly generalizing an entire group of people because you disagree with what you perceive to be what they believe. "Lean on religion" to "get them through the day/week/life" ...you give yourself away in the first sentence as thinking they are a joke so you're ready to condemn straight away. Pretend to be ok with their beliefs, but drip with condescension while mischaracterizing them.
I can't think of a single extremely devout person Ive ever known that thinks their mortal life "doesn't really matter". Like do you actually know people who don't care about their life on Earth cause its nothing in regards to the afterlife? That just seems like some leap made based on some skewed perception. I literally was at a traditional Catholic funeral on Friday and the message was "she's in a better place now and we can take peace in the after life, so don't be sad, but lets celebrate a life lived with meaning and purpose and joy. A life that meant so much to her and her loved ones."
Many MANY religious/people of various faiths need to be more accepting and respectful of others unlike them, but that fact alone doesn't mean that faith is a detriment to one's character and worthy of scorn or mockery. As Ive gotten older and read/learned/interacted with information about various religions and faiths, the more Ive learned that there is more that binds us than drives us apart.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 23, 2023, 10:31:45 PM
I personally find virulent atheists humorous in the fact that, much like vegans or ND grads, they will let you know that they are within 3 min of conversation.
You're not wrong.
On the other hand, I've never had an atheist show up on my doorstep trying to give me a Richard Dawkins book and asking whether I have a personal relationship with the void.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 23, 2023, 10:31:45 PM
This a pretty flawed way to look at a belief system and feels like you're just smugly generalizing an entire group of people because you disagree with what you perceive to be what they believe. "Lean on religion" to "get them through the day/week/life" ...you give yourself away in the first sentence as thinking they are a joke so you're ready to condemn straight away.
If you keep your beliefs to yourself, then go on about your day. But as much as condescending rocket "feels sorry" for me, I honestly think he misses the point of what life is actually about. The meaning of life is not and never has been a mystery. It is to live. And you can't maximize that if you believe this life is less important than a hypothetical afterlife.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 10:55:16 PM
If you keep your beliefs to yourself, then go on about your day. But as much as condescending rocket "feels sorry" for me, I honestly think he misses the point of what life is actually about. The meaning of life is not and never has been a mystery. It is to live. And you can't maximize that if you believe this life is less important than a hypothetical afterlife.
I don't understand why you view these as mutually exclusive options. One can maximize their living in this life and still believe in an afterlife.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 09:32:40 PM
Honestly, I feel sorry for people that lean on religion. If that's what you need to get through your day/week/life, I guess you do you, but I really feel like it saps all meaning out of the life we are actually living. It doesn't really matter what happens here, you think you have a get out of jail free card in the afterlife. When you know there isn't an afterlife, then this reality is all you have. The decisions you make here, the life you live here is what actually matters.
I don't know...life would feel pretty meaningless if it were all just a precursor to an afterlife. Just means that everything that happens here doesn't actually matter. How depressing.
But I guess whatever floats your boat.
How do you know this?
St. Ignatius is reported to have said
'Pray as if everything depends on God. Act as if everything depends on you.'
I don't KNOW that there is a God or an afterlife. I TRUST that there is. Regardless, virtue is its own reward.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 23, 2023, 05:40:17 PM
i feel sorry for those who don't believe in God-they must be some very lonely souls. without getting personal, way too many "things" have occurred in my life to even think it was just, oh lucky you or chit just happens. foot prints in the sand. thoughts and prayers to ya'll
So the good things that happen in life are due to god, but the bad things are just chit happens? If god is responsible for the good, wouldn't he also be responsible for all the bad?
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 24, 2023, 06:57:33 AM
So the good things that happen in life are due to god, but the bad things are just chit happens? If god is responsible for the good, wouldn't he also be responsible for all the bad?
No, it's the devil that causes the bad things and the sins you're committing. Sinners never win
Quote from: Jockey on July 23, 2023, 10:02:38 PM
I disagree a bit. Some of the happiest people I know are true Christians. Sadly the huge majority of those who claim to be christians are bigoted, hate filled frauds.
I have generally found it true that the more people talk about their Christianity, the bigger the fraud.
Never forget that a huge majority of "christians" gleefully voted for a rapist. They gave him a mulligan.
Source?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 24, 2023, 07:46:41 AM
History
I wouldn't say a huge majority, but rather a vocal, and oftentimes powerful, minority.
Amen.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 24, 2023, 08:10:33 AM
I wouldn't say a huge majority, but rather a vocal, and oftentimes powerful, minority.
Agree. Jockey's take was way over the top.
Still, the vocal minority is not small, and it's very powerful. Leadership in at least two dozen states work overtime to force their Christianity on a population that collectively has tens of millions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, atheists, etc. They do it unapologetically, brazenly and usually with great hypocrisy as they pick and choose which facets of Christianity suit their narratives.
And in forcing their views of Christianity on their citizens, many of these "leaders" do so with an intense level of cruelness and hate aimed at their most vulnerable constituents -- just as Jesus would have done.
Quote from: Jockey on July 23, 2023, 10:02:38 PM
Never forget that a huge majority of "christians" gleefully voted for a rapist. They gave him a mulligan.
This is incorrect.
A huge majority of white evangelical Christians voted for him. But white evangelicals make up less than a quarter of all Christians.
I could go on about this all day. There's some core trends in society -- including both the concept of individual freedom and an explosion of knowledge -- that's working against all religions in their most traditional form. But, what's evident in this thread is the concept of God compared to the concept of doing evil in His name.
Key issue for Christianity: what does the teachings of Jesus tell us about how we should live our lives? We have millions and millions of words of scripture but the whole thing boils down to one Great commandment" "Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself." That's God's command for all of us.
When I was visiting the Vatican a few years back, I was struck by the paradox of the core teaching of Jesus and the art on the walls showing Christians in battle, fighting infidels. In Salzburg, we visited a bishop's castle where he tortured heretics. These are not prayer driven acts of God but acts of sinful men and women (mostly men) who grossly misinterpreted the word of God.
The same can be said of Klansmen who used Biblical teaching to justify racial discrimination, whippings and even murder of African Americans. If one truly understands the word of God, then this isn't appropriate behavior.
As long as passing the Word is entrusted to people, there's going to be sin and sinners. There's always going to be people who profit off the word of God. But the inherent goodness of God's word should enable us to overcome those who would abuse religion for personal needs. It isn't easy -- trust me, I know.
Finally, Sister, Chick, I know exactly what you mean. Growing up, as we did, in Nashville left Catholics as a rather diverse ethnic group. Heck, there even was a neighborhood called "Vatican Valley" that was located in the hollow below St. Henry's Church. We tended to hang together.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 24, 2023, 09:33:48 AM
This is incorrect.
A huge majority of white evangelical Christians voted for him. But white evangelicals make up less than a quarter of all Christians.
This is the "not all Cubs fans" argument.
Sadly, the loud folks in any given fandom are the memorable ones.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 10:55:16 PM
The meaning of life is not and never has been a mystery. It is to live.
Well said. One of my pet peeves is people searching for the meaning of life. And they do this while life is swirling around them every day.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 23, 2023, 07:15:22 PM
1. When it comes to deities and the like, believe what you want to believe.
2. Respect how or what others believe (or disbelieve).
3. Don't impose your beliefs on others who don't share them.
4. Don't cry foul when people call you out for not living in accordance with your professed beliefs. Thank them.
The Golden Rule - Do unto others as you would have others unto you.
And with quotes from other religions.
https://www.xavier.edu/jesuitresource/online-resources/quote-archive1/golden-rule#:~:text=Top%
Quote from: Jockey on July 24, 2023, 10:15:26 AM
Well said. One of my pet peeves is people searching for the meaning of life. And they do this while life is swirling around them every day.
Serious question. Why is this one of your "pet peeves"? If someone wants to go on a vision quest to find meaning, why does that concern you?
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 24, 2023, 11:12:01 AM
Serious question. Why is this one of your "pet peeves"? If someone wants to go on a vision quest to find meaning, why does that concern you?
It was tongue-in-cheek (sort of).
But mainly because they think it is some deep, deep mystery we will never find the answer to plus then they talk incessantly about their search.
Maybe my wife and I were just lucky to know why we were here without ever having to 'search'.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 09:32:40 PM
Honestly, I feel sorry for people that lean on religion. If that's what you need to get through your day/week/life, I guess you do you, but I really feel like it saps all meaning out of the life we are actually living. It doesn't really matter what happens here, you think you have a get out of jail free card in the afterlife. When you know there isn't an afterlife, then this reality is all you have. The decisions you make here, the life you live here is what actually matters.
I don't know...life would feel pretty meaningless if it were all just a precursor to an afterlife. Just means that everything that happens here doesn't actually matter. How depressing.
But I guess whatever floats your boat.
if you were referring to me brew, i don't lean nor wear my religion on my sleeve. one can be spiritual without needing to make it known that you are trying to do the best you can, given the circumstances, for your higher power.
i'm just saying for those who don't have a "higher power" to seek for peace, guidance or whatever, my opinion is, i would feel lonely, like something is missing. where does the conscience go? for me, ones conscience is their soul; where the real person resides-that's what floats my boat
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2023, 10:55:16 PM
If you keep your beliefs to yourself, then go on about your day. But as much as condescending rocket "feels sorry" for me, I honestly think he misses the point of what life is actually about. The meaning of life is not and never has been a mystery. It is to live. And you can't maximize that if you believe this life is less important than a hypothetical afterlife.
brew, i truly believe you would see my point if you could put aside your disdain for my politics and anything else i may write here that pisses you off. you have trouble separating the two-my opinion on religion and my "other view points" you should probably try sitting back and listening to some of the other comments-wags, doggie,
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 24, 2023, 03:54:38 AM
I don't understand why you view these as mutually exclusive options. One can maximize their living in this life and still believe in an afterlife.
I disagree. The idea of an afterlife, particularly an eternal one, lessens the importance and meaning of the actual human experience. It can't not.
Think of life as currency. If you had infinite currency, the value of the individual dollar is meaningless. In life, moments are that currency, and if life is eternal, then in comparison life is meaningless. It is the finality of life that gives it meaning. All the more reason to live it while you can.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 24, 2023, 06:11:36 PM
I disagree. The idea of an afterlife, particularly an eternal one, lessens the importance and meaning of the actual human experience. It can't not.
Think of life as currency. If you had infinite currency, the value of the individual dollar is meaningless. In life, moments are that currency, and if life is eternal, then in comparison life is meaningless. It is the finality of life that gives it meaning. All the more reason to live it while you can.
What if the afterlife sucks? Think life isUS dollars and afterlife is Zimbabwean dollars. ;D
And more importantly why do they call it afterlife? What if this is just one of many lives? And after this is just another life?
And from what I've read here, the purpose of life is to be critical of the #mubb program.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 24, 2023, 06:11:36 PM
I disagree. The idea of an afterlife, particularly an eternal one, lessens the importance and meaning of the actual human experience. It can't not.
Think of life as currency. If you had infinite currency, the value of the individual dollar is meaningless. In life, moments are that currency, and if life is eternal, then in comparison life is meaningless. It is the finality of life that gives it meaning. All the more reason to live it while you can.
Yeah I just don't view life as a currency or anything like that.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 24, 2023, 09:33:48 AM
This is incorrect.
A huge majority of white evangelical Christians voted for him. But white evangelicals make up less than a quarter of all Christians.
Yeah, Clinton was a POS, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 24, 2023, 07:58:39 PM
Yeah, Clinton was a POS, aina?
Bill or Hillary? Or Chelsea? Or George?
All of 'em, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 23, 2023, 08:51:47 AM
What does going to school at Marquette have to do with understanding the destruction caused for centuries by religion? Or understanding if there is a god, pretty safe bet none of the religions of the world have a clue about such a thing? Or understanding the dangerous road America is on forcing religious zealotry on citizens who don't believe in such things?
I know Marquette is becoming less and less a Catholic institution, but when I attended we were required to have completed 12 credits in theology for Catholic students and 6 for non-Catholics. Theology courses were only 2 credits back then. I was also required to take 9 credits in Philosophy though I majored in Chemistry and Biology.
One of the courses I studied were the Letters of St. Paul. In his first Letter to the Corinthians Chapter 15 he clearly states that if Christ did not raise from the dead then Christianity is a lie. The Corinthians were a tough crowd and many did not believe in the resurrection of the dead and he understood what was at stake. He did not just believe Christ rose from the dead like most Christians, and he had more than a clue, he witnessed it along with many others and has a clear understanding that there is a God in Our Lord Jesus Christ and whoever believes in Him shall not perish.
As to religion causing destruction over the centuries I have no doubt, but religion can be a cause for good and creation as well.
One can believe in God, and follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, without believing in the immaculate conception or that he physically rose from the dead. I can even go with divinely inspired, or a prophet, but I'm not going to believe in something that is inherently not believable.
So I don't think Paul is right about this.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 24, 2023, 07:32:59 PM
Yeah I just don't view life as a currency or anything like that.
It was just an analogy, but it's a stark reality that the more limited something we desire is, the more value we place on it. If you view existence as infinite, it's pretty much impossible to have the same regard for that which is finite.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 25, 2023, 08:44:03 AM
It was just an analogy, but it's a stark reality that the more limited something we desire is, the more value we place on it. If you view existence as infinite, it's pretty much impossible to have the same regard for that which is finite.
Your big assumption here is that if people believed there was not God/afterlife, they would live their life to the fullest, and treat people with respect. I would argue the opposite would happen. People would get a serious case of the F**kits.
Quote from: Jockey on July 24, 2023, 10:15:26 AM
Well said. One of my pet peeves is people searching for the meaning of life. And they do this while life is swirling around them every day.
I think I get what you're trying to say, and I believe deeply in a contemplative life. I live life even more fully by asking questions, by searching rather than immediately condemning or approving. I'm searching for the many meanings of life, it might be ever changing, helps me personally understand and respect people a little more, which I definitely need to improve. People are so damn smart and have way bigger and different world views than I do. To me, that is exciting.
As an aside...what if we are currently in the/an afterlife?
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 24, 2023, 06:11:36 PM
I disagree. The idea of an afterlife, particularly an eternal one, lessens the importance and meaning of the actual human experience. It can't not.
Think of life as currency. If you had infinite currency, the value of the individual dollar is meaningless. In life, moments are that currency, and if life is eternal, then in comparison life is meaningless. It is the finality of life that gives it meaning. All the more reason to live it while you can.
Certainly a fair and understandable train of thought. What if someone who believes in an afterlife uses this life to prove they are worthy of another chance, a better chance? What if a belief in an afterlife helps people be better now knowing the next life/afterlife might be a reckoning, a reward? Maybe it's easy to act a certain way if we think this is the be all, end all.
I don't think necessarily that infinite currency makes the individual dollar meaningless. To the contrary, what if infinite currency opens up limitless possibilities?
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 25, 2023, 08:44:03 AM
It was just an analogy, but it's a stark reality that the more limited something we desire is, the more value we place on it. If you view existence as infinite, it's pretty much impossible to have the same regard for that which is finite.
Unless you view the earthly life and the afterlife as two distinct things.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 25, 2023, 08:52:20 AM
Your big assumption here is that if people believed there was not God/afterlife, they would live their life to the fullest, and treat people with respect. I would argue the opposite would happen. People would get a serious case of the F**kits.
Or maybe you and brew need to meet somewhere in the middle because each individual is different.
Maybe some religious folks live life to the fullest and treat people with respect, and others don't. And some non-religious folks live life to the fullest and treat people with respect, and others don't.
Crazy, I know.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2023, 10:27:18 AM
Or maybe you and brew need to meet somewhere in the middle because each individual is different.
Maybe some religious folks live life to the fullest and treat people with respect, and others don't. And some non-religious folks live life to the fullest and treat people with respect, and others don't.
Crazy, I know.
I get that, and I respect his beliefs. I'm just not a big fan of "knowing there's not an afterlife" and looking down on those that have the faith there is one.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2023, 10:27:18 AM
Or maybe you and brew need to meet somewhere in the middle because each individual is different.
Maybe some religious folks live life to the fullest and treat people with respect, and others don't. And some non-religious folks live life to the fullest and treat people with respect, and others don't.
Crazy, I know.
Crazy indeed!
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 25, 2023, 10:44:07 AM
I get that, and I respect his beliefs. I'm just not a big fan of "knowing there's not an afterlife" and looking down on those that have the faith there is one.
Agreed.
Most of the trappings of religion seem so "out there" to non-religious people that it's difficult to not "look down" on those who have faith. And it's similar the other way -- faith is so strong that many of the faithful can't understand how others don't share the faith.
All I ask is that one's faith not be forced on others. I don't think that should be a very difficult ask, but to many people it seems to be.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 25, 2023, 10:44:07 AM
I get that, and I respect his beliefs. I'm just not a big fan of "knowing there's not an afterlife" and looking down on those that have the faith there is one.
It's a simple logical conclusion. When the heart stops beating and the neurons stop firing, that's it. If there were a prime mover with the capability religion ascribes to its various gods, it would give humanity as much thought as humans do to individual plankton. There are hundreds of conundrums that undermine the notion of religion.
The religious tend to turn a blind eye or believe in defiance of those conundrums. The non-religious are incapable of ignoring them and it is not possible for them to be convinced or swayed. But ultimately, there are only two possibilities. There is no prime mover that cares about individual human existence, or that being exists and has malign intentions. As I can't possibly conceive of a being of that power that would care about us one way or the other, the former is the only logical conclusion.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 25, 2023, 02:55:26 PM
It's a simple logical conclusion. When the heart stops beating and the neurons stop firing, that's it. If there were a prime mover with the capability religion ascribes to its various gods, it would give humanity as much thought as humans do to individual plankton. There are hundreds of conundrums that undermine the notion of religion.
The religious tend to turn a blind eye or believe in defiance of those conundrums. The non-religious are incapable of ignoring them and it is not possible for them to be convinced or swayed. But ultimately, there are only two possibilities. There is no prime mover that cares about individual human existence, or that being exists and has malign intentions. As I can't possibly conceive of a being of that power that would care about us one way or the other, the former is the only logical conclusion.
How do you jump to that?
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 25, 2023, 02:55:26 PM
But ultimately, there are only two possibilities. There is no prime mover that cares about individual human existence, or that being exists and has malign intentions. As I can't possibly conceive of a being of that power that would care about us one way or the other, the former is the only logical conclusion.
As someone who leans strongly agnostic, but is welcoming to the possibility a higher power, I find this little rhetorical trick to be the most obnoxious thing about atheists.
You set up a false dilemma fallacy argument in which "God" - or whatever someone chooses to call their deity - can only be either unthinkably cruel or cannot exist, ignoring infinite other possibilities.
Beyond its weakness as an argument, it's hilariously arrogant (a trait that's never been associated with some atheists) for an atheist to declare what a person of faith must or must not believe. And it's an argument limited to only what the human mind can conceive. I firmly believe that if there is a God, that entity's existence goes far beyond anything our tiny brains can understand. It would have to. Trying to understand God in exclusively human terms, IMO, is folly.
And sorry, atheists, you're not the first to ponder this question. It's been grappled with by theologians for centuries.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 25, 2023, 03:16:21 PM
As someone who leans strongly agnostic, but is welcoming to the possibility a higher power, I find this little rhetorical trick to be the most obnoxious thing about atheists.
You set up a false dilemma fallacy argument in which "God" - or whatever someone chooses to call their deity - can only be either unthinkably cruel or cannot exist, ignoring infinite other possibilities.
Beyond its weakness as an argument, it's hilariously arrogant (a trait that's never been associated with some atheists) for an atheist to declare what a person of faith must or must not believe. And it's an argument limited to only what the human mind can conceive. I firmly believe that if there is a God, that entity's existence goes far beyond anything our tiny brains can understand. It would have to. Trying to understand God in exclusively human terms, IMO, is folly.
And sorry, atheists, you're not the first to ponder this question. It's been grappled with by theologians for centuries.
It's hilarious that true believers can divine what god thinks, wants, says. And worse that they want to impose their interpretation of those thoughts, desires, and words on others.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 25, 2023, 08:20:56 AM
One can believe in God, and follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, without believing in the immaculate conception or that he physically rose from the dead. I can even go with divinely inspired, or a prophet, but I'm not going to believe in something that is inherently not believable.
So I don't think Paul is right about this.
If you actually read First Corinthians chapter 15, for Paul and the others it is not an act of faith but are witnesses to the risen Christ. I understand for you it is inherently unbelievable, but for them it was an experience of a lifetime. Either one does not believe their account which they openly admit if not true, then Christ is a fraud and Christianity is a lie, or one does. It is pretty simple.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 25, 2023, 07:12:32 PM
If you actually read First Corinthians chapter 15, for Paul and the others it is not an act of faith but are witnesses to the risen Christ. I understand for you it is inherently unbelievable, but for them it was an experience of a lifetime. Either one does not believe their account which they openly admit if not true, then Christ is a fraud and Christianity is a lie, or one does. It is pretty simple.
I don't believe their accounts.
And no I don't believe that the only thing that makes Christians Christian is a belief that Jesus of Nazareth actually rose from the dead after three days.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 25, 2023, 09:07:51 PM
I don't believe their accounts.
And no I don't believe that the only thing that makes Christians Christian is a belief that Jesus of Nazareth actually rose from the dead after three days.
I bet I could beat Jesus at tennis
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 26, 2023, 08:06:01 AM
I bet I could beat Jesus at tennis
The Good Lord is a pickleball player.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 26, 2023, 08:27:49 AM
The Good Lord is a pickleball player.
Freaking hippies are always in the way
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 25, 2023, 09:07:51 PM
I don't believe their accounts.
And no I don't believe that the only thing that makes Christians Christian is a belief that Jesus of Nazareth actually rose from the dead after three days.
That is fine. Most Christians profess that belief when they recite the Creed, there are some that do not, but still believe in the resurrection. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and does not believe in the resurrection is kind of missing the point.
Quote from: forgetful on July 22, 2023, 09:56:08 PM
I could see how this is true. I know a lot of people that were raised Catholic, and confirmed Catholic, but really don't believe in religion anymore. They still identify as Catholic though.
Like me!
Not religious, still consider myself spiritual and have been trying to open my mind to other ideas and experiences. But I guess Catholicism is still "home base" in terms of my identity.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 26, 2023, 08:47:28 AM
That is fine. Most Christians profess that belief when they recite the Creed, there are some that do not, but still believe in the resurrection. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and does not believe in the resurrection is kind of missing the point.
Not sure I agree with that. I believe that being a Christian, in its most basic form, is being a follower of the teaching's of Jesus (the Beatitudes).
There are forms of Christianity that do not accept the Nicene or Apostles Creeds. They are no less Christian, IMO.
I am skeptical of any flavor of Christianity that claims to have exclusive access to truth. It is my biggest beef with Catholicism.
Quote from: Coleman on July 26, 2023, 09:58:33 AM
Not sure I agree with that. I believe that being a Christian, in its most basic form, is being a follower of the teaching's of Jesus (the Beatitudes).
There are forms of Christianity that do not accept the Nicene or Apostles Creeds. They are no less Christian, IMO.
I am skeptical of any flavor of Christianity that claims to have exclusive access to truth. It is my biggest beef with Catholicism.
...and is not one of his teachings that He is the resurrection and the life and who so ever believes in Me though he shall die shall live? I know. Some petty profound stuff to rap our minds around as are the beatitudes.
Sure Christians have accepted or rejected parts of the Nicene Creed, but they all accept Christ's resurrection and as I have said to reject the resurrection is missing the central point of calling oneself a Christian.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 26, 2023, 02:52:25 PM
...and is not one of his teachings that He is the resurrection and the life and who so ever believes in Me though he shall die shall live? I know. Some petty profound stuff to rap our minds around as are the beatitudes.
Sure Christians have accepted or rejected parts of the Nicene Creed, but they all accept Christ's resurrection and as I have said to reject the resurrection is missing the central point of calling oneself a Christian.
I thought the main point of calling oneself a Christian is that you follow the
teachings of Christ.
Unfortunately, many Christians miss this most important part.
Hopefully a lotta yall like it hot
Well, the way the heat wave is going...
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 26, 2023, 03:54:48 PM
Hopefully a lotta yall like it hot
lol, nobody believes in a literal hell right? Good grief I have some gold coins to sell you
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 26, 2023, 03:54:48 PM
Hopefully a lotta yall like it hot
"Hell's got all the good bands anyway."
- The Flaming Lips
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 26, 2023, 02:52:25 PM
...and is not one of his teachings that He is the resurrection and the life and who so ever believes in Me though he shall die shall live? I know. Some petty profound stuff to rap our minds around as are the beatitudes.
Sure Christians have accepted or rejected parts of the Nicene Creed, but they all accept Christ's resurrection and as I have said to reject the resurrection is missing the central point of calling oneself a Christian.
IMO "the resurrection" is a symbolic representation of the hope in eternal life by the grace of God. That doesn't need a physical resurrection to take place.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 26, 2023, 06:58:25 PM
IMO "the resurrection" is a symbolic representation of the hope in eternal life by the grace of God. That doesn't need a physical resurrection to take place.
Yeah the number of people in modern society who are unable or unwilling to distinguish mythos from history is discouraging.
What? Next you're gonna tell us that Noah didn't really live till he was 950 years old!
Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2023, 01:04:26 PM
What? Next you're gonna tell us that Noah didn't really live till he was 950 years old!
If it weren't for that darned flood, we would still be able to live that long. Although, not sure how social security would work if that were the case.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 27, 2023, 01:57:01 PM
If it weren't for that darned flood, we would still be able to live that long. Although, not sure how social security would work if that were the case.
They'd have to raise the full retirement age from 67 to 670, which sounds like a current Republican plan to save social security.
Quote from: Coleman on July 27, 2023, 02:13:16 PM
They'd have to raise the full retirement age from 67 to 670, which sounds like a current Republican plan to save social security.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/enreHlNyFBRCNygcIH/200w.webp?cid=ecf05e47xt9zkhbunqqmygax89s8bj9ygyl96z0b58jrnbgg&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.webp&ct=g)
Quote from: Coleman on July 27, 2023, 02:13:16 PM
They'd have to raise the full retirement age from 67 to 670, which sounds like a current Republican plan to save social security.
#Nadjoke
Quote from: Coleman on July 27, 2023, 12:57:33 PM
Yeah the number of people in modern society who are unable or unwilling to distinguish mythos from history is discouraging.
The resurrection is not a myth. If it were Christianity would have been crushed by the Romans a long time ago, as Christians were a threat to the Emperors and declared enemies of the state. I trust the testimony of those who witnessed Christ's life, death and resurrection. There is a reason it is called the New Testament and not a History.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 27, 2023, 06:11:26 PM
The resurrection is not a myth. If it were Christianity would have been crushed by the Romans a long time ago, as Christians were a threat to the Emperors and declared enemies of the state. I trust the testimony of those who witnessed Christ's life, death and resurrection. There is a reason it is called the New Testament and not a History.
I saw a dinosaur come back to life in a movie
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 26, 2023, 06:58:25 PM
IMO "the resurrection" is a symbolic representation of the hope in eternal life by the grace of God. That doesn't need a physical resurrection to take place.
Your opinion is probably no different than those early Corinthians whom Paul addressed in First Corinthians Chapter 15 to convince them otherwise.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 27, 2023, 06:18:04 PM
I saw a dinosaur come back to life in a movie
...and Paul and the others actually saw Christ come back to life.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 27, 2023, 06:29:09 PM
...and Paul and the others actually saw Christ come back to life.
Gabriel appeared to Muhammad in a cave and called him "The Prophet of Allah".
Muhammad split the moon in two. Lots of people witnessed it.
But that's just a fairy tale. Jesus' sh!t was real.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 27, 2023, 06:35:15 PM
Gabriel appeared to Muhammad in a cave and called him "The Prophet of Allah".
Osiris posthumously impregnated Isis with their son, Horus who overtook his father's murderer's throne and completed Osiris's resurrection.
Mocking someone's beliefs is awesome!
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 27, 2023, 06:19:17 PM
Your opinion is probably no different than those early Corinthians whom Paul addressed in First Corinthians Chapter 15 to convince them otherwise.
I mean, maybe Paul was wrong. He was an odd dude.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 27, 2023, 06:11:26 PM
The resurrection is not a myth. If it were Christianity would have been crushed by the Romans a long time ago, as Christians were a threat to the Emperors and declared enemies of the state. I trust the testimony of those who witnessed Christ's life, death and resurrection. There is a reason it is called the New Testament and not a History.
I mean, if longevity and survival in the face of adversity is the test of what makes a true religion, Christianity isn't alone in that regard.
And I trust actual science more than 2,000 year old eye-witness accounts passed down from a verbal tradition until someone decided to write it down.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 27, 2023, 06:54:09 PM
I mean, if longevity and survival in the face of adversity is the test of what makes a true religion, Christianity isn't alone in that regard.
And I trust actual science more than 2,000 year old eye-witness accounts passed down from a verbal tradition until someone decided to write it down.
Just curious, what is actual science when it comes to the (alleged) son of God?
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 27, 2023, 07:00:17 PM
Just curious, what is actual science when it comes to the (alleged) son of God?
Thousands of years of people not actually rising from the dead after three days.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 27, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Thousands of years of people not actually rising from the dead after three days.
So, no actual science when it comes to the son of God. You cannot disprove the resurrection.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 27, 2023, 08:03:08 PM
So, no actual science when it comes to the son of God. You cannot disprove the resurrection.
The burden of proof is squarely on the shoulders of those making the claim.
Paul absolutely did not see Jesus. His conversion was years later.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 27, 2023, 08:18:54 PM
The burden of proof is squarely on the shoulders of those making the claim.
Why is that? I'm not here to convince you. If you don't believe, that is your right.
Quote from: tower912 on July 27, 2023, 08:22:27 PM
Paul absolutely did not see Jesus. His conversion was years later.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-stories/the-road-to-damascus-pauls-conversion.html
Yes. Paul did not see Jesus come back to life.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 27, 2023, 08:48:43 PM
Why is that? I'm not here to convince you. If you don't believe, that is your right.
You are asking someone to prove a negative, that is you taking one side.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
After five takes of this debate, I find much of the discussion interesting and I do hope that some of the esteemed faith leaders at Marquette are reading this. There are exceptional arguments on both sides of religion and many things I've heard for years.
As a person of faith, I admit I struggle with the literal concept of the Resurrection. The notion that Jesus died the awful death He did and then suddenly rose three days later, appearing only to a closed group of disciples, seems extremely far fetched. That's why I identify so much with St. Thomas. He's the patron saint of due diligence.
What I believe as a Catholic Christian is that the Resurrection is a metaphor for the oneness we attain with God on our own death. That's a concept that's hard to communicate in any generation, especially 2000 years ago. A metaphysical Resurrection becomes a "real" one because it's much easier to tell and far more convincing. We gain oneness with God because we accept the challenges God puts before us and handle them in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
For those of you who don't believe, I get that too! One of the most compelling conversations with my own father was a couple years before he died when we were travelling together. He was a CCD teacher and a champion of our faith and I finally had the courage to ask, "do you ever have trouble believing?" His answer was shocking: "of course I do." But he went on to explain the universe is too perfect to believe there is no God. He noted that God may not be what we think God is or should be, but we'll find out soon enough!
Good answer for an engineer!
I admire those whose faith is so strong they "know." Our own Cardinal George in Chicago, when he announced he was dying of bladder cancer, said he was "excited about the fact that he's about to meet God." I truly wish that I could feel the way the Cardinal did. But my own public views notwithstanding, I don't have THAT level of faith. Maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, you do the best you can and hope for growth as a person.
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 27, 2023, 08:03:08 PM
So, no actual science when it comes to the son of God. You cannot disprove the resurrection.
I'm claiming that Jesus was a regular ole human who died like every every other human either did or will do. Claiming that he was the Son of God and therefore special in that manner is your theory. Burden of proof is yours.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 27, 2023, 09:51:12 PM
After five takes of this debate, I find much of the discussion interesting and I do hope that some of the esteemed faith leaders at Marquette are reading this. There are exceptional arguments on both sides of religion and many things I've heard for years.
As a person of faith, I admit I struggle with the literal concept of the Resurrection. The notion that Jesus died the awful death He did and then suddenly rose three days later, appearing only to a closed group of disciples, seems extremely far fetched. That's why I identify so much with St. Thomas. He's the patron saint of due diligence.
What I believe as a Catholic Christian is that the Resurrection is a metaphor for the oneness we attain with God on our own death. That's a concept that's hard to communicate in any generation, especially 2000 years ago. A metaphysical Resurrection becomes a "real" one because it's much easier to tell and far more convincing. We gain oneness with God because we accept the challenges God puts before us and handle them in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
For those of you who don't believe, I get that too! One of the most compelling conversations with my own father was a couple years before he died when we were travelling together. He was a CCD teacher and a champion of our faith and I finally had the courage to ask, "do you ever have trouble believing?" His answer was shocking: "of course I do." But he went on to explain the universe is too perfect to believe there is no God. He noted that God may not be what we think God is or should be, but we'll find out soon enough!
Good answer for an engineer!
I admire those whose faith is so strong they "know." Our own Cardinal George in Chicago, when he announced he was dying of bladder cancer, said he was "excited about the fact that he's about to meet God." I truly wish that I could feel the way the Cardinal did. But my own public views notwithstanding, I don't have THAT level of faith. Maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, you do the best you can and hope for growth as a person.
Yes, Thomas was exactly like you, until he placed his hands on the wounds of Jesus. And Jesus said to him more blessed are they who have not seen and believe. Yes, Thomas lost his faith that day because now he knew.
We are not so fortunate and I appreciate your struggle as I struggle too. I'm being honest here unlike the good Cardinal I don't know, but I believe and that is all Jesus expects from us.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 28, 2023, 06:02:56 AM
Yes, Thomas was exactly like you, until he placed his hands on the wounds of Jesus. And Jesus said to him more blessed are they who have not seen and believe. Yes, Thomas lost his faith that day because now he knew.
We are not so fortunate and I appreciate your struggle as I struggle too. I'm being honest here unlike the good Cardinal I don't know, but I believe and that is all Jesus expects from us.
between you and doggie-this is what scoop is all about! thank you!
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 28, 2023, 03:39:32 AM
I'm claiming that Jesus was a regular ole human who died like every every other human either did or will do. Claiming that he was the Son of God and therefore special in that manner is your theory. Burden of proof is yours.
It is not a theory, it is a proclamation.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 28, 2023, 06:15:30 AM
It is not a theory, it is a proclamation.
Oh, okay then.
I'd still take Jesus in straight sets in a tennis match
If the resurrection is real, Jesus died on a Friday and came back on Sunday. This means he basically sacrificed a weekend for our sins.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 28, 2023, 07:18:56 AM
If the resurrection is real, Jesus died on a Friday and came back on Sunday. This means he basically sacrificed a weekend for our sins.
Guess he didn't believe "Saturday is for the boys"
Didant ya say ya played golf at da Bog wit 'im on Saturday, hey?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 28, 2023, 06:15:30 AM
It is not a theory, it is a proclamation.
Look, I am glad that you are comfortable that your faith allows you to taken the written word in the Bible as absolute truth. I view Jesus' teachings as incredibly important and insightful, but also more metaphorically.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 28, 2023, 07:55:17 AM
Didant ya say ya played golf at da Bog wit 'im on Saturday, hey?
Jesus cheats at golf, so he's out of my foursome
The last straw for me was when he walked on the pond in order to play his shot rather than take a penalty drop after hitting his previous shot in the water.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 27, 2023, 06:29:09 PM
...and Paul and the others actually saw Christ come back to life.
Actually, Paul didn't
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 27, 2023, 09:51:12 PM
After five takes of this debate, I find much of the discussion interesting and I do hope that some of the esteemed faith leaders at Marquette are reading this. There are exceptional arguments on both sides of religion and many things I've heard for years.
As a person of faith, I admit I struggle with the literal concept of the Resurrection. The notion that Jesus died the awful death He did and then suddenly rose three days later, appearing only to a closed group of disciples, seems extremely far fetched. That's why I identify so much with St. Thomas. He's the patron saint of due diligence.
What I believe as a Catholic Christian is that the Resurrection is a metaphor for the oneness we attain with God on our own death. That's a concept that's hard to communicate in any generation, especially 2000 years ago. A metaphysical Resurrection becomes a "real" one because it's much easier to tell and far more convincing. We gain oneness with God because we accept the challenges God puts before us and handle them in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
For those of you who don't believe, I get that too! One of the most compelling conversations with my own father was a couple years before he died when we were travelling together. He was a CCD teacher and a champion of our faith and I finally had the courage to ask, "do you ever have trouble believing?" His answer was shocking: "of course I do." But he went on to explain the universe is too perfect to believe there is no God. He noted that God may not be what we think God is or should be, but we'll find out soon enough!
Good answer for an engineer!
I admire those whose faith is so strong they "know." Our own Cardinal George in Chicago, when he announced he was dying of bladder cancer, said he was "excited about the fact that he's about to meet God." I truly wish that I could feel the way the Cardinal did. But my own public views notwithstanding, I don't have THAT level of faith. Maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, you do the best you can and hope for growth as a person.
I feel very similar.
True faith should have some (a lot of?) doubt, IMO
My best friend from high school is a Jesuit and he says there are many days that he doesn't know if he believes that God exists. To me, this kind of humility is necessary for faith.
Quote from: Coleman on July 28, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
I feel very similar.
True faith should have some (a lot of?) doubt, IMO
My best friend from high school is a Jesuit and he says there are many days that he doesn't know if he believes that God exists. To me, this kind of humility is necessary for faith.
Yep. The best conversations I've had about this have been with pastors/priests.
The unassailable part of religious texts is that they are a compellation of short stories intended to provide a framework of morals/values. That framework is an efficient way to communicate culture through generations, to keep a people on the same page about right and wrong, even a world away.
As religion is entering its Fall/Winter in western nations, we don't have a new or better way to build community locally or communicate values globally. I think that's a big risk to the peoples of western nations, because something/someone will be able to move into that power vacuum and create division instead of bringing people together. I don't think religion is the answer, but I don't see what's next in a post-religious society.
Quote from: Coleman on July 28, 2023, 09:40:27 AM
Actually, Paul didn't
Actually, we don't know any of it. As my wonderful, pious, Christian, mechanical engineer nephew tells me, "Uncle, I love you. I believe. It is the most wonderful feeling to believe." As my wonderful, scientific, former atheist current humans aren't the be all end all, electrical engineering student son tells me, "Religion makes me laugh, it's so hypocritical, I am ready and waiting for someone to ask me about Bible stories. Oh, and, yeah, I super loved my senior spiritual Kairos retreat at my Jesuit HS." I cherish the time speaking with both of them about it all.
It can be both, and all. As a former Catholic who is confirmed and bastard child of a 30+ year old annulled marriage with a godfather who was expelled from the church for having a consensual, adult, gay relationship, I can see both sides.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on July 28, 2023, 10:06:46 AM
Actually, we don't know any of it. As my wonderful, pious, Christian, mechanical engineer nephew tells me, "Uncle, I love you. I believe. It is the most wonderful feeling to believe." As my wonderful, scientific, former atheist current humans aren't the be all end all, electrical engineering student tells me, "Religion makes me laugh, it's so hypocritical, I am ready and waiting for someone to ask me about Bible stories. Oh, and, yeah, I super loved my senior spiritual Kairos retreat at my Jesuit HS." I cherish the time speaking with both of them about it all.
It can be both, and all. As a former Catholic who is confirmed and bastard child of a 30+ year old annulled wedding with a godfather who was expelled from the church for having a consensual, adult, gay relationship, I can see both sides.
Agree, and that's why some say humans were given free will
Quote from: lawdog77 on July 28, 2023, 10:10:16 AM
Agree, and that's why some say humans were given free will
Hah, I was going to reference free will, love talking to the Jehovah's that come to my door and listening to and reading Sam Harris discuss it, too.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on July 28, 2023, 10:06:46 AM
Actually, we don't know any of it. As my wonderful, pious, Christian, mechanical engineer nephew tells me, "Uncle, I love you. I believe. It is the most wonderful feeling to believe." As my wonderful, scientific, former atheist current humans aren't the be all end all, electrical engineering student son tells me, "Religion makes me laugh, it's so hypocritical, I am ready and waiting for someone to ask me about Bible stories. Oh, and, yeah, I super loved my senior spiritual Kairos retreat at my Jesuit HS." I cherish the time speaking with both of them about it all.
It can be both, and all. As a former Catholic who is confirmed and bastard child of a 30+ year old annulled marriage with a godfather who was expelled from the church for having a consensual, adult, gay relationship, I can see both sides.
I don't disagree but my point was that even by his own accounts, Paul did not become a follower of Jesus until well after the resurrection.
Quote from: Coleman on July 28, 2023, 10:51:57 AM
I don't disagree but my point was that even by his own accounts, Paul did not become a follower of Jesus until well after the resurrection.
Totally understand, I just responded to you as the last the in back and forth of who definitively knows what.
Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity https://a.co/d/i85S51O (//http://://a.co/d/i85S51O)
This is a good read on how Paul shaped Christianity. (Not for the better, IMO). He also heavily influenced the Gospels, which I didn't know. So even the teachings of Jesus were filtered through Paul and his followers' lens.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 28, 2023, 12:10:37 PM
Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity https://a.co/d/i85S51O (//http://://a.co/d/i85S51O)
This is a good read on how Paul shaped Christianity. (Not for the better, IMO). He also heavily influenced the Gospels, which I didn't know. So even the teachings of Jesus were filtered through Paul and his followers' lens.
broken link
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 27, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Thousands of years of people not actually rising from the dead after three days.
Ah hem:
A worm has been revived after 46,000 years in the Siberian permafrost
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/28/world/worm-resurrected-frozen-siberian-permafrost-intl-scli-scn/index.html
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 28, 2023, 01:17:53 PM
Ah hem:
A worm has been revived after 46,000 years in the Siberian permafrost
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/28/world/worm-resurrected-frozen-siberian-permafrost-intl-scli-scn/index.html
I just found a new messiah.
46,001 years ago, the worm was a woman nagging her boyfriend, the sorcerer, about whether he would still love her if she was a worm.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 28, 2023, 01:17:53 PM
Ah hem:
A worm has been revived after 46,000 years in the Siberian permafrost
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/28/world/worm-resurrected-frozen-siberian-permafrost-intl-scli-scn/index.html
He's going to be very confused about his surroundings.
Before we write the obituary on organized religion, one should visit St. Clement Parish in Lincoln Park, Chicago. We're staying her for the summer in a "let's live in the city" test. So far, this first-time city living couple is having a blast.
But back on the ranch, St. Clement is the future of the Catholic Church. It's an incredibly engaged community with lots of the folks that we're not getting anymore. The parish was an incredible cross-section of youthful families, older Americans, singles and, most likely, gay and lesbian folks who don't talk about it in church.
The engagement began when two "greeters" welcomed everyone who walked up the steps and thanked us for coming. The priest was younger, energetic and his homily showed he was engaged with people in the community. He was heavily engaged as people came out of the Mass -- greeting and talking with everyone as the parish did coffee and pastry on its steps. The "Clement Commitment" includes 10 percent of the collection plate to social organization in its community.
The real secret is the engage people on their level and back into religion and to stand for what Jesus did. That's what these people have done and its an amazing comparison with our suburban parish that was really comparatively morbid.
It sounds great. On the other hand.....
https://news.yahoo.com/prayerful-consideration-kc-area-catholic-100800306.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Quote from: tower912 on July 30, 2023, 12:46:53 PM
It sounds great. On the other hand.....
https://news.yahoo.com/prayerful-consideration-kc-area-catholic-100800306.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Please let me know how that reflects the word of God!
Sad.
After having reread the entire story, what's particularly sad is that how few of the folks in that yo-yo's pews actually subscribe to every possible teaching of the Roman Catholic Church? I'm guessing very few.
Let's take the obvious, birth control! When I was young, the average Roman Catholic family had four or more children! The wagon trains of seven to 10 children were common. Betcha this moron of a priest has very few wagon trains in his parish! Catholics use birth control at the same rate as Protestants, ignoring church teaching in the process.
The guy is nuts and is a huge reason why many of the faithful are losing faith in the Church! We're all sinners, for heaven's sake, and the joy of our church is in forgiveness and letting God be God!
Agreed. I like your story better.
Quote from: tower912 on July 30, 2023, 12:46:53 PM
It sounds great. On the other hand.....
https://news.yahoo.com/prayerful-consideration-kc-area-catholic-100800306.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Rad Trads are insane.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 30, 2023, 03:08:18 PM
Rad Trads are insane.
Looks like that diocese has some cleaning up to do. If you don't can the radical priests, you've got yourself a radical religion.
Remember Jesus died for your sins, so if you don't sin he died for nothing.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 30, 2023, 12:39:05 PM
Before we write the obituary on organized religion, one should visit St. Clement Parish in Lincoln Park, Chicago. We're staying her for the summer in a "let's live in the city" test. So far, this first-time city living couple is having a blast.
But back on the ranch, St. Clement is the future of the Catholic Church. It's an incredibly engaged community with lots of the folks that we're not getting anymore. The parish was an incredible cross-section of youthful families, older Americans, singles and, most likely, gay and lesbian folks who don't talk about it in church.
The engagement began when two "greeters" welcomed everyone who walked up the steps and thanked us for coming. The priest was younger, energetic and his homily showed he was engaged with people in the community. He was heavily engaged as people came out of the Mass -- greeting and talking with everyone as the parish did coffee and pastry on its steps. The "Clement Commitment" includes 10 percent of the collection plate to social organization in its community.
The real secret is the engage people on their level and back into religion and to stand for what Jesus did. That's what these people have done and its an amazing comparison with our suburban parish that was really comparatively morbid.
I am happy that St. Clements is a successful parish. In terms of it being the future of The Church as a whole:
1. Where are they going to find the young, energetic priests to staff the rest of the parishes in the world?
2. How is The Church planning to atone for the thousands of lives the actions of their priests have destroyed to the satisfaction of many Catholics (like me) can't get over?
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 28, 2023, 07:18:56 AM
If the resurrection is real, Jesus died on a Friday and came back on Sunday. This means he basically sacrificed a weekend for our sins.
Must not have been during a Roman Lion League ("RLL") weekend!
The priest highlighted in the Yahoo / LC article matches the profile of what I have experienced at our parish. The middle aged priests are open to change, making the church a welcoming place. The younger generation is extremely militant in their views and incredibly close minded.
It's scary bc your parish is at the mercy of who the arch assigns you as pastor. We right now are lucky but I fear my days will be numbered.
There's a younger of church leaders under Pope Francis looking to undo his progressive works. I don't see how that helps.
It's concerning.
Quote from: The Lens on July 31, 2023, 12:26:45 PM
The priest highlighted in the Yahoo / LC article matches the profile of what I have experienced at our parish. The middle aged priests are open to change, making the church a welcoming place. The younger generation is extremely militant in their views and incredibly close minded.
It's scary bc your parish is at the mercy of who the arch assigns you as pastor. We right now are lucky but I fear my days will be numbered.
There's a younger of church leaders under Pope Francis looking to undo his progressive works. I don't see how that helps.
It's concerning.
Ben.
At our former parish, the new-ish priest is a militant rad trad. The bishop supports him.
Both went to school at Marquette.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 30, 2023, 12:39:05 PM
Before we write the obituary on organized religion, one should visit St. Clement Parish in Lincoln Park, Chicago. We're staying her for the summer in a "let's live in the city" test. So far, this first-time city living couple is having a blast.
But back on the ranch, St. Clement is the future of the Catholic Church. It's an incredibly engaged community with lots of the folks that we're not getting anymore. The parish was an incredible cross-section of youthful families, older Americans, singles and, most likely, gay and lesbian folks who don't talk about it in church.
The engagement began when two "greeters" welcomed everyone who walked up the steps and thanked us for coming. The priest was younger, energetic and his homily showed he was engaged with people in the community. He was heavily engaged as people came out of the Mass -- greeting and talking with everyone as the parish did coffee and pastry on its steps. The "Clement Commitment" includes 10 percent of the collection plate to social organization in its community.
The real secret is the engage people on their level and back into religion and to stand for what Jesus did. That's what these people have done and its an amazing comparison with our suburban parish that was really comparatively morbid.
I lived in Chicago for 12 years and St Clement is a fantastic parish.
Unfortunately, in my experience, St Clement is the exception, not the rule, in the Catholic Church.
Why didn't the Catholic Church think of this defense?
https://apnews.com/article/mormon-sex-abuse-de446ad8212b6ca50ecbaaf222c35e7e
An Arizona judge has dismissed a high-profile child sexual abuse lawsuit against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ruling that church officials who knew that a church member was sexually abusing his daughter had no duty to report the abuse to police or social service agencies because the information was received during a spiritual confession.