https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2023/06/13/arizona-water-future-brighter-headlines-suggest/70308482007/
excellent article on how arizona has approached it's water issues over the past decades with smart planning for the future. i believe many in the media try to use california's problems as a foundation for the whole southwestern region. that can be proven to be very inaccurate and/or disingenuous. they have not instituted near the water management programs that arizona has. for example, they have a very limited water infrastructure in place and send more water back into the pacific ocean than phoenix uses annually. most of the articles you see are from sources either unfamiliar with arizona water management policies or they have "other" presumed agendas to fulfill.
some highlights to take note of:
they rely less on the colorado river than many assumed. although some areas of the state face scarcities, the metro phoenix region and the state has 5 times more water stored than it uses.
they have NEVER mandated restrictions because they haven't needed to
It has stockpiled 13.2 million acre-feet of water in reservoirs and underground, with 7.1 million acre-feet of that total stored in Greater Phoenix.
they give it's residents rebates for installing smart irrigation systems and closely monitor all water use. for example, if they notice irregular spikes in residential water usage, they are on that immediately
their water usage is approximately the same today as it was back in the 1950's despite it's population being 7 times larger due to increased efficiency and water management programs in place
is the water shortage issue real? yes, absolutely. but this has motivated some areas to become more innovative for the future as we can and should for many of our resources
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/in-drought-stricken-arizona-fresh-scrutiny-of-saudi-arabia-owned-farms-water-use
Gross. More Saudi crap.
Denying certificates needed to build new homes because of shortage
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/arizona-restricts-phoenix-home-construction-amid-water-shortage-2023-06-02/#:~:text=The%20state's%20recently%20concluded%20analysis,Supply%2C%20which%20enable%20home%20construction. (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/arizona-restricts-phoenix-home-construction-amid-water-shortage-2023-06-02/#:~:text=The%20state's%20recently%20concluded%20analysis,Supply%2C%20which%20enable%20home%20construction.)
To be fair, those limits are for housing that accesses groundwater directly and not those who are in areas that are supplied via the Colorado and other rivers.
I think the major issue with that article is that it assumes that the amount of water from the Colorado will be constant and sustainable over time. I don't believe it is however.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 16, 2023, 08:00:31 AM
To be fair, those limits are for housing that accesses groundwater directly and not those who are in areas that are supplied via the Colorado and other rivers.
I think the major issue with that article is that it assumes that the amount of water from the Colorado will be constant and sustainable over time. I don't believe it is however.
Well, since the Colorado River has shrunk 20% in the last 20 years, those who don't think Arizona has a major water problem have their head in the sand (pun intended)
Quote from: lawdog77 on June 16, 2023, 08:35:54 AM
Well, since the Colorado River has shrunk 20% in the last 20 years, those who don't think Arizona has a major water problem have their head in the sand (pun intended)
That's exactly what I mean. I also am not sure about how much stock I am going to put in an opinion written by someone in the real estate industry.
The whole thing is fascinating. I've done a lot of business with financial institutions in the west whose customers worry about water every day. It's just something that, to someone who lived in Chicago, the St. Croix Headwaters of NW Wisconsin, the Cumberland Valley of Tennessee, along the Mississippi River and in Florida has a hard time comprehending. But it clearly is real and problematic.
At some point, there are three issues we as a nation have to resolve:
1) Recycled Water -- We know how to recycle water from a treatment plant. Instead of dumping it into the Pacific Ocean, we pipe it over to a water processing facility and reprocess it for human consumption. That's how we keep people alive on the International Space Station. Orange County, CA is doing that now and has cut use of the Colorado River and other aquifers dramatically. It was an issue we used to speak about in a social psychology class back at MU in the 1970s but with strong engineering and a commitment to conservation, it can be done. Note, to some degree, New Orleans drinks St. Paul's, Chicago's, St. Louis' and Memphis' recycled water.
2) Desalinization -- If we poured half as much research and federal support for desalinization as we do for crazy-ass energy projects (think Solyndra, Obama fans), most folks on the west coast would be drinking desalinized water. There are very significant technical hurdles still to overcome but this is something that could solve an awful lot of problems. It really could!
3) Water as a Resource -- Most of the major cities of the Midwest have more water than they could every use. Why not treat it the way we treat Texas oil, Wyoming coal or ag products from around the country. If all else fails, move it west (with a parallel pipe that makes it all come back). I know there are international treaties, but it seems senseless not to use uit.
Regarding #1, a number of places use recycled water for outdoor and industrial watering purposes. San Antonio uses it to provide water for the Riverwalk.
https://www.npr.org/2011/10/01/140937267/recycled-water-quenches-san-antonios-thirst
Regarding #3, water can't be moved out of the Great Lakes basin per treaty with Canada. I think this would be way less popular than your other two ideas.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 16, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
3) Water as a Resource -- Most of the major cities of the Midwest have more water than they could every use. Why not treat it the way we treat Texas oil, Wyoming coal or ag products from around the country. If all else fails, move it west (with a parallel pipe that makes it all come back). I know there are international treaties, but it seems senseless not to use uit.
I think National Geographic has a recent write-up related to this. A pipeline was proposed to send water from the Mississippi in Louisiana out west to reduce flooding in Louisiana and help the west with water. It's mostly been nixed as the main issue is by doing this you create lots of other different problems not to mention the cost would be astronomical. Other things can be done less costly.
I think agriculture needs to be part of the conversation too. There are certain crops that just require too much water to be environmentally responsible at the rate we currently cultivate them. I remember reading that Alfalfa accounts for around 66% of the water use in Utah but is worth less than 1% of the state's GDP. Now there are a ton of benefits to the use of alfalfa, it's a universal feed for livestock, it's great for soil health, and it's many famers' livelihoods...but with the current situation in the southwest I'm not sure it's environmentally responsible to dedicate that much water it. I have no where near the expertise to know if there are alternatives that require less water.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 16, 2023, 11:05:16 AM
I think National Geographic has a recent write-up related to this. A pipeline was proposed to send water from the Mississippi in Louisiana out west to reduce flooding in Louisiana and help the west with water. It's mostly been nixed as the main issue is by doing this you create lots of other different problems not to mention the cost would be astronomical. Other things can be done less costly.
One of the problems would be building enough pipe to make a difference out west.
Years ago, when Ms. Dgies and I lived in DuPage County, the DuPage County Water Commission built a pipeline from Chicago to DuPage County to bring Lake Michigan water into a part of DuPage County that had been living on well water (aka, most of it!). Even for that, the cost was astronomical. That pipe was built for a county of about 700,000 and it only went about 30 miles. You'd need the Roman aqueducts to pipe water to Phoenix or Los Angeles -- many of them!
Engineering wise, it is possible. Practically, it's tough. And it will take years!
regarding the colorado river and arizona water-only 36% of Az water comes from colorado river.
i believe what the article is trying to state among many things is that Az has quite effectively benn managing their water quite well compared to say california. they have had a number of processes in order for years where california has been kicking the can down the road because it isn't an immediate political win. politicians need "stuff" they can point to here and now. this has put more pressure on the surrounding states
About 75% of Arizona's water usage comes from agriculture. 80% of California water usage is on agriculture. Seems like it's time to put a few farmers out of business and get the Southwest back on track.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 16, 2023, 06:44:43 PM
About 75% of Arizona's water usage comes from agriculture. 80% of California water usage is on agriculture. Seems like it's time to put a few farmers out of business and get the Southwest back on track.
Arizona has a lot of idiots living there that don't think climate change is real. Don't move there. They'll be out of water a LOT faster than they think. Honestly, I'd sell it to Mexico. If I need to see a giant hole in the earth, I'll just read scoop
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 17, 2023, 06:18:12 AM
Arizona has a lot of idiots living there that don't think climate change is real. Don't move there. They'll be out of water a LOT faster than they think. Honestly, I'd sell it to Mexico. If I need to see a giant hole in the earth, I'll just read scoop
if you were to come down to Az, now that would be a waste of water.
climate changes down there every day, every season. love the changes in climate down there more than up here. some days can even be the epicenter of global warming. as a matter of fact it's been well into the hundreds. as a matter of fact, it's been so warm, the glaciers have all melted
Thank goodness for the Great Lakes compact. So many people out there are so condescending about people fleeing Midwest cities, how much better things are than they are here, blah blah blah, poaching industries and other jobs. They can't have my water too.
So there.
If only Mr. Parsons had gotten his way, this would already be solved:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance
Of course, Canada would have started a war over it, as they didn't really want the US to flood 1/3 of their country...
Yeah that's a pretty dumb idea.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on June 17, 2023, 09:42:27 AM
Thank goodness for the Great Lakes compact. So many people out there are so condescending about people fleeing Midwest cities, how much better things are than they are here, blah blah blah, poaching industries and other jobs. They can't have my water too.
So there.
Suppose Texas and Louisiana said the same thing about their energy? Or Wyoming?
Or Iowa said the same thing about its grain and pork?
Sounds like a protectionist!
Embridge pipeline will rupture make it a moot point.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on June 17, 2023, 10:02:34 AM
If only Mr. Parsons had gotten his way, this would already be solved:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance
Of course, Canada would have started a war over it, as they didn't really want the US to flood 1/3 of their country...
Sounds like a Rico suggestion.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 17, 2023, 08:23:58 AM
if you were to come down to Az, now that would be a waste of water.
climate changes down there every day, every season. love the changes in climate down there more than up here. some days can even be the epicenter of global warming. as a matter of fact it's been well into the hundreds. as a matter of fact, it's been so warm, the glaciers have all melted
There isn't a single good reason to visit Arizona
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 17, 2023, 01:44:20 PM
There isn't a single good reason to visit Arizona
Chino Banditos is worth the trip
https://g.co/kgs/rbe8NH
Outlaw khakis?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 17, 2023, 01:44:20 PM
There isn't a single good reason to visit Arizona
GOLF GOLF & GOLF there's 3 right there
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 17, 2023, 01:44:20 PM
There isn't a single good reason to visit Arizona
The Sonora Desert Museum outside Tuscon is absolutely incredible and fascinating.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 17, 2023, 01:44:20 PM
There isn't a single good reason to visit Arizona
Nerd alert
Quote from: Warriors4ever on June 17, 2023, 09:42:27 AM
Thank goodness for the Great Lakes compact. So many people out there are so condescending about people fleeing Midwest cities, how much better things are than they are here, blah blah blah, poaching industries and other jobs. They can't have my water too.
So there.
Many of my MU class mates that lived in the Milwaukee area had central water softeners in their homes because the water was pretty hard. Of course that was nearly 60 years ago.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 17, 2023, 05:58:31 PM
GOLF GOLF & GOLF there's 3 right there
The golf in Arizona is garbage
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 17, 2023, 10:57:43 AM
Yeah that's a pretty dumb idea.
Hah, it was a creative idea, and certainly a smarter one than a "Pipe from the Mississippi", but also bad in many ways.
Unless our only goal is to sustain high populations in the US SW -- which depending on who you ask might be our only goal.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on June 18, 2023, 06:06:57 AM
Many of my MU class mates that lived in the Milwaukee area had central water softeners in their homes because the water was pretty hard. Of course that was nearly 60 years ago.
That's still pretty much the case.
Imagine having to replace all the grass on your course twice a year just to keep up with the weather extremes. Absolutely wild
Quote from: panda on June 18, 2023, 08:18:55 AM
Where have you played in az ?
TPC Scottsdale, Talking Stick (best courses out there), The Boulders, Dinosaur Mountain, Grayhawk, Lookout Mountain, Camelback, Dove Mountain, Gold Canyon.
Haven't played We-Ko-Pa yet. Crenshaw/Coore designs are usually world class
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 18, 2023, 08:48:31 AM
Imagine having to replace all the grass on your course twice a year just to keep up with the weather extremes. Absolutely wild
if you are referring to Az golf courses, they don't necessarily replace the grass, they over seed.
they also have had very effective management programs in place since the 1980's
https://wrrc.arizona.edu/awr/sp09/golf
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 18, 2023, 08:56:30 AM
TPC Scottsdale, Talking Stick (best courses out there), The Boulders, Dinosaur Mountain, Grayhawk, Lookout Mountain, Camelback, Dove Mountain, Gold Canyon.
Haven't played We-Ko-Pa yet. Crenshaw/Coore designs are usually world class
the talking stick courses are just ok
the verrado founders and victory courses, quintero, superstition mountain, wickenburg ranch, laughlin ranch(bullhead city), ocotillo, lookout mountain (back 9) wigwam gold, estrella mountain, emerald canyon(parker) cerbat cliffs(kingman)...
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 18, 2023, 09:18:39 AM
the talking stick courses are just ok
the verrado founders and victory courses, quintero, superstition mountain, wickenburg ranch, laughlin ranch(bullhead city), ocotillo, lookout mountain (back 9) wigwam gold, estrella mountain, emerald canyon(parker) cerbat cliffs(kingman)...
They should all be closed to conserve water
Quote from: RJax55 on June 18, 2023, 11:06:41 AM
Lol. Florida golf is worse.
I would listen to that argument
Quote from: tower912 on June 17, 2023, 11:12:30 AM
Embridge pipeline will rupture make it a moot point.
You think?
It hasn't yet and it's been there since the 1950s.
Perhaps if the Governor of Michigan would stop fighting a tunnel under the straits at Sault Ste. Marie, the problem would be solved.
The implications of that closing that pipeline are severe in Southern Ontario. They're also severe in Superior, WI, where Embridge has major operations, including a refinery. My Dad, an environmental engineer and then-head of the Douglas County (WI) Development Corporation, fought to keep the refining operations open. They did but it would be killed (and hundreds of high paying jobs lost) if Embridge were terminated.
By the way, closing a pipeline means shipping more crude oil by tanker cars on trains. That's a separate risk all its own.
ahhh yes, global warming at it's best...
https://abcnews.go.com/US/photos-show-dramatic-difference-water-levels-lake-oroville/story?id=100198914
remember when the great lakes water levels were perilously low 1999-2014? yup, global warming alarmists were celebrating, algore was reaping $$ and then...poof...the great lakes water levels are above average and rising-oh no, party's over until...the next hurricane and/or wild fire
https://www.wkar.org/wkar-news/2023-05-11/great-lakes-water-levels-up-from-historical-average
I mean it is growing objectively warmer. I don't think there is much dispute about that.
What that means for year to year variations on the Great Lakes, I have no idea.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 18, 2023, 12:49:07 PM
You think?
It hasn't yet and it's been there since the 1950s.
Perhaps if the Governor of Michigan would stop fighting a tunnel under the straits at Sault Ste. Marie, the problem would be solved.
The implications of that closing that pipeline are severe in Southern Ontario. They're also severe in Superior, WI, where Embridge has major operations, including a refinery. My Dad, an environmental engineer and then-head of the Douglas County (WI) Development Corporation, fought to keep the refining operations open. They did but it would be killed (and hundreds of high paying jobs lost) if Embridge were terminated.
By the way, closing a pipeline means shipping more crude oil by tanker cars on trains. That's a separate risk all its own.
Better harangue the Wisconsin judge who sided with a local tribe.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 21, 2023, 05:06:11 AM
I mean it is growing objectively warmer. I don't think there is much dispute about that.
What that means for year to year variations on the Great Lakes, I have no idea.
well duh, we'll experience some global warming for the next few months, then gradually back to cooler weather september thru february/march
great lakes water supply as with many others are going to fluctuate just as they have over the past, ohhh, few centuries even before man...gasp!!
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 21, 2023, 07:51:16 AM
well duh, we'll experience some global warming for the next few months, then gradually back to cooler weather september thru february/march
::)
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 21, 2023, 07:51:16 AM
great lakes water supply as with many others are going to fluctuate just as they have over the past, ohhh, few centuries even before man...gasp!!
Homo sapiens have been around for longer than the Great Lakes.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 21, 2023, 07:51:16 AM
well duh, we'll experience some global warming for the next few months, then gradually back to cooler weather september thru february/march
great lakes water supply as with many others are going to fluctuate just as they have over the past, ohhh, few centuries even before man...gasp!!
I didn't think there were still people that confused climate change with weather. Are you a flat earther too?
This is great it's like a bit
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 21, 2023, 08:16:55 AM
I didn't think there were still people that confused climate change with weather. Are you a flat earther too?
This is great it's like a bit
It's art, really
Ivermectin will reverse climate change.
Quote from: tower912 on June 21, 2023, 06:01:18 AM
Better harangue the Wisconsin judge who sided with a local tribe.
I agree and am betting the matter is reversed on appeal.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 21, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
I agree and am betting the matter is reversed on appeal.
Maybe. Two of the right leaning justices on the court (Kavanaugh and Gorsuch) are also pretty protective of sovereign tribal rights. And this case seems pretty straight-forward.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on June 21, 2023, 07:51:16 AM
well duh, we'll experience some global warming for the next few months, then gradually back to cooler weather september thru february/march
great lakes water supply as with many others are going to fluctuate just as they have over the past, ohhh, few centuries even before man...gasp!!
"I got mine, f u"
https://www.insider.com/arizona-heatwave-saguaro-cactus-topple-over-die-2023-7?amp
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12351623/amp/Arizona-heatwave-high-temperature-cactus.html