Go to 6 fouls. And/or (would be even better) eliminate the charge where a player isn't even making a play, just sliding under a player going up for a shot. Tuning in to see a bunch of guys who never see the court blow a lead sucks.
You would like to go to the old Big East rule?
I don't think charges on shot attempts should be personal fouls.
No. 5 is plenty for 40 minutes.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 19, 2022, 10:31:56 PM
No. 5 is plenty for 40 minutes.
Not the way the college game is officiated.
Quote from: panda on March 19, 2022, 10:51:43 PM
Not the way the college game is officiated.
Exactly. If it was reffed consistently then sure. But it's reffed completely differently from night to night.
Quote from: CountryRoads on March 19, 2022, 10:31:42 PM
I don't think charges on shot attempts should be personal fouls.
YES
Quote from: wadesworld on March 19, 2022, 10:52:56 PM
Exactly. If it was reffed consistently then sure. But it's reffed completely differently from night to night.Half to Half
FIFY
Watching guys take charges as a defensive strategy and refs excitedly call charges is the lamest development in the history of the sport
Quote from: wadesworld on March 19, 2022, 10:52:56 PM
Exactly. If it was reffed consistently then sure. But it's reffed completely differently from night to night.
That's the NCAA's fault. D1 is too big, reffing is a part time job where the crews are overstressed from travel and overworked trying to get as many games as they can. This tournament generates billion with a b dollars and the refs get like $1,000 per game this weekend.
If they want professional refs, make them professionals. Take care of them and train them appropriately. The problem isn't number of fouls or quality of officials, it's the system the officials are put in.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 19, 2022, 11:30:02 PM
That's the NCAA's fault. D1 is too big, reffing is a part time job where the crews are overstressed from travel and overworked trying to get as many games as they can. This tournament generates billion with a b dollars and the refs get like $1,000 per game this weekend.
Great points Brew. $1000 a game is embarrassing.
If they want professional refs, make them professionals. Take care of them and train them appropriately. The problem isn't number of fouls or quality of officials, it's the system the officials are put in.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 19, 2022, 11:30:02 PM
That's the NCAA's fault. D1 is too big, reffing is a part time job where the crews are overstressed from travel and overworked trying to get as many games as they can. This tournament generates billion with a b dollars and the refs get like $1,000 per game this weekend.
If they want professional refs, make them professionals. Take care of them and train them appropriately. The problem isn't number of fouls or quality of officials, it's the system the officials are put in.
Officials at this level make $2000 per game times 80 to 100 games, plus travel. $160,000 to $200,000. That's professional. What's needed is consistent grading not the old boy network as it exists.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 19, 2022, 11:43:06 PM
Officials at this level make $2000 per game times 80 to 100 games, plus travel. $160,000 to $200,000. That's professional. What's needed is consistent grading not the old boy network as it exists.
80-100? Okay. I didn't realize that.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 19, 2022, 11:43:06 PM
Officials at this level make $2000 per game times 80 to 100 games, plus travel. $160,000 to $200,000. That's professional. What's needed is consistent grading not the old boy network as it exists.
Yep they make very, very good money. All while also holding down another "traditional" job. But also to the point, they are independent contractors. They follow conference and ncaa edicts but are still their own bosses.
We can talk about improving officiating quality or taking away/changing certain calls (charge) but far and away the easiest way would be to add a sixth foul. That changes nothing about the competition and turns it back into a players game, instead of the ref show it has turned into.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 19, 2022, 10:31:56 PM
No. 5 is plenty for 40 minutes.
Agree on 5 is plenty
for forty minutes. Your thoughts on allowing a sixth foul for OT?
I would like to see moving screens and charging fouls result just in a TO. Also, I hate the sliding in front of a driving player to draw a charge, but how to tighten the ruling on a charge vs. a block in favor of the driving player? That's a tough one.
Edit: Maybe just changing the charging call to a simple TO without a foul would be enough to alter the risk/reward of blocking. Add in making the blocking call a two shot foul would help as well.
go to 6 fouls and the officials will call 20% more fouls and make the game 20% worse than it already is.
Block/Charge is easy. Advantage to the offense unless the defender has been there for at least a week.
Officials must be professional and have better training and a grading system including the players and coaches after each game. If coaches get fired after bad seasons, so should officials. The best leagues should cultivate their own officials and the top leagues can pay more to get the best ones. When they get bad ratings, they get relegated to the horizon league.
At the end of each season do a fan survey. Any official with name recognition gets fired. We only know the names of the bad ones.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 20, 2022, 08:08:52 AM
Block/Charge is easy. Advantage to the offense unless the defender has been there for at least a week.
This is 100% the fix. Make it a block 80% of the time and the strategy stops.
EDIT: Copied the wrong post initially.
Quote from: WarriorFan on March 20, 2022, 09:15:53 AM
go to 6 fouls and the officials will call 20% more fouls and make the game 20% worse than it already is.
Block/Charge is easy. Advantage to the offense unless the defender has been there for at least a week.
Officials must be professional and have better training and a grading system including the players and coaches after each game. If coaches get fired after bad seasons, so should officials. The best leagues should cultivate their own officials and the top leagues can pay more to get the best ones. When they get bad ratings, they get relegated to the horizon league.
At the end of each season do a fan survey. Any official with name recognition gets fired. We only know the names of the bad ones.
How'd you crunch the numbers on that one ?
Quote from: panda on March 20, 2022, 09:30:54 AM
How'd you crunch the numbers on that one ?
The Big East experimented with 6 fouls for conference games in 91-92 and it was awful. Much more physical play, more whistles and made the game worse to watch, and they eliminated the next season. 1 foul per 8 game minutes to foul out is what they do in the NBA and it makes sense for college, too. I hate charge calls and I would be all four anything to cut back on those, maybe moving that semi-circle out further or just always calling it a block to stop it altogether.
I only played through high school , and I remember either my junior or senior year in high school 78-79 we started practicing drawing charges and I remember thinking then "What kind of chicken #%&@ is this?" Felt like cheating then. Challenge the shot at the rim, much more fun way to play and to watch.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 20, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
The Big East experimented with 6 fouls for conference games in 91-92 and it was awful. Much more physical play, more whistles and made the game worse to watch, and they eliminated the next season. 1 foul per 8 game minutes to foul out is what they do in the NBA and it makes sense for college, too. I hate charge calls and I would be all four anything to cut back on those, maybe moving that semi-circle out further or just always calling it a block to stop it altogether.
I only played through high school , and I remember either my junior or senior year in high school 78-79 we started practicing drawing charges and I remember thinking then "What kind of chicken #%&@ is this?" Felt like cheating then. Challenge the shot at the rim, much more fun way to play and to watch.
Jay Bilas would agree with this. He loves to talk endlessly in great detail not only about ref calls that he believes are erroneous, but in at least one game he must have ranted about sliding in front of a driving player at least four times. He kept saying that the rules
had to be changed. Hopefully, the NCAA took notes and will bring in Bilas as a consultant.
OK, I have had my fun with God's Gift from Heaven Jay Bilas. His point is legit. It is really bad for the game. I hope it will eventually be addressed by the NCAA and action is taken to make this BS less of a factor.
You can't eliminate the charge call altogether. The number of out of control drives to the basket will increase without them and the games will get even harder to watch. There has to be a disincentive to that and the charge call, as frustrating as it can be, is it.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on March 20, 2022, 10:05:04 AM
You can't eliminate the charge call altogether. The number of out of control drives to the basket will increase without them and the games will get even harder to watch. There has to be a disincentive to that and the charge call, as frustrating as it can be, is it.
Fair point. Honest question- what disincentive do you suggest? I think losing possession is enough. Do you agree/disagree?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on March 20, 2022, 10:05:04 AM
You can't eliminate the charge call altogether. The number of out of control drives to the basket will increase without them and the games will get even harder to watch. There has to be a disincentive to that and the charge call, as frustrating as it can be, is it.
Would it get harder to watch though? There would still be offensive fouls called but not for secondary defenders who slide underneath.
If you look at the contrast between the rugby that was being played by Baylor yesterday, vs the fouls called on charges to the rim it's pretty clear something should be done. I don't think it should be that difficult to make a no call on flops as opposed to a guy barreling over some one on the way to the rim. And if a guy 6 feet, 170 "charges" into a guy 260 lbs and the defender looks like they've been shot, maybe a charge isn't the right call.
But obviously this continues to be difficult for the zebras so the question is how do you change it for the better? My take is if it's not egregious, or if it's questionable at all whether it's a block or a charge, swallow the whistle. Stop making calls when guys are clearly flopping or it's not conceivable the contact would result in a player acting like a TV wrestler. The other option is that a non-egregious offensive foul results in a turnover only and not a personal foul.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 20, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
The Big East experimented with 6 fouls for conference games in 91-92 and it was awful. Much more physical play, more whistles and made the game worse to watch, and they eliminated the next season. 1 foul per 8 game minutes to foul out is what they do in the NBA and it makes sense for college, too. I hate charge calls and I would be all four anything to cut back on those, maybe moving that semi-circle out further or just always calling it a block to stop it altogether.
I only played through high school , and I remember either my junior or senior year in high school 78-79 we started practicing drawing charges and I remember thinking then "What kind of chicken #%&@ is this?" Felt like cheating then. Challenge the shot at the rim, much more fun way to play and to watch.
Why would adding a foul change the way the game is officiated ?
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 20, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
The Big East experimented with 6 fouls for conference games in 91-92 and it was awful. Much more physical play, more whistles and made the game worse to watch, and they eliminated the next season. 1 foul per 8 game minutes to foul out is what they do in the NBA and it makes sense for college, too. I hate charge calls and I would be all four anything to cut back on those, maybe moving that semi-circle out further or just always calling it a block to stop it altogether.
I only played through high school , and I remember either my junior or senior year in high school 78-79 we started practicing drawing charges and I remember thinking then "What kind of chicken #%&@ is this?" Felt like cheating then. Challenge the shot at the rim, much more fun way to play and to watch.
Well the big difference versus 91-92 is the shot clock has added a lot more possessions. Gone are the 4 corner stalls, sitting in a zone. Add a sixth is my vote but keep the FT team bonus penalties.
Quote from: Clarissa on March 20, 2022, 10:23:20 AM
Would it get harder to watch though? There would still be offensive fouls called but not for secondary defenders who slide underneath.
I guess that's a personal opinion as to whether it would make the game less enjoyable. To me, yes it would.
Quote from: MuggsyB on March 20, 2022, 10:38:29 AM
If you look at the contrast between the rugby that was being played by Baylor yesterday, vs the fouls called on charges to the rim it's pretty clear something should be done. I don't think it should be that difficult to make a no call on flops as opposed to a guy barreling over some one on the way to the rim. And if a guy 6 feet, 170 "charges" into a guy 260 lbs and the defender looks like they've been shot, maybe a charge isn't the right call.
But obviously this continues to be difficult for the zebras so the question is how do you change it for the better? My take is if it's not egregious, or if it's questionable at all whether it's a block or a charge, swallow the whistle. Stop making calls when guys are clearly flopping or it's not conceivable the contact would result in a player acting like a TV wrestler. The other option is that a non-egregious offensive foul results in a turnover only and not a personal foul.
I see where you are trying to go with this Muggsy, but I disagree about leaving so much up to the discretion of the refs. The fewer variables, the better. You opinion of my suggestion of treating a charge like traveling-no foul, just loss of possession- and two FTs for a blocking foul? After all, a sliding block is a deliberate foul. Inadvertent hands on a shooter's arm are two shot fouls, so I think a block in front of a driving player deserves two FTs.
Calling a charge when an offensive player has given up his dribble, taken a step, going full speed at the basket and the defensive player still sliding into a spot is stupid and dangerous. Thats should be a blocking call every time. Call it that way so when teams start giving up and ones consistently, that practice will stop. Over half of these charging calls are crap. Offensive player is being punished. Call it the right way, keep the 5 fouls and call it a blocking foul.
Quote from: panda on March 20, 2022, 11:43:07 AM
Why would adding a foul change the way the game is officiated ?
It shouldn't, but with an extra foul players were more physical.
Quote from: Big Papi on March 20, 2022, 01:55:10 PM
Calling a charge when an offensive player has given up his dribble, taken a step, going full speed at the basket and the defensive player still sliding into a spot is stupid and dangerous. Thats should be a blocking call every time. Call it that way so when teams start giving up and ones consistently, that practice will stop. Over half of these charging calls are crap. Offensive player is being punished. Call it the right way, keep the 5 fouls and call it a blocking foul.
+100
We have a winner.
Quote from: CountryRoads on March 19, 2022, 10:31:42 PM
I don't think charges on shot attempts should be personal fouls.
I thought this way for a long time. Sometimes charges are obvious, but other times it is a judgement call. Losing the ball and maybe even a basket is a big enough penalty. It should just be a turnover. They also need to get rid of the flop warning. I never seen two flop warnings given, but I think getting a technical for two flop warnings on a team for what is a judgement call is too big of a penalty. I think it hurt Villanova's defense the last game, when they got the first flop warning. I thought the Villanova defender took a pretty good shot to the chest and the player should not have gotten a flop warning.
Quote from: CountryRoads on March 19, 2022, 10:31:42 PM
I don't think charges on shot attempts should be personal fouls.
So you can run anyone over, ok
Quote from: Newsdreams on March 22, 2022, 08:46:51 PM
So you can run anyone over, ok
The college game would be so much better off if they stopped calling charges when help defenders slide in.
If the offensive player lowers a shoulder or pushes off while driving, still a charge. But those other plays are dangerous and refs can't call them correctly.
I am a big fan of the system as it exists with 5 fouls. Adds a lot of strategy to the game when a key player fouls out or had to sit on the bench for a long period of time .
Quote from: Newsdreams on March 22, 2022, 08:46:51 PM
So you can run anyone over, ok
Not making them personal fouls doesn't mean they don't have consequence. Losing possession and waiving off the shot is still a deterrent.
I'm also not a fan of the sliding in. It becomes such a judgment call and you can have guys who take off early and end up with a foul and change of possession when the defender wasn't even in position as the offensive player left the floor. In terms of individual call types that need to be addressed, the block/charge is definitely the biggest one.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 23, 2022, 08:03:10 AM
Not making them personal fouls doesn't mean they don't have consequence. Losing possession and waiving off the shot is still a deterrent.
I'm also not a fan of the sliding in. It becomes such a judgment call and you can have guys who take off early and end up with a foul and change of possession when the defender wasn't even in position as the offensive player left the floor. In terms of individual call types that need to be addressed, the block/charge is definitely the biggest one.
Agree completely regarding loss of possession (and waiving of made basket) as a sufficient penalty for charging without adding a foul to the mix. Since it is already a "judgement call", perhaps the refs should be allowed to determine if the driving player had enough room to stop. That may be about an arm's length. There already are rules/judgements as to whether or not a defender allowed a shooter both enough space to shoot and also come down after his shot.
Getting back to the title of the thread: if the charging rules changed (and maybe illegal screens penalized with just loss of possession and not being a foul-just like traveling) I think I will walk back my suggestion of a 6th foul being allowed in OT.
They should also have central scheduling for the officials. Goodman talked about this last night on Field of 68 After Dark. Refs will work 2-3 games in a row in different parts of the country, and typically drive between games to save money on travel. There should be central scheduling that has guys working games in a centralized areas and if they move from northeast to midwest to south, set up a week or two in that area before they move on, and make sure their travel is well-coordinated, not just driving between spots. Here are a few examples:
Roger Ayers- Feb 12: FSU at UNC in Chapel Hill, NC
- Feb 13: Maryland at Purdue in West Lafayette, IN
- Feb 14: Duquesne at Davidson in Davidson, NC
- Feb 15: Butler at DePaul in Chicago, IL
- Feb 16: Miami at Louisville in Louisville, KY
- Feb 17: Minnesota at Penn State in University Park, PA
Bert Smith- Jan 12: Villanova at Xavier in Cincinnati, OH
- Jan 13: Butler at Georgetown in Washington, DC
- Jan 14: Davidson at Richmond in Richmond, VA
- Jan 15: NC State at Duke in Durham, NC
- Jan 16: Cincinnati at Wichita St in Wichita, KS
- Jan 17: Notre Dame at Howard in Washington, DC
- Jan 18: Kansas State at Texas in Austin, TX
- Jan 19: TCU at Oklahoma State in Stillwater, OK
- Jan 20: Old Dominion at Rice in Houston, TX
Doug Sirmons- Nov 24: Vanderbilt at Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh, PA
- Nov 25: Iona v Alabama in Kissimmee, FL
- Nov 26: Dayton v Kansas in Kissimmee, FL
- Nov 27: Coppin State at East Carolina in Greenville, NC
- Nov 28: Dayton v Belmont in Kissimmee, FL
- Nov 29: Mississippi Valley State at Vanderbilt in Nashville, TN
- Nov 30: Bellarmine at West Virginia in Morgantown, WV
- Dec 1: Florida at Oklahoma in Norman, OK
- Dec 2: Oral Roberts at TCU in Fort Worth, TX
- Dec 3: UTRGV at Texas in Austin, TX
- Dec 4: UAPB at Baylor in Waco, TX
- Dec 5: K-State at Wichita St in Wichita, KS
Six days, nine days, twelve days in a row doing games. Bouncing all over the country. The NCAA acts like a league when it comes to unifying March but eschews any responsibility when it comes to the rest of the year, letting leagues compete for officials and run guys ragged. They need a top-down approach that has better direction, better education and training, and better scheduling so guys aren't driving from state to state for a week or weeks straight. And when these guys have a day off, it's usually one day then back to another 4, 5, or 9 day stretch.
And these were just some snippets of the first few officials I looked at. You look at any of the officials people are familiar with, the James Breeding, Pat Driscoll, Jamie Luckey, John Gaffney, Doug Shows types and they will all have stretches like this. Limit the number of days in a row they can work, centralize where they are working so they stay within a 100-200 mile radius for longer stretches, and rotate them between regions so you don't have such grueling travel schedules. I know many of the officials do this to themselves, but they do it because the NCAA allows them to do it to themselves.
People are seriously considering making a charge just a turnover? How much do we want to handicap defense lol.
Quote from: #UnleashGreg on March 23, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
People are seriously considering making a charge just a turnover? How much do we want to handicap defense lol.
Significantly. Have you watched these tournament games?
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 23, 2022, 08:41:04 AM
They should also have central scheduling for the officials. Goodman talked about this last night on Field of 68 After Dark. Refs will work 2-3 games in a row in different parts of the country, and typically drive between games to save money on travel. There should be central scheduling that has guys working games in a centralized areas and if they move from northeast to midwest to south, set up a week or two in that area before they move on, and make sure their travel is well-coordinated, not just driving between spots. Here are a few examples:
Roger Ayers
- Feb 12: FSU at UNC in Chapel Hill, NC
- Feb 13: Maryland at Purdue in West Lafayette, IN
- Feb 14: Duquesne at Davidson in Davidson, NC
- Feb 15: Butler at DePaul in Chicago, IL
- Feb 16: Miami at Louisville in Louisville, KY
- Feb 17: Minnesota at Penn State in University Park, PA
Bert Smith
- Jan 12: Villanova at Xavier in Cincinnati, OH
- Jan 13: Butler at Georgetown in Washington, DC
- Jan 14: Davidson at Richmond in Richmond, VA
- Jan 15: NC State at Duke in Durham, NC
- Jan 16: Cincinnati at Wichita St in Wichita, KS
- Jan 17: Notre Dame at Howard in Washington, DC
- Jan 18: Kansas State at Texas in Austin, TX
- Jan 19: TCU at Oklahoma State in Stillwater, OK
- Jan 20: Old Dominion at Rice in Houston, TX
Doug Sirmons
- Nov 24: Vanderbilt at Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh, PA
- Nov 25: Iona v Alabama in Kissimmee, FL
- Nov 26: Dayton v Kansas in Kissimmee, FL
- Nov 27: Coppin State at East Carolina in Greenville, NC
- Nov 28: Dayton v Belmont in Kissimmee, FL
- Nov 29: Mississippi Valley State at Vanderbilt in Nashville, TN
- Nov 30: Bellarmine at West Virginia in Morgantown, WV
- Dec 1: Florida at Oklahoma in Norman, OK
- Dec 2: Oral Roberts at TCU in Fort Worth, TX
- Dec 3: UTRGV at Texas in Austin, TX
- Dec 4: UAPB at Baylor in Waco, TX
- Dec 5: K-State at Wichita St in Wichita, KS
Six days, nine days, twelve days in a row doing games. Bouncing all over the country. The NCAA acts like a league when it comes to unifying March but eschews any responsibility when it comes to the rest of the year, letting leagues compete for officials and run guys ragged. They need a top-down approach that has better direction, better education and training, and better scheduling so guys aren't driving from state to state for a week or weeks straight. And when these guys have a day off, it's usually one day then back to another 4, 5, or 9 day stretch.
And these were just some snippets of the first few officials I looked at. You look at any of the officials people are familiar with, the James Breeding, Pat Driscoll, Jamie Luckey, John Gaffney, Doug Shows types and they will all have stretches like this. Limit the number of days in a row they can work, centralize where they are working so they stay within a 100-200 mile radius for longer stretches, and rotate them between regions so you don't have such grueling travel schedules. I know many of the officials do this to themselves, but they do it because the NCAA allows them to do it to themselves.
I agree with you and like the idea in concept. But the current system costs the NCAA nothing so unless the conferences are going to be willing to forgo income from the tournament, it's just not going to happen.
Quote from: Clarissa on March 23, 2022, 01:35:09 PM
I agree with you and like the idea in concept. But the current system costs the NCAA nothing so unless the conferences are going to be willing to forgo income from the tournament, it's just not going to happen.
I think it's more important for the regular season. These guys are likely getting more rest during the tournament, it's the November-early March that needs to be regulated. It might even save money because as currently constructed, the refs get a set stipend for travel between games, which is why many of them drive (save money on airfare and pocket the difference). Look at the stretch for Ayers. Instead of driving from North Carolina to Indiana to North Carolina to Illinois to Kentucky to Pennsylvania in 6 days, you keep him roughly where he starts.
- Feb 12: FSU at UNC in Chapel Hill, NC (ACC)
- Feb 13: Mercer at UNCG in Greensboro, NC (SoCon)
- Feb 14: Duquesne at Davidson in Davidson, NC (A-10)
- Feb 15: Hofstra at Elon in Elon, NC (CAA)
- Feb 16: Winthrop at Gardner-Webb in Boiling Springs, NC (Big South)
- Feb 17: Troy at Appalachian State in Boone, NC (Sun Belt)
Now I know it wouldn't always be that clean, but that is 6 different conferences in 6 days without having to drive or fly across the country to ref the games. Then give him a day off and travel to the Midwest where he could do Notre Dame (ACC), Loyola Chicago (A-10), Marquette (Big East), Milwaukee (Horizon), UW-Madison (Big 10), and Northern Iowa (MVC) within a week without more than a 3 hour drive at any point. Then the Northeast, and so on.
As the schedules are pretty well set in September or October, they could start creating a matrix months in advance to reduce the workload, reduce the travel difficulties, and reduce the stress. For the leagues, you would also reduce the competition for officials because they would know who they are going to get. Then grade throughout the year based on set criteria and use those grades to dictate who refs in the NCAAs, NIT, and who is available to be contracted by the smaller (CBI, CIT) tournaments.
Quote from: #UnleashGreg on March 23, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
People are seriously considering making a charge just a turnover? How much do we want to handicap defense lol.
Sliding in front of a driving player in a basketball game is like a car driver who, looking for someone to sue, cuts
right in front of another car and slams on the brakes. If you think this is a "handicap" for defense, why not add tripping? Brad and Grayson showed what an effective defense tactic that could be. Add Brad's patented crotch slap and now you got a great defense!
I have not watched the NBA this year, so I do not know if the coaches still have a challenge. Last year they did have a challenge and the most common thing challenged was a charge call and a lot of them were overturned.