1. Kam doing his best Rowsey imitation in the first half. I miss the thing.
2. One ugly stretch.
3. Made so many 3's MU started settling. Human nature.
4. It sure was nice to see the return of Kolek to Kuath.
5. DM was snakebit. Stop hanging your head. Greg got his minutes late.
6. In the end, Georgetown WAS pitiful. MU did what they needed to.
Basically a bye
One of the worst efforts of the season. Horrible game.
Do not ever call off the dogs with 12 minutes remaining again.
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2022, 08:54:09 PM
1. Kam doing his best Rowsey imitation in the first half. I miss the thing.
2. One ugly stretch.
3. Made so many 3's MU started settling. Human nature.
4. It sure was nice to see the return of Kolek to Kuath.
5. DM was snakebit. Stop hanging your head. Greg got his minutes late.
6. In the end, Georgetown WAS pitiful. MU did what they needed to.
GT was pitiful. So was MU.
Muggs is right. The team is feeding off scoop negativity, lol
I'm usually pretty positive here but the last 10-12 minutes of that game was piss-poor all around, save for the OMax dunk.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 16, 2022, 08:55:00 PM
Do not ever call off the dogs with 12 minutes remaining again.
Yes disrupted game flow.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 16, 2022, 08:55:00 PM
Do not ever call off the dogs with 12 minutes remaining again.
yep crazy. WAYY to early to put the bench in.
MU got up 26 and lost focus. Are we really going to spend the next couple of day whining about it?
(checks and realizes that this is indeed Scoop) I guess we are
Quote from: CountryRoads on February 16, 2022, 08:54:45 PM
One of the worst efforts of the season. Horrible game.
unimpressive. A win is a win tho. But future unclear.
We literally put nearly the worst lineup we could on the court a little early.
But who cares that game was cake
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:56 PM
MU got up 26 and lost focus. Are we really going to spend the next couple of day whining about it?
(checks and realizes that this is indeed Scoop) I guess we are
Yes, we are.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2022, 08:55:57 PM
Muggs is right. The team is feeding off scoop negativity, lol
COLE!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 16, 2022, 09:04:36 PM
COLE!
The Marquette fan is a fascinating character. Regardless of how the team is playing, happiness is in short supply.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 16, 2022, 08:55:00 PM
Do not ever call off the dogs with 12 minutes remaining again.
15 minutes remaining. MU scored 15 points in the final 15 minutes. That was not good at all. But when Mitchell takes three pointers, you know something was amiss. Shaka kept that lineup in way too long.
Seeing Kam score 17 in 11 minutes was fun. Crazy fun, wait till he plays 28 minutes next year, but Shaka will have to reign him in abit. Didn't see much time in second half.
Kur/Oso finally had great night.
Morsell is the most up/down player MU has had in long time. Good grief when he is bad, he is bad. Zero points, turnovers and bench time. Yes, he hung his head early in first minutes and that was that. MU will need him to finish strong.
Run the table now.......
We did what we had to do but totally lost focus and control of our basic intelligence. Obviously G-town is a dumpster fire. Sunday is the perfect opportunity to get back to playing like we know we can on both ends of the floor.
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:56 PM
MU got up 26 and lost focus. Are we really going to spend the next couple of day whining about it?
(checks and realizes that this is indeed Scoop) I guess we are
Is saying not to do it again whining? Or just making a statement or giving an opinion?
Like this is a message board after all
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2022, 09:05:51 PM
The Marquette fan is a fascinating character. Regardless of how the team is playing, happiness is in short supply.
Scoop: The Tortured Artist of BB Message Boards
(https://profoundjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/van-gogh-9.jpg)
Not too thrilled about taking the foot off the gas but boy a W is W.
6-5 guard getting 17 rebounds..... ::)
Very Happy and delighted with another Big East win. Especially over a hated rival.
Quote from: MU24 on February 16, 2022, 09:14:53 PM
Not too thrilled about taking the foot off the gas but boy a W is W.
6-5 guard getting 17 rebounds..... ::)
He had 8 offensive.
MU 6 total. GT 17 total offensive.
45 to 36 GT team. Just a continuing issue.
Quote from: nyg on February 16, 2022, 09:21:55 PM
He had 8 offensive.
MU 6 total. GT 17 total offensive.
45 to 36 GT team. Just a continuing issue.
It can be an issue at times, but they don't see all offensive rebounds as an issue. Of course you want to grab rebounds, but Shaka has talked a lot about how they just force a lot of misses. When a team hucks as many 3s as Georgetown there are going to be a lot of long offensive rebounds. I agree that they do need to clean it up a bit though.
Always something to get better at.
Frustrating second half, but I'm never gonna be one to scream in anger about a double-digit conference win, even over one of the worst BE teams we've seen in eons.
Best game for Kuath in awhile. Kam gave us the cushion. 11 dimes for Kolek. Decent games for JL, O-Max and Greg. Morsell on the milk carton.
Game's over ... move on. Huge one coming up Sunday.
Why ? Why ? Would you pull all of your starters w / 12 mins to go ?
It got REALLY UGLY. It's a W .. but sheez, they did a lot to ruin a 25 point lead.
Yes... Morsell is SO Inconsistent
Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2022, 09:43:01 PM
Frustrating second half, but I'm never gonna be one to scream in anger about a double-digit conference win, even over one of the worst BE teams we've seen in eons.
Best game for Kuath in awhile. Kam gave us the cushion. 11 dimes for Kolek. Decent games for JL, O-Max and Greg. Morsell on the milk carton.
Game's over ... move on. Huge one coming up Sunday.
This. We won. We had some really good moments, lost focus up by a lot over a bad team. Happens.
Let's play better Sunday.
Quote from: Mu8891 on February 16, 2022, 09:56:45 PM
Why ? Why ? Would you pull all of your starters w / 12 mins to go ?
It got REALLY UGLY. It's a W .. but sheez, they did a lot to ruin a 25 point lead.
Yes... Morsell is SO Inconsistent
Marquette has enough Q1 wins for the committee to know what they are. Sure it doesn't look good if you think it will affect their next game, but I'm pretty confident it won't. Morsell isn't inconsistent. He's always the guy to rely on defensively, he hits big shots. They didn't need him to win tonight and Shaka wanted to send a message before their final Q1 game of the year.
We're fine.
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
The brewski comes out firin'!
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
Win at Creighton and they may be in the top 16 next week anyways.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
Great podcast. Thanks for all the work, I appreciate it. However, Me thinks you live and die too much by your S Curve too early.
Georgetown improved three spots by losing double digits to MU for example. Creighton is the bigger seeding prize. GT sucks and they are a concrete BE anchor. Goose called it: Creighton is the prize.
The Legs has guaranteed a Omaha win! All in!!!
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
Brew, I was curious what you think about O-Max going to the offensive glass more? The kid has played quite well since his erratic and slow start. He's not a great jump shooter but I think he has a high ceiling (no pun intended) moving forward. I see a guy who could be a solid double digit scorer and a significantly better rebounder.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on February 16, 2022, 10:06:51 PM
Win at Creighton and they may be in the top 16 next week anyways.
The Top-16 Reveal is Saturday.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 16, 2022, 10:19:37 PM
Great podcast. Thanks for all the work, I appreciate it. However, Me thinks you live and die too much by your S Curve too early.
Not just mine, but seeding in general. You're not wrong, but it drives me nuts when we play with great efficiency for 28 minutes then spend the last 12 sitting on the floor making finger paintings in the diarrhea that just ran down our legs. This staff is too analytically savvy to let that happen and not have some fire aimed in their direction.
I know we are playing with a bit of house money now, but I do NOT want to waste it. The last time Marquette and Shaka won tournament games was in 2013. We were supposed to be united in 2014, but since that didn't happen, we've both paid penance by being held NCAA winless ever since. Now that we're together, and in position to be legitimately favored, I want that win. And watching us go from the doorstep of a 4 to a potential 7/10 tossup is both disappointing and unnerving.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 10:25:25 PM
The Top-16 Reveal is Saturday.
Right but they won't be in it this week. Don't they update it weekly?
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on February 16, 2022, 10:32:01 PM
Right but they won't be in it this week. Don't they update it weekly?
Nope. One Reveal the Saturday after the Super Bowl. Nothing else from the Committee until Selection Sunday.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
The last coach woulda never given up that early.
But seriously, that was brutal. Especially when they had to know the NET is in play
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 10:30:48 PM
Not just mine, but seeding in general. You're not wrong, but it drives me nuts when we play with great efficiency for 28 minutes then spend the last 12 sitting on the floor making finger paintings in the diarrhea that just ran down our legs. This staff is too analytically savvy to let that happen and not have some fire aimed in their direction.
I know we are playing with a bit of house money now, but I do NOT want to waste it. The last time Marquette and Shaka won tournament games was in 2013. We were supposed to be united in 2014, but since that didn't happen, we've both paid penance by being held NCAA winless ever since. Now that we're together, and in position to be legitimately favored, I want that win. And watching us go from the doorstep of a 4 to a potential 7/10 tossup is both disappointing and unnerving.
Agree to your general point but am curious how much a 15 point victory would've changed our net ranking rather than the 11 pointer which played out ?
This is far and away the most flawed portion of the net and frankly needs to be corrected next season. Blowing out bad teams shouldn't be rewarded the way it is (hello Iowa).
Using last night as an example, Marquette absolutely throttled Georgetown for 70% of the game, took the starters out (safe move for injuries and after the tired performance against butler) and Georgetown makes a frantic run to push the difference to.....11 points.
The game last night was never within any shadow of a doubt for Marquette and know they'll theoretically be bumped down because of it.
I don't think this portion needs to be eliminated as throttling a team closely ranked to you, ie destroying providence, is much more telling about a teams true quality than it is running up the score against bad teams.
Quote from: pbiflyer on February 16, 2022, 09:58:46 PM
This. We won. We had some really good moments, lost focus up by a lot over a bad team. Happens.
Let's play better Sunday.
I was more concerned that we came out flat yet again. Tied with 8 minutes to go in the first half. We had a 43-17 run over a 16 minute span covering roughly the last 8 minutes of the first half and the first 8 minutes of the second half, which is very impressive. Outscored by Georgetown 49-34 in the other 24 minutes, which is not so good.
Only other nitpick is we had trouble with their pressure a bit at the end of the game, passing into corners and having to use TOs.
Kam's run to right the ship was a lot of fun, and see Kuath score some was great, as well as a good all-around game from Kolek.
That was an ugly game but take the W and move onto to Sun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-httdKCPMXQ
Shaka post game.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401373595
Box score
OMP was really solid. I was impressed how he was being used to break the press. Handled the ball really well. Saw the floor, moved the ball.
Big fan of Oso's offensive aggressiveness even if it didn't always work out. Big fan of OMax's offensive aggressiveness. Big fan of the rebounding mentality, shot went up, most guys boxed out, even Jop, who gave solid minutes.
Not a big fan of DM generally, has to quit with the palms up, head down, out of the game mentality, it's painful to watch. He is also not doing well what he is supposed to be best at. He had moments of good help D last night, but he seems a bit lost. Hopefully there will be a mental recharge moment soon, and he leads again through high effort.
Yeah, I would have liked to win by 30, but it's a slog of a season and getting rest at the end when you can is important.
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:56 PM
MU got up 26 and lost focus. Are we really going to spend the next couple of day whining about it?
(checks and realizes that this is indeed Scoop) I guess we are
Don't often laugh out loud on a hangover but you got me, Tower. God, I love Scoop.
Did Shaka put the bench in a little early? Sure. But the game was never in doubt at that point. That 15 minute stretch from 10:00 in the first half to 15:00 in the second was the best they have played in a couple of weeks. The ball movement was great. They weren't settling for 3s. Defending well. Rebounding well.
I don't know exactly what people are expecting. A 30 point lead stretching to 50? Even then Scoop would find something to complain about.
We love to 2nd guess the coach.
If one of the starters would have gotten hurt in the last 12 minutes, we most likely would have been hearing the exact opposite from the posters. "Why did he keep the starters in when the game's outcome was not a factor!?"
Quote from: tower912 on February 17, 2022, 07:21:36 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-httdKCPMXQ
Shaka post game.
"Georgetown's a dangerous team."Uh ... no. But what's he supposed to say? They are a horrendously coached team and an embarrassment to the Big East?
"Kam thinks if he makes one, he's on a heater."Made me chuckle -- and nod in agreement.
"Kur didn't play particularly well in either game last week."Yep.
"We got a little 3-point happy."True.
Also: Rivers talked to the team before the game.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 07:49:06 AM
"Kam thinks if he makes one, he's on a heater."
Made me chuckle -- and nod in agreement.
I mentioned this in the SOTG topic, but Kam's air ball heat check did not seem to make Shaka happy. He barely played after that point.
Maybe that is one of the secrets of Marquette's success this year. Have famous BB alumni talk to the team before the game.
Doc Rivers, Wes Mathews, line up Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Travis Diener, Steve Novak, D Wade, Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, etc. throughout the rest of the season, BE tourney and NCAA tournament.
Are people really upset we tried some different guys together up a million with 12 minutes left? Who cares lol. We won - we weren't in danger to lose at any point.
You play to win the game and we won. Cry more because we made you a little anxious.
Quote from: Clarissa on February 17, 2022, 07:43:30 AM
Did Shaka put the bench in a little early? Sure. But the game was never in doubt at that point. That 15 minute stretch from 10:00 in the first half to 15:00 in the second was the best they have played in a couple of weeks. The ball movement was great. They weren't settling for 3s. Defending well. Rebounding well.
I don't know exactly what people are expecting. A 30 point lead stretching to 50? Even then Scoop would find something to complain about.
We didn't play well after we pushed it to 24 with 17 mins to go. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't mean a whole lot but we did lose focus which was disappointing. You can never win by too many points and bludgeoning teams can be a confidence booster. Regardless, Sunday is the key game. We must take care of business, it's imperative. I fully expect to get back on track and our swagger back.
NBA teams lose focus when they are blowing teams out. The difference is the opponent usually has the ability to score in bunches and actually come back. Georgetown wasn't coming back from that.
Regarding the substitutions, I understand the disappointment from the metrics point of view, but sometimes coaching decisions are not about the metrics.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 07:57:02 AM
Are people really upset we tried some different guys together up a million with 12 minutes left? Who cares lol. We won - we weren't in danger to lose at any point.
You play to win the game and we won. Cry more because we made you a little anxious.
Agreed.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 17, 2022, 07:58:12 AM
We didn't play well after we pushed it to 24 with 17 mins to go. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't mean a whole lot but we did lose focus which was disappointing.
Also agreed.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 17, 2022, 07:58:12 AMYou can never win by too many points and bludgeoning teams can be a confidence booster.
And so can holding on to win a game with three freshman, one "freshman" and one super senior on the floor. With the added benefit of potentially helping the team down the road by getting some of the young'uns a little bit of run.
We won. Awesome. On to the next game.
We're 15 games through a ~20 game Big East grind. The game was never in doubt once we built the lead.
Since we have been fading, I would have loved to see us keep the pedal down and blow them out of the building. Reality though is we don't need that. We need the W and to get ready for the weekend.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 07:57:02 AM
Are people really upset we tried some different guys together up a million with 12 minutes left? Who cares lol. We won - we weren't in danger to lose at any point.
You play to win the game and we won. Cry more because we made you a little anxious.
I don't think a single Scooper has said he or she was "anxious" about the W/L outcome. There was 0.00% chance we were gonna lose that game. Anybody who knows anything knew that was the case before tip-off, during the first 10 minutes, during the next 10 minutes, during the first 8 minutes of the second half and during the last 12 minutes of the game. 0.00% chance of losing.
Some folks are a little disappointed and/or frustrated because ...
1. You want to play the game "right," no matter who's in the game. Sloppy passing, stoopid shots, lack of D, whatever, aren't acceptable. Shaka waited a little too long, but he showed that HE felt it was unacceptable when he put the starters back out there (minus Morsell). He was disappointed and frustrated with how it was going. I hope you think it's OK that the coach "cares."
2. We want the best seed possible for the NCAA tournament ... and like it or not, hammering horrible, horrible teams by 20+ points goes into the formula that helps decide that. So again, it felt like a missed opportunity. And again, the coach recognized that. HE wasn't saying, "Who cares lol."
Most folks aren't depressed or angry. Maybe a couple are, but I'm not. I just thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity, and I'm glad our coach confirmed that belief.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 08:09:10 AM
I don't think a single Scooper has said he or she was "anxious" about the W/L outcome. There was 0.00% chance we were gonna lose that game. Anybody who knows anything knew that was the case before tip-off, during the first 10 minutes, during the next 10 minutes, during the first 8 minutes of the second half and during the last 12 minutes of the game. 0.00% chance of losing.
Some folks are a little disappointed and/or frustrated because ...
1. You want to play the game "right," no matter who's in the game. Sloppy passing, stoopid shots, lack of D, whatever, aren't acceptable. Shaka waited a little too long, but he showed that HE felt it was unacceptable when he put the starters back out there (minus Morsell). He was disappointed and frustrated with how it was going. I hope you think it's OK that the coach "cares."
2. We want the best seed possible for the NCAA tournament ... and like it or not, hammering horrible, horrible teams by 20+ points goes into the formula that helps decide that. So again, it felt like a missed opportunity. And again, the coach recognized that. HE wasn't saying, "Who cares lol."
Most folks aren't depressed or angry. Maybe a couple are, but I'm not. I just thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity, and I'm glad our coach confirmed that belief.
Absolutely, Shaka cared, and that's good. He should. However, it would seem that he also cared about getting that lineup some time on the floor. In fact, given how long he went with that lineup, one could surmise that he cared even more about that. And that's OK too.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 10:25:25 PM
The Top-16 Reveal is Saturday.
The Top 16 Reveal!!!!
This is a thing now. It's just for clicks and $$$.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 08:09:10 AM
I don't think a single Scooper has said he or she was "anxious" about the W/L outcome. There was 0.00% chance we were gonna lose that game. Anybody who knows anything knew that was the case before tip-off, during the first 10 minutes, during the next 10 minutes, during the first 8 minutes of the second half and during the last 12 minutes of the game. 0.00% chance of losing.
Some folks are a little disappointed and/or frustrated because ...
1. You want to play the game "right," no matter who's in the game. Sloppy passing, stoopid shots, lack of D, whatever, aren't acceptable. Shaka waited a little too long, but he showed that HE felt it was unacceptable when he put the starters back out there (minus Morsell). He was disappointed and frustrated with how it was going. I hope you think it's OK that the coach "cares."
2. We want the best seed possible for the NCAA tournament ... and like it or not, hammering horrible, horrible teams by 20+ points goes into the formula that helps decide that. So again, it felt like a missed opportunity. And again, the coach recognized that. HE wasn't saying, "Who cares lol."
Most folks aren't depressed or angry. Maybe a couple are, but I'm not. I just thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity, and I'm glad our coach confirmed that belief.
they need a hobby.
FIFY
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 07:57:02 AM
Are people really upset we tried some different guys together up a million with 12 minutes left?
Some sound that way. I'm not. That is when you try new things. I'm disapointed that those guy who do get mintues played poor in the segement of the game.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 17, 2022, 08:12:01 AM
Absolutely, Shaka cared, and that's good. He should. However, it would seem that he also cared about getting that lineup some time on the floor. In fact, given how long he went with that lineup, one could surmise that he cared even more about that. And that's OK too.
Or ... he waited a little too long to make a change. I REALLY like Shaka as a coach, but like all of us, he isn't perfect.
That he didn't give a single one of those guys (except Oso out of necessity) a second of playing time in the final 7:27 of a wrapped-up game tells you all you need to know about what Shaka's degree of contentment there.
I don't like that the current NET system incentivizes running up the score, but that's simply the way it is until it's changed. And Shaka has shown many times this season that he's well aware of it.
We won. I'm glad. It was never in doubt. I'm glad about that, too. We missed an opportunity to improve our NET or at least keep it level. I'm a little disappointed about that ... and I don't think that tiny degree of disappointment makes me hyper-critical or anything. Indeed, I'm guessing Shaka is a little more disappointed than I am.
On to Sunday. It's become a very big game in the grand scheme of things. We Are Marquette!
Quote from: Clarissa on February 17, 2022, 07:43:30 AM
Did Shaka put the bench in a little early? Sure. But the game was never in doubt at that point. That 15 minute stretch from 10:00 in the first half to 15:00 in the second was the best they have played in a couple of weeks. The ball movement was great. They weren't settling for 3s. Defending well. Rebounding well.
I don't know exactly what people are expecting. A 30 point lead stretching to 50? Even then Scoop would find something to complain about.
It wasn't about the game being in doubt. Vegas was on the hotline so Gtown could make the spread.
Quote from: Clarissa on February 17, 2022, 07:51:29 AM
I mentioned this in the SOTG topic, but Kam's air ball heat check did not seem to make Shaka happy. He barely played after that point.
Here's his quote about that:
"I had told him the timeout before, just keep taking good shots," MU head coach Shaka Smart said. "He didn't really admit that that wasn't a good shot. He just said the ball slipped. So he came over and we talked about it."
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on February 17, 2022, 08:41:16 AM
Here's his quote about that:
"I had told him the timeout before, just keep taking good shots," MU head coach Shaka Smart said. "He didn't really admit that that wasn't a good shot. He just said the ball slipped. So he came over and we talked about it."
Love it! Also loved Kam's performance but don't let anyone get away with excuses-even when they are on a hot streak.
Edit: I would rather see Shaka's public comments be a little more diplomatic though, but that's not his style.
Marquette dropped from 29 to 31 in the NET allowing Providence back into the top 30 making them a Q1 win again.
Seems like a win to me!
Situationally, I was OK with Kam's heat check 3. It was a bad shot, but they had a decent lead and he was really lighting it up. Sometimes those go in.
There was a teachable moment that came out of it, and I'm pleased that Shaka seemed to take advantage of it.
All-around, I thought it was fine and handled well.
Quote from: Clarissa on February 17, 2022, 07:51:29 AM
I mentioned this in the SOTG topic, but Kam's air ball heat check did not seem to make Shaka happy. He barely played after that point.
Maybe, but they were laughing about it on the bench right after it happened. Jones looked real sheepish.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on February 16, 2022, 09:58:56 PM
Morsell isn't inconsistent.
Huh?
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 08:09:10 AM
There was 0.00% chance we were gonna lose that game.
Well, your % is a little off, but generally yes. Had a couple more shots fallen for GTown during that stretch the win certainly would have been in danger. But luckily they didn't and it wasn't.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
Brew—is a bad win based upon the point spread? If we will by 15 was it a good win, win by 11 is a bad win? Serious question.
Admittedly don't follow the numbers closely enough to know why such a small maryin can cause such a drop.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 08:21:41 AM
Or ... he waited a little too long to make a change. I REALLY like Shaka as a coach, but like all of us, he isn't perfect.
That he didn't give a single one of those guys (except Oso out of necessity) a second of playing time in the final 7:27 of a wrapped-up game tells you all you need to know about what Shaka's degree of contentment there.
I don't like that the current NET system incentivizes running up the score, but that's simply the way it is until it's changed. And Shaka has shown many times this season that he's well aware of it.
We won. I'm glad. It was never in doubt. I'm glad about that, too. We missed an opportunity to improve our NET or at least keep it level. I'm a little disappointed about that ... and I don't think that tiny degree of disappointment makes me hyper-critical or anything. Indeed, I'm guessing Shaka is a little more disappointed than I am.
On to Sunday. It's become a very big game in the grand scheme of things. We Are Marquette!
I agree. I wasn't really intending to defend Shaka's decision, but simply say that the fact that he did it seems to suggest that he cared more about getting those guys some playing time than he did about winning by 25-30. I'm sure he's very disappointed in how they performed and he's indicated as much. I suspect that is the source of his disappointment far more than the fact that those extra 15-20 points in the margin of victory might have helped our seed.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 07:57:02 AM
Are people really upset we tried some different guys together up a million with 12 minutes left? Who cares lol. We won - we weren't in danger to lose at any point.
You play to win the game and we won. Cry more because we made you a little anxious.
Sorry but this is dumb. I'm generally very positive and don't enjoy criticizing. In fact, there's been very little to criticize in regards to Shaka this season.
However, I found the lineup decision and the length of time he stuck with that lineup to be bizarre. I know when you're up 26 it's hard to maintain a level of intensity and focus but the rest of the game was a slog. The starters had to come back in and it was clear they had lost focus already. In fact, I think they could have been more likely to get hurt playing in such a listless and unfocused manner. I don't mind trying to get them some extra rest in a game like that but I don't think the lineup or process made a whole lot of sense.
And while we may not agree with how margin impacts some of the metrics the reality is it does. A 15 or 20 point win would have been better and was easily attainable.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2022, 09:35:42 AM
Sorry but this is dumb. I'm generally very positive and don't enjoy criticizing. In fact, there's been very little to criticize in regards to Shaka this season.
However, I found the lineup decision and the length of time he stuck with that lineup to be bizarre. I know when you're up 26 it's hard to maintain a level of intensity and focus but the rest of the game was a slog. The starters had to come back in and it was clear they had lost focus already. In fact, I think they could have been more likely to get hurt playing in such a listless and unfocused manner. I don't mind trying to get them some extra rest in a game like that but I don't think the lineup or process made a whole lot of sense.
And while we may not agree with how margin impacts some of the metrics the reality is it does. A 15 or 20 point win would have been better and was easily attainable.
Excellent comment. 100% true.
The fact that many of us agree with this shouldn't be confused with us being "outraged" or "upset" or any other extreme when it comes to last night's result.
It was a little disappointing as to how it wound up IMHO. I don't think saying that makes anybody over-critical or seeming as to not support Shaka or the team, and I'm actually a little surprised at the degree of pushback. I mean, it was clear that Shaka was a little disappointed, too.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2022, 09:35:42 AM
Sorry but this is dumb. I'm generally very positive and don't enjoy criticizing. In fact, there's been very little to criticize in regards to Shaka this season.
However, I found the lineup decision and the length of time he stuck with that lineup to be bizarre. I know when you're up 26 it's hard to maintain a level of intensity and focus but the rest of the game was a slog. The starters had to come back in and it was clear they had lost focus already. In fact, I think they could have been more likely to get hurt playing in such a listless and unfocused manner. I don't mind trying to get them some extra rest in a game like that but I don't think the lineup or process made a whole lot of sense.
And while we may not agree with how margin impacts some of the metrics the reality is it does. A 15 or 20 point win would have been better and was easily attainable.
I would say it's real progress when the discussion is about how much we won by. Much better than last season at this time.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 07:57:02 AM
Are people really upset we tried some different guys together up a million with 12 minutes left? Who cares lol. We won - we weren't in danger to lose at any point.
You play to win the game and we won. Cry more because we made you a little anxious.
200%. Some really childish comments on this easy win.
I call last night progress. The fact that folks are disappointed that we played poorly for 32 minutes and only won by 11 is step forward. Last night was a positive for the growth of the team/program, IMO. Getting the younger guys to play together in late Feb is a luxury and it will pay off later this year or next year. In addition, good teams win when they do not have their A game. MU had their C game and won by 11. I call last night a success. In addition, they can win with their D game on Sunday as long as they win.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 09:42:02 AM
Excellent comment. 100% true.
The fact that many of us agree with this shouldn't be confused with us being "outraged" or "upset" or any other extreme when it comes to last night's result.
It was a little disappointing as to how it wound up IMHO. I don't think saying that makes anybody over-critical or seeming as to not support Shaka or the team, and I'm actually a little surprised at the degree of pushback. I mean, it was clear that Shaka was a little disappointed, too.
Knock on wood - say one of our starters goes down injured in the next couple games and Stevie or Joplin need more minutes. Getting extended run last night prepares both of them much more than any practice time could. That is more valuable IMO than moving up one spot in the net because we won by 16 instead of 11.
Quote from: Goose on February 17, 2022, 10:20:45 AM
I call last night progress. The fact that folks are disappointed that we played poorly for 32 minutes and only won by 11 is step forward. Last night was a positive for the growth of the team/program, IMO. Getting the younger guys to play together in late Feb is a luxury and it will pay off later this year or next year. In addition, good teams win when they do not have their A game. MU had their C game and won by 11. I call last night a success. In addition, they can win with their D game on Sunday as long as they win.
I was typing as you posted - agree 100%
Yea, we may have to play some weird combinations in the BET and NCAAT. Might as well get some guys some non-garbage time experience.
Quote from: Goose on February 17, 2022, 10:20:45 AM
I call last night progress. The fact that folks are disappointed that we played poorly for 32 minutes and only won by 11 is step forward. Last night was a positive for the growth of the team/program, IMO. Getting the younger guys to play together in late Feb is a luxury and it will pay off later this year or next year. In addition, good teams win when they do not have their A game. MU had their C game and won by 11. I call last night a success. In addition, they can win with their D game on Sunday as long as they win.
As usual, you are the voice of reason. I've been tossing this around in my head today and have slowly come to a similar take. Shaka decided to invest in the future and knew this was very likely his best chance this season.
Like many, I was disappointed with the final margin. In times like this, I remind myself what my expectations were early in the season vs. what Shaka and the team have given us. It's important to look at the big picture rather than bitching about Butler or last night's margin.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 08:21:41 AM
Or ... he waited a little too long to make a change. I REALLY like Shaka as a coach, but like all of us, he isn't perfect.
That he didn't give a single one of those guys (except Oso out of necessity) a second of playing time in the final 7:27 of a wrapped-up game tells you all you need to know about what Shaka's degree of contentment there.
I don't like that the current NET system incentivizes running up the score, but that's simply the way it is until it's changed. And Shaka has shown many times this season that he's well aware of it.
We won. I'm glad. It was never in doubt. I'm glad about that, too. We missed an opportunity to improve our NET or at least keep it level. I'm a little disappointed about that ... and I don't think that tiny degree of disappointment makes me hyper-critical or anything. Indeed, I'm guessing Shaka is a little more disappointed than I am.
On to Sunday. It's become a very big game in the grand scheme of things. We Are Marquette!
Not just running up the score, but also the ability to use games to help develop your team. Think about guys like Joplin and Ellis--they probably get fewer minutes because we want to avoid a closer win than we would have if we just left our starters play longer.
In addition to recognizing that the NET should not incentivize teams to leave in their starters and keep the foot on the gas as long as possible to build scoring margin, I'd like to see two additional fixes:
1. Give more weight to late-season games. By giving all games equal weight, you really hurt teams like Marquette that have a lot of newcomers that need time to learn how to play together. Marquette in March shouldn't be negatively impacted by a 2 point win over New Hampshire from three months prior.
2. Figure how to account for missing key players in individual games (on both sides). The NET impact of Providence over Wisconsin (and yes, MU over Illinois) should be tempered to reflect the absence of key players on the losing side. Similarly, DePaul should get more credit for their win over Xavier (and Xavier should be treated more harshly) because DePaul won without Freeman-Liberty in the lineup.
Let me put the kibosh on this now:
1) Georgetown is a crappy team, no ifs, ands or buts. We should have beaten them.
2) We did what we were supposed to do.
3) It was a blow-out, no matter what the final score said. In the last six minutes of the first half, we sent them packing. Everything else was inconsequential.
4) The benefit of beating Georgetown by 20 or 30 is outweighed by the chance to get all of our roster in the game. That will matter in a close NCAA game.
5) The fact that nine of our team members scored is not insignificant either. Not was the bench scoring last night, which was huge.
6) Don't forget, we shot the lights out last night. It's because our inside/out game was really huge.
7) If we kept the heat on full force all night, it was going to come back to bite us. Remember, Georgetown shocked the world last year in the Big East Tournament. Let's not give them a reason to hate us more than they do.
After two losses in a row in games we could have won, this was a nice recovery. On to Omaha and let's kill some Blue Turdbird.
Someone else said this but I think it was the best summary. I am not disappointed that Shaka pulled the starters while up 20+ and gave the bench more run. This theoretically can benefit the team long term by developing the bench, increasing morale for the bench players, and prevent potential injuries to key players. I am disappointed that the bench got outplayed by 10-15 points. I'm not outraged or anything like that, just noting that the bench has some things to work on (as all players do).
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year.
Just a terrible take. Not everything can be quantified. Getting bench guys some burn in a February Big East game will pay dividends in a way KenPom can't run through his machine. Good coaches know that.
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 17, 2022, 12:01:35 PM
Let me put the kibosh on this now:
1) Georgetown is a crappy team, no ifs, ands or buts. We should have beaten them.
2) We did what we were supposed to do.
3) It was a blow-out, no matter what the final score said. In the last six minutes of the first half, we sent them packing. Everything else was inconsequential.
4) The benefit of beating Georgetown by 20 or 30 is outweighed by the chance to get all of our roster in the game. That will matter in a close NCAA game.
5) The fact that nine of our team members scored is not insignificant either. Not was the bench scoring last night, which was huge.
6) Don't forget, we shot the lights out last night. It's because our inside/out game was really huge.
7) If we kept the heat on full force all night, it was going to come back to bite us. Remember, Georgetown shocked the world last year in the Big East Tournament. Let's not give them a reason to hate us more than they do.
After two losses in a row in games we could have won, this was a nice recovery. On to Omaha and let's kill some Blue Turdbird.
You forgot
8) unnatural carnal knowledge the Cardinals ;D
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on February 17, 2022, 01:30:51 PM
You forgot
8) unnatural carnal knowledge the Cardinals ;D
Brother Spotcheck:
No, I didn't.
;D
Quote from: panda on February 17, 2022, 10:22:09 AM
Knock on wood - say one of our starters goes down injured in the next couple games and Stevie or Joplin need more minutes. Getting extended run last night prepares both of them much more than any practice time could. That is more valuable IMO than moving up one spot in the net because we won by 16 instead of 11.
The problem with that is I don't see that very unsuccessful run last night being of much benefit. I think the young guys like Stevie and Joplin benefit more when they're part of a more effective unit on the floor and not one where Stevie launches two 3 pointers because our offense wasn't functioning.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 17, 2022, 11:15:54 AM
As usual, you are the voice of reason. I've been tossing this around in my head today and have slowly come to a similar take. Shaka decided to invest in the future and knew this was very likely his best chance this season.
Like many, I was disappointed with the final margin. In times like this, I remind myself what my expectations were early in the season vs. what Shaka and the team have given us. It's important to look at the big picture rather than bitching about Butler or last night's margin.
Questioning or criticizing a decision does not always equal "bitching". That's just a lazy take.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2022, 01:35:54 PM
Questioning or criticizing a decision does not always equal "bitching". That's just a lazy take.
Fair enough. Specifically, I was talking about myself but point made.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2022, 01:35:54 PM
Questioning or criticizing a decision does not always equal "bitching". That's just a lazy take.
Questioning or criticizing a coach for a decision that resulted in going from a double digit win to a double digit win is moronic. Who cares?? Does it help your little ego to pound Georgetown into dust at home?
Part of the reason Wojo's guys lacked year over year development is because he sucked ass at reaching down the bench. He also had a quick hook for guys like Elliott and Cain early in their careers, killing their confidence entirely. And guess what - our teams sucked anyway!
Now we've got a coach exceeding expectations by nearly every metric, poised to make the tourney in Year 1, competing for a top 3 finish in the league in Year 1, and he seems to have the most cohesive Marquette squad in years.
And you are literally bawling over an 11 point win because he got some backups some burn?
SAD!
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
The problem with that is I don't see that very unsuccessful run last night being of much benefit. I think the young guys like Stevie and Joplin benefit more when they're part of a more effective unit on the floor and not one where Stevie launches two 3 pointers because our offense wasn't functioning.
At minimum, they're protecting our starters from injury. Couple that with actual playing time and I'm not sure how that's a negative.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 01:43:43 PM
Questioning or criticizing a coach for a decision that resulted in going from a double digit win to a double digit win is moronic. Who cares?? Does it help your little ego to pound Georgetown into dust at home?
Part of the reason Wojo's guys lacked year over year development is because he sucked ass at reaching down the bench. He also had a quick hook for guys like Elliott and Cain early in their careers, killing their confidence entirely. And guess what - our teams sucked anyway!
Now we've got a coach exceeding expectations by nearly every metric, poised to make the tourney in Year 1, competing for a top 3 finish in the league in Year 1, and he seems to have the most cohesive Marquette squad in years.
And you are literally bawling over an 11 point win because he got some backups some burn?
SAD!
While I agree that the hand-wringing over this is a bit much, the bolded just isn't true. Wojo played about the same number of guys that Shaka is. Shaka has 9 guys averaging over 10 mpg. Wojo regularly had 9, even 10 guys averaging that plus one year with 8. The only year he had 7 was his second year when there was zippo talent outside of Henry.
There was plenty not to like about Wojo, so you don't have to make things up.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 01:43:43 PM
Questioning or criticizing a coach for a decision that resulted in going from a double digit win to a double digit win is moronic. Who cares?? Does it help your little ego to pound Georgetown into dust at home?
Part of the reason Wojo's guys lacked year over year development is because he sucked ass at reaching down the bench. He also had a quick hook for guys like Elliott and Cain early in their careers, killing their confidence entirely. And guess what - our teams sucked anyway!
Now we've got a coach exceeding expectations by nearly every metric, poised to make the tourney in Year 1, competing for a top 3 finish in the league in Year 1, and he seems to have the most cohesive Marquette squad in years.
And you are literally bawling over an 11 point win because he got some backups some burn?
SAD!
It literally has nothing to do with my ego, you obtuse halfwit. Nor am I LITERALLY crying (do me a favor and look up what the word means).
I'll try to spell it out to you like you're 5 years old, which may not be helpful enough. Shaka has been outstanding. Feel free to find any posts where I've criticized him, including during and after the Creighton and Butler losses. This season has been above and beyond any of my expectations and I'm excited as I've ever been about the future of Marquette basketball.
Yet, last night, I found his lineup decisions in the 2nd half questionable, both in terms of the lineup itself and how long he stayed with it. I don't see much benefit for some of the guys who don't get a lot of minutes in terms of how they were used last night. That's not saying I think I know better than Shaka but he's also not infallible. I think they are fair questions.
Yet asking that has something to do with my ego? And I'm *literally* crying about it?
Moron.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 01:43:43 PM
Questioning or criticizing a coach for a decision that resulted in going from a double digit win to a double digit win is moronic. Who cares?? Does it help your little ego to pound Georgetown into dust at home?
Part of the reason Wojo's guys lacked year over year development is because he sucked ass at reaching down the bench. He also had a quick hook for guys like Elliott and Cain early in their careers, killing their confidence entirely. And guess what - our teams sucked anyway!
Now we've got a coach exceeding expectations by nearly every metric, poised to make the tourney in Year 1, competing for a top 3 finish in the league in Year 1, and he seems to have the most cohesive Marquette squad in years.
And you are literally bawling over an 11 point win because he got some backups some burn?
SAD!
You literally lie every time you post. You literally know less about basketball than anybody on the planet. You literally cried about a previous Marquette basketball coach ruining your life - oh literally boo literally hoo.
I made the mistake earlier in this thread of trying to have an actual conversation with you, but you literally are unable to act maturely and converse without going on the attack.
Still, the least I can do is help you learn how to use the word correctly, so here it is in a sentence for you:
You literally rooted against Marquette's basketball team, making the rest of Scoop literally wonder if you're even a Marquette fan.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2022, 09:59:04 PM
Bad win. Between this and Butler, we've dropped 2 seed lines in a week when winning both might've got us in the Top-16 Reveal. I know this is a champagne complaint for a team not expected to be in the field, but sticking with that lineup from up 26 to 13 was one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year. Do that stupid crap when there's 4 minutes left, not 12.
Jerry Palm seems to agree. He dropped Marquette to an 8 seed playing Miami for the right to play Kansas in the Round of 32.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on February 17, 2022, 04:53:10 PM
Jerry Palm seems to agree. He dropped Marquette to an 8 seed playing Miami for the right to play Kansas in the Round of 32.
Jerry Palm is an idiot
Good news! Gtown dipped to
under 200 with only their double digit loss to MU, per KPom.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2022, 08:23:31 AM
Coming from a guy whose hobby for a couple of years was rooting against his own alma mater.
You're confusing me with someone else, I've always rooted for MU and only have posts that reflect that.
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on February 17, 2022, 07:06:08 PM
You're confusing me with someone else, I've always rooted for MU and only have posts that reflect that.
1,000 apologies. I didn't mean that for you, and I just took it down.
There might be another reason Shaka wanted to give his bench so much floor time besides all the things Scoop has already said. Is it possible that some of the bench players have been begging for more PT? Did Shaka want to not only give them a chance to earn more PT, but also to prove to them why they might not deserve more PT than they're getting? If so, that game could go a long way towards giving a few guys a bit of humility.
This is not to say that there's any widespread dissention on the team. I just know that everyone wants to play and when you have 10 or 11 able bodies on a roster, the PT management is always a delicate balance.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 17, 2022, 09:21:11 AM
Brew—is a bad win based upon the point spread? If we will by 15 was it a good win, win by 11 is a bad win? Serious question.
Admittedly don't follow the numbers closely enough to know why such a small maryin can cause such a drop.
It was bad because of the 15 squandered points. We let the lead go from 26 to 11, which is a metric loss instead of a win. 15 point swings are big, especially against teams as bad as Georgetown. We also had to bring the starters back in, so saving their legs as a strategy didn't work.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 17, 2022, 12:57:34 PM
Just a terrible take. Not everything can be quantified. Getting bench guys some burn in a February Big East game will pay dividends in a way KenPom can't run through his machine. Good coaches know that.
What can be quantified is that prior to that stretch, that lineup was the 56th most efficient lineup we could use. That means there were 55 better combinations. Those 5 had only played together on 4 possessions all season. You'd think the first 4 on Wednesday would've been enough to make a change, but they got 9 possessions before Shaka had to abandon the "rest the starters" mindset and put guys back in.
If you want to give the kids some run, fine. But there was no one on the floor that could create for anyone else. There was no one on the floor that could create for themselves. And any lineup with Jones and Joplin at the same time is going to be terrible defensively. That is all quantifiable.
Take out either Kam or Jop and insert Tyler or Justin, fine. Young players still get run without hemorrhaging the lead you spent 28 minutes building. It was one of the worst stretches of the year, time out should've been called far earlier, and considering this staff has displayed an understanding for laying down the hammer in the past, that was a time to at least minimize the loss, not just play turtle until the next TV timeout.
Some have treated the PT thing as an all-or-nothing deal for the group Shaka had on the floor from the 13:03 mark of the second half to the 7:27 mark: Jones, Joplin, Mitchell, Elliott and Kuath. ... Morsell and Oso subbed in for the latter 2 at the 11:51 mark -- meaning that for about 4 1/2 minutes, the MU lineup included 3 true freshmen, a guy who played 38 minutes all last season and Morsell.
One of Scoop arguments in support of Shaka's strategy seems to be that he needed to play that group together to get them more game experience -- get the kids ready in case they're needed in the BET or NCAAT due to foul trouble, injuries, Covid or other unforeseen situations.
But really, Shaka could have gotten more realistic game experience for them by playing only 2 of Jones/Joplin/Mitchell/Oso at a time, surrounding them with more experienced players, and gone with that kind of rotation for most of the rest of the game.
Indeed, that's exactly what he's done the vast majority of the season, to darn good results, and that's a far more likely "need" scenario than one involving all of them playing at once. It's pretty hard to imagine Shaka needing a lineup of Kam, Joplin, Stevie, Oso and 1 veteran for an extended stretch of an NCAA tournament game.
The irony is that the kids probably would have gotten MORE playing time because Shaka wouldn't have felt he had to use the starting lineup for the final 7:27, and that it would have been higher-quality PT, too.
Again, I'll state the usual caveats: I love the job Shaka's doing, I'm not "angry" or "upset" about Tuesday's game, I think the season's been a big success, I believe we have a legit chance to get to the second weekend, etc. And the vast majority of the time, Shaka has done a great job apportioning PT - it's one of his many strengths as a coach IMHO.
You are all missing the obvious, Shaka had GT +13 ...
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2022, 10:52:53 AM
Some have treated the PT thing as an all-or-nothing deal for the group Shaka had on the floor from the 13:03 mark of the second half to the 7:27 mark: Jones, Joplin, Mitchell, Elliott and Kuath. ... Morsell and Oso subbed in for the latter 2 at the 11:51 mark -- meaning that for about 4 1/2 minutes, the MU lineup included 3 true freshmen, a guy who played 38 minutes all last season and Morsell.
One of Scoop arguments in support of Shaka's strategy seems to be that he needed to play that group together to get them more game experience -- get the kids ready in case they're needed in the BET or NCAAT due to foul trouble, injuries, Covid or other unforeseen situations.
But really, Shaka could have gotten more realistic game experience for them by playing only 2 of Jones/Joplin/Mitchell/Oso at a time, surrounding them with more experienced players, and gone with that kind of rotation for most of the rest of the game.
Indeed, that's exactly what he's done the vast majority of the season, to darn good results, and that's a far more likely "need" scenario than one involving all of them playing at once. It's pretty hard to imagine Shaka needing a lineup of Kam, Joplin, Stevie, Oso and 1 veteran for an extended stretch of an NCAA tournament game.
The irony is that the kids probably would have gotten MORE playing time because Shaka wouldn't have felt he had to use the starting lineup for the final 7:27, and that it would have been higher-quality PT, too.
Again, I'll state the usual caveats: I love the job Shaka's doing, I'm not "angry" or "upset" about Tuesday's game, I think the season's been a big success, I believe we have a legit chance to get to the second weekend, etc. And the vast majority of the time, Shaka has done a great job apportioning PT - it's one of his many strengths as a coach IMHO.
Agree with all this.
My issue is with that particular combination and how long he kept them together with 3 timeouts available and a comfortable lead. I am a big fan of Shaka, but every coach makes mistakes. I would have this as one of the most glaring of the year. Still love him, still think he's doing great overall, and hope he learns from it.
What is the negative net impact from our actual victory rather than a 15-20 point win ?
I think the most glaring mistake was failing to foul up three points with just over 3 seconds on the clock. That strategic error actually cost the team a game!
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 11:01:19 AM
Agree with all this.
My issue is with that particular combination and how long he kept them together with 3 timeouts available and a comfortable lead. I am a big fan of Shaka, but every coach makes mistakes. I would have this as one of the most glaring of the year. Still love him, still think he's doing great overall, and hope he learns from it.
LOL
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2022, 10:52:53 AM
But really, Shaka could have gotten more realistic game experience for them by playing only 2 of Jones/Joplin/Mitchell/Oso at a time, surrounding them with more experienced players, and gone with that kind of rotation for most of the rest of the game.
100% and the guys that don't play much would have had some solid successes during this stretch, which is always good for a young player in a new system.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on February 18, 2022, 12:34:26 PM
LOL
Lol is right. I mean come on. One of the biggest mistakes of the year ?
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
What can be quantified is that prior to that stretch, that lineup was the 56th most efficient lineup we could use. That means there were 55 better combinations. Those 5 had only played together on 4 possessions all season. You'd think the first 4 on Wednesday would've been enough to make a change, but they got 9 possessions before Shaka had to abandon the "rest the starters" mindset and put guys back in.
If you want to give the kids some run, fine. But there was no one on the floor that could create for anyone else. There was no one on the floor that could create for themselves. And any lineup with Jones and Joplin at the same time is going to be terrible defensively. That is all quantifiable.
Take out either Kam or Jop and insert Tyler or Justin, fine. Young players still get run without hemorrhaging the lead you spent 28 minutes building. It was one of the worst stretches of the year, time out should've been called far earlier, and considering this staff has displayed an understanding for laying down the hammer in the past, that was a time to at least minimize the loss, not just play turtle until the next TV timeout.
You're way too zoomed in and that's your problem here. The question is who cares? If going from a 26 point win to an 11 point win makes such an impact on our season that it's worthy of being "one of the worst coaching mistakes of the year", maybe just maybe we were never meant to do anything in the tourney anyway.
We won. I don't care that it was the "56th most efficient lineup". I don't care that our "good team gonna make the tourney normalized for conference and average shoe size of player index" will go from 194.78 to 193.66.
It doesn't matter. Win the games in front of you - that's all you can try to do.
Quote from: panda on February 18, 2022, 01:29:43 PM
Lol is right. I mean come on. One of the biggest mistakes of the year ?
Yes. FWIW, I don't think he's made a ton of coaching mistakes. I think Shaka is deserving of being on the Naismith COY short list and has done way more with this roster than should be expected.
Here's my question for those that disagree. I'll grant not fouling vs Creighton as the most obvious. What are the nine other glaring coaching mistakes Shaka made that are worse than a result that led to a roughly 8-spot average negative shift in our quality metrics, which in terms of NCAA selection is the equivalent of about a full seed line drop?
Please list Shaka's errors, otherwise I'll assume you agree.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 03:22:02 PM
Yes. FWIW, I don't think he's made a ton of coaching mistakes. I think Shaka is deserving of being on the Naismith COY short list and has done way more with this roster than should be expected.
Here's my question for those that disagree. I'll grant not fouling vs Creighton as the most obvious. What are the nine other glaring coaching mistakes Shaka made that are worse than a result that led to a roughly 8-spot average negative shift in our quality metrics, which in terms of NCAA selection is the equivalent of about a full seed line drop?
Please list Shaka's errors, otherwise I'll assume you agree.
I'm not going to go through and list them, but if I would, playing different rotations when the game is solidly in hand against a horrible Georgetown team is extremely low on my list of concerns.
Frankly I see more value in playing those different rotations, not calling timeouts and letting players work out the problems themselves on the court against a poor team. Those are valuable lessons learned that could potentially help us in the future.
I know you're not dodging me as you get a lot of questions, but I'm genuinely interested. What would you think our net impact would've been had we won by 20 instead of 11 Wednesday night ?
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 03:22:02 PM
Yes. FWIW, I don't think he's made a ton of coaching mistakes. I think Shaka is deserving of being on the Naismith COY short list and has done way more with this roster than should be expected.
Here's my question for those that disagree. I'll grant not fouling vs Creighton as the most obvious. What are the nine other glaring coaching mistakes Shaka made that are worse than a result that led to a roughly 8-spot average negative shift in our quality metrics, which in terms of NCAA selection is the equivalent of about a full seed line drop?
Please list Shaka's errors, otherwise I'll assume you agree.
It wasn't a mistake. A move taking a double digit win to a double digit win doesn't qualify as a mistake. Whatever fraction of a percentage point we lost in advanced metrics may very well be made up in experience for the group that got the extra run. Stop being so myopic.
Quote from: panda on February 18, 2022, 03:34:16 PM
I know you're not dodging me as you get a lot of questions, but I'm genuinely interested. What would you think our net impact would've been had we won by 20 instead of 11 Wednesday night ?
I'm not the "Brew" that you addressed, but it looks from his last comment that he's putting the NET impact at about 8 spots.
There has been a tendency to ease up.
DePaul. At Seton Hall. Georgetown.
Are they egregious mistakes? Nah. Definitely not to the level of not fouling Creighton. But these things do add up. Good problem to have, worrying about seeding, hey?
Quote from: panda on February 18, 2022, 03:34:16 PM
I'm not going to go through and list them, but if I would, playing different rotations when the game is solidly in hand against a horrible Georgetown team is extremely low on my list of concerns.
Frankly I see more value in playing those different rotations, not calling timeouts and letting players work out the problems themselves on the court against a poor team. Those are valuable lessons learned that could potentially help us in the future.
I know you're not dodging me as you get a lot of questions, but I'm genuinely interested. What would you think our net impact would've been had we won by 20 instead of 11 Wednesday night ?
NET impact, probably about 6-8 spots. But as I expect us to be in, I'm more worried about our seeding.
Seeding has about an 85% correlation with the average of your resume metric average and quality metric average. Instead of climbing 4-5 in kenpom, which we would have had we held the 26-point lead, we dropped 7 spots. We also dropped in the other quality metrics.
Before GT, our average quality metric was 32.7, after GT it was 40.7. Because you are averaging that with the resume metrics, every 8 spots cut in half is 4, which equates to a full seed line drop (4 teams per line). Had MU won by 18, they would've stayed the same. Win by 26, they probably move up a full seed line. Win by 11 like they did, drop a seed line.
If Shaka changes the lineup when it gets to 20 and we hold there, no big deal, we stay where we're at. Because he let it go as long as he did, we dropped a line. I consider that a poor coaching decision, especially as we had timeouts and he brought the starters back anyway.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2022, 10:52:53 AM
But really, Shaka could have gotten more realistic game experience for them by playing only 2 of Jones/Joplin/Mitchell/Oso at a time, surrounding them with more experienced players, and gone with that kind of rotation for most of the rest of the game.
Indeed, that's exactly what he's done the vast majority of the season, to darn good results, and that's a far more likely "need" scenario than one involving all of them playing at once. It's pretty hard to imagine Shaka needing a lineup of Kam, Joplin, Stevie, Oso and 1 veteran for an extended stretch of an NCAA tournament game.
The irony is that the kids probably would have gotten MORE playing time because Shaka wouldn't have felt he had to use the starting lineup for the final 7:27, and that it would have been higher-quality PT, too.
Exactly this. Could have likely gotten the same guys minutes, and likely better minutes, with some different combinations.
Oh no, I am *literally* crying again?
So, based purely on the metrics, it was a poor coaching strategy.
There's much more to coaching than gaming the metrics. There's player development, which is really hard for us to measure. So hopefully the gain in player development balances out the metrics losses. In this game, it probably doesn't, but that aspect can't be completely dismissed.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 18, 2022, 04:48:45 PM
So, based purely on the metrics, it was a poor coaching strategy.
There's much more to coaching than gaming the metrics. There's player development, which is really hard for us to measure. So hopefully the gain in player development balances out the metrics losses. In this game, it probably doesn't, but that aspect can't be completely dismissed.
It can be when you've reduced sports to 0s and 1s running up and down the court as some have. Darryl Morey never won a championship, guys.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 03:22:02 PM
Yes. FWIW, I don't think he's made a ton of coaching mistakes. I think Shaka is deserving of being on the Naismith COY short list and has done way more with this roster than should be expected.
Here's my question for those that disagree. I'll grant not fouling vs Creighton as the most obvious. What are the nine other glaring coaching mistakes Shaka made that are worse than a result that led to a roughly 8-spot average negative shift in our quality metrics, which in terms of NCAA selection is the equivalent of about a full seed line drop?
Please list Shaka's errors, otherwise I'll assume you agree.
Allowing UCLA to move the tip time. They should've been forced to play as scheduled or forfeited
Quote from: swoopem on February 18, 2022, 05:19:07 PM
Allowing UCLA to move the tip time. They should've been forced to play as scheduled or forfeited
Teal?
If not, really?
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 18, 2022, 03:14:14 PM
It doesn't matter. Win the games in front of you - that's all you can try to do.
Actually it
did matter. And actually there
was more Shaka could have tried to do. Which is why he put the starters back in, and why he wasn't especially satisfied with the result afterward.
Just because you literally refuse to pay attention to basic facts, it doesn't mean the facts literally cease to exist.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:57 PM
Actually it did matter. And actually there was more Shaka could have tried to do. Which is why he put the starters back in, and why he wasn't especially satisfied with the result afterward.
Just because you literally refuse to pay attention to basic facts, it doesn't mean the facts literally cease to exist.
It didn't matter. We won.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 18, 2022, 06:54:12 PM
It didn't matter. We won.
2018 wants its take back. Like it or not, the RPI is dead and style points absolutely do matter.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 18, 2022, 06:54:12 PM
It didn't matter. We won.
You be very wrong. Not how it works now.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 07:12:20 PM
2018 wants its take back. Like it or not, the RPI is dead and style points absolutely do matter.
Except they don't. If a Horizon league team wins every game by 1 point, and goes on to win every game in the tourney by 1 point, they just won a national championship.
They don't matter. Win the games in front of you.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 18, 2022, 07:52:45 PM
Except they don't. If a Horizon league team wins every game by 1 point, and goes on to win every game in the tourney by 1 point, they just won a national championship.
They don't matter. Win the games in front of you.
As soon as you provide the example of this actually happening, you'll have a point. Until then, you're just defending a bad decision.
I don't get why some people get so defensive when it comes to defending Shaka. He makes mistakes. He's human. It's fine. This is the exact kind of behavior that people declared as being ProJo, yet apparently now it's back en vogue and coach is infallible.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 04:32:40 PM
NET impact, probably about 6-8 spots. But as I expect us to be in, I'm more worried about our seeding.
Seeding has about an 85% correlation with the average of your resume metric average and quality metric average. Instead of climbing 4-5 in kenpom, which we would have had we held the 26-point lead, we dropped 7 spots. We also dropped in the other quality metrics.
Before GT, our average quality metric was 32.7, after GT it was 40.7. Because you are averaging that with the resume metrics, every 8 spots cut in half is 4, which equates to a full seed line drop (4 teams per line). Had MU won by 18, they would've stayed the same. Win by 26, they probably move up a full seed line. Win by 11 like they did, drop a seed line.
If Shaka changes the lineup when it gets to 20 and we hold there, no big deal, we stay where we're at. Because he let it go as long as he did, we dropped a line. I consider that a poor coaching decision, especially as we had timeouts and he brought the starters back anyway.
Just looking at before and after NET Georgetown blowouts and the first one I looked at was the 2-6 providence game. PC only moved up two spots.
UConn dropped from 15 to 17 after their blowout win on 1-25.
Seton hall moved up two spots from 43-41 following their blowout w against Georgetown on 2/1.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how Marquette would've made such a jump in net had they won by a wider margin than they actually did.
Also it's quite an assumption to believe they would've maintained the lead throughout the game.
More people that don't understand how NET works. How cute.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 18, 2022, 08:31:35 PM
More people that don't understand how NET works. How cute.
Explain it to me like I'm 5. I'm happy to learn because clearly my interpretation is wrong.
Quote from: panda on February 18, 2022, 08:33:29 PM
Explain it to me like I'm 5. I'm happy to learn because clearly my interpretation is wrong.
The five year old explanation is that its impossible to explain it because the formula isn't available.
However, based on what is known about NET, it can be said that the larger the data pool, the smaller effect that one singular data point can have. This is why comparing games multiple weeks apart is not an apples to apples comparison. A game in January accounts for a larger portion of the overall schedule (at the time) than a game in February. Had NET been released at the time, our drop post St. Bonnies would have been even larger because it was not only a 16 point loss, but 1/6th of our total sample size.
Another misconception is that the distances between the rankings are all equal, they are not. We currently have the 32nd best equation to the NET formula (the formula which is, again, unknown). The margin between the 31st team, and the 33rd is unknown. This is why you can have impressive results that don't always equal a large increase in NET, as well is unimpressive results that may not account for a large decrease. This is why losing games by less than you were expected to (like @PC) can have an increase in NET, as well as, winning games by less than you were supposed to (like Gtown) can cause your NET to drop.
Efficiency is key. If you lose, you want to lose as efficiently as possible (close game). If you win, you want to win as efficiently as possible (blow out). We had an opportunity for a blow out that would have almost surely improved our NET, and instead we had an inefficient finish to the game which resulted in a decrease in NET, despite the win. It's impossible to know how much it effected our overall NET, but considering the scoring swing, as well as the poor opponent we were playing, it's fair to say that for a data point this late in the season, the last 12 minutes had a significant impact.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 18, 2022, 08:49:16 PM
The five year old explanation is that its impossible to explain it because the formula isn't available.
However, based on what is known about NET, it can be said that the larger the data pool, the smaller effect that one singular data point can have. This is why comparing games multiple weeks apart is not an apples to apples comparison. A game in January accounts for a larger portion of the overall schedule (at the time) than a game in February. Had NET been released at the time, our drop post St. Bonnies would have been even larger because it was not only a 16 point loss, but 1/6th of our total sample size.
Another misconception is that the distances between the rankings are all equal, they are not. We currently have the 32nd best equation to the NET formula (the formula which is, again, unknown). The margin between the 31st team, and the 33rd is unknown. This is why you can have impressive results that don't always equal a large increase in NET, as well is unimpressive results that may not account for a large decrease. This is why losing games by less than you were expected to (like @PC) can have an increase in NET, as well as, winning games by less than you were supposed to (like Gtown) can cause your NET to drop.
Efficiency is key. If you lose, you want to lose as efficiently as possible (close game). If you win, you want to win as efficiently as possible (blow out). We had an opportunity for a blow out that would have almost surely improved our NET, and instead we had an inefficient finish to the game which resulted in a decrease in NET, despite the win. It's impossible to know how much it effected our overall NET, but considering the scoring swing, as well as the poor opponent we were playing, it's fair to say that for a data point this late in the season, the last 12 minutes had a significant impact.
thanks - So because there are more data points available after our Georgetown victory, the change would be even less than the movement of PC UCONN and seton hall?
Quote from: panda on February 18, 2022, 09:02:57 PM
thanks - So because there are more data points available after our Georgetown victory, the change would be even less than the movement of PC UCONN and seton hall?
Not necessarily. Sample size is a factor yes, but not the only one.
Efficiently rules all as far as NET is concerned. Considering we both won the game and dropped in NET, it's fair to say that the 15 point swing was significant.
Impossible to say how significant, it could have just been that the teams right behind us were just a hair behind us as far as the actual number that NET spits out, but significant nonetheless.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 18, 2022, 07:57:44 PM
As soon as you provide the example of this actually happening, you'll have a point. Until then, you're just defending a bad decision.
I don't get why some people get so defensive when it comes to defending Shaka. He makes mistakes. He's human. It's fine. This is the exact kind of behavior that people declared as being ProJo, yet apparently now it's back en vogue and coach is infallible.
The point is - you play to win the game. You win the game in front of you - nothing else matters. Can keep that philosophy all the way to a Final Four or National Championship.
And you bet your sweet ass I'm gonna be the most insufferable Pro Shaka person (whatever the term is now) on this board and possibly in the entire world. Wojo sucked, Shaka is good (and in record time) - I would like to twist that knife for former Projos as much as humanly possible.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 18, 2022, 10:58:10 PM
The point is - you play to win the game. You win the game in front of you - nothing else matters. Can keep that philosophy all the way to a Final Four or National Championship.
And you bet your sweet ass I'm gonna be the most insufferable Pro Shaka person (whatever the term is now) on this board and possibly in the entire world. Wojo sucked, Shaka is good (and in record time) - I would like to twist that knife for former Projos as much as humanly possible.
Except the problem is our seeding could be adversely impacted which could make winning as many games as we'd like more difficult. So unfortunately, by how much you win the game DOES matter, no matter how much you whine that it doesn't.
Quote from: panda on February 18, 2022, 09:02:57 PM
thanks - So because there are more data points available after our Georgetown victory, the change would be even less than the movement of PC UCONN and seton hall?
It's really not that easy to quantify. Kenpom, for example, is based on Adjusted Efficiency Margin, which is the difference between your adjusted offensive and defensive ratings.
Before Butler, we were at +16.75, which was 24th overall. We lost and fell to +15.86, 32nd. Then we beat Georgetown but because of the margin fell to +15.44, 39th.
We lost +1.31 in adjusted efficiency in 2 games, but had we flipped those results by equally positive scores and gone to +19.06, we would've only gone up to 19th, because there are bigger gaps in the top-20. For instance, climbing from 39 to 23 requires an improvement of +1.79 in AdjEM, but climbing from 15 to 14 requires an improvement of +1.91. It's why giving any definitive rank jumps are difficult, particularly once you get into the top-20. But because of that narrow gap from 39-23, we can move between there comparatively easily.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 18, 2022, 09:29:27 PM
Not necessarily. Sample size is a factor yes, but not the only one.
Efficiently rules all as far as NET is concerned. Considering we both won the game and dropped in NET, it's fair to say that the 15 point swing was significant.
Impossible to say how significant, it could have just been that the teams right behind us were just a hair behind us as far as the actual number that NET spits out, but significant nonetheless.
Understood - given the unknown and most likely small impact, Shaka probably made the correct basketball decision. And in the grand scheme of things will most likely help the overall goal of the team.
How correlated is net rank to seeding?
Quote from: Boston Warrior on February 19, 2022, 06:29:54 AM
How correlated is net rank to seeding?
This guy!
Very correlated.
Find the NET rankings online today and check out the reveal.
Speaking of, what time is that?
Quote from: Boston Warrior on February 19, 2022, 06:29:54 AM
How correlated is net rank to seeding?
It's a decent analogue, but the best comparison is the average between the resume averages and quality averages on the team sheet. Teams land within a seed line of that average about 85% of the time.
For instance, Marquette has the following ranks currently:
Resume -- KPI 21, SOR 29,
Average 25Quality -- BPI 45, Kenpom 33, Sagarin 36,
Average 38The average of those two numbers is 31.5, which means Marquette would typically be on the edge of the 8 (teams 29-32) and 9 (teams 33-36) lines. Marquette is generally being seeded about a line or two higher than that because of our volume of Q1 wins.
Before Georgetown, that average was 25.6, which would usually be around the 6 (teams 21-24) and 7 (teams 25-28) lines.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 18, 2022, 09:29:27 PM
Not necessarily. Sample size is a factor yes, but not the only one.
Efficiently rules all as far as NET is concerned. Considering we both won the game and dropped in NET, it's fair to say that the 15 point swing was significant.
Impossible to say how significant, it could have just been that the teams right behind us were just a hair behind us as far as the actual number that NET spits out, but significant nonetheless.
The NET is pretty flawed. Look at Iowa for example. 0-6 in Q1 with 8 losses overall and their NET is 21. How is that possible? Because they won their 8 buy games by an average of about 30 this year. Drop that average to 15 and they are probably on the outside looking in at this point. All because of how bad they beat up on inferior opponents.
Quote from: panda on February 19, 2022, 06:12:24 AM
Understood - given the unknown and most likely small impact, Shaka probably made the correct basketball decision. And in the grand scheme of things will most likely help the overall goal of the team.
Grand scheme of things will it make a large difference, probably not. Missed opportunity would probably be the words I would describe it as, when you have the chance to step on a teams throat and kick them when they're down you have to take it. In approximately 1/35 of our pre ncaa tourney net calculations, we didn't seize that chance. Guess that just means we'll have to blow out Creighton.
Quote from: CountryRoads on February 19, 2022, 06:42:26 AM
The NET is pretty flawed. Look at Iowa for example. 0-6 in Q1 with 8 losses overall and their NET is 21. How is that possible? Because they won their 8 buy games by an average of about 30 this year. Drop that average to 15 and they are probably on the outside looking in at this point. All because of how bad they beat up on inferior opponents.
Flawed yes, I haven't seen anyone say it's perfect. Significant improvement over previously used metrics, also yes.
No algorithm is perfect, this one is better than ones previously used.
Scholl better call Shaka into his office for a reprimanding from Brewcity77 for his horrendous coaching that has landed him on the Naismith Coach of the Year Watchlist.
Scoop is filled with absurd takes, but whining about Shaka's coaching in the Georgetown game is among the most absurd.
1 seed line in the NCAA isn't going to decide if MU wins its first round game. Matchups are everything in the NCAA tournament. If we get a 6 seed playing an 11 with physical big men, strong on the boards, that won't be a good matchup. If we get an 8 seed with a matchup against a 9 that is weak on the boards and more perimeter oriented, that would likely yield a better probability for a win.
This season has been a massive success and energized the fanbase that was relegated to apathy after 7 years of the underachieving meathead. Enjoy this and chill the fug out about the NET.
Elon
Half of these folks thought Shaka put together a NIT bubble team and now are criticizing coaching moves, which makes me laugh. I would recommend that most on here should just be thanking Shaka for a great season and enjoy the run. I want this season to keep rolling along, but I am perfectly fine with Shaka mixing things up, regardless of what it does to their seeding.
Goose, I am relaxed and enjoying the ride. But it appears to me that these are the same criticisms that would have been made about previous coaches in similar situations. As it should be.
Quote from: Goose on February 19, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
Elon
Half of these folks thought Shaka put together a NIT bubble team and now are criticizing coaching moves, which makes me laugh. I would recommend that most on here should just be thanking Shaka for a great season and enjoy the run. I want this season to keep rolling along, but I am perfectly fine with Shaka mixing things up, regardless of what it does to their seeding.
You realize thanking Shaka and being thrilled at what's he's accomplished this year and questioning a decision he made during a game are not mutually exclusive, right?
Tower
We have an experienced HC, not a journeyman assistant or a wet behind the ear's assistant and things have to be looked at differently. I went hard on here about the first Creighton game because I felt Shaka blew it, playing a group of young guys against a bunch of stiffs is not high on my list of things to get upset over. Plus, I believe they climb the seeding ladder beginning tomorrow and not worried about a supposed bracket in mid-February. Win games and those twelve minutes will mean nothing in three weeks.
Vander
If that lineup had performed better, everyone would be doing cartwheels because of their performance. I had zero problem with the lineup, modest problems with performance and major problems watching it.
Quote from: Goose on February 19, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
Elon
Half of these folks thought Shaka put together a NIT bubble team and now are criticizing coaching moves, which makes me laugh. I would recommend that most on here should just be thanking Shaka for a great season and enjoy the run. I want this season to keep rolling along, but I am perfectly fine with Shaka mixing things up, regardless of what it does to their seeding.
Once again Goose...your perspective is right on target.
1) I had this team winning 19 games and being in the tourney mix.
2) Ners, feel free to provide your list of bigger coaching mistakes than dropping 2 seed lines because of poor lineup choices and you have a leg to stand on.
If people think Shaka has made so many coaching mistakes, please share them. I don't think he has, which is why Wednesday's lineup management stands out.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 19, 2022, 08:03:26 AM
1) I had this team winning 19 games and being in the tourney mix.
2) Ners, feel free to provide your list of bigger coaching mistakes than dropping 2 seed lines because of poor lineup choices and you have a leg to stand on.
We could lose the rest of our games from here on out. That would massively affect seeding. You are getting all wound up over a decision made in a game on February 16th.
As for a leg to stand on, I'd think you'd acknowledge that I was the first Scooper to call out Wojo and go 100% bearish on him 10 games in and not relent. That proved to be quite accurate. Shaka is the goods and I don't especially care for you taking him to task over such a trivial event as getting young guys run in a game to see how they fare together.
Guess what? Shaka learned something from seeing that lineup play together. Not an option...even if for just a few minutes. That could be helpful as we approach Tournament play and trying to buy rest in the event you end up making a run in the Big East tournament, and/or NCAA.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on February 19, 2022, 08:13:47 AMShaka is the goods and I don't especially care for you taking him to task over such a trivial event as getting young guys run in a game to see how they fare together.
You are trying assert something that isn't the case. Personally, I think Shaka has done very well and hasn't made many big mistakes. That's why Wednesday stands out.
If you believe he has a number of bigger mistakes, then share those mistakes. If you really think "Shaka is the goods" you should be agreeing with me.
The points made by Brew, Goose and Ners all are valid. Both are true. Personally, it's a great discussion and problem.
I'm not concerned about the coaching in the G'Town game but understand Brew's larger point. His concern is how it will hurt seeding and it does!
Goose is correct about Shaka's performance this year, too. It's been great. It's all part of a larger puzzle.
Tomorrow is a new day and we'll see what happens. If they win, that's a feather in the cap of Shaka and mitigates some of Brew's seeding concerns. If they lose, the seeding slide Brew is concerned with gets worse.
Quote from: Goose on February 19, 2022, 07:59:55 AM
Tower
We have an experienced HC, not a journeyman assistant or a wet behind the ear's assistant and things have to be looked at differently. I went hard on here about the first Creighton game because I felt Shaka blew it, playing a group of young guys against a bunch of stiffs is not high on my list of things to get upset over. Plus, I believe they climb the seeding ladder beginning tomorrow and not worried about a supposed bracket in mid-February. Win games and those twelve minutes will mean nothing in three weeks.
Vander
If that lineup had performed better, everyone would be doing cartwheels because of their performance. I had zero problem with the lineup, modest problems with performance and major problems watching it.
In the long run, it'll be forgotten, obviously. My point is now that we have a competent coach who has wildly exceeded most people's expectations in year 1, fairly questioning a decision that could have a tangible negative impact shouldn't be a bad thing.
I don't have an issue that you think this topic is overblown. You could very well be right. But it could also drop us a seed line or two. Yes, that tourney is all about matchups. Maybe that doesn't bite us in round 1 but it could in round 2.
It's fine to agree to disagree on the topic and I know it's the nature of a message board, but some of the reactions to it have been so over the top in the other direction that it's laughable.
Quote from: Goose on February 19, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
Half of these folks thought Shaka put together a NIT bubble team and now are criticizing coaching moves.
+1
Quote from: tower912 on February 19, 2022, 07:48:59 AM
Goose, I am relaxed and enjoying the ride. But it appears to me that these are the same criticisms that would have been made about previous coaches in similar situations. As it should be.
One coach was horrible at his job and constantly fell short of the standard. The other coach is exceeding expectations, perhaps wildly, and bringing the program back to national prominence.
Therefore one coach gets the benefit of the doubt and the other does not. Follow?
I analyze them the same. The same way I did Crean, the same way I did Buzz. Follow?
Shaka actually is held to a different standard as the NET wasn't always a thing. Once upon a time, a 13 point win was good enough. Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.
Quote from: tower912 on February 19, 2022, 09:07:11 AMLetting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.
This, and when the coach has generally put the right foot forward all year long, the minor annoyances stand out more because there aren't a large number of significant mistakes to compare it to.
Quote from: tower912 on February 19, 2022, 09:07:11 AM
I analyze them the same. The same way I did Crean, the same way I did Buzz. Follow?
Shaka actually is held to a different standard as the NET wasn't always a thing. Once upon a time, a 13 point win was good enough. Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.
You're still not getting it, as usual.
Shaka's track record thus far shows that he is a quantifiably good coach. Therefore the decisions he makes, so long as they don't directly lose us a game, shouldn't be criticized by Daryl Morey wannabes.
Wojo's track record shows that he was a quantifiably bad coach. Therefore the decisions he made, were open for criticism at any moment until he could prove otherwise.
Quote from: tower912 on February 19, 2022, 09:07:11 AMLetting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.
Minor annoyance I can allow. But the gnashing of teeth over this doesn't seem to qualify under minor annoyance.
Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the strategy will pay future dividends that can't be quantified?
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 19, 2022, 06:45:02 AM
Grand scheme of things will it make a large difference, probably not. Missed opportunity would probably be the words I would describe it as, when you have the chance to step on a teams throat and kick them when they're down you have to take it. In approximately 1/35 of our pre ncaa tourney net calculations, we didn't seize that chance. Guess that just means we'll have to blow out Creighton.
I do think there is a significant human element involved that is disregarded by some of you.
Shaka has talked about his players taking ownership in the program and on the court strategy. We saw that play out against Georgetown. I think there's also an element as I said, to giving playing time to younger guys to keep morale up, work out different game situations and lineups to prepare for future games/post season.
I believe the human element of this scenario is far more important than potentially, hopefully winning by a mystery amount to possibly, maybe moving up an unspecified amount of places.
But I do agree, missed opportunity is a much more apt description than biggest coaching mistake of the season.
Yes
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on February 19, 2022, 09:13:47 AM
You're still not getting it, as usual.
Shaka's track record thus far shows that he is a quantifiably good coach. Therefore the decisions he makes, so long as they don't directly lose us a game, shouldn't be criticized by Daryl Morey wannabes.
Wojo's track record shows that he was a quantifiably bad coach. Therefore the decisions he made, were open for criticism at any moment until he could prove otherwise.
Dude, you still don't get it. I prefer Shaka. I am enjoying the heck out of this season.
Compare Shaka's record at Texas to Wojo's record. The same criticisms this board levelled at Wojo were directed at Shaka there.
I criticized Crean. I criticized Buzz. I criticized Wojo. I can't remember criticizing Shaka so far. I defended the Creighton end game decision. I couldn't care less about only winning by 13. I don't bet and I don't obsess about the NET.
Quote from: tower912 on February 19, 2022, 09:07:11 AM
I analyze them the same. The same way I did Crean, the same way I did Buzz. Follow?
Shaka actually is held to a different standard as the NET wasn't always a thing. Once upon a time, a 13 point win was good enough. Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.
So what Im understanding is if we would have been up ~8 points the majority of the game.........extended the lead late and won by 13 we would have been in a better position in the NET than going up by 26, playing younger inexperienced players and winning by 13. It seems all 13 point wins are not the same. Is that true?
PS—Brew clarified this in another thread.
My point is if net rankings were everything, Marquette would be the last 8 seed today at 32. Bpi or espn would have us 12 seed or bubble. The lead that squandered at Georgetown is unfortunate but is understood at the committee level. Most folks have us between 5 and 7, so better than the net.
Beat creighton and finish strong!
I think there is plenty of room for a middle ground between the extremes of coaching to metrics and not paying attention to metrics at all.
In this day and age, you need a coach who understands metrics including how NET ratings are important for NCAA tournament selection and seeding. While Ners is right that match-ups matter, your path to success in the NCAAs is easier the higher your seed. So yeah, on average your seed line matters. Does anyone really think this isn't important? This doesn't make anyone Daryl Morey wannabees or some such nonsense.
That being said, not every coaching decision is about metrics. I have no idea what Shaka's motivations were when he made the lineup decision he did. Was he rewarding effort in practice? Was he upset about the starting line up's effort? Most importantly, knowing what he knows now, would he make the same decision?
I think its important to say that, while metrics are of course important, not every decision is based on them. There are subjective, emotional decisions that need to be made when coaching a team too.
Georgetown jumped from 213 to 197 when they were blown out by double digits by MU. Up next is Nova, DePaul, UCONN, Seton Hall and Xavier. Because of their cupcake OOC schedule and the long COVID layoff, Georgetown will continue to rise in the rankings as their SOS will mathematically improve despite losing all five. Win one, and even better (add in the BET). Net, NET, MU's bad double digit win adjusted efficiency margin coaching error will wind up be inconsequential.
That loss to Butler on the other hand...
Team larg lead win margin delta
GT. 26. 11. -15
SH. 21. 10. -11
DeP. 19. 11. -8
——————————————————
Larg deficit loss marg
Crei. 17. 0 (-6 ). +17
But. 21. 6. +15
Ucla. 23. 11. +12
Bonn. 27. 16. +11
Uw. 23. 13. +10.
With a lot of focus on the effect of not maintaining a 26 point lead v GT i went back and looked at other games this season.
We have given up big leads as well as fought back from large deficits. Is UCLAscoop complaining that they should have beaten us by 25+?
The Bonnies might be thinking how didnt we win this one by 30??
Its CBB.
It's almost as if basketball is a game of runs, and making shots matters.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 19, 2022, 11:50:32 AM
It's almost as if basketball is a game of runs, and making shots matters.
Shhh.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 19, 2022, 11:39:03 AM
Team larg lead win margin delta
GT. 26. 11. -15
JKST. 32. 19. -13
SH. 21. 10. -11
DeP. 19. 11. -8
——————————————————
Larg deficit loss marg
But. 21. 6. +15
Crei. 17. 6 +13 (2OT)
Ucla. 23. 11. +12
Bonn. 27. 16. +11
Uw. 23. 13. +10.
With a lot of focus on the effect of not maintaining a 26 point lead v GT i went back and looked at other games this season.
We give up big leads as well as fight back from large deficits. Is UCLAscoop complaining that they should have beaten us by 25+?
The Bonnies might be thinking how didnt we win this one by 30??
We were up 32 points on Jax St and only won by 19. Why didnt we keep the throttle down and extend that lead to 40?
Its CBB.
Except the point of discussion around the Georgetown game is the lineup that was used for an extended period of time. I don't recall that being an issue in any of those other examples.
Without looking im quite sure our starters werent in the game to continue to extend our 32 point lead over Jax St. That was a big lead that we gave up....similar to GT.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 19, 2022, 12:06:24 PM
Without looking im quite sure our starters werent in the game to continue to extend our 32 point lead over Jax St. That was a big lead that we gave up....similar to GT.
Except that's not how it happened.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game/_/gameId/401372003
Stevie played 20 in jxst, 12 v. GT
EE 12 v jax, 2 v GT
Jop 11 v jax, 8 v GT
Walkons played in jax game.
There are alot of different ways to not maintain a ~30 point lead for 12+ minutes.
Because we were up by 26 points with 12 min remaining doesn't mean we would have maintained that margin of victory, regardless of who was playing.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 19, 2022, 08:03:26 AM
2) Ners, feel free to provide your list of bigger coaching mistakes than dropping 2 seed lines because of poor lineup choices and you have a leg to stand on.
Duh - getting killed by Kansas State in a closed scrimmage.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 19, 2022, 11:39:03 AM
Team larg lead win margin delta
GT. 26. 11. -15
JKST. 32. 19. -13
Might want to check that math on JSU.
Quote from: Goose on February 19, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
Half of these folks thought Shaka put together a NIT bubble team and now are criticizing coaching moves, which makes me laugh.
Goose, you directly blamed Shaka for the Creighton loss and, if I recall correctly, you also were not happy with his coaching in the first UConn loss. You consider Shaka this program's savior, but you were nonetheless criticizing coaching moves. Does that make you laugh, too?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on February 19, 2022, 07:34:36 AM
Scoop is filled with absurd takes, but whining about Shaka's coaching in the Georgetown game is among the most absurd.
Remember when one Scooper made probably 200 posts relentlessly criticizing a Marquette coach for a perfectly executed last-second play that let us inexplicably beat Creighton in 2019? IIRC, that Scooper's repeated screaming of his absurd take ended up contributing to him receiving a year-long Scoopcation. Good times!
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 19, 2022, 01:13:33 PM
Might want to check that math on JSU.
Whoops-My 3rd grade math teacher would be disappointed.
Shaka gave a ton of time to the frosh in that game, and they maintained the lead (actually increased it). Based upon this outing, Shaka may have thought they could maintain the GT lead.
Quote from: MU82 on February 19, 2022, 01:35:50 PM
Goose, you directly blamed Shaka for the Creighton loss and, if I recall correctly, you also were not happy with his coaching in the first UConn loss. You consider Shaka this program's savior, but you were nonetheless criticizing coaching moves. Does that make you laugh, too?
Remember when one Scooper made probably 200 posts relentlessly criticizing a Marquette coach for a perfectly executed last-second play that let us inexplicably beat Creighton in 2019? IIRC, that Scooper's repeated screaming of his absurd take ended up contributing to him receiving a year-long Scoopcation. Good times!
I do!! Are you referring to Wojo's brilliant decision to have Markus Howard inbound the ball with 1 second left and Sam Hauser hitting a 27 foot fade away 3 in which none of the action of the play freed Sam for a good look? What's absurd is those of you who argued it was good coaching. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion. That was a classic example of the ProJo's being sooo dug-in that they couldn't acknowledge it was idiotic to take your most lethal weapon out of the play and making him the inbounder. I mean executing that inbounds pass was easy and something any high major guard/forward could do with ease.
As for being banned multiple times for not relenting on Wojo's god-awful coaching? I'm not embarrassed about that in the least. Those of you who were prolific Wojo defenders and pleaded to the mods for me to be banned? Well, personally I'd be embarrassed if I were on that side of the debate - and for pleading to the mods to ban a poster who ultimately was right on target with his early analysis that Wojo didn't have "it."
Thanks for bringing something from 2019 into the mix though..this is how threads devolve into Wojo discussion. Good times!
Quote from: Elonsmusk on February 19, 2022, 10:22:47 PM
I do!! Are you referring to Wojo's brilliant decision to have Markus Howard inbound the ball with 1 second left and Sam Hauser hitting a 27 foot fade away 3 in which none of the action of the play freed Sam for a good look? What's absurd is those of you who argued it was good coaching. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion. That was a classic example of the ProJo's being sooo dug-in that they couldn't acknowledge it was idiotic to take your most lethal weapon out of the play and making him the inbounder. I mean executing that inbounds pass was easy and something any high major guard/forward could do with ease.
As for being banned multiple times for not relenting on Wojo's god-awful coaching? I'm not embarrassed about that in the least. Those of you who were prolific Wojo defenders and pleaded to the mods for me to be banned? Well, personally I'd be embarrassed if I were on that side of the debate - and for pleading to the mods to ban a poster who ultimately was right on target with his early analysis that Wojo didn't have "it."
Thanks for bringing something from 2019 into the mix though..this is how threads devolve into Wojo discussion. Good times!
You were wrong then; you're wrong now.
And while we're on absurd Ners takes ...
Dawson > Rowsey. Preach!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 19, 2022, 10:55:35 AM
Georgetown jumped from 213 to 197 when they were blown out by double digits by MU. Up next is Nova, DePaul, UCONN, Seton Hall and Xavier. Because of their cupcake OOC schedule and the long COVID layoff, Georgetown will continue to rise in the rankings as their SOS will mathematically improve despite losing all five. Win one, and even better (add in the BET). Net, NET, MU's bad double digit win adjusted efficiency margin coaching error will wind up be inconsequential.
That loss to Butler on the other hand...
Georgetown loses badly to Nova. Moves up to 190. Idle MU moves up back to 35. Pearl Clutching Sidewalks in a lather.
82
I was pissed at Shaka at the first UConn game and Creighton game, happens to be games we lost. The lineup against Georgetown did not cause the team to lose the game. I am sure Shaka will piss me off many times over this career at MU, but winning a game by 11 will not be one of those moments.
Quote from: Goose on February 20, 2022, 01:51:44 AM
82
I was pissed at Shaka at the first UConn game and Creighton game, happens to be games we lost. The lineup against Georgetown did not cause the team to lose the game. I am sure Shaka will piss me off many times over this career at MU, but winning a game by 11 will not be one of those moments.
RPI doesn't matter anymore. NET is the metric and style points absolutely matter.
Quote from: Goose on February 20, 2022, 01:51:44 AM
82
I was pissed at Shaka at the first UConn game and Creighton game, happens to be games we lost. The lineup against Georgetown did not cause the team to lose the game. I am sure Shaka will piss me off many times over this career at MU, but winning a game by 11 will not be one of those moments.
Goose, what often happens with these kinds of debates is that those with different viewpoints dig in, and it appears that there are extremes at play.
Again, I am not "outraged" by anything Shaka did. I don't think it was "terrible" or it "cost us huge" or any of the extreme language others are trying to attach to it.
What I've articulated here is a minor nitpick. I'm guessing that you have a few of those as you watch a Marquette game, even those we win, regardless of who the coach is. I think you'll agree that saying to oneself,
"Well, that inbounds play wasn't good" is not the same as saying,
"I hate the coach, he's such an idiot."I want the same thing you do -- for Marquette to have as good a season as possible, including a nice NCAA tournament run. I believe that being seeded higher would increase the odds of that happening, and based on the way Shaka has coached most of the time he seems to believe it too.
I happen to think that Shaka's decision to keep 4 relative newbies on the court together for an extended period wasn't a good one and that what resulted might contribute to us falling by a seed. You apparently disagree, and that's cool.
It's almost time to crush Creighton. We Are Marquette!
82
Other than finding that lineup and stretch of play hard to watch, I only cared they won the game. If others find it reason to be upset, really do not care and happy to see the program has made that progress in a short period of team that this is a concern for some folks.
Quote from: MU82 on February 19, 2022, 10:27:53 PM
You were wrong then; you're wrong now.
And while we're on absurd Ners takes ...
Dawson > Rowsey. Preach!
Rowsey was better than Dawson offensively. A sieve defensively, not a Big East body. So like in all things Wojo era offense trumped any semblance of physical defense. But, ultimately Rowsey was a better player so I was wrong.
You thinking Wojo was the goods for roughly 6 years and the play call at Creighton was good coaching is laughable. I've said a number of times you have good basketball insights/in-game analysis. Your optimism on Wojo and that out of bounds play at Creighton weren't two of them. 8-)