Kolek is proving to be an A-10 quality guard, he needs to sit more and we develop other guards. Cannot build a team around Kolek. I cannot believe that Smart's play call off the timeout late in the game was for Kolek to take a a wild three.
Tough to win at Xavier. We held our own...
I take it you didn't watch this game at all.
We struggled quite a bit when he was off the court.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on December 18, 2021, 05:31:18 PM
I take it you didn't watch this game at all.
Yep. If he avoids foul trouble they could have stolen one. Offense bogs down without him.
I watched the game, so will the Big East teams. Let's see how Kolek is when the Big East teams watch the videos. Love his attitude, but his ability is midland.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:33:56 PM
I watched the game, so will the Big East teams. Let's see how Kolek is when the Big East teams watch the videos. Love his attitude, but his ability is midland.
So you think Xavier just ignored tape on MU going into today?
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:33:56 PM
I watched the game, so will the Big East teams. Let's see how Kolek is when the Big East teams watch the videos. Love his attitude, but his ability is midland.
I prefer east coast ability
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:33:56 PM
I watched the game, so will the Big East teams. Let's see how Kolek is when the Big East teams watch the videos. Love his attitude, but his ability is midland.
Overall, Kolek probably is just a mid-major talent and should never be allowed to shoot the ball.
But, unfortunately, he's the best (by far) at PG and MU needs him in the game (not shooting) to win.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:30:42 PM
Kolek is proving to be an A-10 quality guard, he needs to sit more and we develop other guards. Cannot build a team around Kolek. I cannot believe that Smart's play call off the timeout late in the game was for Kolek to take a a wild three.
Tough to win at Xavier. We held our own...
I've read some dumb things here. This ranks among the dumbest.
Mitchell and Morsell, try playing point but do not have the instinct as a point guard. Kolek will be the man this year, can not wait for Sean Jones as his backup or maybe beat him out.
X plainly did.
This is quite a poor thread topic. I can't disagree more.
Agree, NoLonger... the fact he is the best we can put out there now does not change the fact he is mid-major player.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:40:59 PM
Agree, NoLonger... the fact he is the best we can put out there now does not change the fact he is mid-major player.
If you agree with NoLonger you should probably reassess your basketball knowledge.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:40:59 PM
Agree, NoLonger... the fact he is the best we can put out there now does not change the fact he is mid-major player.
Kinda just sealed your fate here
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:40:59 PM
Agree, NoLonger... the fact he is the best we can put out there now does not change the fact he is mid-major player.
Trojan is nolonger.
Fluff and PG,
Ad hominem arguments... my request? let's see what March looks like... again, love the kid's attitude, but his talent is midland.
Kolek is going to be a stud. I was glad to see him make some shots. As he gets more comfortable he will score more. The team struggles mightily without him. Tough to win on the road anywhere Xavier is a tough place.
Quote from: fjm on December 18, 2021, 05:47:55 PM
Trojan is nolonger.
Nope.
It's always hilarious here when someone agrees with an unpopular poster and is immediately accused (with no evidence) of being that particular guy, lol. Happens over and over again.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:40:59 PM
Agree, NoLonger... the fact he is the best we can put out there now does not change the fact he is mid-major player.
Looks like NoLonger created another account.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:48:58 PM
Fluff and PG,
Ad hominem arguments... my request? let's see what March looks like... again, love the kid's attitude, but his talent is midland.
He's the best PG at MU since Dominic James. His first year running PG in college as he primarily played off the ball at George Mason.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:30:42 PM
Kolek is proving to be an A-10 quality guard, he needs to sit more and we develop other guards. Cannot build a team around Kolek. I cannot believe that Smart's play call off the timeout late in the game was for Kolek to take a a wild three.
Tough to win at Xavier. We held our own...
just too bad Racine product Tyresse Hunter signed w/Iowa State. He's doing well there, and would look great here at the pg. Kolek makes some plays, and plays hard, but not a 30-min/per guy. Thought Mitchell might be better coming in.
8 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds against Number 22 team in the country on the road in 22 minutes. He played well, while he was in the game. Got hit with a couple of tick tack fouls, one of which 100% was a charge on the X player.
Quote from: Viper on December 18, 2021, 05:54:34 PM
just too bad Racine product Tyresse Hunter signed w/Iowa State. He's doing well there, and would look great here at the pg. Kolek makes some plays, and plays hard, but not a 30-min/per guy. Thought Mitchell might be better coming in.
Hunter was given the chance to sign with MU, they told him that Mitchell was ready to commit, they gave him an opportunity first. He decided to slow play them, even gave him a chance after Mitchell committed. He would have started at either school, so I am sure in his mind he made the right decision.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 18, 2021, 06:19:35 PM
Hunter was given the chance to sign with MU, they told him that Mitchell was ready to commit, they gave him an opportunity first. He decided to slow play them, even gave him a chance after Mitchell committed. He would have started at either school, so I am sure in his mind he made the right decision.
He committed to ISU before Michell committed to MU.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 05:48:58 PM
Fluff and PG,
Ad hominem arguments... my request? let's see what March looks like... again, love the kid's attitude, but his talent is midland.
MU was clearly better when he was playing today. Sorry you couldn't see that.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 18, 2021, 06:00:10 PM
8 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds against Number 22 team in the country on the road in 22 minutes. He played well, while he was in the game. Got hit with a couple of tick tack fouls, one of which 100% was a charge on the X player.
No.
Kolek WAS set - but you have to give the offensive player room to land when he goes in the air to catch a pass. It was a good call.
I am sorry you miss the argument. The fact that MU played better with him out there is inapposite to my point. We may have played better; he is still a mid-major talent, playing way above his level. The fact we have no one else for PG simply makes Kolek the tallest leprechaun. Again, let's pick up the discussion again in March... I will admit to you that I am wrong on the board, will you if my perspective pans out?
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 06:40:54 PM
I am sorry you miss the argument. The fact that MU played better with him out there is inapposite to my point.
😂😂😂😂
You never went to law school, or took rhetoric, that I see.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 06:32:10 PM
He committed to ISU before Michell committed to MU.
Reread what BC said.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 06:32:10 PM
He committed to ISU before Michell committed to MU.
The timelines for making the commitments are different than the timelines of the announcements.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on December 18, 2021, 07:21:34 PM
The timelines for making the commitments are different than the timelines of the announcements.
Gotcha
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:05:58 PM
You never went to law school, or took rhetoric, that I see.
Good lord why would I do either?
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:05:58 PM
You never went to law school, or took rhetoric, that I see.
OOOHHH! We've got a braggadocious one on our hands!
Quote from: BLM on December 18, 2021, 05:33:24 PM
We struggled quite a bit when he was off the court.
Which is more an indictment of everyone else.
Kolek is a solid facilitator/distributor and defensively. He's not Travis Diener Part II and those here who labeled him as such are doing him a disservice.
Fluff,
Um, you quote Darrow in your signature. You watch from the sidelines, I get it. Are you really an MU grad? Wow, when did they start waiving the SATs?
Pakuni, you nailed it. Thank you, Sir.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:34:47 PM
Fluff,
Um, you quote Darrow in your signature. You watch from the sidelines, I get it. Are you really an MU grad? Wow, when did they start waiving the SATs?
Oh boy.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:34:47 PM
Fluff,
Um, you quote Darrow in your signature. You watch from the sidelines, I get it. Are you really an MU grad? Wow, when did they start waiving the SATs?
Give it up. You are gonna lose a lot of arguments here. I know who I'll take everytime it's you vs Fluff.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 18, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
Which is more an indictment of everyone else.
Kolek is a solid facilitator/distributor and defensively. He's not Travis Diener Part II and those here who labeled him as such are doing him a disservice.
How many legit made that comparison?
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Pakuni, you nailed it. Thank you, Sir.
??? He said he is "solid." You said he is A10 quality. Those aren't the same bud.
See you in March... after the BE coaches watch the tapes.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:47:29 PM
See you in March... after the BE coaches watch the tapes.
Bye bye!!!
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:05:58 PM
You never went to law school, or took rhetoric, that I see.
I will lay a huge amount of money on the fact that you were the "gunner" in your law school class...
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
How many legit made that comparison?
Here's a few.
"Kolek needs to play 40 minutes a game at point. The new diener."
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62319.msg1382074#msg1382074
"Kolek reminds me the of the old Travis Diener days"
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62457.msg1387577#msg1387577
"He definitely has some Diener in him, both in game and in mindset/demeanor on the court."
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62442.msg1387245#msg1387245
Yeah none except the first said he was Travis Diener. Nice try though.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 08:58:49 PM
Yeah none except the first said he was Travis Diener. Nice try though.
You're being pedantic, but whatever.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 18, 2021, 09:03:36 PM
You're being pedantic, but whatever.
Fluff needs a hug tonight. Lets give him one.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 18, 2021, 09:03:36 PM
You're being pedantic, but whatever.
Yes I am. People didn't claim he was Travis Diener. One person kinda made that comparison. Others simply said they were similar. But no one did him a disservice. He is what he is.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 09:05:56 PM
Fluff needs a hug tonight. Lets give him one.
I could always use a hug. Who couldn't?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 09:10:32 PM
Yes I am. People didn't claim he was Travis Diener. One person kinda made that comparison. Others simply said they were similar. But no one did him a disservice. He is what he is.
I apologize if you honestly believed I was suggesting that people said Tyler Kolek is the literal embodiment of Travis Diener.
But I don't for a second believe you ever thought that. You're just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
Fun times.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 09:10:32 PM
I could always use a hug. Who couldn't?
I agree. Scoop hug-fest coming to a city near you soon...
Quote from: Pakuni on December 18, 2021, 09:14:30 PM
I apologize if you honestly believed I was suggesting that people said Tyler Kolek is the literal embodiment of Travis Diener.
But I don't for a second believe you ever thought that. You're just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
Fun times.
You were exaggerating and got called on it.
Instead of realizing that and moving on, you decided to double down and get called on it again.
🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 09:33:19 PM
You were exaggerating and got called on it.
Instead of realizing that and moving on, you decided to double down and get called on it again.
🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/webdr02/2013/8/27/12/anigif_enhanced-buzz-28229-1377620439-5.gif)
From what I've seen, Tyler Kolek can absolutely be the primary point guard on a ranked team. And I think most here would agree with that. And I think most here would also be very happy with that in the next couple years. So what exactly are we fighting about?
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1472329432287391744
Quote from: MUDPT on December 18, 2021, 10:04:52 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1472329432287391744
Yep. He's not going to be the primary scorer, but he is definitely a P6 worthy PG.
Quote from: MUDPT on December 18, 2021, 10:04:52 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1472329432287391744
You're really exposing yourself as a basketball no nothing if you can't see the value Kolek brings to this team.
But he can't shoot !
He's leading the BE in assists per game. He is a Big East caliber PG, and he is new to that role.
While he still has places he needs to improve, they are areas he has shown himself capable in the past. I think we still have a good one (already this year), and he can only improve from here.
Those not recognizing his value need to open their eyes.
Quote from: MUDPT on December 18, 2021, 10:04:52 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1472329432287391744
"Outside of crunch time" seems like a weird qualifier.
Quote from: TrojanWarrior on December 18, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Pakuni, you nailed it. Thank you, Sir.
If you think Pakuni agreed with you, you either can't read or you're just being disingenuous.
Or maybe just being a lawyer, and not a very good one.
Quote from: Jockey on December 18, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
Kolek WAS set - but you have to give the offensive player room to land when he goes in the air to catch a pass. It was a good call.
Yep, if that's the play Ners was talking about, he's wrong and you're right. 99 out of 100 refs would call that the exact way it was called, and the other would have missed the call.
Quote from: MU82 on December 18, 2021, 11:16:37 PM
Yep, if that's the play Ners was talking about, he's wrong and you're right. 99 out of 100 refs would call that the exact way it was called, and the other would have missed the call.
The X player caught the ball and was given space to land as Jockey said. He landed, turned and then bowled over Kolek. Thus, Jockey contradicted himself. 99 out of 100? Come on man. That's a 50/50 call at best. But if you want to just argue to argue, which I know you like to do...that's cool.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 19, 2021, 12:07:31 AM
The X player caught the ball and was given space to land as Jockey said. He landed, turned and then bowled over Kolek. Thus, Jockey contradicted himself. 99 out of 100? Come on man. That's a 50/50 call at best. But if you want to just argue to argue, which I know you like to do...that's cool.
I don't think he was given space to land.
I don't think it was a foul. He flopped. And it was a dumb thing to do because he already had two fouls.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 18, 2021, 05:36:40 PM
I've read some dumb things here. This ranks among the dumbest.
Agree, the sole purpose of this thread was to troll.
Quote from: forgetful on December 18, 2021, 10:14:52 PM
He's leading the BE in assists per game. He is a Big East caliber PG, and he is new to that role.
While he still has places he needs to improve, they are areas he has shown himself capable in the past. I think we still have a good one (already this year), and he can only improve from here.
Those not recognizing his value need to open their eyes.
Kolek is very good when he's running the offense and creating shots for his teammates.
He struggles mightily when he tries to create shots for himself (see: team worst eFG% of .341, and team worst TS% of .393).
His focus should be on what he does well.
He had a couple of nice shots in the rhythm of the offense yesterday. Those were nice even if they didn't all go down.
As I said in the post-game thread, his taking a three with little ball movement late was the beginning of the end though.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2021, 07:56:30 AM
Kolek is very good when he's running the offense and creating shots for his teammates.
He struggles mightily when he tries to create shots for himself (see: team worst eFG% of .341, and team worst TS% of .393).
His focus should be on what he does well.
In udder words,a traditional Cadougan, aina?
This is an odd time to start this thread. I know that late three point attempt was dumb but other than that I thought he played a solid game. 57% efg%, 8 points, 7 assists, 2 steals, and 3 turns in 22 minutes is a line I would take most nights.
It is the typical post game zeitgeist.
If Kolek is an A10 level PG we are in big trouble, since 2 of our starters are a level below him.
Kolek's 3 pt shot down 72-69 wasn't a bad shot as some here have suggested. Shaka liked it. He had a good look. Shaka sees him shoot on a daily basis. He'd made two 3's already in the game. His look was a cleaner look than the rushed one Elliott took down 70-69, which I didn't mind that shot either. Can't make em all.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 19, 2021, 10:34:39 AM
Kolek's 3 pt shot down 72-69 wasn't a bad shot as some here have suggested. Shaka liked it. He had a good look. Shaka sees him shoot on a daily basis. He'd made two 3's already in the game. His look was a cleaner look than the rushed one Elliott took down 70-69, which I didn't mind that shot either. Can't make em all.
It was a terrible shot. They had been patient and breaking the defense down, and he took a three point shot off the dribble (definitely not his strength) early in the clock. Elliott had hit multiple shots off the same motion so I was fine with that one.
I like Kolek. I like Shaka for protecting him. But that was a poor choice. It happens.
Kolek reminds me of a midlane Travis Diener
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2021, 10:39:39 AM
It was a terrible shot. They had been patient and breaking the defense down, and he took a three point shot off the dribble (definitely not his strength) early in the clock. Elliott had hit multiple shots off the same motion so I was fine with that one.
I like Kolek. I like Shaka for protecting him. But that was a poor choice. It happens.
Doesn't matter if it was early in the clock. It was a clean look. I'll side with Shaka's opinion of the shot. You are welcome to theorize that Shaka is "protecting him," but that of course is just your opinion.
I was frustrated in the moment, as it felt rushed and I think working for a catch and shoot usually produces better results. But TK had hit a couple already, has hit big shots previously, and wants the ball. So be it. If he hits, he is a hero and everyone is rhapsodizing poetic about him.
Meh, a day later, I am ok with him taking it. His bigger issue was foul trouble, which happens on the road from time to time. I expect him to file it away and let it fuel him.
Seems to Porky Kolek can definitely hold his own on a power conference roster despite his lack of scoring. He's already proven himself to be a highly capable high major conf. starter. If Porky's recollection is accurate, UVA, UCONN, Oklahoma & Penn State were all hot on Kolek's trail so as far as Porky is concerned we're fortunate to have him. Seems a lot of folks are forgetting we were picked to finish 9th in the BE this year. Porky hasn't seen anything from this team to think those pre-season predictions are inaccurate. The BE is stacked this year. People seemed to forget that every year under WOJO we beat some really good teams that we shouldn't have and it still didn't get us anywhere so Porky is pessimistic until this team proves Porky wrong. We'll be back eventually but this is not our year.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 19, 2021, 10:55:49 AM
Kolek reminds me of a midlane Travis Diener
Kolek is no teenage assassin. He will need to up his game big time to be in the same neighborhood. Maybe a rich man's Cudougan.
Quote from: Big Papi on December 19, 2021, 02:07:10 PM
Kolek is no teenage assassin. He will need to up his game big time to be in the same neighborhood. Maybe a rich man's Cudougan.
Rico doesn't believe in teal.
But he does believe that Steve Nash only wishes he had been as good as TK.
He looks to me like a sophomore transfer who's moving up a level.
Not being Travis Diener in the first half of your first season is not a crime.
MU has been through the "PG who cannot shoot" era... it was awful.
Then we had the "PG who only shoots" era... and the team did not win.
The assists, the boards, the D, the +/- all look good. The rest will come.
Quote from: fjm on December 18, 2021, 05:47:55 PM
Trojan is nolonger.
Trojan / Nolonger / Chicos summit
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 19, 2021, 06:08:07 PM
Then we had the "PG who only shoots" era... and the team did not win.
The team averaged 20.5 wins and was in line to receive 3 NCAAT bids in 4 years under the Markus "did not win" era.
Scoop = Troy
Quote from: MU82 on December 20, 2021, 02:09:12 PM
The team averaged 20.5 wins and was in line to receive 3 NCAAT bids in 4 years under the Markus "did not win" era.
Kind of weird that the best player on that team, and one of the best in all of Marquette history, is blamed so much for the Wojo-era failures.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 20, 2021, 02:18:53 PM
Kind of weird that the best player on that team, and one of the best in all of Marquette history, is blamed so much for the Wojo-era failures.
It really is weird. There were some really good times while Markus was here.
The Peg
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 20, 2021, 02:18:53 PM
Kind of weird that the best player on that team, and one of the best in all of Marquette history, is blamed so much for the Wojo-era failures.
He, the Hauser's and Wojo were at the center of the juiciest scandal MU has seen in years. People took sides and some truly disliked Howard after the incident. I still can't believe people blamed the kids and didn't put the onus directly on the head of the program.
Quote from: panda on December 20, 2021, 04:32:15 PM
He, the Hauser's and Wojo were at the center of the juiciest scandal MU has seen in years. People took sides and some truly disliked Howard after the incident. I still can't believe people blamed the kids and didn't put the onus directly on the head of the program.
"Scandal"
Quote from: Nukem2 on December 20, 2021, 06:51:59 PM
Well, yeah. Hard to call it that.
Let's call it a significant controversy.
Hausershima.
Quote from: panda on December 20, 2021, 04:32:15 PM
He, the Hauser's and Wojo were at the center of the juiciest scandal MU has seen in years. People took sides and some truly disliked Howard after the incident. I still can't believe people blamed the kids and didn't put the onus directly on the head of the program.
Never a problem between Sam and Markus until little brother arrived.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 21, 2021, 05:12:42 AM
Never a problem between Sam and Markus until little brother arrived.
And the problems were also never there until Wojo started making special concessions and exceptions to keep Markus happy.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 06:28:53 AM
And the problems were also never there until Wojo started making special concessions and exceptions to keep Markus happy.
If by "concessions and exceptions," you mean that the coach let the All-American scoring machine shoot a lot while still finding enough touches for Sam to average only 0.6 fewer shots per game than he would get as a Virginia fifth-year senior, we mostly agree.
One could argue that the "concessions and exceptions" Wojo made that hurt the program most were not recruiting Herro because he wanted to keep the Hauser family happy; and letting Joey remain in the lineup even after Vanilla Soft Serve hit the wall (or simply became bad at basketball, which is his status to this day under a Hall of Fame coach).
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2021, 07:21:55 AM
If by "concessions and exceptions," you mean that the coach let the All-American scoring machine shoot a lot while still finding enough touches for Sam to average only 0.6 fewer shots per game than he would get as a Virginia fifth-year senior, we mostly agree.
One could argue that the "concessions and exceptions" Wojo made that hurt the program most were not recruiting Herro because he wanted to keep the Hauser family happy; and letting Joey remain in the lineup even after Vanilla Soft Serve hit the wall (or simply became bad at basketball, which is his status to this day under a Hall of Fame coach).
No I mean letting Markus go home during team workouts and Markus repeatedly going off script while he was clearly banged up with no recourse.
Your Herro point really makes my point. Wojo was probably the softest of them all in the situation. He wanted to please everyone and in trying to do so, really pleased no one.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 07:42:00 AM
No I mean letting Markus go home during team workouts and Markus repeatedly going off script while he was clearly banged up with no recourse.
Your Herro point really makes my point. Wojo was probably the softest of them all in the situation. He wanted to please everyone and in trying to do so, really pleased no one.
Because team chemistry means nothing.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 07:42:00 AM
No I mean letting Markus go home during team workouts and Markus repeatedly going off script while he was clearly banged up with no recourse.
Yeah, letting Markus go home over the summer to stay with family and be close to his doctor during a mental breakdown was soft of Wojo.
I blame Scoop for it all
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 07:42:00 AM
No I mean letting Markus go home during team workouts and Markus repeatedly going off script while he was clearly banged up with no recourse.
Your Herro point really makes my point. Wojo was probably the softest of them all in the situation. He wanted to please everyone and in trying to do so, really pleased no one.
If the Hausers were mad that Howard got to go home because he had a mental health crisis and went to be with his family to work on it than f*ck the Hausers and anyone who buys into their crap
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 07:42:00 AM
No I mean letting Markus go home during team workouts and Markus repeatedly going off script while he was clearly banged up with no recourse.
Your Herro point really makes my point. Wojo was probably the softest of them all in the situation. He wanted to please everyone and in trying to do so, really pleased no one.
Had Wojo not made what you call a "concession and exception," it could have severely hurt Markus and, by extension, the team. Markus spoke very openly about his mental health issue, and he needed to be near family. If Wojo pressured Markus into staying in Milwaukee and Markus then had a breakdown (or worse), Wojo would have been guilty of negligence (maybe not legally so, but he would have been). So there's that myth exposed for the umpteenth time; the only reason to keep pushing that false narrative is dislike of Markus and/or Wojo.
As for your Herro point ... if Wojo recruits and lands Herro, the Hausers might defect and Wojo would be criticized. So he decides to keep the Hausers happy, theoretically helping team chemistry, and we use a 20-2 stretch to get into the top 10. Then The Lettermen start singing, and that's Wojo's fault, too.
And you know what ... much (maybe most) IS Wojo's fault because he's the coach and the buck always stops with the coach and ego management is a huge part of his job and that's why coaches get the big bucks. But don't make it sound like dealing with the Hausers was a picnic, as opposed to the way Wojo supposedly made "concessions and exceptions" for an All-American.
Nice to get to discuss this for the 8,553rd time. We were all getting tired of the Kolek debate, anyway.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 21, 2021, 07:48:57 AM
Yeah, letting Markus go home over the summer to stay with family and be close to his doctor during a mental breakdown was soft of Wojo.
Except Wojo didn't frame it as such to the team.
Crean sucks
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:15:03 AM
Except Wojo didn't frame it as such to the team.
Well, how he framed it was a communication problem. (And it wasn't really the team's business to know.) Not a "special concession to keep him happy."
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2021, 08:22:49 AM
Well, how he framed it was a communication problem. (And it wasn't really the team's business to know.) Not a "special concession to keep him happy."
He framed it incorrectly and by doing so, it appeared to the team as if it was a special concession.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:30:16 AM
He framed it incorrectly and by doing so, it appeared to the team as if it was a special concession.
I get that. But you parroted the miscommunication instead of stating what actually happened.
Wojo's fault was roster construction. Based on what he had on the roster, anyone who thinks Markus Howard should not have had the "ultimate green light" isn't paying attention to what Joey Hauser is doing at MSU, or what anyone else on the roster not named Sam Hauser is as a basketball player. Sam was very good. He got plenty of opportunities. Everyone else? Meh. Joey was the third best player...and 3 years later, playing for a Hall of Fame coach, he's still not a good college basketball player.
I do think Wojo relied a little too much on a star system versus an offense that had more movement. But that certainly was not Markus' fault.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:15:03 AM
Except Wojo didn't frame it as such to the team.
Because he would have been in violation of medical privacy laws and would have been fired.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:30:16 AM
He framed it incorrectly and by doing so, it appeared to the team as if it was a special concession.
Look, you're wrong. Just accept it and move on.
And wasn't there like 10 months between when Markus went home and the Hausers left? And didn't Markus open up about the mental health issues a few months before they left?
I mean, if they still viewed it as a "special concession" at that point, then that's on them. (But I don't think that's why they left.)
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 21, 2021, 08:42:15 AM
Because he would have been in violation of medical privacy laws and would have been fired.
Saying he's going through something and needs to be at home isn't a hipaa violation.
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2021, 08:48:56 AM
Look, you're wrong. Just accept it and move on.
I have extremely reliable first hand information. You read a message board.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:30:16 AM
He framed it incorrectly and by doing so, it appeared to the team as if it was a special concession.
your source? Or is this all conjecture bs?
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:58:56 AM
I have extremely reliable first hand information. You read a message board.
I have extremely reliable first hand information that you're wrong. You're a guy on a message board.
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2021, 09:06:26 AM
I have extremely reliable first hand information that you're wrong. You're a guy on a message board.
Is that the same source that told you there was no way wojo would be fired ?
So is Wojo making Kolek an A10 guard because the Hausers wrote him a letter telling him to? Or is Wojo making Kolek an A10 guard because Markus got to go home.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 21, 2021, 09:37:41 AM
So is Wojo making Kolek an A10 guard because the Hausers wrote Gina letter telling him to? Or is Wojo making Kolek an A10 guard because Markus got to go home.
It's been awhile, like a week since we've argued this. Let's see what exciting new path this one takes.
Shots fired pew pew.
I've got 0 reliable information outside of my own senses but I loved Markus as a person and player, and I loved Sam as a person and player, and I was rooting for Wojo and MU to succeed.
I know nothing about Joey personally but unfortunately I had a feeling from the first open practice I saw him at that he was a little you know what. Then we saw it again and again and again during games.
Markus was a chucker, but Markus was also an All American getting all the headlines. The fact that anyone would do anything in the middle of an amazing season behind the scenes to fu*k that up is just absolutely devastating.
That could have been an amazing and historical season, and the true answer is that everyone involved has some fault. Jealousy/bitterness and personal pride are a sonovabitch that can derail any rapidly moving train. Wojo lost control and it all snowballed on him and the team
*** Had to edit this to say I was actually getting tired of talking/reading about Kolek. Great spot to take an already exhausted topic and hijack another that was heading that way
I think what we're trying to say is... Markus playing in the A-10 could have kept the Hausers from writing a letter because they'd never play with Kolek and the Hausers mom knew about a guy who had cancer and was in a locker room once so they'd have to transfer schools anyway while Wojo became head coach at Duke.
Flow chart for that one, please, UWM2MU.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 21, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
Shots fired pew pew.
I've got 0 reliable information outside of my own senses but I loved Markus as a person and player, and I loved Sam as a person and player, and I was rooting for Wojo and MU to succeed.
I know nothing about Joey personally but unfortunately I had a feeling from the first open practice I saw him at that he was a little you know what. Then we saw it again and again and again during games.
Markus was a chucker, but Markus was also an All American getting all the headlines. The fact that anyone would do anything in the middle of an amazing season behind the scenes to fu*k that up is just absolutely devastating.
That could have been an amazing and historical season, and the true answer is that everyone involved has some fault. Jealousy/bitterness and personal pride are a sonovabitch that can derail any rapidly moving train. Wojo lost control and it all snowballed on him and the team
*** Had to edit this to say I was actually getting tired of talking/reading about Kolek. Great spot to take an already exhausted topic and hijack another that was heading that way
Sorry - I just get fired up when people start blaming the kids in the situation when the head man grossly mismanaged the situation from the start.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:58:56 AM
I have extremely reliable first hand information. You read a message board.
Ugh. You don't get it.
It doesn't matter what Wojo told anyone. He did not grant Markus anything special, which was the root of your thesis to begin with.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 08:58:20 AM
Saying he's going through something and needs to be at home isn't a hipaa violation.
I didn't mention that law as Wojo isn't a MD. ADA for starters.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2021, 10:00:16 AM
Ugh. You don't get it.
It doesn't matter what Wojo told anyone. He did not grant Markus anything special, which was the root of your thesis to begin with.
Optics matter and some within the program perceived he gave special treatment.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 10:20:06 AM
Optics matter and some within the program perceived he gave special treatment.
That's because the Hausers were soft and spoiled
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 10:20:06 AM
Optics matter and some within the program perceived he gave special treatment.
JFC...I am going to explain this to you one more time. This is what you said originally:
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 06:28:53 AM
And the problems were also never there until Wojo started making special concessions and exceptions to keep Markus happy.
When you were (rightfully) called out on this nonsense, you started talking optics and communication. Which might have been fine in the summer of 2018, but clearly were behind everyone involved when Markus started coming out about his problems in the Spring of 2019 and the Hausers left after that season.
So while there MAY have been problems due to lack of communication in 2018, it wasn't because Wojo granted Markus anything special. Furthermore, everyone knew why Markus left that summer even before the 2018-19 season started. So regardless of what "source" you have, I am calling bullsh*t on your entire premise because it either makes the Hausers look REALLY bad, or you completely exaggerated.
I'm going with the latter.
This sounds like Panda had a good source, maybe conversation with one of the various Hausers, and they vented about some stuff at the time and Panda used it as justification for something months later. Could also be a more recent conversation where one of the various Hausers is listing a long list of grievances to justify ultimately trashing a great year, but Panda latched onto one without considering the timeline issue.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 09:22:07 AM
Is that the same source that told you there was no way wojo would be fired ?
Nobody told me Wojo wouldn't be fired. I simply didn't realize we had boosters who were willing to pony up millions to make it happen. I've admitted that.
You might want to occasionally admit you're wrong, too. It's good for the heart.
Nah ... easier to offer "evidence" of "reliable first hand information" because, after all, nobody can prove you're making stuff up if you say that.
But congrats on serving up the "you read a message board" putdown ... even as you anonymously offer your "proof" on the same message board.
The Hausers played a major role in torpedoing a very good season, and you blaming the coach for protecting a player with mental health issues is weak.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2021, 10:34:04 AM
JFC...I am going to explain this to you one more time. This is what you said originally:
When you were (rightfully) called out on this nonsense, you started talking optics and communication. Which might have been fine in the summer of 2018, but clearly were behind everyone involved when Markus started coming out about his problems in the Spring of 2019 and the Hausers left after that season.
So while there MAY have been problems due to lack of communication in 2018, it wasn't because Wojo granted Markus anything special. Furthermore, everyone knew why Markus left that summer even before the 2018-19 season started. So regardless of what "source" you have, I am calling bullsh*t on your entire premise because it either makes the Hausers look REALLY bad, or you completely exaggerated.
I'm going with the latter.
Take a deep breath Muggsy Jr. I know it's hard for you to wrap your head around, but it is possible you don't know everything about everything.
Quote from: panda on December 21, 2021, 11:16:46 AM
Take a deep breath Muggsy Jr. I know it's hard for you to wrap your head around, but it is possible you don't know everything about everything.
LOL. Deflection instead of approaching with logic.
Keep digging your hole deeper
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2021, 09:53:19 AM
Flow chart for that one, please, UWM2MU.
Easy.
Create terrible topic ----> Scoop goes off topic to another awful topic ----> Confusion
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 21, 2021, 10:26:04 AM
That's because the Hausers were soft and spoiled
Personally I find declaring a mental health crisis when on a campus filled with resources/counselors, etc., and needing to go home to be soft and spoiled.
Did the Hausers have a mental health crisis, and need to retreat back to Stevens Point? Seems as though Joey should have gone the Markus route and declared such.
Markus was a great scorer and great kid. Doesn't mean his teammates loved playing with him. Step back 23 footers 4 seconds into a shot clock with zero passes to teammates on the regular isn't a fun team to play on.
So..people can throw around that the Hausers were soft, but Markus was too.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2021, 11:31:27 AM
Personally I find declaring a mental health crisis when on a campus filled with resources/counselors, etc., and needing to go home to be soft and spoiled.
Did the Hausers have a mental health crisis, and need to retreat back to Stevens Point? Seems as though Joey should have gone the Markus route and declared such.
Clearly Rico was doing his "teal without teal" schtick. Personally I don't think its best to debate how to treat one's mental health on a message board where we have very little actual knowledge. If Markus needed to go home, he needed to go home. That hardly makes him soft.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2021, 11:31:27 AM
Markus was a great scorer and great kid. Doesn't mean his teammates loved playing with him. Step back 23 footers 4 seconds into a shot clock with zero passes to teammates on the regular isn't a fun team to play on.
This is a legit issue and much more likely to be the source of Hausers frustration rather than letting him go home for a summer.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2021, 11:31:27 AM
Personally I find declaring a mental health crisis when on a campus filled with resources/counselors, etc., and needing to go home to be soft and spoiled.
Did the Hausers have a mental health crisis, and need to retreat back to Stevens Point? Seems as though Joey should have gone the Markus route and declared such.
Markus was a great scorer and great kid. Doesn't mean his teammates loved playing with him. Step back 23 footers 4 seconds into a shot clock with zero passes to teammates on the regular isn't a fun team to play on.
So..people can throw around that the Hausers were soft, but Markus was too.
I find grown men, who peaked with their HS dunk, calling an emancipated 17yr old who moved halfway across the country to an entirely different lifestyle and play in front of thousands soft, to be somewhat soft themselves.
Joey and Sam got to go home all the time. I used to be friends with Froling on Snapchat and they were home all the time, bit of an invalid comparison to Markus not being around his family in AZ
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2021, 11:17:50 AM
LOL. Deflection instead of approaching with logic.
Keep digging your hole deeper
I didn't consider that saying "some people in the program believed Wojo gave preferential treatment to Markus."
That isn't my opinion. That is first hand info from what I know to be (and I'm sure if I would tell you the name, you'd agree) an extremely reliable source.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2021, 11:31:27 AM
Personally I find declaring a mental health crisis when on a campus filled with resources/counselors, etc., and needing to go home to be soft and spoiled.
Did the Hausers have a mental health crisis, and need to retreat back to Stevens Point? Seems as though Joey should have gone the Markus route and declared such.
Markus was a great scorer and great kid. Doesn't mean his teammates loved playing with him. Step back 23 footers 4 seconds into a shot clock with zero passes to teammates on the regular isn't a fun team to play on.
So..people can throw around that the Hausers were soft, but Markus was too.
I wouldn't retreat to Stevens Point for any reason
Glad to see that having a new coach doesn't stop us from having the exact same argument that's been going on for years. But the real question should be: did or didn't Davidson "piss their leg" in 2013?
I think Kolek is going to have a nice game tonight.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 21, 2021, 11:40:30 AM
I find grown men, who peaked with their HS dunk, calling an emancipated 17yr old who moved halfway across the country to an entirely different lifestyle and play in front of thousands soft, to be somewhat soft themselves.
Joey and Sam got to go home all the time. I used to be friends with Froling on Snapchat and they were home all the time, bit of an invalid comparison to Markus not being around his family in AZ
5'10", 170-pound kid who turns himself into an All-American college basketball player and a storied program's all-time leading scorer, then makes the NBA = soft.
Old man who brags on the internet about dunking in high school = ?
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 21, 2021, 12:30:32 PM
Glad to see that having a new coach doesn't stop us from having the exact same argument that's been going on for years. But the real question should be: did or didn't Davidson "piss their leg" in 2013?
THEY CHOKED LIKE DOGS EVEN THOUGH THEYRE WILDCATS
Quote from: baumu on December 21, 2021, 12:33:32 PM
I think Kolek is going to have a nice game tonight.
Kolek sucks
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2021, 11:31:27 AM
Personally I find declaring a mental health crisis when on a campus filled with resources/counselors, etc., and needing to go home to be soft and spoiled.
Did the Hausers have a mental health crisis, and need to retreat back to Stevens Point? Seems as though Joey should have gone the Markus route and declared such.
Markus was a great scorer and great kid. Doesn't mean his teammates loved playing with him. Step back 23 footers 4 seconds into a shot clock with zero passes to teammates on the regular isn't a fun team to play on.
So..people can throw around that the Hausers were soft, but Markus was too.
Lol. Dunked in high school. Psychiatrist. What can't you do?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 21, 2021, 11:40:30 AM
I find grown men, who peaked with their HS dunk, calling an emancipated 17yr old who moved halfway across the country to an entirely different lifestyle and play in front of thousands soft, to be somewhat soft themselves.
Joey and Sam got to go home all the time. I used to be friends with Froling on Snapchat and they were home all the time, bit of an invalid comparison to Markus not being around his family in AZ
I find the posters who call the Hausers soft, while defending Markus at every turn, to be soft. That aside Wojo was the ultimate problem, he never had the necessary cred or skillset to manage that situation.
Quote from: BLM on December 21, 2021, 12:53:26 PM
Lol. Dunked in high school. Psychiatrist. What can't you do?
I can't play your sport, volleyball. Btw...your prophecies of Final Fours and beautiful runs under Wojo once he had all his guys didn't quite work out so well for you. You were the biggest fanboy on here. Enough said as it relates to your basketball intellect.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2021, 07:13:24 PM
I find the posters who call the Hausers soft, while defending Markus at every turn, to be soft. That aside Wojo was the ultimate problem, he never had the necessary cred or skillset to manage that situation.
I can't play your sport, volleyball. Btw...your prophecies of Final Fours and beautiful runs under Wojo once he had all his guys didn't quite work out so well for you. You were the biggest fanboy on here. Enough said as it relates to your basketball intellect.
You're right I'll stand with people who graduated from MU and led/assisted us to multiple tournaments over weirdly obsessing over a guy who's proven to be crap at MSU and a guy who turned his back on his friend and school.
That being said I don't defend Markus at every turn, he shot too many ill advised shots, and cost us a few games wanting to be the clutch hero. With the Hausers though, he was probably 80% in the right from the version I've heard
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 21, 2021, 09:38:43 PM
You're right I'll stand with people who graduated from MU and led/assisted us to multiple tournaments over weirdly obsessing over a guy who's proven to be crap at MSU and a guy who turned his back on his friend and school.
That being said I don't defend Markus at every turn, he shot too many ill advised shots, and cost us a few games wanting to be the clutch hero. With the Hausers though, he was probably 80% in the right from the version I've heard
one thing about Markus no one mentions...he made the games worth watching, and put MU in the national spotlight during his time. Without MH, MU was meh.
Quote from: Viper on December 21, 2021, 09:47:10 PM
one thing about Markus no one mentions...he made the games worth watching, and put MU in the national spotlight during his time. Without MH, MU was meh.
With him they were often meh, too - especially in March.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2021, 10:43:05 PM
With him they were often meh, too - especially in March.
As opposed to without him where they didn't even make march? Correct me if I'm wrong but are you implying you'd rather have no march than meh march?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2021, 10:43:05 PM
With him they were often meh, too - especially in March.
True. With out him though we may not have even gotten Shaka as a coach. This would be a slippery slope without players like Markus at least keeping MU in the conversation. I dont think people realize how easy it would be to be a completely inept program. Markus prevented us from being inept.