1. Xavier was a 10 pt favorite and is ranked #22 in the country.
2. MU never stops fighting.
3. Nice to see Kolek and Morsell be productive. Not perfect. But productive. Hated TK's shot with 2 to go.
4. Fouls! Xavier was rewarded for being the aggressive team attacking the basket at home.
5. MU was too passive against X's zone. And I don't mind Lewis turning and shooting, but he has to square up when he turns to shoot. 3x today he twisted when he shot from 17 instead of squaring. Missed all 3.
6. I would play zone every single game against MU going forward.
7. That Greg guy has had two solid games in a row.
8. Osa >Kuath. Kuath was not prepared for about 3 lobs today that turned into turnovers.
9. Veterans against young guys. Just like UCLA.
10. First conference road game against a top 25 team. Exciting, but fairly inevitable result.
I'm not a blame the refs guy, but do you think the players used lube when they gave the refs HJ's before the game?
— side note sloppy sloppy possessions. We win this game if we finish at the hoop. Kuath and Lewis both had multiple close misses.
— played well but can't blame this on youth either. Our seniors really made some big mistakes.
So ... it's Moral " victory " time ??
We will learn.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 05:20:45 PM
4. Fouls! Xavier was rewarded for being the aggressive team attacking the basket at home.
Lewis gets called for a foul on a dunk and a few minutes he goes baseline for a dunk and you don't get the call. Never saw a replay but it looks like there could have been contact. They got the call. We didn't.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 05:27:35 PM
Process.
Nonsense.
Morsell is a bust. A Senior that doesn't show Senior leadership. No "process" is going to help him.
And Shaka, for whatever reason, brought in a team full of guys that can't shoot. That won't magically improve as the year goes on.
If you ask me (get ready for entertainment according to Goose), our most complete game of the year. Not the result we wanted, but that's because of the 7 minutes that we didn't play well (last 5 first half, last 2 second half).
I was generally encouraged. Not a moral victory, but I don't expect much from this years team, and that game gave me more encouragement.
Keep giving Greg minutes.
It was a game effort by our lads, but very poor strategy/ball movement/shot selection in the last few moments of both halves. Agree, Tower, that the heave/brick by Kolek was egregiously stupid. Oso
needs to learn to get better position. Morsell brought a real bad game by him up to acceptable. It has to be time to put some analytics on the so-called press. We would double the ball-handler but 100% of the time left the lazy cross-court pass get made without ever even an attempt to grab it for a pick-six. From there the ball would be advanced to open shooters.
More like "We need a cleanup in aisle three"
If only:
Prosper missed a dunk and a one foot tap in.
Lob attempts to Kuath were four, not three, all misses.
Three 30 second shot clock violations in first half.
Kolek and Morsell both gave up a pick six layup.
Kuath on two straight possessions did not handle defensive rebounds and Nunge and Freemantle scored.
Just sloppy, but it adds up.
MU down one and then jack up threes by Elliott and Kolek, then Lewis miss dunk, ballgame.
MU scored two points in final three minutes..
I'll add, we're lucky they sucked from the FT line today...
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 05:27:35 PM
Process.
It's interesting that in your comprehensive list you did not mention the points XU got in transition or versus our press. Wide open bunnies and corner threes time and time again. That along with the free throw discrepancy gave us no margin for error despite a great stretch offensively for TK and GE.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 05:38:02 PM
I'll add, we're lucky they sucked from the FT line today...
And X was lucky we were subpar on our 2's. Works both ways.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2021, 05:43:48 PM
And X was lucky we were subpar on our 2's. Works both ways.
Haven't looked at the stats, were we far worse than our average? It didn't appear so, our average isn't good.
edit: looks like we shot 46% from 2, vs 52% on average . They shot 60% on FTs, vs 70% avg.
Really did great down the stretch until Kolek's quick three. Kinda lost momentum there. But he had a solid game. Good effort.
Down 70-69 with 2 minutes left against a solid #22 team on the road...I think most here would have taken that before tip off.
Some dumb/careless turnovers by our guys. Kolek being in foul trouble hurt the team substantially. All in all I'm pleased with this team, the effort, the upside, the potential.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 05:46:48 PM
Really did great down the stretch until Kolek's quick three. Kinda lost momentum there. But he had a solid game. Good effort.
Losing sucks especially when you make a comeback late on the road and have a chance to win, but I was pleased with the effort. I didn't really mind Kolek's three. If I recall, he was pretty open and it was a good look. It easily could have gone in.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 18, 2021, 05:50:37 PM
Down 70-69 with 2 minutes left against a solid #22 team on the road...I think most here would have taken that before tip off.
Some dumb/careless turnovers by our guys.
I agree with both of those statements.
" Process " is fine
But Shaka brought in guys that can't shoot ... which he knew.
The BE is BIG TIME ... they cut it to
One Point w / 3 mins to go. Did not
finish
And ... sorry ... in 2021 w / " free agency " and NIL and transfers galore ..
Shaka does not get 3 or 4 years to build.
I still hope 9/11 is possible, but they need a few good " resume " wins.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 05:45:06 PM
Haven't looked at the stats, were we far worse than our average? It didn't appear so, our average isn't good.
edit: looks like we shot 46% from 2, vs 52% on average . They shot 60% on FTs, vs 70% avg.
If X shoots 70% from the FT line, they get 4.5 more points.
If we shoot 52% for our 2's, we make 2 more shots (I will let you pick any of the missed dunks/layups) and we get 4 more points.
Advantage, no one.
Quote from: nyg on December 18, 2021, 05:36:00 PM
More like "We need a cleanup in aisle three"
If only:
Prosper missed a dunk and a one foot tap in.
Lob attempts to Kuath were four, not three, all misses.
Three 30 second shot clock violations in first half.
Kolek and Morsell both gave up a pick six layup.
Kuath on two straight possessions did not handle defensive rebounds and Nunge and Freemantle scored.
Just sloppy, but it adds up.
MU down one and then jack up threes by Elliott and Kolek, then Lewis miss dunk, ballgame.
MU scored two points in final three minutes..
aspects of this game certainly had a a Wojo feel to it. PG is so critical. Can't jack shots.
With everything that went wrong, I'm shocked we had the ball down 1 late. We had a chance to steal one despite allowing way more free throw attempts, lots of missed opportunities at the basket, foul trouble, and multiple brutal turnovers. So there is hope because if they would have even cleaned up ONE of those things were probably up 3 to 5 at the end instead of down 1. But the question is if/when they will put it all together? It is the first conference game and they are still exceeding my expectations at this point. So I'm not overly concerned at this point. But would have liked to steal this one.
To me, the most brutal plays of the game were in the second half. First when we got a steal and then Lewis tried to lead the break, jumped in the air, and threw it to X for a dunk. Then later when Elliott threw a careless outlet pass that they picked for 2 more. Those are just the kinds of turnovers you cannot have. That's at LEAST a 4-point swing in a game that was nearly tied at the end. There were other brutal plays too. Gotta cut those out and we're fine.
Quote from: Mu8891 on December 18, 2021, 05:57:44 PM
" Process " is fine
But Shaka brought in guys that can't shoot ... which he knew.
The BE is BIG TIME ... they cut it to
One Point w / 3 mins to go. Did not
finish
And ... sorry ... in 2021 w / " free agency " and NIL and transfers galore ..
Shaka does not get 3 or 4 years to build.
I still hope 9/11 is possible, but they need a few good " resume " wins.
The second dumbest thing I've read on Scoop today.
Xavier got to the line 35 times today. The whistle was in their favor as it usually is for a ranked home team. Did you really expect MU to beat Xavier today?
Quote from: TheyWereCones on December 18, 2021, 06:03:14 PM
With everything that went wrong, I'm shocked we had the ball down 1 late. We had a chance to steal one despite allowing way more free throw attempts, lots of missed opportunities at the basket, foul trouble, and multiple brutal turnovers. So there is hope because if they would have even cleaned up ONE of those things were probably up 3 to 5 at the end instead of down 1. But the question is if/when they will put it all together? It is the first conference game and they are still exceeding my expectations at this point. So I'm not overly concerned at this point. But would have liked to steal this one.
To me, the most brutal plays of the game were in the second half. First when we got a steal and then Lewis tried to lead the break, jumped in the air, and threw it to X for a dunk. Then later when Elliott threw a careless outlet pass that they picked for 2 more. Those are just the kinds of turnovers you cannot have. That's at LEAST a 4-point swing in a game that was nearly tied at the end. There were other brutal plays too. Gotta cut those out and we're fine.
100% right on. Morsell also had a lazy cross court pass that got taken the other way for a layup. Brutal play from a vet.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2021, 05:59:23 PM
If X shoots 70% from the FT line, they get 4.5 more points.
If we shoot 52% for our 2's, we make 2 more shots (I will let you pick any of the missed dunks/layups) and we get 4 more points.
Advantage, no one.
I mean, if we're trusting both of our numbers, Marquette had a 0.5pt advantage. But I rounded to whole percentages, and guessing you did some rounding too. My point being, we could have lost by a lot (a few?) more had they hit FTs. That's all. X was pretty awful from the freebies today.
Smart doing the best he can with what he has.... Last year, many of these players were in high school gyms. Played X tough today, team had a couple good runs. Vegas has us pegged.
I just worry about March after each Big East team has played us once, and watches more film. Lewis is a beast, key him, and everyone else is pretty green. No one knew us early in the year, so we won, but UCLA, St. B, and X scouted well on how to handle us. Wright, McDermott, Ewing, Hurley, Willard and Cooley, they will be ready.
We will give some bloody noses for sure, but Smart is just getting started. I think he will coach our talent well.
Shaka recruited these non shooters so who to blame but himself. If his new philosophy was run, fun and shoot 3's, he should have recruited to that situation. Omax where does he fit? Did not play at Clemson so why at MU? Ellis and Itegere not even playing, not a good class that came to MU to play this style.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 05:20:45 PM
3. Nice to see Kolek and Morsell be productive. Not perfect. But productive. Hated TK's shot with 2 to go.
4. Fouls! Xavier was rewarded for being the aggressive team attacking the basket at home.
These were the only things that mattered. The biggest play of the game was Kolek shooting an ill-advised 3 when we were down 2 with 2 minutes to go.
And of course we wouldn't have been in that position without the constant fouling (in a game that wasn't even called real tight). X was in the Double Bonus in the 2nd half with 11 minutes to go.
Both of these things can be attributed to youth.
It just looked at the ends of the halves that they could have used some direction and instruction.
They didn't get that, and the finish was what it was. I like the way Shaka stresses relationships and seems to have the players' attention, but so far I wouldn't call him a great strategist or game coach.
Maybe he's trying to let them learn for themselves, but I think a lot of coaches would have been
offering more in the way of advice (i.e., what they wanted to see run) at those junctures.
On to UConn.
Greg has to be on the court for this team. He is the only consistent 3 point scorer right now.
This was nothing like the ucla game, we could have won and were competitive. Ucla wasn't a competitive game from the jump.
Too many mistakes, need to clean it up and the kids will learn. As long as they compete hard, learn from this game, keep their confidence and energy up. They can still make noise this year.
I am not writing this year off as a process year. No reason we can't win half in the big East.
Quote from: Mu8891 on December 18, 2021, 05:57:44 PM
" Process " is fine
But Shaka brought in guys that can't shoot ... which he knew.
The BE is BIG TIME ... they cut it to
One Point w / 3 mins to go. Did not
finish
And ... sorry ... in 2021 w / " free agency " and NIL and transfers galore ..
Shaka does not get 3 or 4 years to build.
I still hope 9/11 is possible, but they need a few good " resume " wins.
Shaka does not get 3 or 4 years to build? Not saying he needs 3 or 4, but do you think Marquette is going to fire another coach anytime soon? Highly unlikely. He will do fine and be given plenty of leeway by MU. Insane how many fans are unhappy already. Shaka had to start all over coming into this year. Anyone who was thinking NCAA this season is drinking way too much Milwaukee brew. We will finish a game or so under .500 in BE and I think that was/is to be expected. Super young team. So much impatience by some fans.
Muggsy, this game was decided when Xavier decided to attack the basket hard off the dribble with their upperclassmen against MU's young guys. They won this game due to number of free throws. Big, strong, experienced team at home.
You can Karen all you want. Shaka's defensive trademark is pressure. The only way it stops, IMO, is if he doesn't have the bodies.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 18, 2021, 06:55:42 PM
Shaka does not get 3 or 4 years to build? Not saying he needs 3 or 4, but do you think Marquette is going to fire another coach anytime soon? Highly unlikely. He will do fine and be given plenty of leeway by MU. Insane how many fans are unhappy already. Shaka had to start all over coming into this year. Anyone who was thinking NCAA this season is drinking way too much Milwaukee brew. We will finish a game or so under .500 in BE and I think that was/is to be expected. Super young team. So much impatience by some fans.
super young? Morsell, 2K, Elliott are 5th yr guys. Lewis played a lot last season. Kolek played a lot last season at GM. Since Shaka is pretty much at 7 guys, only Oso and Jones are 'young'. Mitchell, Joplin, Ellis, Omax really don't play. I think folks are upset in the realization that MU, a true 'basketball' school, is closing in on a lost decade.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 18, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
It's interesting that in your comprehensive list you did not mention the points XU got in transition or versus our press. Wide open bunnies and corner threes time and time again. That along with the free throw discrepancy gave us no margin for error despite a great stretch offensively for TK and GE.
Solid teams are going to take advantage of the press.
Quote from: Viper on December 18, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
super young? Morsell, 2K, Elliott are 5th yr guys. Lewis played a lot last season. Kolek played a lot last season at GM. Since Shaka is pretty much at 7 guys, only Oso and Jones are 'young'. Mitchell, Joplin, Ellis, Omax really don't play. I think folks are upset in the realization that MU, a true 'basketball' school, is closing in on a lost decade.
351st/357 in experience. We are young. That is an inarguable fact
they also don't have a lot of time playing with each other that a squad of 3 or 4 year players coming up together have. imo, there's an intangible chemistry factor to teams like that.
I am loving some of these new posters. Losses are entertaining.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 08:18:36 PM
I am loving some of these new posters. Losses are entertaining.
Russian bots.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 18, 2021, 07:41:17 PM
351st/357 in experience. We are young. That is an inarguable fact
Stuffing the bench with 5 (of 12) true frosh will do that. We don't start a young team. And Justin, Oso, Tyler, and Omax aren't Frosh.
I'd like to know which schools reclassified their Sophomores as Freshman (and does that count in your inarguable fact?). Wisconsin didn't do it with Davis.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 08:29:35 PM
Stuffing the bench with 5 (of 12) true frosh will do that. We don't start a young team. And Justin, Oso, Tyler, and Omax aren't Frosh.
I'd like to know which schools reclassified their Sophomores as Freshman (and does that count in your inarguable fact?). Wisconsin didn't do it with Davis.
Neither one of those things factor into Kenpoms experience rankings though.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 08:36:57 PM
Neither one of those things factor into Kenpoms experience rankings though.
Are you sure? Best I can tell there are 10 BE teams with Sophomores, guess which school doesn't have a single one?
https://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?link=y&sIndex=1&maxht=1000&yvalue=So&cvalue=BE&ocvalue=undefined&xvalue=undefined&year=2022&minmin=1&start=20211101&end=20220501
Also, 5 of 12 players as true frosh absolutely counts!
Edit: here's what I found: https://kenpom.com/blog/height-and-other-stuff-page/
Experience
– The experience value is in terms of years of college experience where a player's eligibility class is assumed to determine this. For the purposes of the calculation, a freshman has zero years of experience, a sophomore has one year of experience, etc.
So, he's counting 4 of our sophomores as frosh, with no experience. Correct?
When I hear young I think more a combination of a role inexperience and chemistry as a team, not so much years in college. In that respect they are very very young and I expect to see a huge amount of development over the year. Not having three years playing together in a system is underrated on this board. Even Aaron Rodgers will struggle some when he has to learn a new offense.
Quote from: THEbig0 on December 18, 2021, 08:48:01 PM
When I hear young I think more a combination of a role inexperience and chemistry as a team, not so much years in college. In that respect they are very very young and I expect to see a huge amount of development over the year. Not having three years playing together in a system is underrated on this board.
I'm not debating that, in fact I generally agree. I'm only debating that we're not actually "351st/357 " - that is a completely refutable number.
MU / Shaka has decided to play the numbers in ways that other schools haven't. I don't know why, but that's a fact.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 08:39:41 PM
Are you sure? Best I can tell there are 10 BE teams with Sophomores, guess which school doesn't have a single one?
https://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?link=y&sIndex=1&maxht=1000&yvalue=So&cvalue=BE&ocvalue=undefined&xvalue=undefined&year=2022&minmin=1&start=20211101&end=20220501
Also, 5 of 12 players as true frosh absolutely counts!
Edit: here's what I found: https://kenpom.com/blog/height-and-other-stuff-page/
Experience
– The experience value is in terms of years of college experience where a player's eligibility class is assumed to determine this. For the purposes of the calculation, a freshman has zero years of experience, a sophomore has one year of experience, etc.
So, he's counting 4 of our sophomores as frosh, with no experience. Correct?
Yes I'm sure.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 06:57:14 PM
Muggsy, this game was decided when Xavier decided to attack the basket hard off the dribble with their upperclassmen against MU's young guys. They won this game due to number of free throws. Big, strong, experienced team at home.
You can Karen all you want. Shaka's defensive trademark is pressure. The only way it stops, IMO, is if he doesn't have the bodies.
I disagree with your insinuation that we cannot adapt to our personnel. You also fail to point out that their attacks to the rim were most effective when we pressed, Odom is the best example. And calling me a "Karen" is weak and illustrates that you refuse to deal with nuances and facts within each game.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 08:55:34 PM
Yes I'm sure.
No. You're wrong. Or show me where I'm in error.
I've already proven that 5 freshman absolutely count against our experience (his blog). So at least one of my two things absolutely does count (you said both don't).
I'm also pretty sure that because Marquette classified Sophs as Fosh (and other schools didn't) that they also get "zero" experience points. Prove me wrong. Otherwise you're zero for two.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 18, 2021, 08:55:54 PM
I disagree with your insinuation that we cannot adapt to our personnel. You also fail to point out that their attacks to the rim were most effective when we pressed, Odom is the best example. And calling me a "Karen" is weak and illustrates that you refuse to deal with nuances and facts within each game.
Man are you going to be like this every game?
Anyway this is how Shaka is playing. And I think it's fine.
Our defense improved, our rebounding improved. Neither perfect, but better.
Nice to see a team improved as the year progresses. Would rather them be better at the end than the beginning. Eh na?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 08:56:17 PM
No. You're wrong. Or show me where I'm in error.
I've already proven that 5 freshman absolutely count against our experience (his blog). So at least one of my two things absolutely does count (you said both don't).
I'm also pretty sure that because Marquette classified Sophs as Fosh (and other schools didn't) that they also get "zero" experience points. Prove me wrong. Otherwise you're zero for two.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 08:57:22 PM
Man are you going to be like this every game?
Anyway this is how Shaka is playing. And I think it's fine.
What are you talking about? I'm analyzing what happened, that's all.
Losing Kolek really hurt us. We just don't get great spacing and open lions with him off the floor. Mitchell was just abused off the bounce too. That was the biggest shift and what ultimately lost us the game.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 08:56:17 PM
No. You're wrong. Or show me where I'm in error.
I've already proven that 5 freshman absolutely count against our experience (his blog). So at least one of my two things absolutely does count (you said both don't).
I'm also pretty sure that because Marquette classified Sophs as Fosh (and other schools didn't) that they also get "zero" experience points. Prove me wrong. Otherwise you're zero for two.
https://twitter.com/totally_t_bomb/status/1467308663438286848?s=20
Bart TBasketballrvik
@totally_t_bomb
Random note: "experience" numbers on my site used to be based just on listed year of eligibility, but this year that's kind of messed up with the extra Covid year, so I'm counting actual years played...
Oops.
Some perspective is needed here as well. Losing two in a row is tough, but a loss to a borderline top 5 team and staying extremely competitive on the road with who is probably the best team in the BE is nothing to panic about.
This team will be fine.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 09:57:00 PM
https://twitter.com/totally_t_bomb/status/1467308663438286848?s=20
Bart TBasketballrvik
@totally_t_bomb
Random note: "experience" numbers on my site used to be based just on listed year of eligibility, but this year that's kind of messed up with the extra Covid year, so I'm counting actual years played...
Oops.
But that's Torvik (I honestly don't see experience numbers on Torvik's site, if you can point me to it, thanks!). To my knowledge, TAMU is quoting pomeroy numbers, and I linked to his blog. kenpom is just using "classification", as far as I can tell.
But also, if you want to talk torvik experience, explain this?
https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2022&p=Olivier-Maxence%20Prosper&t=Marquette
edit: OK, using your twitter link I got to his experience graph, and using all of D1, it looks like we're in the bottom 1/3. But near the top of that. So we're not 351??? See attached. We are in the bottom of the BE though, I'll give TAMU that. 11 of 11!
edit 2: Found it on Torvik's site. Go here, and pull down sort by "experience". MU lands at 284. I can believe that #.
https://barttorvik.com/team-tables_each.php
We can argue experience or lack there of till the cows come home. I didn't see any lack of poise or cohesion from a new/young team tonight. Xavier just is more talented and would not let us back into the game in the second half.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 10:05:43 PM
But that's Torvik (I honestly don't see experience numbers on Torvik's site, if you can point me to it, thanks!). To my knowledge, TAMU is quoting pomeroy numbers, and I linked to his blog. kenpom is just using "classification", as far as I can tell.
But also, if you want to talk torvik experience, explain this?
https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2022&p=Olivier-Maxence%20Prosper&t=Marquette
Explain what?
Anyway, I said class year listed by the school doesn't matter
You said I was wrong and linked to Tovik's site
I provided a tweet from Torvik that backs up what I said.
So you were wrong. And yet you are still trying to be right?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 10:14:41 PM
So you were wrong. And yet you are still trying to be right?
See my edits. Not wrong. Found it on Torvik's site. 284 of 358. Not exactly 351.
FWIW, TAMU claimed 351 as an irrefutable fact. I refuted. You intervened.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 10:14:41 PM
Explain what?
Anyway, I said class year listed by the school doesn't matter
You said I was wrong and linked to Tovik's site
I provided a tweet from Torvik that backs up what I said.
You said neither factored into Kenpom's rankings...and that was wrong.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2021, 08:36:57 PM
Neither one of those things factor into Kenpoms experience rankings though.
We have people here who think a team that only returned one starter, one sporadic bench guy and one guy who played 10 seconds last season should be putting some kind of finished product on the floor. And that if we lose to ranked teams that are huge favorites against us, it's the coach's fault.
Some of us said months ago that it wouldn't be easy to actually win games this season. Heck, look at my tagline -- Shaka said it himself, and he said it repeatedly, and it wasn't just coach-speak.
We have no go-to guy, a PG who played 2G in the A-10 last season, a guy who has never scored now expected to be a scoring leader, a guy who spent most of his first 4 seasons at Marquette injured now carrying the mantle as the only shooter on the team, etc, etc, etc.
And despite all that, we just lost a close game to a top-25 team on the road.
We will have a lot of games like this. Hopefully, we'll win some of them, but it's simply not the most important thing about this season IMHO.
The UConn game looks winnable. It looks very lose-able, too. That's what we've got this season.
As for this game ...
++ I didn't mind Greg's shot with us down 1. He got a good look, he's a very good shooter, and he had just hit a nice shot and 3 FTs. Kolek's absolute brick with us down 3 was brutal. You could see he was thinking about shooting the whole time, and it was a horrific decision by our floor general. Hopefully, he'll learn from this.
++ We let their non-shooting little guy just take us apart on his drives. It was like watching Tiny Archibald out there. Of the not-good things that happened out there today, that was No. 1 on my list.
++ Kam really wants to be the hero. By the time he's done at Marquette, he'll hit some big shots. He already has.
++ I like how we competed. We are overachieving. I'm still hopeful that we'll be better in February and March.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 18, 2021, 10:18:36 PM
See my edits. Not wrong. Found it on Torvik's site. 284 of 358. Not exactly 351.
FWIW, TAMU claimed 351 as an irrefutable fact. I refuted. You intervened.
You said neither factored into Kenpom's rankings...and that was wrong.
Well actually I us said being young is an irrefutable fact, which is true. But you do seem to be correct. I made the mistake of assuming that KenPom universally counted COVID years the same way and at least from what I can tell, that doesn't seem to be the case (which is really stupid). I'm confident that even if everyone was counted the same way, we would still be among the bottom 75 teams.
One thing though, you implied that it was just because we had a bunch of freshmen on or bench. The calculation weights players' score based on minutes played.
We are also 339th/346 in minutes continuity. So regardless of how old we are, we have a bunch of guys who have never played together before learning to play together. (The reason it's 346 not 357 is because all 8 ivy league teams, Bethune Cookman, and Maryland Eastern Shore have a score of 0 because they all sat out last season and St. Thomas has a score of 0 because they weren't D1 last season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBo7ohHhNnY
Shaka's press conference.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2021, 06:57:14 PM
Muggsy, this game was decided when Xavier decided to attack the basket hard off the dribble with their upperclassmen against MU's young guys. They won this game due to number of free throws. Big, strong, experienced team at home.
You can Karen all you want. Shaka's defensive trademark is pressure. The only way it stops, IMO, is if he doesn't have the bodies.
This. The refs were not unfair. X has big strong experienced guys who drove to the hoop. Our frosh just are not strong enough yet to defend that consistently without fouling. No criticism just facts. That will change.
My only concern is on the other end we stand around outside the arc and jack up 3's. No driving towards the hoop. Frustrating. Changed a little in the second half. Not enough. Also, still wish TK would go to the hoop some of the time when he is in the paint. He could draw fouls and get to the line. It will also prevent teams from guarding the pass. Teams are going to get better at doing that against us as they know TK is only going to put the layup up once or twice a game.
Xavier's zone froze MU for a few possessions in the first half. As did Kolek's foul trouble. He is the one guy in MU who can consistently get in the paint and create for others.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 18, 2021, 06:05:00 PM
100% right on. Morsell also had a lazy cross court pass that got taken the other way for a layup. Brutal play from a vet.
Yes those lazy passes cost us a lot and there is zero excuse for lazy passes. Those turnovers are available and costly.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 18, 2021, 11:26:08 PM
Well actually I us said being young is an irrefutable fact, which is true. But you do seem to be correct. I made the mistake of assuming that KenPom universally counted COVID years the same way and at least from what I can tell, that doesn't seem to be the case (which is really stupid). I'm confident that even if everyone was counted the same way, we would still be among the bottom 75 teams.
One thing though, you implied that it was just because we had a bunch of freshmen on or bench. The calculation weights players' score based on minutes played.
We are also 339th/346 in minutes continuity. So regardless of how old we are, we have a bunch of guys who have never played together before learning to play together. (The reason it's 346 not 357 is because all 8 ivy league teams, Bethune Cookman, and Maryland Eastern Shore have a score of 0 because they all sat out last season and St. Thomas has a score of 0 because they weren't D1 last season.
Appreciate the clarification,. As I mentioned earlier, I don't dispute the that MU is a young / inexperienced team with a new system. Bottom 10 seemed wrong. The interaction with Fluff annoyed me, but he did share Torvik's twitter link which lead to the more accurate number!
Quote from: panda on December 18, 2021, 10:04:18 PM
Some perspective is needed here as well. Losing two in a row is tough, but a loss to a borderline top 5 team and staying extremely competitive on the road with who is probably the best team in the BE is nothing to panic about.
This team will be fine.
Get out of here with these rational takes.
I agree though.
It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.
Quote from: panda on December 18, 2021, 10:08:57 PM
We can argue experience or lack there of till the cows come home. I didn't see any lack of poise or cohesion from a new/young team tonight. Xavier just is more talented and would not let us back into the game in the second half.
We were down 1 with the ball with a couple of minutes left....
Quote from: Goose on December 19, 2021, 08:48:09 AM
It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.
Agree, Goose. I'll take it one step further and say we will be competitive in most games.
Our weaknesses have been well-documented, but we do have tough-minded, hard-working athletes and a good coach, and the Big East does not appear to have any "great" teams this season. We will need to shoot well, keep our key guys out of foul trouble, avoid live-ball turnovers -- all the usual stuff any team needs to succeed but more because our margin of error is so thin. A little luck would be nice, too!
Quote from: MU82 on December 19, 2021, 09:04:54 AM
A little luck would be nice, too!
Hey, MU is top 50 (#46) and 2nd in the BE in luck. Your wish is granted :)
Quote from: Goose on December 19, 2021, 08:48:09 AM
It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.
This is where I am at also. Greg's 3 pointer to bring us to being only one point down gave me hope that we could somehow pull off the upset. To come back like that, even only briefly, against a very good Xavier team on their home court is really impressive. I thought that most of the comments on the game thread were,
more than usually, hyper critical. There were only a few that acknowledged our team's successes for much of the first half and the second half comeback. I get the right to criticize but come on guys-some of that sh*t was really over the top.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 19, 2021, 09:00:49 AM
We were down 1 with the ball with a couple of minutes left....
And x went on a 6-0 run.
Quote from: panda on December 19, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
And x went on a 6-0 run.
Right. But they most definitely "let us back in the game." Unless you are saying that down 1 and with the ball isn't "in the game."
I agree that thete are positives to take from this game but I'm not big fan of moral victories. I also disagree that X was a much better team yesterday and we only had that one opportunity late until Kolek threw up that unadvised triple. Additionally I think X's zone was god awful and the reason it was effective was because we missed wide open shots both inside and out.
Here are the facts:
MU was in control of the game early and made 4 threes. Once we got a nice cushion Xavier punched back to their credit.
In the midst of Xavier coming back and seemingly controlling the game by the end of the first half, MU missed 5 point blank shots. When you add Odom and others getting uncontested lay-ups after shredding our press, we're talking about a very quick and substantial swing in the game. In lieu of being down 2 at the half we absolutely should have had s significant cushion. 8 pts minimum.
Obviously the start of the 2nd half was a complete s-show. Multiple poor decisions, bad shot selection, wild turnovers. The game easily could have gotten away from us but our guys battled to their credit. Kolek played very well yesterday and his foul trouble hurt us. GE kept us in the game with his shot-making . We generally played from behind but could never get over the hump after they went up double digits.
All this said it is my contention that for the majority of the game our press was ineffective and directly led to us never being able to seize momentum. They scored way too easily numerous times in the 2nd half when we got it to 6, 5, or 4. Bunny, after bunny, after bunny, or a 46% three point shooter getting wide open corner shots. And if I'm wrong about this point why did we ditch the press at about the 6 min mark?
I simply do not understand why we have to trap teams with superior quickness. That doesn't mean I don't think we can and it will work against certain teams or with the right personnel, but don't tell me it was a net positive yesterday or other times in the season because it hasn't been.
No one said it was a "moral victory." Pointing out positives in a loss, and negatives in a win, isn't making excuses or anything. You can be sure that coaches do the same.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2021, 09:31:47 AM
Right. But they most definitely "let us back in the game." Unless you are saying that down 1 and with the ball isn't "in the game."
We had the opportunity to take the lead for one possession in the second half. You are correct.
This was MU's best start of the year (+7 in first ten minutes). In fact, MU has only led after the first quadrant in three games (SIUE +1 and NIU +3).
I'd have to watch the game again Muggsy but I didn't come away with the same impression that you did that our press was getting shredded. We held Xavier significantly under their average 2P%, 3P%, and eFG% and most of those "uncontested" layups happened after they had gotten across half court and initiated their half court offense. The one place I saw us getting "shredded" was that Odom was able to stop and shoot in the mid-range short of our shotblockers' reach and went 6/6 on those attempts. Other than Odom, every other player on X shot under 50% from except Kunkel and Hunter who both went 1/2.
Where I saw concern again was on the boards. They beat us up on the offensive glass and a good chunk of those fouls called on us were rebounding fouls. I don't think a single rebounding foul was called on X but our guys needed to foul because they were getting beat to the ball.
I saw superior offensive team getting matched by a superior defensive team, but winning because of foul trouble and rebounds.
I'm surprised (well it's Scoop so not actually that surprised) by how negative people are after this game. It's a loss, so it sucks but I came away encouraged which was different from the previous losses. Xavier may be the best team in the Big East (I think they've been the best so far), we played them on the road, the game was always in question until the final 30 seconds, and we were down 1 with a chance to take the lead with 2:30 left, despite our starting PG only playing 22 minutes due to foul trouble.
I don't get it, either TAMU. Vegas had MU as a 10 point underdog. The majority of the board expect MU to be under . 500 in conference on February 9. MU played a ranked team on the road and was competitive. MU did not get embarrassed.
The nature of this team didn't suddenly change. They fought. They lost to a more experienced, ranked team in their arena.
I appreciated the resilience yesterday. Xavier could've put us away multiple times, but we wouldn't let them. The fouls really hurt. Not just the quantity, though a 10-0 foul disparity in a 15:01 stretch seems a bit ridiculous, but who they were on. Greg fouled out, Oso and Kolek were limited by fouls, and no one other than Tyler could reliably create.
Tyler reminds me a lot right now of upperclassman Junior Cadougan. A bit better defensively, don't really trust his shot, and turns it over too much, but also the only guy that can make a shot for anyone else on a team where not many guys can get their own shot.
Anyway...good performance in a tough environment. We're going to win some of these as the year goes on. eFG% defense was better, and was also good against UCLA. This team is improving. And we need to make some hay starting now. 5 of the next 7 at home, both road games look winnable. Need to build on a good performance and knock out some Ws.
This is the way I look at yesterday's game:
1) Next year, this is a game that, all things being equal, we win. We lost this one because of our youthfulness going up against a very battle hardened team. As I said earlier, we'll learn.
2) I don't get all the Kolek criticism. The guy plays his heart out every time he hits the floor. He had an open shot and took it. In retrospect, probably not a good idea, but out of 100 of us, how many would have done exactly the same thing. I doubt Coach Smart got down on Kolek for taking the shot.
3) Suppose Kolek passed to someone else and they missed? This board would be going nuts on Kolek for passing up an open shot. Probably just as angry.
4) The most disappointing aspect to yesterday -- and I'm sure our players and coaches agree -- is that we need to steal one or two to make it to the NCAAs this year. Yesterday was a great chance to steal one on the road against a very good team, and we did not complete the heist.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 19, 2021, 10:06:52 AM
I'm surprised (well it's Scoop so not actually that surprised) by how negative people are after this game. It's a loss, so it sucks but I came away encouraged which was different from the previous losses. Xavier may be the best team in the Big East (I think they've been the best so far), we played them on the road, the game was always in question until the final 30 seconds, and we were down 1 with a chance to take the lead with 2:30 left, despite our starting PG only playing 22 minutes due to foul trouble.
They could have won by 30 and people would have still been here complaining about something
Solid thread title.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 19, 2021, 10:46:03 AM
2) I don't get all the Kolek criticism. The guy plays his heart out every time he hits the floor. He had an open shot and took it. In retrospect, probably not a good idea, but out of 100 of us, how many would have done exactly the same thing. I doubt Coach Smart got down on Kolek for taking the shot.
It seems like Kolek is going to be in that long line of guards we as a fanbase, underappreciate.
If Kolek stays around 3 years he is going to be really good. I think over time the mistakes go down and the three point shooting will go up.
He's got very good court vision, which really can't be taught. Seeing the floor and be able to find the open man is a real talent, and he's got it.
He's got to tighten up that shot, and get a little better at avoiding turnovers on those long cross-court passes, but I think is a legit Big East level player now, and will get better.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 19, 2021, 10:01:35 AM
I'd have to watch the game again Muggsy but I didn't come away with the same impression that you did that our press was getting shredded. We held Xavier significantly under their average 2P%, 3P%, and eFG% and most of those "uncontested" layups happened after they had gotten across half court and initiated their half court offense. The one place I saw us getting "shredded" was that Odom was able to stop and shoot in the mid-range short of our shotblockers' reach and went 6/6 on those attempts. Other than Odom, every other player on X shot under 50% from except Kunkel and Hunter who both went 1/2.
Where I saw concern again was on the boards. They beat us up on the offensive glass and a good chunk of those fouls called on us were rebounding fouls. I don't think a single rebounding foul was called on X but our guys needed to foul because they were getting beat to the ball.
I saw superior offensive team getting matched by a superior defensive team, but winning because of foul trouble and rebounds.
We're all entitled to our opinion but I disagree about the press. There's a reason Odom was 8-9. That said I'm not saying Shaka's system is bad or that it won't pay dividends in the future when we have the right personnel. But we cannot overlook long stretches of time in games we have lost where good teams have exploited our traps. What I see is a team very capable of sound fundamental defense in the half-court. Where we struggle most is in transition and on the defensive glass. My belief is that solid teams generally get good shots versus our 2-2-1 and that we need to adapt.
We have a UCONN team coming in that laid an egg yesterday. I only watched the last few mins but I know they were like 8-30 from distance and couldn't score despite having a lot of weapons. I assume Sanogo is still out, we really need to take advantage. Regardless of my criticism I am very bullish on Shaka and our future. I think things will come around quickly and we will compete with every BEast team this year. It's the poise and execution where we have to ge better and hopefully we will. But I flat out disagree with scoopers that think our talent level is far inferior to the predicted top of our league. I've watched enough BEast teams and feel we have the pieces to be right there with all of them.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 19, 2021, 11:35:01 AM
If Kolek stays around 3 years he is going to be really good. I think over time the mistakes go down and the three point shooting will go up.
Exactly.
If Tyler's having the problems his senior year that he does now, his playing time will go down because Coach Smart will have recruited over him. Scoop probably will be carping, "Why doesn't Shaka play Kolek more?" as we break in a new point guard.
I agree with you. Coach Smart saw something in Tyler when he recruited him. It's his court sense, as others have pointed out, his hustle and his willingness to assume the roll as point guard. In my decades of following Marquette, I've seen more than my share of extremely talented basketball players who don't hold a candle to Tyler Kolek because they were, frankly, L-A-Z-Y!! This kid gets it and rather than bashing him for a decision most ballplayers would make similarly in that circumstance, let's commend his hustle and what he brings to the table.
I'm confident the shooting will come.
U
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 19, 2021, 11:55:12 AMI assume Sanogo is still out, we really need to take advantage.
I have read he will most likely return this week vs. MU or Xavier. I guess we will see!
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 19, 2021, 10:44:24 AM
I appreciated the resilience yesterday. Xavier could've put us away multiple times, but we wouldn't let them. The fouls really hurt. Not just the quantity, though a 10-0 foul disparity in a 15:01 stretch seems a bit ridiculous, but who they were on. Greg fouled out, Oso and Kolek were limited by fouls, and no one other than Tyler could reliably create.
Tyler reminds me a lot right now of upperclassman Junior Cadougan. A bit better defensively, don't really trust his shot, and turns it over too much, but also the only guy that can make a shot for anyone else on a team where not many guys can get their own shot.
Anyway...good performance in a tough environment. We're going to win some of these as the year goes on. eFG% defense was better, and was also good against UCLA. This team is improving. And we need to make some hay starting now. 5 of the next 7 at home, both road games look winnable. Need to build on a good performance and knock out some Ws.
We should get used to the foul disparity because it's going to happen the rest of the year playing against tough competition. We play too fast, jack up ill advised bad 3s very early in the shot clock, don't really have an inside presence and play an aggressive style defense that will get called for more fouls than most. Add to the fact that as a losing team, we will undoubtedly be forced to foul more.
I came away a little more discouraged after this game. We continue to play way too fast. We continue to chuck 3s when we are not a good 3-point shooting team. We can't rebound. I actually like our half-court defense, but teams easily get past our full court defense. I expected some more adjustments at this point in time. Limit the 3-point shooting early in the shooting clock if you can't step into the shot. You can shoot a contested 3 later in the shot clock with the same shooting efficiency. Adjust the defensive pressure such that teams like X don't have an easy pass to the middle at the top of the key. We were beat way too easily on that press and Odom had a career day. Where was our 4/5 playing that tighter? We actually play decent half-court defense. Rely on that and create opportunities for traps.
If it wasn't for Kolek's foul trouble, Elliott's minutes certainly would have been a lot less. If we are going to continue to chuck 3s, Elliott needs to be on the floor as much as possible. He is by far and away our best 3-point shooter. If our offensive philosophy is going to be the same and unchanged, then Elliott needs to start and play 30 plus minutes.
We are second in conference in 3 point attempts and 10th in 3pt %. Teams with similar 3 pt % in conference have shot about 7 less 3 pt attempts/game than us. Our best chance for increasing our 3 point % is to get more paint touches either by pass, or by dribble and with this team it is by dribble. Limit some player's 3-point shooting privileges and figure out ways to get Elliott more looks.
I'm hoping for the best but expecting a battle to finish out of the cellar.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 19, 2021, 10:46:03 AM
This is the way I look at yesterday's game:
1) Next year, this is a game that, all things being equal, we win. We lost this one because of our youthfulness going up against a very battle hardened team. As I said earlier, we'll learn.
2) I don't get all the Kolek criticism. The guy plays his heart out every time he hits the floor. He had an open shot and took it. In retrospect, probably not a good idea, but out of 100 of us, how many would have done exactly the same thing. I doubt Coach Smart got down on Kolek for taking the shot.
3) Suppose Kolek passed to someone else and they missed? This board would be going nuts on Kolek for passing up an open shot. Probably just as angry.
4) The most disappointing aspect to yesterday -- and I'm sure our players and coaches agree -- is that we need to steal one or two to make it to the NCAAs this year. Yesterday was a great chance to steal one on the road against a very good team, and we did not complete the heist.
Brother dgies I guess most people here have not listened to Shaka's presser, one of the first things he says is he wants Kolek to take that shot every time.
Quote from: Big Papi on December 19, 2021, 01:56:48 PM
We should get used to the foul disparity because it's going to happen the rest of the year playing against tough competition. We play too fast, jack up ill advised bad 3s very early in the shot clock, don't really have an inside presence and play an aggressive style defense that will get called for more fouls than most. Add to the fact that as a losing team, we will undoubtedly be forced to foul more.
I came away a little more discouraged after this game. We continue to play way too fast. We continue to chuck 3s when we are not a good 3-point shooting team. We can't rebound. I actually like our half-court defense, but teams easily get past our full court defense. I expected some more adjustments at this point in time. Limit the 3-point shooting early in the shooting clock if you can't step into the shot. You can shoot a contested 3 later in the shot clock with the same shooting efficiency. Adjust the defensive pressure such that teams like X don't have an easy pass to the middle at the top of the key. We were beat way too easily on that press and Odom had a career day. Where was our 4/5 playing that tighter? We actually play decent half-court defense. Rely on that and create opportunities for traps.
If it wasn't for Kolek's foul trouble, Elliott's minutes certainly would have been a lot less. If we are going to continue to chuck 3s, Elliott needs to be on the floor as much as possible. He is by far and away our best 3-point shooter. If our offensive philosophy is going to be the same and unchanged, then Elliott needs to start and play 30 plus minutes.
We are second in conference in 3 point attempts and 10th in 3pt %. Teams with similar 3 pt % in conference have shot about 7 less 3 pt attempts/game than us. Our best chance for increasing our 3 point % is to get more paint touches either by pass, or by dribble and with this team it is by dribble. Limit some player's 3-point shooting privileges and figure out ways to get Elliott more looks.
I'm hoping for the best but expecting a battle to finish out of the cellar.
I don't think Shaka is going to change his coaching style he chose to go with this year unless wheels completely fall off, so get use to fast pace, 3's any time available, not a lot of midrange baskets, and almost no back to basket paint touches....
It's not surprising that Shaka is telling Kolek to keep shooting. Several of us said as much earlier this season.
I respectfully disagree with the coach that the shot in question was a good one.
Quote from: panda on December 19, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
And x went on a 6-0 run.
So what? You said they didn't let us back in the game. They clearly did.
Quote from: MU82 on December 19, 2021, 02:13:49 PM
It's not surprising that Shaka is telling Kolek to keep shooting. Several of us said as much earlier this season.
I respectfully disagree with the coach that the shot in question was a good one.
He is getting $$$ to make those decisions. In Shaka I trust, Shaka wants a fast pace and when 3's are available to take them. I didn't think it was a bad shot and had he made it everyone here would be saying how clutch of a PG he was. Probably nominated for STOG if it led to us winning.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 19, 2021, 02:22:19 PM
He is getting $$$ to make those decisions. In Shaka I trust, Shaka wants a fast pace and when 3's are available to take them. I didn't think it was a bad shot and had he made it everyone here would be saying how clutch of a PG he was. Probably nominated for STOG if it led to us winning.
If Greg had made his shot,
he'd have been the hero. If we had been able to stop Odom instead of letting him score triple his average, our defense would have been the reason we won. If Xavier had a lot of guys with Covid we'd have won by forfeit.
Tyler didn't make the shot -- it was a brick that was nowhere near going in. Statistically, he's the worst shooter on the team overall (.273) and second-worst from 3 (.218 - OMP's at .211). With a tiny bit of patience, we could have had several better shots on that possession; we also were in the bonus.
I'm still glad Tyler's on the team, and I think he'll be a good player for us.
Scooper: picks team to win 8 conference game.
Also scooper: shocked and furious when team loses conference game.
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on December 19, 2021, 03:30:11 PM
Scooper: picks team to win 8 conference game.
Also scooper: shocked and furious when team loses conference game.
Outraged!
Quote from: MU82 on December 19, 2021, 03:13:30 PM
If Greg had made his shot, he'd have been the hero. If we had been able to stop Odom instead of letting him score triple his average, our defense would have been the reason we won. If Xavier had a lot of guys with Covid we'd have won by forfeit.
Tyler didn't make the shot -- it was a brick that was nowhere near going in. Statistically, he's the worst shooter on the team overall (.273) and second-worst from 3 (.218 - OMP's at .211). With a tiny bit of patience, we could have had several better shots on that possession; we also were in the bonus.
I'm still glad Tyler's on the team, and I think he'll be a good player for us.
Ok, but I'm just saying Kolek is doing what the coach wants.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 19, 2021, 05:37:11 PM
Ok, but I'm just saying Kolek is doing what the coach wants.
Coach wants us to lose games?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 19, 2021, 11:55:12 AM
We're all entitled to our opinion but I disagree about the press. There's a reason Odom was 8-9.
I can't believe that I am doing, but so far the only thing as consistent as nolongerwarriors whining incessantly about Shaka being hired is Muggsy whining about the press. Okay, and also maybe in that same consistency level is Kolek missing from three (I kid, I kid).
So let's look at the "reason Odom was 8-9."
1st Half - 15:55 left. Odom scores off a steal and direct drive. No press set up.
1st Half - 6:28 left. Long three point rebound. Xavier presses but cannot get a quick basket and gets into their half-court offense where Odom takes his man off the dribble and scores. No press set up.
1st half - 4:49 left. Long three point rebound. Marquette elects not to press and falls into half court defense. There is a non-shooting foul and Xavier in-bounds into half-court set. Odom again takes his man off the dribble and scores. No press set up.
1st half - 4:38. Marquette sloppy pass bringing it up in the back court. Odom steals and scores. No press set up.
1st half - 4:14. Marquette misses a bunny. Rebound to Xavier and Marquette falls back into half-court defense. Another non-shooting foul against Marquette. Inbounded to Odom who drives between three Marquette players and scores. No press set up.
2nd half - 14:52. Marquette sets up its press after made free throws. Xavier advances it to Odom who takes advantage before Marquette can settle into its half-court defense off the press and makes the basket. Press set up. Odom scores off Xavier beating the press.
2nd half - 10:49. Free throws for Odom. Importantly, this play comes off a Marquette miss and rebound. Xavier pushes it up court quickly and Odom drives drawing the foul (he lowered his shoulder in my opinion). No press set up.
2nd half - 10:10. Marquette makes a basket and sets up press. After Xavier crosses mid court, Marquette falls back into half-court defense. Odom quickly takes his man off the dribble and scores. Press set up. In my opinion, the score is not off "beating the press" but in half-court, though it's quick.
2nd half - 9:24. Steal in back-court by Odom. Xavier resets and plays against Marquette's half-court defense. Odom takes a (super ugly looking but uncontested) three point shot and misses (hallelujah). No press set up.
2nd half - 8:09. Marquette misses a three pointer leading to a long rebound and Xavier runout. Good Marquette defense forces Xavier to pull up and reset against Marquette's half-court defense. Odom takes it from the top, drives and stops in the middle of the key and makes a tough floater (again). No press set up.
Muggsy is right; we are all entitled to our opinions. But let's not use false memories and false facts to support those opinions.
Odom was 8-9. 22% of his attempts and makes came off of situations where Marquette set up the press. I would argue that only 12% of his makes came directly as a result of breakdown in the press.
So, now we know the "reason Odom was 8-9" and it had nothing to do with the press, and everything to do with (a) a super hot shooting night - he made several tough shots - and (b) the inability of our guys to defend Odom one on one in, believe it or not, our half-court set.
I have just taken way too much time on this - and had some fun with it over a glass of Balvenie mind you - but I simply could not take the "we need to adapt and not press" drum beat especially when buttressed by a false factual narrative any longer.
A couple final thoughts:
1. Muggsy I know you're coming from the right place but maybe take up the practice of meditation. It will help slow you down. At times, even coming from a good place, the 100mph rants can become a bit unbearable. Slow down, sniff the flowers, and take a moment to take in the big picture, which for me right now, is a rejuvenated Marquette basketball world without the apathy of the Wojo era (and I really wanted him to succeed as I do all of MU's players and coaches).
2. This team is going to be frustrating to watch this year. But they're making progress. They are young, inexperienced, and have a lot of growing up to do, both physically and mentally. But to be within 1 with around 2 to play, away from home for the first time in conference, at maybe the Big East's best team this year, is a testament to their continuing growth and their resolve. I like this group. It may not be this year (though emotionally I can be suckered into "believing") but the building blocks are there.
Now, I will go back in my cave and hide. Perhaps a nice cognac will follow the scotch.
Nice recap, Cam.
Quote from: MUCam on December 19, 2021, 06:14:33 PM
I can't believe that I am doing, but so far the only thing as consistent as nolongerwarriors whining incessantly about Shaka being hired is Muggsy whining about the press. Okay, and also maybe in that same consistency level is Kolek missing from three (I kid, I kid).
So let's look at the "reason Odom was 8-9."
1st Half - 15:55 left. Odom scores off a steal and direct drive. No press set up.
1st Half - 6:28 left. Long three point rebound. Xavier presses but cannot get a quick basket and gets into their half-court offense where Odom takes his man off the dribble and scores. No press set up.
1st half - 4:49 left. Long three point rebound. Marquette elects not to press and falls into half court defense. There is a non-shooting foul and Xavier in-bounds into half-court set. Odom again takes his man off the dribble and scores. No press set up.
1st half - 4:38. Marquette sloppy pass bringing it up in the back court. Odom steals and scores. No press set up.
1st half - 4:14. Marquette misses a bunny. Rebound to Xavier and Marquette falls back into half-court defense. Another non-shooting foul against Marquette. Inbounded to Odom who drives between three Marquette players and scores. No press set up.
2nd half - 14:52. Marquette sets up its press after made free throws. Xavier advances it to Odom who takes advantage before Marquette can settle into its half-court defense off the press and makes the basket. Press set up. Odom scores off Xavier beating the press.
2nd half - 10:49. Free throws for Odom. Importantly, this play comes off a Marquette miss and rebound. Xavier pushes it up court quickly and Odom drives drawing the foul (he lowered his shoulder in my opinion). No press set up.
2nd half - 10:10. Marquette makes a basket and sets up press. After Xavier crosses mid court, Marquette falls back into half-court defense. Odom quickly takes his man off the dribble and scores. Press set up. In my opinion, the score is not off "beating the press" but in half-court, though it's quick.
2nd half - 9:24. Steal in back-court by Odom. Xavier resets and plays against Marquette's half-court defense. Odom takes a (super ugly looking but uncontested) three point shot and misses (hallelujah). No press set up.
2nd half - 8:09. Marquette misses a three pointer leading to a long rebound and Xavier runout. Good Marquette defense forces Xavier to pull up and reset against Marquette's half-court defense. Odom takes it from the top, drives and stops in the middle of the key and makes a tough floater (again). No press set up.
Muggsy is right; we are all entitled to our opinions. But let's not use false memories and false facts to support those opinions.
Odom was 8-9. 22% of his attempts and makes came off of situations where Marquette set up the press. I would argue that only 12% of his makes came directly as a result of breakdown in the press.
So, now we know the "reason Odom was 8-9" and it had nothing to do with the press, and everything to do with (a) a super hot shooting night - he made several tough shots - and (b) the inability of our guys to defend Odom one on one in, believe it or not, our half-court set.
I have just taken way too much time on this - and had some fun with it over a glass of Balvenie mind you - but I simply could not take the "we need to adapt and not press" drum beat especially when buttressed by a false factual narrative any longer.
A couple final thoughts:
1. Muggsy I know you're coming from the right place but maybe take up the practice of meditation. It will help slow you down. At times, even coming from a good place, the 100mph rants can become a bit unbearable. Slow down, sniff the flowers, and take a moment to take in the big picture, which for me right now, is a rejuvenated Marquette basketball world without the apathy of the Wojo era (and I really wanted him to succeed as I do all of MU's players and coaches).
2. This team is going to be frustrating to watch this year. But they're making progress. They are young, inexperienced, and have a lot of growing up to do, both physically and mentally. But to be within 1 with around 2 to play, away from home for the first time in conference, at maybe the Big East's best team this year, is a testament to their continuing growth and their resolve. I like this group. It may not be this year (though emotionally I can be suckered into "believing") but the building blocks are there.
Now, I will go back in my cave and hide. Perhaps a nice cognac will follow the scotch.
Okay......I'll try to chill out a bit.
I came into this season expecting little-
New coach, new system and a slew of new guys.
How many of they dudes played alongside each other before, save Justin, Greg and Oso?
Time to learn- time to gel- and time to get it all together.
The fact that we've been (mostly) competitive against 'superior' teams bodes well in the hunt to steal a few we shouldn't.
There's talent here- but I'm not discouraged or disappointed one bit.
If this was 2023, I might have a different assessment- not now however.
Quote from: TVDirector on December 19, 2021, 08:39:51 PM
I came into this season expecting little-
New coach, new system and a slew of new guys.
How many of they dudes played alongside each other before, save Justin, Greg and Oso?
Time to learn- time to gel- and time to get it all together.
The fact that we've been (mostly) competitive against 'superior' teams bodes well in the hunt to steal a few we shouldn't.
There's talent here- but I'm not discouraged or disappointed one bit.
If this was 2023, I might have a different assessment- not now however.
+1
Quote from: TVDirector on December 19, 2021, 08:39:51 PM
I came into this season expecting little-
New coach, new system and a slew of new guys.
How many of they dudes played alongside each other before, save Justin, Greg and Oso?
Time to learn- time to gel- and time to get it all together.
The fact that we've been (mostly) competitive against 'superior' teams bodes well in the hunt to steal a few we shouldn't.
There's talent here- but I'm not discouraged or disappointed one bit.
If this was 2023, I might have a different assessment- not now however.
Yep. I know they sound like excuses, but they're also facts.
Even guys who played a lot last season have different roles. Morsell averaged 9 points over 4 seasons; we need him to be more of a scorer. Kolek was an A-10 2-guard last season; we need him to be an efficient PG; when healthy, Lewis was at most our 3rd scoring option last season; now he's our lead guy. Elliott barely played for 4 years; now we need him to be our go-to shooter. And like you say, none of them had played together before now.
It's actually gone a little better than I expected ... and I'm a pretty optimistic Scooper.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 19, 2021, 09:14:01 AM
I thought that most of the comments on the game thread were, more than usually, hyper critical. There were only a few that acknowledged our team's successes for much of the first half and the second half comeback. I get the right to criticize but come on guys-some of that sh*t was really over the top.
(https://c.tenor.com/Ls8YoO0fwWcAAAAC/star-wars-you-will-never-find-a-more-wretched-hive-of-scum.gif)
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on December 19, 2021, 03:30:11 PM
Scooper: picks team to win 8 conference game.
Also scooper: shocked and furious when team loses conference game.
On the road no less to the best current NET team in the conference. And weren't outclassed athletically.
There is upside folks. Analyze the season in thirds. Not game by game. First third we did well. Second third started with a loss. Lots of data to still gather.
Quote from: Goose on December 19, 2021, 08:48:09 AM
It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.
I agree with this analysis