Forgive us our Cintas.

[panda]

No.  You're wrong.  Or show me where I'm  in error.

I've already proven that 5 freshman absolutely count against our experience (his blog).  So at least one of my two things absolutely does count (you said both don't).

I'm also pretty sure that because Marquette classified Sophs as Fosh (and other schools didn't) that they also get "zero" experience points.  Prove me wrong.  Otherwise you're zero for two.

[MuggsyB]

Man are you going to be like this every game?

Anyway this is how Shaka is playing. And I think it's fine.

What are you talking about?  I'm analyzing what happened, that's all.

[panda]

Losing Kolek really hurt us. We just don't get great spacing and open lions with him off the floor. Mitchell was just abused off the bounce too. That was the biggest shift and what ultimately lost us the game.

[The Sultan]

No.  You're wrong.  Or show me where I'm  in error.

I've already proven that 5 freshman absolutely count against our experience (his blog).  So at least one of my two things absolutely does count (you said both don't).

I'm also pretty sure that because Marquette classified Sophs as Fosh (and other schools didn't) that they also get "zero" experience points.  Prove me wrong.  Otherwise you're zero for two.

https://twitter.com/totally_t_bomb/status/1467308663438286848?s=20

Bart TBasketballrvik
@totally_t_bomb
Random note: "experience" numbers on my site used to be based just on listed year of eligibility, but this year that's kind of messed up with the extra Covid year, so I'm counting actual years played...


Oops.

[panda]

Some perspective is needed here as well. Losing two in a row is tough, but a loss to a borderline top 5 team and staying extremely competitive on the road with who is probably the best team in the BE is nothing to panic about.

This team will be fine.

[rocky_warrior]

https://twitter.com/totally_t_bomb/status/1467308663438286848?s=20

Bart TBasketballrvik
@totally_t_bomb
Random note: "experience" numbers on my site used to be based just on listed year of eligibility, but this year that's kind of messed up with the extra Covid year, so I'm counting actual years played...


Oops.

But that's Torvik (I honestly don't see experience numbers on Torvik's site, if you can point me to it, thanks!).  To my knowledge, TAMU is quoting pomeroy numbers, and I linked to his blog.  kenpom is just using "classification", as far as I can tell.

But also, if you want to talk torvik experience, explain this?
https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2022&p=Olivier-Maxence%20Prosper&t=Marquette

edit:  OK, using your twitter link I got to his experience graph, and using all of D1, it looks like we're in the bottom 1/3.  But near the top of that.  So we're not 351??? See attached.  We are in the bottom of the BE though, I'll give TAMU that.  11 of 11!

edit 2: Found it on Torvik's site.  Go here, and pull down sort by "experience".  MU lands at 284.  I can believe that #.
https://barttorvik.com/team-tables_each.php

[panda]

We can argue experience or lack there of till the cows come home. I didn't see any lack of poise or cohesion from a new/young team tonight. Xavier just is more talented and would not let us back into the game in the second half.

[The Sultan]

But that's Torvik (I honestly don't see experience numbers on Torvik's site, if you can point me to it, thanks!).  To my knowledge, TAMU is quoting pomeroy numbers, and I linked to his blog.  kenpom is just using "classification", as far as I can tell.

But also, if you want to talk torvik experience, explain this?
https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2022&p=Olivier-Maxence%20Prosper&t=Marquette

Explain what? 

Anyway, I said class year listed by the school doesn't matter
You said I was wrong and linked to Tovik's site
I provided a tweet from Torvik that backs up what I said.

So you were wrong.  And yet you are still trying to be right? 

[rocky_warrior]

So you were wrong.  And yet you are still trying to be right?

See my edits.  Not wrong.  Found it on Torvik's site.  284 of 358.  Not exactly 351.

FWIW, TAMU claimed 351 as an irrefutable fact.  I refuted.  You intervened.

Explain what? 

Anyway, I said class year listed by the school doesn't matter
You said I was wrong and linked to Tovik's site
I provided a tweet from Torvik that backs up what I said.

You said neither factored into Kenpom's rankings...and that was wrong.

Neither one of those things factor into Kenpoms experience rankings though.

[MU82]

We have people here who think a team that only returned one starter, one sporadic bench guy and one guy who played 10 seconds last season should be putting some kind of finished product on the floor. And that if we lose to ranked teams that are huge favorites against us, it's the coach's fault.

Some of us said months ago that it wouldn't be easy to actually win games this season. Heck, look at my tagline -- Shaka said it himself, and he said it repeatedly, and it wasn't just coach-speak.

We have no go-to guy, a PG who played 2G in the A-10 last season, a guy who has never scored now expected to be a scoring leader, a guy who spent most of his first 4 seasons at Marquette injured now carrying the mantle as the only shooter on the team, etc, etc, etc.

And despite all that, we just lost a close game to a top-25 team on the road.

We will have a lot of games like this. Hopefully, we'll win some of them, but it's simply not the most important thing about this season IMHO.

The UConn game looks winnable. It looks very lose-able, too. That's what we've got this season.

As for this game ...

++ I didn't mind Greg's shot with us down 1. He got a good look, he's a very good shooter, and he had just hit a nice shot and 3 FTs. Kolek's absolute brick with us down 3 was brutal. You could see he was thinking about shooting the whole time, and it was a horrific decision by our floor general. Hopefully, he'll learn from this.

++ We let their non-shooting little guy just take us apart on his drives. It was like watching Tiny Archibald out there. Of the not-good things that happened out there today, that was No. 1 on my list.

++ Kam really wants to be the hero. By the time he's done at Marquette, he'll hit some big shots. He already has.

++ I like how we competed. We are overachieving. I'm still hopeful that we'll be better in February and March.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

See my edits.  Not wrong.  Found it on Torvik's site.  284 of 358.  Not exactly 351.

FWIW, TAMU claimed 351 as an irrefutable fact.  I refuted.  You intervened.

You said neither factored into Kenpom's rankings...and that was wrong.

Well actually I us said being young is an irrefutable fact, which is true. But you do seem to be correct. I made the mistake of assuming that KenPom universally counted COVID years the same way and at least from what I can tell, that doesn't seem to be the case (which is really stupid). I'm confident that even if everyone was counted the same way, we would still be among the bottom 75 teams.

One thing though, you implied that it was just because we had a bunch of freshmen on or bench. The calculation weights players' score based on minutes played.

We are also 339th/346 in minutes continuity. So regardless of how old we are, we have a bunch of guys who have never played together before learning to play together. (The reason it's 346 not 357 is because all 8 ivy league teams, Bethune Cookman, and Maryland Eastern Shore have a score of 0 because they all sat out last season and St. Thomas has a score of 0 because they weren't D1 last season.

[tower912]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBo7ohHhNnY

Shaka's press conference. 

[Milkshakes]

Muggsy, this game was decided when Xavier decided to attack the basket hard off the dribble with their upperclassmen against MU's young guys.   They won this game due to number of free throws.   Big, strong, experienced team at home.

You can Karen all you want.   Shaka's defensive trademark is pressure.    The only way  it stops, IMO, is if he doesn't have the bodies.

This.  The refs were not unfair. X has big strong experienced guys who drove to the hoop. Our frosh just are not strong enough yet to defend that consistently without fouling.  No criticism just facts. That will change.

My only concern is on the other end we stand around outside the arc and jack up 3's. No driving towards the hoop. Frustrating.  Changed a little in the second half. Not enough. Also, still wish TK would go to the hoop some of the time when he is in the paint. He could draw fouls and get to the line. It will also prevent teams from guarding the pass.  Teams are going to get better at doing that against us as they know TK is only going to put the layup up once or twice a game.

[tower912]

Xavier's zone froze MU for a few possessions in the first half.   As did Kolek's foul trouble.   He is the one guy in MU who can consistently get in the paint and create for others.

[Daniel]

100% right on.  Morsell also had a lazy cross court pass that got taken the other way for a layup.  Brutal play from a vet.

Yes those lazy passes cost us a lot and there is zero excuse for lazy passes.   Those turnovers are available and costly.

[rocky_warrior]

Well actually I us said being young is an irrefutable fact, which is true. But you do seem to be correct. I made the mistake of assuming that KenPom universally counted COVID years the same way and at least from what I can tell, that doesn't seem to be the case (which is really stupid). I'm confident that even if everyone was counted the same way, we would still be among the bottom 75 teams.

One thing though, you implied that it was just because we had a bunch of freshmen on or bench. The calculation weights players' score based on minutes played.

We are also 339th/346 in minutes continuity. So regardless of how old we are, we have a bunch of guys who have never played together before learning to play together. (The reason it's 346 not 357 is because all 8 ivy league teams, Bethune Cookman, and Maryland Eastern Shore have a score of 0 because they all sat out last season and St. Thomas has a score of 0 because they weren't D1 last season.

Appreciate the clarification,. As I mentioned earlier, I don't dispute the that MU is a young / inexperienced team with a new system.  Bottom 10 seemed wrong.  The interaction with Fluff annoyed me, but he did share Torvik's twitter link which lead to the more accurate number!

[JakeBarnes]

Some perspective is needed here as well. Losing two in a row is tough, but a loss to a borderline top 5 team and staying extremely competitive on the road with who is probably the best team in the BE is nothing to panic about.

This team will be fine.

Get out of here with these rational takes.


I agree though.

[Goose]

It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

We can argue experience or lack there of till the cows come home. I didn't see any lack of poise or cohesion from a new/young team tonight. Xavier just is more talented and would not let us back into the game in the second half.

We were down 1 with the ball with a couple of minutes left....

[MU82]

It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.

Agree, Goose. I'll take it one step further and say we will be competitive in most games.

Our weaknesses have been well-documented, but we do have tough-minded, hard-working athletes and a good coach, and the Big East does not appear to have any "great" teams this season. We will need to shoot well, keep our key guys out of foul trouble, avoid live-ball turnovers -- all the usual stuff any team needs to succeed but more because our margin of error is so thin. A little luck would be nice, too!

[rocky_warrior]

A little luck would be nice, too!

Hey, MU is top 50 (#46) and 2nd in the BE in luck.  Your wish is granted

[Scoop Snoop]

It was a game they had a chance to win and did not get done. X is much better team than MU and that is life at the moment. The fact they clawed back and had a chance to win is encouraging. The sloppy unforced turnovers is discouraging. All said and done, it was not a game that anyone with sanity thought we were going to win going into and they made it a competitive game. If they can be competitive at X, it gives me confidence they can be competitive in a lot of games.

This is where I am at also. Greg's 3 pointer to bring us to being only one point down gave me hope that we could somehow pull off the upset. To come back like that, even only briefly, against a very good Xavier team on their home court is really impressive. I thought that most of the comments on the game thread were, more than usually, hyper critical. There were only a few that acknowledged our team's successes for much of the first half and the second half comeback. I get the right to criticize but come on guys-some of that sh*t was really over the top.   

[panda]

We were down 1 with the ball with a couple of minutes left....

And x went on a 6-0 run.

[The Sultan]

And x went on a 6-0 run.

Right. But they most definitely "let us back in the game."  Unless you are saying that down 1 and with the ball isn't "in the game."

[MuggsyB]

I agree that thete are positives to take from this game but I'm not big fan of moral victories.  I also disagree that X was a much better team yesterday and we only had that one opportunity late until Kolek threw up that unadvised triple. Additionally I think X's zone  was god awful and the reason it was effective was because we missed wide open shots both  inside and out.

Here are the facts:

MU was in control of the game early and made 4 threes.  Once we got a nice cushion Xavier punched back to their credit.

In the midst of Xavier coming back and seemingly controlling the game by the end of the first half, MU missed 5 point blank shots.  When you add Odom and others getting uncontested lay-ups after shredding our press, we're talking about a very quick and substantial swing in the game.  In lieu of being down 2 at the half we absolutely should have had s significant cushion.  8 pts minimum. 

Obviously the start of the 2nd half was a complete s-show.  Multiple poor decisions, bad shot selection, wild turnovers.  The game easily could have gotten away from us but our guys battled to their credit. Kolek played very well yesterday and his foul trouble hurt us.  GE kept us in the game with his shot-making .  We generally played from behind but could never get over the hump after they went up double digits. 

All this said it is my contention that for the majority of the game our press was ineffective and directly led to us never being able to seize momentum.  They scored way too easily numerous times in the 2nd half when we got it to 6, 5, or 4.  Bunny, after bunny, after bunny, or a 46% three point shooter getting wide open corner shots.  And if I'm wrong about this point why did we ditch the press at about the 6 min mark? 

I simply do not understand why we have to trap teams with superior quickness.  That doesn't mean I don't think we can and it will work against certain teams or with the right personnel, but don't tell me it was a net positive yesterday or other times in the season because it hasn't been.