Inspired by the recruiting thread, and I believe we've had this thread before but it's still a fun topic, what are your biggest Marquette "What ifs?"
For me it's easily "What if Dominic James hadn't broken his foot?" While flawed, that team was awesome and was on a roll. 23-4, 12-2 in the Big East (one of the losses being a 1 point loss at South Florida...yuck) going into the UConn game. UConn ranked #2 in the country. My memory might be way off, but I remember it happening mid game and being in a real battle with them up to the point that he got injured.
For some it's "What if ODB never transfers out." To me, you made a Final Four anyways, and you got smoked by Kansas. If anything, he could've taken minutes or shots away from guys who had huge moments earlier in the Tournament (like Novak and Diener) and maybe the run never even happens with him on the roster.
What if Larry Williams and Pilarz didn't replace Wild and Cottingham?
Jay Whitehead's elbow.
What if we could build a time machine and go back to 1977? That would be awesome
What if Crean lands Iman Shumpert?
What if Buzz let Kris Dunn come to his dream school?
What if Wojo didn't land Ellenson?
James is the biggest for me since I was in school at the time.
Some other ones I've picked up on are:
What if Al never retired?
- it sounded like there were some major Illinois recruits that wanted to play for Al like Isiah Thomas and Terry Cummings. Maybe Mark Aguirre.
What if we hired Denny Crum instead of Hank?
-It sounded like there were some legendary coaches interested when Al retired.
Jeremy Lamb.
Joe Wolf.
Majerus neats UNC and stays.
Jim Chones leaving has to be up there.
What if Vander doesn't leave?
What if we landed Charles Matthews?
James not breaking his foot is big but that team was very small and got worked by a slightly above average Dayton team and good Tennessee team already and we hadn't played any of the toughest big East teams yet so I had some concerns.
What if Rowsey's trash talk didn't ruin ben simmons?
Father Wild didn't make it a priority to reinvest in basketball in the mid to late 90's.
Quote from: jfp61 on September 29, 2021, 10:34:12 AM
What if Rowsey's trash talk didn't ruin ben simmons?
Lol. That was awesome. Dorris Burke calling him a walkon.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 29, 2021, 10:18:28 AM
James is the biggest for me since I was in school at the time.
Some other ones I've picked up on are:
What if Al never retired?
- it sounded like there were some major Illinois recruits that wanted to play for Al like Isiah Thomas and Terry Cummings. Maybe Mark Aguirre.
What if we hired Denny Crum instead of Hank?
-It sounded like there were some legendary coaches interested when Al retired.
Your first three points are spot-on. And had we gotten Thomas, Aguirre, and Cummings MU would at minimum have 2 more titles. :)
Quote from: BLM on September 29, 2021, 09:47:39 AM
For me it's easily "What if Dominic James hadn't broken his foot?" While flawed, that team was awesome and was on a roll. 23-4, 12-2 in the Big East (one of the losses being a 1 point loss at South Florida...yuck) going into the UConn game. UConn ranked #2 in the country. My memory might be way off, but I remember it happening mid game and being in a real battle with them up to the point that he got injured.
That's mine, easily. It happened relatively early in that UConn game, and MU fought like hell. AJ Price had a career night.
With DJ I think they win that game, beat UL and Cuse to end that season 15-3 and probably win one of the toughest versions of the Big East ever. Top 3 seed, still think they make a Final Four.
What if Al had no technicals called against him in the '74 Championship game.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 29, 2021, 10:20:03 AM
Jim Chones leaving has to be up there.
With Chones we could have beat UCLA that year and that is not an overstatement either.
I'll bring over the one I foolishly put in the recruiting thread as a response to another Scooper's post ...
What if Joey had picked Michigan State in the first damn place?
Wojo would have been crucified at first -- "How could you not get Sam's younger brother?" -- but Sam never would have left. The 2018-19 team still would have been very good -- and might not have fallen apart at the end because Joey wouldn't have been around to sulk, slump, commit turnovers and inspire the letter. And the 2019-20 team would have been excellent. Of course, our hearts would have been broken in 2020 the same way Dayton fans' hearts were, because COVID-19 canceled the tourney. And then the team still would have sucked last season, but maybe we'd still be stuck with Wojo because the two previous teams wouldn't have collapsed.
Also, what-ifs can go both ways, right?
What if Crean didn't work so hard to get Wade to Marquette? What if we hadn't hired Buzz as Crean's replacement because his resume was lacking? How would Crean and Buzz be remembered if we had lost to Holy Cross and Davidson, respectively? (Thank you, Travis and Vander for bailing us out!!)
What if #donedeal had been an actual #donedeal? Would Shaka still have abandoned his havoc style to chase the 5 stars to appease the P6 conference fanbase? Or would he have stuck to what got him to that point and continued Buzz's tough style of play at Marquette?
Quote from: BLM on September 29, 2021, 11:44:46 AM
What if #donedeal had been an actual #donedeal? Would Shaka still have abandoned his havoc style to chase the 5 stars to appease the P6 conference fanbase? Or would he have stuck to what got him to that point and continued Buzz's tough style of play at Marquette?
That's a real good one!
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 29, 2021, 10:18:28 AM
James is the biggest for me since I was in school at the time.
Some other ones I've picked up on are:
What if Al never retired?
- it sounded like there were some major Illinois recruits that wanted to play for Al like Isiah Thomas and Terry Cummings. Maybe Mark Aguirre.
What if we hired Denny Crum instead of Hank?
-It sounded like there were some legendary coaches interested when Al retired.
Denny Crum that is always my biggest what if.
What if Dwayne Johnson stayed academically eligible and we made the tournament , that has a sub element of What if we kept Rick
Denny Crum is biggest "what if" for me.
What if the Hauser brothers stayed?
What if we didn't get Dwyane Wade?
What if Crean had ponied up the 100k for the soccer fields?
What if my comment to Dean Smith (seeing him leaving the MECCA as I was leaving Major Goolsby's) after the heartbreaking loss that coincided with Al's return as a TV announcer—"see you in the NCAA tournament, Coach!"—had come true? Does Majerus stay?
what if Devin Harris hadn't spent his entire OV talking s--t about Travis and other members of the team and Crean didn't pull his offer at the request of the team? Harris, Diener, and Novak would have been one hell of a big three.
What if Hutch doesn't get injured then go to war with Deane in 1998 after we'd started 10-0? Does a third NCAA tourney get Deane more leeway and does LeDarryl Billingsley not renege on his verbal?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 29, 2021, 12:53:13 PM
what if Devin Harris hadn't spent his entire OV talking s--t about Travis and other members of the team and Crean didn't pull his offer at the request of the team? Harris, Diener, and Novak would have been one hell of a big three.
What if Hutch doesn't get injured then go to war with Deane in 1998 after we'd started 10-0? Does a third NCAA tourney get Deane more leeway and does LeDarryl Billingsley not renege on his verbal?
Lot of interesting stuff in this that I hadn't heard before. Why did Hutch go to was with Deane? Did Harris think he was just joking around?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 29, 2021, 01:42:27 PM
Lot of interesting stuff in this that I hadn't heard before. Why did Hutch go to was with Deane? Did Harris think he was just joking around?
Devin was a total prick back then.
I forget why Hutch and Deane butted heads, it's too bad. That team had some talent.
Quote from: MUfan12 on September 29, 2021, 02:45:43 PM
Devin was a total prick back then.
Ive mentioned before that Harris, as I want to say a sophomore at UW, threatened to "beat my a**", all 5'7 of my 16 year old self, for bumping into him as he was rushing out of a bathroom at my HS during a playoff VB game and saying "easy man". Him being a totally arrogant douche during his visit is the least surprising thing ever.
What if the "new" BE was never formed? Scary thought, huh?
What if we had gotten Bennet instead of Buzz?
My first thought was Jim Chones.
However, the biggest what if has to be: Hank Raymond's not turning down the invite to join the Big East.
The decision to remain an independent in hind site was a terrible decision.
What if we find out what happened with Quentin Grimes?
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 29, 2021, 03:53:19 PM
What if we find out what happened with Quentin Grimes?
Ask Herm, he was there for his official visit
My dark horse "what if" is Ladaryl Billingsley not backing out and going to Tulane. Would have been a massive improvement of talent around Wardle, who knows if that would have prevented Crean and his era. However in the moment it was a pretty big blow to the program.
Quote from: bilsu on September 29, 2021, 03:51:19 PM
My first thought was Jim Chones.
However, the biggest what if has to be: Hank Raymond's not turning down the invite to join the Big East.
The decision to remain an independent in hind site was a terrible decision.
Is this legit or an urban legend? Holy Cross was invited and turned them down. Nova was invited in their place. Penn State was rejected for membership in 1982 but Pitt accepted. I haven't seen anything to indicate MU was ever invited, especially considering it was the late 70's and every team could bus within the conference footprint.
Quote from: MU82 on September 29, 2021, 11:30:09 AM
What if Joey had picked Michigan State in the first damn place?
What if? Not a whole lot would change.
The 2018-19 team wouldn't have been as good as it was and would have been rolled in the tournament's first round by a different, higher seeded team than Murray St. Wojo would have been fired the same time he was fired and people who care about Marquette basketball would breath a collective sigh of relief.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 29, 2021, 05:52:08 PM
Is this legit or an urban legend? Holy Cross was invited and turned them down. Nova was invited in their place. Penn State was rejected for membership in 1982 but Pitt accepted. I haven't seen anything to indicate MU was ever invited, especially considering it was the late 70's and every team could bus to league games within the conference footprint.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 29, 2021, 12:53:13 PM
what if Devin Harris hadn't spent his entire OV talking s--t about Travis and other members of the team and Crean didn't pull his offer at the request of the team? Harris, Diener, and Novak would have been one hell of a big three.
What if Hutch doesn't get injured then go to war with Deane in 1998 after we'd started 10-0? Does a third NCAA tourney get Deane more leeway and does LeDarryl Billingsley not renege on his verbal?
Ooooh, the Harris comment is spot on.
I know a girl he dated in HS and he was the biggest a$$hole, and it caused a rift between her and her parents that's lasted to this day. Just a horrible person.
If James Breeding would have had the intestinal fortitude to eject Myles Powell in the first half for his Flagrant 1?
What if MU kept football would we be a P5 school?
What if everybody stayed for post game on Senior Day? Would scoopers bitch about something else.....
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 29, 2021, 08:20:13 PM
What if MU kept football would we be a P5 school?
Not a chance.
Quote from: We R Final Four on September 29, 2021, 08:27:05 PM
What if everybody stayed for post game on Senior Day? Would scoopers bitch about something else.....
It's the one home game I get to most years. I love celebrating and honoring the seniors (and hanging with my old MU crew). I prefer the post-game ceremony and always stayed throughout. Pre-game ceremonies suck.
What if Joe Wolf stayed in state?
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 29, 2021, 12:01:22 PM
Denny Crum that is always my biggest what if.
What if Dwayne Johnson stayed academically eligible and we made the tournament , that has a sub element of What if we kept Rick
Denny Crum is urban legend. He was very successful at UL at the time. It was Hanks job from day 1.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 29, 2021, 07:08:40 PM
What if? Not a whole lot would change.
The 2018-19 team wouldn't have been as good as it was and would have been rolled in the tournament's first round by a different, higher seeded team than Murray St. Wojo would have been fired the same time he was fired and people who care about Marquette basketball would breath a collective sigh of relief.
You very well might be right about all of this.
I still wish that Joey had gone where he actually wanted to go from the beginning, and that Sam had played all 4 years of his fine college career for my alma mater.
What if Marquette had never dropped football and was playing a major college schedule at American Family Field?
Conference-wise, MU would probably be in the AAC along the lines of a Cincinnati, who plays at Notre Dame this week. So what would that have meant (favorable or unfavorable) for basketball?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 29, 2021, 07:08:40 PM
What if? Not a whole lot would change.
The 2018-19 team wouldn't have been as good as it was and would have been rolled in the tournament's first round by a different, higher seeded team than Murray St. Wojo would have been fired the same time he was fired and people who care about Marquette basketball would breath a collective sigh of relief.
I disagree. You're absolutely right about the 18-19 team not being as good, however I think it's not necessarily a given they get rolled in the first round. The tournaments all about matchups and so that's never a given.
The 19-20 team would've been exponentially better than we got though.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on September 29, 2021, 09:16:33 PM
What if Marquette had never dropped football and was playing a major college schedule at American Family Field?
Conference-wise, MU would probably be in the AAC along the lines of a Cincinnati, who plays at Notre Dame this week. So what would that have meant (favorable or unfavorable) for basketball?
hindsight is 20/20 but MU shoulda found a way to keep football. Even if we were playing today at the level of Gtown, Nova, StJ, Dayton, I'd think we all would take it. And who knows...would anyone have thought UW would have the run they've had considering their decades of suck? btw, a what-if...supposedly MU was on Patrick Ewing's final 3.
F football. Glad we dumped it
My original post that goes this rolling , was what if Gabe Levin stayed and played with Henry and Luke. That would have beenh one heckuva of a productive front line. Gabe improved significantly his last two years.
Top few "What Ifs" in My Lifetime with thoughts:
1) What If.... Ric Cobb had hit both free throws with one second left in the 1969 Mideast Regional Final against Purdue?
Easy, we would have gone to the Final Four for the first time. Al likely would have been a legend even earlier and we would have been poised for a 10 year run as a Final Four participant. The emotional impact of Rick Mount 20 foot jumper in overtime to beat us by two was significant.
2) What if... Marquette had not been penalized for playing basketball while being African American in Georgia in 1971?
Probably would have gone to the Final Four. That team was loaded. But the Ohio State game in Athens, Georgia was the only one in his career where Dean Meminger fouled out.
3) What if... Jim Chones stayed for the entire year?
We would have been national champions in 1972.
4) What if ... Neither Larry McNeill or Jim Chones would have turned pro?
We probably would have had a three year run as national champions. In 1973, we would have had a front line of Chones, McNeill and a young Maurice Lucas.
5) What if ... Al had not picked up two technicals in the national championship game against North Carolina State?
Nothing, we probably would have lost that game anyway. David Thompson of NC State was Michael Jordan's equal. What drugs did to him was sad.
6) What if ... The NCAA had waited until after the Michigan game to decided whether Marquette would be invited to the 1977 championship tournament.
There would have been no 1977. We lost that game to Michigan at Crisler Arena. At that time, we were the team with one of the worst records ever invited to the NCAA.
7) What if ... Marquette had not been cheap and stupid when Al resigned?
We would have conducted a national search for Al's replacement. The often rumored Denny Crum story might have played out. Or, a relative unknown from the U.S. Military Academy, a guy named Coach K from the Bob Knight coaching tree, might have joined us. While there were no guarantees on any of this, we may well have found the next Al somewhere. Instead, we went with a guy we passed over in 1964.
8) What if ... Rick Majerus was ready when Marquette hired him?
Much of the 1980s and 1990s probably never would have happened. With a couple of recruiting wins here and there, Majerus would have taken us to the heights he took Utah -- and would have been with us until he retired or died.
9) What if .. We hadn't fired Wojo?
Chances are we would have held on to DJ Carton and Dawson Garcia for another year. The team would have been, on paper, one of the better teams in the Big East. But Wojo's coaching style would have left us a middle of the pack team and probably barely in the NCAA, where we would have lost our first game.
Interestingly enough, on Question 9, what if Wojo had acceded to demands to hire a bench coach who could put a spark in the Xs and Os and help design a more cohesive offense and defense? With a true Hank Raymonds type on the bench, Wojo might have started a run that would have built on recruiting success and led us to renewed prominence in college basketball. Unfortunately, the man was too stubborn at the wrong time.
What if Al took the Bucks job in '69.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 30, 2021, 07:24:30 AM
What if Al took the Bucks job in '69.
Best one of the thread. If I remember correctly, he said he wanted it at the time too. What a seismic turn our basketball history would have taken had it happened.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 30, 2021, 07:24:30 AM
What if Al took the Bucks job in '69.
We would probably be a D3 program
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 30, 2021, 07:24:30 AM
What if Al took the Bucks job in '69.
Different times. Different values.
Back then, a contract as a contract. Father Raynor reminded Al of that when he said no.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 29, 2021, 12:53:13 PM
what if Devin Harris hadn't spent his entire OV talking s--t about Travis and other members of the team and Crean didn't pull his offer at the request of the team? Harris, Diener, and Novak would have been one hell of a big three.
Sure, he would would have been nice to have in 03-04, but would he have played nice during the Wade years? Between him, Diener, and Wade, a very talented player is getting fewer touches than they'd like/deserve. Basically, someone is the Wes Matthews of that scenario.
I started at MU in 2006 so pretty much all of the major "what if's" during my time have been mentioned but another big one is what if Otule doesn't break his knee vs Washington at MSG? That team was loaded and could've used a true big man vs Florida in the tournament.
Also, speaking of Washington. What if Jimmy could've stopped Pondexter just once in the 2010 tournament. If I recall we would've had a cake walk to the elite 8
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 30, 2021, 08:19:29 AM
Different times. Different values.
Back then, a contract as a contract. Father Raynor reminded Al of that when he said no.
...but what if Fr. Raynor said we wish Al all the best in his new endeavor.
What if a 3-way with Lisa and Gail, hey?
Quote from: swoopem on September 30, 2021, 08:34:41 AM
I started at MU in 2006 so pretty much all of the major "what if's" during my time have been mentioned but another big one is what if Otule doesn't break his knee vs Washington at MSG? That team was loaded and could've used a true big man vs Florida in the tournament.
Also, speaking of Washington. What if Jimmy could've stopped Pondexter just once in the 2010 tournament. If I recall we would've had a cake walk to the elite 8
Cake walk to Sweet 16, we would've played that WVU team that beat us at the buzzer around New Years that year. Though yeah that one drive is still the most painful choke in my memory.
I do agree about that 2012 team since we at least would've had some height down low though as rough as it was with Young destroying us down there it was Beal that showed why DJO and Vander were borderline NBA players.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 30, 2021, 09:03:54 AM
What if a 3-way with Lisa and Gail, hey?
You'd have been as lost then as you are now, aina?
What if Crean figured out a zone, and MU played IU in the Elite 8 instead of Syracuse?
Yes, they had Dipo and Zeller, but I think MU wins that game.
What if Scooter McCray and Rodney had come to MU, not sure how we lost him $$ to Louisville.
Quote from: BCHoopster on September 30, 2021, 11:00:49 AM
What if Scooter McCray and Rodney had come to MU, not sure how we lost him $$ to Louisville.
If only MU didn't supply Kleenex in Scooter's dorm room during his official.
Quote from: MUfan12 on September 30, 2021, 10:58:21 AM
What if Crean figured out a zone, and MU played IU in the Elite 8 instead of Syracuse?
Yes, they had Dipo and Zeller, but I think MU wins that game.
Agreed on this. Or what if we didn't shoot record low % that day?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 30, 2021, 08:49:55 AM
...but what if Fr. Raynor said we wish Al all the best in his new endeavor.
He would have been sent on a Jesuit mission to outer Mongolia to minister to shepherds and reflect on the awful sacrilege he had committed.
What if we had never changed our name from Warriors?
Quote from: The Thing on September 30, 2021, 12:27:18 PM
What if we had never changed our name from Warriors?
Scoop traffic would be down 50% and the mods wouldn't be living their life of luxury.
Other than that, not much.
Quote from: The Thing on September 30, 2021, 12:27:18 PM
What if we had never changed our name from Warriors?
We'd have won every national championship since 94 and every 5 star recruit would be lining up to commit to marquette, and those that couldn't get a scholarship would beg to be walk ons.
What if: Kevin O'Neill had stayed?
This one is intriguing. Coach O'Neill rebuilt Marquette basketball from a low mid-major to a power to be reckoned with. Excellent recruiter, solid bench coach and proven winner. Coach O'Neill was coming off his best run, an NCAA sweet 16, inclusive of a nasty thumping to Kentucky and a close game with Duke when the Tennessee Volunteers came calling.
As I understand, O'Neill later acknowledged he didn't realize how good a gig he had at Marquette. Had he stayed, the revolving door of coaches that continues to the present moment might never have happened. Coach O'Neill would have built on his 1990s success in both recruiting and performance, and built our Warriors back into a preeminent national power. Reasonably confident O'Neill could have built on his recruiting success and attracted four and five star players back to Marquette.
Contrarians would have argued that O'Neill ultimately would have left for Arizona once Lute Olsen retired. Possibly true, given that had his success at MU been consistent and growing, Arizona would have fought to get him. Other contrarians would argue that Coach O'Neill was a flash in the pan and never replicated his Marquette success at Tennessee, Northwestern, USC or in the NBA. Perhaps, but it sure would have been fun to watch.
Love KO for turning around an absolutely sinking MU program, but he had a losing record at every other stop excluding the one year he filled in at AZ with Lute's players. IMO, that many chances and consistently below .500 results are an accurate barometer of KO's overall recruiting and coaching ability.
He was the right guy at the right time for MU, but his lack of success elsewhere leads me to believe he would have had the same poor trajectory over time at MU.
And his success at MU was basically due to one great recruiting class.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 30, 2021, 01:28:04 PM
Love KO for turning around an absolutely sinking MU program, but he had a losing record at every other stop excluding the one year he filled in at AZ with Lute's players. IMO, that many chances and consistently below .500 results are an accurate barometer of KO's overall recruiting and coaching ability.
He was the right guy at the right time for MU, but his lack of success elsewhere leads me to believe he would have had the same poor trajectory over time at MU.
Question I have though is whether his roaming nature and professed desire to replace Lute worked against him. I really thought if he'd stayed at Tennessee for the long-haul, he would have established himself and built something akin to what he was doing at Marquette. But, as I understand, he was in a fourth position in the Tennessee sports hierarchy behind football, spring football and women's basketball. That and the fact that unlike Uncle Phil (Fulmer) or Pat Summit, he was not a son or daughter of Tennessee.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 30, 2021, 01:33:42 PM
And his success at MU was basically due to one great recruiting class.
Though Deane's success was tied to KO's recruits like Miller, Pieper, Crawford, Amal, and Hutch.
A related what if: What if Will Gates doesn't rip up his knee in high school?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 30, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Though Deane's success was tied to KO's recruits like Miller, Pieper, Crawford, Amal, and Hutch.
A related what if: What if Will Gates doesn't rip up his knee in high school?
Yes that's a good point.
It seems strange to say in retrospect, but KO was considered one of the best recruiters in the country when MU landed him.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 30, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Though Deane's success was tied to KO's recruits like Miller, Pieper, Crawford, Amal, and Hutch.
A related what if: What if Will Gates doesn't rip up his knee in high school?
This, if KO had stayed it's reasonable to expect that we'd have been better in the immediate future given what Deane achieved with those guys but I doubt we hit what Crean and Buzz brought us.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 29, 2021, 11:54:34 PM
2) What if... Marquette had not been penalized for playing basketball while being African American in Georgia in 1971?
Probably would have gone to the Final Four. That team was loaded. But the Ohio State game in Athens, Georgia was the only one in his career where Dean Meminger fouled out.
That was a tough one, toughest loss of my life next to Holmgren's Super Bowl fiasco. IT WAS RIGGED! We could have gone all the way.
Quote from: Mutaman on September 30, 2021, 02:02:35 PM
That was a tough one, toughest loss of my life next to Holmgren's Super Bowl fiasco. IT WAS RIGGED! We could have gone all the way.
What people often forget is that Marquette was a pioneer in college basketball. McGuire thought nothing of having a team full of diverse, colorful and sometimes disruptive players. If they were African American, who the heck cared? Just win, baby!
Unfortunately, if we played anywhere in the south, lots of people cared way too much about the color of our team's skin. I am firmly convinced that the core of the nastiness between Adolph Rupp and Al McGuire had to do with McGuire's commitment to African-American players. Marquette had recruited African Americans a full decade before Kentucky and Rupp had some high profile losses to us. Rupp was a big deal then in NCAA basketball circles and his Kentucky Wildcats ruled the southeast.
The Ohio State game was in Athens, GA. The first African-American player in the SEC was Perry Wallace and he had graduated Vanderbilt just a year prior. Plus, the referees in that part of the country were not used to seeing or calling the kind of basketball we played. They were used to the finesse ball then played in the SEC.
When you mix ignorant racism with ignorant officiating and a "get 'em" attitude by one of the nation's best known basketball coaches (who had been embarrassed by an all-African American team a few years earlier in the NCAA Championship), you get what happened to us in Athens, GA that night. It was one of the more disgusting displays of bigotry in a sporting event I've ever seen.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 30, 2021, 04:01:50 PM
What people often forget is that Marquette was a pioneer in college basketball. McGuire thought nothing of having a team full of diverse, colorful and sometimes disruptive players. If they were African American, who the heck cared? Just win, baby!
The Ohio State game was in Athens, GA. The first African-American player in the SEC was Perry Wallace and he had graduated Vanderbilt just a year prior. Plus, the referees in that part of the country were not used to seeing or calling the kind of basketball we played. They were used to the finesse ball then played in the SEC.
Didn't Ohio State (the school that gave us Jesse Owens) also have Black players on their team? Jim Clemons was one of them. The Big Ten and other northern schools (Loyola, when you look at 1963) had racially diverse rosters, it wasn't just MU.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 30, 2021, 09:03:54 AM
What if a 3-way with Lisa and Gail, hey?
You could have filmed that and gotten a lot of views/$$ from a P@rn site
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 30, 2021, 04:01:50 PM
What people often forget is that Marquette was a pioneer in college basketball. McGuire thought nothing of having a team full of diverse, colorful and sometimes disruptive players. If they were African American, who the heck cared? Just win, baby!
Unfortunately, if we played anywhere in the south, lots of people cared way too much about the color of our team's skin. I am firmly convinced that the core of the nastiness between Adolph Rupp and Al McGuire had to do with McGuire's commitment to African-American players. Marquette had recruited African Americans a full decade before Kentucky and Rupp had some high profile losses to us. Rupp was a big deal then in NCAA basketball circles and his Kentucky Wildcats ruled the southeast.
The Ohio State game was in Athens, GA. The first African-American player in the SEC was Perry Wallace and he had graduated Vanderbilt just a year prior. Plus, the referees in that part of the country were not used to seeing or calling the kind of basketball we played. They were used to the finesse ball then played in the SEC.
When you mix ignorant racism with ignorant officiating and a "get 'em" attitude by one of the nation's best known basketball coaches (who had been embarrassed by an all-African American team a few years earlier in the NCAA Championship), you get what happened to us in Athens, GA that night. It was one of the more disgusting displays of bigotry in a sporting event I've ever seen.
Al recruited the best players . They happened to be predominately African - American. There were many other schools who had African American players at that time, and had lousy records . Check out Michigan State during the period Al was coach for one.
I know the predominant story line of the Ohio State game was that Dean got a lot of bad calls. Which was true . However , one other truth was that if he had made his free throws, we would have won.
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 30, 2021, 04:29:40 PM
Al recruited the best players . They happened to be predominately African - American. There were many other schools who had African American players at that time, and had lousy records . Check out Michigan State during the period Al was coach for one.
I know the predominant story line of the Ohio State game was that Dean got a lot of bad calls. Which was true . However , one other truth was that if he had made his free throws, we would have won.
Herm, I agree with almost everything you said. And, yes, Ohio State had at least one African American player. I'd also note hat many other schools, particularly those in the south, also committed to recruiting the best — until it crossed the color line.
True, in a tournament you have to plan on playing a perfect game. Dean the Dream wasn't exactly the world's best shooter. We didn't lose that game by much, one point comes to mind. So, yes, any free throw would have mattered.
As bad as that game was, I nonetheless argue that you play the hand you are given and we didn't so that in Athens. Just like we didn't a rather later against Miami of Ohio in Indianapolis.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 30, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
Herm, I agree with almost everything you said. And, yes, Ohio State had at least one African American player. I'd also note hat many other schools, particularly those in the south, also committed to recruiting the best — until it crossed the color line.
True, in a tournament you have to plan on playing a perfect game. Dean the Dream wasn't exactly the world's best shooter. We didn't lose that game by much, one point comes to mind. So, yes, any free throw would have mattered.
As bad as that game was, I nonetheless argue that you play the hand you are given and we didn't so that in Athens. Just like we didn't a rather later against Miami of Ohio in Indianapolis.
Actually if we're going to do what if's then what if Al was around in 78? Or if Hank was competent during this game?
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 30, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
Herm, I agree with almost everything you said. And, yes, Ohio State had at least one African American player. I'd also note hat many other schools, particularly those in the south, also committed to recruiting the best — until it crossed the color line.
True, in a tournament you have to plan on playing a perfect game. Dean the Dream wasn't exactly the world's best shooter. We didn't lose that game by much, one point comes to mind. So, yes, any free throw would have mattered.
As bad as that game was, I nonetheless argue that you play the hand you are given and we didn't so that in Athens. Just like we didn't a rather later against Miami of Ohio in Indianapolis.
Having been at Market Square in 78 . I can confirm that our team is as poorly coached . Never should have come close to losing that game.
OK... What if... We had not collapsed against Miami of Ohio in March 1978?
In 1978, we were defending national champions. Butch Lee, Bernard Toone, Ulice Payne, Gary Rosenberger, Jerome Whitehead and Jim Boylan all were back from our 1977 team. We blew through our schedule like a hot knife through butter, Marquette University "Meet me in St. Louis (site of the national championships)" t-shirts were everywhere. There was a sense on campus that we were ordained to play Kentucky for the national championship a few weeks later.
Miami of Ohio probably played the best game in its school history. We went to overtime and lost 84-81 in what arguably was the worst loss in our school history. Bar none. Hank lost control of the team, we had flagrant fouls against Whitehead and Bernard Toone fouled out. We never should have been even close to Miami, much less allow them into the game. The loss started the downward spiral in Marquette's fortunes that took us from national champions to Bob Dukiet. We have yet to recover, though obviously we've had shining moments along the way.
On top of that, the lost tournament revenue from failure to get out of the first round was enormous.
Had we escaped Indianapolis that day with a win, we may well have won our regional. We would have felt good we dodged a bullet and moved on, probably beating our next opponent and the next. Whether we could have beaten Kentucky in that year's natty was a question never to be answered, though it would have been interesting if we'd drawn Notre Dame either in the Final Four or regional final.
Some would argue maybe our recruiting would have been different if we'd won. Perhaps Hank would have shown himself a worthy successor to Al. The McCrays or perhaps Mark Aguirre might have come to Marquette to continue the excellence. Combined with Oliver Lee and Sam Worthen, we would have reloaded and gone into the 1980s on a wave. Hank would have been a coach of the year candidate and he'd stuck around long enough for Majerus to be ready. Maybe we would not have been as good as we were in the 1970s, but good fortune would have continued flowing to us.
If you believe that, well, I'll sell you a bridge linking San Francisco and Marin County on the cheap.
The reality was and is that recruiting is the mother's milk of college basketball. Marquette passed over Hank in 1964 for Al for a reason and it became readily apparent why in 1978 -- and beyond. Hank couldn't hold a candle to Al's recruiting and when left with a big core of Al's team, he didn't get the job done on the court either. The university reportedly started becoming cheap and when its peers were investing in high quality, even luxurious athletic centers, Marquette continued to use the Old Gym. Rather than fighting, Hank caved. He was a great man and a very special human being. But he never should have become head basketball coach.
In short, the world left Marquette behind in the 1980s. We might have delayed the inevitable but it was going to happen as long as we kept down the path we started in 1978 and the administration wasn't willing to do what it took to be a national power in basketball.
Anybody disagree?
Okay, I'm going to be that guy. It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans. 'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say. It assumes a lot about a person. Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American". I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.
We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is. Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.
IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.
Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 01, 2021, 06:33:07 AM
Okay, I'm going to be that guy. It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans. 'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say. It assumes a lot about a person. Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American". I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.
We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is. Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.
IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.
Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.
This all has nothing to do with this topic, but a good post and I agree.
Africa is a continent.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 01, 2021, 06:33:07 AM
Okay, I'm going to be that guy. It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans. 'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say. It assumes a lot about a person. Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American". I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.
We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is. Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.
IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.
Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.
Brother Hutch:
Thanks, I will then. I'm just following convention and I inherently know you're right.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 30, 2021, 11:12:50 PM
OK... What if... We had not collapsed against Miami of Ohio in March 1978?
In 1978, we were defending national champions. Butch Lee, Bernard Toone, Ulice Payne, Gary Rosenberger, Jerome Whitehead and Jim Boylan all were back from our 1977 team. We blew through our schedule like a hot knife through butter, Marquette University "Meet me in St. Louis (site of the national championships)" t-shirts were everywhere. There was a sense on campus that we were ordained to play Kentucky for the national championship a few weeks later.
Miami of Ohio probably played the best game in its school history. We went to overtime and lost 84-81 in what arguably was the worst loss in our school history. Bar none. Hank lost control of the team, we had flagrant fouls against Whitehead and Bernard Toone fouled out. We never should have been even close to Miami, much less allow them into the game. The loss started the downward spiral in Marquette's fortunes that took us from national champions to Bob Dukiet. We have yet to recover, though obviously we've had shining moments along the way.
On top of that, the lost tournament revenue from failure to get out of the first round was enormous.
Had we escaped Indianapolis that day with a win, we may well have won our regional. We would have felt good we dodged a bullet and moved on, probably beating our next opponent and the next. Whether we could have beaten Kentucky in that year's natty was a question never to be answered, though it would have been interesting if we'd drawn Notre Dame either in the Final Four or regional final.
Some would argue maybe our recruiting would have been different if we'd won. Perhaps Hank would have shown himself a worthy successor to Al. The McCrays or perhaps Mark Aguirre might have come to Marquette to continue the excellence. Combined with Oliver Lee and Sam Worthen, we would have reloaded and gone into the 1980s on a wave. Hank would have been a coach of the year candidate and he'd stuck around long enough for Majerus to be ready. Maybe we would not have been as good as we were in the 1970s, but good fortune would have continued flowing to us.
If you believe that, well, I'll sell you a bridge linking San Francisco and Marin County on the cheap.
The reality was and is that recruiting is the mother's milk of college basketball. Marquette passed over Hank in 1964 for Al for a reason and it became readily apparent why in 1978 -- and beyond. Hank couldn't hold a candle to Al's recruiting and when left with a big core of Al's team, he didn't get the job done on the court either. The university reportedly started becoming cheap and when its peers were investing in high quality, even luxurious athletic centers, Marquette continued to use the Old Gym. Rather than fighting, Hank caved. He was a great man and a very special human being. But he never should have become head basketball coach.
In short, the world left Marquette behind in the 1980s. We might have delayed the inevitable but it was going to happen as long as we kept down the path we started in 1978 and the administration wasn't willing to do what it took to be a national power in basketball.
Anybody disagree?
I think the question should be phrased in what if?
What if MU wasn't cheap?
If MU wasn't cheap there would still be a football team
If MU wasn't cheap there would still be a Medical School
If MU wasn't cheap Al would not have quick for a few bucks from Medalist Industries
Of course the irony is MU is no longer cheap .
Quote from: Herman Cain on October 01, 2021, 08:40:03 AM
I think the question should be phrased in what if?
What if MU wasn't cheap?
If MU wasn't cheap there would still be a football team
If MU wasn't cheap there would still be a Medical School
If MU wasn't cheap Al would not have quick for a few bucks from Medalist Industries
Of course the irony is MU is no longer cheap .
Brother Herm:
If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.
The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 01, 2021, 09:00:20 AM
Brother Herm:
If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.
The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.
Has anyone done a rough analysis of our fan base or even scoop users to see if there's a significant drop off in fans or users that come from 83-92, 98-02, or Wojo years?
I mean it's fair to say that if you attended MU from 02-13 you bought into the hype train, we had draft picks, NBA players, etc etc.
93-97 I'd imagine there's a decent bit of support as we had a few draft picks, decent few NBA players (Smith, Mac, Crawford, Amal, Doc), one tournament run, couple conference championships and a fun NIT run.
Al years are obvious and while Hank was a downgrade I'd imagine the fresh championship and fact that we were still making the tournament makes it somewhat of an extension.
dgies
1000% correct. Your post is spot on.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 01, 2021, 09:38:49 AM
Has anyone done a rough analysis of our fan base or even scoop users to see if there's a significant drop off in fans or users that come from 83-92, 98-02, or Wojo years?
I mean it's fair to say that if you attended MU from 02-13 you bought into the hype train, we had draft picks, NBA players, etc etc.
93-97 I'd imagine there's a decent bit of support as we had a few draft picks, decent few NBA players (Smith, Mac, Crawford, Amal, Doc), one tournament run, couple conference championships and a fun NIT run.
Al years are obvious and while Hank was a downgrade I'd imagine the fresh championship and fact that we were still making the tournament makes it somewhat of an extension.
I'm not directing this at you Galway, but just using your quote.
Personally, I appreciate the Al era, but I don't even consider that era to be modern basketball. So many rules have changed and college basketball is an entirely different sport than it was. We revere Al around here because he was a bad ass mother focker. I'd definitely hesistate to call us a 'former blue blood' though. We were a powerhouse under one coach for about a decade. I'd compare the success under Al to Nolan Richardson at Arkansas or Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV. No one wanted to play Arkansas in the late 80s - early 90s, or UNLV in the 80s-90s. Those programs have had mixed success since these coaches departed. Certainly no one would consider either of them former blue bloods either.
The difference between Al and a lot of coaches is that Al was smart enough to go out on top.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 01, 2021, 10:23:56 AM
I'm not directing this at you Galway, but just using your quote.
Personally, I appreciate the Al era, but I don't even consider that era to be modern basketball. So many rules have changed and college basketball is an entirely different sport than it was. We revere Al around here because he was a bad ass mother focker. I'd definitely hesistate to call us a 'former blue blood' though. We were a powerhouse under one coach for about a decade. I'd compare the success under Al to Nolan Richardson at Arkansas or Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV. No one wanted to play Arkansas in the late 80s - early 90s, or UNLV in the 80s-90s. Those programs have had mixed success since these coaches departed. Certainly no one would consider either of them former blue bloods either.
The difference between Al and a lot of coaches is that Al was smart enough to go out on top.
I've made this comparison before and got crucified for it and called too young to appreciate how good we were. Hope it goes better for you.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 01, 2021, 10:23:56 AM
I'm not directing this at you Galway, but just using your quote.
Personally, I appreciate the Al era, but I don't even consider that era to be modern basketball. So many rules have changed and college basketball is an entirely different sport than it was. We revere Al around here because he was a bad ass mother focker and he won a lot, including our alma mater's only championship. I'd definitely hesistate to call us a 'former blue blood' though. We were a powerhouse under one coach for about a decade. I'd compare the success under Al to Nolan Richardson at Arkansas or Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV. No one wanted to play Arkansas in the late 80s - early 90s, or UNLV in the 80s-90s. Those programs have had mixed success since these coaches departed. Certainly no one would consider either of them former blue bloods either.
The difference between Al and a lot of coaches is that Al was smart enough to go out on top.
FIFY.
There have been plenty of coaches in all sports who were/are considered "bad ass mother fockers." The ones who win are adored by their fans and often become national icons; the ones who don't go to the scrap heap of history and usually are mocked and/or reviled.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 01, 2021, 10:36:51 AM
I've made this comparison before and got crucified for it and called too young to appreciate how good we were. Hope it goes better for you.
I expect to be dragged for it, and it's fine. I think we both might have the luxury of being able to remove our emotions from the topic since we didn't live the era... allowing us to be a bit more objective. :-X
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 01, 2021, 09:00:20 AM
Brother Herm:
If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.
The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.
You completely ignore the changing landscape of college basketball and the impact football and TV revenue had on it. Many Catholic and private schools that were "powers" in the 50's, 60's and 70's have fallen behind the public schools with massive funding. Detroit, Bradley, Loyola, DePaul, San Francisco, Setattle U, Dayton, Ivy schools (Penn was in the 1979 Final Four), What was Michigan State before Magic then in much of the 80's? What was Texas and Oklahoma? How about Arizona and UConn? Baylor, and, I hate to say it, Bucky?
And no, one title, a NIT title (even with our revisionist history) and two Final Four appearances does not make MU a blue blood.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 01, 2021, 11:11:01 AM
You completely ignore the changing landscape of college basketball and the impact football and TV revenue had on it. Many Catholic and private schools that were "powers" in the 50's, 60's and 70's have fallen behind the public schools with massive funding. Detroit, Bradley, Loyola, DePaul, San Francisco, Setattle U, Dayton, Ivy schools (Penn was in the 1979 Final Four), What was Michigan State before Magic then in much of the 80's? What was Texas and Oklahoma? How about Arizona and UConn? Baylor, and, I hate to say it, Bucky?
And no, one title, a NIT title (even with our revisionist history) and two Final Four appearances does not make MU a blue blood.
True, many of the Catholic and other private schools that
were powers in CBB took quite a hit for the reasons you stated. Today's top CBB private schools are represented by Villanova, Gonzaga, Baylor (a private, not a public school) and, a step or two down, others like Xavier, Seton Hall, even Loyola etc. While Nova has proved that it can be done and hopefully Gonzaga will prove in April (but hey! private school Baylor won) , a NC for a private school is, today, a very tall order. Ignoring the enormous pull of cash cow FB and almost unlimited amount of money that the public schools can spend is not dealing with reality.
Private schools have won 4 (FIXED) of the last 6 championships. There was a long public university streak that preceded it and publics have dominated the championships overall.
edit: i just eyeballed the results (private listed out of obviously 10)...looks like its always been a certain way, but if you widen out to final fours maybe it tells a different story.
40s - 1
50s - 3 (although CCNY should be an honorary 4th)
60s - 3
70s - 1
80s - 2
90s - 2
00s - 2
10s - 4
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 01, 2021, 11:11:01 AM
You completely ignore the changing landscape of college basketball and the impact football and TV revenue had on it. Many Catholic and private schools that were "powers" in the 50's, 60's and 70's have fallen behind the public schools with massive funding. Detroit, Bradley, Loyola, DePaul, San Francisco, Setattle U, Dayton, Ivy schools (Penn was in the 1979 Final Four), What was Michigan State before Magic then in much of the 80's? What was Texas and Oklahoma? How about Arizona and UConn? Baylor, and, I hate to say it, Bucky?
And no, one title, a NIT title (even with our revisionist history) and two Final Four appearances does not make MU a blue blood.
I agree with this but I will add that Al doesn't get enough credit for being a major change agent in this shift. First, we know the history of Marquette jersey's as a national marketing tool. Second, being an independent, Marquette was on national TV frequently via independent sports syndicated networks whereas as conference media was local or regional with radio most prominent. Third, when Al switched to announcing, his emotional storytelling created characters that increased fan engagement: Ray Meyer, Digger, Magic vs. Bird, the coaches, the Syracuse dance, the sayings like The Big Dance, even Dicky V.
Thus, you see the Big East conference formed backed by TV, timed with cable. Uniform sales and marketing exploding and now we have NIL. Coaches as multi-millionaires (Al knew his worth and advocated for coaching tenure). The football conferences creating their own media assets, etc.
I honestly think only Dick Enberg gave Al his full due for being a visionary beyond his primary basketball job that we revere him for. His bigger contributions to the sport may have been as AD and announcer than basketball coach.
The biggest "what if" then is, after he left, MU completely whiffed on this sea change Al revolutionized. MU held the Golden Nugget but played the copper penny.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on October 01, 2021, 11:56:07 AM
Private schools have won 5 of the last 6 championships. There was a long public university streak that preceded it and publics have dominated the championships overall.
edit: i just eyeballed the results (private listed out of obviously 10)...looks like its always been a certain way, but if you widen out to final fours maybe it tells a different story.
40s - 1
50s - 3 (although CCNY should be an honorary 4th)
60s - 3
70s - 1
80s - 2
90s - 2
00s - 2
10s - 4
Good point regarding recent private school NC's. I forgot about Duke. I count 4 out of the last 6, ignoring 2020 and going back to 2015. Anyway, it's very encouraging.
Al McGuire didn't coach in the modern era of college basketball. Argue about what the modern era is. Post-Magic/Bird, expansion of TV coverage, March Madness expansion, whatever, but he retired at the end of an era or the beginning of the end.
Marquette's problem post-Al was trying to find the next Al. Find the next great coach. We're 45 years post-Al and we're still talking about him and some are trying to find another Al.
How about this for a What if? What if Mickey Crowe did not have a substance abuse problem and attended MU ?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on October 01, 2021, 11:56:07 AM
Private schools have won 4 (FIXED) of the last 6 championships. There was a long public university streak that preceded it and publics have dominated the championships overall.
edit: i just eyeballed the results (private listed out of obviously 10)...looks like its always been a certain way, but if you widen out to final fours maybe it tells a different story.
40s - 1
50s - 3 (although CCNY should be an honorary 4th)
60s - 3
70s - 1
80s - 2
90s - 2
00s - 2
10s - 4
also, look at if those private schools were Power 5 football schools. Hopefully we can join Nova and be an outlier.
Only two non-Power 5, non-football private schools have won national titles since MU did: Nova (3) and Georgetown (1). Only seven have lost title game since 1977: Georgetown (1982 and 1985), Seton Hall (1989), Butler (2010, 2011), Gonzaga (2017, 2021).
I consider the turning point was 1984 in NCAA v. Board or Oklahoma Regents, which allowed conferences to sell broadcast rights to football. That started the massive revenue streams to conferences.
Quote from: Herman Cain on October 01, 2021, 12:33:23 PM
How about this for a What if? What if Mickey Crowe did not have a substance abuse problem and attended MU ?
Pretty sure even if he was sober as a judge in all facets of life, he would have never been recruited by, much less attended MU. He was a one dimensional small-school/weak competition gunner whose legend and mystique far outstripped his actual college potential.
Much more Cam Ward than Sam Okey/Sam Dekker
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 01, 2021, 12:27:55 PM
Al McGuire didn't coach in the modern era of college basketball. Argue about what the modern era is. Post-Magic/Bird, expansion of TV coverage, March Madness expansion, whatever, but he retired at the end of an era or the beginning of the end.
Marquette's problem post-Al was trying to find the next Al. Find the next great coach. We're 45 years post-Al and we're still talking about him and some are trying to find another Al.
100%. And I consider the addition of the 3 point line to be modern basketball... that or the 1984 draft. You had big names like Magic and Bird, but then Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, and Stockton... followed quickly by the 1985 draft which had Ewing, Mullin, Malone (Karl), and Dumars.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 01, 2021, 12:40:32 PM
also, look at if those private schools were Power 5 football schools. Hopefully we can join Nova and be an outlier.
Only two non-Power 5, non-football private schools have won national titles since MU did: Nova (3) and Georgetown (1). Only seven have lost title game since 1977: Georgetown (1982 and 1985), Seton Hall (1989), Butler (2010, 2011), Gonzaga (2017, 2021).
I consider the turning point was 1984 in NCAA v. Board or Oklahoma Regents, which allowed conferences to sell broadcast rights to football. That started the massive revenue streams to conferences.
If we stop at final fours instead of championships, non power 5 private schools have been trending toward for representation for the past decade though.
1970s: Villanova, Notre Dame, Marquette x2, Depaul, Providence. St Bonaventure. Non football hitters Jacksonville, UNC Charlotte (no team back then), Penn
1980s: Georgetown x3, Seton Hall, St Johns, Villanova, Providence
1990s:
2000s: Us, Georgetown, Villanova, non football George Mason
2010s: Butler 2x, Loyola, Villanova 2x, Gonzaga. non football VCU & Wichita St
2020s: Gonzaga
it seems like at least making the final four is trending back toward being more likely for smaller schools compared to the lull in the 90s and 2000s.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 01, 2021, 06:33:07 AM
Okay, I'm going to be that guy. It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans. 'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say. It assumes a lot about a person. Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American". I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.
We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is. Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.
IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.
Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.
Totally agree. I had a friend years back who was from Trinidad, and was strongly opposed to being called African-American.
Granted, his ancestors probably got to Trinidad directly from Africa. But if you go back far enough, that can be said of everyone on the planet.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 01, 2021, 01:17:14 PM
100%. And I consider the addition of the 3 point line to be modern basketball... that or the 1984 draft. You had big names like Magic and Bird, but then Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, and Stockton... followed quickly by the 1985 draft which had Ewing, Mullin, Malone (Karl), and Dumars.
3-pt line and shot clock are a good demarcation as well. Things that were going to ruin the game
Quote from: GooooMarquette on October 01, 2021, 01:31:18 PM
Totally agree. I had a friend years back who was from Trinidad, and was strongly opposed to being called African-American.
Granted, his ancestors probably got to Trinidad directly from Africa. But if you go back far enough, that can be said of everyone on the planet.
There was a conversation on here awhile back about how people from North Africa shouldnt be checking the box for African American and people from Spain shouldn't be checking Hispanic. Whether you agree or disagree with that the conversation certainly showed that African American doesn't actually mean "African American" it refers to 5 & 6 on the Fitzpatrick scale.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 01, 2021, 01:25:04 PM
If we stop at final fours instead of championships, non power 5 private schools have been trending toward for representation for the past decade though.
1970s: Villanova, Notre Dame, Marquette x2, Depaul, Providence. St Bonaventure. Non football hitters Jacksonville, UNC Charlotte (no team back then), Penn
1980s: Georgetown x3, Seton Hall, St Johns, Villanova, Providence
1990s:
2000s: Us, Georgetown, Villanova, non football George Mason
2010s: Butler 2x, Loyola, Villanova 2x, Gonzaga. non football VCU & Wichita St
2020s: Gonzaga
it seems like at least making the final four is trending back toward being more likely for smaller schools compared to the lull in the 90s and 2000s.
Thanks for pointing out non FB public schools. By including them, I think you gave us a fairer comparison of private schools AND non FB public schools vs. the super rich big FB schools in the FF. Gasaway made a point of the FF desert in the 1990's for the Catholic schools in
Miracles on the Hardwood. I like his son's suggestion for the title better though-
Holy Shot!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 01, 2021, 01:39:19 PM
There was a conversation on here awhile back about how people from North Africa shouldnt be checking the box for African American and people from Spain shouldn't be checking Hispanic. Whether you agree or disagree with that the conversation certainly showed that African American doesn't actually mean "African American" it refers to 5 & 6 on the Fitzpatrick scale.
That may be true...but when some people who are called that are offended by the term, it might be time to retire it.
Anyway, we digress....
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 01, 2021, 09:00:20 AM
Brother Herm:
If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.
The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.
It wasn't that MU was cheap during much of this, but that they needed the cash. That was particularly the case with the Medical School, now Medical College of Wisconsin. If MU had a medical school we'd be a Top 50 university.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 01, 2021, 12:08:04 PM
I agree with this but I will add that Al doesn't get enough credit for being a major change agent in this shift. First, we know the history of Marquette jersey's as a national marketing tool. Second, being an independent, Marquette was on national TV frequently via independent sports syndicated networks whereas as conference media was local or regional with radio most prominent. Third, when Al switched to announcing, his emotional storytelling created characters that increased fan engagement: Ray Meyer, Digger, Magic vs. Bird, the coaches, the Syracuse dance, the sayings like The Big Dance, even Dicky V.
Thus, you see the Big East conference formed backed by TV, timed with cable. Uniform sales and marketing exploding and now we have NIL. Coaches as multi-millionaires (Al knew his worth and advocated for coaching tenure). The football conferences creating their own media assets, etc.
I honestly think only Dick Enberg gave Al his full due for being a visionary beyond his primary basketball job that we revere him for. His bigger contributions to the sport may have been as AD and announcer than basketball coach.
The biggest "what if" then is, after he left, MU completely whiffed on this sea change Al revolutionized. MU held the Golden Nugget but played the copper penny.
Here's how I see the various macro events in college basketball and their impact on MU over the years.
1. Decision to allow multiple teams from a conference in the NCAA tournament.
First, it obviously decreased NCAA chances for independents. Instead of MU competing against other independents for multiple NCAA bids, we were now going up against much stiffer competition in the form of the top non-tournament teams from other major conferences--many of which were better than the other top independents.
This had a secondary impact of encouraging schools that had been perennial also-rans in their conference to invest in their basketball program, as an NCAA bid as a non-champion was an achievable goal whereas a conference champion may not have been achievable (examples: Michigan State, Arizona).
Another secondary impact is that the best players widened the list of teams they would consider, as more teams could present themselves as legitimate tourhament teams. Take the example of Arizona. Prior to 1985, they had three tournament experiences in school history. Recruits knew that UCLA under Wooden (and even after) was going to get the Pac 10's bid, so if you wanted to play for a championship, you looked elsewhere. When Arizona could make the tournament without winning the league title, it opened them to be considered by more players.
2. The NCAA tournament expansion, increased television revenue, and the economic impact of receiving a bid
The NCAA's development of March Madness and the NCAA tournament exacerbated these trends from point #1 above. There was significantly more incentive for schools to take their basketball programs seriously, dramatically changing the competitive playing field to the detriment of Marquette and other smallish, private schools.
3. MU's approach to conferences compared to Xavier/Bulter/Gonzaga, etc.
MU took the approach that if we beefed up our schedule (through strong conference opponents), we would increase our chance of getting into the tournament as an at-large, non-champion team. Hence moving through the MCC, GMC, CUSA, old BE, newBE.
Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga all took the approach to leverage a weak conference and perennially earn the automatic bid from the MCC/Horizon, A10 or WCC.
Xavier and Butler obviously later joined the BE, but only after they became recognized as legitimate national powers. Gonzaga became a power in a weak conference, and they have separated themselves as an elite team. They didn't need a strong conference.
Also arguably, Butler (and to a lesser extent Xavier) have taken a step back in terms of overall tournament success after joining the Big East.
4. The Big East's massive TV contract
While many argue this has been positive for MU, I believe it has enabled non-competitive teams (Seton Hall, Providence, St. Johns) to dramatically increase their basketball investment, and thus become competitive and relevant. This has been good from a *conference* perspective but makes it harder for MU to stand apart from the rest of the league.
What if Jim Chones, Larry McNeil & Maurice Lucas all played together?
Quote from: alexius23 on October 01, 2021, 02:16:57 PM
What if Jim Chones, Larry McNeil & Maurice Lucas all played together?
Please see below from my What ifs....
4) What if ... Neither Larry McNeill or Jim Chones would have turned pro?We probably would have had a three year run as national champions. In 1973, we would have had a front line of Chones, McNeill and a young Maurice Lucas.As to the transition to the modern game, there were several horrible mistakes made by Marquette.
1) They thought the merry go round would never end. That Hank Raymonds and Al McGuire were interchangeable. Suffice to say, they weren't.
2) They didn't try hard enough to dissuade Al from retiring. He was his own guy but he also was the single most important employee of Marquette University, possibly in its history. If I'm Father Raynor, I'm in his office every week. I'm also figuring out a way to stay ahead of the curve.
3) Had Al stayed, he would have adapted. Dean Smith did. Coach K did. Denny Crum did. Even Digger did.
4) We should have built the Al Center a decade sooner than we did.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 01, 2021, 03:03:51 PM
We would have still had a three year run as national champions. In 1973, we would have had a front line of Walton, Swen and a young Dave Myers. Plus senior Jamaal Wilkes to their Chones McNeil and young Lucas
This is the UCLA version of this post.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 01, 2021, 03:09:51 PM
This is the UCLA version of this post.
Damn, that would have been a great game!
Quote from: The Equalizer on October 01, 2021, 01:57:06 PM
Here's how I see the various macro events in college basketball and their impact on MU over the years.
1. Decision to allow multiple teams from a conference in the NCAA tournament.
First, it obviously decreased NCAA chances for independents. Instead of MU competing against other independents for multiple NCAA bids, we were now going up against much stiffer competition in the form of the top non-tournament teams from other major conferences--many of which were better than the other top independents.
This had a secondary impact of encouraging schools that had been perennial also-rans in their conference to invest in their basketball program, as an NCAA bid as a non-champion was an achievable goal whereas a conference champion may not have been achievable (examples: Michigan State, Arizona).
Another secondary impact is that the best players widened the list of teams they would consider, as more teams could present themselves as legitimate tourhament teams. Take the example of Arizona. Prior to 1985, they had three tournament experiences in school history. Recruits knew that UCLA under Wooden (and even after) was going to get the Pac 10's bid, so if you wanted to play for a championship, you looked elsewhere. When Arizona could make the tournament without winning the league title, it opened them to be considered by more players.
2. The NCAA tournament expansion, increased television revenue, and the economic impact of receiving a bid
The NCAA's development of March Madness and the NCAA tournament exacerbated these trends from point #1 above. There was significantly more incentive for schools to take their basketball programs seriously, dramatically changing the competitive playing field to the detriment of Marquette and other smallish, private schools.
3. MU's approach to conferences compared to Xavier/Bulter/Gonzaga, etc.
MU took the approach that if we beefed up our schedule (through strong conference opponents), we would increase our chance of getting into the tournament as an at-large, non-champion team. Hence moving through the MCC, GMC, CUSA, old BE, newBE.
Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga all took the approach to leverage a weak conference and perennially earn the automatic bid from the MCC/Horizon, A10 or WCC.
Xavier and Butler obviously later joined the BE, but only after they became recognized as legitimate national powers. Gonzaga became a power in a weak conference, and they have separated themselves as an elite team. They didn't need a strong conference.
Also arguably, Butler (and to a lesser extent Xavier) have taken a step back in terms of overall tournament success after joining the Big East.
4. The Big East's massive TV contract
While many argue this has been positive for MU, I believe it has enabled non-competitive teams (Seton Hall, Providence, St. Johns) to dramatically increase their basketball investment, and thus become competitive and relevant. This has been good from a *conference* perspective but makes it harder for MU to stand apart from the rest of the league.
This is right-on. You manage for the environment you are in and expect to be in. The fact is we failed to read the tea leaves after Coach McGuire left us. I believe Al would have managed the change effectively. He had a strong network and excellent instincts.
Coach Raymond's was old school. He had a great coaching mind and was very fatherly to his players. He was not the visionary that would take Marquette through the 1980s. We needed a tough as steel, take no prisoners leader who could adapt and relate to the 1980s generation. We did not get it.
Thats in the past and we all hope we have the right guy now.
Here's hoping Shaka Smart is the man to figure out the moving target of the 2020s and NIL.