MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Macallan 18 on July 27, 2021, 10:07:29 AM
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A sign addressing systemic racism was recently removed from the Whitefish Bay Public Library grounds following vocal criticism from some in the community — including former Milwaukee Bucks player Steve Novak.
The sign, which was placed in a rock garden display outside the library by Bay Bridge Wisconsin — a group that focuses on "raising awareness of racial and cultural bias in our community" — described its vision for the North Shore suburb.
"Whitefish Bay will be a welcoming community that recognizes systemic racism, and actively works to address and dismantle it," the sign read. "How will you be a bridge in helping to repair and build a more equitable community?"
"There is an offensive sign posted in front of the public library that incorrectly generalizes our community. It says that Whitefish Bay recognizes systemic racism," Novak, who works as an analyst for the Bucks on Bally Sports Wisconsin (formerly Fox Sports Wisconsin), wrote in a June 8 email to Nyama Reed, the library's director. "What group has taken the liberty of speaking for our community in such a hateful, damaging and inaccurate way?"
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2021/07/26/whitefish-bay-library-removes-sign-addressing-systemic-racism/8016856002/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2021/07/26/whitefish-bay-library-removes-sign-addressing-systemic-racism/8016856002/)
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"inaccurate"??
Oh, IBTL
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In before the lock.
But also is anyone shocked a multi millionaire white guy from Libertyville -> Brown Deer wrote this? Take away the NBA pedigree and we'd just say it's par for the course
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https://www.grandforksherald.com/opinion/columns/7008709-Ben-Shapiro-The-circular-logic-of-systemic-racism (https://www.grandforksherald.com/opinion/columns/7008709-Ben-Shapiro-The-circular-logic-of-systemic-racism)
I agree with Steve. Not every person or community is inherently racist. Posting a sign like this conveys to me that the library is saying the police, and townfolk are racist, so come to the library to help stop this.
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Steve should ask John Henson how his watch shopping in WFB went.
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https://www.grandforksherald.com/opinion/columns/7008709-Ben-Shapiro-The-circular-logic-of-systemic-racism (https://www.grandforksherald.com/opinion/columns/7008709-Ben-Shapiro-The-circular-logic-of-systemic-racism)
I agree with Steve. Not every person or community is inherently racist. Posting a sign like this conveys to me that the library is saying the police, and townfolk are racist, so come to the library to help stop this.
What an awful article. I'm not saying he doesn't have a point in certain respects but if you can't see how singularly focused it is at proving a point you have to take some blinders off.
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This is bait.
I'll get the popcorn started.
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Steve should ask John Henson how his watch shopping in WFB went.
Bayshore is Glendale, FWIW
In before the lock.
But also is anyone shocked a multi millionaire white guy from Libertyville -> Brown Deer wrote this? Take away the NBA pedigree and we'd just say it's par for the course
You don't know much about Brown Deer do you? It was close to a third African American last census and probably has gotten moreso. Its a far cry from a lilywhite bourgeois suburb.
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Bayshore is Glendale, FWIW
Schwanke-Kasten is in WFB.
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Bayshore is Glendale, FWIW
You don't know much about Brown Deer do you? It was close to a third African American last census and probably has gotten moreso. Its a far cry from a lilywhite bourgeois suburb.
Only those I saw on the golf course there and have played hurling with and/or against at the park there. But I can see how that could be a skewed view relative to a greater community.
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Schwanke-Kasten is in WFB.
Yep.
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nm
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Very disappointing that a seemingly intelligent guy with a Marquette degree does not recognize that systemic racism exists in his town and every town.
Here is an amazing AP article on a KKK plot to murder a Black man. The Klansmen involved were prison employees -- representative of the far too many law enforcement personnel who are part of violent white supremacist groups. Oh, and this wasn't 1920 or 1946 or 1957 or 1966 or 1978. This was just a few years ago.
https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-business-race-and-ethnicity-racial-injustice-only-on-ap-2b4106de3ebcbfae85948439a7056031?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MorningWire_July27&utm_term=Morning%20Wire%20Subscribers
But yes, white people should be offended about attempts to recognize, address and dismantle systemic racism. Because white folks just can't get a break in America. We're the true victims.
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Honestly disappointed in reading this. There is nothing offensive about recognizing systemic racism and asking people how they can help.
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Recognizing Systemic Racism, (and making efforts to improve upon it) is “Offensive” to Steve.
Recognizing that Systemic Racism exists in Whitefish Bay (and making efforts to improve upon it) is also offensive to Steve.
Wow.
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Honestly disappointed in reading this. There is nothing offensive about recognizing systemic racism and asking people how they can help.
Its offensive to some, especially to those that dont believe in systemic RACISM in all persons,communities. Difference between have inherent biases or subconscious stereotyping. Big leap to going from that to racism.
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I don’t see what was offensive. The sign said that Whitefish Bay is a welcoming community that recognizes systemic racism, it didn’t even say anything about the community being guilty of systemic racism itself.
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Honestly disappointed in reading this. There is nothing offensive about recognizing systemic racism and asking people how they can help.
You're right, probably nothing wrong with the intent of the message.
My guess is Novak read it differently which is his right. My guess is that his behavior towards others that he interacts with is just fine. That said, many (not saying you TAMU) will overreact to this. 82 has already compared him to the KKK.
IBTL.
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You're right, probably nothing wrong with the intent of the message.
My guess is Novak read it differently which is his right. My guess is that his behavior towards others that he interacts with is just fine. That said, many (not saying you TAMU) will overreact to this. 82 has already compared him to the KKK.
IBTL.
Nads is the least racist person ever. He's so woke he gets up at 3 am daily to scour the internet for opinion pieces to share with us to validate his non-racism.
Sexism and misogyny are a different story, unfortunately.
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82 has already compared him to the KKK.
If that's what you got out of what I posted, you might have a problem.
Nads is the least racist person ever.
Thanks, Zig. Means a lot coming from you, though I don't know how one would measure that.
I don't think white folks are the victims, so I guess that makes me "less racist" than some.
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Its offensive to some, especially to those that dont believe in systemic RACISM in all persons,communities. Difference between have inherent biases or subconscious stereotyping. Big leap to going from that to racism.
I should have clarified. When I use the term offensive, I mean "insulting" not "don't agree with". The sign didn't even accuse anyone or anything of systemic racism, just acknowledged that it existed.
Inherent bias and subconscious stereotyping is part of systemic racism.
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Nads is the least racist person ever. He's so woke he gets up at 3 am daily to scour the internet for opinion pieces to share with us to validate his non-racism.
Sexism and misogyny are a different story, unfortunately.
Your second sentence is a lie. And your third is a bigger lie. And you actually edited your original post to insert those lies; what a sad, small person you are.
But you definitely would know about racism, given that you have said overtly racist things right here on Scoop.
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Schwanke-Kasten is in WFB.
You're totally right. In my head it was a store in the outdoor portion of Bayshore. My bad.
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Disappointed in Steve. Seems like a pretty good sign for a place that has been referred to as Whitefolks Bay for some time.
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Your second sentence is a lie. And your third is a bigger lie. And you actually edited your original post to insert those lies; what a sad, small person you are.
But you definitely would know about racism, given that you have said overtly racist things right here on Scoop.
Still waiting for you to recap all of the racist things that I have posted. Besides MJ liked white women back in the day, which was true and widely known. Surprised someone as non racist as you didn't write a column on that, back when you were employable. You know, prior to the whole slutshaming debacle, and your "retirement".
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After reading 82's comments, I think Novak should be erased from the MU basketball history books.
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.. Not every person or community is inherently racist. Posting a sign like this conveys to me that the library is saying the police, and townfolk are racist..
This was the summary of the objections. While I believe this is a massive exaggeration, conflating "recognizing systemic racism" with "everyone here is racist" .. it's not entirely inaccurate. People are unsurprisingly sensitive to being called racist. I am too.
And just to add some context .. Over the past ~10 years, WFB has gone from a 51/49 village, to a 71/29 liberal enclave.
It's .. unfortunate that four (my count) objectors were able to give the area a huge black eye.
The whole debacle hangs on that schmuck Village President for sure, though. 8-)
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You're right, probably nothing wrong with the intent of the message.
My guess is Novak read it differently which is his right. My guess is that his behavior towards others that he interacts with is just fine. That said, many (not saying you TAMU) will overreact to this. 82 has already compared him to the KKK.
IBTL.
Maybe I'm interpreting the post differently but where'd 82 compare him to the KKK? It would seem to me that he posted those stories as proof that there is actual racism and white power organizations that have infiltrated the system. examples systemic racism.
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back when you were employable. You know, prior to the whole slutshaming debacle, and your "retirement".
Gotta call this out. This is the kind of creepy internet-stalking-get-involved-in-business-you-know-nothing-about that got Keefe called out (https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62080.0)
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This was the summary of the objections. While I believe this is a massive exaggeration, conflating "recognizing systemic racism" with "everyone here is racist" .. it's not entirely inaccurate. People are unsurprisingly sensitive to being called racist. I am too.
Simply denying systemic racism exists doesn't mean it just goes away.
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Simply denying systemic racism exists doesn't mean it just goes away.
Oh. It'd be nice, though!
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Gotta call this out. This is the kind of creepy internet-stalking-get-involved-in-business-you-know-nothing-about that got Keefe called out (https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62080.0)
It's public record. No stalking involved.
rocky's edit: what you posted is the very definition of doxxing a random internet person. If you want to point out a post where he openly shared all this info, have at it.
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There’s nothing wrong with an organization trying to raise awareness for their cause. It seems the issue is there was no review process for placing an advertisement in that particular location. Many people were upset seeing the ad at the library, hence the sign was removed. A more transparent review process for things like this should prevent this from happening going forward.
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It's public record. No stalking involved.
https://www.milforddailynews.com/article/20080731/NEWS/307319988 (https://www.milforddailynews.com/article/20080731/NEWS/307319988)
Write stupid, misogynist chit for a series of newspapers, get called out for being a mysognist slut shamer. He's acknowledged that it was his article.
No statute of limitation on mistakes anymore, right?
If I were a racist like you, I'd attack non-racists with lies in passive-aggressive posts, too.
You don't know what you're talking about with the Erin Andrews column; you have lied about it repeatedly.
And your obsession with me is just plain strange. Of course, I tried to work things out with you in private last year, but you gave me the back of your hand. Shows just how small and pathetic you are, which is a pretty common trait in racists and liars like you.
Now go defend the guy who tried to get wades fired again. That was a real good look for you, too.
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This was the summary of the objections. While I believe this is a massive exaggeration, conflating "recognizing systemic racism" with "everyone here is racist" .. it's not entirely inaccurate. People are unsurprisingly sensitive to being called racist. I am too.
And just to add some context .. Over the past ~10 years, WFB has gone from a 51/49 village, to a 71/29 liberal enclave.
It's .. unfortunate that four (my count) objectors were able to give the area a huge black eye.
The whole debacle hangs on that schmuck Village President for sure, though. 8-)
I’ve started drafting impeachment paperwork.
I agree with most. Not sure Novak’s objection here unless it was just looking for a reason to complain. I live in WFB and certainly don’t view it as immune to systemic racism. There’s so much stuff that people do unconsciously everywhere that we don’t always recognize it.
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This thread is making me thirsty
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If I were a racist like you, I'd attack non-racists with lies in passive-aggressive posts, too.
You don't know what you're talking about with the Erin Andrews column; you have lied about it repeatedly.
And your obsession with me is just plain strange. Of course, I tried to work things out with you in private last year, but you gave me the back of your hand. Shows just how small and pathetic you are, which is a pretty common trait in racists and liars like you.
Now go defend the guy who tried to get wades fired again. That was a real good look for you, too.
Lots of insults, but not a lot of facts. So typical of internet bullies like you. Similar to misogyny.
Still waiting for proof that I'm racist. I bet we'll get Chico's "other shoe to drop" info first.
"What did I do to you?" Beta-male.
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A library said it wanted to do its part in fighting systemic racism, the degree and boundaries of which many of us are unable to fully appreciate. Stupid comment by Steve but what an insanely stupid article (and thread).
Also, I don't know Ziggy or read the boards enough to know what the hell it's all about, but dude needs to RE-LAX.
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After reading 82's comments, I think Novak should be erased from the MU basketball history books.
Bring down his statue. Like it never happened, aina?
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A sign addressing systemic racism was recently removed from the Whitefish Bay Public Library grounds following vocal criticism from some in the community — including former Milwaukee Bucks player Steve Novak.
The sign, which was placed in a rock garden display outside the library by Bay Bridge Wisconsin — a group that focuses on "raising awareness of racial and cultural bias in our community" — described its vision for the North Shore suburb.
"Whitefish Bay will be a welcoming community that recognizes systemic racism, and actively works to address and dismantle it," the sign read. "How will you be a bridge in helping to repair and build a more equitable community?"
"There is an offensive sign posted in front of the public library that incorrectly generalizes our community. It says that Whitefish Bay recognizes systemic racism," Novak, who works as an analyst for the Bucks on Bally Sports Wisconsin (formerly Fox Sports Wisconsin), wrote in a June 8 email to Nyama Reed, the library's director. "What group has taken the liberty of speaking for our community in such a hateful, damaging and inaccurate way?"
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2021/07/26/whitefish-bay-library-removes-sign-addressing-systemic-racism/8016856002/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2021/07/26/whitefish-bay-library-removes-sign-addressing-systemic-racism/8016856002/)
I don't know Steve personally, but I'm guessing he's not racist at all and simply finds it offensive for the same reason the "hate has no home" and "in this home we believe" signs are offensive to some.
IBTL.
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Lots of insults, but not a lot of facts. So typical of internet bullies like you. Similar to misogyny.
Still waiting for proof that I'm racist. I bet we'll get Chico's "other shoe to drop" info first.
"What did I do to you?" Beta-male.
all of yall take this board too seriously.
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Lots of insults, but not a lot of facts. So typical of internet bullies like you. Similar to misogyny.
Still waiting for proof that I'm racist. I bet we'll get Chico's "other shoe to drop" info first.
"What did I do to you?" Beta-male.
Yeah ... I'm the bully, you obsessive stalker.
I mean, just look at this thread. I made a comment about the OP and I provided a link to an extremely interesting, eye-opening article about racism in society. And you couldn't resist making a passive-aggressive attack that was filled with lies.
Which is par for the course from you.
I have been all but ignoring you on Scoop for a long time now; I wanted to move on, and I didn't want to subject our fellow Warriors and Golden Eagles to all this silliness. But your bizarre, pathetic obsession with me won't let you do the same.
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I’ve started drafting impeachment paperwork.
I agree with most. Not sure Novak’s objection here unless it was just looking for a reason to complain. I live in WFB and certainly don’t view it as immune to systemic racism. There’s so much stuff that people do unconsciously everywhere that we don’t always recognize it.
Little known fact: you can walk into Moxie and scream MUSCOOP at the top of your lungs and drink for free. They send Topper the bill. I do it twice a week. Try it tonight.
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Yeah ... I'm the bully, you obsessive stalker.
I mean, just look at this thread. I made a comment about the OP and I provided a link to an extremely interesting, eye-opening article about racism in society. And you couldn't resist making a passive-aggressive attack that was filled with lies.
Which is par for the course from you.
I have been all but ignoring you on Scoop for a long time now; I wanted to move on, and I didn't want to subject our fellow Warriors and Golden Eagles to all this silliness. But your bizarre, pathetic obsession with me won't let you do the same.
What lies? Are you that bitter that Erin Andrews is a millionaire, household name, while you live off of your old lady and day trade? That you were blacklisted in your chosen profession? It was quite a run that you had until you went all sexist and ruined your career. (Taken from your publicly posted blog that was at the end of the linked article that is a publicly posted column.)
And waiting for you to back up you accusations of racism. If you can't, then you should be banned (again). Personal attacks.
I'm not so desperate for attention and internet friends that I share personal details like you do. This is nothing but amusement for me. You take the bait like a starving largemouth bass. Every. Time.
It's not stalking to provide a public record counterpoint to all of the crap that you post on here (and get locked) to show your true character or lack there of.
Have a good day, pal. You'll get the last word, as usual.
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Lots of insults, but not a lot of facts. So typical of internet bullies like you. Similar to misogyny.
Still waiting for proof that I'm racist. I bet we'll get Chico's "other shoe to drop" info first.
"What did I do to you?" Beta-male.
Toxic
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Its offensive to some, especially to those that dont believe in systemic RACISM in all persons,communities. Difference between have inherent biases or subconscious stereotyping. Big leap to going from that to racism.
Systemic racism does not mean every person and every community is racist. It means it is widespread.
Biases and stereotyping also have little to do with systemic racism.
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Systemic racism does not mean every person and every community is racist. It means it is widespread.
Speaking of widespread, how ya been, Jockey?
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3-2-1 until the Arby's stimulus checks arrive
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What lies? Are you that bitter that Erin Andrews is a millionaire, household name, while you live off of your old lady and day trade? That you were blacklisted in your chosen profession? It was quite a run that you had until you went all sexist and ruined your career. (Taken from your publicly posted blog that was at the end of the linked article that is a publicly posted column.)
And waiting for you to back up you accusations of racism. If you can't, then you should be banned (again). Personal attacks.
I'm not so desperate for attention and internet friends that I share personal details like you do. This is nothing but amusement for me. You take the bait like a starving largemouth bass. Every. Time.
It's not stalking to provide a public record counterpoint to all of the crap that you post on here (and get locked) to show your true character or lack there of.
Have a good day, pal. You'll get the last word, as usual.
Pretty much everything in that opening paragraph is a lie, of course. But you're a liar, so you already knew that.
Your defense for your racist statement about Jordan -- that other people were saying it so that made it OK -- is comical. And racist.
Thanks for admitting that you're an obsessed stalker, though.
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Speaking of widespread, how ya been, Jockey?
Don’t even know what that means.
But I am doing fantastic. Life is good. Another vacation next week. What could be better?
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Biases and stereotyping also have little to do with systemic racism.
Inherent bias and subconscious stereotyping is part of systemic racism.
You and TAMU need to figure out the definition of systemic racism.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Zki6LEk.gif)
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Still waiting for proof that I'm racist.
For some, the "proof" is you saying you're not racist. It's actually surprising that none of the moral superiors on here has claimed this as the "proof".
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(https://media1.tenor.com/images/534abe6ebc8af5b78a6e7332f0211d54/tenor.gif)
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(https://i.giphy.com/media/3oriNTfNYdDxXOYrsI/giphy.webp)
Novak is going to have a lot of fun walking this back and promising to learn more about what systemic racism is.
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(https://i.giphy.com/media/3oriNTfNYdDxXOYrsI/giphy.webp)
Novak is going to have a lot of fun walking this back and promising to learn more about what systemic racism is.
Given Novak's decade plus career in the NBA where he was very well liked and respected and generally very favorable reputation everywhere he's been professionally, I think the "Novak is a closet racist" or even "Novak doesn't think systemic racism exists" actualities are probably untrue. This was more likely a terrible look on a dumb NIMBY sort of situation.
My friend's wife teaches in a school district that had a bruhaha over a parent complaining about racial biases in standardized testing. The general consensus was that it was something that had merit to be examined, but the parent was obnoxious and contentious about it in a way that had many people who agreed with the overall sentiment objecting the situation as it was presented.
This sign is seemingly more mundane, but its not always black and white (no pun intended)
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Bucks should bring back Sterling Brown to give him a lesson that he might have missed while covering the team that included Sterling Brown.
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It's public record. No stalking involved.
rocky's edit: what you posted is the very definition of doxxing a random internet person. If you want to point out a post where he openly shared all this info, have at it.
10 second scoop search:
In a former life, I was a sportswriter.
Please restore my original post.
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You're right, probably nothing wrong with the intent of the message.
My guess is Novak read it differently which is his right. My guess is that his behavior towards others that he interacts with is just fine. That said, many (not saying you TAMU) will overreact to this. 82 has already compared him to the KKK.
IBTL.
Brother Chili:
I 100% agree with you. There is so much connotative meaning in many openness statements that 10 people from 10 perspectives can see 10 different things in what's being said.
Mr. Novak took things from his perspective, for which he has a right.
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Brother Chili:
I 100% agree with you. There is so much connotative meaning in many openness statements that 10 people from 10 perspectives can see 10 different things in what's being said.
Mr. Novak took things from his perspective, for which he has a right.
DG, be prepared to be labeled a racist for your opinion by the uber woke crowd.
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DG, be prepared to be labeled a racist for your opinion by the uber woke crowd.
Their gender neutral bat signal must be malfunctioning. The scolds have been quiet the last few days.
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Their gender neutral bat signal must be malfunctioning. The scolds have been quiet the last few days.
Nah, the usual suspects are very offended and showing it every other post or so
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DG, be prepared to be labeled a racist for your opinion by the uber woke crowd.
(https://d24bnpykhxwj9p.cloudfront.net/s3file/s3fs-public/users1/2017-10/Thu/attacked.gif)
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I wonder what 82 would say about how she is dressed?
Lighten up 82.....It's a joke. ;D
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I wonder what 82 would say about how she is dressed?
Lighten up 82.....It's a joke. ;D
The meat crowd sure does love their unprovoked personal attacks
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The meat crowd sure does love their unprovoked personal attacks
Lighten up Francis. ;D
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The meat crowd sure does love their unprovoked personal attacks
The beta-males do it too. What's your point?
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I just love the meat eaters being proactively mad online. "Bro, you're about the labeled a racist!"
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I just love the meat eaters being proactively mad online. "Bro, you're about the labeled a racist!"
Forever the victims...of imaginary things
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The beta-males do it too. What's your point?
Unprovoked?
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Isn't everyone a racist, meaning race consciousness?
I know black guys who I would call anti-white, or racist.
I know white guys who I would describe as anti-black, or racist.
The problem, as I see it, is with the concept of systemic.
If we don't recognise systemic racism against blacks I am left speechless.
In housing, education, health care, job opportunities, legal representation there is a systemic problem for blacks.
It is as simple as that.
I'm 77 and getting ready to check out. It will be fixed by the next generation, or the generation after that, or the one after that. Every generation has made progress and the best is yet to come.
Milwaukee and Wisconsin in the 60's was a far cry from what it is now. I see that it will continue to improve with or without Mr. Novak and his like-minded friends..
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Isn't everyone a racist, meaning race consciousness?
I know black guys who I would call anti-white, or racist.
I know white guys who I would describe as anti-black, or racist.
The problem, as I see it, is with the concept of systemic.
If we don't recognise systemic racism against blacks I am left speechless.
In housing, education, health care, job opportunities, legal representation there is a systemic problem for blacks.
It is as simple as that.
I'm 77 and getting ready to check out. It will be fixed by the next generation, or the generation after that, or the one after that. Every generation has made progress and the best is yet to come.
Milwaukee and Wisconsin in the 60's was a far cry from what it is now. I see that it will continue to improve with or without Mr. Novak and his like-minded friends..
Depends on how you define systemic racism.
If you go by NAACP President Derrick Johnson, its "systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantages African Americans."
What are the systems and structures in place in healthcare, legal, housing, etc to disadvantage minorities? Are there racist people in positions of power? Of course, but actual systems and structures have been outlawed. For example, redlining in the housing industry.
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You and TAMU need to figure out the definition of systemic racism.
Not really.
My point (well-made or not) was that biases and stereotypes are Not the same as racism. We all have these no matter how open minded we are.
TAMU's point, I believe, is that biases and stereotypes contribute to systemic racism.
I stand by my point and fully agree with TAMU.
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Given Novak's decade plus career in the NBA where he was very well liked and respected and generally very favorable reputation everywhere he's been professionally, I think the "Novak is a closet racist" or even "Novak doesn't think systemic racism exists" actualities are probably untrue. This was more likely a terrible look on a dumb NIMBY sort of situation.
I think you are pretty close here. I don't see these as racist comments. Just dumb and insensitive. Go figure - a rich white guy thinking blacks haven't had it that bad. He sees things through his green colored glasses.
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DG, be prepared to be labeled a racist for your opinion by the uber woke crowd.
Being passive / aggressive is so cute. ::)
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I think you are pretty close here. I don't see these as racist comments. Just dumb and insensitive. Go figure - a rich white guy thinking blacks haven't had it that bad. He sees things through his green colored glasses.
Where did he say that?
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Where did he say that?
he didn't but in woke culture, it's acceptable to make up someone's intent and approach and call what they don't agree with "racism." My wife was accused of racism for pressing charges against her Black assailant, along with other insults she endured for doing so.
Novak has a different perspective than the rest of us. He played in a league that is over 70% black for ten years. Maybe he doesn't look around and see racism (whatever that means these days) lurking everywhere due to his personal experience.
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All these beta-cuckservatives triggered by a sign on a library. Lol.
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he didn't but in woke culture, it's acceptable to make up someone's intent and approach and call what they don't agree with "racism." My wife was accused of racism for pressing charges against her Black assailant, along with other insults she endured for doing so.
Novak has a different perspective than the rest of us. He played in a league that is over 70% black for ten years. Maybe he doesn't look around and see racism (whatever that means these days) lurking everywhere due to his personal experience.
Being surrounded by Black people at work doesn't mean you understand their experience.
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he didn't but in woke culture, it's acceptable to make up someone's intent and approach and call what they don't agree with "racism." My wife was accused of racism for pressing charges against her Black assailant, along with other insults she endured for doing so.
Novak has a different perspective than the rest of us. He played in a league that is over 70% black for ten years. Maybe he doesn't look around and see racism (whatever that means these days) lurking everywhere due to his personal experience.
Systemic racism, specifically. There may be some institutional racism in certain areas of society due to preconceived biases, buts it does not fall under the heading of systemic racism. In the year 2021, there
exist no U.S. federal government or state government statutes or ordinances that
will accommodate systemic racism
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Systemic racism, specifically. There may be some institutional racism in certain areas of society due to preconceived biases, buts it does not fall under the heading of systemic racism. In the year 2021, there
exist no U.S. federal government or state government statutes or ordinances that
will accommodate systemic racism
You're misunderstanding the definition of systemic racism. Society as a whole is the 'system' here, not government.
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You're misunderstanding the definition of systemic racism. Society as a whole is the 'system' here, not government.
Actually, you are. You're thinking of institutional racism.
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Actually, you are. You're thinking of institutional racism.
Incorrect, but you do you.
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Where did he say that?
"There is an offensive sign posted in front of the public library that incorrectly generalizes our community. It says that Whitefish Bay recognizes systemic racism," Novak wrote to the library's director. "What group has taken the liberty of speaking for our community in such a hateful, damaging and inaccurate way?"
In other words, he is saying it didn't happen here. Maybe pretending it only happens down south. Many rich liberal communities were/are just as bad as cities down south. I used to hang out with a guy who was raised in the south and then moved to Chicago before coming to Wisconsin. I asked him one time where it was easier for a black man to live. Without hesitation, he said down south. The racism he dealt with was more intense and open, but at least you always knew where things stood. Up here, people talked the talk, but didn't always walk the walk. He never knew what to expect .
In other words, Steve is saying it doesn't happen here. My suggestion would be for him to go through housing records of the last 50 - 75 years and he might get a much clearer picture.
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Incorrect, but you do you.
Nice comeback.
Don't really feel like posting the correct definition of systemic racism, you're free to look it up. People are lazily calling institutional racism systemic racism.
Actually, here are a few:
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/WGEAPD/Session27/submissions-statements/mdshahid-systemicracism.pdf (https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/WGEAPD/Session27/submissions-statements/mdshahid-systemicracism.pdf)
Here's another:
"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power.
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Depends on how you define systemic racism.
If you go by NAACP President Derrick Johnson, its "systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantages African Americans."
What are the systems and structures in place in healthcare, legal, housing, etc to disadvantage minorities? Are there racist people in positions of power? Of course, but actual systems and structures have been outlawed. For example, redlining in the housing industry.
Because redlining has been outlawed means there is no redlining, got it.
Because there are black faces in congress means that blacks have political power, got it.
Because black wages are below white wages and therefore contribute less to 401k plans means there is no systemic racism, got it.
Because inner city health care and hospitals are inferior to suburban medical care proves there is no systemic racism, got it.
Thank you, I have been very misinformed.
Mr. Novak is right, everything is wonderful.
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"There is an offensive sign posted in front of the public library that incorrectly generalizes our community. It says that Whitefish Bay recognizes systemic racism," Novak wrote to the library's director. "What group has taken the liberty of speaking for our community in such a hateful, damaging and inaccurate way?"
In other words, he is saying it didn't happen here. Maybe pretending it only happens down south. Many rich liberal communities were/are just as bad as cities down south. I used to hang out with a guy who was raised in the south and then moved to Chicago before coming to Wisconsin. I asked him one time where it was easier for a black man to live. Without hesitation, he said down south. The racism he dealt with was more intense and open, but at least you always knew where things stood. Up here, people talked the talk, but didn't always walk the walk. He never knew what to expect .
In other words, Steve is saying it doesn't happen here. My suggestion would be for him to go through housing records of the last 50 - 75 years and he might get a much clearer picture.
Redlining stopped in 1968. There are Federal Laws to protect individuals for this.
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Redlining stopped in 1968. There are Federal Laws to protect individuals for this.
Are you really that niaive?
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Redlining stopped in 1968. There are Federal Laws to protect individuals for this.
I think you meant to say that redlining became illegal in 1968.
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Are you really that niaive?
He has just demonstrated it several times in the last half hour, so I'm going with yes.
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Where did he say that?
He wants the sign down, that's how he said it.
It's really none of his business.
I see the sign as causing no problem. Apparently it's a big problem for Mr. N.
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Here's another amazing article about white high school kids in Traverse City, Mich. "playfully" buying and selling their Black classmates in "mock slave trades" on social media:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/mock-slave-trade-critical-race-theory/2021/07/23/b4372c36-e9a8-11eb-ba5d-55d3b5ffcaf1_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F343d6e2%2F60fedcf59d2fda945a1931e5%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F70%2F60fedcf59d2fda945a1931e5
Many in the town were outragedv when they first heard about it ... until they thought the pushback made them all look like racists. Then the white victimhood came out in full throat -- "It's unfair to do this to us!" -- with many of them blaming (of course) Critical Race Theory ... even though no school in Traverse City teaches that, no school is planning to teach it, and these aggrieved white people almost surely have no idea what CRT is.
Systemic racism? Institutional racism? Societal racism? Just plain ol' racism? Whatevs ... it's effed up. And it's part of mainstream America.
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He wants the sign down, that's how he said it.
It's really none of his business.
I see the sign as causing no problem. Apparently it's a big problem for Mr. N.
Right, he could have just not said anything. Instead, he inserted himself into the conversation, and deserves the criticism he is getting.
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Systemic racism, specifically. There may be some institutional racism in certain areas of society due to preconceived biases, buts it does not fall under the heading of systemic racism. In the year 2021, there
exist no U.S. federal government or state government statutes or ordinances that
will accommodate systemic racism
If we're going off your definition, rather than acknowledging that there are lingering effects of the formerly legal systemic racism which also count as systemic racism. Then I would say closing polling locations in African American and minority communities constitutes systemic racism. I would say that school funding being tied to better test scores rather than need is systemic racism at least as it pertains to city schools. I would say that the consistent upheaval of African American communities to build highways to white neighborhoods is systemic racism. I would say that pretty much all of the public meal assistance programs have lead to major health issues in mostly minority communities and the willingness to let special interest groups run those rather than acknowledge we're essentially putting these kids at a medical and physical disadvantage early is systemic racism.
Edit: due to the way schools are being funded I would also say that home value being tied to public school prestige is also systemic racism. Don't fund schools->school does worse->home value drops -> generational wealth becomes harder to accumulate.
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Redlining stopped in 1968. There are Federal Laws to protect individuals for this.
Are you kidding me?
1968 was only a very small step in the right direction.
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If we're going off your definition, rather than acknowledging that there are lingering effects of the formerly legal systemic racism which also count as systemic racism. Then I would say closing polling locations in African American and minority communities constitutes systemic racism. I would say that school funding being tied to better test scores rather than need is systemic racism at least as it pertains to city schools. I would say that the consistent upheaval of African American communities to build highways to white neighborhoods is systemic racism. I would say that pretty much all of the public meal assistance programs have lead to major health issues in mostly minority communities and the willingness to let special interest groups run those rather than acknowledge we're essentially putting these kids at a medical and physical disadvantage early is systemic racism.
And on, and on, and on.
On the job promotions, cigarette advertising, inadequate public transportation, and even police funding and fire house closings. It's like wack-a-mole.
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Systemic racism, specifically. There may be some institutional racism in certain areas of society due to preconceived biases, buts it does not fall under the heading of systemic racism. In the year 2021, there
exist no U.S. federal government or state government statutes or ordinances that
will accommodate systemic racism
Most use systemic and institutional interchangeably or more accurately as institutional racism being one type of systemic racism.
No definition, including the one you posted later in this thread, requires there to be statues or ordinances that explicitly discriminate against people of color. Systemic racism refers to practices, not just laws and also includes practices that disproportionally benefit whites or disproportionally harm people of color. For example, a practice could be tied to socio-economic status, not race but because people of lower socio-economic status are disproportionally people of color, it could be an example of systemic racism.
As for redlining, it was outlawed in the 1960s but it's impact is still being felt today. That practice kept families of color from amassing family wealth and also impacted other aspects such as access to quality public education and adequate public services which has persisted into the modern day. This of course is not even taking into account that while it is now illegal, redlining still happens constantly, just not as explicitly.
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Nice comeback.
Don't really feel like posting the correct definition of systemic racism, you're free to look it up. People are lazily calling institutional racism systemic racism.
Actually, here are a few:
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/WGEAPD/Session27/submissions-statements/mdshahid-systemicracism.pdf (https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/WGEAPD/Session27/submissions-statements/mdshahid-systemicracism.pdf)
Here's another:
"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power.
So I'm lazy, so what.
As lawyers like to say, a difference without a distinction.
Today most people don't want to be labled as a racist so we argue about semantics.
I can feel comfortable not being a racist while turning a blind eye on institutional/systemic racism. Just another way to skin a cat.
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Most use systemic and institutional interchangeably or more accurately as institutional racism being one type of systemic racism.
No definition, including the one you posted later in this thread, requires there to be statues or ordinances that explicitly discriminate against people of color. Systemic racism refers to practices, not just laws and also includes practices that disproportionally benefit whites or disproportionally harm people of color. For example, a practice could be tied to socio-economic status, not race but because people of lower socio-economic status are disproportionally people of color, it could be an example of systemic racism.
As for redlining, it was outlawed in the 1960s but it's impact is still being felt today. That practice kept families of color from amassing family wealth and also impacted other aspects such as access to quality public education and adequate public services which has persisted into the modern day. This of course is not even taking into account that while it is now illegal, redlining still happens constantly, just not as explicitly.
I agree on the redlining destroying generations of potential wealth. I feel there needs to be reparations.
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Being surrounded by Black people at work doesn't mean you understand their experience.
it gives you a better understanding than people who have never met a Black person, or think they know what every Black person has gone through because they watched Boyz In The Hood or Straight Outta Compton and are the most boisterous claiming everything is racist. Just as I'm able to better understand the Asian immigrant perspective though being married to one.
Because redlining has been outlawed means there is no redlining, got it.
Because there are black faces in congress means that blacks have political power, got it.
Because black wages are below white wages and therefore contribute less to 401k plans means there is no systemic racism, got it.
Because inner city health care and hospitals are inferior to suburban medical care proves there is no systemic racism, got it.
Thank you, I have been very misinformed.
Mr. Novak is right, everything is wonderful.
Asians were subject to every one of those systemic racism laws too, even prohibited from becoming citizens (Filipinos were the only Asians granted citizenship in the '20s because they were a US territory but had their citizenship revoked when they became a commonwealth in 1935). How are they doing? Why do Nigerians have a higher average income than the overall US population?
Yes, our country has a shameful history of discrimination and blocking of opportunities for minority groups for a long time, but why have some groups been able to overcome it while others have languished?
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it gives you a better understanding than people who have never met a Black person, or think they know what every Black person has gone through because they watched Boyz In The Hood or Straight Outta Compton and are the most boisterous claiming everything is racist. Just as I'm able to better understand the Asian immigrant perspective though being married to one.
Asians were subject to every one of those systemic racism laws too, even prohibited from becoming citizens (Filipinos were the only Asians granted citizenship in the '20s because they were a US territory but had their citizenship revoked when they became a commonwealth in 1935). How are they doing? Why do Nigerians have a higher average income than the overall US population?
Yes, our country has a shameful history of discrimination and blocking of opportunities for minority groups for a long time, but why have some groups been able to overcome it while others have languished?
You're not serious, are you?
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Today most people don't want to be labled as a racist so we argue about semantics.
I don't always agree with Vogue, but agree here. I can't began to count the number of times I've seen discussions devolve into a version of "I don't know what it is, but it's not racism." Interestingly, I've sometime changed the discussion by saying "Ok, let's say it's not an example of racism. Can we agree that whatever it is, it's not good? And we should do something about it?" And usually I get a positive response. Many recognize the problems but are so triggered by the word racism that they will fight tooth and nail even if they agree that it is a problem.
I see a similar phenomenon in my line of work. Most respondents that I see admit to some level of wrongdoing. They admit to being jerks, to "taking things too far", to not treating the other person well, and sometimes they even admit to the specific action that they are accused of. But attach the words "stalking" or "sexual assault" or "dating violence" and they categorically deny it. I've literally had respondents tell me before "Well I punched my girlfriend, but it wasn't dating violence" and another who admitting to knowing the a woman was unconscious when he had sex with her, but categorically denied that a sexual assault took place. In both of these cases, the respodent admitted that what they did was wrong...but argued that it wasn't sexual violence. We like to argue about definitions rather than discuss the problems themselves.
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Why do Nigerians have a higher average income than the overall US population?
So what I'm taking from this is the USA pushed African Americans down so far that it's actually better to be an African immigrant family than to have been here for generations with your family attempting to "grow in the system".
I don't think that was the point you wanted to make.
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I think you meant to say that redlining became illegal in 1968.
Yes. Correct. If one feels they are a victim of discriminatory practices, there are ways to resolve them.
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Today most people don't want to be labled as a racist so we argue about semantics.
I would agree with you here. I would agree with those that said if the sign said Let's Fight Racism, or Racism sucks, etc it wouldnt be a problem. Racism is clearly still around, and fighting the inherent biases is vital. I personal just do not like the term systemic racism
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If we're going off your definition, rather than acknowledging that there are lingering effects of the formerly legal systemic racism which also count as systemic racism. Then I would say closing polling locations in African American and minority communities constitutes systemic racism. I would say that school funding being tied to better test scores rather than need is systemic racism at least as it pertains to city schools. I would say that the consistent upheaval of African American communities to build highways to white neighborhoods is systemic racism. I would say that pretty much all of the public meal assistance programs have lead to major health issues in mostly minority communities and the willingness to let special interest groups run those rather than acknowledge we're essentially putting these kids at a medical and physical disadvantage early is systemic racism.
Edit: due to the way schools are being funded I would also say that home value being tied to public school prestige is also systemic racism. Don't fund schools->school does worse->home value drops -> generational wealth becomes harder to accumulate.
Sounds like you are advocating for school choice.
Dollars go with the student, not the address.
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So what I'm taking from this is the USA pushed African Americans down so far that it's actually better to be an African immigrant family than to have been here for generations with your family attempting to "grow in the system".
I don't think that was the point you wanted to make.
I don't think it necessarily is a bad point, depending on how you look at it. Its not like an immigrant POC has any distinct advantage over an American born POC, they both are susceptible to the same societal discrimination. Its not a terrible exercise to see what may be different in their approaches and experiences.
I had a college roommate who was a first generation American born to Nigerian parents. He grew up in a predominantly black area of Detroit. He had some horrible things happen early in his life including his Mom having a visa issue and being unable to return to the US after a trip home to Lagos and spent most of his childhood in relative poverty. Yet his experience and familial approach/mindset was very different than many he grew up with and went to HS with. Of course its not all black and white, but it is an interesting thing to ponder.
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Yes. Correct. If one feels they are a victim of discriminatory practices, there are ways to resolve them.
The problem is, proving discrimination is hard and the people most likely to fall victim are often the ones who can least afford pursuing a legal remedy.
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Redlining is absolutely still around today. Before, it was literally drawing red lines on a map for the bad areas. Now, it's done by algorithms and actuarial analysis.
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Yes, our country has a shameful history of discrimination and blocking of opportunities for minority groups for a long time, but why have some groups been able to overcome it while others have languished?
Oh, do tell.
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Redlining is absolutely still around today. Before, it was literally drawing red lines on a map for the bad areas. Now, it's done by algorithms and actuarial analysis.
Exactly. It's done with a wink and a nod instead of a pen and a map.
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Yet his experience and familial approach/mindset was very different than many he grew up with and went to HS with. Of course its not all black and white, but it is an interesting thing to ponder.
Why do you think that is, Wags?
What might be different between the experiences of those who are the descendants slaves and have endured generations of deprivation and discrimination, and an immigrant who arrived in the U.S. decades after the Civil Rights Movement?
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The problem is, proving discrimination is hard and the people most likely to fall victim are often the ones who can least afford pursuing a legal remedy.
You're better than that. Many attorneys work on a contingency basis.
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You're better than that. Many attorneys work on a contingency basis.
When they think they can win. Which is why nearly a third of civil rights suits are filed pro se. If a third are pro se, imagine how many more people just don't file because they can't find/afford a lawyer and have no clue to go about filing a federal lawsuit on their own.
https://lawreview.uchicago.edu/publication/empirical-patterns-pro-se-litigation-federal-district-courts
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Redlining is absolutely still around today. Before, it was literally drawing red lines on a map for the bad areas. Now, it's done by algorithms and actuarial analysis.
Actually prior to the housing crash, it was the opposite, subprime and no doc loans. It's not about any racism, its about the almighty $$$
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Actually prior to the housing crash, it was the opposite, subprime and no doc loans. It's not about any racism, its about the almighty $$$
Which disproportionally negatively impacts people of color, especially Black Americans. Again, a policy doesn't have to explicitly state that its purpose is to discriminate based on race in order to be an example of systemic racism.
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Yes. Correct. If one feels they are a victim of discriminatory practices, there are ways to resolve them.
As I hope you realize, the bar for legal discrimination and discrimination are two different things. Many bad actors operate in the space in between the two.
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Which disproportionally negatively impacts people of color, especially Black Americans. Again, a policy doesn't have to explicitly state that its purpose is to discriminate based on race in order to be an example of systemic racism.
Or the policy was based strictly on predatory lending to those with bad credit, regardless of race. Payday loans are another example of this.
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Sounds like you are advocating for school choice.
Dollars go with the student, not the address.
I'm actually not, I think school choice has been an epic disaster in milwaukee. And when you have kids getting up at 4:30am to take a MTA bus to bayview how are they supposed to function at the level of a kid who walks to their local high school after getting up 2 or 3 hours later?
I am advocating that they take a need based approach to school funding rather than rewarding those who graduate more kids or get better results, it does nobody any good when admins are making HS teachers pass kids who should be failing just so the school can get more funding.
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As I hope you realize, the bar for legal discrimination and discrimination are two different things. Many bad actors operate in the space in between the two.
I agree with this. Some intentionally, and some without awareness.
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Lets deal with the redlining and housing issues in a factual manner for a moment.
The Fair Housing Act of 1968 banned racially restrictive covenants in housing contracts and banned redlining. The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 required banks and credit unions that take federally insured deposits to demonstrate they were serving the needs of their entire community. The Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 1975 demands that lenders keep clear records on how they lend and make mortgage documents user friendly.
Are there unscrupulous people who act in racist manners? Of course. But on an institutional basis, the government has passed and -- trust me -- enforces these acts pretty aggressively. In fact, one of my clients recently received a "Needs to Improve" CRA rating, which makes it nearly impossible to do major corporate transactions until they clean their problem up.
What more should the government do?
On the question of lending to Protected Classes of people, several federal agencies have been created to address housing affordability disparities in our country. The Government National Mortgage Association (GNMA) is one and is designed to be a conduit for low and moderate income borrowers who seek to own homes and improve themselves and their communities.
The last recession in 2008 to 2011 started with a housing finance crisis largely brought about by sub-prime lending. Prior to 2008, both the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) and the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae), as well as many private sector lenders, reduced down payment and underwriting standards so that more people could afford homes. Sub-prime was largely an instrument that brought homeownership to low income people. When things went sideways, our tax dollars cleaned Freddie and Fannie up.
What many see as racism, others see as risk-based pricing. Yes, the interest rates paid by low- and moderate income folks often is higher than what's paid by the well-off. That's called default risk and based on FICO scores or other credit scores, economic history of the borrower and the probability of loss given default. There's tons of statistical data that lenders use to calculate these numbers, And, yes, folks, those numbers do not lie. Not in the least.
Risk-based pricing is why my recent college graduate son didn't get the cheap new car loan rate at the local credit union until I co-signed for his car loan. The credit union saw his credit as garbage but saw me as golden.
I'm certainly not saying there has not been past discrimination. I'm sure, given the timing of many of our parents' first housing purchases, there's a good chance certain illegal covenants were in their house purchase contracts. Heck, racial covenants were among the issues that doomed Richard Nixon's 1962 California Gubernatorial Campaign. But if a minority moved into our community -- and paid for the home with a loan or with cash -- I'm sure he or she would be welcome. I hope that's true across our country.
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Or the policy was based strictly on predatory lending to those with bad credit, regardless of race. Payday loans are another example of this.
You're defining what should and should not be defined as systemic racism by what you see as the intent.
TAMU is defining it by the objective outcome.
Predatory lending, in theory, is race neutral. But in practice, it disproportionately impacts POC.
The same is true of something like the federal crackdown (no pun intended) on crack cocaine. In theory, the differing punishments for rock vs powder are race neutral. But in the real world, where Blacks tended to use crack more and whites tended to use powder, it led to unequal justice and disparate sentencing based largely on race.
You're making the case that these things can't possibly be examples of systemic racism because they don't explicitly target Blacks. But in the real world, they lead to disproportionate outcomes based on race.
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I don't think it necessarily is a bad point, depending on how you look at it. Its not like an immigrant POC has any distinct advantage over an American born POC, they both are susceptible to the same societal discrimination. Its not a terrible exercise to see what may be different in their approaches and experiences.
I had a college roommate who was a first generation American born to Nigerian parents. He grew up in a predominantly black area of Detroit. He had some horrible things happen early in his life including his Mom having a visa issue and being unable to return to the US after a trip home to Lagos and spent most of his childhood in relative poverty. Yet his experience and familial approach/mindset was very different than many he grew up with and went to HS with. Of course its not all black and white, but it is an interesting thing to ponder.
From that angle I 100% agree, there was a race documentary done on my old High School and there was a scene where a kid directly from Africa got into an argument with an African American student, during a class discussion about race, over values, societal respect, and attitude. I won't get into the details between the two but it was very telling about the differences.
That being said, I again would like to reiterate my point that for every other culture, when you came to the states it was the lowest economic point you would be. However, since this is not the case for African americans, does that not show us there are societal issues keeping them from accumulating generational wealth? Some of it is internal (birth control, gangs, embracing education) some of it is society's fault (racial profiling, harsher sentencing, redlining, education funding, access to nutritional food, access to quality healthcare, access to voting, access to legal advice re landlords or water or unfair housing practices or public works issues)
Seems like there's plenty of room for any person regardless of political affiliation to (in the least) say "yes, there is some systematic racism in this country, let's at least fix our half and they can fix theirs"
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Redlining stopped in 1968. There are Federal Laws to protect individuals for this.
I live in the real world.
Apparently there is no more murder, robbery, rape, blackmail, etc. ::) We have laws against them.
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Lets deal with the redlining and housing issues in a factual manner for a moment.
The Fair Housing Act of 1968 banned racially restrictive covenants in housing contracts and banned redlining. The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 required banks and credit unions that take federally insured deposits to demonstrate they were serving the needs of their entire community. The Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 1975 demands that lenders keep clear records on how they lend and make mortgage documents user friendly.
Are there unscrupulous people who act in racist manners? Of course. But on an institutional basis, the government has passed and -- trust me -- enforces these acts pretty aggressively. In fact, one of my clients recently received a "Needs to Improve" CRA rating, which makes it nearly impossible to do major corporate transactions until they clean their problem up.
What more should the government do?
On the question of lending to Protected Classes of people, several federal agencies have been created to address housing affordability disparities in our country. The Government National Mortgage Association (GNMA) is one and is designed to be a conduit for low and moderate income borrowers who seek to own homes and improve themselves and their communities.
The last recession in 2008 to 2011 started with a housing finance crisis largely brought about by sub-prime lending. Prior to 2008, both the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) and the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae), as well as many private sector lenders, reduced down payment and underwriting standards so that more people could afford homes. Sub-prime was largely an instrument that brought homeownership to low income people. When things went sideways, our tax dollars cleaned Freddie and Fannie up.
What many see as racism, others see as risk-based pricing. Yes, the interest rates paid by low- and moderate income folks often is higher than what's paid by the well-off. That's called default risk and based on FICO scores or other credit scores, economic history of the borrower and the probability of loss given default. There's tons of statistical data that lenders use to calculate these numbers, And, yes, folks, those numbers do not lie. Not in the least.
Risk-based pricing is why my recent college graduate son didn't get the cheap new car loan rate at the local credit union until I co-signed for his car loan. The credit union saw his credit as garbage but saw me as golden.
I'm certainly not saying there has not been past discrimination. I'm sure, given the timing of many of our parents' first housing purchases, there's a good chance certain illegal covenants were in their house purchase contracts. Heck, racial covenants were among the issues that doomed Richard Nixon's 1962 California Gubernatorial Campaign. But if a minority moved into our community -- and paid for the home with a loan or with cash -- I'm sure he or she would be welcome. I hope that's true across our country.
Not relevant to lending but relevant to what type of loan you'd get approved for to purchase your next home. I think it's safe to say that this isn't a one off and that not everyone is smart enough to do a comparison.
https://fox59.com/news/indianapolis-homeowner-files-discrimination-complaint-after-removal-of-black-identifiers-leads-to-100000-appraisal-increase/
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Not relevant to lending but relevant to what type of loan you'd get approved for to purchase your next home. I think it's safe to say that this isn't a one off and that not everyone is smart enough to do a comparison.
https://fox59.com/news/indianapolis-homeowner-files-discrimination-complaint-after-removal-of-black-identifiers-leads-to-100000-appraisal-increase/
Brother Galway:
I hope to hell the complainant, if there is fact governing his allegation, not only wins but federal regulators ban the appraiser from completing work for federally insured financial institutions or for federally backed mortgages purchased by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
Regulators have that kind of power.
Every real estate lender has a group of "approved" appraisers. Management reviews credentials and the Board of Directors approves appraisers who can work for financial institutions. If it's a mortgage broker, the broker's right to sell to major public and private sector mortgage conduits can be revoked if it is found the appraisals are discriminatory or otherwise not in compliance with federal and state law and regulation.
The savings and loan crisis of 1982-1989 shed new light on appraisers, as did the sub-prime crisis of 2008. If these guys and gals are going to play "fun with numbers" and do "make as instructed" appraisals, they'll end up in prison.
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That being said, I again would like to reiterate my point that for every other culture, when you came to the states it was the lowest economic point you would be. However, since this is not the case for African americans, does that not show us there are societal issues keeping them from accumulating generational wealth? Some of it is internal (birth control, gangs, embracing education) some of it is society's fault (racial profiling, harsher sentencing, redlining, education funding, access to nutritional food, access to quality healthcare, access to voting, access to legal advice re landlords or water or unfair housing practices or public works issues)
The question you might want to ask here is why are the things you label as "internal" more of a problem (or seemingly so) in the Black community than other communities?
Why are young Black men more likely to join a gang and be incarcerated, or young Black women more likely to become pregnant earlier in life and outside a stable relationship? Why is there a perception that Black families care less about education?
Are Blacks by nature more violent and promiscuous, and less industrious and achievement oriented?
Or is there a centuries-long legacy of discrimination and deprivation that has long-lasting cultural impacts that don't simply go away because someone changed a law in 1968?
When someone like Billy says "But what about the Asians" or "What about the Irish," what they're ignoring is that widespread discrimination against those groups in this country can be measured in years,or at worst decades, while for Blacks it's measured in centuries. And includes actual enslavement, not just denial of some employment opportunities.
And when Wags tells us about his college friend from Nigeria, what he's missing is that just because that friend has the same skin color as many Blacks in America, it doesn't mean he faced the same challenges.
None of this is to say that there aren't plenty of self-inflicted wounds in the Black community. There are many. But I think some people are all-too-willing to overlook the multigenerational impacts and legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country.
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Good, serious discussion about an incredibly important topic, folks. Thanks.
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Not really.
My point (well-made or not) was that biases and stereotypes are Not the same as racism. We all have these no matter how open minded we are.
TAMU's point, I believe, is that biases and stereotypes contribute to systemic racism.
I stand by my point and fully agree with TAMU.
So we all have biases and stereotypes which are not the same as racism but they contribute to systemic racism. I can only conclude that all races contribute to systemic racism.
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So we all have biases and stereotypes which are not the same as racism but they contribute to systemic racism. I can only conclude that all races contribute to systemic racism.
Most people do, yea, hence *systemic*. Of course, not all races suffer the consequences.
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So we all have biases and stereotypes which are not the same as racism but they contribute to systemic racism. I can only conclude that all races contribute to systemic racism.
Yes, everyone is racist to some degree. It's human nature. Better to acknowledge the problem and examine its roots rather than pretend it doesn't exist.
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The question you might want to ask here is why are the things you label as "internal" more of a problem (or seemingly so) in the Black community than other communities?
Why are young Black men more likely to join a gang and be incarcerated, or young Black women more likely to become pregnant earlier in life and outside a stable relationship? Why is there a perception that Black families care less about education?
Are Blacks by nature more violent and promiscuous, and less industrious and achievement oriented?
Or is there a centuries-long legacy of discrimination and deprivation that has long-lasting cultural impacts that don't simply go away because someone changed a law in 1968?
When someone like Billy says "But what about the Asians" or "What about the Irish," what they're ignoring is that widespread discrimination against those groups in this country can be measured in years,or at worst decades, while for Blacks it's measured in centuries. And includes actual enslavement, not just denial of some employment opportunities.
And when Wags tells us about his college friend from Nigeria, what he's missing is that just because that friend has the same skin color as many Blacks in America, it doesn't mean he faced the same challenges.
None of this is to say that there aren't plenty of self-inflicted wounds in the Black community. There are many. But I think some people are all-too-willing to overlook the multigenerational impacts and legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country.
I agree, it is extremely important to ask "why" I only named those things as issues that I personally find myself more on the "personal responsibility" side of things. Granted when you have influential African American pastors saying 'birth control is the white mans way of stopping us from reproducing' then it also becomes a cultural issue rather than a personal responsibility issue. I don't think African Americans are more promiscuous, I think less stigma around sex + lack of parental involvement + a issue with accepting birth control + no stigma of teen pregnancy = teen pregnancy. I think with gangs it's a different story, having boxed in the Chicago and Milwaukee community centers I don't buy the "the bot after school opportunities" myth. It's societal (sometimes even familial) pressure from where they live to feel safe on their block and make easy money. Regarding education, I've made known my fiancé was a math teacher at one of the struggling MPS schools, some parents try to make their kids care but if they themselves are HS dropouts it's hard to instill educational values in a child, on the other hand I'd also hear of parents who just "gave up" and don't care, which probably relates to the maturity of the parent and how equipped they are to deal with the issues. IMO, that's an issue of if all you see around you are high school drop outs, or at best people who were passed to let the school get more $$ then why would they think there's something more out there?
you're dead on about the comparisons made with the East Asians or Irish, they were such minor setbacks that still didn't put them at the absolute bottom of racial hierarchy.
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Yes, everyone is racist to some degree. It's human nature. Better to acknowledge the problem and examine its roots rather than pretend it doesn't exist.
I believe you just answered your own question and no one is pretending it does not exist.
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Just dropping this off
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/more-development-would-ruin-our-neighborhoods-character-and-that-character-is-systemic-racism (https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/more-development-would-ruin-our-neighborhoods-character-and-that-character-is-systemic-racism)
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Just dropping this off
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/more-development-would-ruin-our-neighborhoods-character-and-that-character-is-systemic-racism (https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/more-development-would-ruin-our-neighborhoods-character-and-that-character-is-systemic-racism)
Brilliant.
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The question you might want to ask here is why are the things you label as "internal" more of a problem (or seemingly so) in the Black community than other communities?
Why are young Black men more likely to join a gang and be incarcerated, or young Black women more likely to become pregnant earlier in life and outside a stable relationship? Why is there a perception that Black families care less about education?
Are Blacks by nature more violent and promiscuous, and less industrious and achievement oriented?
Or is there a centuries-long legacy of discrimination and deprivation that has long-lasting cultural impacts that don't simply go away because someone changed a law in 1968?
When someone like Billy says "But what about the Asians" or "What about the Irish," what they're ignoring is that widespread discrimination against those groups in this country can be measured in years,or at worst decades, while for Blacks it's measured in centuries. And includes actual enslavement, not just denial of some employment opportunities.
And when Wags tells us about his college friend from Nigeria, what he's missing is that just because that friend has the same skin color as many Blacks in America, it doesn't mean he faced the same challenges.
None of this is to say that there aren't plenty of self-inflicted wounds in the Black community. There are many. But I think some people are all-too-willing to overlook the multigenerational impacts and legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country.
For one, I did not bring up the Irish. As much as some want to say they were slaves we know that not to be the case. They were indentured servants who could earn their freedom. However, Asians were slaves (Chinese) and were not even allowed to get US citizenship until the 40's. A white person would also be stripped of US citizenship for marrying an Asian. And, Asians were subject to the same discriminatory laws as Blacks were - the SCOTUS even ruled as much.
As for the Civil Rights bill, what happened between 1960 and now where 78% of Black households were two-parent families, to now where a majority are single parent homes? Was it that bill that caused a cultural shift or something else? Serious question.
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For one, I did not bring up the Irish. As much as some want to say they were slaves we know that not to be the case. They were indentured servants who could earn their freedom. However, Asians were slaves (Chinese) and were not even allowed to get US citizenship until the 40's. A white person would also be stripped of US citizenship for marrying an Asian. And, Asians were subject to the same discriminatory laws as Blacks were - the SCOTUS even ruled as much.
As for the Civil Rights bill, what happened between 1960 and now where 78% of Black households were two-parent families, to now where a majority are single parent homes? Was it that bill that caused a cultural shift or something else? Serious question.
I could be wrong but didnt the CIA-Contra- Crack theory get at least partially proven? That was happening at that time, coinciding with Nixon's war on drugs that disproportionally incarcerated African American individuals.
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For one, I did not bring up the Irish. As much as some want to say they were slaves we know that not to be the case. They were indentured servants who could earn their freedom. However, Asians were slaves (Chinese) and were not even allowed to get US citizenship until the 40's. A white person would also be stripped of US citizenship for marrying an Asian. And, Asians were subject to the same discriminatory laws as Blacks were - the SCOTUS even ruled as much.
As for the Civil Rights bill, what happened between 1960 and now where 78% of Black households were two-parent families, to now whnre a majority are single parent homes? Was it that bill that caused a cultural shift or something else? Serious question.
1. No, Billy, there was not widespread slavery of the Chinese in the United States. And certainly not for 250+ years. Chinese laborers absolutely endured horrible treatment, discrimination and denial of basic rights, but not slavery. They weren't brought and kept here against their will. They weren't sold. Their families were not torn apart. They weren't hunted down if they left their workplace. The situations aren't close to comparable.
2. This is a fair question, but with a complex set of answers. And I couldn't possibly touch upon all of them here. But ...
For one, the number of kids in single-parent households has grown significantly for ALL racial groups, not just Black children. For example, in 1960, the figure for white kids in single-parent homes was just 7 percent. Today, it's 24 percent. Unless my math is wrong - and that's absolutely possible - that's about a 250 percent increase, In comparison, the rate for Black children has gone from 26 percent in 1960 to 64 percent today. That's a 146 percent increase.
Other factors:
- The mass incarceration of Black males fueled by overpolicing and unequal sentencing (1 in 3 Black males spend time incarcerated, compared to 1 in 17 white males).
- The death of manufacturing in inner cities.
- Government programs that incentivized single parenthood
- Higher teen pregnancy rates (younger parents are obviously less likely to co-habitate).
I'm sure there are tons of other reasons.
What do you chalk it up to? Serious question.