MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MU82 on June 25, 2021, 04:12:24 PM
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Thought we might want a separate thread on this.
The Athletic just came out with its first post-lottery mock draft:
https://theathletic.com/2662367/2021/06/22/2021-nba-mock-draft-with-lottery-set-cade-cunningham-to-pistons-at-no-1-evan-mobley-jalen-green-follow/?source=dailyemail
Of note ...
++ Top 5: Cunningham (DET), Mobley (HOU), Green (CLE), Suggs (TOR), Kuminga (ORL).
++ Big East players: Bouknight to GS at 7; Robinson-Earl to BKN at 27; Mamu to BKN at 46 (2nd round); Duke to IND at 54 (2nd round).
++ Shaka recruits: Kai Jones to OKC at 16; Greg Brown to DEN at 26.
++ Kinda/almost MU near misses: Jalen Johnson to NY at 21; Grimes to IND at 60 (last pick 2nd round).
++ NPOY Luka Garza to TOR at 46 (2nd round).
++ No Garcia ... no Carton ... no Hauser.
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Jericho Sims is gettting alot of hype as well.
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Bouknight is very good but I never saw him as top 10 pick good.
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Bouknight is very good but I never saw him as top 10 pick good.
some dudes have a skill set that translates much better to the NBA games. I wasn't impressed with Rondo in college and look at the career he's had.
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Bouknight is very good but I never saw him as top 10 pick good.
Rip Hamilton type player?
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I really like Davion Mitchell.
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some dudes have a skill set that translates much better to the NBA games. I wasn't impressed with Rondo in college and look at the career he's had.
Donovan Mitchell and Steven Adams both had fairly underwhelmingly college stats considering their professional successes.
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Donovan Mitchell and Steven Adams both had fairly underwhelmingly college stats considering their professional successes.
To be fair, Steven Adams was always a project big. He didn’t put up impressive numbers even before he came to Pitt. He was always gonna be a lottery pick due to his size and potential even if averaged 1 and 1 in 25 min a game at Pitt that year.
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I really like Davion Mitchell.
Yep. If he really goes in the teens, he very well could end up being the steal of the draft, the guy everybody is saying 2-3 years later: "I can't believe 12 teams passed on him!"
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Yep. If he really goes in the teens, he very well could end up being the steal of the draft, the guy everybody is saying 2-3 years later: "I can't believe 12 teams passed on him!"
Mitchell has shot up draft boards. At this point, I think he goes 7 to Golden State.
Small ball lineup:
Mitchell
Curry
Thompson
Wiggins
Green
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Mitchell has shot up draft boards. At this point, I think he goes 7 to Golden State.
Small ball lineup:
Mitchell
Curry
Thompson
Wiggins
Green
I’m not convinced that GS holds onto that pick yet.
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I’m not convinced that GS holds onto that pick yet.
Yeah, that's possible. Depending on what is available on the trade market, they could package 7, 14, and a player like Kelly Oubre .
But there seems to be a consensus top 7, which Mitchell is part of, and then the draft is wide open after that.
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John Hollinger of The Athletic rated the top-20 picks. He was Grizzlies VP of basketball operations for 7 years and is a big analytics guy. Re 2 we've discussed -- Bouknight and Mitchell -- here's a sample of what he said:
On Bouknight, whom he rates No. 13:
The value proposition here is that high-level shot creation still matters. Bouknight has a lot of Jordan Clarkson in him, both for good and bad, but it’s not hard to imagine him becoming an annual Sixth Man winner.
On Mitchell, whom he rates No. 16:
Everyone has a visceral reaction to ball-pressure guys, and Mitchell was probably the best in college basketball. His lateral quickness is insane; nobody could get by him off the dribble. Mitchell combines that with a bulldog mentality and a zest for taking charges. He’ll be a Patrick Beverley or Avery Bradley type checking other point guards, a real pain in the ass to play against. Mitchell also shot 44.7 percent from 3-point range last season and showed real growth as an on-ball distributor. Mitchell also has a tremendous blow-by gear to the rim and shot a stellar 56.5 percent inside the arc. Offensively, his 3-point shooting from last season may be an outlier; he still only hit 64.1 percent from the line, and finished his career at 65.7 percent. To add, Mitchell also virtually never draws fouls. He’s also one of the older players in this draft, turning 22 in September. In an offense-first league, I still have a hard time seeing starter upside in Mitchell at that end. His defense will surely keep him on the court, and his work ethic and intangibles will push him up draft boards as well, but today’s NBA is a tough place for ball-pressure guys to shine.
Hollinger and some others rate Baylor teammate Jared Butler a better prospect. (He has Butler at 11.)
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John Hollinger of The Athletic rated the top-20 picks. He was Grizzlies VP of basketball operations for 7 years and is a big analytics guy. Re 2 we've discussed -- Bouknight and Mitchell -- here's a sample of what he said:
Hollinger and some others rate Baylor teammate Jared Butler a better prospect. (He has Butler at 11.)
Interesting. I really like Butler. Most guys have him in the 30-40 range.
I was hoping Bucks could get him with the 1st pick of the 2nd round.
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Donovan Mitchell and Steven Adams both had fairly underwhelmingly college stats considering their professional successes.
Cannot believe none of us have mentioned Jimmy Butler yet. Two-time BE Honorable Mention.
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Cannot believe none of us have mentioned Jimmy Butler yet. Two-time BE Honorable Mention.
Butler's advanced stats at MU were incredibly good
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Cannot believe none of us have mentioned Jimmy Butler yet. Two-time BE Honorable Mention.
Butler had much, much, much better stats than Adams, and a much deeper body of work than Mitchell.
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Butler had much, much, much better stats than Adams, and a much deeper body of work than Mitchell.
Right. But wasn’t the story only Chicago had him rated as a first rounder?
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Right. But wasn’t the story only Chicago had him rated as a first rounder?
Billy, DJOver said Mitchell and Adams had underwhelming college stats considering their pro success. You responded by wondering why nobody mentioned Jimmy.
We’ll, nobody mentioned Jimmy because he actually had good college stats.
Nobody is debating that Jimmy has far exceeded expectations.
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Billy, DJOver said Mitchell and Adams had underwhelming college stats considering their pro success. You responded by wondering why nobody mentioned Jimmy.
We’ll, nobody mentioned Jimmy because he actually had good college stats.
Nobody is debating that Jimmy has far exceeded expectations.
But stats don’t really matter. Skills do.
If it was about stats, Luke Garza goes #1. In reality, he will be lucky to be drafted in the 2nd round.
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But stats don’t really matter. Skills do.
If it was about stats, Luke Garza goes #1. In reality, he will be lucky to be drafted in the 2nd round.
Have I argued against that? Has anybody?
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Have I argued against that? Has anybody?
No.
Yes.
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No.
Yes.
OK. I suggest you take it up with them if it bothers you enough!
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Thought we might want a separate thread on this.
The Athletic just came out with its first post-lottery mock draft:
https://theathletic.com/2662367/2021/06/22/2021-nba-mock-draft-with-lottery-set-cade-cunningham-to-pistons-at-no-1-evan-mobley-jalen-green-follow/?source=dailyemail
Of note ...
++ Top 5: Cunningham (DET), Mobley (HOU), Green (CLE), Suggs (TOR), Kuminga (ORL).
++ Big East players: Bouknight to GS at 7; Robinson-Earl to BKN at 27; Mamu to BKN at 46 (2nd round); Duke to IND at 54 (2nd round).
++ Shaka recruits: Kai Jones to OKC at 16; Greg Brown to DEN at 26.
++ Kinda/almost MU near misses: Jalen Johnson to NY at 21; Grimes to IND at 60 (last pick 2nd round).
++ NPOY Luka Garza to TOR at 46 (2nd round).
++ No Garcia ... no Carton ... no Hauser.
Some changes in The Athletic's mock draft 2.0:
Top 5: Cunningham, Green, Mobley, Suggs, Barnes.
Big East: Bouknight to CHA at 11; JRE to UTA at 30
Also: Jalen Johnson to SA at 12
Didn't do a second round this time.
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I think the top 6 are locked in even though there are differing opinions on the order of 2 through 6.
After that, we generally know most of the lottery picks, but it will be determined more by team needs than anything else.
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A line in today's NBA notes column in The Athletic:
Villanova forward Jeremiah Robinson-Earl has impressed teams, including New Orleans, as he continues to solidify a potential first-round position.
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The Athletic's John Hollinger, a former team exec, provides his top 70.
https://theathletic.com/2700529/2021/07/14/hollingers-top-70-players-for-the-2021-nba-draft-cade-no-1-and-why-alperen-sengun-deserves-more-hype/?source=dailyemail
Not a whole lot is different from others we've seen and posted about -- except he has Nova's JRE way, way, way low for being "a below-average athlete," and has Turkish teen Alperen Sengun as the No. 4 prospect who will be a double-double machine as a poor man's Kevin Love -- but I did get a kick out of this about Luka Garza (bolded emphasis is mine):
Look, I get the skepticism. Garza is slow as hell and there is a good chance he gets abused so badly in pick-and-roll that there is just no amount of offense he can provide to make up for it.
But at this point in the draft (No. 50), let me just posit a question: What if we’re wrong? What if he’s at least quasi-passable on defense? Garza annihilates opponents on post-ups, shot 44.0 percent from 3 as a senior, and showed some development as a playmaker from the elbows. Can he be Brad Miller? Or, more realistically, can he be something like a Boban Marjanovic-type situational player?
Maybe not. Garza had the worst no-step vertical at the combine and the slowest sprint time by a full 0.16 seconds, and his defensive tape at Iowa is MY EYES! OUCH! BURNING ACID!
But again, a lot of the draft is about risk and reward. The odds of any late second-round pick failing are really high. Garza at least gives you a chance to make a case for why he might buck the trend.
Oh, and FWIW, no mention of Sam Hauser in his 70.
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Differing opinions on Garza:
https://www.nbadraft.net/biggest-winners-and-losers-of-the-nba-draft-combine/ (https://www.nbadraft.net/biggest-winners-and-losers-of-the-nba-draft-combine/)
Winners:
Nah'Shon Hyland, VCU (6’2.0” barefoot, 6’3.5” in shoes, 8’5.5” standing reach, 169.0 lbs, 6’9.25” wingspan)
“Bones” (pictured) was the big standout on Day One, and made the smart decision to shut it down after such an impressive performance. He showed why his draft stock has been rising since the collegiate season finished. He was everywhere on both ends of the court, dominating in his 23 minutes in a 19-point blowout win, knocking down three 3s and putting up 17 points in very impressive fashion. Hyland has always been a knockdown shooter and that was clearly on display. He raised his scoring average by ten points and became a defensive menace this past season. The sophomore capped off a sterling combine by posting the second fastest lane agility time at 10.53 seconds. There is so much to love about Hyland as a player, between the beautiful shooting stroke, scoring punch and defensive intensity, and all these strengths were on full display at the combine. Hyland lacks height for a combo, at just 6’2 barefoot, but he has a massive 6’9.25 wingspan and recorded a 8’5.5 standing reach which is prototypical for an NBA 2-guard. He figures to ultimately find a spot in the second half of the first round and fill the role of instant offense off the bench perfectly (a la prime Louis Williams or Jordan Clarkson) at the next level.
Keon Johnson, Tennessee (6’3.5” barefoot, 6’4.75” in shoes, 8’1.0” standing reach, 184.8 lbs, 6’7.25″ wingspan)
Speaking of standouts. The former five-star recruit and Volunteer standout, freshman Keon Johnson made a big statement with his incredible testing numbers. Johnson shattered a 20-year-old combine record with a max vertical leap of 48 inches. That number broke Kenny Gregory’s record of 45.5 inches in 2001 and beat second place Jericho Sims by 3.5 inches. He also broke the record for standing vertical leap, at 41.5 inches. This otherworldly display of athleticism certainly increased Johnson’s name recognition, but also helped boost his draft stock. Posting gaudy, record-breaking numbers is an excellent way to remind scouts and general managers about his insane leaping ability and athleticism and let the all-around basketball game come in the next few seasons. He also tied for second among all guards in the three-quarter sprint, highlighting how special of an athlete he is. As well as Johnson performed in the athleticism testing, his measurement were a below expectations at 6’3.5 barefoot and 6’7 wingspan. His 8’1 standing reach being the biggest negative, is amazingly 4 inches smaller than Bones Hyland.
Joe Wieskamp, Iowa (6’5.75” barefoot, 6’7.25” in shoes, 8’7.0” standing reach 204.8 lbs, 6’11.0” wingpsan)
Wieskamp has always been a lights out three-point shooter. After three years in Iowa City, Wieskamp had buried 184 triples with a 41% success rate. He still came to the combine ready to remind talent evaluators of the kind of threat he can be when he gets hot. Wieskamp had a solid first scrimmage, scoring eight points on 3/7 shooting. The second game is where he lit the gym on fire. Wieskamp nailed six threes on seven attempts, while scoring 26 points on 71% shooting, pulling in 10 rebounds, blocking one shot, and grabbing three steals in 26 minutes. He didn’t have any assists, but it was the most dominant game of the scrimmages. His 26 points were the second most in any of the four games, and only one of two scoring outputs over 20. The initially projected late second round pick also flashed some serious hops with a 42-inch vertical leap, tying for fourth best among all participants. He also ran the fourth fastest lane agility test, at 10.7 seconds. Wieskamp had often been overlooked during his time in Ames, Iowa because most of the attention went to Luka Garza. At the NBA Combine however, all eyes were on him, and his masterful shooting stroke.
Jericho Sims, Texas (6’9.0” barefoot, 6’10.0” in shoes, 8’10.0” standing reach, 250.2 lbs, 7’3.25”wingspan)
Sims had a tremendous combine, with terrific numbers both on and off the court. Off the hardwood, Sims showed his hops off by placing second in both the max vertical leap and standing vertical leap. These numbers can be crucial for bigs, especially ones who don’t space the floor like Sims. Showing how well he can get vertical demonstrates the kind of disrupter he can be on the interior defensively, and a rim-runner and alley-oop finisher offensively. He also had the best time among centers in the three-quarter sprint and lane agility test, further cementing his elite athleticism for a player of his size. Despite not being one of the five tallest players measured, Sims tied for the second longest wingspan with a massive 7’3.25 wingspan. He simply could not have put up stronger numbers, and reminded teams of his elite speed, verticality, and long arms. However, the testing numbers may not have been the best part of the combine for the senior Longhorn. Between his two scrimmages Sims scored 29 points on 74% shooting, had 10 rebounds, two assists, two steals, and his team won both games. Between the testing results and the scrimmages, Sims helped prove that he has ideal size and athleticism to be an impactful NBA center on both ends of the court, while scoring with relative ease to prop up his offensive game. Sim’s draft combine performance helped quell many immediate concerns. And he also had the most impressive dunk of the combine, converting a two handed allyoop where his head was at rim level, to cap off day 2. Sims seems to be firmly entrenched in the mid second round as one of the most intriguing projects available, and could sneak into the top 10-12 picks in the second round.
EJ Onu, PF/C, Shawnee State (6’9.75” barefoot, 6’10.75” in shoes, 9’6.0” standing reach, 204.8 lbs, 7’8.0″ wingspan)
Pre-draft measurements are the perfect opportunity for players like Onu who are relatively unknown and have rarely been seen in person during a game. The 6’11 big-man who blocked 529 shots in his career confirmed his ridiculous length with a 7’8 wingspan measurement during the pre-draft process. His 9’6 standing reach is absolutely jawdropping. He is starting to become more well-known, and it would not be surprising to see a team take a chance on this project who has all of the potential in the world as a rim-protecting, stretch-five in the mid-second round. Onu fits the style of an evolving NBA, and some team will likely recognize this at some point in the draft and bring on the 21-year-old big man. -Derek Bast
Moses Moody, SG, Arkansas (6’4.5” barefoot, 6’6.0” in shoes, 8’9.0” standing reach, 210.6 lbs, 7’0.75” wingspan)
Moody is a projected lottery pick and he is almost certainly a lock after his measurements at the combine. His long arms and size are what make his mid-range game so appealing as he is able to rise up above opponents and rarely feel a true contested shot. We saw why he was able to do this so often at the college level because of his wingspan that stretches longer than 7 feet. This measurement is the longest out of listed shooting guards on our site and rivals the length of Scottie Lewis and Trey Murphy who are two of the longer wings in this year’s class. -Derek Bast
DJ Stewart, SG/SF, Mississippi State (6’4.5” barefoot, 6’6.0” in shoes, 8’9.0” standing reach, 204.4 lbs, 7’0.5” wingspan)
One player who has consistently ranked higher on our draft board and mock drafts than most other sites is DJ Stewart from Mississippi State. His measurements are almost identical to Moses Moody’s who obviously can shoot it a lot better, but lacks the same speed and versatility. With a legitimate 6’6 height in shoes and a 7-foot wingspan, his measurements should have his stock on the rise. Stewart is a physical wing player who doubled his scoring output from a season ago and improved as a three-point scorer in both volume and percentage. He only played two season with the Bulldogs showing that his dramatic improvement could continue with more time and exposure to stiff competition. Stewart can also create for others to go along with his impressive shooting and his confirmed impressive length might be the final check mark a team needs to give this guy a shot in the second round. -Derek Bast
Ayo Dosunmu, SG/PG, Illinois Fighting Illini (6’3.5”barefoot, 6’5.0” in shoes, 8’0.5” standing reach, 194.4 lbs, 6’10.25” wingspan)
While Dosunmu projects more as a shooting guard, he will undoubtedly take control of the ball and initiate the offense at times so his 6’3.5 height without shoes is very solid. What truly stands out from his measurements was his 6’10 wingspan that is one of the biggest discrepancies between height and wingspan in the entire class. His two-way impact will certainly flourish because of his tremendous length for a smaller guard. We know what Dosunmu can do on the court with his shot creation and scoring, but the obnoxious wingspan will lead to more subtle impacts on the opposite end of the floor that will earn him more consistent minutes in his young career. -Derek Bast
Luka Garza, PF/C, Iowa Hawkeyes (6’10.0” barefoot, 6’11.25” in shoes, 8’11.5” standing reach, 242.8 lbs, 7’1.5” wingspan)
When you have a National Player of the Year who was as dominant as Garza was for a two-year stretch, it is rare to see a complete makeover in such a short time. With that being said, the all-time leading scorer for the Hawkeyes looks like a completely different animal after slimming down to 242 pounds and showcasing more handling and athleticism than we’ve ever seen from him. Scouts questioned his ability to transition to a completely different style of basketball in the NBA that is far less dependent on post-scoring, but if his transformed frame is any indication of what is to come, Garza is more than ready to adapt to the style of the professional game. He still lacks great foot speed and athleticism, but with such a premium on shooting in today’s game, it’s conceivable that Garza can find a way with such a strong work ethic and determination. Garza stands a much better chance of being drafted following the combine than he did coming in. .-Derek Bast
David Duke SG/PG Providence (6’4.25” barefoot, 6’5.5” in shoes, 8’6.5” standing reach, 203.6 lbs, 6’8.75” wingspan)
Duke measured extremely well at 6’5 in shoes and with a 6-8.75 wingspan and a 8-6.5 standing reach, great numbers for a shooting guard, much less a combo guard. Duke still needs to improve on his decision making and shooting. However he’s got very good ball skills and speed and athleticism. He’s seen as a likely second rounder, however his combine measurements certainly help his cause. Duke’s 5.9 fat perecntage was also very solid for a guy with more weight than most players his height, showing that he’s got a lot of muscle mass.
Losers
Jeremiah Robinson-Earl, PF, Villanova Wildcats (6’7.75” barefoot, 6’9.0” in shoes, 8’9.5” standing reach, 242.4 lbs, 6’9.75” wingspan)
Prototypical power forwards are expected to be in the 6’9 to 6-10 range with a 7-foot plus wingspan and a standing reach in . Robinson-Earl is a frontcourt player who only measured at 6’7 last week with a 6’9 wingspan. He can certainly stretch the floor, but he makes his living from mid-range and on the low block on both ends of the floor. With these new measurements, the former Wildcat will be at a severe disadvantage against the frontcourt players he will meet at the next level. Robinson-Earl could find himself caught in the middle of a SF and PF with no true match up advantages at the next level, which will cut into his playing time with teams searching for a role for the college standout.On the bright side, despite just a 6’9.75 wingspan, his standing reach is decent for a player that is likely going to be playing in the post at the next level. -Derek Bast
Marcus Zegarowski, Creighton (6’0.75” barefoot, 6’2.0”in shoes, 8’0.0” standing reach, 180.8 lbs, 6’2.75 wingspan”
Zegarowski had a nightmare combine performance. Despite averaging almost 16 points per game last year on solid efficiency, Zegarowski scored just seven points while shooting two of six from the floor and one of five from deep with four turnovers and only two assists in a forty-point defeat. Game two was even worse for the 6’2 point guard, tallying 8 points on 1 of 12 shooting while going one of nine from three with four turnovers. In the second game, Zegarowski did have five assists, but this was a difficult showing from a player who was so consistently good over the past few seasons. To add to the misery, Zegarowski did not test particularly well, as he didn’t place in the top five amongst guards in a single category. Shooting 3 of 18 with eight turnovers between games, and it is safe to say that the former Creighton star had a dreadful showing. For a player that is not firmly entrenched in a high draft slot, every opportunity to showcase both your basketball skill and athletic ability is paramount. Unfortunately for Zegarowski, this was a golden opportunity wasted.
Johnny Juzang, UCLA (6’5.5” barefoot, 6’7.0” in shoes, 8’4.5” standing reach, 209.0 lbs, 6’10.5” wingspan)
Nobody had a better March than former Bruins star Johnny Juzang. The 6’6 sophomore led UCLA to a shocking final four run with immaculate performance after immaculate performance. That magical run ended with a deep buzzer beater, but Juzang’s stock rose rapidly. He did not have that same effervescence with him in Chicago. He scored only 11 points between the two games, hitting 5/21 shots and 1/8 from deep. To deepen the difficulty for Juzang, he had less assists than turnovers, with three turnovers and two assists. For a player that was scorching hot for a whole tournament, it was a frustrating couple of performances as he was unable to replicate the same shot-making and general brilliance he showed for UCLA. A decent combine showing, coming forth among guards in the shuttle run, and being the second tallest guard with the third longest wingspan. His height and length improves his positional versatility, but it does not make up for what was otherwise a challenging week. Juzang has announced he will return to UCLA.
Dashien Nix, G League Ignite (6’3.0” barefoot, 6’4.25” in shoes, 8’4.0” standing reach, 225.6 lbs, 6’6.75” wingspan)
The former consensus five-star recruit, and number three point guard in the 2020 class, Nix chose to join the professional ranks with the G League Ignite. After a shaky season in which he scored just 8.8 points per game on 38% shooting and an abysmal 17.6% three-point shooting, Nix needed a captivating showing at the combine. Instead, he scored just one point between the two scrimmages, missing all ten of his field goal attempts, and adding six turnovers. He did contribute six assists in both contests, illustrating his quick decision making and feel for the game. Yet, with such a limited scoring output against G league players, combined with almost no scoring against colleges top players, it is more and more challenging to see Nix’s role on an NBA team. Especially as the NBA has moved more towards a spaced, three-point shooting, offense heavy league, Nix doesn’t fit the mold. While that has been on display the whole season with Ignite, he absolutely confirmed those doubts with his combine performance. On the bright side, he showed off his athleticism with impressive vertical numbers in the combine athleticism testing.
Greg Brown, F Texas (6’7.25” barefoot, 6’8.5” in shoes, 8’11.0” standing reach, 206.4 lbs, 7’0.25″ wingspan)
The Texas forward apparent didn’t get the memo about hustle in the combine scrimmage. He could be seen jogging up the floor behind the play, in the middle of game action. Not the look NBA teams are looking for from a player that’s considered a fringe first rounder. Brown should have been flying up and down the court and showing the, “what can I do for you next coach” attitude. But instead he didn’t seem to understand that even when the spotlight isn’t on you, you’re being watched. Brown shot just 1-3 on day 1. One positive, Brown recorded the best shuttle run of anyone at under 3 seconds. But for a player that lacks polish, showing better hustle would have been big in convincing NBA decision makers that he’s willing to put the work in to improve his deficiencies. Another positive note, Brown’s standing reach is extremely impressive at 8’11.
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I just cant see Garza being an effective NBA player. Even if he is slimmed down, he's just slow and while he can shoot, his jumper and release is also very slow.
Zegarowski I'm not entirely surprised by. He was so enigmatic this year. Sometimes he was an absolute stud, sometimes he was a mess. Shockingly inconsistent
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Thanks for all that interesting stuff, lawdog.
Agree with Wags about Zegarowski. I do not see an NBA player there.
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The Athletic's Sam Vecenie just released his final "top 100 big board."
Top 5 has no surprises: Cunningham, Suggs, Mobley, Green, Kuminga.
Big East: 9, Bouknight; 30, JRE; 45, Mamu; 63, Duke; 82, Zegarowski; 88, Ballock.
Hauser at No. 67.
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I just cant see Garza being an effective NBA player. Even if he is slimmed down, he's just slow and while he can shoot, his jumper and release is also very slow.
Zegarowski I'm not entirely surprised by. He was so enigmatic this year. Sometimes he was an absolute stud, sometimes he was a mess. Shockingly inconsistent
he's a poor man's Frank Kaminski.
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The Athletic's Sam Vecenie just released his final "top 100 big board."
Top 5 has no surprises: Cunningham, Suggs, Mobley, Green, Kuminga.
Big East: 9, Bouknight; 30, JRE; 45, Mamu; 63, Duke; 82, Zegarowski; 88, Ballock.
Hauser at No. 67.
Very mixed review on Hauser. One of the two best shooters in the draft, but atrocious on defense. Virginia had its worst defense in the last 10 years with Sam.
Sam can’t guard ANY NBA player. Look at how Suns player’s eyes lit up whenever Connaughton was on them. Instantly took him to the hole. And, Pat is way, way more athletic than Sam and not an awful defender.
As expected, no mention of Carton in top 100 despite there being numerous guys who only scored 5-10 points a game.
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Very mixed review on Hauser. One of the two best shooters in the draft, but atrocious on defense. Virginia had its worst defense in the last 10 years with Sam.
Sam can’t guard ANY NBA player. Look at how Suns player’s eyes lit up whenever Connaughton was on them. Instantly took him to the hole. And, Pat is way, way more athletic than Sam and not an awful defender.
As expected, no mention of Carton in top 100 despite there being numerous guys who only scored 5-10 points a game.
Hauser will have an NBA career IMHO. Every single team in the league is desperate for shooting, and he is -- according to my sources -- one of the two best shooters in the draft.
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What do the Bucks look for with their only pick (#1 of 2nd rd, I think)?
Draft a high upside project/gamble while you don't really need any day 1 help with the roster that's already under contract?
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Hauser will have an NBA career IMHO. Every single team in the league is desperate for shooting, and he is -- according to my sources -- one of the two best shooters in the draft.
His shooting ability means that he will be given every opportunity to make an NBA team. Will that be enough, I don't know. Really no one does until he shows what he has. Even if he has to take the Matt Thomas route through Europe.
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His shooting ability means that he will be given every opportunity to make an NBA team. Will that be enough, I don't know. Really no one does until he shows what he has. Even if he has to take the Matt Thomas route through Europe.
Agree.
Markus made it on his shooting ability, so anything is possible. Both are willing defenders - they just each have physical limitations.
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What do the Bucks look for with their only pick (#1 of 2nd rd, I think)?
Draft a high upside project/gamble while you don't really need any day 1 help with the roster that's already under contract?
Think you you gotta try to find a contributor, even a long wing who can defend. If my calculations are correct, they return: GA, Khris, Jrue, Brook, Pat C, Donte are all locks. Forbes will probably pick up his player option, Tucker has his Bird rights, and will probably pick up his 15 mil, they won’t let Thanais leave 😂…then Portis, who probably made himself a bunch of money, he has player option for 4mil he should probably turn down…could easily see his market like 4/40 or 3/36, not sure if the Bucks will pay that 🤷🏼♂️
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Think you you gotta try to find a contributor, even a long wing who can defend. If my calculations are correct, they return: GA, Khris, Jrue, Brook, Pat C, Donte are all locks. Forbes will probably pick up his player option, Tucker has his Bird rights, and will probably pick up his 15 mil, they won’t let Thanais leave 😂…then Portis, who probably made himself a bunch of money, he has player option for 4mil he should probably turn down…could easily see his market like 4/40 or 3/36, not sure if the Bucks will pay that 🤷🏼♂️
they should just offer him the merch rights on all the goofy Bobby swag that is about to flood the streets.
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Hauser will have an NBA career IMHO. Every single team in the league is desperate for shooting, and he is -- according to my sources -- one of the two best shooters in the draft.
The Suns should take a hard look at Sam. They need 3 point shooting.
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The Suns should take a hard look at Sam. They need 3 point shooting.
They shot 39% for the Finals.
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They shot 39% for the Finals.
They were also had the 7th best 3P% in the regular season though they were only 15th in attempts.
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They shot 39% for the Finals.
Yep. Crowder, CP3, Bridges, and Cam Payne all shot 39% or better on 3+ attempts for the year. And thats not including Booker who is an excellent shooter who can light it up from deep in stretches and Cam Johnson who shot 35% for the year but 45% in the playoffs.
You can never have enough outside shooting in the NBA, but its hardly a glaring need for a team with the shooters listed who shot 38% as a team during the regular season
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And he wouldn’t exactly help in slowing down the Bucks offense, which was their real issue.
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His shooting ability means that he will be given every opportunity to make an NBA team. Will that be enough, I don't know. Really no one does until he shows what he has. Even if he has to take the Matt Thomas route through Europe.
I certainly don't know. I just think Hauser is good enough at what every team wants that he will secure a roster spot on an NBA team within the next 2 years.
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Very mixed review on Hauser. One of the two best shooters in the draft, but atrocious on defense. Virginia had its worst defense in the last 10 years with Sam.
Sam can’t guard ANY NBA player. Look at how Suns player’s eyes lit up whenever Connaughton was on them. Instantly took him to the hole. And, Pat is way, way more athletic than Sam and not an awful defender.
True, but Sam doesn’t have to be even a Connaughton level defender to stick in the league. I think there’s a niche for him. His shooting ability may get him a spot as a 10th man for awhile like Novak.
I would suspect he’d improve his quickness and athleticism in the NBA. His struggles don’t seem to be an IQ issue or effort, but just being a step slow. Connaughton is a key contributor for a championship team. The bar for sticking in the league is a decent bit below him in my opinion.
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I certainly don't know. I just think Hauser is good enough at what every team wants that he will secure a roster spot on an NBA team within the next 2 years.
I expected *someone* to take a flyer on Markus. Shooting is so valuable that spending an end of the bench/2-way/G-league spot on someone who might be able develop the holes in his game while bringing such + shooting to the table seems like a decent risk/reward. I can see the same analysis for Sam. But, hey, it's not like I know what I'm talking about, so if he doesn't get a shot somewhere it's not like I'll be stunned.
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I expected *someone* to take a flyer on Markus. Shooting is so valuable that spending an end of the bench/2-way/G-league spot on someone who might be able develop the holes in his game while bringing such + shooting to the table seems like a decent risk/reward. I can see the same analysis for Sam. But, hey, it's not like I know what I'm talking about, so if he doesn't get a shot somewhere it's not like I'll be stunned.
I agree with your point, but you can’t develop Markus to be 6’3” and you can’t really develop Sam into an NBA-type athlete.
Kyle Korver had a very long career in the NBA based solely on his shooting, but he was a lot more athletic than Sam.
He would need to find the perfect team to cover his defensive weaknesses.
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I agree with your point, but you can’t develop Markus to be 6’3” and you can’t really develop Sam into an NBA-type athlete.
Kyle Korver had a very long career in the NBA based solely on his shooting, but he was a lot more athletic than Sam.
He would need to find the perfect team to cover his defensive weaknesses.
Right, and someone took a flyer on Markus. Does he stick in the league? I dunno, that's not what we're talking about. My guess is someone takes a flyer on Sam for the same reason. Whether he will have a "very long career" is irrelevant.
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Right, and someone took a flyer on Markus. Does he stick in the league? I dunno, that's not what we're talking about. My guess is someone takes a flyer on Sam for the same reason. Whether he will have a "very long career" is irrelevant.
Love these debates, Ficke. Time will prove us right or wrong.
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I agree with your point, but you can’t develop Markus to be 6’3” and you can’t really develop Sam into an NBA-type athlete.
Kyle Korver had a very long career in the NBA based solely on his shooting, but he was a lot more athletic than Sam.
He would need to find the perfect team to cover his defensive weaknesses.
I always really liked Sam and hopefully I am proven wrong about his NBA prospects but the highlighted is spot on.
Edit: I think he will be a really good coach someday though. At Marquette and UVA, he was always talking to teammates, even when on the sidelines, telling them what he was seeing develop. The guy had great court vision and never got the credit he deserved for being a player-coach who covered as best he could for Wojo's woeful game coaching.
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I always really liked Sam and hopefully I am proven wrong about his NBA prospects but the highlighted is spot on.
Edit: I think he will be a really good coach someday though. At Marquette and UVA, he was always talking to teammates, even when on the sidelines, telling them what he was seeing develop. The guy had great court vision and never got the credit he deserved for being a player-coach who covered as best he could for Wojo's woeful game coaching.
I hope I am wrong, as well. I like seeing as many MU guys as possible in the league.
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Kyle Korver had a very long career in the NBA based solely on his shooting, but he was a lot more athletic than Sam.
A lot more? Hmm.
Novak had a 10-year NBA career ... and Hauser is more (and maybe a lot more) athletic than Novak was.
As you said, we'll get to see instead of debate it soon enough!
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A lot more? Hmm.
Novak had a 10-year NBA career ... and Hauser is more (and maybe a lot more) athletic than Novak was.
As you said, we'll get to see instead of debate it soon enough!
You're correct. However, Novak was a lights-out spot shooter. Meaning, that with time, an automatic bucket with minimal net movement. Very few guys, including Sam, have that skill-set.
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You're correct. However, Novak was a lights-out spot shooter. Meaning, that with time, an automatic bucket with minimal net movement. Very few guys, including Sam, have that skill-set.
We don't know if Hauser will be able to shoot the NBA 3 as well as Novak did. But as college players, Novak shot 46% and Hauser 44%. That's better, but it's not crazy better. And Sam certainly had lights-out, spot-shooting skill-set in college.
We'll see!
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Is Hauser really a better athlete than Novak?
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Is Hauser really a better athlete than Novak?
Not even close IMO. Sam is a very good basketball player but I think people forget how good Novak was
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Novak/Sam KenPom stuff:
His senior year, his real shooting % was 64.3%. Junior year, it was 61.7%. He didn’t rebound but he made up for that by never turning the ball over and making every FT. His last two years, he was 28th and 26th in the nation in 3%.
Sam was 61% and 57% real shooting his senior and junior years. He was 139th and 214th in 3PT % those years, however, he was best in the ACC in 2021 and 15th in the BE in 2019. Sam is a way better rebounder, at least in college and also didn’t turn it over.
Steve was a better shooter. Maybe not a lot better but arguably enough to make a difference why he had an NBA career
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We don't know if Hauser will be able to shoot the NBA 3 as well as Novak did. But as college players, Novak shot 46% and Hauser 44%. That's better, but it's not crazy better. And Sam certainly had lights-out, spot-shooting skill-set in college.
We'll see!
I'm not sure you understand what "lights-out" means. In the most basic terms it's analogous to watching a cheetah vs anyone in a 100m-800m sprint. In other words I had 0.0 anxiety when SN had an open J with time to spare. The same cannot be said for Sam, Markus, AR, or any of MU's elite shooters. It was automatic and stress-free consistently.
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Extending this discussion....if your life depended on someone drilling a 24 foot J who would you go with? Curry? Bird?
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We don't know if Hauser will be able to shoot the NBA 3 as well as Novak did. But as college players, Novak shot 46% and Hauser 44%. That's better, but it's not crazy better. And Sam certainly had lights-out, spot-shooting skill-set in college.
We'll see!
Both Novak and Korver (mentioned earlier) had/have much quicker releases than Sam. Korver in particular as he could come off a screen and jump/release in one super-quick motion. I’ve never seen Sam do anything close to that. Novak’s release was also much quicker, but Korver had them both beat.
Sam is very deliberate in his shot mechanics and it works for him, but it is a strike against his NBA aspirations IMO.
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Novak/Sam KenPom stuff:
His senior year, his real shooting % was 64.3%. Junior year, it was 61.7%. He didn’t rebound but he made up for that by never turning the ball over and making every FT. His last two years, he was 28th and 26th in the nation in 3%.
Sam was 61% and 57% real shooting his senior and junior years. He was 139th and 214th in 3PT % those years, however, he was best in the ACC in 2021 and 15th in the BE in 2019. Sam is a way better rebounder, at least in college and also didn’t turn it over.
Steve was a better shooter. Maybe not a lot better but arguably enough to make a difference why he had an NBA career
Sam isn’t quite the shooter that Novak was, but he is very, very good AND mentally Sam is very good as well.
We will find out if that overcomes the lack of NBA-type athleticism.
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We don't know if Hauser will be able to shoot the NBA 3 as well as Novak did. But as college players, Novak shot 46% and Hauser 44%. That's better, but it's not crazy better. And Sam certainly had lights-out, spot-shooting skill-set in college.
We'll see!
One positive point in Sams favor is he continued to shoot well in college after the 3 point line was moved out farther this year .
Also when carefully examining Sams career he was a consistent 3 point shooter game after game . Not super streaky . His stroke was extremely consistent and well formed.
I agree with you and believe some NBA team will provide an opportunity for Sam .
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I'm not sure you understand what "lights-out" means. In the most basic terms it's analogous to watching a cheetah vs anyone in a 100m-800m sprint. In other words I had 0.0 anxiety when SN had an open J with time to spare. The same cannot be said for Sam, Markus, AR, or any of MU's elite shooters. It was automatic and stress-free consistently.
Why do you keep doing this man? I respect your passion for basketball, but you ignore statistics and actual facts for these completely subjective assessments that are founded in nothing. If both players took 100 3s in college, Steve would make 2 more. Yet you make it sound like he was a 40% shooter and Novak from 3 was like his FT shooting. You make yourself sound like a silly homer talking like that, be better.
Not even close IMO. Sam is a very good basketball player but I think people forget how good Novak was
People aren't saying who was a better player, just who was a better pure athlete. Novak wasn't gonna take anyone off the dribble or out quick anyone. Novak had a quicker release but Sam has better hops and explosiveness than Novak does even if he isn't Deonte Burton.
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Extending this discussion....if your life depended on someone drilling a 24 foot J who would you go with? Curry? Bird?
Is it defended? Because open/in practice either hits them almost as often as they want. I'll take Curry but frankly it doesn't matter.
If it's live action, then I guess I take Steve Kerr because he's the alltime 3 point percentage leader in NBA history and numbers don't lie.
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Both Novak and Korver (mentioned earlier) had/have much quicker releases than Sam. Korver in particular as he could come off a screen and jump/release in one super-quick motion. I’ve never seen Sam do anything close to that. Novak’s release was also much quicker, but Korver had them both beat.
Sam is very deliberate in his shot mechanics and it works for him, but it is a strike against his NBA aspirations IMO.
The eye test says this, but the scouting reports I have read say that Hauser gets his shot off plenty quick enough, he can do it off the bounce and he has good height to shoot over most any defender.
There is Steph quick, and there is Jokich slow. Hauser is in the middle IMHO. I don't think it will keep him from having an NBA career, but maybe it will.
For the record, I am not predicting that Hauser will get drafted, though I wouldn't be stunned if he ended up being a second-rounder. I do think he will get at least a two-way contract ... and from there we'll see.
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Extending this discussion....if your life depended on someone drilling a 24 foot J who would you go with? Curry? Bird?
Is it defended? Because open/in practice either hits them almost as often as they want. I'll take Curry but frankly it doesn't matter.
If it's live action, then I guess I take Steve Kerr because he's the alltime 3 point percentage leader in NBA history and numbers don't lie.
I think these discussions and statistics based analysis across generations is futile. In Bird's days (and Kerr's) the 3 point shot wasn't a focus. Bird was pre-3pt focus, but was unquestionably the best 3-point shooter of his era, and possibly the best pure shooter. He once scored 47 points in a game shooting left-handed. Kerr shot an amazing percentage, but low volume, mostly open shots.
Someone like Curry takes as many 3 point shots in a month, as many from that era took in a career. So statistic not comparable.
What is true, is that all three were elite shooters.
Now if the question is simply 1 shot uncontested. I have to go with Curry or Novak. They simply have shot the volumes needed to stand out, and Novak once hit 95/100 in a tryout, and Curry 94/100 in drills (77 in a row). Those are freakish numbers I don't think anyone else can match. And Kerr has said Curry is a better shooter than him.
But if you take Kerr or Bird, and have them grow up in this era, and they are hitting 94 or 95 out of a hundred too.
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I think these discussions and statistics based analysis across generations is futile. In Bird's days (and Kerr's) the 3 point shot wasn't a focus. Bird was pre-3pt focus, but was unquestionably the best 3-point shooter of his era, and possibly the best pure shooter. He once scored 47 points in a game shooting left-handed. Kerr shot an amazing percentage, but low volume, mostly open shots.
Someone like Curry takes as many 3 point shots in a month, as many from that era took in a career. So statistic not comparable.
What is true, is that all three were elite shooters.
Now if the question is simply 1 shot uncontested. I have to go with Curry or Novak. They simply have shot the volumes needed to stand out, and Novak once hit 95/100 in a tryout, and Curry 94/100 in drills (77 in a row). Those are freakish numbers I don't think anyone else can match. And Kerr has said Curry is a better shooter than him.
But if you take Kerr or Bird, and have them grow up in this era, and they are hitting 94 or 95 out of a hundred too.
Given that several contemporaries made 3s at a higher percentage than Bird did -- Mark Price, Dale Ellis and Craig Hodges to name three -- Bird wasn't "unquestionably the best 3-point shooter of his era." I probably would have taken your boy to shoot if I needed a clutch 3, but that's a very different conversation. You can't look at Bird's .376 and Price's .402 and say Bird was "unquestionably" better, no matter how much you worship Bird. Or I guess you can, but you'd be inaccurate.
Curry's the best shooter I've ever seen.
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.974 and 72 straight. Don't forget that JWags.
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Given that several contemporaries made 3s at a higher percentage than Bird did -- Mark Price, Dale Ellis and Craig Hodges to name three -- Bird wasn't "unquestionably the best 3-point shooter of his era." I probably would have taken your boy to shoot if I needed a clutch 3, but that's a very different conversation. You can't look at Bird's .376 and Price's .402 and say Bird was "unquestionably" better, no matter how much you worship Bird. Or I guess you can, but you'd be inaccurate.
Curry's the best shooter I've ever seen.
Well you can, and nearly every NBA expert and analysis of the best 3-point shooters (and in general just shooters) puts Bird at the top of his era, and typically in the top 3-5 for all time (that seems pretty unquestionable). They do the for a reason...and it isn't to be inaccurate.
And while I agree with you on Curry, using the stats logic, how can you say that if Seth Curry and Joe Harris have better career averages than him? Quite simply, because a blanket stat like career 3-point percentage doesn't tell the entire picture. Curry is one of a kind.
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Well you can, and nearly every NBA expert and analysis of the best 3-point shooters (and in general just shooters) puts Bird at the top of his era, and typically in the top 3-5 for all time (that seems pretty unquestionable). They do the for a reason...and it isn't to be inaccurate.
And while I agree with you on Curry, using the stats logic, how can you say that if Seth Curry and Joe Harris have better career averages than him? Quite simply, because a blanket stat like career 3-point percentage doesn't tell the entire picture. Curry is one of a kind.
Right, because defense, shot selection, context all aren't necessarily captured in the statistic. But, when literally the only thing that's being asked is: "Who ya got if you get murdered if your choice can't hit a 3?" then all that context is stripped out of the analysis. At that point you actually revert to a pure numerical analysis.
Or. Whatever. It's your fictional life on the line, so if you wanna be a tough guy no nerdy-nerds with their nerdy numbers allowed and go with your gut, by all means. It's a message board, so have at man.
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I suppose I'd go with Curry. I think he hit 77 straight once in a warm-up session. :)
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Is Hauser really a better athlete than Novak?
Nope. At the very least on par, but Steve's footwork and mechanics were so much more efficient than Sam's.
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I think Hauser is a "better athlete" compared to Novak in the sense that he was a more versatile college player taking guys off the dribble and functioning in space. But he's not a better athlete by a wide enough margin or in the ways that matter from an NBA perspective. Sam is not taking a soul off the dribble in the league and he'll be a defensive liability. Sam also gives up two inches to Novak, some lbs (though that could be rectified) and has a slower release. Ultimately Sam's role in the NBA would be to stretch defenses and stand in the corner, same as Novak, and he's worse than Novak on the things that matter for that role.
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I think Hauser is a "better athlete" compared to Novak in the sense that he was a more versatile college player taking guys off the dribble and functioning in space. But he's not a better athlete by a wide enough margin or in the ways that matter from an NBA perspective. Sam is not taking a soul off the dribble in the league and he'll be a defensive liability. Sam also gives up two inches to Novak, some lbs (though that could be rectified) and has a slower release. Ultimately Sam's role in the NBA would be to stretch defenses and stand in the corner, same as Novak, and he's worse than Novak on the things that matter for that role.
Bingo.
It’s what I was trying to say, but you said it way better than I.
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I think Hauser is a "better athlete" compared to Novak in the sense that he was a more versatile college player taking guys off the dribble and functioning in space. But he's not a better athlete by a wide enough margin or in the ways that matter from an NBA perspective. Sam is not taking a soul off the dribble in the league and he'll be a defensive liability. Sam also gives up two inches to Novak, some lbs (though that could be rectified) and has a slower release. Ultimately Sam's role in the NBA would be to stretch defenses and stand in the corner, same as Novak, and he's worse than Novak on the things that matter for that role.
Hauser being a better athlete than Novak will make him slightly less of a defensive liability. It would be difficult to find a worse defender than Novak, who was slow, bolted to the ground and skinny. Hauser always was a good help defender, both at Marquette and Virginia, and that also will serve him well in the NBA.
FWIW, I just saw this on The Athletic, which got anonymous coaches and scouts to rate prospects:
Sam Hauser, Virginia
College head coach 1 (his team played Virginia): Interesting. I don’t know. He can make 3s, he’s got good range, good size, he’ll defend a little bit. I don’t think he’s a three and he’s too small to be a four.
Again, we'll see! In the not-too-distant future, we won't have to debate this -- just as it became unnecessary to debate whether Markus would get an NBA look ... because Markus did. Hauser will or he won't, and we'll know.
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Right, because defense, shot selection, context all aren't necessarily captured in the statistic. But, when literally the only thing that's being asked is: "Who ya got if you get murdered if your choice can't hit a 3?" then all that context is stripped out of the analysis. At that point you actually revert to a pure numerical analysis.
Or. Whatever. It's your fictional life on the line, so if you wanna be a tough guy no nerdy-nerds with their nerdy numbers allowed and go with your gut, by all means. It's a message board, so have at man.
They actually aren't at all. Curry is expected to create his own shot, is defended by 2 sometimes 3 players, who grab and hold him incessantly. He also sometimes has to take 30+ footers and shoots 3x the volume of someone like Joe Harris, who is a spot of 3-pt shooter often taking wide open 3's (or he passes it off).
Joe Harris has a higher 3-point percentage, but any expert is going to tell you that Curry is the better shooter.
The same logic is why experts universally have Bird near the tops all time, these experts break down all the factors, not just a blanket statistic.
I'm not being a "tough guy" or "going with my gut"...I'm going with the experts that analyze this crap inside and out for a living. Because they do know better than a random message board dude.
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They actually aren't at all. Curry is expected to create his own shot, is defended by 2 sometimes 3 players, who grab and hold him incessantly. He also sometimes has to take 30+ footers and shoots 3x the volume of someone like Joe Harris, who is a spot of 3-pt shooter often taking wide open 3's (or he passes it off).
Joe Harris has a higher 3-point percentage, but any expert is going to tell you that Curry is the better shooter.
The same logic is why experts universally have Bird near the tops all time, these experts break down all the factors, not just a blanket statistic.
I'm not being a "tough guy" or "going with my gut"...I'm going with the experts that analyze this crap inside and out for a living. Because they do know better than a random message board dude.
100% correct.
Craig Hodges was a great 3 point shooter (I think he won the 3 point contest 3 times), but almost all were wide open “practice” shots.
Steph, Kyrie, Dame, etc., do it off the dribble with a hand in the face.
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Thoughts on Scottie Barnes? Seems like he has Kawhi/Pippen type ceiling
Plus athlete across the board with great measurables, has a quiet impact on games / doesn't need to ball-dominate to be a major contributor to the win... seems like he has the highest floor but also a crazy high ceiling if he can get his outside shot to fall.
Would be a great fit for a team like Golden State, kinda like Kawhi joining established stars on the spurs then growing into a starring role himself - but probably no chance he falls to 7 right?
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Thoughts on Scottie Barnes? Seems like he has Kawhi/Pippen type ceiling
Plus athlete across the board with great measurables, has a quiet impact on games / doesn't need to ball-dominate to be a major contributor to the win... seems like he has the highest floor but also a crazy high ceiling if he can get his outside shot to fall.
Would be a great fit for a team like Golden State, kinda like Kawhi joining established stars on the spurs then growing into a starring role himself - but probably no chance he falls to 7 right?
Can't shoot 3s, no mid-range shot and not great at taking it to the hoop. Reminds me of Michael Kidd Gilchrist.
I see no comparison to Kawhi. Just my opinion.
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Can't shoot 3s, no mid-range shot and not great at taking it to the hoop. Reminds me of Michael Kidd Gilchrist.
I see no comparison to Kawhi. Just my opinion.
Yeah I could see MKG being his floor, peaking out at a 10 & 7 type guy with good defense & significantly better passing. Another difference between the two is Barnes is more quick than fast, while MKG was more fast than quick. The former translates better to the league. Getting that shot to start falling is obviously the upside piece.
I'm very intrigued by him though, especially if he can find his way onto a winning team that had a bit of rough luck. Mask the deficiencies early.
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Thoughts on Scottie Barnes? Seems like he has Kawhi/Pippen type ceiling
Plus athlete across the board with great measurables, has a quiet impact on games / doesn't need to ball-dominate to be a major contributor to the win... seems like he has the highest floor but also a crazy high ceiling if he can get his outside shot to fall.
Would be a great fit for a team like Golden State, kinda like Kawhi joining established stars on the spurs then growing into a starring role himself - but probably no chance he falls to 7 right?
Barnes has risen up draft boards and his draft range is 4-6.
Pippen is an interesting comparison. Point Forward and an ace defender are roles Barnes projects to play. Barnes is just an ok rebounder, so Pippen has an edge there. Like you said, the key for Barnes will be his jumpshot. Without that, he's more like Ben Simmons.
I don't think he ends up being as good a Pippen, but I can't entirely rule that out either. I think it's more likely that Barnes is a Draymond Green level player, minus the rebounding.
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Yeah I could see MKG being his floor, peaking out at a 10 & 7 type guy with good defense & significantly better passing. Another difference between the two is Barnes is more quick than fast, while MKG was more fast than quick. The former translates better to the league. Getting that shot to start falling is obviously the upside piece.
I'm very intrigued by him though, especially if he can find his way onto a winning team that had a bit of rough luck. Mask the deficiencies early.
I don't disagree with your assessment.
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I don't think he ends up being as good a Pippen, but I can't entirely rule that out either. I think it's more likely that Barnes is a Draymond Green level player, minus the rebounding.
Isn’t Pippen top 50 all time? I think he has a better chance to be a bust than to be Scottie Pippen.
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Thoughts on Scottie Barnes? Seems like he has Kawhi/Pippen type ceiling
Plus athlete across the board with great measurables, has a quiet impact on games / doesn't need to ball-dominate to be a major contributor to the win... seems like he has the highest floor but also a crazy high ceiling if he can get his outside shot to fall.
Would be a great fit for a team like Golden State, kinda like Kawhi joining established stars on the spurs then growing into a starring role himself - but probably no chance he falls to 7 right?
My main thoughts are that this shows why: 1) I am not employed as an evaluator of NBA talent. 2) Why I'm glad I don't have to figure out who to draft.
I trust the people in the war rooms figuring out who fits best, but most of these efforts are trying to project out the ceiling of an unproven player. My guess, is they hope the ceiling is a Pippen-esque player, and the floor is a role player that can come off the bench and provide energy.
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Isn’t Pippen top 50 all time? I think he has a better chance to be a bust than to be Scottie Pippen.
Yes, easily top 50, likely the first half.
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They actually aren't at all. Curry is expected to create his own shot, is defended by 2 sometimes 3 players, who grab and hold him incessantly. He also sometimes has to take 30+ footers and shoots 3x the volume of someone like Joe Harris, who is a spot of 3-pt shooter often taking wide open 3's (or he passes it off).
Superb analysis. There really isn't a spot on the floor within 30 feet that Curry isn't proficient. Whether it be off the bounce or spot shooting.
Joe Harris has a higher 3-point percentage, but any expert is going to tell you that Curry is the better shooter.
The same logic is why experts universally have Bird near the tops all time, these experts break down all the factors, not just a blanket statistic.
I'm not being a "tough guy" or "going with my gut"...I'm going with the experts that analyze this crap inside and out for a living. Because they do know better than a random message board dude.
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Yes, easily top 50, likely the first half.
Pippin didn’t win anything without Jordan. The ultimate coattails guy.
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Pippin didn’t win anything without Jordan. The ultimate coattails guy.
Should that effect his being a top 50 all time player? I haven't put together a list, but I'd be willing to bet, if I did, I'd have more than a few players in the top 50 that haven't won anything.
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Pippin didn’t win anything without Jordan. The ultimate coattails guy.
Jordan didn't win anything without Pippin. The ultimate coattails guy.
See how stupid you sound here?
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Pippin didn’t win anything without Jordan. The ultimate coattails guy.
Nash, Ewing, Iverson, Barkley, Stockton, English, Vince Carter, Paul, Dominique, R Miller and Gervin never won one period. Oscar won 1 but never without Kareem. West won 1, never without Wilt. I could go on and on but you get my drift.
Pippen won 6. The same as Jordan. Neither won without the other, though Pippen came closer without Mike than the other way around. A great, great player.
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Isn’t Pippen top 50 all time? I think he has a better chance to be a bust than to be Scottie Pippen.
Of course. Pippen is a HOF player. Barnes will need exponential growth to reach that level.
There is a much better chance Barnes is a total bust or middle of the road player.
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Jordan didn't win anything without Pippin. The ultimate coattails guy.
See how stupid you sound here?
Sure glad you continue to monitor Muscoop for comment accuracy. 5000+ posts and counting. Do you have a life away from a computer? Are you one of those incels I’ve read about?
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Sure glad you continue to monitor Muscoop for comment accuracy. 5000+ posts and counting. Do you have a life away from a computer? Are you one of those incels I’ve read about?
Oooooo this should be fun. Wonder who this could be. Why did my comment cut so deeply? It wasn't even directed at you. hmmmmmmmm.
Additionally, I'm not even close to the highest post count people around these parts. Pretty weird that you'd call everyone with higher post counts than me incels that have no life. hmmmmmm
What a mystery!
edit: The best part is that 100% of your posts since March directly quote me every time. Pretty weird man, pretty weird.
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The Athletic is out with its "consensus" Big Board -- "ranking the prospects in this draft based on the aggregate of 15 different draft boards":
Marquette: 82, Carton.
Top 5: Cunningham ... Green ... Mobley ... Suggs ... Barnes.
Big East: 7, Bouknight ... 46, Robinson-Earl ... 61, Duke ... 64, Mamukelashvili ... 73, Zegarowski ... 82, Carton.
Others of Interest: 15, Jalen Johnson ... 34, Grimes ... 59, Garza ... 66, Hauser.
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My kids & I are in NYC, all the NBA draft entrants are staying at our hotel. Just shared an elevator with Jalen Johnson.
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CBS Sports has Sam going to da Knicks in da 2nd rd. Just sayin', hey?
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Draft sleepers?? Moses Moody?
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CBS Sports has Sam going to da Knicks in da 2nd rd. Just sayin', hey?
Wouldn’t surprise me one iota.
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Draft sleepers?? Moses Moody?
Not sure how a consensus top 10 pick is a sleeper. Moody has some nice potential but he needs the right situation.
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My kids & I are in NYC, all the NBA draft entrants are staying at our hotel. Just shared an elevator with Jalen Johnson.
Will you be sneaking your way into the draft? Bucks might need a Bobby Portis replacement.
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CBS Sports has Sam going to da Knicks in da 2nd rd. Just sayin', hey?
I'd be surprised. All of heard on NYC sports talk radio since Thibs was hired coach was his defensive approach he drilled into players and all I've heard on Scoop was a major Sam's defensive liability.
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I'd be surprised. All of heard on NYC sports talk radio since Thibs was hired coach was his defensive approach he drilled into players and all I've heard on Scoop was a major Sam's defensive liability.
Imagine the letter that's going to get written to Thibs.
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I'd be surprised. All of heard on NYC sports talk radio since Thibs was hired coach was his defensive approach he drilled into players and all I've heard on Scoop was a major Sam's defensive liability.
Thibs likes smart, hard-working players. Thibs also has enough of an ego (as all coaches and athletes do) to believe he can improve any player's defense.
But sure, it wouldn't surprise me if the Knicks didn't take Hauser ... just as it wouldn't surprise me if they or some other team did. I mean, he's 6-8, an incredible shooter in an era that emphasizes the 3-point shot, intelligent, and not soft like L'il Hausie.
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Just read The Athletic's look at the best big men available, and this jumped out at me about Mamu ...
College head coach 1 (his team played Seton Hall): Mamu, I think he could be the steal of the draft. He’s really skilled. He can really pass, he can shoot it, he’s big as crap, he’s mobile. Now, he’s a little older (22). And I thought their team sucked this year, and I thought they were good because of him. He did everything. He brought it up the floor, he rebounded, he made shots, they isolated him. He’s got the Euro feel, but he’s got the American impact to him. And I think (Seton Hall’s) Kevin (Willard) is a good coach. He can be a steal in the draft. If he can shoot it, there’s no reason why he can’t be a pro that has a sustainable career. I love him. He’s a little like (former Magic and Rockets forward) Ryan Anderson. They’re a little different, but similar. He’s got some of the Troy Murphy in him, taking it back. He can shoot it, he can put it on the deck. He’s big, he’ll break you down a little bit. I thought he was like a chameleon. He could adapt to whatever environment you had. They didn’t have enough horsepower. Early in the year, he was getting 20 and 10. And I thought he just got worn down. They didn’t have a point guard, they didn’t have Myles Powell. They were setting ball screens for him in transition.
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Ahh yes, Mamu is like 2 time BE POY and 2 time 1st team AA Troy Murphy cause they are both tall white guys who can shoot a bit.
Mamu shot 33% from 3 for his career, including this year. Ryan Anderson shot 40% from deep in college in an era where the 3 wasn't yet what it is now.
Mamu probably gets drafted late 2nd and sticks for a bit cause he has NBA tools and size. But I'd be shocked if he becomes a player of an substance. Especially since he's a tool.
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Ahh yes, Mamu is like 2 time BE POY and 2 time 1st team AA Troy Murphy cause they are both tall white guys who can shoot a bit.
Mamu shot 33% from 3 for his career, including this year. Ryan Anderson shot 40% from deep in college in an era where the 3 wasn't yet what it is now.
Mamu probably gets drafted late 2nd and sticks for a bit cause he has NBA tools and size. But I'd be shocked if he becomes a player of an substance. Especially since he's a tool.
While I agree that he seems to be a tool, I like his tools. I think he could turn into a solid NBA player.
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The draft scene at the Westin Times Square is something. I think we’re the only non NBA people in the hotel. I ate a piece of pizza with Moses Moody’s uncle (I’m sure you’re all proud).
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I always liked Mamu as a player. Won't surprise me to see him stick in the NBA for awhile.
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I still cannot understand how Ayo could fall to the Bucks at 31, but I've seen some mocks of him in the second round. That would be the dream pick for the Bucks if you ask me. Sharife Cooper, Miles McBride, Joe Wieskamp, and Josh Christopher would all be good additions at 31.
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I still cannot understand how Ayo could fall to the Bucks at 31, but I've seen some mocks of him in the second round. That would be the dream pick for the Bucks if you ask me. Sharife Cooper, Miles McBride, Joe Wieskamp, and Josh Christopher would all be good additions at 31.
I don't follow the Bucks too closely, though I am happy they won. Where do you see the Bucks' biggest need?
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I don't follow the Bucks too closely, though I am happy they won. Where do you see the Bucks' biggest need?
My thought would be guard depth. I think Donte is going into his last year. Already lost Forbes. They need someone who can defend and hit shots there. Also, a potential Brook replacement if he’s traded.
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I still cannot understand how Ayo could fall to the Bucks at 31, but I've seen some mocks of him in the second round. That would be the dream pick for the Bucks if you ask me. Sharife Cooper, Miles McBride, Joe Wieskamp, and Josh Christopher would all be good additions at 31.
I don't think he will ever be a star - or even close to it - but I would love to see the Bucks get Ayo. Could probably be a rotational player as a rookie. I also love the attitude/hustle that he brings to the floor. Could be a poor man's Jrue Holiday.
Weiskamp, Hyland also are intriguing
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I don't follow the Bucks too closely, though I am happy they won. Where do you see the Bucks' biggest need?
Replace Bobby (backup 5 - rumors are Jeff Green and the Bucks have mutual interest, I think that'd be a great addition) and add a secondary ballhandler off the bench (hoping that's Ayo).
Otherwise can always use more shooting.
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Right, the Bucks will be addressing their needs in FA. They are drafting best available and hoping one of their young guys steps into the rotation this year.
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Right, the Bucks will be addressing their needs in FA. They are drafting best available and hoping one of their young guys steps into the rotation this year.
They will be over the luxury tax, so FA options will be limited, though.
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They will be over the luxury tax, so FA options will be limited, though.
Some vets that want to ring chase might take a pay cut.
I think Nwora is a guy that could step into Forbes' role. Not a good defender but neither was Bryn.
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Bucks might move #31 for a vet. They have 2 trade exceptions worth about $6.5 million combined. Add a player or two for salary filler and they might get in the $8-9 million range.
Not sure what that gets them, but even if they keep the pick I expect the Bucks to prioritize win now players over raw players that have more upside.
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Bucks might move #31 for a vet. They have 2 trade exceptions worth about $6.5 million combined. Add a player or two for salary filler and they might get in the $8-9 million range.
Not sure what that gets them, but even if they keep the pick I expect the Bucks to prioritize win now players over raw players that have more upside.
Yeah, they're rumored to be trying to trade 31 for a vet, but I just don't know what 31 really gets you.
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Yeah, they're rumored to be trying to trade 31 for a vet, but I just don't know what 31 really gets you.
Potentially first round value at a lower cap number. That has to have some value.
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Potentially first round value at a lower cap number. That has to have some value.
Actually I think early second round picks might have more value because of the lack of a guaranteed contract.
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Just had awesome experience. All the lottery picks were making their way through the lobby. You had to be a hotel guest to be there. We met and got pictures with a bunch. Jalen Suggs and Cade Cunningham are really nice guys. It was awesome.
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Just had awesome experience. All the lottery picks were making their way through the lobby. You had to be a hotel guest to be there. We met and got pictures with a bunch. Jalen Suggs and Cade Cunningham are really nice guys. It was awesome.
Thats amazing, something they will always remember. Ive seen plenty to know Suggs is an awesome kid. Cunningham has always kind of had this air of a cocky, aloof persona. Glad to hear its not necessarily the case. The league can always use more stars that have an approachability to them.
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Thats amazing, something they will always remember. Ive seen plenty to know Suggs is an awesome kid. Cunningham has always kind of had this air of a cocky, aloof persona. Glad to hear its not necessarily the case. The league can always use more stars that have an approachability to them.
Cunningham was walking to the players waiting area with like 6 dudes (security/family), I said “Good luck tonight Cade). He saw my kids and said “I’ve only got a second, but let’s get a pic”. He 100% didn’t need to do it, I was extremely happy he did.
Suggs was unbelievably nice. He was walking with just one dude, saw us and high fived my kids, talked to us, said absolutely for a pic, and was all smiles the entire time. Very easy guy to root for, hope he succeeds.
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The draft scene at the Westin Times Square is something. I think we’re the only non NBA people in the hotel. I ate a piece of pizza with Moses Moody’s uncle (I’m sure you’re all proud).
the lobby bar there is pretty solid.
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Cunningham was walking to the players waiting area with like 6 dudes (security/family), I said “Good luck tonight Cade). He saw my kids and said “I’ve only got a second, but let’s get a pic”. He 100% didn’t need to do it, I was extremely happy he did.
Suggs was unbelievably nice. He was walking with just one dude, saw us and high fived my kids, talked to us, said absolutely for a pic, and was all smiles the entire time. Very easy guy to root for, hope he succeeds.
Awesome, truly awesome.
Suggs has that Markus kind of energy that just radiates positivity and appreciation for all he has. Same reason I'm a huge Curtis Granderson fan despite him never playing for one of my teams. Was just disarmingly nice and friendly in a nightclub of all places. I'll never forget meeting and chatting withh him and then about an hour later having someone pat me on the back as I waited in line for the bar as he was leaving and said "pleasure talking to you, good luck with your lady in the red top" and winked as he fist bumped me. Helps you remember they are people too, just insanely talented people.
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Yeah, they're rumored to be trying to trade 31 for a vet, but I just don't know what 31 really gets you.
29 and Jehvon Carter got Landry Shamet.
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Is anyone else surprised with Bouknight likely going in the top 10? I was thinking more like late 1st . After the first four I like Mitchell and Moody. This sure seems like a really deep draft.
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Bucks trade 31 for 54, 60, and 2 future seconds. Not sure I love it. Will really dislike it if Ayo is around at 31.
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Positioned well ta draft Sam, aina?
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Positioned well ta draft Sam, aina?
Or Alex
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Just overheard in the hotel lobby, Kai Jones parents NOT happy that their son got traded from NYK to Charlotte.
Also, if you’re an NBA draftee tonight looking for some action at the Westin, whoa nellie, there is plenty of scantily clad young women waiting. Even my kids were like “OMG, people wear THAT out?!”.
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Bucks would’ve had their choice of Ayo or Butler. I think they’ll regret trading 31 for 4 late 2nd rounders.
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Bucks would’ve had their choice of Ayo or Butler. I think they’ll regret trading 31 for 4 late 2nd rounders.
McBride, Cooper, and Preston were all on the board, too. I really wish the Bucks had held on to 31 and grabbed a backup PG.
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Bucks would’ve had their choice of Ayo or Butler. I think they’ll regret trading 31 for 4 late 2nd rounders.
Yea I had no issue with the trade originally, but it didn't age well with how the picks fell.
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There are very few immediate impact late 1st or 2nd round picks. I don't know if it winds up being the right decision but short-term the Bucks will be fine. They'll have no trouble finding a competent back-up PG.
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Zegarowsk and Mamu both taken late 2nd.
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Zegarowsk and Mamu both taken late 2nd.
I'm absolutely stunned Z was drafted. And Mamu is now my least favorite Buck.
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Only 7 Seniors drafted and none of them were Sam. I think it's better he didn't get drafted but he has an uphill climb.
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Last pick is some Greek guy I never heard of. Not even an Antentakoumpo!
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Last pick is some Greek guy I never heard of. Not even an Antentakoumpo!
It's all good if they open up more Greek restaurants across the USA.
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Sam should have stayed at Marquette
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Zegarowsk and Mamu both taken late 2nd.
I am shocked Z got drafted but I’m excited for his and Jrue’s battles in the ECF.
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It's all good if they open up more Greek restaurants across the USA.
Greek food, is just Turkish food without the flavor!
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The Bucks were never going to go with a rookie as their back-up PG. He's either on the roster (Dante), or some cheap vet they can pay the minimum.
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Greek food, is just Turkish food without the flavor!
Hmmmm.....interesting comment. I would say there are definitely some dishes that spice combinations from the Turks (and let's not forget the Moroccans) extract more flavor but sometimes less is more. Particularly when it comes to certain fish and seafood. The Greeks throw down far more seafood and pork of course. The bottom line is I need some Turkish coffee with that Morrocan cinnamon stuff right now. :)
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Yeah I could see MKG being his floor, peaking out at a 10 & 7 type guy with good defense & significantly better passing. Another difference between the two is Barnes is more quick than fast, while MKG was more fast than quick. The former translates better to the league. Getting that shot to start falling is obviously the upside piece.
I'm very intrigued by him though, especially if he can find his way onto a winning team that had a bit of rough luck. Mask the deficiencies early.
Barnes to Toronto is a very nice spot. Surrounded by shooters, the organization already had Kawhi, and they have developed similar toolsy upside guys Siakam & OG. Will definitely keep my eye on how he develops
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Last pick is some Greek guy I never heard of. Not even an Antentakoumpo!
What's an Antentakoumpo? :o
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I am shocked Z got drafted but I’m excited for his and Jrue’s battles in the ECF.
LOL
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What's an Antentakoumpo? :o
An obvious typo.
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What's an Antentakoumpo? :o
Gesundheit.
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Hmmmm.....interesting comment. I would say there are definitely some dishes that spice combinations from the Turks (and let's not forget the Moroccans) extract more flavor but sometimes less is more. Particularly when it comes to certain fish and seafood. The Greeks throw down far more seafood and pork of course. The bottom line is I need some Turkish coffee with that Morrocan cinnamon stuff right now. :)
All true. My coffee grinder has a setting for ultra fine turkish style, but I haven't given it a shot yet. Maybe this weekend.
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Thibs likes smart, hard-working players. Thibs also has enough of an ego (as all coaches and athletes do) to believe he can improve any player's defense.
But sure, it wouldn't surprise me if the Knicks didn't take Hauser ... just as it wouldn't surprise me if they or some other team did. I mean, he's 6-8, an incredible shooter in an era that emphasizes the 3-point shot, intelligent, and not soft like L'il Hausie.
heard thibs likes blonds that can shoot "bomb shells"... sammy kinda blond, eyn'a?
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Just overheard in the hotel lobby, Kai Jones parents NOT happy that their son got traded from NYK to Charlotte.
Also, if you’re an NBA draftee tonight looking for some action at the Westin, whoa nellie, there is plenty of scantily clad young women waiting. Even my kids were like “OMG, people wear THAT out?!”.
hopefully, none of them cost themselves 50% of their future earnings last night.
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The Athletic is out with their first 2022 mock draft. Of note:
Chet Holmgren at 3 ... Patrick Baldwin at 7 ... Jaime Jaquez at 22 ... Johnny Juzang at 28.
Couple of Big East guys in the "21 more names" section: Julian Champagnie and Kadary Richmond.
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I believe they had DJ Boston in their top 5 last year at this time.
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I believe they had DJ Boston in their top 5 last year at this time.
Yeah ... it's a very, very, very inexact science!
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I believe they had DJ Boston in their top 5 last year at this time.
Wow. I've never heard of DJ Boston. Big miss on their part ;D
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Wow. I've never heard of DJ Boston. Big miss on their part ;D
Obviously I meant BJ Boston.