Poll
Question:
Who you got?
Option 1: Davante Gardner
votes: 161
Option 2: Theo John
votes: 35
I'm curious.
I voted for Option C - BLENDER
Quote from: The Lens on April 19, 2021, 02:49:06 PM
I voted for Option C - BLENDER
Could be ugly if you get Davante's D and Theo's O.
Luke Fischer
Even though it's been thoroughly beaten in the other thread...
If I'm standing in a playground picking my team, and don't know either guy. I'm picking Theo - he looks like a bruiser.
If I know both guys, and I want more offense, I pick Davante. Similar, If I want more D, I pick Theo.
The big question, is if you know Theo is going to be guarding Davante - is Davante still the "offensive" pick? I think I go with Theo because nobody fouls out on the playground.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 19, 2021, 02:53:32 PM
Even though it's been thoroughly beaten in the other thread...
If I'm standing in a playground picking my team, and don't know either guy. I'm picking Theo - he looks like a bruiser.
If I know both guys, and I want more offense, I pick Davante. Similar, If I want more D, I pick Theo.
The big question, is if you know Theo is going to be guarding Davante - is Davante still the "offensive" pick? I think I go with Theo because nobody fouls out on the playground.
If I'm the ball handler I'm going Theo all day. Set some screens, beat people up, and let me chuck. The Wojo offense baby!
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 19, 2021, 02:53:32 PM
Even though it's been thoroughly beaten in the other thread...
If I'm standing in a playground picking my team, and don't know either guy. I'm picking Theo - he looks like a bruiser.
If I know both guys, and I want more offense, I pick Davante. Similar, If I want more D, I pick Theo.
The big question, is if you know Theo is going to be guarding Davante - is Davante still the "offensive" pick? I think I go with Theo because nobody fouls out on the playground.
Your playground comment had me thinking... I loved watching Davante at the Pro-Am, he and Jamil Wilson were built for that environment. Big Sheesh is basically Magic Johnson with a 3 point shot.
Who do I got? In what?
Better player for Marquette? - Davante
Better all around basketball player? - Theo
Who wins in a game of one on one? - Depends, what kind of fouls we calling?
Proxy war of Wojo vs. Buzz? - Davante
Proxy war of being for Theo's statements on BLM or against them? - Theo
Who can bench more? - Theo
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 04:09:02 PM
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
Unless the Yolk is serving weights!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 04:09:02 PM
Who do I got? In what?
Better player for Marquette? - Davante
Better all around basketball player? - Theo
Who wins in a game of one on one? - Depends, what kind of fouls we calling?
Proxy war of Wojo vs. Buzz? - Davante
Proxy war of being for Theo's statements on BLM or against them? - Theo
Who can bench more? - Theo Keefe
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
FIFY. Show some respect. Theo is a twig compared to the almighty.
(https://i.imgflip.com/56c5kf.jpg)
This is about right. 20% will say anything, 20% still think Bush was in on 911 and Obama was born in Kenya.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 04:56:02 PM
This is about right. 20% will say anything, 20% still think Bush was in on 911 and Obama was born in Kenya.
The last two things are true
TAMU
I did not like either one as a basketball player. As for Theo as a person, I have no problem with him speaking his mind. I stated in another thread I never would have recruiting either guy if I were a coach. Devante was one of the issues I had with Buzz as a coach. It is funny because an awful lot of scoopers sure seemed to like/love Devante when he was here. I was not one of those guys.
Lastly, I do like this debate because it refreshed my memory on how much I got pissed at Devante when he was here. It is nice to break open an old wound from time to time.
nm
Quote from: Goose on April 19, 2021, 05:05:18 PM
TAMU
I did not like either one as a basketball player. As for Theo as a person, I have no problem with him speaking his mind. I stated in another thread I never would have recruiting either guy if I were a coach. Devante was one of the issues I had with Buzz as a coach. It is funny because an awful lot of scoopers sure seemed to like/love Devante when he was here. I was not one of those guys.
Lastly, I do like this debate because it refreshed my memory on how much I got pissed at Devante when he was here. It is nice to break open an old wound from time to time.
. We think parallel thought here, Goose.
I was also not a Gardner fan when he was at MU. Best hands I have seen in a post player at MU since I started college in 1984. Black hole on offense and toreador on defense. A one trick pony.
Theo came in as a 6'9 Faisal. He was a little bit better than that. He played hurt. He improved on offense. He fouled less as the years went on. He still frustrated me with his need to go for every block. But I could never question his effort on either end.
And I think he would crush DG one on one. Longer, stronger, would not be easily bodied by the Ox. Enough moves and quickness that Ox would not be able to stop him.
I wish Theo nothing but the best at Duke, just as I am happy Gardner has found a lucrative niche.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 04:09:02 PM
Who do I got? In what?
Better player for Marquette? - Davante
Better all around basketball player? - Theo
Who wins in a game of one on one? - Depends, what kind of fouls we calling?
Proxy war of Wojo vs. Buzz? - Davante
Proxy war of being for Theo's statements on BLM or against them? - Theo
Who can bench more? - Theo
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
Who be chillin' doe? Davante.
Quote from: tower912 on April 19, 2021, 05:48:21 PM
. We think parallel thought here, Goose.
I was also not a Gardner fan when he was at MU. Best hands I have seen in a post player at MU since I started college in 1984. Black hole on offense and toreador on defense. A one trick pony.
Theo came in as a 6'9 Faisal. He was a little bit better than that. He played hurt. He improved on offense. He fouled less as the years went on. He still frustrated me with his need to go for every block. But I could never question his effort on either end.
And I think he would crush DG one on one. Longer, stronger, would not be easily bodied by the Ox. Enough moves and quickness that Ox would not be able to stop him.
I wish Theo nothing but the best at Duke, just as I am happy Gardner has found a lucrative niche.
I always forget that DG was matched up against 6-3 guards that weighed 165.
Don't give no chit, aina?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 04:09:02 PM
Who do I got? In what?
Better player for Marquette? - Davante
Better all around basketball player? - Theo
Who wins in a game of one on one? - Depends, what kind of fouls we calling?
Proxy war of Wojo vs. Buzz? - Davante
Proxy war of being for Theo's statements on BLM or against them? - Theo
Who can bench more? - Theo
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
I'd like to see people's votes compared to these 2 answers. I bet it's a near 1:1 correlation.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 04:09:02 PM
Who do I got? In what?
Better player for Marquette? - Davante
Better all around basketball player? - Theo
Who wins in a game of one on one? - Depends, what kind of fouls we calling?
Proxy war of Wojo vs. Buzz? - Davante
Proxy war of being for Theo's statements on BLM or against them? - Theo
Who can bench more? - Theo
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 04:09:02 PM
Who do I got? In what?
Better player for Marquette? - Davante
Better all around basketball player? - Theo
Who wins in a game of one on one? - Depends, what kind of fouls we calling?
Proxy war of Wojo vs. Buzz? - Davante
Proxy war of being for Theo's statements on BLM or against them? - Theo
Who can bench more? - Theo
Who can put down more Broken Yolk in one sitting? - Davante
Markus Howard vs Derrick Wilson
Who do I got? In what?
Shooting/scoring/offense - Markus
Post season accolades - Markus
Defense - Derrick
Rebounding - Derrick
Team success/leadership - Derrick
Passing - Derrick
Who would win a fight - Derrick
Wow. All this time I thought Markus was WAY better at basketball. But Scoop has taught me "it depends on what you're looking for". Who woulda thunk it?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Markus Howard vs Derrick Wilson
Who do I got? In what?
Shooting/scoring/offense - Markus
Post season accolades - Markus
Defense - Derrick
Rebounding - Derrick
Team success/leadership - Derrick
Passing - Derrick
Who would win a fight - Derrick
Wow. All this time I thought Markus was WAY better at basketball. But Scoop has taught me "it depends on what you're looking for". Who woulda thunk it?
Uhhhh... I think you have some of these wrong.
And just so you know Davante doesn't even care this much about Davante.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Markus Howard vs Derrick Wilson
Who do I got? In what?
Shooting/scoring/offense - Markus
Post season accolades - Markus
Defense - Derrick
Rebounding - Derrick
Team success/leadership - Derrick
Passing - Derrick
Who would win a fight - Derrick
Wow. All this time I thought Markus was WAY better at basketball. But Scoop has taught me "it depends on what you're looking for". Who woulda thunk it?
Actually, Derrick's defense after his soph season when the NCAA outlawed handchecks and body bumping was rather pedestrian. Though, he did well in the back line of Wojo's zone during Wojo's first season.
I'm in the Davante camp and it's not really close for me. The 79% of votes also goes to show that there is often a very vocal minority on scoop because if you only read the messages, you'd think it was 60/40 in favor of Theo. I like these polls. You get actual results from a wider audience. We should do more of these. Most of the vocal people on this board are literally the equivalent of the recruiters on Moneyball. Every once in awhile someone like TAMU chimes in with some worthwhile stats (like Pete) or insider info. And do NOT post something that's already been posted or prepare to be roasted. You MUST scroll through 10 pages of personal fighting in case someone already said it. It's all mostly entertaining though.
Quote from: TheyWereCones on April 19, 2021, 08:55:40 PM
I'm in the Davante camp and it's not really close for me. The 79% of votes also goes to show that there is often a very vocal minority on scoop because if you only read the messages, you'd think it was 60/40 in favor of Theo. I like these polls. You get actual results from a wider audience. We should do more of these. Most of the vocal people on this board are literally the equivalent of the recruiters on Moneyball. Every once in awhile someone like TAMU chimes in with some worthwhile stats (like Pete) or insider info. And do NOT post something that's already been posted or prepare to be roasted. You MUST scroll through 10 pages of personal fighting in case someone already said it. It's all mostly entertaining though.
+1
Don't trust the mainstream posters. Do your own research sheeple.
Yeah, Davante was simply overused as a senior due to the ridiculous guard combo of Derrick and Jake and the self serving contributions by Mayo. Davante's first three seasons are far more indicative of his worth.Theo was a true warrior, but he made some rather mind numbing mistakes game after game. I vote for Avante even if he had no D.
Who would have had the better career if you flip flop the team/years they were at MU?
Theo earlier with Buzz and his squad.
Davante later with Wojo and his squad.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 19, 2021, 08:58:06 PM
+1
Don't trust the mainstream posters. Do your own research sheeple.
I get my research from the posts my uncle shares on Facebook
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Markus Howard vs Derrick Wilson
Who do I got? In what?
Shooting/scoring/offense - Markus
Post season accolades - Markus
Defense - Derrick
Rebounding - Derrick
Team success/leadership - Derrick
Passing - Derrick
Who would win a fight - Derrick
Wow. All this time I thought Markus was WAY better at basketball. But Scoop has taught me "it depends on what you're looking for". Who woulda thunk it?
Lenny, I was having fun with the OP since he didn't give any parameters, just said "Who you got?" I mean there were more joke categories than real categories c'mon
The same guys who think it's despicable to point out all time great coaches like Jay Wright sometimes take time to turn into those all time great coaches are now comparing Derrick Wilson and Markus Howard.
Hilarious.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 19, 2021, 10:53:59 PM
Lenny, I was having fun with the OP since he didn't give any parameters, just said "Who you got?" I mean there were more joke categories than real categories c'mon
TAMU
If "Better all around basketball player" - "Theo" was meant as a joke I apologize.
The point of my obviously tongue in cheek response (sorry it went over your head, BLM) was how simplistic some of our posters were being. Saying one guy (Davante or. Markus) was better on offense and one guy was better on defense (Theo or Derrick) is true. Drawing the conclusion from this "fact" that Theo is Davante's equal or better or that Derrick vs Markus is even worthy of discussion is ridiculous.
The poll numbers appear to bear this out.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Markus Howard vs Derrick Wilson
Who do I got? In what?
Shooting/scoring/offense - Markus
Post season accolades - Markus
Defense - Derrick
Rebounding - Derrick
Team success/leadership - Derrick
Passing - Derrick
Who would win a fight - Derrick
Wow. All this time I thought Markus was WAY better at basketball. But Scoop has taught me "it depends on what you're looking for". Who woulda thunk it?
Yes, but who had the better Adjusted Tempo during January games played at night?
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 19, 2021, 09:26:23 PM
Who would have had the better career if you flip flop the team/years they were at MU?
Theo earlier with Buzz and his squad.
Davante later with Wojo and his squad.
This is a helluva question.
Imagine some of those small-ish Buzz teams with an enforcer inside like Theo. What if Lazar and later Jae didn't have to play center? That defense would have been incredible. Wow.
Then imagine some of the Wojo era teams, especially the Markus Howard years, with a guy like Davante inside. The ability to pick-and-roll and the space created inside due to Markus' shooting would have allowed Davante to feast. Again, wow.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 07:17:29 AM
TAMU
If "Better all around basketball player" - "Theo" was meant as a joke I apologize.
Nope, it was one of the three serious responses. I believe that if they had the same coaching and same teammates around them, Theo would have been considered the better player.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 07:17:29 AM
The point of my obviously tongue in cheek response (sorry it went over your head, BLM) was how simplistic some of our posters were being. Saying one guy (Davante or. Markus) was better on offense and one guy was better on defense (Theo or Derrick) is true. Drawing the conclusion from this "fact" that Theo is Davante's equal or better or that Derrick vs Markus is even worthy of discussion is ridiculous.
Trying to say a Theo/Davante comparison is equal or similar to a Markus/Derrick comparison is the only ridiculous thing I see here. Theo/Davante were both average players (I voted for Davante btw). Derrick was arguably the worst PG to start for Marquette in decades and Markus may have his number hanging in the rafters one day.
Davante was much better on offense than Theo. Theo was much better on defense than Davante. Personally, I think the gap between their offenses is greater than the gap between their defenses so I voted for Davante. Others may see it differently. Personally, I think they're close enough that people can have differing opinions on the matter. You clearly don't.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 20, 2021, 07:44:16 AM
Nope, it was one of the three serious responses. I believe that if they had the same coaching and same teammates around them, Theo would have been considered the better player.
Trying to say a Theo/Davante comparison is equal or similar to a Markus/Derrick comparison is the only ridiculous thing I see here. Theo/Davante were both average players
Reading is a skill. I clearly state that the Markus/Derrick comp isn't even worthy of discussion. I merely used it to show how absurd the "one guy's better on offense, one guy's better on defense" argument can be.
Davante was Big East 6th man of the year twice. He made the NCAA all regional team. He was second team All Big East and he made second team All Big East with Derrick and Jake Thomas as his guards. His senior year he was named Marquette's MVP by his coaches. Unless/until you can find me another Marquette players with this kind of resume' who is "average" and a worse all around basketball player than Theo John I don't think your opinion on this survives scrutiny.
.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 08:34:45 AM
Reading is a skill. I clearly state that the Markus/Derrick comp isn't even worthy of discussion. I merely used it to show how absurd the "one guy's better on offense, one guy's better on defense" argument can be.
Davante was Big East 6th man of the year twice. He made the NCAA all regional team. He was second team All Big East and he made second team All Big East with Derrick and Jake Thomas as his guards. His senior year he was named Marquette's MVP by his coaches. Unless/until you can find me another Marquette players with this kind of resume' who is "average" and a worse all around basketball player than Theo John I don't think your opinion on this survives scrutiny.
You're not changing anyone's mind at this point, no matter how many different ways you re-write this post.
Davante every day and twice on game day.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 08:34:45 AM
He was second team All Big East and he made second team All Big East with Derrick and Jake Thomas as his guards.
You keep saying that, but also keep leaving out that the team was predicted to win the Big East. That the team had three future NBA players (Wilson, Juan Anderson, Burton). Also had Duane Wilson and JuJuan Anderson.
A better question is, why were they so bad.
Quote from: forgetful on April 20, 2021, 08:48:49 AM
You keep saying that, but also keep leaving out that the team was predicted to win the Big East. That the team had three future NBA players (Wilson, Juan Anderson, Burton). Also had Duane Wilson and JuJuan Anderson.
A better question is, why were they so bad.
Because, as Lenny has told us, the Big East was so much better and had so many more teams than the current Big East does (ignore the fact that it's the same Big East, except now UCONN is in the Big East when it wasn't that season).
Quote from: forgetful on April 20, 2021, 08:48:49 AM
You keep saying that, but also keep leaving out that the team was predicted to win the Big East. That the team had three future NBA players (Wilson, Juan Anderson, Burton). Also had Duane Wilson and JuJuan Anderson.
A better question is, why were they so bad.
...
Quote from: forgetful on April 20, 2021, 08:48:49 AM
You keep saying that, but also keep leaving out that the team was predicted to win the Big East. That the team had three future NBA players (Wilson, Juan Anderson, Burton). Also had Duane Wilson and JuJuan Anderson.
A better question is, why were they so bad.
Duane was injured so they didn't have him. JJJ was vastly over ranked
Quote from: BLM on April 20, 2021, 09:11:27 AM
Because, as Lenny has told us, the Big East was so much better and had so many more teams than the current Big East does (ignore the fact that it's the same Big East, except now UCONN is in the Big East when it wasn't that season).
One was coached by Buzz. The other by Wojo. Therefore every player on the Buzz coached team is automatically better.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 20, 2021, 09:21:13 AM
JJJ was vastly over ranked
If I remember correctly (and I might not), Buzz REALLY talked up JJJ that preseason, which was one of the things that led to heightened expectations.
That team was not overhyped. Buzz warned in October about the lack of senior leadership.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 08:34:45 AM
Reading is a skill. I clearly state that the Markus/Derrick comp isn't even worthy of discussion. I merely used it to show how absurd the "one guy's better on offense, one guy's better on defense" argument can be.
That's fair.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 08:34:45 AM
Davante was Big East 6th man of the year twice. He made the NCAA all regional team. He was second team All Big East and he made second team All Big East with Derrick and Jake Thomas as his guards. His senior year he was named Marquette's MVP by his coaches. Unless/until you can find me another Marquette players with this kind of resume' who is "average" and a worse all around basketball player than Theo John I don't think your opinion on this survives scrutiny.
So your argument is that if a player has more awards, he must be better than the player with less awards? So you must think that Markus Howard is one of the two greatest players to ever play for Marquette. After all he and Butch are the only two 2-time All Americans in Marquette history.
Davante benefited from having Buzz as a coach. Theo suffered from having Wojo as a coach. Put them both under Buzz or both under Wojo and I think Theo would have come out on top. Unprovable either way but that's my opinion. You are free to disagree with it. Based on what they actually accomplished, Davante is better, that's why I picked Davante.
Quote from: BLM on April 20, 2021, 09:11:27 AM
Because, as Lenny has told us, the Big East was so much better and had so many more teams than the current Big East does (ignore the fact that it's the same Big East, except now UCONN is in the Big East when it wasn't that season).
The Big East that Gardner played in was only a much better conference than the one that Theo played in 3 of his 4 years at Marquette.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 20, 2021, 09:46:24 AM
That's fair.
So your argument is that if a player has more awards, he must be better than the player with less awards? So you must think that Markus Howard is one of the two greatest players to ever play for Marquette. After all he and Butch are the only two 2-time All Americans in Marquette history.
Fair point. But one difference. Davante had a bunch of awards. Theo had none and wasn't close to having one.
Davante had a slew of team accomplishments. Theo had none.
Comparing players who both have a long list of awards/accomplishments is different imo.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 09:48:27 AM
The Big East that Gardner played in was only a much better conference than the one that Theo played in 3 of his 4 years at Marquette.
Not the one you reference as his Second Team All Big East season. But that doesn't fit your agenda.
Quote from: MU82 on April 20, 2021, 09:34:11 AM
If I remember correctly (and I might not), Buzz REALLY talked up JJJ that preseason, which was one of the things that led to heightened expectations.
Agreed. But it was not just Buzz, I mean JJJ was ranked higher than Dawson or Vander. Everybody had expectations of an immediate impact player, certainly one more impactful than he ended up being.
Quote from: tower912 on April 20, 2021, 09:39:53 AM
That team was not overhyped. Buzz warned in October about the lack of senior leadership.
Wasn't Buzz talking down his team just a sign fall was beginning? Feels like that was an annual occurrence.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 20, 2021, 10:09:03 AM
Agreed. But it was not just Buzz, I mean JJJ was ranked higher than Dawson or Vander. Everybody had expectations of an immediate impact player, certainly one more impactful than he ended up being.
Understood. But I'm not talking about ratings. I'm talking about the coach - and one who routinely talked down his team in preseason (as others pointed out). Buzz was saying get ready to watch this kid play.
Again, unless I'm confusing JJJ with someone else.
Quote from: BLM on April 20, 2021, 10:06:08 AM
Not the one you reference as his Second Team All Big East season. But that doesn't fit your agenda.
Lol.
DG was better than TJ was in their freshman season. Against tougher competition.
DG was better than TJ was in their sophomore season. Against tougher competition.
DG was better than TJ in their junior season. Against tougher competition.
DG was better than TJ in their senior season. Against the same competition minus UCONN.
No agenda, none ever intended, just you nitpicking to muddy the waters.
both were just solid role players, although very different skillsets. kind of a lame answer, but who id choose totally depends on what the rest of the team looks like.
Quote from: MU82 on April 20, 2021, 10:26:21 AM
Understood. But I'm not talking about ratings. I'm talking about the coach - and one who routinely talked down his team in preseason (as others pointed out). Buzz was saying get ready to watch this kid play.
Again, unless I'm confusing JJJ with someone else.
My recollection is the same as yours. Buzz was unusually excited about JJJ. Unfortunately, JaJuan struggled in games (where less freelance and more discipline were required).
Quote from: JTJ3 on April 20, 2021, 10:43:23 AM
both were just solid role players, although very different skillsets. kind of a lame answer, but who id choose totally depends on what the rest of the team looks like.
DG averaged about 12 and 5 as a JR and 15 and 6 as a SR. Those aren't really role player numbers.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 20, 2021, 11:25:45 AM
DG averaged about 12 and 5 as a JR and 15 and 6 as a SR. Those aren't really role player numbers.
Role player Sam Hauser's career averages at Marquette? 12.7 and 6.0.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 11:58:38 AM
Role player Sam Hauser's career averages at Marquette? 12.7 and 6.0.
I never saw Sam Hauser eurostep. Point - Big Sheesh
Of the top 100 players in MU history, I would rank Davante somewhere in the 60-70 range, in roughly the same neighborhood as Oliver Lee. Theo would be Honorable Mention , alongside Artie Green.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 20, 2021, 11:58:38 AM
Role player Sam Hauser's career averages at Marquette? 12.7 and 6.0.
Their ability to defend was similar too.
Who've I got? Are we playing North Carolina? That'd be tough. Davante abused NC inside (as a freshman?)
Theo looked pretty good against them in February.