MUScoop

To me this season has been the most disappointing. No excuse for Wojo not being able to put together the roster he wants, being too young, etc. Beyond that, I really thought, for the first time in his tenure, all the "pieces" were there. And I think that view was validated by a few of the quality wins we had this year. The talent was there. The coaching was not.

You should have one more:
All of the above

Quote from: 1SE on March 08, 2021, 03:33:50 AM
To me this season has been the most disappointing. No excuse for Wojo not being able to put together the roster he wants, being too young, etc. Beyond that, I really thought, for the first time in his tenure, all the "pieces" were there. And I think that view was validated by a few of the quality wins we had this year. The talent was there. The coaching was not.

Agree 100%. Wojo's a nice guy, but he isn't a very good coach. The proof is in in the lack of player development. He does not coach them up. Too often his recruits cannot compete. As a game coach he doesn't know how to control the tempo like Al did and other great coaches.

Congrats. You almost made it 3 days without one of these threads. I hope you put your free time to good use. Maybe volunteer at the local children's hospital. Pick up trash along the highways. Work towards world peace. You know something constructive instead of your borderline psychotic obsession.

Quote from: dad's couch on March 08, 2021, 06:40:09 AM
Congrats. You almost made it 3 days without one of these threads. I hope you put your free time to good use. Maybe volunteer at the local children's hospital. Pick up trash along the highways. Work towards world peace. You know something constructive instead of your borderline psychotic obsession.

So I guess this means you're not gonna participate in the poll.

It's 18-19 and it isn't close.

Joey Hauser also died.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/1036ffad693986bcc2d1fa8cd2cae382/tenor.gif)

Quote from: dad's couch on March 08, 2021, 06:40:09 AM
Congrats. You almost made it 3 days without one of these threads. I hope you put your free time to good use. Maybe volunteer at the local children's hospital. Pick up trash along the highways. Work towards world peace. You know something constructive instead of your borderline psychotic obsession.

harsh

Where are the true Nojo options?

'1975-1976 - the season he was conceived and born'
'1980-1981 - the season he first picked up a basketball'
'1993-1994 - the season Coach K recruited him and set him on the path to be our coach'

The angry mob needs to be satisfied!

It was difficult to choose only one year because from the 18'-19' collapse to the present are, in my opinion, connected. Going from Wojo being "completely surprised " by the Hausers leaving (and allegedly other players about to leave), 19'-20' having the #1 scorer in the country yet finishing 8-10 in conference, and all 3 seasons (starting with 18'-19') featuring a 1-6 losing streak, "disappointing" is a kind way of putting it. I voted for this season because it is the culmination of the post Hauser period. Pointedly, it was Wojo's chance to prove that he was more than a recruiter, that he could actually succeed with good players but without Markus and Hauser grade players. He failed to do that.

Now I am going to pick up trash along the road near my house and volunteer somewhere, having been chastised by sanctimonious dad. 

Quote from: willie warrior on March 08, 2021, 04:42:36 AM
You should have one more:
All of the above

Solid, dat's watt happens wen a chitty coach combines beeloe average recruitin', hey?

Yeah I voted this year.

Henry's year is upsetting just because we could've played slightly better crappy teams and made a postseason. It was just a BS foul on Billy Garrett that kept us out of 3rd and playing Belmont at the wrong time.

The 17-18 team was up there because that team could have made a fun run with their shooting. But of course we depauled ourselves again.

As disappointing as 18-19 was its hard to ignore the idea that we were already playing above our heads and came down to earth. I just wish earth was at least one game higher.

19-20 was about what I expected and again seemed to me like we were playing way above our pay grade. I feel like everybody saw a collapse coming.

This year though the bright spots are just three games. Two of which the teams aren't exactly as bright as looked preseason. It's awful basketball to watch. In a year I expected Wojo to return to 2017's no true ball hero and win by committee, instead we just look bad.

2017-2018

Terrible miss of the tournament and the bizarre excitement about the NIT was highly concerning.

Yes.  We should not have been cheering on Marquette in the NIT.  We should have picketed the games and broke the windows at the Al.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 08, 2021, 09:18:31 AM
Yes.  We should not have been cheering on Marquette in the NIT.  We should have picketed the games and broke the windows at the Al.

We had, without exaggeration, three of the best 3pt shooters in the country that season, two of whom had unlimited range.  If there's one thing I've learned from Scoop, it's that you need 68 teams for a 68 team tournament, and with those three guys on the roster, we couldn't even make a field of 68?  Yeah, I get that we were playing 3 on 5 on defense, but still, we should've at least made the Tournament.  That was an epic choke job, and yet so many on here simply pooh-poohed it, because...we lost JJJ and Fischer from the previous year, I guess?  The fact that we only went to the NIT that year should've been a big red flag.

This year is the same type of deal.  I didn't expect us to make a Final Four run, but there was enough talent on the roster to make a field of 68, and finish in the top half of the conference.  Not finish 9th and make no postseason at all, barring a miracle run in the BET.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 08, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
We had, without exaggeration, three of the best 3pt shooters in the country that season, two of whom had unlimited range.  If there's one thing I've learned from Scoop, it's that you need 68 teams for a 68 team tournament, and with those three guys on the roster, we couldn't even make a field of 68?  Yeah, I get that we were playing 3 on 5 on defense, but still, we should've at least made the Tournament.  That was an epic choke job, and yet so many on here simply pooh-poohed it, because...we lost JJJ and Fischer from the previous year, I guess?  The fact that we only went to the NIT that year should've been a big red flag.

This year is the same type of deal.  I didn't expect us to make a Final Four run, but there was enough talent on the roster to make a field of 68, and finish in the top half of the conference.  Not finish 9th and make no postseason at all, barring a miracle run in the BET.

For the record had they been using NET (or just not lost @Depaul) they'd have been in. But RPI gave Providence the advantage.

I am not saying we shouldn't have been disappointed in only making the NIT.  But they may as well try to win it while they are there.  And yes, it was a fun little run.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 08, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
We had, without exaggeration, three of the best 3pt shooters in the country that season, two of whom had unlimited range.  If there's one thing I've learned from Scoop, it's that you need 68 teams for a 68 team tournament, and with those three guys on the roster, we couldn't even make a field of 68?  Yeah, I get that we were playing 3 on 5 on defense, but still, we should've at least made the Tournament.  That was an epic choke job, and yet so many on here simply pooh-poohed it, because...we lost JJJ and Fischer from the previous year, I guess?  The fact that we only went to the NIT that year should've been a big red flag.

This year is the same type of deal.  I didn't expect us to make a Final Four run, but there was enough talent on the roster to make a field of 68, and finish in the top half of the conference.  Not finish 9th and make no postseason at all, barring a miracle run in the BET.

A 10 seed NCAA Tournament team lost 4 of their top 5 guys in minutes per game, plus the 8th and 9th highest minutes per game guys (both over 15 mpg), replaced them with three 3 star recruits, and it was an "epic choke job" to wind up in the NIT?

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 08, 2021, 09:18:31 AM
Yes.  We should not have been cheering on Marquette in the NIT.  We should have picketed the games and broke the windows at the Al.

Well, it took someone a very long time after the end of the season to let off steam but somebody did drive a car through the doors of the Al and onto the court in November of '18.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 08, 2021, 09:56:09 AM
Well, it took someone a very long time after the end of the season to let off steam but somebody did drive a car through the doors of the Al and onto the court in November of '18.

The video of that was incredible.

The fact that there are so many legitimate options tells you all you need to know about our coach abs the state of our basketball program.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 08, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
We had, without exaggeration, three of the best 3pt shooters in the country that season, two of whom had unlimited range.  If there's one thing I've learned from Scoop, it's that you need 68 teams for a 68 team tournament, and with those three guys on the roster, we couldn't even make a field of 68?  Yeah, I get that we were playing 3 on 5 on defense, but still, we should've at least made the Tournament.  That was an epic choke job, and yet so many on here simply pooh-poohed it, because...we lost JJJ and Fischer from the previous year, I guess?  The fact that we only went to the NIT that year should've been a big red flag.

This year is the same type of deal.  I didn't expect us to make a Final Four run, but there was enough talent on the roster to make a field of 68, and finish in the top half of the conference.  Not finish 9th and make no postseason at all, barring a miracle run in the BET.

If I remember that year correctly, it took Wojo way too long to play Rowsey and Howard together. The defense took a hit, but the offensive increase outweighed that.

If the tournament took the best 68 teams, that team would have made it. What you conveniently left out is there are 32 auto-bids, which at least 20 aren't getting in any other way. Really, we needed to be a top 45 team, which we were close, but losing to DePaul and the computer numbers hurt.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 08, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
We had, without exaggeration, three of the best 3pt shooters in the country that season, two of whom had unlimited range.  If there's one thing I've learned from Scoop, it's that you need 68 teams for a 68 team tournament, and with those three guys on the roster, we couldn't even make a field of 68?  Yeah, I get that we were playing 3 on 5 on defense, but still, we should've at least made the Tournament.  That was an epic choke job, and yet so many on here simply pooh-poohed it, because...we lost JJJ and Fischer from the previous year, I guess?  The fact that we only went to the NIT that year should've been a big red flag.

This year is the same type of deal.  I didn't expect us to make a Final Four run, but there was enough talent on the roster to make a field of 68, and finish in the top half of the conference.  Not finish 9th and make no postseason at all, barring a miracle run in the BET.

We lost JJJ, Fischer, and Reinhardt to graduation in addition to Duane, Haanif, and Carter to transfer. That's a lot to replace and we replaced them with a bunch of sub - 150 freshmen. Preseason KenPom  picked us 49th, we finished 53rd. NIT that season really wasn't unexpected.

Quote from: Farley36 on March 08, 2021, 10:02:05 AM
The fact that there are so many legitimate options tells you all you need to know about our coach abs the state of our basketball program.

Wojo's not as fit as he was as a player, so I don't know that I'd call him Coach Abs.

Quote from: cheebs09 on March 08, 2021, 10:18:03 AM
If I remember that year correctly, it took Wojo way too long to play Rowsey and Howard together. The defense took a hit, but the offensive increase outweighed that.

That was the year before. The NIT year they played together from Day 1. There were 5 games where they didn't both start (2 where Rowdy didn't start, 3 where Howard didn't start). But other than the game where Howard was hurt (St. John's) the person who didn't start got 30+ minutes in 3 of the games and 25 minutes in the fourth game (opener against Mt. St. Marys)

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 08, 2021, 10:29:30 AM
That was the year before. The NIT year they played together from Day 1. There were 5 games where they didn't both start (2 where Rowdy didn't start, 3 where Howard didn't start). But other than the game where Howard was hurt (St. John's) the person who didn't start got 30+ minutes in 3 of the games and 25 minutes in the fourth game (opener against Mt. St. Marys)

Thanks for the correction. Well, that changes my view somewhat.

As stated above, the 2018-2019 team was playing above their head. The computer numbers indicated that team wasn't at their ranking.

This year, when Carton was eligible, I thought we'd at a minimum be Team Bubble Watch. Seeing the Big East down so much this year, I think it makes it even more disappointing.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 08, 2021, 09:18:31 AM
Yes.  We should not have been cheering on Marquette in the NIT.  We should have picketed the games and broke the windows at the Al.

No you should just not have cared.  NIT is meaningless.

All five....   sad he has such a plethora of disappointing seasons in only 7 years...

Quote from: Farley36 on March 08, 2021, 10:50:17 AM
No you should just not have cared.  NIT is meaningless.

I went to the games at the AL that post season and had a good time knowing the games didn't mean much. Looking ahead, I could see the potential of the young team on the court and what we could accomplish in future seasons.

If we were to make the NIT this season (LOL zero shot) I wouldn't care. The program at this point is a rudderless ship. Talented players come in, but Wojo teams are incapable of playing remotely close to above their expectations. Rinse repeat. Talent doesn't matter when opposing coaches can so easily scheme our top players out of games. 

Biggest disappointment is this season without a doubt. Fell way below expectations playing very poor basketball. No end in sight.

Quote from: cheebs09 on March 08, 2021, 10:39:57 AM
Thanks for the correction. Well, that changes my view somewhat.

As stated above, the 2018-2019 team was playing above their head. The computer numbers indicated that team wasn't at their ranking.

This year, when Carton was eligible, I thought we'd at a minimum be Team Bubble Watch. Seeing the Big East down so much this year, I think it makes it even more disappointing.

Yep, this season was ripe for the pickin'. We simply had to win at least 2-3 of the close BEast games we lost, especially DePaul. Just win that one and the OT game vs Providence, and we're 10-9 in the conference (tied for 4th), 15-11 overall, with three great wins. If not a lock for the NCAAs, maybe just 1-2 BET wins away.

But we didn't. So we're left what-iffing, as fans of mediocre teams often are.

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
Yep, this season was ripe for the pickin'. We simply had to win at least 2-3 of the close BEast games we lost, especially DePaul. Just win that one and the OT game vs Providence, and we're 10-9 in the conference (tied for 4th), 15-11 overall, with three great wins. If not a lock for the NCAAs, maybe just 1-2 BET wins away.

But we didn't. So we're left what-iffing, as fans of mediocre teams often are.

That's sort of the crux of the issue. Wojo's teams are seemingly always "what if's" and can't win the close games that matter.

Quote from: panda on March 08, 2021, 11:00:47 AM
I went to the games at the AL that post season and had a good time knowing the games didn't mean much. Looking ahead, I could see the potential of the young team on the court and what we could accomplish in future seasons.

If we were to make the NIT this season (LOL zero shot) I wouldn't care. The program at this point is a rudderless ship. Talented players come in, but Wojo teams are incapable of playing remotely close to above their expectations. Rinse repeat. Talent doesn't matter when opposing coaches can so easily scheme our top players out of games. 

Biggest disappointment is this season without a doubt. Fell way below expectations playing very poor basketball. No end in sight.

You can't see potential in a team with sophomores Garcia and Lewis, junior Carton, senior Elliott and freshmen Mitchell and Aidoo? Really? Not even "potential"?

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
Yep, this season was ripe for the pickin'. We simply had to win at least 2-3 of the close BEast games we lost, especially DePaul. Just win that one and the OT game vs Providence, and we're 10-9 in the conference (tied for 4th), 15-11 overall, with three great wins. If not a lock for the NCAAs, maybe just 1-2 BET wins away.

But we didn't. So we're left what-iffing, as fans of mediocre teams often are.

That hit me right in the 'fan of the Vikings' spot

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 11:16:22 AM
You can't see potential in a team with sophomores Garcia and Lewis, junior Carton, senior Elliott and freshmen Mitchell and Aidoo? Really? Not even "potential"?

I could look back and see posts before the last seven seasons and see the exact same query.

Bottom line - The talent has always been there. That's the least of my concerns.

To answer your question, yes there's talent. Who's going to play any defense?

Quote from: Farley36 on March 08, 2021, 10:50:17 AM
No you should just not have cared.  NIT is meaningless.

It's all meaningless really.  I will find joy in whatever I want.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 08, 2021, 11:42:09 AM
It's all meaningless really.  I will find joy in whatever I want.

The nihilist college basketball perspective.

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 11:16:22 AM
You can't see potential in a team with sophomores Garcia and Lewis, junior Carton, senior Elliott and freshmen Mitchell and Aidoo? Really? Not even "potential"?

I for one don't. Last summer I predicted .500 this season. As it stands today, I don't think Wojo can coach well enough to get us past .500 next year, and that is with Wojo packing the non-con with cupcakes. If we have player defections I could see us in a dog fight with DePaul for last place next year.

I take no joy in being right about this season nor my outlook for next year.

Wojo is a dead man walking. He is in the last 13 months,or less, of his tenure. As others have predicted, I could see him back next year with no job security and he and the team mailing it in. What makes this sting even more is the fact that he and his players are class acts.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 08, 2021, 11:44:17 AM
I for one don't. Last summer I predicted .500 this season. As it stands today, I don't think Wojo can coach well enough to get us past .500 next year, and that is with Wojo packing the non-con with cupcakes. If we have player defections I could see us in a dog fight with DePaul for last place next year.

I take no joy in being right about this season nor my outlook for next year.

Wojo is a dead man walking. He is in the last 13 months,or less, of his tenure. As others have predicted, I could see him back next year with no job security and he and the team mailing it in. What makes this sting even more is the fact that he and his players are class acts.

I don't think he or the team will mail it in. They're competitors and will try. Everything else I agree with.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 08, 2021, 11:44:17 AM
I for one don't. Last summer I predicted .500 this season. As it stands today, I don't think Wojo can coach well enough to get us past .500 next year, and that is with Wojo packing the non-con with cupcakes. If we have player defections I could see us in a dog fight with DePaul for last place next year.

I take no joy in being right about this season nor my outlook for next year.

Wojo is a dead man walking. He is in the last 13 months,or less, of his tenure. As others have predicted, I could see him back next year with no job security and he and the team mailing it in. What makes this sting even more is the fact that he and his players are class acts.

Or the opposite happens. He knows he is coaching for job and makes some changes off-season to put him in position to save himself.

Then, you have players who have strong loyalty to him (supposedly many love him but who knows if that's true) who take it up another notch to save their beloved coach's job.

Preseason KPom 36, currently 74. That's at 49% which is an F.  Wojo needs a good final exam here for a passing grade. MU has some burn left.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 08, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
Preseason KPom 36, currently 74. That's at 49% which is an F.  Wojo needs a good final exam here for a passing grade. MU has some burn left.

We were preseason 36?!

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 08, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
Preseason KPom 36, currently 74. That's at 49% which is an F.  Wojo needs a good final exam here for a passing grade. MU has some burn left.

I believe this will mark the sixth time in seven seasons that he has underperformed his preseason KenPom number.  The only time he outperformed it, and it wasn't by much was 2017-18.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 08, 2021, 11:44:17 AM
I for one don't. Last summer I predicted .500 this season. As it stands today, I don't think Wojo can coach well enough to get us past .500 next year, and that is with Wojo packing the non-con with cupcakes. If we have player defections I could see us in a dog fight with DePaul for last place next year.

I take no joy in being right about this season nor my outlook for next year.

Wojo is a dead man walking. He is in the last 13 months,or less, of his tenure. As others have predicted, I could see him back next year with no job security and he and the team mailing it in. What makes this sting even more is the fact that he and his players are class acts.

Again, I think Wojo should be gone. However ...

He has coached us to .500 in this disaster of a season, and well over .500 in every season but his first. Three NCAA bids, too. I'm not saying all that is great. AGAIN, I'd have fired him, on the spot, 6 weeks ago. But to say that there is absolutely no way a team with DJ, Garcia, Lewis, Elliott, Mitchell, Aidoo and a couple transfers can't be a .500 team ... because Wojo ... that's just silly.

As for everybody "mailing it in," that's even sillier. That would benefit nobody, and certainly not Wojo, who presumably would like to get another job someday.

And I wasn't talking about defections. I was saying that the 6 players I mentioned will all be on the team. I say there would be potential, even with Wojo as coach. Obviously, if there are defections, that's another story.

But hey, if you want to spend the next 8 months before next season even starts thinking we'll go 0-31, that's cool too. Hopelessness and joylessness sounds like fun!

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 11:57:20 AM
Again, I think Wojo should be gone. However ...

He has coached us to .500 in this disaster of a season, and well over .500 in every season but his first. Three NCAA bids, too. I'm not saying all that is great. AGAIN, I'd have fired him, on the spot, 6 weeks ago. But to say that there is absolutely no way a team with DJ, Garcia, Lewis, Elliott, Mitchell, Aidoo and a couple transfers can't be a .500 team ... because Wojo ... that's just silly.

As for everybody "mailing it in," that's even sillier. That would benefit nobody, and certainly not Wojo, who presumably would like to get another job someday.

And I wasn't talking about defections. I was saying that the 6 players I mentioned will all be on the team. I say there would be potential, even with Wojo as coach. Obviously, if there are defections, that's another story.

But hey, if you want to spend the next 8 months before next season even starts thinking we'll go 0-31, that's cool too. Hopelessness and joylessness sounds like fun!

I for one did not predict 0-31. I feel like .500 is the ceiling. Maybe 'mailing it in' was too strong but a general feeing of apathy surrounding the program next year.

Like everyone else here, this is just my opinion. As always, I'll hope for the best.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 08, 2021, 12:07:22 PM
I for one did not predict 0-31. I feel like .500 is the ceiling. Maybe 'mailing it in' was too strong but a general feeing of apathy surrounding the program next year.

Like everyone else here, this is just my opinion. As always, I'll hope for the best.

Yeah, don't confuse the fact that many fans are mailing it in with competitive athletes and coaches mailing it in. The latter happens only very rarely. This year's team had many chances to mail it in and yet I believe their competitiveness has been one of the few real positives of the season.

I know you didn't predict 0-31. I was using hyperbole ... and I at first thought you were too when you said they won't go .500 next season even with a bunch of cupcakes on the schedule. Especially given that they went .500 this season without many cupcakes and with a litany of problems.

Won 4 of their last 5. The opposite of mailing it in.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 08, 2021, 11:42:09 AM
It's all meaningless really.  I will find joy in whatever I want.

This jumps past the nihilism and right into Camus's absurdism. I approve.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 08, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
Preseason KPom 36, currently 74. That's at 49% which is an F.  Wojo needs a good final exam here for a passing grade. MU has some burn left.

Currently 60 on T-rank, preseason 71. That would be a solid grade.

Just a matter of TRank being too low at the beginning and Kenpom being too high. The reality was always somewhere in the middle.

Quote from: BM1090 on March 08, 2021, 02:06:00 PM
Currently 60 on T-rank, preseason 71. That would be a solid grade.

Just a matter of TRank being too low at the beginning and Kenpom being too high. The reality was always somewhere in the middle.

I think you've mostly got it.  As fans, I think we can objectively say/think MU underperformed this season.  However, using preseason computer numbers as PROOF of over/under performance is dumb.  Computers are probably worse than humans at projecting the value of an incoming player when that player has no college stats.

Put simply, MU ended the season ranked EXACTLY where the computers should have predicted they would have been preseason!  The computers guess was just way off.

Whether they over performed or under performed really doesn't matter.   The only thing that really matters is their actual performance which is well below what should be acceptable at Marquette.  To make it worse poor seasons are the trend rather than an anomaly. 

Definitely go with 18-19 year as the most disappointing.  This year would be second worst.  Going into this season my expectations were at right where we are now.  However,  knowing the new players talent level?  Very disappointing.  Really feel like a good coach would have us on the bubble.  Alas,  we need to win the BET to do it now.

Some teams that per KenPom numbers would beat us on a neutral floor (admittedly less home court advantage this year):

• 9-14 Northwestern
• Wright State
• Mississippi State
• Boise State
• Toledo

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 08, 2021, 10:52:41 AM
All five....   sad he has such a plethora of disappointing seasons in only 7 years...

Yes it is sad  but more importantly, unacceptable

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 08, 2021, 02:12:19 PM
I think you've mostly got it.  As fans, I think we can objectively say/think MU underperformed this season.  However, using preseason computer numbers as PROOF of over/under performance is dumb.  Computers are probably worse than humans at projecting the value of an incoming player when that player has no college stats.

Put simply, MU ended the season ranked EXACTLY where the computers should have predicted they would have been preseason!  The computers guess was just way off.

It's the computer's fault!!!!

-Ted "Rocky" Kaczynski

Quote from: Farley36 on March 08, 2021, 03:04:47 PM
Whether they over performed or under performed really doesn't matter.   The only thing that really matters is their actual performance which is well below what should be acceptable at Marquette.  To make it worse poor seasons are the trend rather than an anomaly.

What is your personal opinion on what should be acceptable at Marquette?

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 08, 2021, 04:07:30 PM
What is your personal opinion on what should be acceptable at Marquette?

Nearly every year finish in the top half of the Big East
Win a Big East title occasionally
Play in the NCAA tourney nearly every year
Win a game most years
Make it to the 2nd week at least as often as you don't
In special years at least feel like you could be a final four team if things fall right.

Buzz's teams were acceptable.  Crean's were acceptable. 

I honestly don't think that's too much to ask.  I'm not someone who thinks it should be like when Al was here. 

Quote from: Farley36 on March 08, 2021, 04:24:38 PM
Nearly every year finish in the top half of the Big East
Win a Big East title occasionally
Play in the NCAA tourney nearly every year
Win a game most years
Make it to the 2nd week at least as often as you don't
In special years at least feel like you could be a final four team if things fall right.

Buzz's teams were acceptable.  Crean's were acceptable. 

I honestly don't think that's too much to ask.  I'm not someone who thinks it should be like when Al was here.

Most of these are reasonable.  The second weekend "at least as often as you don't" is pretty absurd.  There are very few programs in the country that are making a Sweet Sixteen every other year, at least.

Tom Crean made it to the S16 once and only won one NCAA game outside of the Final Four year.

So your criteria is either off or you are misremembering the Crean era.

As others are saying, the S16 expectations are a little off, especially if Crean's results were considered acceptable.

Otherwise, though, that was the most reasonable post in Farley's career. Congrats!

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 08, 2021, 04:27:16 PM
Tom Crean made it to the S16 once and only won one NCAA game outside of the Final Four year.

So your criteria is either off or you are misremembering the Crean era.

The criteria are a rough idea but feel free to nitpick away.  Crean made it to the Final Four and had the single best player to play at Marquette perhaps ever.   That goes a long way.  Perhaps if Wojo ever even made it past the first round and wasn't famous for late season collapses he'd get cut some slack too.

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 08, 2021, 04:07:30 PM
What is your personal opinion on what should be acceptable at Marquette?

My personal opinion is beside the point. Here is what is acceptable to the decision makers at MU.

1. Finishing, on average, in 6.33 place in the Big East.
2. A .465 winning % in Big East games.
3. An NCAA tournament invite 33% of the time.
4. Zero NCAA tournament wins in 7 seasons.

This makes me sad.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2021, 04:52:31 PM
My personal opinion is beside the point. Here is what is acceptable to the decision makers at MU.

1. Finishing, on average, in 6.33 place in the Big East.
2. A .465 winning % in Big East games.
3. An NCAA tournament invite 33% of the time.
4. Zero NCAA tournament wins in 7 seasons.

This makes me sad.

It's ok because we beat UNC.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2021, 04:52:31 PM
My personal opinion is beside the point. Here is what is acceptable to the decision makers at MU.

1. Finishing, on average, in 6.33 place in the Big East.
2. A .465 winning % in Big East games.
3. An NCAA tournament invite 33% of the time.
4. Zero NCAA tournament wins in 7 seasons.

This makes me sad.

So you're going to include the 2019-2020 season as a chance for the NCAA Tournament, but count it as a miss. Makes sense.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2021, 04:52:31 PM
My personal opinion is beside the point. Here is what is acceptable to the decision makers at MU.

1. Finishing, on average, in 6.33 place in the Big East.
2. A .465 winning % in Big East games.
3. An NCAA tournament invite 33% of the time.
4. Zero NCAA tournament wins in 7 seasons.

This makes me sad.

But he's a good guy!

Quote from: BLM on March 08, 2021, 05:17:48 PM
So you're going to include the 2019-2020 season as a chance for the NCAA Tournament, but count it as a miss. Makes sense.

I did not, but I counted this year as a miss. 2 out of 6 is 33% which is what I said in #3.

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 01:29:09 PM
Yeah, don't confuse the fact that many fans are mailing it in with competitive athletes and coaches mailing it in. The latter happens only very rarely. This year's team had many chances to mail it in and yet I believe their competitiveness has been one of the few real positives of the season.

I know you didn't predict 0-31. I was using hyperbole ... and I at first thought you were too when you said they won't go .500 next season even with a bunch of cupcakes on the schedule. Especially given that they went .500 this season without many cupcakes and with a litany of problems.

Won 4 of their last 5. The opposite of mailing it in.

Fair enough. We have different expectations. If Wojo is here next year, I guess I don't see the "litany of problems" going away.

I will give Wojo props (but not an extension) if he can keep everyone for next year. If the wrong guy(s) transfer , IMHO, it will be an ugly season next year. Unfortunately, we have seen key players walk out on Wojo in the past, so this is a real possibility. 

Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 08, 2021, 05:57:59 PM
Fair enough. We have different expectations. If Wojo is here next year, I guess I don't see the "litany of problems" going away.

I will give Wojo props (but not an extension) if he can keep everyone for next year. If the wrong guy(s) transfer , IMHO, it will be an ugly season next year. Unfortunately, we have seen key players walk out on Wojo in the past, so this is a real possibility.

I don't think our expectations are very different.

You made a point of saying you didn't think we'd have one next year, and I simply said that this season - which most here believe was a total, unmitigated disaster - was a .500 season.

For the record, I expect MUCH better than .500 seasons from Marquette basketball. I expect a season like 2019-20 to be the "floor" - on the bubble, a few decent wins, a couple bad losses, sneaking in as a 10 seed. Otherwise, I want at least Buzz-like results, with some NCAA tourney wins, some second weekends. Would be nice to get a Final Four (or at least a legit shot at one) once or twice a decade.

Do you expect more than that?

Per @PaintTouches the lack of national media attention on the current MU coaches "seat" is a strong indication he'll be back next year.

Marquette's descent to irrelevance will only continue next season :(

Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on March 08, 2021, 07:24:28 PM
Per @PaintTouches the lack of national media attention on the current MU coaches "seat" is a strong indication he'll be back next year.

Marquette's descent to irrelevance will only continue next season :(

We're the perpetual 8 seed in the NBA playoffs.

Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2021, 06:34:30 PM
I don't think our expectations are very different.

You made a point of saying you didn't think we'd have one next year, and I simply said that this season - which most here believe was a total, unmitigated disaster - was a .500 season.

For the record, I expect MUCH better than .500 seasons from Marquette basketball. I expect a season like 2019-20 to be the "floor" - on the bubble, a few decent wins, a couple bad losses, sneaking in as a 10 seed. Otherwise, I want at least Buzz-like results, with some NCAA tourney wins, some second weekends. Would be nice to get a Final Four (or at least a legit shot at one) once or twice a decade.

Do you expect more than that?

I do think we have similar expectation of the MU program. Just because I expected a .500 season this year, by no means do I think it is acceptable for a program like MU. The past seven years have convinced me Wojo can't live up to mine or most MU fans expectations.

I have faith that MU will make a good hire sometime in the next year to replace Wojo because there will be plenty of really good coaches who would love the opportunity that MU is. Great fans, great conference, great facilities, great pay and a great University. MU Rah! Rah!

We lost to DePaul, because nobody could hit a shot. Some of the misses were not even close. It had nothing to do with coaching. Sometimes a team is just going to have a bad shooting game. Villanova just had one last week.

Quote from: bilsu on March 08, 2021, 08:09:07 PM
We lost to DePaul, because nobody could hit a shot. Some of the misses were not even close. It had nothing to do with coaching. Sometimes a team is just going to have a bad shooting game. Villanova just had one last week.

Unfortunately, losses to DePaul are one of many reasons to conclude that Wojo is not good enough for the MU and maybe any P6 job.  Off set DePaul losses with NCAA wins and this thread does not exist. Jay Wright could lose to DePaul once a year for the next five years and no one will call for his job.

My expectation is for MU to be as good as UW.  The end.

You know what's going to the most disappointing year for MU fans? 

Next year.  MU finishes 6th in the BE and MU keeps Wojo yet another year, because progress.  Yay.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 09, 2021, 08:29:47 AM
You know what's going to the most disappointing year for MU fans? 

Next year.  MU finishes 6th in the BE and MU keeps Wojo yet another year, because progress.  Yay.

That absolutely could happen.

So could this:

With the path we have - GT, Nova w/o starting backcourt, StJ/SH - we could win the BET this week. If that happens, Wojo could get a "legit" contract extension, one that doesn't involve significant lowering of the buyout.

In a way, it would be kinda funny because it would make some of Scoops' WOJO IS THE WORST COACH IN BASKETBALL HISTORY! NoJos' heads explode. But it probably wouldn't be good for the program medium- or long-term.

Just because message boards are a great place for hypothetical debate, let's say Wojo takes MU to the Final 4 next year after winning a Big East title, then leaves for another school. Would Wojo or Crean's overall body of work be better in this scenario?

My vote would still be for Crean, which says a lot for Wojo's tenure here. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Quote from: DienerTime34 on March 09, 2021, 01:40:12 PM
Just because message boards are a great place for hypothetical debate, let's say Wojo takes MU to the Final 4 next year after winning a Big East title, then leaves for another school. Would Wojo or Crean's overall body of work be better in this scenario?

My vote would still be for Crean, which says a lot for Wojo's tenure here. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Crean. Wojo has Ellanson and Markus to hang his hat on, I guess you could maybe argue Sam and Rowsey? Crean has Wade Deiner Novak, 3 amigos and Lazar.

I'd say Creans successes are heads and shoulders better

Quote from: DienerTime34 on March 09, 2021, 01:40:12 PM
Just because message boards are a great place for hypothetical debate, let's say Wojo takes MU to the Final 4 next year after winning a Big East title, then leaves for another school. Would Wojo or Crean's overall body of work be better in this scenario?

My vote would still be for Crean, which says a lot for Wojo's tenure here. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Crean, because of the difference in the program when each inherited it. And I'm not talking about the roster. Wojo has far more at his disposal than Crean did when he took over. Better facilities, infrastructure, travel, conference, TV exposure, etc.

Quote from: MUfan12 on March 09, 2021, 02:26:05 PM
Crean, because of the difference in the program when each inherited it. And I'm not talking about the roster. Wojo has far more at his disposal than Crean did when he took over. Better facilities, infrastructure, travel, conference, TV exposure, etc.

How many losing records in conference did Crean have?

Quote from: DienerTime34 on March 09, 2021, 01:40:12 PM
Just because message boards are a great place for hypothetical debate, let's say Wojo takes MU to the Final 4 next year after winning a Big East title, then leaves for another school. Would Wojo or Crean's overall body of work be better in this scenario?

My vote would still be for Crean, which says a lot for Wojo's tenure here. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think Crean for sure. Even when he left, he had things set up really well. I mean, if Wojo has that kind of success, maybe things are in a good place for the next coach.

Crean did a great job of leaving the program better than he found it. I think Buzz did too, despite a rough final year and bashing the conference on the way out. I don't think Wojo has maintained the level of the program, much less improved it.

Today, I'll say Crean in a slam-dunk.

But I'll wait until after Wojo takes us to next season's Final Four to make my real determination.

Maybe if the 2022 Marquette Wojos get to the Final Four, we won't be down 100-0 before I get to my seat like the 2003 Marquette Creans were!

Crean by a landslide. The Wojo era has provided little success and lacks in excitement. Basically, a wasted seven years in MU basketball history.

It's Crean and it's not close.  He did far more for Marquette basketball

Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
That absolutely could happen.

So could this:

With the path we have - GT, Nova w/o starting backcourt, StJ/SH - we could win the BET this week. If that happens, Wojo could get a "legit" contract extension, one that doesn't involve significant lowering of the buyout.

In a way, it would be kinda funny because it would make some of Scoops' WOJO IS THE WORST COACH IN BASKETBALL HISTORY! NoJos' heads explode. But it probably wouldn't be good for the program medium- or long-term.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.

Make me eat Crow Wojo...

MU league records under Crean:
99-00 CUSA 8-8
01 9-7
02 13-3
03 14-2
04 8-8
05 7-9
06 Old BE 10-6
07 10-6
08 11-7

90-56, average 10-6, 6 above .500, 2. 500, 1 below .500

Wojo
15 New BE 4-14
16 8-10
17 10-8
18 9-9
19 12-6
20 8-10
21 8-11

59-68, average 8-10, 2 above .500, 1 .500, 4 below .500

Quote from: Eye on March 09, 2021, 06:24:20 PM
MU league records under Crean:
99-00 CUSA 8-8
01 9-7
02 13-3
03 14-2
04 8-8
05 7-9
06 Old BE 10-6
07 10-6
08 11-7

90-56, average 10-6, 6 above .500, 2. 500, 1 below .500

Wojo
15 New BE 4-14
16 8-10
17 10-8
18 9-9
19 12-6
20 8-10
21 8-11

59-68, average 8-10, 2 above .500, 1 .500, 4 below .500

Wojo in conference. Yikes...