MUScoop

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2021/02/16/marquette-lacrosse-player-off-team-after-racist-snapchat-video/6763657002/

Looks like they were also filming post coitus which is not exactly classy IMO but here's their video

https://mobile.twitter.com/asamarquette/status/1361622882720378880

They should be expelled.

Why in the world would anyone make that video anyway. It was completely pointless.

O, eye taught dis wuz gonna bee 'bout sum LAX dude porkin' a chick at da Al, hey?

Can someone translate wtf they were trying to even say?   Facemask, n-word? 

Since it didn't make sense, I thought it was some kind of slang .. and their pronunciation was strange.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 16, 2021, 04:06:08 PM
Can someone translate wtf they were trying to even say?   Facemask, n-word? 

Since it didn't make sense, I thought it was some kind of slang .. and their pronunciation was strange.

I assumed they were really intoxicated. But agreed it sounds like they literally say facemask followed by the n-word.

At the end, it was "Sand-N." Makes me sick

Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on February 16, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
At the end, it was "Sand-N." Makes me sick

Seriously. Are they stupid enough to think they wouldn't be caught or this wouldn't get negative feedback? Is this a thing where young people try to replicate the weird $hit "influencers" put out?

Disgusting.  And as others have sad, very odd.  Feel bad for their parents. 

It is so sad when people use that kind of language...and incredibly stupid to make a video and post it online.

They asked for their moment of infamy, and they got it.

He did not upload the video.  His girlfriend did. 

It is seven seconds long and it is unclear that he was aware he was being recorded by her (he never looked into the camera) or knew that she would upload it to social media, which she did last night. This is how fast things now move.

In the video, he was making up words to a song in the background when he said it. He said it in a way that he was searching for something to say.

I point this out because the assumption here is this was an intentional act to purposely say this, record this, and upload it to social media. 

It is more complicated.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 16, 2021, 04:23:51 PM
Seriously. Are they stupid enough to think they wouldn't be caught or this wouldn't get negative feedback? Is this a thing where young people try to replicate the weird $hit "influencers" put out?

Racist speech is never cool, but I'm always baffled by dumb crap like this. I knew people when I was younger/in college (I'm sure many millennials like me did) who were like this. Not out and out racist, would likely never call a minority a slur, didn't hold views that were traditionally racist, but though racist terms were hilarious.  The same people would chuck around f*g cause it was a funny world. And this was in the early to mid 2000s, much less now. People are quick to label the racists, but I actually doubt they are and it's even more insidious. It's an ambivalence and desensitization of disgusting hateful words because they mean nothing to you personally and you think it's funny or edgy

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 05:34:06 PM
He did not upload the video.  His girlfriend did. 

It is seven seconds long and it is unclear that he was aware he was being recorded by her (he never looked into the camera) or knew that she would upload it to social media, which she did last night. This is how fast things now move.

In the video, he was making up words to a song in the background when he said it. He said it in a way that he was searching for something to say.

I point this out because the assumption here is this was an intentional act to purposely say this, record this, and upload it to social media. 

It is more complicated.

Nah, it is not that complicated. Don't say that sort of thing and the problem resolves itself.

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 05:34:06 PM
He did not upload the video.  His girlfriend did. 

It is seven seconds long and it is unclear that he was aware he was being recorded by her (he never looked into the camera) or knew that she would upload it to social media, which she did last night. This is how fast things now move.

In the video, he was making up words to a song in the background when he said it. He said it in a way that he was searching for something to say.

I point this out because the assumption here is this was an intentional act to purposely say this, record this, and upload it to social media. 

It is more complicated.

Looks to me like he knew they were being filmed he's looking right below where the camera would be, at the screen where you'd see yourself. I don't know what you're talking about regarding the song lyrics, she said "do you have a face mask" he responded with the n-word, she repeated it, he said "sand n-word"

Normal people don't talk that way.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 16, 2021, 05:50:34 PM
Looks to me like he knew they were being filmed he's looking right below where the camera would be, at the screen where you'd see yourself. I don't know what you're talking about regarding the song lyrics, she said "do you have a face mask" he responded with the n-word, she repeated it, he said "sand n-word"

Normal people don't talk that way.

Agreed that is not normal talk.

But he did not record it, she did, he did not upload it, she did.  Half the posts here assume he purposely recorded and uploaded it.  Not clear he agreed to upload it.

Does it matter that he is a 19-year-old freshman?  Or do all the morally superior Boomers like Forgetful need him to suffer the MU death penalty (expulsion) so Forgetful can feel better about himself.

Is their any room for MU to keep him and make him understand the error of his ways.  Or, are we "cancel first" all the time.

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 05:59:59 PM
Agreed that is not normal talk.

But he did not record it, she did, he did not upload it, she did.  Half the posts here assume he purposely recorded and uploaded it.  Not clear he agreed to upload it.

Does it matter that he is a 19-year-old freshman?  Or do all the morally superior Boomers like Forgetful need him to suffer the MU death penalty (expulsion) so Forgetful can feel better about himself.

Is their any room for MU to keep him and make him understand the error of his ways.  Or, are we "cancel first" all the time.

You're dead on about who uploaded it. I don't think who recorded matters, I mean she's definitely less classy for recording a post bang video but again you see yourself in selfie mode and it  very clearly recording when someone's recording.

I agree he shouldn't be expelled, I think he should have to do a service day with one of the black clubs on campus or in Milwaukee. But he doesn't deserve the spot on the Lax team as it's not a right.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 16, 2021, 06:06:59 PM
You're dead on about who uploaded it. I don't think who recorded matters, I mean she's definitely less classy for recording a post bang video but again you see yourself in selfie mode and it  very clearly recording when someone's recording.

I agree he shouldn't be expelled, I think he should have to do a service day with one of the black clubs on campus or in Milwaukee. But he doesn't deserve the spot on the Lax team as it's not a right.

He's on scholarship, taking that away could be defacto death penalty given family finances (we don't know what percentage he's getting or the position of his family to cover the lost scholarship).

Need to consider carefully about kicking him off the team for a non-team error.

100% agree he should not be expelled.  No lessons are learned by this punishment.  He gets defensive that he is a victim to cancel culture. His friends and teammates could see it that way.

Everyone is better served to keep him around so everyone can watch him serve a penalty and understand that words matter.

Ill never understand the "benefit of the doubt" people excusing this behavior. Ill never understand trying to normalize racism.

Little nose candy on the girl's nose?

Free speech can be a b!tch.  You can say what you want, but now everyone knows who you are.  And who you are certainly isn't pretty.

Quote from: MU24 on February 16, 2021, 06:49:02 PM
Ill never understand the "benefit of the doubt" people excusing this behavior. Ill never understand trying to normalize racism.

Bingo.  I say stupid stuff.  But it's usually like "Gonzaga and Butler are so much better than everyone else" when I meant to say "Baylor."  Not "Sand n******."  People like that do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.  They let you know who they were.

Quote from: BLM on February 16, 2021, 06:51:58 PM
Little nose candy on the girl's nose?

Free speech can be a b!tch.  You can say what you want, but now everyone knows who you are.  And who you are certainly isn't pretty.

Bingo.  I say stupid stuff.  But it's usually like "Gonzaga and Butler are so much better than everyone else" when I meant to say "Baylor."  Not "Sand n******."  People like that do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.  They let you know who they were.

He's 19 and you are writing him off.

So you are letting us know who you are (along with your handle) and it is not a good look at all.

I doubt you get it.

Quote from: MU24 on February 16, 2021, 06:49:02 PM
Ill never understand the "benefit of the doubt" people excusing this behavior. Ill never understand trying to normalize racism.

To be clear, he said something wrong.  He should be punished.  The question is what is that punishment.

Seems you want the standard of punishment to be what makes you feel good about yourself, not what is appropriate for this situation.

Oh, do you also find "innocent until proven guilty" to also be something you do not understand?

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 05:59:59 PM

Does it matter that he is a 19-year-old freshman?  Or do all the morally superior Boomers like Forgetful need him to suffer the MU death penalty (expulsion) so Forgetful can feel better about himself.

Is their any room for MU to keep him and make him understand the error of his ways.  Or, are we "cancel first" all the time.

No, it doesn't matter that he is 19. He's an adult.

Seeing him expelled has nothing to do with me, but awesome of you to try and place this on me somehow. If he was an employee, he would be fired. He's an adult, he needs to learn actions have consequences. An expulsion would place the punishment at a level consistent with the real world.

It's not cancel culture, it is consequences for ones actions.

Quote from: forgetful on February 16, 2021, 07:07:18 PM
No, it doesn't matter that he is 19. He's an adult.

Seeing him expelled has nothing to do with me, but awesome of you to try and place this on me somehow. If he was an employee, he would be fired. He's an adult, he needs to learn actions have consequences. An expulsion would place the punishment at a level consistent with the real world.

It's not cancel culture, it is consequences for ones actions.

No, it is all about you, and making sure you feel good about yourself ... you're so self-absorbed in your sanctimony you are incapable of seeing it.

Fortunately your just an internet troll and not someone with any real decision-making authority ... because anyone that had to make real decisions does not think this way.

I see Heisey's been lacking attention again.

Heise back for the shock value attention. Better to normalize racism if it brings you attention on an anonymous internet forum than get no attention at all.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 16, 2021, 07:22:29 PM
I see Heisey's been lacking attention again.

Well dang. You beat me by 30 seconds.

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 06:13:26 PM
He's on scholarship, taking that away could be defacto death penalty given family finances (we don't know what percentage he's getting or the position of his family to cover the lost scholarship).

Not that it matters, but how the heck do you know he's on scholarship? Would you feel differently if he wasn't on scholarship?

I find this reprehensible. However ...

Personally, I'd like to see him get a second chance on the lacrosse team if he's contrite and if his coaches/teammates will still have him. But I understand it if the powers-that-be don't agree with me and feel there is no way he can be on the team. We do have freedom of speech in this country, but, as others have said, that freedom carries consequences if it is abused.

I certainly wouldn't kick him out of school, though, not unless there's a lot more to this story.

Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2021, 07:33:59 PM
I find this reprehensible. However ...

Personally, I'd like to see him get a second chance on the lacrosse team if he's contrite and if his coaches/teammates will still have him. But I understand it if the powers-that-be don't agree with me and feel there is no way he can be on the team. We do have freedom of speech in this country, but, as others have said, that freedom carries consequences if it is abused.

I certainly wouldn't kick him out of school, though, not unless there's a lot more to this story.

This pretty fairly represents my feelings.

FWIW, he's not listed on the LAX roster anymore. And if you try to find his MU LAX bio from a google search, you get a 404/no longer exists message.

Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2021, 07:33:59 PM
I find this reprehensible. However ...

Personally, I'd like to see him get a second chance on the lacrosse team if he's contrite and if his coaches/teammates will still have him. But I understand it if the powers-that-be don't agree with me and feel there is no way he can be on the team. We do have freedom of speech in this country, but, as others have said, that freedom carries consequences if it is abused.

I certainly wouldn't kick him out of school, though, not unless there's a lot more to this story.

The kicking him out of school serves two purposes.

1. It establishes a record of actions have consequences and shows MU is serious about inclusivity.

2. It actually benefits the two students in the video. If they are allowed to stay, everyone at MU knows who they are and what they did. That leads to two student groups, those that find it reprehensible and want nothing to do with them, and those that find it cool and think they are awesome. The latter is who they will have to gravitate towards, and the two will never grow from this. If they leave, they can start fresh anywhere, and possibly learn and grow from this. If they were smart, they'd already be planning on leaving to start fresh.

Quote from: Sir Lawrence on February 16, 2021, 05:19:27 PM
Disgusting.  And as others have sad, very odd.  Feel bad for their parents.

Why? How do we know they didn't learn this at home? People aren't born racist. It is a learned behavior.

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 05:59:59 PM
Agreed that is not normal talk.

But he did not record it, she did, he did not upload it, she did.  Half the posts here assume he purposely recorded and uploaded it.  Not clear he agreed to upload it.

Does it matter that he is a 19-year-old freshman?  Or do all the morally superior Boomers like Forgetful need him to suffer the MU death penalty (expulsion) so Forgetful can feel better about himself.

Is their any room for MU to keep him and make him understand the error of his ways.  Or, are we "cancel first" all the time.

It makes no difference who recorded it. He said what he said.

FYI, telling people not to use racist terms is not "cancel culture". It is decency.

As to kicking him out of school, it is not necessary if he does recompense for his actions. If he refuses, see ya later.

Honestly, I'm shocked that anyone would defend this kid.

Circumstances are irrelevant.

Defending what he said is defending racism.  Time for some introspection Heisey.

Quote from: forgetful on February 16, 2021, 07:07:18 PM
No, it doesn't matter that he is 19. He's an adult.

Seeing him expelled has nothing to do with me, but awesome of you to try and place this on me somehow. If he was an employee, he would be fired. He's an adult, he needs to learn actions have consequences. An expulsion would place the punishment at a level consistent with the real world.

It's not cancel culture, it is consequences for ones actions.

It IS cancel culture.

They looked so drunk (or coked out of their minds) that i wouldn't be surprised if they had no recollection what they said since the whole thing didn't make any sense. 
Don't think it warrants expulsion. 

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on February 16, 2021, 06:13:26 PM
He's on scholarship, taking that away could be defacto death penalty given family finances (we don't know what percentage he's getting or the position of his family to cover the lost scholarship).

Need to consider carefully about kicking him off the team for a non-team error.

100% agree he should not be expelled.  No lessons are learned by this punishment.  He gets defensive that he is a victim to cancel culture. His friends and teammates could see it that way.

Everyone is better served to keep him around so everyone can watch him serve a penalty and understand that words matter.

Not to stereotype but Lax players generally aren't exactly a hurting for money demographic. He also played AAU lax which is expensive, I know because I wasn't able to. Then he got to go to fancy private east coast prep schools (Iona Prep 17k/yr) afterwards. And finally Lax scholarships aren't usually full rides. Kicking him off the team isn't going to be a death sentence.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 16, 2021, 08:18:19 PM
Not to stereotype but Lax players generally aren't exactly a hurting for money demographic. He also played AAU lax which is expensive, I know because I wasn't able to. Then he got to go to fancy private east coast prep schools (Iona Prep 17k/yr) afterwards. And finally Lax scholarships aren't usually full rides. Kicking him off the team isn't going to be a death sentence.

MU has 59 guys on the LAX roster (I assume it was 60 yesterday). Those 60 kids are splitting 12.6 scholarships total (at most). I know nothing about this kid, and maybe he was a highly prized recruit, but it's certainly possible - if not likely - that he was getting little money from an LAX scholarship.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 16, 2021, 08:18:19 PM
Not to stereotype but Lax players generally aren't exactly a hurting for money demographic. He also played AAU lax which is expensive, I know because I wasn't able to. Then he got to go to fancy private east coast prep schools (Iona Prep 17k/yr) afterwards. And finally Lax scholarships aren't usually full rides. Kicking him off the team isn't going to be a death sentence.

FWIW, that "fancy prep school" only costs $2K more than MUHS or Catholic Memorial, same price as somewhere like Loyola Academy, even with East Coast inflation.  It's not like he went to Cushing or Choate, or even somewhere like USM in MKE.  So assuming his family is loaded to smoothly cover $40K a year in tuition at Marquette is a bit unfair.  I knew plenty of people who went to MUHS who weren't loaded, and they weren't star athletes.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 16, 2021, 08:02:55 PM
It IS cancel culture.

They looked so drunk (or coked out of their minds) that i wouldn't be surprised if they had no recollection what they said since the whole thing didn't make any sense. 
Don't think it warrants expulsion. 

"Cancel culture" has turned into this ridiculous stance that people should be able to say whatever they want without consequence.

That has never been the case and will never be the case. It's just become the latest buzz phrase for conservative victimization and is being parroted without thought by all types these days.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 16, 2021, 08:38:11 PM
"Cancel culture" has turned into this ridiculous stance that people should be able to say whatever they want without consequence.

That has never been the case and will never be the case. It's just become the latest buzz phrase for conservative victimization and is being parroted without thought by all types these days.

I'd argue it predates anything political, conservative or otherwise.  It started gaining ground as a phrase when anyone in the public eye had their behavior from the last 25 years scrutinized and a hug or action in 1982 was now deemed problematic and concerning.   It certainly has swung the way you described over the last 18 months, but I feel like 3-4 years ago it started, rightly, taking down people like Weinstein or other lifelong predators, but then started spreading to more and more grey areas.

Quote from: JWags85 on February 16, 2021, 08:34:37 PM
FWIW, that "fancy prep school" only costs $2K more than MUHS or Catholic Memorial, same price as somewhere like Loyola Academy, even with East Coast inflation.  It's not like he went to Cushing or Choate, or even somewhere like USM in MKE.  So assuming his family is loaded to smoothly cover $40K a year in tuition at Marquette is a bit unfair.  I knew plenty of people who went to MUHS who weren't loaded, and they weren't star athletes.

Yeah I'm not definitively saying he's loaded but there's enough evidence for me to believe it. And certainly enough where one could believe it isn't a death sentence

I'll defend the kids.

Honestly, no one really knows what these two drunkards are even attempting to communicate.  Here's the transcript:  "Do you have a facemask?  N*.  N*.  Facemask.  Sand N*."

Urban Dictionary reports "Sand N*" as a person of middle eastern descent.  That makes no sense, nor does N* pronounced in an odd way, talking about masks.

George Carlin said it well .. "There are no bad words.  There are bad thoughts, bad intentions, and woooooords."

I'm willing to hear that there was other damning context, e.g., "that person is a sand N*" or well, anything that suggests these two were intending to be racist or demeaning, or have a history of such.  That would change my opinion.

In the mean time, the mere utterance of a word, mispronounced, with insane context, should not get you excommunicated, thrown in educational jail.   

We've been down this path before, everyone hearing what they want, believing what they want, jumping to conclusions.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 16, 2021, 08:59:39 PM
I'll defend the kids.

Honestly, no one really knows what these two drunkards are even attempting to communicate.  Here's the transcript:  "Do you have a facemask?  N*.  N*.  Facemask.  Sand N*."

Urban Dictionary reports "Sand N*" as a person of middle eastern descent.  That makes no sense, nor does N* pronounced in an odd way, talking about masks.

George Carlin said it well .. "There are no bad words.  There are bad thoughts, bad intentions, and woooooords."

I'm willing to hear that there was other damning context, e.g., "that person is a sand N*" or well, anything that suggests these two were intending to be racist or demeaning, or have a history of such.  That would change my opinion.

In the mean time, the mere utterance of a word, mispronounced, with insane context, should not get you excommunicated, thrown in educational jail.   

We've been down this path before, everyone hearing what they want, believing what they want, jumping to conclusions.

Yeah. Drunk or not, context or not, the N word is a word that shouldn't be used. I'm hearing what they said. I didn't want to hear any words from these two. But I am because it's newsworthy.

Quote from: forgetful on February 16, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
The kicking him out of school serves two purposes.

1. It establishes a record of actions have consequences and shows MU is serious about inclusivity.

2. It actually benefits the two students in the video. If they are allowed to stay, everyone at MU knows who they are and what they did. That leads to two student groups, those that find it reprehensible and want nothing to do with them, and those that find it cool and think they are awesome. The latter is who they will have to gravitate towards, and the two will never grow from this. If they leave, they can start fresh anywhere, and possibly learn and grow from this. If they were smart, they'd already be planning on leaving to start fresh.

Sorry, we're gonna respectfully disagree on No. 1 here.

I'm big on trying to treat athletes like other students whenever possible. Are you arguing that any Marquette engineering or journalism or psychology or Spanish major who is caught on tape saying the N-word should be immediately expelled? No chance to show contrition? No opportunity to learn and grow? Zero-tolerance? One strike and you're out? Really?

As for No. 2 ... maybe ... but I don't think that's a reason to expel.

Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2021, 09:42:47 PM
Sorry, we're gonna respectfully disagree on No. 1 here.

I'm big on trying to treat athletes like other students whenever possible. Are you arguing that any Marquette engineering or journalism or psychology or Spanish major who is caught on tape saying the N-word should be immediately expelled? No chance to show contrition? No opportunity to learn and grow? Zero-tolerance? One strike and you're out? Really?

As for No. 2 ... maybe ... but I don't think that's a reason to expel.

They might not get expelled but they may lose a scholarship, particularly if there's a character clause in it. And thus any scholarship athlete should be held to the same standard. If he wants to walk on he should have that right but Marquette shouldn't scholarship him IMO.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 16, 2021, 08:24:20 PM
MU has 59 guys on the LAX roster (I assume it was 60 yesterday). Those 60 kids are splitting 12.6 scholarships total (at most). I know nothing about this kid, and maybe he was a highly prized recruit, but it's certainly possible - if not likely - that he was getting little money from an LAX scholarship.

And he'd be getting even less if Wally was still at MU, aina?

 i'm thinking forget does not have any children of his own...or not anymore...wow! 

Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 16, 2021, 10:04:46 PM
i'm thinking forget does not have any children of his own...or not anymore...wow!

Not surprising that your children would use racial slurs.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 16, 2021, 09:59:48 PM
They might not get expelled but they may lose a scholarship, particularly if there's a character clause in it. And thus any scholarship athlete should be held to the same standard. If he wants to walk on he should have that right but Marquette shouldn't scholarship him IMO.

Fair.

Quote from: BLM on February 16, 2021, 06:51:58 PM
Little nose candy on the girl's nose?

Free speech can be a b!tch.  You can say what you want, but now everyone knows who you are.  And who you are certainly isn't pretty.

Bingo.  I say stupid stuff.  But it's usually like "Gonzaga and Butler are so much better than everyone else" when I meant to say "Baylor."  Not "Sand n******."  People like that do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.  They let you know who they were.

Technically you just said (typed) the slur:

https://abovethelaw.com/2021/01/law-school-n-word-controversy-is-more-complicated-than-it-appears-at-first-glance/

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 16, 2021, 08:38:11 PM
"Cancel culture" has turned into this ridiculous stance that people should be able to say whatever they want without consequence.

That has never been the case and will never be the case. It's just become the latest buzz phrase for conservative victimization and is being parroted without thought by all types these days.

It's deeper than that. It's just a new way of saying "boycott" but with a sense of permanency. "Cancelled" is something that kids said to ostracize someone they didn't like. It's a term that moved into mainstream society. Go back to the Dixie Chicks, a campaign of "cancellation" liberals rightfully lambasted. Back then it was "boycott," now it's "cancel." Even small things that offend people on both sides scream "cancel." There was a campaign to cancel Bryan Adams for saying people should go vegan because he said someone in China ate a bat and now the world was shut down. Seriously? People care that much about Bryan Adams??

The whole "cancel culture" campaign and debate is ridiculously childish on both sides.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 16, 2021, 10:42:07 PM
Technically you just said (typed) the slur:

https://abovethelaw.com/2021/01/law-school-n-word-controversy-is-more-complicated-than-it-appears-at-first-glance/

It's deeper than that. It's just a new way of saying "boycott" but with a sense of permanency. "Cancelled" is something that kids said to ostracize someone they didn't like. It's a term that moved into mainstream society. Go back to the Dixie Chicks, a campaign of "cancellation" liberals rightfully lambasted. Back then it was "boycott," now it's "cancel." Even small things that offend people on both sides scream "cancel." There was a campaign to cancel Bryan Adams for saying people should go vegan because he said someone in China ate a bat and now the world was shut down. Seriously? People care that much about Bryan Adams??

The whole "cancel culture" campaign and debate is ridiculously childish on both sides.

I directly quoted the kid in the video, while censoring the word. Just like this person did in her article.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 16, 2021, 10:42:07 PM
Technically you just said (typed) the slur:

https://abovethelaw.com/2021/01/law-school-n-word-controversy-is-more-complicated-than-it-appears-at-first-glance/

It's deeper than that. It's just a new way of saying "boycott" but with a sense of permanency. "Cancelled" is something that kids said to ostracize someone they didn't like. It's a term that moved into mainstream society. Go back to the Dixie Chicks, a campaign of "cancellation" liberals rightfully lambasted. Back then it was "boycott," now it's "cancel." Even small things that offend people on both sides scream "cancel." There was a campaign to cancel Bryan Adams for saying people should go vegan because he said someone in China ate a bat and now the world was shut down. Seriously? People care that much about Bryan Adams??

The whole "cancel culture" campaign and debate is ridiculously childish on both sides.

Not sure quoting a white blogger's stance is the best if you're looking to make a point that censoring the word is still using it. I would love to take that defense case and I am not even a lawyer.

Quote from: BLM on February 16, 2021, 10:54:20 PM
I directly quoted the kid in the video, while censoring the word. Just like this person did in her article.

Which was equated to actually saying the word in the campaign to get the professor disciplined. Intent isn't necessary. That's the direction the whole debate and "cancellation" has gone.

What was the intent? Before permanently ruining this kid's life (which is the end game of both sides who seek to "cancel") figure that out. If there's a pattern of similar actions (like the Lacrosse girl over the summer) send him packing.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 16, 2021, 11:20:04 PM
Which was equated to actually saying the word in the campaign to get the professor disciplined. Intent isn't necessary. That's the direction the whole debate and "cancellation" has gone.

What was the intent? Before permanently ruining this kid's life (which is the end game of both sides who seek to "cancel") figure that out. If there's a pattern of similar actions (like the Lacrosse girl over the summer) send him packing.

Without wading into the rest of this nonsense, could we at least be honest enough here to recognize that if this kid loses his lacrosse scholarship, or is asked to take his talents elsewhere, his life is not "permanently ruined." Like, he's not going to go straight from Schroeder Hall to a cardboard box on lower Wacker, OK?

Marquette has a student code of conduct. It undoubtedly will be followed with the consequences that it prescribes. We don't know if they are repeat offenders for instance.

Expulsion would be an overreaction as a first offense. I am sure Marquette's code combines education with punishment and a chance at redemption in cases like these. As it should.

The athletic scholarship issue is different given that an athletic code of conduct may have higher standards.

Quote from: JWags85 on February 16, 2021, 08:42:32 PM
I'd argue it predates anything political, conservative or otherwise.  It started gaining ground as a phrase when anyone in the public eye had their behavior from the last 25 years scrutinized and a hug or action in 1982 was now deemed problematic and concerning.   It certainly has swung the way you described over the last 18 months, but I feel like 3-4 years ago it started, rightly, taking down people like Weinstein or other lifelong predators, but then started spreading to more and more grey areas.

The phrase started when people would try to cancel events where someone was speaking who had different political opinions than they did. Mostly liberal students on college campus trying to get conservative speaker events cancelled.

It was blown out of proportion but was at least a legit issue. Now it's become a meaningless mark of victimization.

Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2021, 09:42:47 PM
Sorry, we're gonna respectfully disagree on No. 1 here.

I'm big on trying to treat athletes like other students whenever possible. Are you arguing that any Marquette engineering or journalism or psychology or Spanish major who is caught on tape saying the N-word should be immediately expelled? No chance to show contrition? No opportunity to learn and grow? Zero-tolerance? One strike and you're out? Really?

As for No. 2 ... maybe ... but I don't think that's a reason to expel.

Reasonable take. My question is how do they show contrition? How do they prove an attempt to grow? If they'd agree to something like 100 hours of community service, maybe tutoring in inner-city public schools, that'd be different. But in my experience, people like these two would rather transfer than do that type of service.

I would also carve out an exception. There was a case of a girl (cheerleader I believe) that had her admission revoked due to an old recording of her saying the same word. In that case, she was singing a well known song. Although, I'd argue that she shouldn't sing that lyric, that is a clear point where one can correct behavior and make the individual more aware.

Here, they apparently used the language, because they thought it would be cool to use the language. And decided that publicly sharing the video would make them "cooler". That is pretty egregious. My guess is that an investigation will find patters of behavior in these students, and in the peer group. I'm confident that investigation is ongoing.

My stance remains that it is best for both parties to go their separate ways.

**disclosure. I'm also embittered by seeing too many of these types of instances at private institutions, and then giving students a slap on the wrist and essentially teaching them not to get caught on camera. No behavior changes, they simply just don't publicize it. There is so much inequity in punishments.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 04:32:54 AM
The phrase started when people would try to cancel events where someone was speaking who had different political opinions than they did. Mostly liberal students on college campus trying to get conservative speaker events cancelled.

It was blown out of proportion but was at least a legit issue. Now it's become a meaningless mark of victimization.

It's another phrase that has a pretty loose definition and different people view it differently. I think most people agree that certain actions deserve negative consequences. The issue then, is how severe should those consequences be? And to some extent there is also a question of how long should they be implemented?

Where I see an issue with the idea of cancel culture (or Twitter mobs, or whatever else you want to call it) is that very often people want harsher and more severe consequences than those that are handed out by the powers that be. So in a situation like this where a student deservedly loses his scholarship, people will call for harsher punishments. Punishments that live with the offender for a long time. Calls for second chances are viewed as lenient or weak.

And that type of culture seems to be growing and becoming more prevalent. Complete strangers weighing in a person's value to society and their moral compass based on one tweet or statement is way too common. Wanting to see a person doxxed so they lose their career, lose relationships, endure lasting punishment is becoming part of our (largely online) culture. This is way beyond boycotting a business over moral/ethical disagreements. It's not about sending a message in hope to inspire change or improvement. It's schadenfreude. It's vengeance. And that type of culture needs to be addressed.

My two cents.

Edit - I would also add that there is often a push to punish more and more people beyond just the offenders. Marquette, its administrators, and student body are being lumped in with the students and viewed as equally worthy of condemnation by some. This view of wanting to seek punishment/embarrassment for broad groups also seems to be growing.

Quote from: forgetful on February 17, 2021, 10:17:07 AM
Reasonable take. My question is how do they show contrition? How do they prove an attempt to grow? If they'd agree to something like 100 hours of community service, maybe tutoring in inner-city public schools, that'd be different. But in my experience, people like these two would rather transfer than do that type of service.

I would also carve out an exception. There was a case of a girl (cheerleader I believe) that had her admission revoked due to an old recording of her saying the same word. In that case, she was singing a well known song. Although, I'd argue that she shouldn't sing that lyric, that is a clear point where one can correct behavior and make the individual more aware.

Here, they apparently used the language, because they thought it would be cool to use the language. And decided that publicly sharing the video would make them "cooler". That is pretty egregious. My guess is that an investigation will find patters of behavior in these students, and in the peer group. I'm confident that investigation is ongoing.

My stance remains that it is best for both parties to go their separate ways.

**disclosure. I'm also embittered by seeing too many of these types of instances at private institutions, and then giving students a slap on the wrist and essentially teaching them not to get caught on camera. No behavior changes, they simply just don't publicize it. There is so much inequity in punishments.

Even though we disagree on this, your take also is reasonable.

Brief anecdote on this being "best for both parties" ...

A couple years ago at the HS where I used to coach, the best player on the boys' team, a junior, used some very ugly language on Snapchat about an opponents' Black players. It was discovered, went viral. He was dismissed from the team with about a month left in the season and, though he wasn't expelled, he finished the year being home-schooled. Several of his Black teammates were quoted as saying they could never look at the kid the same way, and they doubted they could play with him again. I didn't blame them.

He actually returned the following year - both to school and the team. They had a big team meeting, he apologized profusely, promised to make it up to them, said that wasn't "the real me," etc etc. They actually accepted him back and he was the second-leading scorer on team that won 20+ games. Graduated in June (virtually, of course, just as everyone else did due to COVID-19). I think he's playing this season at a prep school somewhere.

Anyway, I couldn't believe he decided to stay at the school, let alone try to play with the same kids. But he did, they seemingly accepted him, and the second chance might play a big part in him living a more productive life. Or it could entitle him and give him an "I can get away with anything" attitude. We'll see. But I have to say I'm glad he got a second chance.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 16, 2021, 11:28:53 PM
Without wading into the rest of this nonsense, could we at least be honest enough here to recognize that if this kid loses his lacrosse scholarship, or is asked to take his talents elsewhere, his life is not "permanently ruined." Like, he's not going to go straight from Schroeder Hall to a cardboard box on lower Wacker, OK?

no, it's not. But that's not the end goal of cancel culture warriors.  The goal is to hang a scarlet letter around the neck of those "canceled," to bully future schools into not admitting them or employers from hiring them. The internet does not forget.

And, no matter what MU does they're screwed. The right will attack them if the administration if the kids are expelled, screaming "cancel culture." If they are not expelled the left will accuse MU of promoting and upholding "white supremacy."

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 17, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
no, it's not. But that's not the end goal of cancel culture warriors.  The goal is to hang a scarlet letter around the neck of those "canceled," to bully future schools into not admitting them or employers from hiring them. The internet does not forget.

::) ::) ::)

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 11:51:02 AM

::) ::) ::)

ask the Central Park Karen about it...

Quote from: JWags85 on February 16, 2021, 08:42:32 PM
I'd argue it predates anything political, conservative or otherwise.  It started gaining ground as a phrase when anyone in the public eye had their behavior from the last 25 years scrutinized and a hug or action in 1982 was now deemed problematic and concerning.   It certainly has swung the way you described over the last 18 months, but I feel like 3-4 years ago it started, rightly, taking down people like Weinstein or other lifelong predators, but then started spreading to more and more grey areas.

Cancel culture is not always a bad thing when used for current events.

My issue with it is when we use today's standards to cancel someone from a different era. When we try to cancel, Washington, Jefferson, or Lincoln using standards from 2020, the whole thing borders on the ridiculous.

It's amazing that a couple of random drunk MU Freshmen saying the N word on snapchat warrants a big article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 12:24:26 PM
It's amazing that a couple of random drunk MU Freshmen saying the N word on snapchat warrants a big article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Why is that amazing?

Quote from: BLM on February 17, 2021, 12:38:12 PM
Why is that amazing?

That's "news"/newspaper worthy?

It was bizarre.  "Two drunk MU students said the N word on snapchat" being right next to a story about the Winter storm in Texas that included fatalities.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 12:24:26 PM
It's amazing that a couple of random drunk MU Freshmen saying the N word on snapchat warrants a big article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Were they random freshmen, or were they D1 scholarship athletes who represent the university? Are you talking about a different story? Was there a second incident not involving somebody on the LAX team?

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 12:47:08 PM
That's "news"/newspaper worthy?

It was bizarre.  "Two drunk MU students said the N word on snapchat" being right next to a story about the Winter storm in Texas that included fatalities.

It is indeed crazy that a local newspaper would highlight local news on par with the weather 1,000 miles away.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 17, 2021, 01:29:39 PM
It is indeed crazy that a local newspaper would highlight local news on par with the weather 1,000 miles away.

Two obnoxious drunk freshmen aren't news. 

The storm of the century causing devastation across TX is 1000X more important.

Interestingly not arriving on campus seems to have been for the best for the young women's lax recruit. Perhaps she should reach out to Jack Cleary as they're from roughly the same area

https://riverheadnewsreview.timesreview.com/2020/09/102160/after-losing-scholarship-riverhead-grad-looks-to-share-her-story-to-help-others/

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 02:30:44 PM
Two obnoxious drunk freshmen aren't news. 

The storm of the century causing devastation across TX is 1000X more important.

Ah yes, the "boys will be boys" excuse.  For inexcusable behavior.

And in today's N-word news from Wisconsin .. https://wisconsinexaminer.com/brief/kerr-twitter-nword/

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 02:30:44 PM
Two obnoxious drunk freshmen aren't news. 

The storm of the century causing devastation across TX is 1000X more important.

Crazy thought, but stick with me for a second here .... what if a newspaper published more than one story a day?

Quote from: Pakuni on February 17, 2021, 04:09:15 PM
Crazy thought, but stick with me for a second here .... what if a newspaper published more than one story a day?

Right.  And that one of them is about a local university that has been in the news in the past for the same exact topic!

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 04:18:03 PM

Right.  And that one of them is about a local university that has been in the news in the past for the same exact topic!

I think there is a large swath of white people in this world that just want to be able to say the n-word again without ramifications instead of understanding it's history because it exposes them to who they really are.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 17, 2021, 05:10:15 PM
I think there is a large swath of white people in this world that just want to be able to say the n-word again without ramifications instead of understanding it's history because it exposes them to who they really are.

I think there are a large swath of people in this world that are racist, some of which are Scoop posters. I think there are a large swath of people in the world that attempt to marginalize less supported groups of people out of insecure fear and for selfish gain.

There were plenty of these types at Marquette (and other places)

"Just Kidding" "It's just a joke" "People are too sensitive"  And their friends were at best, "Crickets."

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 17, 2021, 03:05:09 PM
And in today's N-word news from Wisconsin .. https://wisconsinexaminer.com/brief/kerr-twitter-nword/

did she actually say the word?

Quote from: shoothoops on February 17, 2021, 05:22:48 PM
I think there are a large swath of people in this world that are racist, some of which are Scoop posters. I think there are a large swath of people in the world that attempt to marginalize less supported groups of people out of insecure fear and for selfish gain.

There were plenty of these types at Marquette (and other places)

"Just Kidding" "It's just a joke" "People are too sensitive"  And their friends were at best, "Crickets."

I think I agree

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 04:18:03 PM

Right.  And that one of them is about a local university that has been in the news in the past for the same exact topic!

Is it a news story if a couple of UWM Freshman say offensive things on snapchat?

Or is it just being Marquette that makes it worthy of a big article in the paper?

Tarring and feathering these kids for one drunken mistake is horrific and beyond out of proportion.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 05:45:30 PM
Is it a news story if a couple of UWM Freshman say offensive things on snapchat?

Or is it just being Marquette that makes it worthy of a big article in the paper?

Tarring and feathering these kids for one drunken mistake is horrific and beyond out of proportion.

No it isn't.  Stop excusing this type of behavior.  If you say that word when you're drunk, you've for sure said it before.  It isn't funny, it isn't just boys being boys.  It's a hateful word that dehumanizes an entire race.  Stop making excuses.

No white person should ever use that word, full stop.   Drunk or sober.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 17, 2021, 05:45:30 PM
Is it a news story if a couple of UWM Freshman say offensive things on snapchat?

Or is it just being Marquette that makes it worthy of a big article in the paper?

Tarring and feathering these kids for one drunken mistake is horrific and beyond out of proportion.

Last time I checked 18 is an adult.

Also, aren't you supposed to be the party of personal responsibility? Well they weren't and now they're being held accountable

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 17, 2021, 05:39:32 PM
did she actually say the word?

No.  She explained she was called that in High School because she had big lips.  Which of course caused people's heads to explode.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 17, 2021, 05:56:59 PM
No.  She explained she was called that in High School because she had big lips.  Which of course caused people's heads to explode.

It was tone deaf and dumb to say, cause she doesn't need to equivocate her silly HS experiences as a white female to the experiences of black Americans with a hateful slur.  She should be smart enough to know that doesn't need to be said on social media to people who don't know her personally or without additional context. Without a doubt

But snap calling her racist as a result seemed a bit much. Like was it racist to acknowledge that stupid people associated "big lips" with black people? I can't help think her status as a Republican politician likely ignited most of it, given current events.

Quote from: JWags85 on February 18, 2021, 12:31:39 AM
It was tone deaf and dumb to say, cause she doesn't need to equivocate her silly HS experiences as a white female to the experiences of black Americans with a hateful slur.  She should be smart enough to know that doesn't need to be said on social media to people who don't know her personally or without additional context. Without a doubt

But snap calling her racist as a result seemed a bit much. Like was it racist to acknowledge that stupid people associated "big lips" with black people? I can't help think her status as a Republican politician likely ignited most of it, given current events.

100%

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 17, 2021, 05:53:56 PM
Last time I checked 18 is an adult.

Also, aren't you supposed to be the party of personal responsibility? Well they weren't and now they're being held accountable

I think these students need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Painful lesson for these two to learn about both racist language and social media.

If you say vile things and post them in a public forum, you invite a public reaction — and that's exactly what they got. It speaks volumes that some peoples' instinct here is to victimize them, even though they're only experiencing the foreseeable consequences of their conduct. Take ownership, apologize, learn why what you did was wrong, and move on (and at another school if necessary).

Quote from: Babybluejeans on February 18, 2021, 08:40:15 AM
Painful lesson for these two to learn about both racist language and social media.

If you say vile things and post them in a public forum, you invite a public reaction — and that's exactly what they got. It speaks volumes that some peoples' instinct here is to victimize them, even though they're only experiencing the foreseeable consequences of their conduct. Take ownership, apologize, learn why what you did was wrong, and move on (and at another school if necessary).

Nobody's victimizing them.  But the punishment may end being far more severe than the offense.

Public reaction is fine.

MU expelling them would not be.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 18, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
Nobody's victimizing them.  But the punishment may end being far more severe than the offense.

Public reaction is fine.

MU expelling them would not be.

Finally something we can agree on. That being said I wouldn't get my undies in a bunch over "may be worse than the crime" wait till it happens and till then focus on the wrong that actually did happen.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 18, 2021, 11:23:48 AM
Finally something we can agree on. That being said I wouldn't get my undies in a bunch over "may be worse than the crime" wait till it happens and till then focus on the wrong that actually did happen.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've told my kids that it's a waste of energy to be preemptively angry about something. No need being mad about something until it happens.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 18, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
Nobody's victimizing them.  But the punishment may end being far more severe than the offense.

Public reaction is fine.

MU expelling them would not be.

I agree with this...depending upon their previous student conduct record.

Quote from: NolongerWarriors on February 18, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
Nobody's victimizing them.  But the punishment may end being far more severe than the offense.

Public reaction is fine.

MU expelling them would not be.

Do you think they deserve to be punished?

Who should be doing the punishing?

What should the punishment be?

I've got a problem with any punishment for the remarks, except for whoever posted the video.  What some drunken idiot says at a party is not newsworthy if you ask me, even if he is a LAX player.  Drunk people says obnoxious stupid things with regularity.  You want to punish him for underage drinking, ok with me, that is breaking a law.  Of course what he said is reprehensible and evidence to some degree that he may not be a good person.  Last I checked, there is no law against being an a-hole, and you are allowed in America to speak your mind, even if you are a moron.   

But what kind of idiot posts that where others can see it unless he/she hates the guy?

I do not understand this generation on any level.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 01:50:43 PM
I've got a problem with any punishment for the remarks, except for whoever posted the video.  What some drunken idiot says at a party is not newsworthy if you ask me, even if he is a LAX player.  Drunk people says obnoxious stupid things with regularity.  You want to punish him for underage drinking, ok with me, that is breaking a law.  Of course what he said is reprehensible and evidence to some degree that he may not be a good person.  Last I checked, there is no law against being an a-hole, and you are allowed in America to speak your mind, even if you are a moron.   

But what kind of idiot posts that where others can see it unless he/she hates the guy?

I do not understand this generation on any level.

I'm mostly with you here ... although I do think being a member of a college sports team is a right, and it carries with it certain responsibilities.

While I think I would have tried to figure out a way to keep him on the team, I can understand it if the coach, AD and/or university president wasn't feeling as generous.

But yeah, why post such a thing? Can't argue about that.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 01:50:43 PM
I've got a problem with any punishment for the remarks, except for whoever posted the video.  What some drunken idiot says at a party is not newsworthy if you ask me, even if he is a LAX player.  Drunk people says obnoxious stupid things with regularity.  You want to punish him for underage drinking, ok with me, that is breaking a law.  Of course what he said is reprehensible and evidence to some degree that he may not be a good person.  Last I checked, there is no law against being an a-hole, and you are allowed in America to speak your mind, even if you are a moron.   

But what kind of idiot posts that where others can see it unless he/she hates the guy?

I do not understand this generation on any level.

Law? No.

Student code of conduct? Athlete code of conduct? Maybe

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 01:50:43 PM
I've got a problem with any punishment for the remarks, except for whoever posted the video.  What some drunken idiot says at a party is not newsworthy if you ask me, even if he is a LAX player.  Drunk people says obnoxious stupid things with regularity.  You want to punish him for underage drinking, ok with me, that is breaking a law.  Of course what he said is reprehensible and evidence to some degree that he may not be a good person.  Last I checked, there is no law against being an a-hole, and you are allowed in America to speak your mind, even if you are a moron.   

But what kind of idiot posts that where others can see it unless he/she hates the guy?

I do not understand this generation on any level.

It's a clear violation of Marquette's Student Code of Conduct.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 01:50:43 PM
I've got a problem with any punishment for the remarks, except for whoever posted the video.  What some drunken idiot says at a party is not newsworthy if you ask me, even if he is a LAX player.  Drunk people says obnoxious stupid things with regularity.  You want to punish him for underage drinking, ok with me, that is breaking a law.  Of course what he said is reprehensible and evidence to some degree that he may not be a good person.  Last I checked, there is no law against being an a-hole, and you are allowed in America to speak your mind, even if you are a moron.   

But what kind of idiot posts that where others can see it unless he/she hates the guy?

I do not understand this generation on any level.

Ostensibly, he is an employee of the university as a LAX player on scholarship.  As such, he represents the university.  Much like if you had a business and this was your employee, you'd probably show him the door; Marquette may yank the scholarship.  At minimum this sends a message that Marquette doesn't tolerate bigoted behavior amongst the representatives that receive a scholarship to play a sport. 

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 01:55:57 PM


It's a clear violation of Marquette's Student Code of Conduct.

Any code of conduct that legislates what I can say to my friends at a private party is a BS code of conduct. 

Also, I do not dismiss underage drinking, either, that is a punishable offense. 

If he said any of this in a public forum I'd be right with you.  The fact that this is an issue is because someone put it out there for the world to see.  Nobody would want their dumbest or most insensitive thing they said while drunk made public.  I hate the language, but I also hate the mindset that says, "Here's something everyone should see"

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 02:03:07 PM
Any code of conduct that legislates what I can say to my friends at a private party is a BS code of conduct. 

Also, I do not dismiss underage drinking, either, that is a punishable offense. 

If he said any of this in a public forum I'd be right with you.  The fact that this is an issue is because someone put it out there for the world to see.  Nobody would want there dumbest or most insensitive thing they said while drunk made public.  I hate the language, but I also hate the mindset that says, "Here's something everyone should see"

Just making sure I'm understanding correctly, your logic is anything that goes on at a party shouldn't be included in codes of conduct and if someone shows evidence of what is happening it's the videographer's fault?

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 02:03:07 PM
Any code of conduct that legislates what I can say to my friends at a private party is a BS code of conduct. 

But that's not what happened.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 18, 2021, 01:56:24 PM
Ostensibly, he is an employee of the university as a LAX player on scholarship.  As such, he represents the university.  Much like if you had a business and this was your employee, you'd probably show him the door; Marquette may yank the scholarship.  At minimum this sends a message that Marquette doesn't tolerate bigoted behavior amongst the representatives that receive a scholarship to play a sport. 

Aside from the fact that he was on the LAX team (emphasis on "was"), is there any evidence that this kid was, in fact, on scholarship? That said, as a member of the team and athletics department (i.e., representative of the University), I have no doubt that there are some rules applicable to him that wouldn't be applicable to the wider student body.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Just making sure I'm understanding correctly, your logic is anything that goes on at a party shouldn't be included in codes of conduct and if someone shows evidence of what is happening it's the videographer's fault?

When it is non-threatening speech, yes.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 18, 2021, 02:19:23 PM
Aside from the fact that he was on the LAX team (emphasis on "was"), is there any evidence that this kid was, in fact, on scholarship? That said, as a member of the team and athletics department (i.e., representative of the University), I have no doubt that there are some rules applicable to him that wouldn't be applicable to the wider student body.

The former player has been identified as redshirt freshman Defenseman/LSM Jack Cleary. A native of Bronxville, N.Y. and product of Iona Prep (N.Y.), Cleary was initially reportedly to be on a full athletic scholarship at Marquette but it was later revealed that he was a walk on. He has been removed for their roster online.

So I guess he wasn't on scholarship, so Marquette can't take that away.  But he is no longer on the team, so I guess that is the extent of his punishment.  Hopefully, both students are given the assistance they need to correct their behavior and understand the gravity of their words.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 02:14:36 PM

But that's not what happened.

If I missed something in context, apologize.  Based on what I saw in the story, I thought someone posted a video of a LAX player using racial slurs in a social setting. 

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 02:41:47 PM
If I missed something in context, apologize.  Based on what I saw in the story, I thought someone posted a video of a LAX player using racial slurs in a social setting. 

But you said "Any code of conduct that legislates what I can say to my friends at a private party is a BS code of conduct."

But they weren't people just talking amongst themselves at a private party.  Recording it and putting it on social media means it is no longer private.  It would be like opening up a window in McCormick back in my day and shouting out the N-word. 

The fact is that this is against codes of conduct at many places.  And most are dealt with way short of suspension and expulsion.  Marquette is hardly in a unique position with this.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 01:50:43 PM

But what kind of idiot posts that where others can see it unless he/she hates the guy?

This is what my wife asked. While not defending what was said, she was interested in the context and the why was it posted. Only thing I can think of is the self-centered look at me echo chamber of likes on social media. Short-term thinking to be sure.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 02:47:38 PM
But you said "Any code of conduct that legislates what I can say to my friends at a private party is a BS code of conduct."

But they weren't people just talking amongst themselves at a private party.  Recording it and putting it on social media means it is no longer private.  It would be like opening up a window in McCormick back in my day and shouting out the N-word. 

The fact is that this is against codes of conduct at many places.  And most are dealt with way short of suspension and expulsion.  Marquette is hardly in a unique position with this.

Did the kid that said what he said know it was going to put on social media?  It was turned from private to public by someone other than the speaker as I understand it, which means it does not equate to you yelling out the window at McCormick.

I don't understand why anyone would want to put a party on the internet anyway, which is the reason for me not understanding this generation. 

I've seen the majority on this board say it is right for the NBA to force a man to sell his team for remarks made in a private conversation that was surreptitiously recorded, a girl get suspended from her high school soccer team for being at a party where other people were underage drinking, and now an MU kid removed from the LAX team for being an a-hole by using offensive language when he was drunk.  I suppose I do not get why we are so willing to punish harshly for these things, which to me seem to be violations of each individuals rights. 

I'd bet all of us have said things that we wish we hadn't in our lives.  Fortunately for us, they probably weren't recorded and presented to the world.  I guess this old man needs to  get with the times, but in this regard I really don't want to.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 03:02:47 PM
Did the kid that said what he said know it was going to put on social media?  It was turned from private to public by someone other than the speaker as I understand it, which means it does not equate to you yelling out the window at McCormick.

I don't understand why anyone would want to put a party on the internet anyway, which is the reason for me not understanding this generation. 

I've seen the majority on this board say it is right for the NBA to force a man to sell his team for remarks made in a private conversation that was surreptitiously recorded, a girl get suspended from her high school soccer team for being at a party where other people were underage drinking, and now an MU kid removed from the LAX team for being an a-hole by using offensive language when he was drunk.  I suppose I do not get why we are so willing to punish harshly for these things, which to me seem to be violations of each individuals rights. 

I'd bet all of us have said things that we wish we hadn't in our lives.  Fortunately for us, they probably weren't recorded and presented to the world.  I guess this old man needs to  get with the times, but in this regard I really don't want to.

You're assuming he's drunk, he has slurred speech but there's no empty bottles or anything so thats purely conjecture.

You're assuming they're at a party, they weren't. Watch the video they both sweaty and underneath a blanket clearly just had sex or showered. Not exactly at a kegger where they thought it'd be funny.

you're right about we've all said and done things that I'm glad weren't on video. But the difference is they got caught. You mentioned underage drinking earlier, I drank a ton underage but nobody ticketed me but does that mean that those who got caught at the wrong place or wrong time don't get ticketed? Same situation with speeding or any other act.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 18, 2021, 03:12:54 PM
You're assuming he's drunk, he has slurred speech but there's no empty bottles or anything so thats purely conjecture.

You're assuming they're at a party, they weren't. Watch the video they both sweaty and underneath a blanket clearly just had sex or showered. Not exactly at a kegger where they thought it'd be funny.

you're right about we've all said and done things that I'm glad weren't on video. But the difference is they got caught. You mentioned underage drinking earlier, I drank a ton underage but nobody ticketed me but does that mean that those who got caught at the wrong place or wrong time don't get ticketed? Same situation with speeding or any other act.

Well, frankly, my point comes down to if the speaker did not expect what he said to be made public, I don't see the punishable offense.  If he posted the video or gave permission to post the video, then I get that a punishment is in order. 

I find the idea that private non-threatening private speech can be a punishable offense as more dangerous than using racial slurs.  It cuts to the core of what freedom is.  As for your examples, underage drinking or speeding are against the law, being an a-hole isn't.  I find the act of posting the video more reprehensible than the language used, personally, because the speech doesn't hurt anyone until it is made public.

Of course I do not condone nor do I participate in the use of such language, or hang around with anyone who does for that matter.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 03:26:27 PM
Well, frankly, my point comes down to if the speaker did not expect what he said to be made public, I don't see the punishable offense.  If he posted the video or gave permission to post the video, then I get that a punishment is in order. 

I find the idea that private non-threatening private speech can be a punishable offense as more dangerous than using racial slurs.  It cuts to the core of what freedom is.  As for your examples, underage drinking or speeding are against the law, being an a-hole isn't.  I find the act of posting the video more reprehensible than the language used, personally, because the speech doesn't hurt anyone until it is made public.

Of course I do not condone nor do I participate in the use of such language, or hang around with anyone who does for that matter.

Well the speaker said it towards a recording camera that was on selfie mode. In the very least it was known to be on a permanent record.

Again, freedom isn't getting away with anything you feel like without consequence. Playing lacrosse or even attending Marquette are privileges, they are not rights, you have a right to say whatever you want, but that does not mean that the privileges you have will remain. Since the other to examples didn't do it, then did you ever punish your kids for swearing when they were young? If they got in trouble for swearing at grade school did you rush in about free speech?

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 03:02:47 PM
Did the kid that said what he said know it was going to put on social media?  It was turned from private to public by someone other than the speaker as I understand it, which means it does not equate to you yelling out the window at McCormick.

I don't understand why anyone would want to put a party on the internet anyway, which is the reason for me not understanding this generation. 

It was Snapchat, so unless it was a story (where it stays to be viewed for 24 hours), it was likely sent to a group of friends where it disappears moments after viewing.  One of the people that it was sent to used a screen recording function and recorded it and disseminated it.  Which even further complicates the "why" or "how" did it get out.  It's not like the girl in question posted a Tweet or IG post that everyone saw.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 18, 2021, 03:26:27 PM
Well, frankly, my point comes down to if the speaker did not expect what he said to be made public, I don't see the punishable offense.  If he posted the video or gave permission to post the video, then I get that a punishment is in order. 

I find the idea that private non-threatening private speech can be a punishable offense as more dangerous than using racial slurs.  It cuts to the core of what freedom is.  As for your examples, underage drinking or speeding are against the law, being an a-hole isn't.  I find the act of posting the video more reprehensible than the language used, personally, because the speech doesn't hurt anyone until it is made public.

Of course I do not condone nor do I participate in the use of such language, or hang around with anyone who does for that matter.

There are principles other than freedom at play.  Being a member of a community, and living up to the standards the community sets is also a consideration.  They willingly agreed to abide by the code of conduct.  You can't complain that they are now held to the standards the code sets.

Quote from: JWags85 on February 18, 2021, 03:44:28 PM
It was Snapchat, so unless it was a story (where it stays to be viewed for 24 hours), it was likely sent to a group of friends where it disappears moments after viewing.  One of the people that it was sent to used a screen recording function and recorded it and disseminated it.  Which even further complicates the "why" or "how" did it get out.  It's not like the girl in question posted a Tweet or IG post that everyone saw.

Thanks for the explanation.   Well, the poster probably figured it wouldn't go past a circle of friends or something, but even I know enough to know that once you put something out there, you've lost control of it.  I guess one of those "friends" wasn't really his friend.

Quote from: JWags85 on February 18, 2021, 03:44:28 PM
It was Snapchat, so unless it was a story (where it stays to be viewed for 24 hours), it was likely sent to a group of friends where it disappears moments after viewing.  One of the people that it was sent to used a screen recording function and recorded it and disseminated it.  Which even further complicates the "why" or "how" did it get out.  It's not like the girl in question posted a Tweet or IG post that everyone saw.

Thought it was Tick Tok?

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 03:49:25 PM

There are principles other than freedom at play.  Being a member of a community, and living up to the standards the community sets is also a consideration.  They willingly agreed to abide by the code of conduct.  You can't complain that they are now held to the standards the code sets.

I assumed the speaker of the slurs did not know his words would be made public.  I am not so sure about that now based on information provided by other posters.  I am always willing to learn.

I stand by my original dissention that any standard that governs non-threatening private speech is not a standard that should be required of anyone nor adhered to by anyone.  You should not say offensive things because you're a human on this Earth with empathy for the other humans, not because you are forced to by some code of conduct.  If you willingly make such speech public, however, then you have to face the consequences. 

And if someone makes it public without your knowledge, they're a bigger a-hole than you are.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 03:49:25 PM

There are principles other than freedom at play.  Being a member of a community, and living up to the standards the community sets is also a consideration.  They willingly agreed to abide by the code of conduct.  You can't complain that they are now held to the standards the code sets.

I'm not disagreeing with you (and I'm not defending these two), but you've repeatedly stated that the violated the code of conduct and even said, "in many places." What portions of the code of conduct did they violate? I'm asking the question in good faith. I don't see a "hate speech" or some similar provision in the Code of Conduct (https://www.marquette.edu/student-development/policies/conduct-community-expectations.php#Standards_of_Conduct) (which, frankly, surprised me a little bit), but I may be looking at the wrong document or in the wrong place. Do they categorize such speech as "verbally abusing" or "interfering with health and safety" or "harassment"? I'm genuinely curious. Obviously, when made in person it would seem to violate each of those, but when done privately that isn't so clear. And yes, I acknowledge that posting it online moves it from the private to the public arena.

As I said earlier in the thread, I think that there should be consequence for these two. Using language like that is despicable and inexcusable. I don't think that it should be an expulsion offense, however, unless there is some other disciplinary history.

Edited to add: I'm aware that they likely violated the alcohol policy...but that's not really what we're discussing in this thread.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 18, 2021, 03:56:58 PM
Thought it was Tick Tok?

No, def Snapchat. You can see her Bitmoji in the corner and the whole interface is clearly Snapchat. Doesn't make it any better or less reprehensible, but it definitely seems like it wasn't supposed to be public outside of a circle of friends.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 18, 2021, 04:05:45 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you (and I'm not defending these two), but you've repeatedly stated that the violated the code of conduct and even said, "in many places." What portions of the code of conduct did they violate? I'm asking the question in good faith. I don't see a "hate speech" or some similar provision in the Code of Conduct (https://www.marquette.edu/student-development/policies/conduct-community-expectations.php#Standards_of_Conduct) (which, frankly, surprised me a little bit), but I may be looking at the wrong document or in the wrong place. Do they categorize such speech as "verbally abusing" or "interfering with health and safety" or "harassment"? I'm genuinely curious. Obviously, when made in person it would seem to violate each of those, but when done privately that isn't so clear. And yes, I acknowledge that posting it online moves it from the private to the public arena.

As I said earlier in the thread, I think that there should be consequence for these two. Using language like that is despicable and inexcusable. I don't think that it should be an expulsion offense, however, unless there is some other disciplinary history.

Edited to add: I'm aware that they likely violated the alcohol policy...but that's not really what we're discussing in this thread.

I am going by this update to the community from September.

https://today.marquette.edu/2020/09/update-from-president-and-provost-following-meeting-with-black-student-leaders/

"Climate: The university will review and revise, as needed, current policies regarding hate speech and racist behaviors to better allow for effective enforcement, with the goal to improve the campus environment for all students and employees."

Perhaps that hasn't been codified yet.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 04:17:46 PM

I am going by this update to the community from September.

https://today.marquette.edu/2020/09/update-from-president-and-provost-following-meeting-with-black-student-leaders/

"Climate: The university will review and revise, as needed, current policies regarding hate speech and racist behaviors to better allow for effective enforcement, with the goal to improve the campus environment for all students and employees."

Perhaps that hasn't been codified yet.

Thanks for the response. I didn't see that...makes me think that they haven't gotten it done yet. It also kind of makes me think that they realized that situations like the present one don't fit neatly into the code of conduct.

Quote from: JWags85 on February 18, 2021, 03:44:28 PM
It was Snapchat, so unless it was a story (where it stays to be viewed for 24 hours), it was likely sent to a group of friends where it disappears moments after viewing.  One of the people that it was sent to used a screen recording function and recorded it and disseminated it.  Which even further complicates the "why" or "how" did it get out.  It's not like the girl in question posted a Tweet or IG post that everyone saw.

I saw a different version where the screen recording continued to after the video was closed. This was posted as the person's story so that's fairly public.

Also, I'm thinking this was more drug use than alcohol. Or probably even both. Definitely white powder all over the girl's nose. Eyes are messed up. Face sweats. So they should probably face some punishment for that too.

MU Lax bro says racist stuff over social media,
UCLA track athlete, "Hold my beer"

https://www.tmz.com/2021/02/23/ucla-chris-weiland-dismissed-track-and-field-cross-country/

Quote from: Pakuni on February 23, 2021, 01:52:16 PM
MU Lax bro says racist stuff over social media,
UCLA track athlete, "Hold my beer cocaine."

https://www.tmz.com/2021/02/23/ucla-chris-weiland-dismissed-track-and-field-cross-country/

FIFY

Quote from: Pakuni on February 23, 2021, 01:52:16 PM
MU Lax bro says racist stuff over social media,
UCLA track athlete, "Hold my beer"

https://www.tmz.com/2021/02/23/ucla-chris-weiland-dismissed-track-and-field-cross-country/

That's just a very strange conversation for a kid to be having with his mom. I suppose it's to her credit that she told him not to talk like that.