I look at this season as a wasted year. I've been trying to find the silver lining in all of this frustration, and I have not been successful.
Results-wise, of course it's a disaster. We were predicted for 6th in the BE and we're challenging for 11th.
Perhaps, given the disappointing results, there has been player development causing optimism for the future. Discounting the seniors, who wouldn't return unless they had a honey in town, where has there been development?
DJ still has a suspect handle and makes ill-advised weak passes on top. DG has had his moments, but as we saw today, is clearly not strong enough to be a significant BE competitor. Justin is a gamer, and shows promise.
The rest of the group, meh. I wish Greg had not screwed up his ankle, it's an unforgiving joint.
Any one who thinks Dex, Petrez, or Sy is going to be a significant contributor is dreaming. Oso is a wild card, we haven't seen enough of him.
Coaching-wise, same old, same old, same old. And no indication that things will improve.
Bottom line, a lost, wasted year. Easy to give a pass on the virus, I really don't know if the results would have been any different without it.
I used to look forward to game days with excitement, now I do so with dread. I watch the games out of loyalty and habit, but can see the disappointment coming.
Please, God, let those who make the decisions take this cup (Wojo) away from us.
yep will be another waste next year if hes back. its a joke if he isnt let go.
I was optimistic for the first three or four years that Wojo would turn out to be a good hire. Now, I just want this season and Wojo's coaching tenure to come to merciful end. I had the volume turned down pretty low today, but did I hear Lavin compare MU's offense to Abbott and Costello? Can't really blame him. What Wojo sees in Perez, Torrence, and Akanno is a mystery to me. Even if a coaching change means hitting absolute rock bottom for a couple of years and completely starting over, it has to be done. Please, do not give Wojo a contract extension to reduce the buyout. Just tell him he's not getting an extension and maybe he will finally figure out he has failed here. I do not expect us to ever win another national championship, but I do expect us to be competitive. Right now, we are only competing for last in the BE - and we have already lost to the last place team. Absolutely unacceptable.
Have all the projos comer around or is there just general silence from them. This guy just plain sucks as a coach. I agree with the post above 100%.
Quote from: Japabound on February 14, 2021, 05:31:20 PM
Have all the projos comer around or is there just general silence from them. This guy just plain sucks as a coach. I agree with the post above 100%.
is anyone on here still genuinly pro jo? what would possibly be the argument. whackos
Quote from: Johnny B on February 14, 2021, 05:33:24 PM
is anyone on here still genuinly pro jo? what would possibly be the argument. whackos
There's Brutus on Twitter and Dodds. That's about it.
Quote from: Japabound on February 14, 2021, 05:31:20 PM
Have all the projos comer around or is there just general silence from them. This guy just plain sucks as a coach. I agree with the post above 100%.
I'd be shocked if there are any "Projos" left. Take for example how quiet this board is after another loss to an unranked team. There use to be arguments, points of optimism, something to debate. This board - like the MU fan base - is tired, defeated and no longer interested.
The program is staring down the barrel of a very defining moment when the season ends. Sadly it's coming at the worst possible time ( Financial situation, decreases enrollment, Covid, etc.) Let's see if the individuals making the big salaries, make the correct decisions.
Hard to argue with any of the points made. The team and the program are inherently broken, and a coaching change is undeniably needed at this point. I continue to believe we won't win another game this season. With the (lack of) talent we have, we essentially need to play a great game for 40 minutes while also hoping the opponent plays down to our struggles (poor shooting, turnovers and our continued inability to have defense lead to offense).
No more explanations need to be given. Wojo needs to go and a complete roster turnover is needed. It is what it is.
I guess the assertion that 'wins don't matter' by some on this board will put to the test.
I could see, but would disagree with, the strategy of another year due to financial reasons or lack of the right candidate being available. As I have said before, next year will be worse. The quicker he goes the better, for Wojo also since next year at MU could kill what he has left in his HC career.
A seasun on da brink, aina?
Covid saved Wojo's job last year after the last game DePaul loss and Covid is saving him this season with no fans in the stands..what does next bring us if he is back and fans are allowed in the Fiserv...will there be fans??????
MU has lost six of seven. We lost six of seven to end last year. We lost six of the last seven games to end 2019.
So much for being inconsistent.
Quote from: tosadoc2 on February 14, 2021, 05:57:21 PM
Covid saved Wojo's job last year after the last game DePaul loss and Covid is saving him this season with no fans in the stands..what does next bring us if he is back and fans are allowed in the Fiserv...will there be fans??????
I tend to think COVID hurt Wojo's job prospects related to last year. He lost the chance to salvage that season. Markus could have gone nuts for a game or two and we win a game or two in the tourney. Now, everyone just assumes we get our doors blown off.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on February 14, 2021, 05:45:56 PM
Hard to argue with any of the points made. The team and the program are inherently broken, and a coaching change is undeniably needed at this point. I continue to believe we won't win another game this season. With the (lack of) talent we have, we essentially need to play a great game for 40 minutes while also hoping the opponent plays down to our struggles (poor shooting, turnovers and our continued inability to have defense lead to offense).
No more explanations need to be given. Wojo needs to go and a complete roster turnover is needed. It is what it is.
Agree 100%. I've tried be positive about Wojo and his program/system but at this point I've given up any hope that he suddenly gets "IT", love the players he's brought in but lack of development, lack of basic fundamentals has to fall on someone and ultimately he's the guy
Hate to lose the roster but at this point a complete reboot is probably the only path forward.
Get us a junkyard dog of a coach, someone with some passion and enthusiasm since Wojo has turned into a bland non-winning dollar store version of Coach K
The good news is a basketball program can be corrected quickly. Wojo goes, so do some guys. A new coach comes in, so do some guys. Maybe, better guys.
Quote from: Marq3332 on February 14, 2021, 07:32:55 PM
The good news is a basketball program can be corrected quickly. Wojo goes, so do some guys. A new coach comes in, so do some guys. Maybe, better guys.
This is unfortunately no true at all. I am in the Wojo-out boat, but barring a miracle, it will cost us at least a few years of rebuilding before we see any decent results.
Quote from: Tha Hound on February 14, 2021, 07:47:42 PM
This is unfortunately no true at all. I am in the Wojo-out boat, but barring a miracle, it will cost us at least a few years of rebuilding before we see any decent results.
Don't look at Alabama with Oats. Or Houston with Kelvin. Or Buzz with Va Tech. Or underwood at UofI. Or Rick Barnes at UT. Or
Chris Beard at Texas Tech.
Not trying to be a smart a**, but it's very possible. Just trying to hammer home the point that the path to success is not with an assistant. Pay up for a guy with HC experience and we'll be back in no time.
If Wojo isn't our coach next year this was definitely not a lost season.
It's far more than a "Lost Season." It's a lost generation. 7 years of students never seeing a win in March, with more coming.
Even with a new coach, MU will be rebuilding for many more seasons. It's easy to imagine MU's fan interest reaching lows not seen in decades.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 14, 2021, 10:12:02 PM
It's far more than a "Lost Season." It's a lost generation. 7 years of students never seeing a win in March, with more coming.
Even with a new coach, MU will be rebuilding for many more seasons. It's easy to imagine MU's fan interest reaching lows not seen in decades.
Not necessarily if you get the hire right.
Quote from: panda on February 14, 2021, 07:56:07 PM
Don't look at Alabama with Oats. Or Houston with Kelvin. Or Buzz with Va Tech. Or underwood at UofI. Or Rick Barnes at UT. Or
Chris Beard at Texas Tech.
Not trying to be a smart a**, but it's very possible. Just trying to hammer home the point that the path to success is not with an assistant. Pay up for a guy with HC experience and we'll be back in no time.
Your point is well taken, that a rebuild might not take many years. But how quickly it will come depends upon how one defines "quickly." For example ...
Underwood was 14-18 in his first season at Illinois, 12-21 in his second and headed for a 7-9 seed in his third.
Buzz was 11-22 in his first season at Va Tech, didn't make the NCAAs in his second, and didn't win an NCAA tournament game there until his 5th season - after which he bolted to TAMU, where two years in he has been about a .500 coach.
Barnes was 15-19 in his first season at Tennessee and 16-16 in his second.
If we hired a guy with Beard's resume, you would have been one of the top complainers here ... and you would have had a lot of company.
Marquette will never hire a multiple-proven-dirty coach like Sampson, and you know it, so you might as well have mentioned Phil Jackson instead of him. Phil's just as likely.
So was what Buzz did at Va Tech and what he has done so far at TAMU "quick" enough for you? Maybe it was, and that's cool, but don't act like he got there and had them in the tourney in Year 1 and in the Sweet 16 in Year 2. Va Tech had been a tough place to win, and he did a great job changing the culture there, and maybe he'll do the same at TAMU ... but here's the facts, Jack: Buzz has won exactly 2 NCAA tournament games in his last 8 years as a coach. If our next coach accomplishes the exact same - 1 second weekend in 8 years - would that be good enough for you?
I know folks don't like to hear their fellow Scoopers being realistic, but sorry. Some of us are going to be realistic.
Speed of the rebuild if Wojo is fired this year depends on the approach of the coach who replaces him. If you get a guy who can keep the core guys together while brining in some transfers and quality freshmen, you could have better team next season than this season and a pretty good one by year two. If the new coach prefers to (or has to because he couldn't retain the core) wipe the slate clean and build from scratch. It will be at least a 3-5 year process.
A coach starting now would be different than when Wojo started. Wojo started with a roster that lost 5/6 of its top minutes guys from the last season. A new coach next year could have 3/6 of the top minutes guys and I think most would agree they are more talented half of the six.
All of the above are reasons to sack him now and get the search started.
What we're seeing from Woj is a guy who doesn't have a handle on his team, program, or coaching. His approach seems to be more of wanting to be a buddy or pal, than a mentor or coach, hey?
Anyone who thinks there'll be a quick rebuild needs to go to Arby's immediately and wallow in their wrongness.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 15, 2021, 07:28:18 AM
Anyone who thinks there'll be a quick rebuild needs to go to Arby's immediately and wallow in their wrongness.
Whether the rebuild is quick or slow is immaterial to me. What's important is that those in charge acknowledge their mistake and move forward.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2021, 08:52:30 AM
Whether the rebuild is quick or slow is immaterial to me. What's important is that those in charge acknowledge their mistake and move forward.
Ditto.
You make the change because the change must be made. The consequences will be the consequences. If you make a good hire, the rebuilding process will go faster and better.
Scholl has shown he can make a good hire with Duffy and I think Theis was a Scholl hire as well? Just gotta trust that it works out.
Was Wojo a Cords hire or Scholl? Don't think Scholl was around yet
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on February 15, 2021, 09:56:24 AM
Scholl has shown he can make a good hire with Duffy and I think Theis was a Scholl hire as well? Just gotta trust that it works out.
Was Wojo a Cords hire or Scholl? Don't think Scholl was around yet
As I recal Cords hired him but Scholl was consulted. Same with Wild/Lovell
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 15, 2021, 10:00:02 AM
As I recal Cords hired him but Scholl was consulted. Same with Wild/Lovell
Scholl was hired in September. He had nothing to do with Wojo's hire.
https://marquettewire.org/3884344/republican-national-convention/bill-scholl-hired-as-new-athletic-director/
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 15, 2021, 10:05:53 AM
Scholl was hired in September. He had nothing to do with Wojo's hire.
https://marquettewire.org/3884344/republican-national-convention/bill-scholl-hired-as-new-athletic-director/
My bad I thought we got him right around when we got spurned by Shaka
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 15, 2021, 10:07:03 AM
My bad I thought we got him right around when we got spurned by Shaka
Lovell was the hire they fast tracked for Shaka. I believe there was a rumor of Shaka having a list of ADs he wanted.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 15, 2021, 10:36:57 AM
Lovell was the hire they fast tracked for Shaka. I believe there was a rumor of Shaka having a list of ADs he wanted.
Was Mrs. Shaka his first choice for Marquette AD?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 15, 2021, 07:28:18 AM
Anyone who thinks there'll be a quick rebuild needs to go to Arby's immediately and wallow in their wrongness.
Then MU better get started sooner rather than later.
We want optimism in the program again. I want to return to the days of discussing why MU can't get a big man to compliment the 3 amigos while I watch great players like them win lots of games. This place was way more fun then. Fans always want more, but most of them do recognize when they have it pretty good.
MU has nothing good going right now.
Quote from: Badgerhater on February 15, 2021, 12:23:56 PM
Then MU better get started sooner rather than later.
We want optimism in the program again. I want to return to the days of discussing why MU can't get a big man to compliment the 3 amigos while I watch great players like them win lots of games. This place was way more fun then. Fans always want more, but most of them do recognize when they have it pretty good.
MU has nothing good going right now.
If we get Tom Crean again you'll get your wish
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 15, 2021, 12:26:30 PM
If we get Tom Crean again you'll get your wish
Tom Crean's teams won lots of games and Wade, Novak, Diener, James, McNeal, Mathews, Hayward and a cast of others were great players to watch.
Quote from: muwarrior97 on February 14, 2021, 06:13:01 PM
Agree 100%. I've tried be positive about Wojo and his program/system but at this point I've given up any hope that he suddenly gets "IT", love the players he's brought in but lack of development, lack of basic fundamentals has to fall on someone and ultimately he's the guy
Hate to lose the roster but at this point a complete reboot is probably the only path forward.
Get us a junkyard dog of a coach, someone with some passion and enthusiasm since Wojo has turned into a bland non-winning dollar store version of Coach K
This is where I stand too. I was still optimistic that Wojo maybe had it in him until a couple weeks ago. Now I'm convinced that he's not the man for this job. So maybe you can call me one of the last of the Projos, but I'm now a Nojo.
Quote from: Badgerhater on February 15, 2021, 02:10:54 PM
Tom Crean's teams won lots of games and Wade, Novak, Diener, James, McNeal, Mathews, Hayward and a cast of others were great players to watch.
Exactly you'll get your big 3 again and such. The teal was because we aren't getting Crean. He's got SEC money and unless he's dying to complete that soccer field donation he's not coming back
Crean sucks, but I'd almost take him over Wojo.
Quote from: MU82 on February 14, 2021, 10:17:58 PM
Your point is well taken, that a rebuild might not take many years. But how quickly it will come depends upon how one defines "quickly." For example ...
Underwood was 14-18 in his first season at Illinois, 12-21 in his second and headed for a 7-9 seed in his third.
Buzz was 11-22 in his first season at Va Tech, didn't make the NCAAs in his second, and didn't win an NCAA tournament game there until his 5th season - after which he bolted to TAMU, where two years in he has been about a .500 coach.
Barnes was 15-19 in his first season at Tennessee and 16-16 in his second.
If we hired a guy with Beard's resume, you would have been one of the top complainers here ... and you would have had a lot of company.
Marquette will never hire a multiple-proven-dirty coach like Sampson, and you know it, so you might as well have mentioned Phil Jackson instead of him. Phil's just as likely.
So was what Buzz did at Va Tech and what he has done so far at TAMU "quick" enough for you? Maybe it was, and that's cool, but don't act like he got there and had them in the tourney in Year 1 and in the Sweet 16 in Year 2. Va Tech had been a tough place to win, and he did a great job changing the culture there, and maybe he'll do the same at TAMU ... but here's the facts, Jack: Buzz has won exactly 2 NCAA tournament games in his last 8 years as a coach. If our next coach accomplishes the exact same - 1 second weekend in 8 years - would that be good enough for you?
I know folks don't like to hear their fellow Scoopers being realistic, but sorry. Some of us are going to be realistic.
I'd be pleased if MUBB was on par with several of these quick mentioned turn around teams.
Virginia Tech had made the NCAA's eight times in school history prior to Buzz. Buzz made the NCAA's three times in five years there.
Illinois had missed the NCAA's four straight seasons, and, had made it just three out of the previous ten seasons. Brad Underwood had them there in season three. They are currently a top 10 team in year four.
Rick Barnes won the SEC Regular Season League Title in year three there. He won 31 games and advanced to the NCAA 2nd weekend the following year. (after Tennessee missed NCAA's two of three previous seasons.)
Chris Beard made the Elite 8 year two and NCAA Runner Up, League Title year three.
I would take strong third season results, regular season and post season, and then keep building and keep ut going annually for many years.
Sign me up for that plan. Sooner is great, but season three is good.
Quote from: shoothoops on February 15, 2021, 02:50:01 PM
I'd be pleased if MUBB was on par with several of these quick mentioned turn around teams.
Virginia Tech had made the NCAA's eight times in school history prior to Buzz. Buzz made the NCAA's three times in five years there.
Illinois had missed the NCAA's four straight seasons, and, had made it just three out of the previous ten seasons. Brad Underwood had them there in season three. They are currently a top 10 team in year four.
Rick Barnes won the SEC Regular Season League Title in year three there. He won 31 games and advanced to the NCAA 2nd weekend the following year. (after Tennessee missed NCAA's two of three previous seasons.)
Chris Beard made the Elite 8 year two and NCAA Runner Up, League Title year three.
I would take strong third season results, regular season and post season, and then keep building and keep ut going annually for many years.
Sign me up for that plan. Sooner is great, but season three is good.
Successful rebuilds show fruit in two to three seasons in CBB. Patience is more than warranted for four years as well, but that's on the long end. Wait any longer than that and the job just gets that much harder for the next guy.
The biggest lie Wojo supporters have purported is that rebuilds take any longer than that. Anything beyond four years, questions should start being asked about roster management, recruiting, player development, tactical philosophy etc.
Quote from: panda on February 15, 2021, 02:56:16 PM
Successful rebuilds show fruit in two to three seasons in CBB. Patience is more than warranted for four years as well, but that's on the long end. Wait any longer than that and the job just gets that much harder for the next guy.
The biggest lie Wojo supporters have purported is that rebuilds take any longer than that. Anything beyond four years, questions should start being asked about roster management, recruiting, player development, tactical philosophy etc.
Wojo had MU in the NCAA Tournament in year 3 and was a 5 seed and alone in 2nd in the Big East in year 5.
Anyone who watched Kevin O'Neill in year one knew he was an upgrade over Bob Dukiet. He slipped in year two, mostly because Tony Smith graduated and the most talent he had was at the freshman level with Mac, Damon and Robb, but you knew MU was on the right path.
Ditto Crean. By year three, everyone knew they going places.
If Wojo leaves, even if a bunch of the players bug out, you will know in two years if they are on the right path.
Quote from: BLM on February 15, 2021, 03:00:21 PM
Wojo had MU in the NCAA Tournament in year 3 and was a 5 seed and alone in 2nd in the Big East in year 5.
And how'd that end up?
A rebuild implies the program has reestablished themselves to levels they were at before being down. Wojo is well under 500 against top 100 teams in his seven years. The rebuild was never completed. There was a flash in the pan, but mostly just average to below average teams.
Quote from: panda on February 15, 2021, 02:56:16 PM
Successful rebuilds show fruit in two to three seasons in CBB. Patience is more than warranted for four years as well, but that's on the long end. Wait any longer than that and the job just gets that much harder for the next guy.
The biggest lie Wojo supporters have purported is that rebuilds take any longer than that. Anything beyond four years, questions should start being asked about roster management, recruiting, player development, tactical philosophy etc.
John Beilein, Mick Cronin, Tony Bennett, Fran Mccaffery, and Kevin Willard would like a word with you.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 03:11:08 PM
John Beilein, Mick Cronin, Tony Bennett, Fran Mccaffery, and Kevin Willard would like a word with you.
After this latest loss, are you now on the "fire Wojo" train?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 03:11:08 PM
John Beilein, Mick Cronin, Tony Bennett, Fran Mccaffery, and Kevin Willard would like a word with you.
It can take some time. Jay Wright and Mike Krzyzewski made the NCAA's in year four at Villanova and Duke.
Beilein had Michigan in NCAA's year two. And in season four onward, rolling.
Tony Bennett had UVA in NCAA's in season three, rolling annually year five onward.
Mick Cronin the Cincy version is a good example of taking more time to get it going. (Not the UCLA version which is happening quickly)
Quote from: BLM on February 15, 2021, 03:00:21 PM
Wojo had MU in the NCAA Tournament in year 3 and was a 5 seed and alone in 2nd in the Big East in year 5.
Saying we were "alone in 2nd in the Big East" is certainly a new way to spin year five's collapse. Well done.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 15, 2021, 03:20:00 PM
Saying we were "alone in 2nd in the Big East" is certainly a new way to spin year five's collapse. Well done.
So we weren't alone in 2nd now.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 15, 2021, 03:17:32 PM
After this latest loss, are you now on the "fire Wojo" train?
You are very concerned about this. Go ahead and read some other threads, you'll find your answer.
Quote from: BLM on February 15, 2021, 03:00:21 PM
Wojo had MU in the NCAA Tournament in year 3 and was a 5 seed and alone in 2nd in the Big East in year 5.
Yep, and, this is in part why he kept his job without problem. What he hasn't done is keep it going/improve upon that after year 5. The next two seasons they've gone the other direction.
Quote from: shoothoops on February 15, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
It can take some time. Jay Wright and Mike Krzyzewski made the NCAA's in year four at Villanova and Duke.
Beilein had Michigan in NCAA's year two. And in season four onward, rolling.
Tony Bennett had UVA in NCAA's in season three, rolling annually year five onward.
Mick Cronin the Cincy version is a good example of taking more time to get it going. (Not the UCLA version which is happening quickly)
I don't think the 10 seeds that Beilein and Bennett earned in years 2 and 3 were any better than the 10 seed earned by Wojo in year 3. It took them both more than pandas "2 or 3 years" to get things going. I'd say it took Beilein 4 and Bennett 5. Which is fine.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 03:23:08 PM
You are very concerned about this. Go ahead and read some other threads, you'll find your answer.
Gotcha. Welcome to the suck.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 03:11:08 PM
John Beilein, Mick Cronin, Tony Bennett, Fran Mccaffery, and Kevin Willard would like a word with you.
Interesting -
I'm assuming the names you mentioned are not referencing their first or second stops so I'll just mention their big time jobs, even though Beilein won at stops before WV, Cronin was very successful at Murray State, Bennett did the impossible and won at Washington State, Mccaffrey was very successful at three stops before Iowa. Willard is the outlier.
Beilein was successful at WVA following a dumpster fire for several years within the program. He made a deep run into the tournament year three and followed it up with another run year four. He then went onto Michigan and we know how he did there.
It took Cronin five years, but he went on to make the tournament nine straight years. Consistency.
Bennett went to UVA after an extremely successful stint at a difficult place to win in WSU and made the tournament in year three. The previous two coaches, one being our old friend Dave Leito, had only been to the tournament twice in eleven seasons. He turned UVA around getting them to the tournament quickly. He missed the tournament the following season, but winning the previous year probably quelled some of the frustrations. The fifth season we to saw the Virginia everyone is familiar with today.
Your last two are interesting cases.
Mccaffrey had a ton of success at Siena and then made the tournament at both Lehigh and UNCG. He would've seemed to be a slam dunk hire for Iowa, but has only seen mixed results. He's having his best season this year but has never really taken the next step.
Willard had zero success at Iona before getting hired at Seton Hall and seems to be getting it together now. I sense some nepotism in both the Iona and Seton Hall hiring process if you catch my drift.
So to clarify, when I laid out my timeline, it was not championships by year three. It's steady improvement with tangible growth points. The majority of the above names fit into that criteria.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 03:33:13 PM
I don't think the 10 seeds that Beilein and Bennett earned in years 2 and 3 were any better than the 10 seed earned by Wojo in year 3. It took them both more than pandas "2 or 3 years" to get things going. I'd say it took Beilein 4 and Bennett 5. Which is fine.
Bennett and Beilein both made the NCAA's once in the their first three seasons. Wojo did as well. This matters, perhaps more to me than you. Not sure. It's a sign of progress. Checks a box. It gives you a nice appetizer at dinner, perhaps a Baltimore Crab Crake if you will. Full credit Wojo for showing something in year three. It's something to point to while taking another season or two to get to almost annual success. Later, an NCAA 5 seed gets full credit as well a few years ago.
Bennett of course went on to win 7 NCAA games in those first seven seasons, as well as two ACC Regular Season Titles.
Beilein of course also went on to win 7 NCAA games in his first seven seasons at Michigan, as well as a Regular Season Big Ten Title.
And both kept it going.
I believe the other thing where we may see things differently a little bit...UVA had made about three NCAA's in its previous fifteen plus seasons prior to Bennett. Michigan hadn't made the NCAA's in the previous decade or so prior to Beilein's hire. Marquette on the other hand, had NCAA's and success for five out of six seasons prior to Wojo under Buzz, and add Crean's last three, made the NCAA's or better, eight out of nine seasons. These are some things that also help paint the picture a bit.
Lots of goalpost moving in this thread
Quote from: BLM on February 15, 2021, 03:21:51 PM
So we weren't alone in 2nd now.
seems like Wojo snatched runner-up from the jaws of first place.
So I guess we're gonna re-litigate Wojo's record ...
Year 1 - 13-19 ... 9th BE ... Sucked, as most new coaches do, including most already mentioned in this thread.
Year 2 - 20-13 ... 7th BE ... Big season from 5-star NBA 1-and-done ... won preseason tourney in Brooklyn ... bad losses to Belmont and DePaul killed shot at NCAAs.
Year 3 - 19-13 ... 3rd BE ... Made NCAAs as 10 seed, lost to eventual FF team ... beat No. 7 Creighton and No. 1 Nova in 3-day span ... good seasons from 2 very promising freshmen, solid contributions from 2 transfers.
Year 4 ... 21-14 ... 6th BE ... 4-game losing streak in midseason and loss to DePaul killed NCAA chances ... made NIT and won 2 games ... Howard and Hauser established themselves as future stars.
Year 5 ... 24-10 ... 2nd BE ... Howard BE player of year, Hauser a standout ... 20-2 run from Nov. 23 to Feb. 23 included wins over Madison and 3 other top-15 teams put MU in top 10 ... late-season collapse ... NCAA 5-seed ... embarrassed by Ja State ... Hausers transfer after season due to poor chemistry.
After we crushed Providence on Feb. 23, 2019, to improve to 23-4 and take what seemed a commanding lead in the conference, only the biggest NoJos out there were claiming that the progression of the Marquette basketball program hadn't been pretty darn solid under Wojo.
We all know what happened next, and it's why we're now talking about this "lost season."
But yes, it's gonna take his replacement at least 3-4 years to build us into the kind of program we all want us to be ... if we make the right hire ... and we're a little lucky.
Quote from: panda on February 15, 2021, 03:37:11 PM
So to clarify, when I laid out my timeline, it was not championships by year three. It's steady improvement with tangible growth points. The majority of the above names fit into that criteria.
Ah. So when you said
Quote from: panda on February 15, 2021, 02:56:16 PM
The biggest lie Wojo supporters have purported is that rebuilds take any longer than that. Anything beyond four years, questions should start being asked about roster management, recruiting, player development, tactical philosophy etc.
You didn't actually mean rebuilds take 3 years or shorter. You meant there should be signs of progress in the first three years. I think anyone would agree with that.
For a rebuild to be complete, it usually takes 3 to 5. 5 is more common than 3.
Quote from: shoothoops on February 15, 2021, 04:11:28 PM
Bennett and Beilein both made the NCAA's once in the their first three seasons. Wojo did as well. This matters, perhaps more to me than you. Not sure. It's a sign of progress. Checks a box. It gives you a nice appetizer at dinner, perhaps a Baltimore Crab Crake if you will. Full credit Wojo for showing something in year three. It's something to point to while taking another season or two to get to almost annual success. Later, an NCAA 5 seed gets full credit as well a few years ago.
Bennett of course went on to win 7 NCAA games in those first seven seasons, as well as two ACC Regular Season Titles.
Beilein of course also went on to win 7 NCAA games in his first seven seasons at Michigan, as well as a Regular Season Big Ten Title.
And both kept it going.
I believe the other thing where we may see things differently a little bit...UVA had made about three NCAA's in its previous fifteen plus seasons prior to Bennett. Michigan hadn't made the NCAA's in the previous decade or so prior to Beilein's hire. Marquette on the other hand, had NCAA's and success for five out of six seasons prior to Wojo under Buzz, and add Crean's last three, made the NCAA's or better, eight out of nine seasons. These are some things that also help paint the picture a bit.
To be clear my argument is not to compare Wojo favorably to any of these coaches. Just that good coaches have often taken more than 3 years to complete a rebuild.
Im not sure what you meant about NCAA appearances mattering more to you. Appearances and seeding are my main criteria for judging coaches
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 05:35:14 PM
To be clear my argument is not to compare Wojo favorably to any of these coaches. Just that good coaches have often taken more than 3 years to complete a rebuild.
Im not sure what you meant about NCAA appearances mattering more to you. Appearances and seeding are my main criteria for judging coaches
I think we roughly agree after seeing your follow up posts after your first post when your focus was on number of years getting it going without clarifying that making the NCAA's in those first few years allows tor maybe one bad season in those first three years, or uneven success those first three seasons.
A coach gets a good progress report if you will, if that coach can produce a sign of progress, such as an NCAA in the first few seasons.
For me it isn't a complete picture to only say it took more than three years, without including the NCAA's progress, other etc...
And I also mentioned that Wojo seemingly walked into a better situation than the examples mentioned, and other examples. I believe your posts mostly mention the one season prior. I would include that in an evaluation, but, I would also expand well beyond that too.
Wojo walked into a better program. To me, that raises the ceiling for expected performance but doesn't necessarily raise the floor. I think the roster a coach inherits has the most impact on the floor if that makes sense
I think we're mostly in agreement too. For me, completing a rebuild means appearances are being strung together and seeds are getting higher. Before that, they're should absolutely be signs of progress otherwise coach needs to go.
Quote from: panda on February 15, 2021, 02:56:16 PM
Successful rebuilds show fruit in two to three seasons in CBB. Patience is more than warranted for four years as well, but that's on the long end. Wait any longer than that and the job just gets that much harder for the next guy.
The biggest lie Wojo supporters have purported is that rebuilds take any longer than that. Anything beyond four years, questions should start being asked about roster management, recruiting, player development, tactical philosophy etc.
I think roster turnover plays a role. It sure looks like Holtmann has done alright at both Butler and Ohio St. And think about it, no one knew who this guy was the year he became HC at Butler. Coincidentally it was the same year we hired Wojo. Find the right guy/gal. People are out there.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 04:36:31 PM
Ah. So when you said
You didn't actually mean rebuilds take 3 years or shorter. You meant there should be signs of progress in the first three years. I think anyone would agree with that.
For a rebuild to be complete, it usually takes 3 to 5. 5 is more common than 3.
No I meant what I said, but it seems like we're taking the same side here. A successful rebuild should take, at most, four years (a recruiting class). Given the dynamics of roster turnover in present day college basketball, successful coaches can utilize grad transfers/jucos/traditional transfers to win quicker than in four seasons.
To be clear, I'm not advocating for changes to be made if the program is winning and making deep runs into the tournament yet. But, questions should he asked of the program direction at that point.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 06:46:41 PM
I think roster turnover plays a role. It sure looks like Holtmann has done alright at both Butler and Ohio St. And think about it, no one knew who this guy was the year he became HC at Butler. Coincidentally it was the same year we hired Wojo. Find the right guy/gal. People are out there.
Finding the right person is important. Also equally important is knowing when you don't have the right person.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 15, 2021, 06:40:54 PM
Wojo walked into a better program. To me, that raises the ceiling for expected performance but doesn't necessarily raise the floor. I think the roster a coach inherits has the most impact on the floor if that makes sense
I think we're mostly in agreement too. For me, completing a rebuild means appearances are being strung together and seeds are getting higher. Before that, they're should absolutely be signs of progress otherwise coach needs to go.
👍✌️Agree here.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 06:46:41 PM
I think roster turnover plays a role. It sure looks like Holtmann has done alright at both Butler and Ohio St. And think about it, no one knew who this guy was the year he became HC at Butler. Coincidentally it was the same year we hired Wojo. Find the right guy/gal. People are out there.
Holtmann was Stevens' assistant and was promoted when Stevens went to the Celtics. Before that, he was a head coach for 3 years at Gardner-Webb, where he was 44-54 with one winning season, and before that he was an assistant at the hotbeds of Ohio, Gardner-Webb, Taylor and Geneva.
Had we hired him in 2014, Scoop would no longer exist today because it would have blown up. BOOM!
Quote from: MU82 on February 15, 2021, 09:39:07 PM
Holtmann was Stevens' assistant and was promoted when Stevens went to the Celtics. Before that, he was a head coach for 3 years at Gardner-Webb, where he was 44-54 with one winning season, and before that he was an assistant at the hotbeds of Ohio, Gardner-Webb, Taylor and Geneva.
Had we hired him in 2014, Scoop would no longer exist today because it would have blown up. BOOM!
Actually, Butler promoted that Brandon Miller guy (who I believe was also a Stevens assistant) who coached them for a year before Holtmann got promoted. But Miller stepped down after a year due to personal reasons, so it was a real "blink and you missed it" type run for him. I'm not sure Holtmann would even be a head coach right now if Miller hadn't left. Unfortunately, I think Butler has had one coaching change too many in the last eight years, and it looks like they may not be able to withstand it. For the sake of the conference, I hope I'm wrong.
But to your point, yes, it was a similar hire to Buzz at MU. I'm positive I wouldn't have been happy about it initially.
Quote from: MU82 on February 15, 2021, 09:39:07 PM
Holtmann was Stevens' assistant and was promoted when Stevens went to the Celtics. Before that, he was a head coach for 3 years at Gardner-Webb, where he was 44-54 with one winning season, and before that he was an assistant at the hotbeds of Ohio, Gardner-Webb, Taylor and Geneva.
Had we hired him in 2014, Scoop would no longer exist today because it would have blown up. BOOM!
If we would have done a Scoop Poll on the resume's of MU's last 6 hires my guess is their rankings going in would have been:
Deane
Dukiet
Wojo
KO/Crean
Buzz
Their results?
Buzz
KO/Crean
Wojo
Deane
Dukiet
Hmmm....
There's not really any point in litigating the Wojo timeline anymore. Both sides have had legit points. Ultimately the no-Jos were right.
I've always hung in the middle depending on the day until this season but there's no rational argument to keep him on at this point. I'd like to keep DC, DG, and JL in the program plus the incoming class as much as anyone but at what cost.
Hopefully we can make the right hire and keep some of that talent. If not that can't change the decision. He's had enough time. He ain't it.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on February 15, 2021, 10:45:05 PM
Actually, Butler promoted that Brandon Miller guy (who I believe was also a Stevens assistant) who coached them for a year before Holtmann got promoted. But Miller stepped down after a year due to personal reasons, so it was a real "blink and you missed it" type run for him. I'm not sure Holtmann would even be a head coach right now if Miller hadn't left. Unfortunately, I think Butler has had one coaching change too many in the last eight years, and it looks like they may not be able to withstand it. For the sake of the conference, I hope I'm wrong.
But to your point, yes, it was a similar hire to Buzz at MU. I'm positive I wouldn't have been happy about it initially.
Thanks for the correction. I forgot about Miller!
And thanks for the confirmation that Scoopers would have HATED a hire like Holtmann.
Quote from: MU82 on February 15, 2021, 11:55:05 PM
Thanks for the correction. I forgot about Miller!
And thanks for the confirmation that Scoopers would have HATED a hire like Holtmann.
I think your general takes on these "Scoopers would've hated" is too simplistic. In Holtmann's case, he took over a team that was nosediving into the 300s and lost 3 senior starters. He recruited new players and improved a 332 preseason prediction by 62 spots, finishing 270 on kenpom. In three years, his teams improved over their projection by an average 51 spots & he won over 20 games in year 3 when he left for Butler. His teams always showed in-season improvement & vastly outdid expectations.
Beard is similar. I believe you've said Scoopers would've been disappointed hiring a guy with one high major season at Little Rock, but look at that one season. In the history of kenpom, UALR has had 2 top-125 finishes: #97 in 2002 under Porter Moser and a massive outlier #56 under Beard with a 30-win season and NCAA upset of Purdue. That from a team projected #212 in the preseason, a staggering 156 spot improvement. Yes, it was one year, but it was the equivalent of taking over DePaul & leading them to a Sweet 16 in the first year with Leitao's players.
A coach that massively outperforms expectations and whose teams consistently improve as the season goes on seems to be exactly what we'd want. FWIW, that doesn't seem to be Buzz, who had the worst New Orleans season in a decade.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2021, 11:43:12 PM
If we would have done a Scoop Poll on the resume's of MU's last 6 hires my guess is their rankings going in would have been:
Deane
Dukiet
Wojo
KO/Crean
Buzz
Their results?
Buzz
KO/Crean
Wojo
Deane
Dukiet
Hmmm....
So if we hire you we'll win a few National Championships?
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2021, 07:49:11 AM
I think your general takes on these "Scoopers would've hated" is too simplistic. In Holtmann's case, he took over a team that was nosediving into the 300s and lost 3 senior starters. He recruited new players and improved a 332 preseason prediction by 62 spots, finishing 270 on kenpom. In three years, his teams improved over their projection by an average 51 spots & he won over 20 games in year 3 when he left for Butler. His teams always showed in-season improvement & vastly outdid expectations.
Beard is similar. I believe you've said Scoopers would've been disappointed hiring a guy with one high major season at Little Rock, but look at that one season. In the history of kenpom, UALR has had 2 top-125 finishes: #97 in 2002 under Porter Moser and a massive outlier #56 under Beard with a 30-win season and NCAA upset of Purdue. That from a team projected #212 in the preseason, a staggering 156 spot improvement. Yes, it was one year, but it was the equivalent of taking over DePaul & leading them to a Sweet 16 in the first year with Leitao's players.
A coach that massively outperforms expectations and whose teams consistently improve as the season goes on seems to be exactly what we'd want. FWIW, that doesn't seem to be Buzz, who had the worst New Orleans season in a decade.
We will agree to disagree about Beard and Holtmann.
Though maybe you're right, brew, and a new era is dawning. Maybe Scoopers so hate Wojo that they will embrace just about any replacement -- even guys whose only D1 coaching experience is 1 year at a mid-major or 3 meh seasons at a low-major.
Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
We will agree to disagree about Beard and Holtmann.
Though maybe you're right, brew, and a new era is dawning. Maybe Scoopers so hate Wojo that they will embrace just about any replacement -- even guys whose only D1 coaching experience is 1 year at a mid-major or 3 meh seasons at a low-major.
It's not where they do it, it's what they do while they're there. That's one reason I like Craig Smith, who has improved his teams every year and overachieves expectations repeatedly. Or why many are fans of Darian DeVries. Another that hasn't been mentioned but I'd give a look at is Grant McCasland, who hasn't won big, but has dramatically better results than the programs he's been at are accustomed to and regularly makes his teams much, much better.
We'd all love a Beilein type, but when they don't come, I'd take any of those three over some of the better known names that could be mentioned, like Anthony Grant or Porter Moser.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2021, 10:22:08 AM
It's not where they do it, it's what they do while they're there. That's one reason I like Craig Smith, who has improved his teams every year and overachieves expectations repeatedly. Or why many are fans of Darian DeVries. Another that hasn't been mentioned but I'd give a look at is Grant McCasland, who hasn't won big, but has dramatically better results than the programs he's been at are accustomed to and regularly makes his teams much, much better.
We'd all love a Beilein type, but when they don't come, I'd take any of those three over some of the better known names that could be mentioned, like Anthony Grant or Porter Moser.
OK. I hope we get somebody who proves to be good, regardless of resume.
I have no idea how a guy will do before he has to do it. I mean, there was absolutely no way to predict that Buzz would be any good at all. Or Crean or KO, for that matter. I'm sure Texas thought they were getting somebody who wouldn't take 6 years to be any good -- and Shaka
still has won exactly as many NCAA Tournament games as Texas coach as Wojo has at MU.
I sure couldn't have predicted any success at all for Beard or Holtmann based on each of their resumes, so I applaud your ability to do so.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 05:36:48 AM
What we're seeing from Woj is a guy who doesn't have a handle on his team, program, or coaching. His approach seems to be more of wanting to be a buddy or pal, than a mentor or coach, hey?
Seems very true.
The bottom line is he's not a good coach. Wish it were different but by his own admission he doesn't know how to coach. The trend points downward. Not good after 7 years. It's too bad we waste so much money on a bad HC. Not sure if any of his staff are good either. We need a new coach who hates losing. Who hates turn overs. Who can teach and coach up players.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 16, 2021, 02:40:54 PM
We need a new coach who hates losing.
Every coach at every level hates losing. Even Wojo.
Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2021, 02:26:56 PMI sure couldn't have predicted any success at all for Beard or Holtmann based on each of their resumes, so I applaud your ability to do so.
My point is that there are other indicators than just the program a coach comes from. There's a reason Beard was immediately hired by UNLV, then hired away by Texas Tech.
No one is guaranteed success. I never said nor inferred that. But I do believe there are coaches that will excite fans that aren't Beilein, Matta, or someone with a similar resume.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2021, 02:49:33 PM
My point is that there are other indicators than just the program a coach comes from. There's a reason Beard was immediately hired by UNLV, then hired away by Texas Tech.
No one is guaranteed success. I never said nor inferred that. But I do believe there are coaches that will excite fans that aren't Beilein, Matta, or someone with a similar resume.
Here's hoping we get to test that theory in less than 2 months!
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2021, 02:49:33 PM
My point is that there are other indicators than just the program a coach comes from. There's a reason Beard was immediately hired by UNLV, then hired away by Texas Tech.
No one is guaranteed success. I never said nor inferred that. But I do believe there are coaches that will excite fans that aren't Beilein, Matta, or someone with a similar resume.
There are a lot of loud voices here that will express their displeasure if we hire an assistant, a re-tread, etc.
There were a lot who expressed their displeasure with Buzz and Wojo hires simply because they weren't the caliber of what Matta or Belein would be now.
There are those who believe MU is a destination job and it should be looked at akin to a blueblood. And any hire less than the top of the mountain is a failure on the AD or admin.
More rational folks would have your viewpoint on a hire like Holtman or Beard.
Hiring coaches is a crapshoot, baby
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2021, 05:28:46 PM
Hiring coaches is a crapshoot, baby
Yep.
That's why I laugh when some Scooper loves or hates a hire (though I admit I broke my rule and got excited when Shaka was a #donedeal.
I'm neutral until convinced otherwise. Buzz had me in his corner by January of his first year - my first post here said as much. Took a little longer to be convinced Wojo was a bust.
I was quick to like Buzz, too. But I'm a pretty easy mark, as I'm a benefit-of-the-doubt optimist when it comes to the teams I root for, especially Marquette.
I was hopeful about (and expecting good results from) Hank, Majerus, Dukiet, KO, Deane, Creane, Buzz, Wojo ... all of 'em! Some didn't work out. Some worked out very well.
Next man up ... I think he'll get it done!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 16, 2021, 07:05:18 PM
Yep.
That's why I laugh when some Scooper loves or hates a hire (though I admit I broke my rule and got excited when Shaka was a #donedeal.
I'm neutral until convinced otherwise. Buzz had me in his corner by January of his first year - my first post here said as much. Took a little longer to be convinced Wojo was a bust.
Same here on all 3. I don't know of any potential candidate to replace Wojo that will really move the needle for me. That's more of a "I'm not sure who the hell is the hot thing" than anything and Shaka was definitely the hot thing in 2014. I've been talking myself into Porter Moser *ducks*
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2021, 05:28:46 PM
Hiring coaches is a crapshoot, baby
Yes
So never gamble. Do not play the game of chance.
Stick with what we have and throw in a 10 year extension.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2021, 05:37:40 AM
Yes
So never gamble. Do not play the game of chance.
Stick with what we have and throw in a 10 year extension.
That's not the point. The point is, hiring coaches is a crapshoot. Take a look at the hires of the last decade across the college basketball landscape. Some looked like slam dunks, some didn't and worked out. None of us know how the next coach at Marquette will work out but we hope for the best. Except you. The first time the new coach loses, you'll complain immediately because that's what you do.