MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: panda on December 24, 2020, 06:45:10 AM
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He has two years left on his deal and I’m unaware of what the buyout entails. I think there is a higher probability of the school extending him once again than firing him. The optics for either decision don’t look great given the universities budget short falls, but the relationship Wojo has with the school should entrance them to give out another extension.
Can they afford to not do either and let him be a lame duck coach on the recruiting front? Will the school have the courage to move on from the most tenured coach at Marquette since Al?
Excluding an incredible run throughout the second half of the season, I think the pressure will be massive on the school to move on from Wojo and not waste more years on a program spiraling into mediocrity.
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Wojo has a contract through 2023-24. So three years after this one. I have no idea what the buy out is though. Regardless it wouldn't look good to pay it given the school's financial circumstances. And I doubt that will happen anyway. He will be given a pass....again. "It's a young team." "It was an extraordinary year." Blah, blah, blah...
I would encourage him to move on.
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Wojo has a contract through 2023-24. So three years after this one. I have no idea what the buy out is though. Regardless it wouldn't look good to pay it given the school's financial circumstances. And I doubt that will happen anyway. He will be given a pass....again. "It's a young team." "It was an extraordinary year." Blah, blah, blah...
I would encourage him to move on.
My mistake on the year.
Either way, this is normally extension time for a coach as the school/coach wants to promise recruits he’ll be there for the players four year career. It becomes easy to recruit against when there’s instability at a program.
Marquette needs to have serious discussions about this and the effect it will have on the future of the program.
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Extend him if necessary but lower the buyout so it becomes essentially a series of one year contracts.
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I think extending him with a lower buyout is the way to go, regardless of this year's success or failures. I think the best case scenario is this team backing into the tournament and making a shock Sweet 16 run that gets someone in the ACC to come calling (Boston College?).
Honestly, I feel like we're in a cycle of mediocrity. Wojo will keep getting to the tournament two out of every three years with a low seed and always have us convinced that there's enough talent that we'll be really good in a year or two. Except that year or two will never actually arrive.
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He isn't going to be fired this year, barring scandal. He is what the BOT wants, he earned bonus points in how he got in front of supporting his players during the BLM, he has managed the COVID stuff as an adult, he has represented the university well, he has recruited well.
But eventually, the results of all of his good work needs to show up on the floor.
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What to do with the Marquette short term tactical thinking?
Stratigic thinking is a learned skill. Knowing the definition, understanding the concept is the easy part. Actually executing a stratigic plan is another matter.
When I was living in Quantico, VA back in the sixties they built Dulles Airport in the boondocks. There was NOTHING there, and it was far from D.C.. I had worked on a United airlines project while at Marquette, I was flying on 707's, I still didn't get it. Building something worthwhile takes time and many here don't understand long term strategy.
Villanova has been building their program for decades. Marquette is just starting, yes, Wojo has had a few false starts with Wisconsin in state recruiting, he has learned his lesson.
My takeaway from last night was watching the Villanova second string play. Jay Wright was giving us a look at the future. All things being equal, I think our first line would beat their second line.
Opportunistic short term thinking has put Marquette in its current position. Only long term stratigic thinking will solve the problem. Plan #2, magical thinking, bring back Buzz or Buzz #2.
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What to do with the Marquette short term tactical thinking?
Stratigic thinking is a learned skill. Knowing the definition, understanding the concept is the easy part. Actually executing a stratigic plan is another matter.
When I was living in Quantico, VA back in the sixties they built Dulles Airport in the boondocks. There was NOTHING there, and it was far from D.C.. I had worked on a United airlines project while at Marquette, I was flying on 707's, I still didn't get it. Building something worthwhile takes time and many here don't understand long term strategy.
Villanova has been building their program for decades. Marquette is just starting, yes, Wojo has had a few false starts with Wisconsin in state recruiting, he has learned his lesson.
My takeaway from last night was watching the Villanova second string play. Jay Wright was giving us a look at the future. All things being equal, I think our first line would beat their second line.
Opportunistic short term thinking has put Marquette in its current position. Only long term stratigic thinking will solve the problem. Plan #2, magical thinking, bring back Buzz or Buzz #2.
This post was an absolute roller coaster ride of crazy!
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
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Not bad enough to fire.
Not good enough to keep around.
Mediocrity.
I don’t want to ignore MU hoops but it has been easy to do the past few years.
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
We have seen this before though. What are the chances those 3 will be on the team next year? Or 2022-3?
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We have seen this before though. What are the chances those 3 will be on the team next year? Or 2022-3?
They don't come from the Wisconsin basketball underground. I am very optimistic that they are keepers. The question is, is Marquette really a winner?
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They don't come from the Wisconsin basketball underground. I am very optimistic that they are keepers. The question is, is Marquette really a winner?
Love the optimism. Hope you are right. Just dont make excuses when you are proven wrong.
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Excluding an incredible run throughout the second half of the season, I think the pressure will be massive on the school to move on from Wojo and not waste more years on a program spiraling into mediocrity.
I don’t think the pressure on the school is “massive”, or will be by any stretch.
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Is Marquette a university with a basketball team?
Is Marquette a basketball team with a university?
Does Marquette identify with UNLV, University of Southern Mississippi, the University of South Florida or Duke, Northwestern, Princeton, or Bucknell?
Perhaps before WOJO moves on I should move on.
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
An extension with a much smaller buyout so his contract was basically a series of one-year deals. I'd be all for that extension.
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An extension with a much smaller buyout so his contract was basically a series of one-year deals. I'd be all for that extension.
You think the prospects advisors would miss the termination for convenience ploy?
This thinking is back to short term sharp practice. How about a longer term strategic plan.
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You think the prospects advisors would miss the termination for convenience ploy?
This thinking is back to short term sharp practice. How about a longer term strategic plan.
What the heck are you even talking about? Next year will be Wojo’s eighth season. Only Crean has had a longer tenure at MU since Al.
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
This post sort of epitomizes the endless loop of mediocrity we’ve been in under wojo. Always just “one more year” away from wojo filling in the missing pieces around the core players. Player development is not always a linear process either. Take promising top 100 recruit Haanif Cheatham for example. Thought we had a good one there but unfortunately his best ball was played in his freshman year and he was completely lost by the time he left MU. To Wojos credit though, he does have several players who have developed nicely (Anim, John, etc).
Isn’t the talk of “extending” wojo kind of irrelevant also? I would think MU is smart enough to always “extend” Wojos contract so that it won’t make for a competitive disadvantage on the recruiting front. Nothing more, nothing less.
Would agree with Brewcity on the lower buyout, but that seems like the obvious thing to do and the competence of the people making that decision should be seriously questioned if that is not the case.
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I see it as TEAM development, not player development.
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I see it as TEAM development, not player development.
When would we be getting some of that team development?
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The problem is you want to see an inexperienced head coach grow each year, learning from the past mistakes etc. You want to get better. Buzz was smart to bring in ex head coaches to help as assistants. That was good. Wojo should do the same. Why not?
We need to see movement in the right direction. As a squeaky-clean rep of the university, he excels.
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What the heck are you even talking about? Next year will be Wojo’s eighth season. Only Crean has had a longer tenure at MU since Al.
I'm talking about his playing in the Wisconsin basketball underground and getting screwed.
Marquette is a national university, in my view it should be more an international university, and should not depend on Wisconsin recruits.
I see that WOJO learned his lesson, no attribution neededd. So lets go forward and play our new hand and build a national program.
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
Garcia has one year left because he's so thin. Wasn't it pretty public Carton wants to go pro after this year no matter what?
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I was actually surprised by the number of football coaches that were fired this year. I thought, given the pandemic, most schools would be looking to tightening the spending and look to avoid any unnecessary costs (i.e. coaching buyouts). There have been seven official firings thus far (there were nine last year). There were 16 basketball firings in the Spring, even during a pandemic, which was also higher than I would have imagined.
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I was actually surprised by the number of football coaches that were fired this year. I thought, given the pandemic, most schools would be looking to tightening the spending and look to avoid any unnecessary costs (i.e. coaching buyouts). There have been seven official firings thus far (there were nine last year). There were 16 basketball firings in the Spring, even during a pandemic, which was also higher than I would have imagined.
Interesting information, thank you.
Not to get political, but, the age of high turnover, management by firing has passed.
Normality, stability, investing in development has returned and it will be obvious in sports and corporations.
Behaviours follow leadership.
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This post sort of epitomizes the endless loop of mediocrity we’ve been in under wojo. Always just “one more year” away from wojo filling in the missing pieces around the core players. Player development is not always a linear process either. Take promising top 100 recruit Haanif Cheatham for example. Thought we had a good one there but unfortunately his best ball was played in his freshman year and he was completely lost by the time he left MU. To Wojos credit though, he does have several players who have developed nicely (Anim, John, etc).
Isn’t the talk of “extending” wojo kind of irrelevant also? I would think MU is smart enough to always “extend” Wojos contract so that it won’t make for a competitive disadvantage on the recruiting front. Nothing more, nothing less.
Would agree with Brewcity on the lower buyout, but that seems like the obvious thing to do and the competence of the people making that decision should be seriously questioned if that is not the case.
Im not convinced we're in a loop of mediocrity. Wojo has had two recruiting cycles. His second was better than his first. Not by as much as I wanted or expected, but unquestionably better. If this cycle is better than the second one, it will have taken longer than I want but I'll be happy.
Also, IIRC Haanif was better as a sophomore. He just had much better teammates around him so he had less opportunity.
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Convince him to recruit more switchables.
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An extension with a much smaller buyout so his contract was basically a series of one-year deals. I'd be all for that extension.
I think that happens no matter what. If he makes the tournament comfortably or has a run in march I think he gets a normal extension.
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Several thoughts on this whole subject.
1) Here we go again -- Lose a few and we want Wojo sacked. We somehow think the magic bullet that will get us back to College basketball elite is out there just waiting to be called. Let's wait until the end of the year for this discussion and no I don't think the magic bullet is out there.
2) Expectations -- When the season started, most of us knew there would be games like UCLA, Okey State, Villanova, Xavier and Seton Hall. We were going to lose some we probably shouldn't lose and win some (Wisconsin and Creighton) we probably should not win. We're certainly on track for that. Villanova was one we all wanted to win but, realistically, was going to tough.
3) Firing -- Marquette WILL NOT fire Wojo at the end of this year. With a $45 million budget deficit and elimination of programs in the College of Arts and Sciences, they simply don't have the money to pay his buyout. Can you imagine the uproar among the faculty if Marquette must pay Wojo a cool couple of million for being terminated? It would not be pretty and would start us down the road toward becoming DePaul North. The damage to the basketball program for firing Wojo would rival anything Jean Lenti-Ponsetto ever did to men's basketball at DePaul.
4) Freshmen -- Folks, the core of our team (Carton, Garcia and Lewis) all are or effectively are freshmen. Defense comes slowly to freshmen (Michael Jordan being the exception). We already have seen some of the good that our freshmen can do as a team but defense is learned. For those of you who don't believe me, go dig up Dean Smith's autobiography, A Coach's Life, and read the section on Jordan. Hint: We don't have a Michael Jordan on this team. Perhaps a good thing will be we're going to have Garcia and Lewis for at least three years and Carton for at least two based on what I've seen so far.
5) Rotations -- I'm of the view, from my days watching the Redneck's teams, that a college basketball team has to be at least eight and likely 10 deep. The last three would be role players but you need to have those guys. We have a seven deep, maybe, stretching it, eight deep rotation. Fields and Oso are developmental projects that will be good in a few years. I'm a little disappointed in Oso so far, but that may be my expectations and not the coaches. I honestly believe we're running out of gas in the second half against teams that are deeper and maybe stronger than us.
6) Close but... -- We have been close a number of times. But... for Henry leaving a year earlier than expected. But for... Hausershima, we'd probably be in much better shape than we are. All of this, of course, is on Wojo and the problem is we all have long memories and high-powered expectations. The Hausers, Chetham, Henry, Markus, Garcia and Lewis all show Coach Wojo can recruit at a high level. The challenge is keeping these folks in the fold and, most importantly, developing them in a way that leads us to being a leader in the Big East.
Look, we have the makings of a good team for a couple of years. The challenge will be whether we can sustain high-level recruiting for the next couple of years so we have the balance that has escaped us. You have to ask with massive transfers whether firing Coach Wojo will also chase off the core of what could be a very good team?
We don't want NO Depauls in Milwaukee!!!!!
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Several thoughts on this whole subject.
1) Here we go again -- Lose a few and we want Wojo sacked. We somehow think the magic bullet that will get us back to College basketball elite is out there just waiting to be called. Let's wait until the end of the year for this discussion and no I don't think the magic bullet is out there.
2) Expectations -- When the season started, most of us knew there would be games like UCLA, Okey State, Villanova, Xavier and Seton Hall. We were going to lose some we probably shouldn't lose and win some (Wisconsin and Creighton) we probably should not win. We're certainly on track for that. Villanova was one we all wanted to win but, realistically, was going to tough.
3) Firing -- Marquette WILL NOT fire Wojo at the end of this year. With a $45 million budget deficit and elimination of programs in the College of Arts and Sciences, they simply don't have the money to pay his buyout. Can you imagine the uproar among the faculty if Marquette must pay Wojo a cool couple of million for being terminated? It would not be pretty and would start us down the road toward becoming DePaul North. The damage to the basketball program for firing Wojo would rival anything Jean Lenti-Ponsetto ever did to men's basketball at DePaul.
4) Freshmen -- Folks, the core of our team (Carton, Garcia and Lewis) all are or effectively are freshmen. Defense comes slowly to freshmen (Michael Jordan being the exception). We already have seen some of the good that our freshmen can do as a team but defense is learned. For those of you who don't believe me, go dig up Dean Smith's autobiography, A Coach's Life, and read the section on Jordan. Hint: We don't have a Michael Jordan on this team. Perhaps a good thing will be we're going to have Garcia and Lewis for at least three years and Carton for at least two based on what I've seen so far.
5) Rotations -- I'm of the view, from my days watching the Redneck's teams, that a college basketball team has to be at least eight and likely 10 deep. The last three would be role players but you need to have those guys. We have a seven deep, maybe, stretching it, eight deep rotation. Fields and Oso are developmental projects that will be good in a few years. I'm a little disappointed in Oso so far, but that may be my expectations and not the coaches. I honestly believe we're running out of gas in the second half against teams that are deeper and maybe stronger than us.
6) Close but... -- We have been close a number of times. But... for Henry leaving a year earlier than expected. But for... Hausershima, we'd probably be in much better shape than we are. All of this, of course, is on Wojo and the problem is we all have long memories and high-powered expectations. The Hausers, Chetham, Henry, Markus, Garcia and Lewis all show Coach Wojo can recruit at a high level. The challenge is keeping these folks in the fold and, most importantly, developing them in a way that leads us to being a leader in the Big East.
Look, we have the makings of a good team for a couple of years. The challenge will be whether we can sustain high-level recruiting for the next couple of years so we have the balance that has escaped us. You have to ask with massive transfers whether firing Coach Wojo will also chase off the core of what could be a very good team?
We don't want NO Depauls in Milwaukee!!!!!
but now in year 7, nothing changes. Same mistakes game in game out. Same year-end results. It simply does not take this long to develop a program that is capable of a 1st rd ncaa tourney win.
Look at it this way... In the private sector, any of us produce Wojo-like results, we’d be toast.
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We have seen this before though. What are the chances those 3 will be on the team next year? Or 2022-3?
That is a question we will have to ask ourselves a annually moving forward. With the year in residence being eliminated we’re entering free agency in college hoops and poaching is going to run rampant. Add in NIL and it’s going to become a bidding war to encourage transfers.
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Ask again after the season. I think we'll turn it around over the next 10 games. We'll be favored in 7 of the next 10 and 11 of the remaining 16.
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In the private sector, any of us produce Wojo-like results, we’d be toast.
So your contention is that if your company is among the 350 largest in the nation, and it consistently performs in the top 50-75 of that group, its CEO would be "toast"? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Don't read the above as blind support of Wojo. I am quite disappointed with the coaching in several games in what I considered to be a show-me season.
But I underline "season" there. It's not a show-me 10 games. So I'm willing to wait and see what happens over these next 2-3 (hopefully 3 full) months.
Buzz was smart to bring in ex head coaches to help as assistants. That was good. Wojo should do the same. Why not?
He has brought in Rob Judson, who was a highly respected assistant at Illinois and then was head coach at Northern. Not sure what his role is exactly, and sure, could bring in more.
But most ex-head coaches who want to stay in the game and who were any good find head coaching jobs elsewhere.
I'm not convinced we're in a loop of mediocrity. Wojo has had two recruiting cycles. His second was better than his first. Not by as much as I wanted or expected, but unquestionably better. If this cycle is better than the second one, it will have taken longer than I want but I'll be happy.
Hmmm ... maybe. But it's Year 7, TAMU. Time to win bigger than we have. One 20-win season? Never winning more than one BET game in a season? Zero NCAA tournament wins, with blowout losses in his two games?
Can't MU wait one more year to consider an extension? Even after next season, he'll have 2 years remaining. That's not crazy-short. But if we do feel we need to extend after this season, I agree with others with the idea of a short extension with a lower buyout.
If he bristles at that, he can go elsewhere.
All of the above is predicated on my expectations that we get into the tourney as a 10 or 11 seed and then lose our first game. If something clicks and the team significantly outperforms those expectations, or if the wheels fall off and the car crashes, we're talking about very different considerations.
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Im not convinced we're in a loop of mediocrity. Wojo has had two recruiting cycles. His second was better than his first. Not by as much as I wanted or expected, but unquestionably better. If this cycle is better than the second one, it will have taken longer than I want but I'll be happy.
Also, IIRC Haanif was better as a sophomore. He just had much better teammates around him so he had less opportunity.
We have 4 players on our roster who were recruited in the three years prior to this one: Theo, Cain, Elliot and Symir. The 3 seniors have all shown nice development this year but would any of them (until this year) been solid rotation players (let alone starters) on an upper tier P6 team? Theo as a backup, maybe. The other two - no way. Symir would get nothing more than garbage minutes. There is potential among our younger players, but in a season when you return zero impact players and zero (or possibly one) guy who would start (as a senior only) on a solid P6 team you’re going to struggle. It’s not that we’re young. It’s that our experience is mediocre and what I hope proves to be our talent is inexperienced.
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Lenny,
The upperclassman do not play any significant minutes at any top 20 program. I am happy they improved and wish them the best. Wojo has to fill in the pieces with far better basketball players. To me it is quite simple, better players or better coaching. I do think the three new guys can be players and are building blocks for the future, but he needs to add 3-4 basketball players for next season.
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I thought we had a few folks with inside knowledge here. Not a single Scooper knows what Wojo's buyout is?
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Several thoughts on this whole subject.
1) Here we go again -- Lose a few and we want Wojo sacked. We somehow think the magic bullet that will get us back to College basketball elite is out there just waiting to be called. Let's wait until the end of the year for this discussion and no I don't think the magic bullet is out there.
2) Expectations -- When the season started, most of us knew there would be games like UCLA, Okey State, Villanova, Xavier and Seton Hall. We were going to lose some we probably shouldn't lose and win some (Wisconsin and Creighton) we probably should not win. We're certainly on track for that. Villanova was one we all wanted to win but, realistically, was going to tough.
3) Firing -- Marquette WILL NOT fire Wojo at the end of this year. With a $45 million budget deficit and elimination of programs in the College of Arts and Sciences, they simply don't have the money to pay his buyout. Can you imagine the uproar among the faculty if Marquette must pay Wojo a cool couple of million for being terminated? It would not be pretty and would start us down the road toward becoming DePaul North. The damage to the basketball program for firing Wojo would rival anything Jean Lenti-Ponsetto ever did to men's basketball at DePaul.
4) Freshmen -- Folks, the core of our team (Carton, Garcia and Lewis) all are or effectively are freshmen. Defense comes slowly to freshmen (Michael Jordan being the exception). We already have seen some of the good that our freshmen can do as a team but defense is learned. For those of you who don't believe me, go dig up Dean Smith's autobiography, A Coach's Life, and read the section on Jordan. Hint: We don't have a Michael Jordan on this team. Perhaps a good thing will be we're going to have Garcia and Lewis for at least three years and Carton for at least two based on what I've seen so far.
5) Rotations -- I'm of the view, from my days watching the Redneck's teams, that a college basketball team has to be at least eight and likely 10 deep. The last three would be role players but you need to have those guys. We have a seven deep, maybe, stretching it, eight deep rotation. Fields and Oso are developmental projects that will be good in a few years. I'm a little disappointed in Oso so far, but that may be my expectations and not the coaches. I honestly believe we're running out of gas in the second half against teams that are deeper and maybe stronger than us.
6) Close but... -- We have been close a number of times. But... for Henry leaving a year earlier than expected. But for... Hausershima, we'd probably be in much better shape than we are. All of this, of course, is on Wojo and the problem is we all have long memories and high-powered expectations. The Hausers, Chetham, Henry, Markus, Garcia and Lewis all show Coach Wojo can recruit at a high level. The challenge is keeping these folks in the fold and, most importantly, developing them in a way that leads us to being a leader in the Big East.
Look, we have the makings of a good team for a couple of years. The challenge will be whether we can sustain high-level recruiting for the next couple of years so we have the balance that has escaped us. You have to ask with massive transfers whether firing Coach Wojo will also chase off the core of what could be a very good team?
We don't want NO Depauls in Milwaukee!!!!!
Great analysis. I would throw in the unexpected departure of Bailey threw a wrench in things this year. Like you said it’s on Wojo to not just get the pieces but keep the pieces in place. To think this years starting squad could have been:
PG: Carton
SG: Koby
SF: J. Hauser
PF: Bailey
C: Theo
With Cain, Lewis, Garcia, Sy, and Elliot coming off the pine. That’s the 10 deep rotational talent we need to get and keep together.
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The Best scenario for all involved is for Wojo to put up another season this year roughly similar to years past. That should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school. I think Wojo would leap at any reasonable offer especially something out West where his wife is from.
We then promote Coach Killings to Head Coach, he will be in a strong position to retain the young players and recruits.
I thought this scenario would have played out last year( with Stan taking over), but Covid hit.
It is a win win win scenario. Wojo moves to a new program which will give him a long leash. Our new youthful coach has a team full of kids he played a major role in recruiting. The University is net ahead financially as they would get some proceeds for Wojo's buyout.
The key to all of this is that Wojo needs to put up a winning season.
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Great analysis. I would throw in the unexpected departure of Bailey threw a wrench in things this year. Like you said it’s on Wojo to not just get the pieces but keep the pieces in place. To think this years starting squad could have been:
PG: Carton
SG: Koby
SF: J. Hauser
PF: Bailey
C: Theo
With Cain, Lewis, Garcia, Sy, and Elliot coming off the pine. That’s the 10 deep rotational talent we need to get and keep together.
IIRC, many who are into recruiting said Garcia wouldn't have gone to MU had Baby Hauser been here.
The Best scenario for all involved is for Wojo to put up another season this year roughly similar to years past. That should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school. I think Wojo would leap at any reasonable offer especially something out West where his wife is from.
We then promote Coach Killings to Head Coach, he will be in a strong position to retain the young players and recruits.
I thought this scenario would have played out last year( with Stan taking over), but Covid hit.
It is a win win win scenario. Wojo moves to a new program which will give him a long leash. Our new youthful coach has a team full of kids he played a major role in recruiting. The University is net ahead financially as they would get some proceeds for Wojo's buyout.
The key to all of this is that Wojo needs to put up a winning season.
It's only a "win win win scenario" if Killings can coach. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. I don't know, neither do you. What we do know is that his resume is even thinner than Wojo's was.
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IIRC, many who are into recruiting said Garcia wouldn't have gone to MU had Baby Hauser been here.
It's only a "win win win scenario" if Killings can coach. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. I don't know, neither do you. What we do know is that his resume is even thinner than Wojo's was.
Ya that’s a good point.
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The way for MU to be really good is to get old. By that I mean not depending on newcomers so much. One of Wojo's problems has been to many transfers out, which keeps the team from getting old. I am not in favor of firing Wojo now, but would be if our good young players elected to transfer.
I do believe the free agency in transfers is going to hurt MU more than it will help.
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The Best scenario for all involved is for Wojo to put up another season this year roughly similar to years past. That should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school. I think Wojo would leap at any reasonable offer especially something out West where his wife is from.
We then promote Coach Killings to Head Coach, he will be in a strong position to retain the young players and recruits.
I thought this scenario would have played out last year( with Stan taking over), but Covid hit.
It is a win win win scenario. Wojo moves to a new program which will give him a long leash. Our new youthful coach has a team full of kids he played a major role in recruiting. The University is net ahead financially as they would get some proceeds for Wojo's buyout.
The key to all of this is that Wojo needs to put up a winning season.
Unless he has a good run in the Tournament this year and strings together a couple consecutive good seasons, I think the ship has sailed on a P6 school poaching Wojo. The sample size of mediocrity is just too large at this point.
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He has brought in Rob Judson, who was a highly respected assistant at Illinois and then was head coach at Northern. Not sure what his role is exactly, and sure, could bring in more.
But most ex-head coaches who want to stay in the game and who were any good find head coaching jobs elsewhere.
With all due respect, this is kind of the problem for me. Judson was a respected assistant...20 years ago. And then an objectively bad HC. His career since leaving U of I was so mediocre that he was a Director of Ops 30 years into his career. Not exactly Wojo leveraging a Duke/USA basketball network to get someone with great experience and needed help on his bench.
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Wojo needs a 1 year extension for recruiting purposes only. Should give him a $0 buyout, with the condition of earn it if you want to stay.
Don't like it? Let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out.
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but now in year 7, nothing changes. Same mistakes game in game out. Same year-end results. It simply does not take this long to develop a program that is capable of a 1st rd ncaa tourney win.
Look at it this way... In the private sector, any of us produce Wojo-like results, we’d be toast.
Brother Marq:
You have to recognize the element of sunk cost. You have to look at the "here and now" and consider where we are and the direction we're heading, not where we have been. I agree with Brother Goose, in part, that we've got the core of a very good team. If we hold it together and recruit atop it, w3e will be dynamite.
Brother Goose is generally right about past talent and about the older members of our team. My view is the exception would be Koby McEwen, who I think he's great now that he is freed from the Markus-dominated offense. But we have to build and hope Oso and Lewis are the real things.
I'll say it again: In these financially trying times, chasing our coach off would be the death-knell of college basketball at Marquette. If Marquette had to pay out his severance, the riot among faculty members would be earth-shattering. The university, already cheap because of the baby bust that's coming, would retreat into the same college basketball cheapness cocoon they did in the 1980s. The issue of basketball's role on campus will be debated (it already is to some degree and the old question of who is the highest paid employee of Marquette University has resurfaced) and some will call for the abolishment of it because it is inconsistent with a Jesuit Catholic mission.
Combine that with a spreading apathy and loss of revenue and the results will stink. Can you say M-i-d M-a-j-o-r?????
Look, basketball is a big part of what has made Marquette what it is today. Whether pro or nojo, we're stuck for a few years. The potential liabilities of terminating a coach now, including loss of major players, is huge and something I don't want to go through. And, I'm certainly not throwing a coach overboard before the New Year in the current season.
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9156 you've twice mentioned player "Fields" Does he go by another name?
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With all due respect, this is kind of the problem for me. Judson was a respected assistant...20 years ago. And then an objectively bad HC. His career since leaving U of I was so mediocre that he was a Director of Ops 30 years into his career. Not exactly Wojo leveraging a Duke/USA basketball network to get someone with great experience and needed help on his bench.
Yeah, Director of Basketball Operations is the type of job they give a guy like Todd Townshend who just wants to hang around the program while he decides what he wants to do with his life. Think Diener did it for a couple years, too.
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I'm talking about his playing in the Wisconsin basketball underground and getting screwed.
Marquette is a national university, in my view it should be more an international university, and should not depend on Wisconsin recruits.
I see that WOJO learned his lesson, no attribution neededd. So lets go forward and play our new hand and build a national program.
Vogue I like your 10,000 foot view of things and I hope it’s not a mirage. The view from 5,000 feet doesn’t look so pretty. I’ve used this analogy before four years ago when the fire Wojo talk started. I agree we need a strategic plan and stick to it. But if he doesn’t show some promise this year with this group of athletes he can no long be part of the strategic plan. They are good enough to be in the NCAA this year and be dominant next year if they stay. This is make or break time for Wojo. If the University feels otherwise then the long term strategic plan is flawed.
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If MU doesn’t win an NCAA game this year, this would be the second longest stretch of years in MU’s history (8 years, record is 11) between NCAA victories.
I believe he’s 100% coming back, not saying that’s what I personally want, but there’s little chance the university is in position financially to buy him out and then invest in a new hire and staff.
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Brother Marq:
You have to recognize the element of sunk cost. You have to look at the "here and now" and consider where we are and the direction we're heading, not where we have been. I agree with Brother Goose, in part, that we've got the core of a very good team. If we hold it together and recruit atop it, w3e will be dynamite.
Brother Goose is generally right about past talent and about the older members of our team. My view is the exception would be Koby McEwen, who I think he's great now that he is freed from the Markus-dominated offense. But we have to build and hope Oso and Fields are the real things.
I'll say it again: In these financially trying times, chasing our coach off would be the death-knell of college basketball at Marquette. If Marquette had to pay out his severance, the riot among faculty members would be earth-shattering. The university, already cheap because of the baby bust that's coming, would retreat into the same college basketball cheapness cocoon they did in the 1980s. The issue of basketball's role on campus will be debated (it already is to some degree and the old question of who is the highest paid employee of Marquette University has resurfaced) and some will call for the abolishment of it because it is inconsistent with a Jesuit Catholic mission.
Combine that with a spreading apathy and loss of revenue and the results will stink. Can you say M-i-d M-a-j-o-r?????
Look, basketball is a big part of what has made Marquette what it is today. Whether pro or nojo, we're stuck for a few years. The potential liabilities of terminating a coach now, including loss of major players, is huge and something I don't want to go through. And, I'm certainly not throwing a coach overboard before the New Year in the current season.
Brother dgies,
If we are indeed hanging by a thread and the loss of an average (at best) coach relegates us to mid major status indefinitely then Buzz was dead right (prescient, even) to get out when he did.
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
And if he doesn't make the tourney? Same answer, give him an extension
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He isn't going to be fired this year, barring scandal. He is what the BOT wants, he earned bonus points in how he got in front of supporting his players during the BLM, he has managed the COVID stuff as an adult, he has represented the university well, he has recruited well.
But eventually, the results of all of his good work needs to show up on the floor.
And when does eventually happen?
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And when does eventually happen?
Just send your $6 million gift to the University and it may start the wheels moving or it may be a down payment for a new basketball facility.
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If we make the tournament this season he should be given an extension. If we make the tourney this season, we will be earning high seeds for the next few years as DJ, Justin, and Garcia grow.
Will not be back. Screen shot this one folks
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Will not be back. Screen shot this one folks
You're definitely not the first person who's said this. I really like Carton's game, but even if he has a studly rest of his season, he *might* be a second round pick this summer. Why is there so much smoke about him turning pro? Guy needs another year of development if he wants to be a surefire draft pick.
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You're definitely not the first person who's said this. I really like Carton's game, but even if he has a studly rest of his season, he *might* be a second round pick this summer. Why is there so much smoke about him turning pro? Guy needs another year of development if he wants to be a surefire draft pick.
I can’t believe he’d get picked. He has a long way to go in every area. Plus he’s small.
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Take this for what it’s worth, and I’m sure I’ll eat s**t on this comment.
Lovell wants to ride his horse for better or worse, but not everyone feels the same.
Curious if anyone else has heard similar remarks?
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Brother dgies,
If we are indeed hanging by a thread and the loss of an average (at best) coach relegates us to mid major status indefinitely then Buzz was dead right (prescient, even) to get out when he did.
Brother Lenny:
Sadly, maybe.
I'm trying to look at things strategically. It isn't so much the loss of a coach, but the cost of getting rid of him at a time when revenue is extremely precious and Marquette has a number of conflicting priorities. Quite frankly, if we ever needed basketball to be good with what it has, now is the time for it to do so.
I've said many times that without basketball, God only knows where Marquette would be. Many of the campus improvements dating to the late 1970s were made with McGuire Money -- the funds generated by a strong visibility of a great basketball program. We're a better university when the team is really good. But I really am not sure the current administration sees basketball that way. I suspect they view it as more a headache, albeit a profitable headache.
Again, we have to give Coach Wojo the season to see how things develop. I'm not wedded to him until death do us part, but I want to see what he can do with the talent he has.
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And if he doesn't make the tourney? Same answer, give him an extension
Actually if you've been paying attention I've said repeatedly that in a non-COVID year he should be fired if we make the NIT or worse. Unfortunately, it is a COVID year and I don't see the university making a change due to their current financial situation. I would expect that Wojo does get extended in that situation (to preserve recruiting) but the buyout gets renegotiated to a more manageable amount as others have suggested.
Fortunately, I don't expect we will need to have this conversation. I still think this team is making the tourney.
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Will not be back. Screen shot this one folks
I heard that months ago. I hear that less now. Maybe still ends up being the case.
Take this for what it’s worth, and I’m sure I’ll eat s**t on this comment.
Lovell wants to ride his horse for better or worse, but not everyone feels the same.
Curious if anyone else has heard similar remarks?
First part, can't say I've heard. I think he's more patient than scoopers but its not unlimited. Second part, depends on who is included in everyone.
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Brother Lenny:
Sadly, maybe.
I'm trying to look at things strategically. It isn't so much the loss of a coach, but the cost of getting rid of him at a time when revenue is extremely precious and Marquette has a number of conflicting priorities. Quite frankly, if we ever needed basketball to be good with what it has, now is the time for it to do so.
I've said many times that without basketball, God only knows where Marquette would be. Many of the campus improvements dating to the late 1970s were made with McGuire Money -- the funds generated by a strong visibility of a great basketball program. We're a better university when the team is really good. But I really am not sure the current administration sees basketball that way. I suspect they view it as more a headache, albeit a profitable headache.
Again, we have to give Coach Wojo the season to see how things develop. I'm not wedded to him until death do us part, but I want to see what he can do with the talent he has.
Fair enough, Brother dgies. Merry Christmas!
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You're definitely not the first person who's said this. I really like Carton's game, but even if he has a studly rest of his season, he *might* be a second round pick this summer. Why is there so much smoke about him turning pro? Guy needs another year of development if he wants to be a surefire draft pick.
Development doesn't happen at the college level. It's not 1987. Guys are consistently being picked up earlier and earlier to compete in the minor NBA league.
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Development doesn't happen at the college level. It's not 1987. Guys are consistently being picked up earlier and earlier to compete in the minor NBA league.
For the sake of everyone who's calling this a "down year" and slurping up every last drop of what the next two years will bring if DJ, Dawson, and Lewis all stay at MU, I hope you're wrong.
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For the sake of everyone who's calling this a "down year" and slurping up every last drop of what the next two years will bring if DJ, Dawson, and Lewis all stay at MU, I hope you're wrong.
Sorry not to confuse the argument of people get better the older they get with the "if someone wants to go to the NBA stay in college" argument
Mine is completely about the later. There are still a lot of people who believe (in my professional opinion wrongly) that staying in college some how makes you more appetizing to the NBA.
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0% Chance DJ is back
15% Chance Dawson is back
35% Justin is back
People talking about Henry coming back. Lol. He was a lottery player when he arrived. Kids want to leave. That’s reality. You gotta win now. You gotta coach em up fast.
This is the year. Now. Make some hay.
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Covid is Woj's friend, hey?
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Fair enough, Brother dgies. Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to you as well, Brother Lenny. I hope Santa was good to you!
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0% Chance DJ is back
15% Chance Dawson is back
35% Justin is back
People talking about Henry coming back. Lol. He was a lottery player when he arrived. Kids want to leave. That’s reality. You gotta win now. You gotta coach em up fast.
This is the year. Now. Make some hay.
Henry averaged 17 and 10, and had 18 double-doubles. Anyone who watched MU that year could see him just oozing with potential, and clearly the best player on our team.
Which of the three you mentioned is remotely close to that, or even trending in that direction? With them, we see clear talent and potential, but it is interspersed with periods where they disappear and are outshined by guys like Koby and Jamal. That virtually never happened with Henry.
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Lewis isn't a pro yet. But if free transfers are allowed next year, I wouldn't be surprised if any of them leave for a better situation.
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Covid is Woj's friend, hey?
I actually think your comment is true. MU will not show him the door after this season. The University has some significant financial issues and right now he is not at the top of the list.
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As to Henry, my recall is that if he had stayed the the following year's draft did not set up well for him as there promised to be a slew of more talented prospects. He did better in a weak draft following his freshman year.
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Lewis isn't a pro yet. But if free transfers are allowed next year, I wouldn't be surprised if any of them leave for a better situation.
What is "better" than being a big-minute player on a potentially very good team? Starting over somewhere else with no guarantee of anything?
Why do folks think more transfers will leave than arrive if things are opened up? Did Wojo not just land what most basketball experts call one of the top-3 transfers available?
Aside from the Hausers, who were a special circumstance, what impact transfer has Wojo lost in all his time here? One (Burton), who himself was a special circumstance if some are to be believed; or maybe two (Cheatham), if one is very generous about the term "impact." One could easily argue that Koby has been a better P6 player than Cheatham was ever going to be. Time will tell if DJ is better than Burton (though they are so different the comparison will be difficult bordering on impossible).
I am disappointed and frustrated that we aren't better under Wojo, but I don't think it helps anything to make exaggerations about him.
0% Chance DJ is back
15% Chance Dawson is back
35% Justin is back
Not sure how you arrive at your percentages, Lens. But you're offering opinions, which is what Scoop is for.
DJ -- Yes, it sure seemed the consensus during the recruiting process was that he was only going to commit to college for the 2020-21 season. The word was that if he didn't receive a waiver, he was just going to go pro. I have not seen any updates, and I certainly have not seen him or any of his "people" quoted as to what his plans are.
Garcia and/or Lewis -- I would be quite surprised if either decided to end his college career after this season, but like most of us, I've been surprised a few times over the years, most recently by Bailey. Could Garcia and/or Lewis transfer? As I said in my response to MUfan12, I see no reason either would be motivated to do that. Wojo certainly seems to value both of them; he plays them plenty, he likely will play them even more next season, and they aren't being recruited over.
Obviously, none of these guys is within a zillion miles of being ready for the NBA. However, for so many players, that's not the most important factor. Are they getting good advice? Do they have a realistic view of their talent level and/or readiness or are they overly confident? Do they like the college experience? Do they like the Marquette basketball experience? Are their family members and others in their circle of influence pushing them to turn pro (or to transfer or, for that matter, to stay)?
I mean, think about Vander. He simply didn't want to be in college any more, and he had confidence in his ability. So even though he knew he wouldn't be a first-round draft pick, and very well wouldn't be picked at all, and knew he would have been part of a top-10 team if he stayed ... despite all that, he said buh-bye. Could DJ or Dawson do the exact same? Maybe.
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Henry averaged 17 and 10, and had 18 double-doubles. Anyone who watched MU that year could see him just oozing with potential, and clearly the best player on our team.
Which of the three you mentioned is remotely close to that, or even trending in that direction? With them, we see clear talent and potential, but it is interspersed with periods where they disappear and are outshined by guys like Koby and Jamal. That virtually never happened with Henry.
But these kids get into Team USA, All American games and certain AAU situations and they see friends go, so they go.
It’s mit should they go, it’s so they think they should go. DJ & Dawson have trafficked in the world of early entry. They’ve seen their name on draft boards. Believe me, it’s 100% in the conversation.
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Lewis isn't a pro yet. But if free transfers are allowed next year, I wouldn't be surprised if any of them leave for a better situation.
Agree - if free transfers are allowed, it will be a revolving door at every program. Imagine the NBA if every player became an unrestricted free agent at the same time....
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But these kids get into Team USA, All American games and certain AAU situations and they see friends go, so they go.
It’s mit should they go, it’s so they think they should go. DJ & Dawson have trafficked in the world of early entry. They’ve seen their name on draft boards. Believe me, it’s 100% in the conversation.
I don't doubt it's in the conversation. I just thought your comparison to Henry was off-base. Henry left based on actual in-game performance throughout an entire season, not just potential, a couple of great games and conversations with friends.
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Agree - if free transfers are allowed, it will be a revolving door at every program. Imagine the NBA if every player became an unrestricted free agent at the same time....
That's what I was getting at.
MU82- I should have said what they perceive as a better situation. College kids aren't always rational.
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That's what I was getting at.
MU82- I should have said what they perceive as a better situation. College kids aren't always rational.
Yessir. Totally agree with that!
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MU 82 you're one of the first I've read with what I believe to be true about Vander. Virtually everyone else posts that he received the wrong advice and was told he'd be drafted. I simply think he wanted to start getting paid to play basketball. I suspect Bailey was similar, a year or two older, and not about to increase his value by continuing college ball.
For scoopers to determine which of our guys are "ready' for the NBA is meaningless. There are opportunities to play for pay outside of the Association.
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NM
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MU 82 you're one of the first I've read with what I believe to be true about Vander. Virtually everyone else posts that he received the wrong advice and was told he'd be drafted. I simply think he wanted to start getting paid to play basketball. I suspect Bailey was similar, a year or two older, and not about to increase his value by continuing college ball.
For scoopers to determine which of our guys are "ready' for the NBA is meaningless. There are opportunities to play for pay outside of the Association.
I don’t think this is true. In fact, his coach and draft experts told him he was not ready and would probably not be drafted. I recall he stopped going to class, so he was gone.
Vander thought he was NBA ready. He had no intentions of playing in Europe, G-Leauge, or anywhere else....even if they were paying basketball jobs.
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The way for MU to be really good is to get old. By that I mean not depending on newcomers so much. One of Wojo's problems has been to many transfers out, which keeps the team from getting old. I am not in favor of firing Wojo now, but would be if our good young players elected to transfer.
I do believe the free agency in transfers is going to hurt MU more than it will help.
Bilsu
You are point on. In order to get dominant the team must get older, more mature, stronger and smarter. That's the key to Big Ten team successes. It can't be done with transfers in and out. Kids that only play one or two years.
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Nm
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I don’t think this is true. In fact, his coach and draft experts told him he was not ready and would probably not be drafted. I recall he stopped going to class, so he was gone.
Vander thought he was NBA ready. He had no intentions of playing in Europe, G-Leauge, or anywhere else....even if they were paying basketball jobs.
Re-read what I said, and your comment actually supports it.
Vander was done with college basketball. He had confidence in his ability. And it didn't matter to him that folks with knowledge told him he wouldn't get drafted.
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Re-read what I said, and your comment actually supports it.
Vander was done with college basketball. He had confidence in his ability. And it didn't matter to him that folks with knowledge told him he wouldn't get drafted.
I think I read an article that said even his mom begged him to stay in school.
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I don’t think this is true. In fact, his coach and draft experts told him he was not ready and would probably not be drafted. I recall he stopped going to class, so he was gone.
Vander thought he was NBA ready. He had no intentions of playing in Europe, G-Leauge, or anywhere else....even if they were paying basketball jobs.
I give Vander a lot of credit for staying true to his NBA dream. No matter how impractical his career decisions have been. His attitude was to reach for the stars.
Unfortunately, we now know how the dream ended up for Vander. Vanders detailed career story has been well chronicled several times in the major media. Vander had his chance in the NBA and for many different reasons it did not work out. Vander now is on the outside looking in, with very few opportunities anywhere on the planet to play basketball.
If I were advising Vander, I would tell him to go back to MU finish his degree and use that to get into the coaching end of the business .
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Some people see it as a dream, some see it as delusional. Humility is not easily taught, appreciated, understood or practiced.
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Re-read what I said, and your comment actually supports it.
Vander was done with college basketball. He had confidence in his ability. And it didn't matter to him that folks with knowledge told him he wouldn't get drafted.
I was responding to Franklin....which is why I quoted Franklin in my response.