So what's the guess on next year's starters? Based on what we know today with Carton in the fold and pending Mane's decision, here's my guess:
1 -- Koby
2 -- DJ Carton (if available)
3 -- Dawson Garcia
4 -- Brendan
5 -- THEO!!!!
The issue with this line-up is whether Karim Mane comes to MU. If he does, there's a battle between Koby, Carton and Mane over the two guard spots. With Dex and Symir in the mix as well as Greg, we may be extraordinarily deep at guard.
I also see Oso and Fields Lewis (oops) with significant minutes next year, especially if Brendan falters. About the only area where we may have some depth issues is at the "5" spot.
Big question: Can Wojo coach these guys to greatness? I sure hope so!
I'd see Carton starting at PG and McEwen as the starting 2. Otherwise I agree.
At least to start the season..
PG - Carton
SG - Greg
SF - Koby
PF - Bailey
C - Theo
I think eventually Bailey slides down to the 3, and Garcia into the 4 spot unless Koby remembers how to play basketball this offseason.
I see basically no scenerio where Koby is the primary PG next season. We've seen that movie, and it sucked.
Who is fields? Cain Akanno Lewis and Elliott don't seem close enough in auto correct for me to figure it out
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 17, 2020, 03:39:05 PM
Who is fields? Cain Akanno Lewis and Elliott don't seem close enough in auto correct for me to figure it out
This guy really likes to call Lewis Fields.
Why does dgies keep calling Justin Lewis "Justin Fields" instead? Because he likes the former Ohio State quarterback? I don't know...
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 17, 2020, 03:42:10 PM
Why?
Cuz of dis guy ...
https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4362887/justin-fields
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 03:56:59 PM
Why does dgies keep calling Justin Lewis "Justin Fields" instead? Because he likes the former Ohio State quarterback? I don't know...
Senility I guess
If Carton is eligible.
1 carton
2 Koby
3 bailey
4 Dawson
5 Theo
McEwen has no second gear, is an ok and streaky shooter at best (although excellent from the line), has a poor handle, and doesn't create.
So he's being penciled in by everyone as a starter why? Excuse he was playing out of position as PG, is just that. We didn't just watch a wet behind the ears freshman, 4th year junior, and he looked completely overmatched game in and game out.
He has to improve a ton to even deserve regular minutes in my opinion. If he's next seasons Ed Morrow, so be it.
Much more excited about Sy's potential and a healthy (hopefully) Elliott taking McEwen's minutes. We already have one huge upgrade over him in DJ. Mane or someone to join those two would also be nice.
Quote from: dgies9156 on April 17, 2020, 03:31:12 PM
So what's the guess on next year's starters? Based on what we know today with Carton in the fold and pending Mane's decision, here's my guess:
1 -- Koby
2 -- DJ Carton (if available)
3 -- Dawson Garcia
4 -- Brendan
5 -- THEO!!!!
The issue with this line-up is whether Karim Mane comes to MU. If he does, there's a battle between Koby, Carton and Mane over the two guard spots. With Dex and Symir in the mix as well as Greg, we may be extraordinarily deep at guard.
I also see Oso and Fields Lewis (oops) with significant minutes next year, especially if Brendan falters. About the only area where we may have some depth issues is at the "5" spot.
Big question: Can Wojo coach these guys to greatness? I sure hope so!
In response to your last paragraph, I hope so also, but...no.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 12:43:28 AM
If he's next seasons Ed Morrow, so be it.
What if he's next season's Trent Lockett? A "glue guy" who plays D, grabs rebounds, dives to the floor, takes pressure off the ballhandler when necessary, etc.
Maybe his ego won't let him do that ... but maybe it will, especially if Wojo handles it right.
A whole lot of Scoopers -- I'd say the majority of 'em -- were convinced that Lockett was garbage. Buzz disagreed, kept starting him (much to the chagrin of ScoopLand), and we went to the E8 with Lockett making a very nice contribution.
I'd argue that Koby is a better athlete than Lockett, a better defender, a better ballhandler and a better FT shooter.
Now, if Koby won't buy into being a role player, Wojo should bench him if, indeed, Koby isn't one of our 7-8 best players.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 12:43:28 AM
McEwen has no second gear, is an ok and streaky shooter at best (although excellent from the line), has a poor handle, and doesn't create.
So he's being penciled in by everyone as a starter why? Excuse he was playing out of position as PG, is just that. We didn't just watch a wet behind the ears freshman, 4th year junior, and he looked completely overmatched game in and game out.
He has to improve a ton to even deserve regular minutes in my opinion. If he's next seasons Ed Morrow, so be it.
Much more excited about Sy's potential and a healthy (hopefully) Elliott taking McEwen's minutes. We already have one huge upgrade over him in DJ. Mane or someone to join those two would also be nice.
Agreed
I would take a healthy greg over koby in a heartbeat
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 12:43:28 AM
McEwen has no second gear, is an ok and streaky shooter at best (although excellent from the line), has a poor handle, and doesn't create.
So he's being penciled in by everyone as a starter why? Excuse he was playing out of position as PG, is just that. We didn't just watch a wet behind the ears freshman, 4th year junior, and he looked completely overmatched game in and game out.
He has to improve a ton to even deserve regular minutes in my opinion. If he's next seasons Ed Morrow, so be it.
Much more excited about Sy's potential and a healthy (hopefully) Elliott taking McEwen's minutes. We already have one huge upgrade over him in DJ. Mane or someone to join those two would also be nice.
Greg Elliott is the new Joe Fulce: always hurt, which lead to a loss of athleticism and stunted skill development.
Symir Torrence's freshman year was a combination of Andrew Rowsey's defense and Derrick Wilson's offense. Ok, maybe not quite that bad, but close.
Dexter Akanno is a complete unknown.
Penciling any of these guys in to the starting lineup is a leap of faith. The starting SG spot is wide open, but McEwen is the early favorite.
Edit: not sure why I blanked on Rowsey's name. Andrew, not Aaron.
Agree with Hutch and Sand. Why do most feel Koby is a lock to start next season? He can't handle the ball and we have no reason to believe he can spot up and shoot as a 2 nor slash and finish at the hoop. Agree his strengths are rebounding for his size, defense and FT shooting.
Assuming Canton is with us, I believe he plays 30+ minutes per game, starting at PG and sliding to the 2 with Sy playing the point.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on April 18, 2020, 07:53:04 AM
Greg Elliott is the new Joe Fulce: always hurt, which lead to a loss of athleticism and stunted skill development.
Symir Torrence's freshman year was a combination of Aaron Rowsey's defense and Derrick Wilson's offense. Ok, maybe not quite that bad, but close.
Dexter Akanno is a complete unknown.
Penciling any of these guys in to the starting lineup is a leap of faith. The starting SG spot is wide open, but McEwen is the early favorite.
Comparing Sy to Derrick offensively. Ok. Derrick's BEST 3 pt% in 4 years was 23%. Sy finished at 37.5% and was 40% from distance in conference.
Derrick never reached 50% FT at MU. Sy was just under 73%.
Derrick's best FG % was essentially equal to Sy's this year.
Now, as far as Sy vs Aaron Rowsey...
Is this not the same argument that people made when they thought that Sacar's minutes would be slashed and he would transfer. Look, Koby played almost 30 mpg last year, and with 66 mpg at the guard spot graduating he's gonna play quite a bit this year too. Everybody is throwing around all these "what ifs", but right now Carton has to sit out, and Mane is an uncommitted target. Now, some of those things may change in the coming days, but right now, as the roster is constructed, Koby would start and see at least 25 mpg.
Likely:
Carton
Koby
Garcia
Bailey
Theo
Outside the box thinking:
Garcia
Carton
Bailey
Cain
Theo
What the team is missing is a good slasher. Believe Mane has that kind of athleticism/ability which would be huge addition.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 08:50:47 AM
Likely:
Carton
Koby
Garcia
Bailey
Theo
Outside the box thinking:
Garcia
Carton
Bailey
Cain
Theo
What the team is missing is a good slasher. Believe Mane has that kind of athleticism/ability which would be huge addition.
That 2nd group has one guy that can dribble. That's pretty far outside of the box.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2020, 08:58:28 AM
That 2nd group has one guy that can dribble. That's pretty far outside of the box.
Garcia handles the ball like a guard. Bailey is okay. Jamal? Makes me nervous when he puts it on the deck, but like all other attributes of his game. This lineup would defend and rebound well, and shoot the three well. But, I understand your point
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2020, 08:58:28 AM
That 2nd group has one guy that can dribble. That's pretty far outside of the box.
If Cain learns a little bit about dribbling this summer, he can move ahead of Bailey. Better than Bailey in many areas, but with the ball in his hands. he has to think
what to do, normally then a turnover. Has opportunity to do that, can he, I do not know.
Theo is the only guarantee at this point.
My outside the box that will never happen, but fun to consider, and give us some unique identity-
F- Oso
F- Lewis
F- Garcia
G- Sy
G- DJ (presuming eligibility of course)
Lineup would have inside/outside play, ball handling, versatility, size, and most importantly- talent!!
Theo as 6th man to prevent early foul trouble. Lots of minutes still.
Defense would be an issue though with those 5 together 😬. Would be entertaining though.
Let youth be served!
People who complain about Koby's handle, and at the same time advocate for Symir, better look more deeply at the stats.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 08:16:42 AM
Comparing Sy to Derrick offensively. Ok. Derrick's BEST 3 pt% in 4 years was 23%. Sy finished at 37.5% and was 40% from distance in conference.
Derrick never reached 50% FT at MU. Sy was just under 73%.
Derrick's best FG % was essentially equal to Sy's this year.
Now, as far as Sy vs Aaron Rowsey...
Yeah, Symir is better offensively than Derrick. That was hyperbole on my part. But Symir needs to learn how to attack and be more of a scoring threat.
Also, I noticed that I biffed on Rowsey's first name. Lousy brain.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 09:03:57 AM
Garcia handles the ball like a guard. Bailey is okay. Jamal? Makes me nervous when he puts it on the deck, but like all other attributes of his game. This lineup would defend and rebound well, and shoot the three well. But, I understand your point
Jamal is so baffling. Sometimes a picture perfect stroke from distance. Sometimes a confident move for a mid range J. Too often bone headed plays, rushed shot attempts.
He seems like a really nice, humble kid. I don't doubt he's trying to get better. Wish everything would come together as a senior for him. Next years team sure could use that. But based on three full years of basically the same player, I'm counting on nothing new and improved from him.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 18, 2020, 09:39:37 AM
People who complain about Koby's handle, and at the same time advocate for Symir, better look more deeply at the stats.
That's because you looked it up in a book. Next time, trying looking it up in your gut
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 09:31:22 AM
My outside the box that will never happen, but fun to consider, and give us some unique identity-
F- Oso
F- Lewis
F- Garcia
G- Sy
G- DJ (presuming eligibility of course)
Lineup would have inside/outside play, ball handling, versatility, size, and most importantly- talent!!
Theo as 6th man to prevent early foul trouble. Lots of minutes still.
Defense would be an issue though with those 5 together 😬. Would be entertaining though.
Let youth be served!
Not bad idea Hutch. In many ways this reminds me of Wojo's first year at MU. Had a lot of talented underclassmen, but chose to ride vets. Whatever the case, I'd take Koby McEwen all day everyday over Derrick Wilson.
Would feel for a guy like Jamal who has stuck with the program/Wojo, despite that brutal sophomore year, and relatively short hook. However, I believe Jamal can be better than Juan Anderson was as a senior.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Not bad idea Hutch. In many ways this reminds me of Wojo's first year at MU. Had a lot of talented underclassmen, but chose to ride vets. Whatever the case, I'd take Koby McEwen all day everyday over Derrick Wilson.
Would feel for a guy like Jamal who has stuck with the program/Wojo, despite that brutal sophomore year, and relatively short hook. However, I believe Jamal can be better than Juan Anderson was as a senior.
Jamal has talent. If he could avoid the bad mistakes he could push Bailey out of the lineup and with minutes could be a 10/8 guy. Hope he takes that step.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 09:45:50 AM
Jamal is so baffling. Sometimes a picture perfect stroke from distance. Sometimes a confident move for a mid range J. Too often bone headed plays, rushed shot attempts.
He seems like a really nice, humble kid. I don't doubt he's trying to get better. Wish everything would come together as a senior for him. Next years team sure could use that. But based on three full years of basically the same player, I'm counting on nothing new and improved from him.
I don't feel he takes many rushed shot attempts - particularly not as measured against other guys. 14.5% of shots while on floor. Then again, everybody kind of wanted to shoot their shot while playing with Markus...
I believe IF Wojo would give Jamal his full support, vote of confidence, extend leash - I think he can take a big step forward next year, although everything is going to be a mess for all players this summer as it relates to skill development, etc.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 10:50:04 AM
I don't feel he takes many rushed shot attempts - particularly not as measured against other guys. 14.5% of shots while on floor. Then again, everybody kind of wanted to shoot their shot while playing with Markus...
I believe IF Wojo would give Jamal his full support, vote of confidence, extend leash - I think he can take a big step forward next year, although everything is going to be a mess for all players this summer as it relates to skill development, etc.
::)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 18, 2020, 09:39:37 AM
People who complain about Koby's handle, and at the same time advocate for Symir, better look more deeply at the stats.
Sy has great court vision and hopefully the game slows down for him with regards to decision making at this level. He flashed but the numbers were terrible.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 10:50:04 AM
I believe IF Wojo would give Jamal his full support, vote of confidence, extend leash - I think he can take a big step forward next year, although everything is going to be a mess for all players this summer as it relates to skill development, etc.
I am far too lazy to look it up but a little while back both brew (I think brew, but it might have been TAMU) and I presented stats proving that you were wrong about Wojo's "leash" with Cain last season. You even admitted it after seeing the evidence. But here you are, bringing back one of your greatest hits (an oldie but a baddie).
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 09:31:22 AM
My outside the box that will never happen, but fun to consider, and give us some unique identity-
F- Oso
F- Lewis
F- Garcia
G- Sy
G- DJ (presuming eligibility of course)
Lineup would have inside/outside play, ball handling, versatility, size, and most importantly- talent!!
Theo as 6th man to prevent early foul trouble. Lots of minutes still.
Defense would be an issue though with those 5 together 😬. Would be entertaining though.
Let youth be served!
3 freshman and 2 sophomores. yikes.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 09:03:57 AM
Garcia handles the ball like a guard. Bailey is okay. Jamal? Makes me nervous when he puts it on the deck, but like all other attributes of his game. This lineup would defend and rebound well, and shoot the three well. But, I understand your point
Garcia handles the ball well for his size, but in no way do you want him as a primary or even secondary ballhandler at this point.
I mean, imagine your suggested lineup against St. John's or Providence.
If ever there was a time to make zone the base defense...
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2020, 11:11:51 AM
I am far too lazy to look it up but a little while back both brew (I think brew, but it might have been TAMU) and I presented stats proving that you were wrong about Wojo's "leash" with Cain last season. You even admitted it after seeing the evidence. But here you are, bringing back one of your greatest hits (an oldie but a baddie).
Okay...yes..I recall Brew making the post that due to Cain being a sub, his leash was shorter. I can appreciate that argument. However, the player "development" under Wojo at MU speaks for itself. Many guys stagnate, regress, quit, or transfer.
End of the day, the Wojo regime has not been very good. Two consecutive year end implosions, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer and two time all american on roster. Head scratching to say the least.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 18, 2020, 11:34:16 AM
Garcia handles the ball well for his size, but in no way do you want him as a primary or even secondary ballhandler at this point.
I mean, imagine your suggested lineup against St. John's or Providence.
Carton becomes primary ball handler in those situations if facing full court pressure. Not sure Koby or Sy are any less turnover prone, than what Garcia may be. Keep in mind, a big would likely be picking him up full court - not quite the same as facing pressure from a guard.
That aside, we likely won't see this lineup - but it could create some interesting opportunities both on O and D.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 12:39:13 PM
Okay...yes..I recall Brew making the post that due to Cain being a sub, his leash was shorter. I can appreciate that argument. However, the player "development" under Wojo at MU speaks for itself. Many guys stagnate, regress, quit, or transfer.
End of the day, the Wojo regime has not been very good. Two consecutive year end implosions, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer and two time all american on roster. Head scratching to say the least.
Yes, we understand how you feel about Wojo: Worst Coach Ever. Duly noted. For the 8,552nd time.
I consider it progress that you at least acknowledge (again) the truth re Wojo-Cain and that maybe you'll refrain from misrepresenting the facts again on that issue.
Unless we land Mane or another similar level player (and Carton is eligible), Koby will start. Even if we land Mane, I think Koby would be the leader for the 5th starting spot but could see him coming off the bench.
There is more to basketball than offense. Defense and rebounding matter too. Plus, I don't think the offense we saw last season from Koby is what we will see this season.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 18, 2020, 12:54:24 PM
Unless we land Mane or another similar level player (and Carton is eligible), Koby will start. Even if we land Mane, I think Koby would be the leader for the 5th starting spot but could see him coming off the bench.
There is more to basketball than offense. Defense and rebounding matter too. Plus, I don't think the offense we saw last season from Koby is what we will see this season.
This.
But I also feel confident that if somebody shows he is better than Koby, Wojo will have no problem giving that somebody (or those somebodies) more minutes than Koby. He has consistently done so, especially the last four years.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 12:42:17 PM
Carton becomes primary ball handler in those situations if facing full court pressure. Not sure Koby or Sy are any less turnover prone, than what Garcia may be. Keep in mind, a big would likely be picking him up full court - not quite the same as facing pressure from a guard.
No, pressing teams will not be sending their bigs into the backcourt to guard Dawson. That's not how it works.
At the moment...
PG - DJ Carton
SG - Koby McEwen
SF - Brendan Bailey
PF - Dawson Garcia
C - Theo John
The most likely to crack that lineup would be Mane, though I'm not sure Wojo would go that young (assuming he would take Koby's spot). Elliott, Cain, and Lewis I think will all have the chance to fight for starting spots, but ultimately Wojo's tendency is to go with guys he trusts, and he's demonstrated trust in the guys above. The obvious exceptions are Carton and Garcia, who I expect to be too good not to be on the court.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 09:31:22 AM
My outside the box that will never happen, but fun to consider, and give us some unique identity-
F- Oso
F- Lewis
F- Garcia
G- Sy
G- DJ (presuming eligibility of course)
This is the ultimate backup QB syndrome lineup. 4 guys who haven't played a second for MU yet (3 of whom haven't graduated HS yet) and the last guy in the rotation from last season.
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2020, 12:53:03 PM
Yes, we understand how you feel about Wojo: Worst Coach Ever. Duly noted. For the 8,552nd time.
I consider it progress that you at least acknowledge (again) the truth re Wojo-Cain and that maybe you'll refrain from misrepresenting the facts again on that issue.
There is no misrepresentation of "facts." Wojo had a very quick hook with Cain sophomore year. Was better last year. Perhaps one reason we implode down the stretch is guys are worn out, due to Wojo's excessively quick hook for some bench guys...this grinding the startes to the bone.
Also. We understand how you feel about Wojo. We just need to have some patience. Jay Wright started slow. So did Coach K. Thanks as always for reminding us for our need to keep perspective.
BTW - Please quote 1 post where I've said, or anybody else has said: "Wojo is the worst coach ever." You are the only tool here that posts that cheesy and lame exaggeration.
I think Koby starts. The question is how long he starts. Wojo has frequently change is starting lineup. Bailey started as a Freshmen and was replaced by Joey. Morrow also started and was replaced by John. I think Howard did not originally start as a freshmen, but he earned his way into the starting five.
Wojo played the Hausers too many minutes in 18-19. Wore them down, slowed the development of others, like Cain. Cain turned the ball over, back came a Hauser. It limited his options when the dissension hit.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 18, 2020, 02:44:13 PM
This is the ultimate backup QB syndrome lineup. 4 guys who haven't played a second for MU yet (3 of whom haven't graduated HS yet) and the last guy in the rotation from last season.
Lighten up. Geez
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 03:44:47 PM
Lighten up. Geez
Not sure what about my post needed lightening. It wasn't a criticism, just a statement of fact
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2020, 12:57:19 PM
This.
But I also feel confident that if somebody shows he is better than Koby, Wojo will have no problem giving that somebody (or those somebodies) more minutes than Koby. He has consistently done so, especially the last four years.
Absolutely agree. Players develop at different rates and freshmen are sometimes better than their ranking. John leapfrogging Heldt is a perfect example. But more often than not, if a player was above another player on the depth chart last year, that won't change the following year.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 18, 2020, 04:01:35 PM
Not sure what about my post needed lightening. It wasn't a criticism, just a statement of fact
Ok, but talking about backup qb syndrome sounds like criticism to me. It was meant to be light hearted, not sure why the need to straighten the record.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 18, 2020, 04:41:55 PM
Ok, but talking about backup qb syndrome sounds like criticism to me. It was meant to be light hearted, not sure why the need to straighten the record.
Irony.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 18, 2020, 02:49:58 PM
There is no misrepresentation of "facts." Wojo had a very quick hook with Cain sophomore year. Was better last year. Perhaps one reason we implode down the stretch is guys are worn out, due to Wojo's excessively quick hook for some bench guys...this grinding the startes to the bone.
Also. We understand how you feel about Wojo. We just need to have some patience. Jay Wright started slow. So did Coach K. Thanks as always for reminding us for our need to keep perspective.
BTW - Please quote 1 post where I've said, or anybody else has said: "Wojo is the worst coach ever." You are the only tool here that posts that cheesy and lame exaggeration.
As I've said several times, I am no longer bigly Projo. Very disappointed in the last two finishes and in losing the Hausers, and I expect more from his team next season.
I just get a kick out of those who have trouble posting on any MU hoops topic without bashing him. For example, your first three posts after Wojo landed Carton included shots at him.
You couldn't help yourself. You simply had to get a few digs in at the Very Very Most Terriblest Coach Ever.
Quote from: bilsu on April 18, 2020, 03:05:33 PM
I think Koby starts. The question is how long he starts. Wojo has frequently change is starting lineup. Bailey started as a Freshmen and was replaced by Joey. Morrow also started and was replaced by John. I think Howard did not originally start as a freshmen, but he earned his way into the starting five.
Last year that was not the case. We had 5 guys start 29 of the 30 games. Elliott and Cain each got one start when Howard and McEwen were out and Jayce got the nod over Theo on his senior night. And it was pretty clear that down the stretch, Elliott was playing better than McEwen and Cain was playing better than Bailey, but he still stuck with the same starting five, often longer into a game than seemed prudent (at SJU really stands out, but there were others).
I feel like Wojo is generally willing to tweak the starting five in the early parts of the season, but once he picks his guys, he really sticks with them, at least the last three years. In that time, we have had effectively three batches of starters:
2018: Rowsey, Howard, Anim, Hauser, Heldt (accounted for 163/175 starts)
2019: Howard, Anim, Sam, Joey, John (162/170 starts)
2020: Howard, McEwen, Anim, Bailey, John (147/150 starts)
So in the five starting positions, the guys who are tabbed as the starters accounted for 472/495 total available starts, which is 95.4% of the time. Not only that, but of those 23 non-starter starts, 7 were from Haanif (who was locked into a starter spot before he left) and 2 were senior day starts (Heldt & Johnson), so it's really 96.8% of the time that Wojo is rolling out his main guys.
He had starter flexibility in 2017. He flirted with it a bit in 2018, giving Greg and Froling some chances. Since then, however, he's been very rigid with the starters. Whoever has the job when we open play at the Fiserv is almost certainly going to be there when our season ends in March, and almost all the time in between.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 18, 2020, 07:40:43 PM
Last year that was not the case. We had 5 guys start 29 of the 30 games. Elliott and Cain each got one start when Howard and McEwen were out and Jayce got the nod over Theo on his senior night. And it was pretty clear that down the stretch, Elliott was playing better than McEwen and Cain was playing better than Bailey, but he still stuck with the same starting five, often longer into a game than seemed prudent (at SJU really stands out, but there were others).
I feel like Wojo is generally willing to tweak the starting five in the early parts of the season, but once he picks his guys, he really sticks with them, at least the last three years. In that time, we have had effectively three batches of starters:
2018: Rowsey, Howard, Anim, Hauser, Heldt (accounted for 163/175 starts)
2019: Howard, Anim, Sam, Joey, John (162/170 starts)
2020: Howard, McEwen, Anim, Bailey, John (147/150 starts)
So in the five starting positions, the guys who are tabbed as the starters accounted for 472/495 total available starts, which is 95.4% of the time. Not only that, but of those 23 non-starter starts, 7 were from Haanif (who was locked into a starter spot before he left) and 2 were senior day starts (Heldt & Johnson), so it's really 96.8% of the time that Wojo is rolling out his main guys.
He had starter flexibility in 2017. He flirted with it a bit in 2018, giving Greg and Froling some chances. Since then, however, he's been very rigid with the starters. Whoever has the job when we open play at the Fiserv is almost certainly going to be there when our season ends in March, and almost all the time in between.
Thanks for proving my point better than I could.
I agree that Greg was playing better than Koby and that Jamal was playing better than BB down the stretch. Many also believed that Bailey was playing better than Joey towards the end of the previous season and it seemed that Wojo had a hard time supplanting Joey.
The start statistic you shared is sort of what I'm talking about when I say that Wojo essentially decides who his main guys are and sticks with it- tries to make it work at any cost.
I think he did it with Koby last season, especially in the last 10 games of the season, and it wasn't pretty. I also think that because he has this "idea" of Koby he will get another solid opportunity to start and play a heavy role (his defense, rebounding and experience help a lot here). I think the starting gig and heavy minutes will be Koby's to lose, unless someone like Mane comes on board
Al McGuire would not change his starting 5 after the season started. He thought that was bad for team morale.
Now that does not mean a starters minutes did not decrease.
Cain had some nice shooting games, but overall he was not better than Bailey,
(Assuming Carton is immediate-eligible and Mane comes on board)
Roll w/3guards...Carton, Mane and McEwen. Backups Torrance, Elliott and Dex. B/U PT based on match-ups, foul trouble or how McEwen is playing.
Front court, Theo and Garcia. Lewis, Cain, Bailey and O off the bench.
If McEwen opts to grad transfer (assuming he has the degree), no worries.
In the final game of the year vs. STJ, Koby started and played 11 minutes and GE played 26 (and played very well 11/5/2). Who knows if that was a one-off or if Wojo finally saw the light, we will never know, but maybe the transition was going to be made.
Starters don't really matter, how many minutes each guy gets is what matters.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on April 19, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
In the final game of the year vs. STJ, Koby started and played 11 minutes and GE played 26 (and played very well 11/5/2). Who knows if that was a one-off or if Wojo finally saw the light, we will never know, but maybe the transition was going to be made.
Starters don't really matter, how many minutes each guy gets is what matters.
It was a coach doing what a coach does. Playing the player who was better that day. It has nothing to do with who starts next year.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on April 19, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
In the final game of the year vs. STJ, Koby started and played 11 minutes and GE played 26 (and played very well 11/5/2). Who knows if that was a one-off or if Wojo finally saw the light, we will never know, but maybe the transition was going to be made.
Starters don't really matter, how many minutes each guy gets is what matters.
Yep. See: Williams, Erik; Smith, Reggie; many many many other examples over the years, not just at Marquette and not just college basketball.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 19, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
It was a coach doing what a coach does. Playing the player who was better that day. It has nothing to do with who starts next year.
Yep. Coaches want to win basketball games.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on April 19, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
In the final game of the year vs. STJ, Koby started and played 11 minutes and GE played 26 (and played very well 11/5/2). Who knows if that was a one-off or if Wojo finally saw the light, we will never know, but maybe the transition was going to be made.
Starters don't really matter, how many minutes each guy gets is what matters.
It took GE a while to get back form his injury. There were flashes of him being good in prior games. I do not think you can conclude that Wojo saw the light. What Wojo saw was one player playing well against St. John's and another plyer not playing well. That does not necessarily mean anything for the future as who is going to start..
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 19, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
It was a coach doing what a coach does. Playing the player who was better that day. It has nothing to do with who starts next year.
Agree. However, Wojo didn't do that very often with Koby. The last game he played 11 minutes. the game before he played 34 against DePaul and the game before that, vs SHU, he played 16. You have to go all the way back to January 1 to find a game where he played under 20 minutes and in that game he had 4 fouls in that time.
So I think the leash that Wojo had given Koby, had shrunk considerable in that last week. And Naturally, this doesn't mean anything for next season, but what it could indicate is that the second guard position is wide open right now and ready for anyone to jump up and grab it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 18, 2020, 07:40:43 PM
Last year that was not the case. We had 5 guys start 29 of the 30 games. Elliott and Cain each got one start when Howard and McEwen were out and Jayce got the nod over Theo on his senior night. And it was pretty clear that down the stretch, Elliott was playing better than McEwen and Cain was playing better than Bailey, but he still stuck with the same starting five, often longer into a game than seemed prudent (at SJU really stands out, but there were others).
I feel like Wojo is generally willing to tweak the starting five in the early parts of the season, but once he picks his guys, he really sticks with them, at least the last three years. In that time, we have had effectively three batches of starters:
2018: Rowsey, Howard, Anim, Hauser, Heldt (accounted for 163/175 starts)
2019: Howard, Anim, Sam, Joey, John (162/170 starts)
2020: Howard, McEwen, Anim, Bailey, John (147/150 starts)
So in the five starting positions, the guys who are tabbed as the starters accounted for 472/495 total available starts, which is 95.4% of the time. Not only that, but of those 23 non-starter starts, 7 were from Haanif (who was locked into a starter spot before he left) and 2 were senior day starts (Heldt & Johnson), so it's really 96.8% of the time that Wojo is rolling out his main guys.
He had starter flexibility in 2017. He flirted with it a bit in 2018, giving Greg and Froling some chances. Since then, however, he's been very rigid with the starters. Whoever has the job when we open play at the Fiserv is almost certainly going to be there when our season ends in March, and almost all the time in between.
I think 2 of those GE starts in 2018 were home to STJ and at DP when Markus was injured.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on April 19, 2020, 11:15:54 AM
Agree. However, Wojo didn't do that very often with Koby. The last game he played 11 minutes. the game before he played 34 against DePaul and the game before that, vs SHU, he played 16. You have to go all the way back to January 1 to find a game where he played under 20 minutes and in that game he had 4 fouls in that time.
So I think the leash that Wojo had given Koby, had shrunk considerable in that last week. And Naturally, this doesn't mean anything for next season, but what it could indicate is that the second guard position is wide open right now and ready for anyone to jump up and grab it.
Koby played like absolute garbage that game. Wojo was fed up with a lot of players and Elliott was playing well.
Koby would have gone right back to starting in the BET in my opinion.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 19, 2020, 12:04:49 PM
Koby played like absolute garbage that game. Wojo was fed up with a lot of players and Elliott was playing well.
Koby would have gone right back to starting in the BET in my opinion.
Again, I completely agree. But I think the leash on Koby was much much shorter and he may have only played 10-15 minutes if he was playing like garbage yet again.