MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2020, 11:11:51 PM
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We have a first team All American, a possible POY. Who is our second best player? Sacar Anim, 5th year senior? Brendan Bailey, senior by age, sophomore by experience? Fourth year transfer Koby? Junior C Theo John? Lots of age/experience there, but how much talent? Would any of them be the second or even third best player on any other BE team? How many would be starters on other Big East teams? Which teams (if any)? Some here think Sacar is super senior glue guy. That Koby is (at minimum) 2nd team All Big East guy. That Bailey is on a path to be a Marquette “all timer” guy and that Theo is only a half a year away from being a “stud” guy. All I see are are “guys”. Nice guys? Likely. Hard working guys? Sure. But other than a game here and a game there, as players they’re just guys. Sure hope those freshmen are ready from the jump next year - they’ll need to be.
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We have a first team All American, a possible POY. Who is our second best player? Sacar Anim, 5th year senior? Brendan Bailey, senior by age, sophomore by experience? Fourth year transfer Koby? Junior C Theo John? Lots of age/experience there, but how much talent? Would any of them be the second or even third best player on any other BE team? How many would be starters on other Big East teams? Which teams (if any)? Some here think Sacar is super senior glue guy. That Koby is (at minimum) 2nd team All Big East guy. That Bailey is on a path to be a Marquette “all timer” guy and that Theo is only a half a year away from being a “stud” guy. All I see are are “guys”. Nice guys? Likely. Hard working guys? Sure. But other than a game here and a game there, as players they’re just guys. Sure hope those freshmen are ready from the jump next year - they’ll need to be.
I’m sure everything you said is valid.
The answer to the question, and the problem to this squad, is that we don’t know.
If Markus plus Koby plus Sacar don’t score fiddy this team is doomed. I’m confident by March however
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Spot on, Lenny. When we don't even have a clue as to who is the 2nd best player on the team, we are in big trouble.
Reminds me of NFL coaches who brag about having a competition at the QB position because they have 2 really good players. If there is a competition at QB, you have zero good QBs.
Likewise, if we are trying to decide between 3 guys as to who is 2nd best, we don't have a 2nd best. We just have - as Lenny said - "guys".
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Our two best wins are Purdue and Nova, which happen to be McEwen's best games of the season. I don't think that's a coincidence. The problem of course is that he's been a non-factor pretty much the rest of the season.
MU needed either McEwen or Anim to be an all-conference selection, but that's not happening. Combined with the brutal play coming from the 5 spot and little to no bench production, the poor start to conference play isn't much of a surprise.
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Lenny
As you said, it appears that this is great group of young men and hard workers that represent MU well on and off the court. But, I have said it all season, aside from Howard, none of these guys would play significant minutes on a top ten team. Koby or Bailey would be pick as our second best player and I think pretty easy to pick those two.
For those who thought the Hauser's would not be missed, I hope by now it obvious they are missed a great deal. Losing those two left Wojo with one top tier player and nine role players. Said early in the season, at the moment this team is a one trick pony.
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Lenny
As you said, it appears that this is great group of young men and hard workers that represent MU well on and off the court. But, I have said it all season, aside from Howard, none of these guys would play significant minutes on a top ten team. Koby or Bailey would be pick as our second best player and I think pretty easy to pick those two.
For those who thought the Hauser's would not be missed, I hope by now it obvious they are missed a great deal. Losing those two left Wojo with one top tier player and nine role players. Said early in the season, at the moment this team is a one trick pony.
Yet every time we received a committment from one of these non Howard types many scoopers acted like we won the NC and proclaimed what a fantastic recruiter Wojo and his staff are. I contend Wojo recruiting is over rated. Either that or the system and coaching is not helping the players not named Howard. I laugh when some here get all giddy with the prospect of MH scoring 30. 40. 50 points. That's not good basketball. Great for Howard, fun to watch at times, not good for the team and player development
As far as the Hausers, I remember many of the slurpers all excited about having a quicker more cohesive team with the Hausers gone. The team would actually be better and play defense and be fun to watch, blah, blah, blah. How asinine. I bet Izzo and Bennet are thrilled to have them.
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That's why I think this idea of being excited about next year's recruiting class is fool's gold. No use getting these guys in here if they can't be coached up.
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That's why I think this idea of being excited about next year's recruiting class is fool's gold. No use getting these guys in here if they can't be coached up.
Well the excuse next year will be, they are freshmen
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Sacar is more like the question, instead of the answer.
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And to Sacar's defense, he was never meant to be our second best player. He is the perfect role player and defender who can go off now and again when he gets hot. He was supposed to be our fourth option on offense.
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hairy
The slurpers sure were wrong on the new improved Warriors minus the Hausers. Anyone that truly believed that should be banned from posting on here. Sam and Joey are big time players and no one on this roster was going to replace them.
The scoopers that grew up on video games vs. watching great ball are the ones that love Howard going for 40 or 50. Study the game and guys that score like Howard play on poor teams. It is not good basketball and he has proven it does not equate to winning basketball.
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Yet every time we received a committment from one of these non Howard types many scoopers acted like we won the NC and proclaimed what a fantastic recruiter Wojo and his staff are. I contend Wojo recruiting is over rated. Either that or the system and coaching is not helping the players not named Howard. I laugh when some here get all giddy with the prospect of MH scoring 30. 40. 50 points. That's not good basketball. Great for Howard, fun to watch at times, not good for the team and player development
As far as the Hausers, I remember many of the slurpers all excited about having a quicker more cohesive team with the Hausers gone. The team would actually be better and play defense and be fun to watch, blah, blah, blah. How asinine. I bet Izzo and Bennet are thrilled to have them.
Yes, I remember the comments. Good riddance, addition by subtraction, etc
Blame the Hausers, etc. That fiasco is on Wojo. Did he even do anything to try to reconcile the issues there. Doubt it, he has trouble preparing his players and making in game adjustments.
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Sacar is more like the question, instead of the answer.
Where's Sacar?
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Down the stretch last year, Wojo had two choices: Reign in Markus and feature the Hausers more, or double down on Markus and call the Hausers’ bluff if they threatened to transfer. He’s living with his decision now, and many on here, over the last ten months, had come to laud him for it. “We have all the guys who want to be Warriors now” they said. “We’ll be quicker and have better chemistry now that the quitters are gone” they said.
Outside of Markus, this team has a bunch of Mike Deane level players. I think Bailey might be the one exception, depending on the game. But that’s about it.
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Is it so much a lack of talent, or poor coaching, game planning, etc. which isn’t putting them into position to succeed?
My feeling is if you gave this same group to a good coach they’d suddenly look quite a bit more capable/talented.
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Yet every time we received a committment from one of these non Howard types many scoopers acted like we won the NC and proclaimed what a fantastic recruiter Wojo and his staff are. I contend Wojo recruiting is over rated. Either that or the system and coaching is not helping the players not named Howard. I laugh when some here get all giddy with the prospect of MH scoring 30. 40. 50 points. That's not good basketball. Great for Howard, fun to watch at times, not good for the team and player development
As far as the Hausers, I remember many of the slurpers all excited about having a quicker more cohesive team with the Hausers gone. The team would actually be better and play defense and be fun to watch, blah, blah, blah. How asinine. I bet Izzo and Bennet are thrilled to have them.
Woj totally mishandled and fooked up the entire fiasco. Unfortunately, numb nuts let the camp fire turn into a forest fire all the while hoping it would self extinguish.
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For those who thought the Hauser's would not be missed, I hope by now it obvious they are missed a great deal. Losing those two left Wojo with one top tier player and nine role players. Said early in the season, at the moment this team is a one trick pony.
The only way we would have the Hausers is if Markus would have left for the draft. So no - we would not be a better team if the Hausers had stayed.
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I've seen some pretty disturbing body language out of our guards lately, including late in the game yesterday, that leads me to believe there are still problems with team unity.
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Gooo
I would take two Hausers over one Markus all season long. They make other guys better and Howard does not.
Fluff
It looks to me that Koby has little interest in passing the ball to Howard. He is better player than he is showing, but pressing when he gets the ball. No doubt in my mind that chemistry remains an issue.
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The only way we would have the Hausers is if Markus would have left for the draft. So no - we would not be a better team if the Hausers had stayed.
I don't believe that to be true. There were other ways.
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I've seen some pretty disturbing body language out of our guards lately, including late in the game yesterday, that leads me to believe there are still problems with team unity.
There was a play yesterday, I think it was in the second half, where Koby was dribbling and Markus was at the top of the key calling for the ball. Koby refused to pass to him and Markus did a “Joey” and kind of shrugged his shoulders/shook his head in frustration. The end result of that play was an open three for Bailey that missed.
Not sure if anyone else saw that, but I thought it was odd.
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Gooo
I would take two Hausers over one Markus all season long. They make other guys better and Howard does not.
Fluff
It looks to me that Koby has little interest in passing the ball to Howard. He is better player than he is showing, but pressing when he gets the ball. No doubt in my mind that chemistry remains an issue.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o7rbY6OwRBrkbx8qI/giphy.gif)
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There was a play yesterday, I think it was in the second half, where Koby was dribbling and Markus was at the top of the key calling for the ball. Koby refused to pass to him and Markus did a “Joey” and kind of shrugged his shoulders/shook his head in frustration. The end result of that play was an open three for Bailey that missed.
Not sure if anyone else saw that, but I thought it was odd.
That is the exact play I was thinking of.
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Anyone that thinks a guy taking 33 shots in a game is a good idea does not know ball. Any competitive person wants to be part of the action, not just watching one guy shoot every time down the court. The second half of the Buffalo game last season created a monster and the coach has allowed to continue.
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Anyone that thinks a guy taking 33 shots in a game is a good idea does not know ball. Any competitive person wants to be part of the action, not just watching one guy shoot every time down the court. The second half of the Buffalo game last season created a monster and the coach has allowed to continue.
Brendan, Sacar and Theo had plenty of shots yesterday. They just kept missing them. With those guys shooting a combined 14%, Markus had to shoot.
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First the Hausers didn’t like playing with Markus, and now Koby. I’m noticing a pattern.
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Brendan, Sacar and Theo had plenty of shots yesterday. They just kept missing them. With those guys shooting a combined 14%, Markus had to shoot.
I think there’s some chicken or egg debate around Markus, but I do wonder how Wojo’s “defer to Markus” the majority of the time offense affects everyone else’s rhythm, confidence, etc. I thought the first half of PC game was a perfect example. It’s 4 guys looking for Markus possession after possession. It’s really hard to watch and too often ineffective. We have to be the easiest offense in the conference to defend.
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Brendan, Sacar and Theo had plenty of shots yesterday. They just kept missing them. With those guys shooting a combined 14%, Markus had to shoot.
this...powell and markus had the same amount of shots. Seton Hall had other players yesterday who could create and make scoring opportunities. Marquette did not. If Bailey hits 2 of those wide open threes, or if McEwen doesnt gack those two free throws. Who knows.
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First the Hausers didn’t like playing with Markus, and now Koby. I’m noticing a pattern.
Would you like it? I wouldn't
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Goo
They did get shots, agreed. Sacar and Koby are taking a shot far more often than passing once they get the ball. Does not mean good shots, but yes shots were taken. Sam Hauser took good shots for three years, thus far Koby has taken many questionable shots IMO.
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I think the other players depend on Markus, especially in important situations. Greg, Sacar, Brendan, Greg and Jamal perhaps without consciously thinking about it, think, in a tight moment, that it is safer to go to Markus than take responsibility for missing. So Sacar and Bailey, in particular, drive to the middle and stop halfway in and pass it out. That has a bad effect over time.
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I think the other players depend on Markus, especially in important situations. Greg, Sacar, Brendan, Greg and Jamal perhaps without consciously thinking about it, think, in a tight moment, that it is safer to go to Markus than take responsibility for missing. So Sacar and Bailey, in particular, drive to the middle and stop halfway in and pass it out. That has a bad effect over time.
I agree with this. To take it one step further the coach is sending that message to the players as well.
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Anyone that thinks a guy taking 33 shots in a game is a good idea does not know ball. Any competitive person wants to be part of the action, not just watching one guy shoot every time down the court. The second half of the Buffalo game last season created a monster and the coach has allowed to continue.
Spot on. Further I will say Wojo saying early and often in Markus’s career that he has the “ultimate green light” was dumb AF. Hard to giveth and then takeaway. It was bound to result in discontent among the other guys on the team.
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First the Hausers didn’t like playing with Markus, and now Koby. I’m noticing a pattern.
No you are not. In Wojos world, you get on the bus and like playing with Markus or you get thrown under the bus.
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Brendan Bailey.
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Brendan Bailey.
Are there any other Big East teams on which Brendan Bailey would be the second (or even third) best player?
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Goo
They did get shots, agreed. Sacar and Koby are taking a shot far more often than passing once they get the ball. Does not mean good shots, but yes shots were taken. Sam Hauser took good shots for three years, thus far Koby has taken many questionable shots IMO.
So I don't understand what you're looking for from Markus.
You acknowledge that other players are allowed to take shots, but when they take then, they often aren't good ones. You know that Koby is the primary PG, so if anyone is at fault for guys taking bad shots, it's Koby and the guy taking the shot. And yet you rip on Markus - the one guy who seems able to make the shots.
What is Markus supposed to do - pass up a makable shot so he can pass it to a guy who will take a worse shot? Before you answer, remember - Markus is NOT our PG.
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Are there any other Big East teams on which Brendan Bailey would be the second (or even third) best player?
I have little doubt that he would be a solid rotational player for any of them. 6'8, handles the ball, shoots from 3, d's and rebounds. As to whether he would be the second best player, it is impossible to know as you don't know how he would interact with the teammates around him. And, just to annoy you, I will still take him over Joey.
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Are there any other Big East teams on which Brendan Bailey would be the second (or even third) best player?
And yet we have all these wins...must be the coaching that is making all this average or below average talent come up with wins....cuz our second best player wouldn’t even be a third best player on some other Big East team...right?
Or...wait for it....different guys step up. In my mind Sacar is the second most consistent player with BB close by. There are also other guys that do less on the scoring front, but more of the dirty work which people don’t want to bother with.
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I have little doubt that he would be a solid rotational player for any of them. 6'8, handles the ball, shoots from 3, d's and rebounds. As to whether he would be the second best player, it is impossible to know as you don't know how he would interact with the teammates around him. And, just to annoy you, I will still take him over Joey.
This... And not just to annoy him. I think Bailey is better than Joey, and fits better on this team as well. Oh, and "good" Koby would start on many teams as well.
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Brendan Bailey.
I would agree, and am pleasantly surprised with his improvement this year. His rebounding and ball handling (creating for himself off the dribble) are much better this year, and shooting slightly improved. Just needs to be more consistent.
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Second best player? Easy. I'm another vote for Brendan Bailey. He always shows up on defense and in rebounding. When he's being assertive on offense he's all league material. That does not happen often enough, though.
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Down the stretch last year, Wojo had two choices: Reign in Markus and feature the Hausers more, or double down on Markus and call the Hausers’ bluff if they threatened to transfer.
A couple of problems here ...
1. The Hausers, especially Joey, were not very good down the stretch. During the team's end-of-season slump, Joey shot 39% overall, 32% from 3 and 63% from the line, averaging 2.6 TOs and 8.4 ppg. Sam was better -- 40% overall, 39% from 3, 1.000% from the line, 1.6 TO and 13.7 ppg. Markus sucked, too ... but to suggest that the season could have been saved by going to the Hausers, especially Joey, who by that time had been in a month-long tailspin and had become both a turnover machine and a severe defensive liability ... seems like pretty wishful thinking.
2. A college coach cannot submit to player demands. Now, neither you nor I were there, so neither of us knows how this all played out. If Sam approached Wojo as a captain and had a genuine heart-to-heart with him about his concerns and what might be done, that's one thing. If there really was a letter, or if there was some other kind of ultimatum or attempted coup, that's a very different thing. Maybe neither of those things occurred. We don't know. What I am fairly certain of is that most coaches do not react well to players telling them what to do. I'm pretty sure that if the 2nd and 3rd best Michigan State players went to Izzo and told him that they were outta there if he didn't rein in Cassius Winston, he'd tell them not to let the door hit them on the way out.
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MU82
Have you looked at Howard's BE stats thus far this season. His BE start is looking a lot like Joey's swan song month at MU. Only difference, Howard takes about 3-4 times more shots per game.
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Our second best player is the hottest of Bailey, Anim or Koby. If none are hot we lose. It's a tough proposition to not be able to have a reliable #2 but I think its the best we can hope for at this stage.
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What happened to Sacar killing it this summer? Most improved on the team? More complete garbage. Just like morrow was the best player on the team when he was sitting out? How can we ever believe any of this again? That being said the second best player should sure as heck be sacar. Fifth year senior, the effort just doesn't seem to be there some games.
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Sacar is not playing physically on the boards, he will not finish through traffic, getting into the lane consistently and then stopping, pivoting in a circle, and passing to somebody else. He needs to embrace contact.
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I would say Sacar, but Brendan isn't too far behind.
That said, we still need Sacar to be more aggressive when Markus is getting hounded. BB has been the biggest pleasant surprise this season - even with his stinker at SH.
Koby has been a disaster. Honestly, I don't know that I had disliked a Marquette player more since I started following in 08-09 season. He has a bad attitude and even worse body language. I know we need Koby, so I get why he plays, but I definitely would be cutting into those minutes. Need Greg back in a hurry.
Theo has been terrible offensively. I give him a bit of break as I realize he's basically playing 1 handed - but man he's in his own head around the rim. Honestly we should consider starting Jayce for a few games. Theo just gets stuffed 3-4 times in the first 5 minutes every game.
Outside of Markus, the supporting cast has been very disappointing.
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I would agree, and am pleasantly surprised with his improvement this year. His rebounding and ball handling (creating for himself off the dribble) are much better this year, and shooting slightly improved. Just needs to be more consistent.
I wonder if his improvement in part is due to coaching....nah...100% not because of coaching.
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Our second best player is the hottest of Bailey, Anim or Koby. If none are hot we lose. It's a tough proposition to not be able to have a reliable #2 but I think its the best we can hope for at this stage.
This. I think a lot of other coach's defensive strategy against us is "let Markus get his, and stop everyone else." If no one steps up to fill the other scoring role, we lose.
In our losses this year...
@Wisconsin- Bailey + Anim 0-9, 3 pts. Koby had 19.
Maryland- Opposite strategy: Markus was shut down and the rest had 53 combined
@Creighton- Bailey and Anim had 18 each, Koby ZERO
Providence- Bailey had 19, but Sacar and Koby went 5-21
@ Seton Hall- none scored double digits, combined 6-24 from the floor
So we need all of these guys to show up. When one or more of them lays an egg, we're effed.
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What happened to Sacar killing it this summer? Most improved on the team? More complete garbage. Just like morrow was the best player on the team when he was sitting out? How can we ever believe any of this again? That being said the second best player should sure as heck be sacar. Fifth year senior, the effort just doesn't seem to be there some games.
Uhm, Sacar is averaging 12 points per game...the most in his career...first time ever in double digits. Highest rebounds in his career, highest 3Pt Shooting %, highest blocks, etc. His BPM is highest of his career.
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Anyone that thinks a guy taking 33 shots in a game is a good idea does not know ball. Any competitive person wants to be part of the action, not just watching one guy shoot every time down the court. The second half of the Buffalo game last season created a monster and the coach has allowed to continue.
Maybe Koby should hit more shots if he wants more shots. Guy is broke as a joke right now. I'd rather Markus shoot the ball with all 5 defenders draped on him than Koby wide open.
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Our second best player is the hottest of Bailey, Anim or Koby. If none are hot we lose. It's a tough proposition to not be able to have a reliable #2 but I think its the best we can hope for at this stage.
Pretty much this. There is no clear-cut #2 which is a definite problem. I think it should be Anim because of experience and his skill set. Koby has a lot of physical tools but a low bbiq. Brendan by the end of the year will be a more obvious number 2 I think. We desperately need 1 or 2 guys that can create their own shot and drive well. McEwen must prove he can finish around the rim.
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MU82
Have you looked at Howard's BE stats thus far this season. His BE start is looking a lot like Joey's swan song month at MU. Only difference, Howard takes about 3-4 times more shots per game.
Goose
Yep, Markus' BEast stats haven't been very good. He indeed has averaged 3 times as many shots during our conference games so far this season as Joey did down the stretch last season.
Now, you are quite knowledgeable about basketball, so you know all about usage. You also know that while Joey benefited greatly from having both Markus and Sam occupy the attention of opposing defenses, Markus benefits from ... whom? You already have declared, perhaps accurately, that not a single one of Markus' teammates would get much (if any) playing time at a top-10 program. How many times was Joey double-teamed down the stretch last season? How many coaches set up their entire defensive gameplan to shut down Joey Hauser? They didn't have to; he shut himself down.
Markus is the only Warrior who can consistently create his own shot, and he is one of the best shooters in the world. But sure, it would be great if a few other Warriors could take and make more open shots, if we had a couple more guys who could finish around the rim, etc.
When it came to getting wide-open looks last season, Sam and Joey benefited significantly from having an All-American on the court with them. For example, in the 5-game stretch after the famous we-didn't-need-Markus-to-beat-Georgetown game, Sam averaged 20 ppg playing alongside Markus. And, for most of the season, the All-American benefited from having Sam and Joey, too -- it definitely was a two-way street, and I would never claim otherwise.
It's too bad that two of those players decided they couldn't coexist with the third. Would have been nice to have seen what this team could have done if they hadn't quit the program.
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Maybe Koby should hit more shots if he wants more shots. Guy is broke as a joke right now. I'd rather Markus shoot the ball with all 5 defenders draped on him than Koby wide open.
Yup. Maybe people are seeing something different than I am, but I would say most of Markus' shots are in the flow of the game. Not all, he still forces some absolutely. He's an elite shooter and scorer, you let elite shooter / scorer....shoot and score. He defers plenty.
I keep reading about this nonsense if only Howard passed to Hauser in the Seton Hall game last year in the Big East tournament. #1) No guarantee Hauser makes it. #2) Hauser was 1 of 5 in the last ten minutes of that game, the one shot on an assist from.....Markus Howard. Sam had a good game, but struggled at the end. Markus was awful shooting, including (for him) at the free throw line...he did lead the team in assists that game for those that actually nailed their shots. When the game got big, some guys didn't step up.
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A couple of problems here ...
1. The Hausers, especially Joey, were not very good down the stretch. During the team's end-of-season slump, Joey shot 39% overall, 32% from 3 and 63% from the line, averaging 2.6 TOs and 8.4 ppg. Sam was better -- 40% overall, 39% from 3, 1.000% from the line, 1.6 TO and 13.7 ppg. Markus sucked, too ... but to suggest that the season could have been saved by going to the Hausers, especially Joey, who by that time had been in a month-long tailspin and had become both a turnover machine and a severe defensive liability ... seems like pretty wishful thinking.
2. A college coach cannot submit to player demands. Now, neither you nor I were there, so neither of us knows how this all played out. If Sam approached Wojo as a captain and had a genuine heart-to-heart with him about his concerns and what might be done, that's one thing. If there really was a letter, or if there was some other kind of ultimatum or attempted coup, that's a very different thing. Maybe neither of those things occurred. We don't know. What I am fairly certain of is that most coaches do not react well to players telling them what to do. I'm pretty sure that if the 2nd and 3rd best Michigan State players went to Izzo and told him that they were outta there if he didn't rein in Cassius Winston, he'd tell them not to let the door hit them on the way out.
I agree that we’ll never know what happened and also that coaches don’t like and shouldn’t have to put up with players telling them what to do. That said, did you see the play I referenced on the first page of this thread? It seems a situation is starting to brew again, only this time it’s with Koby, who does not seem to like passing the ball to Markus. Let’s hope it’s just Koby who (possibly) feels this way, and not other players as well. This team doesn’t have the talent to withstand locker room drama.
I guess my point is, for the last four years, and especially the last two, Wojo has chosen to go down the line with Markus. He’s even given him special treatment at times, like allowing him to go home the summer before his junior year. I remember reading an interview with Stan earlier this season, and his first words in the interview were, “Markus is amazing.” What do you think it does to a guy’s ego when all he hears from the people who are basically his surrogate parents is that he’s Saint God Among Men? It’ll be interesting to see, when all is said and done this year, how many NCAA wins this approach got us over the course of Markus’ career.
As a side note, I do think Markus is a fantastic scorer, probably the best scorer ever at MU, and terrifically fun to watch. I’m just not sure if “all of it, all the time” was the wisest strategy these last couple years.
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Goose
Yep, Markus' BEast stats haven't been very good. He indeed has averaged 3 times as many shots during our conference games so far this season as Joey did down the stretch last season.
Now, you are quite knowledgeable about basketball, so you know all about usage. You also know that while Joey benefited greatly from having both Markus and Sam occupy the attention of opposing defenses, Markus benefits from ... whom? You already have declared, perhaps accurately, that not a single one of Markus' teammates would get much (if any) playing time at a top-10 program. How many times was Joey double-teamed down the stretch last season? How many coaches set up their entire defensive gameplan to shut down Joey Hauser? They didn't have to; he shut himself down.
Markus is the only Warrior who can consistently create his own shot, and he is one of the best shooters in the world. But sure, it would be great if a few other Warriors could take and make more open shots, if we had a couple more guys who could finish around the rim, etc.
When it came to getting wide-open looks last season, Sam and Joey benefited significantly from having an All-American on the court with them. For example, in the 5-game stretch after the famous we-didn't-need-Markus-to-beat-Georgetown game, Sam averaged 20 ppg playing alongside Markus. And, for most of the season, the All-American benefited from having Sam and Joey, too -- it definitely was a two-way street, and I would never claim otherwise.
It's too bad that two of those players decided they couldn't coexist with the third. Would have been nice to have seen what this team could have done if they hadn't quit the program.
Great take, Mike.
In an ideal world, it would be great if MH was taking 15 shots a game because that would mean other guys were making shot.
But complaining after a game that MH shot too much when the 3 front court starters went 3 for 21 is beyond ludicrous.
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Uhm, Sacar is averaging 12 points per game...the most in his career...first time ever in double digits. Highest rebounds in his career, highest 3Pt Shooting %, highest blocks, etc. His BPM is highest of his career.
Obviously the correct answer.
The problem is that he needs to be even more assertive offensively with Sam and Joey gone. He's playing like they're still here. Maybe he thinks Brendan and Koby can replace the Hausers and he can play the way he always has in the past. Letting the game come to him and picking his spots to be aggressive on offense.
As a senior leader,(although I seldom see him actively leading, and could be wrong because I'm not in the team huddles) and the second best player on the team, he needs to do better than the numbers you cited. Is it fair to EXPECT more from Sacar? Maybe or maybe not. I do know we NEED more from him. That's obvious.
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Goose
Yep, Markus' BEast stats haven't been very good. He indeed has averaged 3 times as many shots during our conference games so far this season as Joey did down the stretch last season.
Now, you are quite knowledgeable about basketball, so you know all about usage. You also know that while Joey benefited greatly from having both Markus and Sam occupy the attention of opposing defenses, Markus benefits from ... whom? You already have declared, perhaps accurately, that not a single one of Markus' teammates would get much (if any) playing time at a top-10 program. How many times was Joey double-teamed down the stretch last season? How many coaches set up their entire defensive gameplan to shut down Joey Hauser? They didn't have to; he shut himself down.
Markus is the only Warrior who can consistently create his own shot, and he is one of the best shooters in the world. But sure, it would be great if a few other Warriors could take and make more open shots, if we had a couple more guys who could finish around the rim, etc.
When it came to getting wide-open looks last season, Sam and Joey benefited significantly from having an All-American on the court with them. For example, in the 5-game stretch after the famous we-didn't-need-Markus-to-beat-Georgetown game, Sam averaged 20 ppg playing alongside Markus. And, for most of the season, the All-American benefited from having Sam and Joey, too -- it definitely was a two-way street, and I would never claim otherwise.
It's too bad that two of those players decided they couldn't coexist with the third. Would have been nice to have seen what this team could have done if they hadn't quit the program.
Exceptionally well said.
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Is it fair to EXPECT more from Sacar? Maybe or maybe not. I do know we NEED more from him. That's obvious.
If Marquette is going to be a factor in the chase for a Big East title and the NCAA tournament, we need more from everyone: Sacar, Koby, Brendan, Theo, Ed, Jayce, Jamal, Greg, Symir -- and Markus.
As the team's leader, Markus is responsible for far more than scoring. Truly great players find a way to bring out the best in their teammates. Markus helps set the tone when it comes to things like communication, focus, defensive effort, protecting the ball, passing, et cetera.
With seven upperclassmen on the roster, experience should be a big plus for this team. Sacar, Ed and Jayce need to dig deep, step up and demonstrate what senior leadership really means. And players like Koby, Brendan, Theo and Jamal can't show up only part of the time. Competition in the Big East is too tough to get by with anything less than 100% effort.
I don't think a lack of talent is the issue. Marquette had enough talent to beat quality opponents like Purdue and Villanova -- not through unbelievable shooting, but through outstanding team defense. The biggest issue I see is a lack of consistency. There's still time to turn the corner. But it better happen fast.
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As the team's leader, Markus is responsible for far more than scoring. Truly great players find a way to bring out the best in their teammates. Markus helps set the tone when it comes to things like communication, focus, defensive effort, protecting the ball, passing, et cetera.
I've seen both Markus and Sacar coach up the younger guys after a miscue a number of times this year. Rather than reacting negatively, they grabbed a guy by the waist and quietly offered some words of advice. And while I obviously couldn't hear what was said, the body language and the reaction of the other guy sure made these interactions seem well-intentioned and well-received. I see room for improvement in a number of areas, but I think we do have a couple very good senior leaders in this group.
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I agree that we’ll never know what happened and also that coaches don’t like and shouldn’t have to put up with players telling them what to do. That said, did you see the play I referenced on the first page of this thread? It seems a situation is starting to brew again, only this time it’s with Koby, who does not seem to like passing the ball to Markus. Let’s hope it’s just Koby who (possibly) feels this way, and not other players as well. This team doesn’t have the talent to withstand locker room drama.
I guess my point is, for the last four years, and especially the last two, Wojo has chosen to go down the line with Markus. He’s even given him special treatment at times, like allowing him to go home the summer before his junior year. I remember reading an interview with Stan earlier this season, and his first words in the interview were, “Markus is amazing.” What do you think it does to a guy’s ego when all he hears from the people who are basically his surrogate parents is that he’s Saint God Among Men? It’ll be interesting to see, when all is said and done this year, how many NCAA wins this approach got us over the course of Markus’ career.
As a side note, I do think Markus is a fantastic scorer, probably the best scorer ever at MU, and terrifically fun to watch. I’m just not sure if “all of it, all the time” was the wisest strategy these last couple years.
I did see the play you referenced. Whether intentional (I hope not, because it hurt the team) or simply because Koby didn't see Markus, Markus was open and should have gotten the ball. I did see Markus' second of frustration. I wish he wouldn't have shown it, but he's human, too. I haven't seen it before from him, nor did I see it again during the game. Neither you nor I is privy to any information suggesting this "means" anything, big-picture. I guess we'll see.
The star of any team usually gets special treatment. Look around pro and college basketball. You don't think Jordan and Laettner got special treatment? You don't think LeBron and Powell do? You don't think Wiseman did during his short time at Memphis? It happens in high school, middle school and BiddyBall, too.
As a coach, I have a saying: "I am not going to treat everybody equally, but I am going to treat everybody fairly." Most understand what that means; some, I have to explain it to, but they get it after I do.
Markus is a special player. I would be stunned only if Wojo didn't give him "special treatment."
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This. I think a lot of other coach's defensive strategy against us is "let Markus get his, and stop everyone else." If no one steps up to fill the other scoring role, we lose.
I think it’s the opposite. It seems to me teams are hounding Markus and putting a lot of pressure on him knowing they won’t get burned by the supporting cast. Even if one guy gets hot, it’s fine if life is difficult on Markus.
The offense breaks down when Markus is pressured since our solution seems to be dribbling out of pressure. We lose our flow and Markus is forced into tough shots. He is really good at hitting tough shots, so his stats look ok. Paint Touches showed his stats against A teams are not great this year.
We don’t have a lot of guys that can create shots. When driving, it feels like we either throw a prayer up at the rim hoping for a call or stop and pivot in the paint. In tougher games, we haven’t been hitting 3s at the rate to start the year.
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With seven upperclassmen on the roster, experience should be a big plus for this team.
Only two of the seven have experience playing big minutes in the BEast.
This years team actually has far less real experience than last years team.
Just another going away present from the Hausers to Marquette and its fans.
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MU82
I noted Koby not wanting to pass the ball to Howard a few games ago. No idea if a chemistry problem or Koby feels he is a better option for the team to score.
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MU82
I noted Koby not wanting to pass the ball to Howard a few games ago. No idea if a chemistry problem or Koby feels he is a better option for the team to score.
Koby is high AF if he thinks he is better at anything on the offensive side of the ball than Markus.
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MU82
I noted Koby not wanting to pass the ball to Howard a few games ago. No idea if a chemistry problem or Koby feels he is a better option for the team to score.
I saw this a few times and I don't know if I blame Koby. There are times in games when Markus shoots so many times in a row that he ices his own team.
Having played on a team with a guy EXACTLY like Markus I know what it's like. I didn't have a problem with him taking most of the shots, but when he started thinking he should take all of the shots that became an issue. It was settled after the game in a less than pleasant manner. I don't want it to come to that with the players this year. Maybe if Sam had called Markus out earlier the situation wouldn't have escalated, and we wouldn't even be discussing Markus and Koby.
Regardless......it is what it is.
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Only two of the seven have experience playing big minutes in the BEast.
This years team actually has far less real experience than last years team.
Just another going away present from the Hausers to Marquette and its fans.
You need to get past this take. It's wrong. We have a wealth of good experience on this team. It's crazy to me that you continue to try to argue otherwise.
Theo was a starter all year last year and had to have averaged at least 20 mpg in conference play. Jamal was probably in the 15 mpg area as a freshman but took a step back last year with Joey on the roster. Ed didn't earn many minutes last year, but he's used to playing high major basketball from his time at Nebraska. And Jayce averaged 22 mpg in the Pac 12 last year. So all but 1 upperclassmen are used to playing meaningful minutes at the P6 level.
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I saw this a few times and I don't know if I blame Koby. There are times in games when Markus shoots so many times in a row that he ices his own team.
Having played on a team with a guy EXACTLY like Markus I know what it's like. I didn't have a problem with him taking most of the shots, but when he started thinking he should take all of the shots that became an issue. It was settled after the game in a less than pleasant manner. I don't want it to come to that with the players this year. Maybe if Sam had called Markus out earlier the situation wouldn't have escalated, and we wouldn't even be discussing Markus and Koby.
Regardless......it is what it is.
Or maybe the coach should actually be a coach and step in before it escalates. Just a thought.
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You need to get past this take. It's wrong. We have a wealth of good experience on this team. It's crazy to me that you continue to try to argue otherwise.
Theo was a starter all year last year and had to have averaged at least 20 mpg in conference play. Jamal was probably in the 15 mpg area as a freshman but took a step back last year with Joey on the roster. Ed didn't earn many minutes last year, but he's used to playing high major basketball from his time at Nebraska. And Jayce averaged 22 mpg in the Pac 12 last year. So all but 1 upperclassmen are used to playing meaningful minutes at the P6 level.
Actual game experience as a unit and continuity is important though. This team doesn't have a lot of guys that have played consistently with each other outside of the off-season. The experience lost with Sam's departure is not really accounted for.
The bigs definitely have experience, but four of our wings + backup PG have not played big-time minutes or at least for a while (Greg and Koby out). I still don't think it's much of an excuse.
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I agree that actual game experience as a unit matters. But we're halfway through the season. If Marquette is going to find a way to consistently play better as a team, it's now or never.
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Great take, Mike.
In an ideal world, it would be great if MH was taking 15 shots a game because that would mean other guys were making shot.
But complaining after a game that MH shot too much when the 3 front court starters went 3 for 21 is beyond ludicrous.
Yep. Lower usage for Markus would be great...if others were hitting their shots. But Markus is shooting constantly because others are getting chances and missing.
As one example, how on earth can Theo be shooting only 45.5% (0-3 Saturday) when he never shoots further than two feet from the hoop?!?
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Actual game experience as a unit and continuity is important though. This team doesn't have a lot of guys that have played consistently with each other outside of the off-season. The experience lost with Sam's departure is not really accounted for.
The bigs definitely have experience, but four of our wings + backup PG have not played big-time minutes or at least for a while (Greg and Koby out). I still don't think it's much of an excuse.
Playing together certainly helps. But our team lacks that year over year cohesion, partly by design. Wojo has regularly gone after transfers. That's been a key part of his recruiting strategy. As a result, we've often been in a position where the team may not be as cohesive as a team without transfers.
But college basketball is full of teams that have transfers and younger guys needing to adapt to a new style and new teammates. It's rare to have a 3 Amigos type class where the core of the team is used to playing together for most of their career.
I really viewed the age/experience of our team as an asset this year, but things aren't quite clicking like I had hoped just yet. Maybe some of the older guys will have a moment soon in which they realize this might be there last shot to make some noise in the NCAA, and that lights a fire in their bellies to make a push down the stretch. Fingers crossed!
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Yep. Lower usage for Markus would be great...if others were hitting their shots. But Markus is shooting constantly because others are getting chances and missing.
As one example, how on earth can Theo be shooting only 45.5% (0-3 Saturday) when he never shoots further than two feet from the hoop?!?
While Theo is a good shot blocker, he does play small offensively especially against taller/longer centers.
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Pretty much this. There is no clear-cut #2 which is a definite problem. I think it should be Anim because of experience and his skill set. Koby has a lot of physical tools but a low bbiq. Brendan by the end of the year will be a more obvious number 2 I think. We desperately need 1 or 2 guys that can create their own shot and drive well. McEwen must prove he can finish around the rim.
Oh, the second best offensive player is what everyone means.
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As one example, how on earth can Theo be shooting only 45.5% (0-3 Saturday) when he never shoots further than two feet from the hoop?!?
That one is easy. He needs surgery on his right hand.
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That one is easy. He needs surgery on his right hand.
It’s pretty crazy he’s still playing. The injury is taking a ton away from his game.
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MU82
I noted Koby not wanting to pass the ball to Howard a few games ago. No idea if a chemistry problem or Koby feels he is a better option for the team to score.
I'll have to watch for that in the future. I noticed it at SH but not earlier, and I didn't read very many threads the last several days.
As for Lenny's OP ... it appears that Bailey is turning into this team's second-best player. Solid defensively, grabs some tough boards, obviously worked on his shot. Looking forward to him getting even batter.
That said, I agree with those who said, "Whoever is on between Bailey, McEwen and Anim."
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I wonder if his improvement in part is due to coaching....nah...100% not because of coaching.
Could be. Also could be that he’s fully burned the rust off from the Mormon mission. Could be he’s 22 years old. Could be he wasn’t very good last year and didn’t have a long way to go to improve. Could be that he’s a talented former Top 100 recruit and son of a successful NBA player. Could be that this roster isn’t very talented after Markus.
And it could be coaching. Yet we have little evidence of player improvement during Wojo’s tenure.
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Playing together certainly helps. But our team lacks that year over year cohesion, partly by design. Wojo has regularly gone after transfers. That's been a key part of his recruiting strategy. As a result, we've often been in a position where the team may not be as cohesive as a team without transfers.
But college basketball is full of teams that have transfers and younger guys needing to adapt to a new style and new teammates. It's rare to have a 3 Amigos type class where the core of the team is used to playing together for most of their career.
I really viewed the age/experience of our team as an asset this year, but things aren't quite clicking like I had hoped just yet. Maybe some of the older guys will have a moment soon in which they realize this might be there last shot to make some noise in the NCAA, and that lights a fire in their bellies to make a push down the stretch. Fingers crossed!
Yeah I definitely agree with you there. I think unfortunately some of the experience has not carried over as we expected with transfers. I think that's part of a problem when some guys move to a power conference. Some can handle it like Rowsey, but others take a long time to adjust or never really do. You see teams with just as much turnover that continue to play extremely well.
Unfortunately some of the players this year lack the x-factor to make them key contributors. I don't particularly feel like many of the guys have a fire lit under them right now. Koby seems to play more frustrated than aggressive. Greg and Markus have heart. But nobody can play scared an expect to win.
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Could be. Also could be that he’s fully burned the rust off from the Mormon mission. Could be he’s 22 years old. Could be he wasn’t very good last year and didn’t have a long way to go to improve. Could be that he’s a talented former Top 100 recruit and son of a successful NBA player. Could be that this roster isn’t very talented after Markus.
And it could be coaching. Yet we have little evidence of player improvement during Wojo’s tenure.
Markus, Sam, Sacar, Rowsey, JJJ, now Bailey (among others) ... none of them improved?
Or they simply improved despite being de-motivated by the coaching staff?
We need a scorecard to keep track of who improved because the coaches worked with them and who improved despite the coaches working hard to ruin them.
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Could be. Also could be that he’s fully burned the rust off from the Mormon mission. Could be he’s 22 years old. Could be he wasn’t very good last year and didn’t have a long way to go to improve. Could be that he’s a talented former Top 100 recruit and son of a successful NBA player. Could be that this roster isn’t very talented after Markus.
And it could be coaching. Yet we have little evidence of player improvement during Wojo’s tenure.
Why of course. Players that don't improve = coaches. Players that do improve = something other than coaching. Got it.
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I agree that actual game experience as a unit matters. But we're halfway through the season. If Marquette is going to find a way to consistently play better as a team, it's now or never.
I agree. My response was intended to dispel the notion that the guys we have playing now have the same level of experience Sam had, and Joey would have had if they had returned. The fact is, we would have had 4 guys playing together who averaged 30 minutes a game, and all were key players in their roles. Now we have two. If Wojo can somehow get the Hausers replacements to replicate Sam and Joeys contributions to the team, not only should he not be fired..... He should be named coach of the year.
That last part was hyperbole, but not by much.
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Markus, Sam, Sacar, Rowsey, JJJ, now Bailey (among others) ... none of them improved?
Or they simply improved despite being de-motivated by the coaching staff?
We need a scorecard to keep track of who improved because the coaches worked with them and who improved despite the coaches working hard to ruin them.
Markus, Sam, Rowsey, all came into MU really well prepared and elite shooters. JJJ? 5 star recruit. O-Rating as fresh was virtually same as that as a Junior Senior. Had a horrendous first year under Wojo, not surprising. Greatly underperformed his talent.
Sacar? Yes. He’s a nice player who has made incremental progress over his 5-years at MU.
Players should get better over time while in a program, yet I’d say largely player development has been poor under Wojo.
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Markus, Sam, Rowsey, all came into MU really well prepared and elite shooters. JJJ? 5 star recruit. O-Rating as fresh was virtually same as that as a Junior Senior. Had a horrendous first year under Wojo, not surprising. Greatly underperformed his talent.
Sacar? Yes. He’s a nice player who has made incremental progress over his 5-years at MU.
Players should get better over time while in a program, yet I’d say largely player development has been poor under Wojo.
Dribble.
Now you're seeing why some of us don't like this place after losses.