Back to back games where he fouls out with 0 points, under 5 reb, in 14 min
What does he bring / is his problem?
- One game all year in double digit rebounds
- Fouled out 4 times this year
- 9 out of 16 games under 5 reb
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 11, 2020, 08:47:10 PM
Back to back games where he fouls out with 0 points, under 5 reb, in 14 min
What does he bring / is his problem?
- One game all year in double digit rebounds
- Fouled out 4 times this year
- 9 out of 16 games under 5 reb
IMO bringing Jayce in was a mistake.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 11, 2020, 08:48:50 PM
IMO bringing Jayce in was a mistake.
I don't agree, but even if there is some truth to that, then that's on John. Competition should bring out best in good players, not make them shrivel up.
Theo's potential value is what it was in the Villanova game, rim protector without the fouls as well as double digit rebounding. Both need to happen much more consistently.
Jayce has been our MVP big this year and its not even close, his defense n rebounding are vastly superior to theo n ed
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 11, 2020, 08:53:08 PM
I don't agree, but even if there is some truth to that, then that's on John. Competition should bring out best in good players, not make them shrivel up.
I never tried to play against monsters in division 1 with an injured hand. Grabbing rebounds might be more difficult, blocking shots could be painful, and scoring might be affected somewhat.
Never was a seven footer playing on a bum knee so I don't know how that affects a guys overall play either.
Oddly enough I've dealt with both playing in city league and I can tell you for a fact.... It doesn't make you better.
Theo john is a mans body in a mostly boys game. End of story. He has beef with little skill to back it up. Thats it
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 11, 2020, 09:08:02 PM
I never tried to play against monsters in division 1 with an injured hand. Grabbing rebounds might be more difficult, blocking shots could be painful, and scoring might be affected somewhat.
Never was a seven footer playing on a bum knee so I don't know how that affects a guys overall play either.
Oddly enough I've dealt with both playing in city league and I can tell you for a fact.... It doesn't make you better.
If he's that hurt, which is pure speculation, he should have taken a red shirt. Doesn't do any good to play through pain if you can't help your team at all.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 11, 2020, 09:02:30 PM
Jayce has been our MVP big this year and its not even close, his defense n rebounding are vastly superior to theo n ed
Just seems weird Theo can't bundle more boards as a Off The Bus 1st Team All American
Theo: 76 rebounds / 301 minutes / 16 games
Jayce: 65 rebounds / 158 minutes / 13 games
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 11, 2020, 09:02:30 PM
Jayce has been our MVP big this year and its not even close, his defense n rebounding are vastly superior to theo n ed
This is a very bad take. Jayce is an atrocious defender. I mean, he's terrible.
And now I've officially heard it all. Jayce is the MVP of this team. Let that sink in for a second. Seriously.......Let it sink in. 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 11, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
If he's that hurt, which is pure speculation, he should have taken a red shirt. Doesn't do any good to play through pain if you can't help your team at all.
Not pure speculation, hes been interviewed about it, torn ligament in his wrist that will require off season surgery
Quote from: jonny09 on January 11, 2020, 09:18:27 PM
And now I've officially heard it all. Jayce is the MVP of this team. Let that sink in for a second. Seriously.......Let it sink in. 🤷♂️🤦♂️
That was about to be my take. It was qualified with MU big, not team
Quote from: mu03eng on January 11, 2020, 09:22:12 PM
Not pure speculation, hes been interviewed about it, torn ligament in his wrist that will require off season surgery
Ok, I didn't see that. He should have redshirt. No good being a tough guy and playing through injury if you're a lousy player while doing so
He really is not that talented. Hes a true nba body type with little else upside.
Love Theo but right now he's worse than when he was a freshman. Injury, sminjury, I don't want to discount it, but he has not developed worth a darn. Again today it looked like he had a jam and took so long to gather himself he got a Spaulding sandwich. Not a lot of hope that things will be better next year.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 11, 2020, 09:36:27 PM
Love Theo but right now he's worse than when he was a freshman. Injury, sminjury, I don't want to discount it, but he has not developed worth a darn. Again today it looked like he had a jam and took so long to gather himself he got a Spaulding sandwich. Not a lot of hope that things will be better next year.
In my novice opinion, Theo seems to have developed some bad defensive habits that have really caught up to him. He's a pretty darn good rim protector, but I think beginning last year he started to almost bait guys into coming into the lane. And some of that baiting was intentionally sub-par defense, giving guys a chance to get to the rim where Theo would have a shot at a big block. And now I think some of that has become a little too common in his defense, and he's become used to playing out of position, which results in more fouls.
I do think the wrist injury is affecting his offensive game too. He was never a scoring machine, but he was at least good enough to hit open looks close to the rim and sometimes make a good move on his defender. I'm guessing the wrist is really slowing him down on offense.
Quote from: jonny09 on January 11, 2020, 09:18:27 PM
And now I've officially heard it all. Jayce is the MVP of this team. Let that sink in for a second. Seriously.......Let it sink in. 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Read it again....he didn't say that.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 11, 2020, 10:11:29 PM
so theo's feeling are hurt?
Actually the fact that he is injured changes my mind.
I have to think the injury is really limiting him. He was at least a somewhat reliable one on one post player in the past. I doubt that skill just disappeared, but he clearly hasn't shown that this year. As far as the D, there is no question he sells out for the block a bit too often, and teams are attacking the weak side boards or throwing lobs repeatedly to exploit his aggressiveness in looking for blocks. Our getting beat off the dribble and failing to rotate defensively to help him are also significant contributing factors.
Theo is the best big on this team. Period. He gets called for some of the absolute weakest touch fouls I recall in recent memory. He can't catch a break with the refs. Not much he can do when he comes in game and within 90 seconds gets called for a tick tack fouls that doesn't get called 90% of the time.
Wojo needs to light the refs up on some of these calls and lobby on Theo's behalf before games and in game. Every game.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 11, 2020, 09:53:42 PM
Read it again....he didn't say that.
Yes, of big men. Jayce and MVP should never be in the same sentence. Ever. This is a 7 footer who can't dunk. I'm not even sure he can jump.
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 11, 2020, 09:09:45 PM
Theo john is a mans body in a mostly boys game. End of story. He has beef with little skill to back it up. Thats it
Wrong. He is hurt. And his development has not been...robust. A common problem with teams over the last five years under Wojo.
Quote from: jonny09 on January 11, 2020, 09:16:05 PM
This is a very bad take. Jayce is an atrocious defender. I mean, he's terrible.
I think you are right about Jayce AND Jayce is our best big man. Hate to say it.
1) Theo playing with a torn ligament in his dominant hand (that requires surgery) means he's very limited, and not being asked to score much
2) Torrence, Cain, and Elliott look to feed the post much more than Howard, hence why the bigs often get some easy looks and our non-Howard guards gets assists when he's out. When Howard is in, John and Jayce's entire offensive role is setting picks.
3) Theo seems to get a lot of phantom calls. His 5th foul tonight was nothing at all. It seems every night that 2-3 of his fouls shouldn't be called.
Theo does a nice job for what his role is--rim protector. Listen to other teams' coaches gush about him and how he has to be a heavy part of game plans.
I appreciate the guy playing thru an injury. But, it is extremely disappointing that Theo can't figure out how to stay on the floor. 5 fouls in 14 minutes is nuts for an upperclassmen.
That said, in light of Theo's injury, the bigger issue is the play of Morrow. When he transferred-in it was assumed he was going to be an impact player for MU. Now, he's barely in the rotation. I have to wonder if Morrow doesn't wish that he had grad transferred out last spring.
Here is an alternative scenario: Start Jayce to protect Theo from foul trouble. Jayce has been a monster on both boards, and Theo is obviously limited offensively with his injury. Buzz used to do this with Jae.
Here is another idea: Start Sy. He is much more offensively efficient than Koby and he gets the whole team involved in the offense. His assist rate is off the charts, much, much higher than Koby's but with similar turnover rates. He is a bigger liability defensively than Koby, and judging by minutes, Wojo doesn't have much confidence in him. But, by starting him, he may get off to a better start, and Wojo can fit Koby in better situationally than Sy.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 12, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Here is an alternative scenario: Start Jayce to protect Theo from foul trouble. Jayce has been a monster on both boards, and Theo is obvious limited offensively with his injury. Buzz used to do this with Jae.
Here is another idea: Start Sy. He is much more offensively efficient than Koby and he gets the whole team involved in the offense. His assist rate is off the charts, much, much higher than Koby's but with similar turnover rates. He is a bigger liability defensively than Koby, and judging by minutes, Wojo doesn't have much confidence in him. But, by starting him, he may get off to a better start, and Wojo can fit Koby in better situationally than Sy.
If Koby hadn't had his two biggest games in our two biggest wins Maybe Symir would have been given more run. I think Wojo believes Koby can work himself back into a consistent scoring threat while still playing good defense.
I hope Symir is getting the message that good defense is rewarded with minutes.
skianth
Theo becoming an "elite" shot blocker has not helped his game, IMO. I stated last year that many of his blocks came after he was burned by his man or happened to be in the right place, by accident. It seems to me that he places too much emphasis on trying ways to block shots and not playing D on his man.
Quote from: RJax55 on January 12, 2020, 12:07:35 AM
That said, in light of Theo's injury, the bigger issue is the play of Morrow. When he transferred-in it was assumed he was going to be an impact player for MU. Now, he's barely in the rotation. I have to wonder if Morrow doesn't wish that he had grad transferred out last spring.
Such a great point. 10 & 8 as a Soph at Nebraska and then invisible since he arrived.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 12, 2020, 07:11:37 AM
Such a great point. 10 & 8 as a Soph at Nebraska and then invisible since he arrived.
Morrow would well be the biggest transfer bust of the Wojo era. It's baffling.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 12, 2020, 07:11:37 AM
Such a great point. 10 & 8 as a Soph at Nebraska and then invisible since he arrived.
Really have to wonder if those numbers were result of padding his stats in garbage time. What else logically explains being a 10/8 guy in Big Ten to being so ineffective at MU?
Quote from: Goose on January 12, 2020, 05:20:07 AM
skianth
Theo becoming an "elite" shot blocker has not helped his game, IMO. I stated last year that many of his blocks came after he was burned by his man or happened to be in the right place, by accident. It seems to me that he places too much emphasis on trying ways to block shots and not playing D on his man.
Theo is a physical specimen, easy guy to cheer for, but not a good basketball.player. I said that about his blocks last year. He is going for the highlight block at the expense of playing sound defense. He becomes out of position and it costs him rebounds. I thought coaching would correct it, I guess my expectations for what a coach should do were too high.
Quote from: 1SE on January 12, 2020, 07:17:06 AM
Morrow would well be the biggest transfer bust of the Wojo era. It's baffling.
Harry Froling was by far the worst. Joseph Chartouny wasn't very good either.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 12, 2020, 07:20:36 AM
Really have to wonder if those numbers were result of padding his stats in garbage time. What else logically explains being a 10/8 guy in Big Ten to being so ineffective at MU?
I think the answer here is simple...the year he averaged 10 & 8 for Nebraska, he was also AVERAGING almost 24 minutes per game. He hasn't come anywhere close to that at MU. Last year he averaged about 15 and this year so far he is at about 10. in 2016-17 his final year with Nebraska, the FEWEST minutes he played in any one game was 15..He had 14 games of 20+ minutes, 11 of those were 25+ minutes. Last year he only had 7 games of 20+ minutes for MU. In those games he averaged 6.5 PPG and about 7 boards a game. Not that much different from his 10/8 he averaged with Nebraska.
So really with Ed, the more minutes he gets, the more productive he will be. Honestly, none of them are great, but in his time at MU, Ed has at least shown that he CAN have big offensive games he had 4 double digit scoring games last year...not so coincidentally those were all games where he got 20+ minutes with the exception of 1 of those was a non conf game in which he got 18 minutes(close enough).
This year the only game he has even come close to playing 20 minutes in one game was Central Arkansas..again not so coincidentally that was also his highest scoring output at 11 and he also had 5 rebounds.
The more Ed Plays=the better he plays. The numbers bear that out...and yet, Wojo doesn't seem to understand that or care about it. Pretty simple stuff.
Ed CAN help you offensively, but he has to get the minutes...he just hasn't consistently with MU. Maybe it's time he starts getting them. His offensive production in those minutes could be very helpful. To me, he is the best offensive big of the 3(that's not saying much I know). Play him more..and he'll be more productive. The numbers say so
Quote from: muguru on January 12, 2020, 07:50:14 AM
I think the answer here is simple...the year he averaged 10 & 8 for Nebraska, he was also AVERAGING almost 24 minutes per game. He hasn't come anywhere close to that at MU. Last year he averaged about 15 and this year so far he is at about 10. in 2016-17 his final year with Nebraska, the FEWEST minutes he played in any one game was 15..He had 14 games of 20+ minutes, 11 of those were 25+ minutes. Last year he only had 7 games of 20+ minutes for MU. In those games he averaged 6.5 PPG and about 7 boards a game. Not that much different from his 10/8 he averaged with Nebraska.
So really with Ed, the more minutes he gets, the more productive he will be. Honestly, none of them are great, but in his time at MU, Ed has at least shown that he CAN have big offensive games he had 4 double digit scoring games last year...not so coincidentally those were all games where he got 20+ minutes with the exception of 1 of those was a non conf game in which he got 18 minutes(close enough).
This year the only game he has even come close to playing 20 minutes in one game was Central Arkansas..again not so coincidentally that was also his highest scoring output at 11 and he also had 5 rebounds.
The more Ed Plays=the better he plays. The numbers bear that out...and yet, Wojo doesn't seem to understand that or care about it. Pretty simple stuff.
Ed CAN help you offensively, but he has to get the minutes...he just hasn't consistently with MU. Maybe it's time he starts getting them. His offensive production in those minutes could be very helpful. To me, he is the best offensive big of the 3(that's not saying much I know). Play him more..and he'll be more productive. The numbers say so
If you use "per 40 minute" stats, he is about the same player as he was at Nebraska. (His scoring has dipped this year, but the rest are about the same.)
The reason he had more raw numbers at Nebraska is because he played more. He wasn't a better player because he played more.
Theo is injured.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 12, 2020, 07:20:36 AM
Really have to wonder if those numbers were result of padding his stats in garbage time. What else logically explains being a 10/8 guy in Big Ten to being so ineffective at MU?
Ah, maebee currant chitty coachin', hey?
I don't know, Ed's giving him a run for his money this year - plus the regression.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 12, 2020, 07:54:43 AM
If you use "per 40 minute" stats, he is about the same player as he was at Nebraska. (His scoring has dipped this year, but the rest are about the same.)
The reason he had more raw numbers at Nebraska is because he played more. He wasn't a better player because he played more.
That was entirely my point...ED hasn't been a bust for MU, he just hasn't played enough minutes to be as productive as he has shown he can be. If he plays more, his numbers will be there and people wouldn't be so hard on him. Theo hasn't shown me enough to where I wouldn't pull the plug, start Ed and bring Theo off the bench. Maybe that's what this team needs, a different player grouping to start the game or something.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 12, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Here is an alternative scenario: Start Jayce to protect Theo from foul trouble. Jayce has been a monster on both boards, and Theo is obviously limited offensively with his injury. Buzz used to do this with Jae.
Here is another idea: Start Sy. He is much more offensively efficient than Koby and he gets the whole team involved in the offense. His assist rate is off the charts, much, much higher than Koby's but with similar turnover rates. He is a bigger liability defensively than Koby, and judging by minutes, Wojo doesn't have much confidence in him. But, by starting him, he may get off to a better start, and Wojo can fit Koby in better situationally than Sy.
I said the same regarding JJ.
I would have given Ed the keys last season and run with it. Theo was not going to the answer, but Wojo ran with it. If Ed got the minutes his numbers would be much better. That said, he has been a disappointment IMO.
Quote from: muguru on January 12, 2020, 08:29:23 AM
That was entirely my point...ED hasn't been a bust for MU, he just hasn't played enough minutes to be as productive as he has shown he can be. If he plays more, his numbers will be there and people wouldn't be so hard on him. Theo hasn't shown me enough to where I wouldn't pull the plug, start Ed and bring Theo off the bench. Maybe that's what this team needs, a different player grouping to start the game or something.
Oh OK. I thought you were saying he would be more productive (on a per minute or per possession basis) if he played more.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 12, 2020, 08:31:52 AM
Oh OK. I thought you were saying he would be more productive (on a per minute or per possession basis) if he played more.
I think his per-minute production this year is pretty similar to what Frolling's was.
Quote from: jonny09 on January 11, 2020, 09:18:27 PM
And now I've officially heard it all. Jayce is the MVP of this team. Let that sink in for a second. Seriously.......Let it sink in. 🤷♂️🤦♂️
No one said that, but as usual you f'd up what you read. Seriously....let that sink in.
Quote from: muguru on January 12, 2020, 08:29:23 AM
That was entirely my point...ED hasn't been a bust for MU, he just hasn't played enough minutes to be as productive as he has shown he can be. If he plays more, his numbers will be there and people wouldn't be so hard on him. Theo hasn't shown me enough to where I wouldn't pull the plug, start Ed and bring Theo off the bench. Maybe that's what this team needs, a different player grouping to start the game or something.
I do wonder what the staff sees in Theo. He has not improved. I get the injury, and i that is the case Ed and JJ should be getting the minutes until he is better. It is hard to believe we have 3 bigs who struggle to put the ball in the basket.
Why is it that it seems there are so many timesour guys get beat off the dribble it ends in a dunk, but when Markus, sacar and Koby get in the lane, missed shots. Are our bigs not running to the rim?
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 12, 2020, 07:11:37 AM
Such a great point. 10 & 8 as a Soph at Nebraska and then invisible since he arrived.
I don't care to take the time to look it up, but anyone know if Morrow primarily played the 4 or the 5 at NE, and whether they had any other quality bigs that he would be out there with much?
Quote from: Goose on January 12, 2020, 08:31:43 AM
I would have given Ed the keys last season and run with it. Theo was not going to the answer, but Wojo ran with it. If Ed got the minutes his numbers would be much better. That said, he has been a disappointment IMO.
He's just way too small to play against the more physical teams. Great fit against Nova who plays a smaller 5 but he had no chance to defend the bigs from PC or SH.
Y'all really underappreciate what John does for this team defensively. He has the ability to alter an opponent's game plan by himself.
His rebounding and offense? That is a disappointment.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on January 12, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
Y'all really underappreciate what John does for this team defensively. He has the ability to alter an opponent's game plan by himself.
His rebounding and offense? That is a disappointment.
Biggest disappointment is his inability to stay on the floor. That's what really hurts us the most. He simply cannot be relied upon.