That was an entertaining game to watch from the standpoint of how it was a battle in the trenches. Lots of hustle, effort, both teams battled hard.
A few things caught my eye.
1. Howard dribbled the ball too much. - Several times he dribbled into double teams turning the ball over. As a senior you have to make better decisions than this and have more trust in your teammates. Eliminate just one of these costly mistakes and the result could be a W.
a. Howard's constant dribbling into double teams and in traffic stems from a lack of cohesion on offense. That is Wojo's fault. The ball should be moving
around much more to free up Howard and others. In the 1st Quarter MU largely had 1 touch on every possession until the 14:00 min mark. When they
started to move the ball around, some spots opened up underneath the hoop. Of course, the offense never tried to focus on this. It was largely sporadic
with ball movement, with very few touches.
b. The ball never goes into the paint. Again, you need to move the ball around to keep the defense honest. MU made it easier for Providence to guard them.
Paint touches!!! MU could have eliminated a few difficult possessions by just moving the ball around. Again, lost opportunity to coaching.
2. Huge Mistake by Wojo
a. On the last possession in regulation, Providence hit the 3 to tie it. Wojo would have been better off fouling since Providence had been shaky from the line. Not
to mention it forces Providence to foul again. Odds of winning here, increase dramatically. Another lost opportunity to coaching.
3. Recruiting - Jayce Johnson shouldn't be a rotational guy. He should only be playing in blowouts. There's no reason why you can't get a 3 star big man than can
play defense. Having him on the floor hurts you. He wouldn't have played on Crean, Buzz, Deane's teams in any of the rotations.
In Summary, if Wojo preached/enforced a tighter offense and moved the ball more they could have eliminated a few turnovers and gotten some easier looks. At a minimum, I counted 3 possessions where a more conservative take on offense could have limited Providence in transition and flipped the score a few baskets MU's way. Furthermore, all Wojo had to do was foul instead of letting Providence get a look at the 3 and put it into overtime. The game was lost in multiple spots and that's on Wojo's lack of fundamentals. The defense played well enough to win......the offense let the team down. The sad thing is that all of these issues are correctable - but here we are in year 6. This loss should have never happened. You can put dozens of other coaches in Wojo's chair and the end result is a W.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 08:58:18 PM
That was an entertaining game to watch from the standpoint of how it was a battle in the trenches. Lots of hustle, effort, both teams battled hard.
A few things caught my eye.
1. Howard dribbled the ball too much. - Several times he dribbled into double teams turning the ball over. As a senior you have to make better decisions than this and have more trust in your teammates. Eliminate just one of these costly mistakes and the result could be a W.
a. Howard's constant dribbling into double teams and in traffic stems from a lack of cohesion on offense. That is Wojo's fault. The ball should be moving
around much more to free up Howard and others. In the 1st Quarter MU largely had 1 touch on every possession until the 14:00 min mark. When they
started to move the ball around, some spots opened up underneath the hoop. Of course, the offense never tried to focus on this. It was largely sporadic
with ball movement, with very few touches.
b. The ball never goes into the paint. Again, you need to move the ball around to keep the defense honest. MU made it easier for Providence to guard them.
Paint touches!!! MU could have eliminated a few difficult possessions by just moving the ball around. Again, lost opportunity to coaching.
2. Huge Mistake by Wojo
a. On the last possession in regulation, Providence hit the 3 to tie it. Wojo would have been better off fouling since Providence had been shaky from the line. Not
to mention it forces Providence to foul again. Odds of winning here, increase dramatically. Another lost opportunity to coaching.
3. Recruiting - Jayce Johnson shouldn't be a rotational guy. He should only be playing in blowouts. There's no reason why you can't get a 3 star big man than can
play defense. Having him on the floor hurts you. He wouldn't have played on Crean, Buzz, Deane's teams in any of the rotations.
In Summary, if Wojo preached/enforced a tighter offense and moved the ball more they could have eliminated a few turnovers and gotten some easier looks. At a minimum, I counted 3 possessions where a more conservative take on offense could have limited Providence in transition and flipped the score a few baskets MU's way. Furthermore, all Wojo had to do was foul instead of letting Providence get a look at the 3 and put it into overtime. The game was lost in multiple spots and that's on Wojo's lack of fundamentals. The defense played well enough to win......the offense let the team down. The sad thing is that all of these issues are correctable - but here we are in year 6. This loss should have never happened. You can put dozens of other coaches in Wojo's chair and the end result is a W.
Lol.
After all your recent rants about wojos terrible defense.
You're such a clown.
This team misses Sam. Sam was a very legit option besides Markus.
Let this sink in. Wojo could be here for a decade and not have a tournament win. Thats only 4 years away.
Quote from: HowardsWorld on January 07, 2020, 09:03:41 PM
Let this sink in. Wojo could be here for a decade and not have a tournament win. Thats only 4 years away.
Let this sink in. Wojo could be here for a decade and have 4 national championships. That's only 4 years away.
Any other hypotheticals you want to discuss?
Quote from: GoldenZebra on January 07, 2020, 09:02:07 PM
This team misses Sam. Sam was a very legit option besides Markus.
This, 100%.
Glasses, I know you're controversial (and likely trying to be) and I know you provoke people on the board. Sometime I find some gold in your posts, sometimes not.
As to the post:
1. I agree. But poor Markus just does not get any help.
a. true
b. true
2. true
3. False.
It's true that JJ gets backed down more than 4 or 30, but it seems to me that he is a better rebounder and works harder. I shudder when he goes to the FT line. Theo has not developed worth a damn and Ed has had flashes, but not consistent performance. Our big situation is kind of a problem.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 07, 2020, 09:15:04 PM
Glasses, I know you're controversial (and likely trying to be) and I know you provoke people on the board. Sometime I find some gold in your posts, sometimes not.
As to the post:
1. I agree. But poor Markus just does not get any help.
a. true
b. true
2. true
3. False.
It's true that JJ gets backed down more than 4 or 30, but it seems to me that he is a better rebounder and works harder. I shudder when he goes to the FT line. Theo has not developed worth a damn and Ed has had flashes, but not consistent performance. Our big situation is kind of a problem.
Why doesn't Markus get help? Answer: Recruiting
Jayce is MidMajor talent at best. He's too much of a liability to play in meaningful portions of games. He costs you on the offensive side of the ball and allows the defense to execute double teams better.
Very odd game for anyone to rip on jayce. He played with effort and actually had some huge plays to keep MU in the game.
He shouldn't be playing? Well, I agree but unfortunately the other two bigs have not been good enough to eat up the 40 minutes.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 07, 2020, 09:05:52 PM
Let this sink in. Wojo could be here for a decade and have 4 national championships. That's only 4 years away.
Any other hypotheticals you want to discuss?
this is a joke, right?
MU had one timeout after they went up by 3. You got to foul with around 7 seconds left.
Jayce extended 5 possessions with offensive rebounds (9 boards in total) and added 3 assists. He was a positive contributor on the court. One of the few bright spots for Marquette, in my opinion.
Has anyone ever heard Wojo give one single piece of specific direction during the times he is mic'd up during a TV timeout?? It's always some BS about toughness or grit or some other useless platitude. Never once have I heard a specific offensive or defensive detail given to a single player or the team as a whole. SMH.
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 07, 2020, 09:24:23 PM
Jayce extended 5 possessions with offensive rebounds (9 boards in total) and added 3 assists. He was a positive contributor on the court. One of the few bright spots for Marquette, in my opinion.
And he was abused inside when Providence had the ball. As I stated before, he makes everyone's job tougher on the offensive side. He needs to go. Just because every time he grabs a rebound and the Hoosier Soundtrack starts playing in your mind doesn't mean he's good for the team.
Quote from: Cfollow on January 07, 2020, 09:37:05 PM
Has anyone ever heard Wojo give one single piece of specific direction during the times he is mic'd up during a TV timeout?? It's always some BS about toughness or grit or some other useless platitude. Never once have I heard a specific offensive or defensive detail given to a single player or the team as a whole. SMH.
Tonight I heard him specifically tell his team to move the ball and not just come down and shoot. That is specific, relevant coaching. Not that you would hear much he says that is strategy related for obvious reasons.
Quote from: Cfollow on January 07, 2020, 09:37:05 PM
Has anyone ever heard Wojo give one single piece of specific direction during the times he is mic'd up during a TV timeout?? It's always some BS about toughness or grit or some other useless platitude. Never once have I heard a specific offensive or defensive detail given to a single player or the team as a whole. SMH.
The deal is that during these "in the huddle" moments, coaches deliberately do not give any strategy and just say boilerplate stuff because they have to for FOX. It's dumb and I wish they would stop but it's not something to get worked up about.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 07, 2020, 09:41:12 PM
Tonight I heard him specifically tell his team to move the ball and not just come down and shoot. That is specific, relevant coaching. Not that you would hear much he says that is strategy related for obvious reasons.
And.......they didn't - because the issue isn't forced in practice. This is another example of poor coaching. Had they moved the ball around, they would have won tonight.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 09:44:11 PM
And.......they didn't - because the issue isn't forced in practice. This is another example of poor coaching. Had they moved the ball around, they would have won tonight.
Like you know what happens in practice...unless you've been talking with Herman...
This came up a little bit in the game thread, but what was the deal with playing Markus so much in the final 2 minutes? He looked like he was in pain, and there were a few times that you could see his leg give out when he tried to move quickly. I was thinking Wojo would had put in Jamal or Greg to give Markus some rest and eliminate a potential weak link on defense.
I know Greg was banged up today too, but some relief for Markus in the final minutes probably would have given us more energy on defense. Then Wojo could have used the 2 timeouts he had to get Markus back in the game for offense.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 07, 2020, 09:57:42 PM
Like you know what happens in practice...unless you've been talking with Herman...
With what we've seen in games so far this year, I'd be very surprised if ball movement and players moving off the ball on offense is a focal point in practice. Those are big time weaknesses right now.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 07, 2020, 10:01:52 PM
With what we've seen in games so far this year, I'd be very surprised if ball movement and players moving off the ball on offense is a focal point in practice. Those are big time weaknesses right now.
Yeah...no. I'm pretty sure even in a couple of the mic'd huddles that have been widely criticized, Wojo has screamed "MOVE THE BALL. LOOK FOR THE OPEN MAN"
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 07, 2020, 10:03:59 PM
Yeah...no. I'm pretty sure even in a couple of the mic'd huddles that have been widely criticized, Wojo has screamed "MOVE THE BALL. LOOK FOR THE OPEN MAN"
It just seems weird that the team would so regularly do the exact opposite of what is being drilled into them in practice then. It's not like we have stretches where we struggle with this. It's a constant issue. It really does seem like something the guys aren't used to doing.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 09:40:15 PM
And he was abused inside when Providence had the ball. As I stated before, he makes everyone's job tougher on the offensive side. He needs to go. Just because every time he grabs a rebound and the Hoosier Soundtrack starts playing in your mind doesn't mean he's good for the team.
Exactly!! He is not the type of player you win with. If people can't see this they don't know basketball. His cons outweigh his pros. It's not a winning recipe.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 07, 2020, 10:09:47 PM
It just seems weird that the team would so regularly do the exact opposite of what is being drilled into them in practice then. It's not like we have stretches where we struggle with this. It's a constant issue. It really does seem like something the guys aren't used to doing.
I get it. We see these glimpses of them playing as a team, and they look awesome. So, we figure "why can't they always play that way". But watching a LOT of college hoops, you realize most teams are like that. Moment's of awesomeness, and lots of doing things that aren't very good decisions.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 07, 2020, 09:57:42 PM
Like you know what happens in practice...unless you've been talking with Herman...
If you can't control what your players do on the court, especially when your star player is a senior.....then you're not a good coach. The message isn't getting across to players for some reason or another. Not enough is being done.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 10:19:40 PM
If you can't control what your players do on the court, especially when your star player is a senior.....then you're not a good coach. The message isn't getting across to players for some reason or another. Not enough is being done.
Well, the "not a good coach" though his team was impatient, and didn't execute the game plan
https://www.youtube.com/embed/TYqFMhHIl-g?start=210
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 07, 2020, 10:53:09 PM
Well, the "not a good coach" though his team was impatient, and didn't execute the game plan
https://www.youtube.com/TYqFMhHIl-g?start=210
I'm telling ya Rocky... if they had a better coach they might win a few more games a year just based on in game coaching alone. What I am curious about though and you alluded to it a bit is..... what are the practices like? I'd like to see the difference between a wojo practice and a bo ryan/tony bennett one for example. That'd be an interesting contrast.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
I'm telling ya Rocky... if they had a better coach they might win a few more games a year just based on in game coaching alone.
Oh, I don't disagree!
;D
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on January 07, 2020, 09:21:37 PM
MU had one timeout after they went up by 3. You got to foul with around 7 seconds left.
I don't agree you foul with 7 seconds left. At that point, they aren't forced to miss. You can make both free throws and make MU have to inbound. If MU misses a free throw, 5 seconds is enough for a good look to win.
I think the number has to be closer to 3-4 seconds.
Quote from: GoldenZebra on January 07, 2020, 09:02:07 PM
This team misses Sam. Sam was a very legit option besides Markus.
They miss Dwyane Wade too. That's about as relevant.
The roster we have is 90% mid major talent level. We lost our two other high major type players ( and joey had yet to prove that).
Bailey our second best player ......... ish
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 08, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
The roster we have is 90% mid major talent level. We lost our two other high major type players ( and joey had yet to prove that).
Bailey our second best player ......... ish
They're missing a Power Forward and another PG for sure. That'd clean up all the holes in the rotation, giving the balance they're missing, and take pressure off of Howard.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 08, 2020, 09:08:48 AM
They're missing a Power Forward and another PG for sure. That'd clean up all the holes in the rotation, giving the balance they're missing, and take pressure off of Howard.
I'm just going to say it and I know I'll get hammered for it, but I think Rowsey and Howard and their free reign is a big reason why we don't have more, better complimentary players. If I was recruiting against Marquette the last couple years, I'd be saying "Rowsey and Howard control the ball and always look to call their own number first and the coaches apparently want that, and Hauser gets whatever scraps are left. You want to be the post on that team, and just set screens all day and beg for a pass that never comes? You want to be the third or fourth wheel on that bus? Have fun with that."
Quote from: MU2007 on January 07, 2020, 09:06:07 PM
This, 100%.
I feel like this is easy to forget for a lot of fans. Sam is/was looking like a borderline NBA player for a while. Losing him has definitely hurt. Not as much Joey. But if Sam were still around people would not be calling for Wojo's head nearly as much. And it seems Sam may still be around if his brother never joined the team.
Where were you on Saturday when we beat Nova bullet pointing all of Wojo's strengths? Just asking. We lost by one point, but for you getting rid of Wojo and starting all over is the better option. We know your opinion, but the season is not over. A loss at Creighton does not mean a loss over Nova any more than a win over Nova meant a win over Providence. My expectations for this season after the Hausers quit the team are not high, but are playing better than I expected so far.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 08, 2020, 09:45:16 AM
I'm just going to say it and I know I'll get hammered for it, but I think Rowsey and Howard and their free reign is a big reason why we don't have more, better complimentary players. If I was recruiting against Marquette the last couple years, I'd be saying "Rowsey and Howard control the ball and always look to call their own number first and the coaches apparently want that, and Hauser gets whatever scraps are left. You want to be the post on that team, and just set screens all day and beg for a pass that never comes? You want to be the third or fourth wheel on that bus? Have fun with that."
So we better not land Mane, it will hurt future recruiting; not to mention Dawson will transfer at mid season because Mane will hog the ball. Not that Mane will ever be as prolific a scorer as Markus.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 08, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
Where were you on Saturday when we beat Nova bullet pointing all of Wojo's strengths? Just asking. We lost by one point, but for you getting rid of Wojo and starting all over is the better option. We know your opinion, but the season is not over. A loss at Creighton does not mean a loss over Nova any more than a win over Nova meant a win over Providence. My expectations for this season after the Hausers quit the team are not high, but are playing better than I expected so far.
If you knew anything about basketball, you'd realize that what I posted is all self inflicted.... That's on the coach and isn't a hallmark of what we're used to here at MU.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 08, 2020, 10:28:37 AM
So we better not land Mane, it will hurt future recruiting; not to mention Dawson will transfer at mid season because Mane will hog the ball. Not that Mane will ever be as prolific a scorer as Markus.
I don't recall seeing a college player dominate the ball and call his number more than Markus does (Rowsey was up there and I never saw Pete Maravich in college). I would not worry about it with the next guy. Seriously, if you were a prime post player, would you have wanted to come to MU the last couple years?
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 08, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
The roster we have is 90% mid major talent level. We lost our two other high major type players ( and joey had yet to prove that).
Bailey our second best player ......... ish
I agree with many things you say but this isn't one. The talent here is above mid-major. It's "putting players in a position to win" that is the problem.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 08, 2020, 09:45:16 AM
I'm just going to say it and I know I'll get hammered for it, but I think Rowsey and Howard and their free reign is a big reason why we don't have more, better complimentary players. If I was recruiting against Marquette the last couple years, I'd be saying "Rowsey and Howard control the ball and always look to call their own number first and the coaches apparently want that, and Hauser gets whatever scraps are left. You want to be the post on that team, and just set screens all day and beg for a pass that never comes? You want to be the third or fourth wheel on that bus? Have fun with that."
The comment about being a post player who waits for a pass that never comes is spot on.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on January 08, 2020, 05:12:41 PM
The comment about being a post player who waits for a pass that never comes is spot on.
They better get Diaz the ball or he'll be in the transfer portal in no time.
Quote from: GoldenZebra on January 07, 2020, 09:02:07 PM
This team misses Sam. Sam was a very legit option besides Markus.
Damn, never thought about it that way
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 08, 2020, 05:17:04 PM
They better get Diaz the ball or he'll be in the transfer portal in no time.
Who is Diaz? Is he an architect too?
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 08, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
The roster we have is 90% mid major talent level. We lost our two other high major type players ( and joey had yet to prove that).
Bailey our second best player ......... ish
So our coaching staff has willed wins over all these high major programs with 90% of a roster of high mid major players?
You sure you want to go down arguing that logic?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2020, 06:19:58 PM
Who is Diaz? Is he an architect too?
*Garcia when he gets here
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 08, 2020, 09:45:16 AM
I'm just going to say it and I know I'll get hammered for it, but I think Rowsey and Howard and their free reign is a big reason why we don't have more, better complimentary players. If I was recruiting against Marquette the last couple years, I'd be saying "Rowsey and Howard control the ball and always look to call their own number first and the coaches apparently want that, and Hauser gets whatever scraps are left. You want to be the post on that team, and just set screens all day and beg for a pass that never comes? You want to be the third or fourth wheel on that bus? Have fun with that."
True..... But did giving those guys free reign entice Symir, Dawson, Osa, Lewis, and perhaps Karim?
Is there some method to Wojos madness?
Quote from: Cheeks on January 08, 2020, 06:30:03 PM
So our coaching staff has willed wins over all these high major programs with 90% of a roster of high mid major players?
You sure you want to go down arguing that logic?
Lol. Makes Wojo one of the greatest of all time?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 08, 2020, 07:31:21 PM
Lol. Makes Wojo one of the greatest of all time?
Apparently so...how else to explain it
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 08, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
The roster we have is 90% mid major talent level. We lost our two other high major type players ( and joey had yet to prove that).
Bailey our second best player ......... ish
This must be challenged. MU talent has improved and I believe is far more talented than PC. These are not "mid-major" guys. Even the one I rip on the most (Morrow) is a legit 8th or 9th man on nearly any 10-40 ranked D1 team and would get minutes because he hustles and hits the boards.
How many of MU players would start on a top 1-15 team? Probably 3 (Markus, Sacar, BB) and definitely 2 of those 3.
Do a couple of them have confidence problems at the moment? Yes
Could that be due to the coaching? Yes
Is MU getting the most out of Greg/Jamal/Ed/Theo/Koby? Not every day... but this is not about the talent level. Not at all.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 09, 2020, 12:08:18 AM
This must be challenged. MU talent has improved and I believe is far more talented than PC. These are not "mid-major" guys. Even the one I rip on the most (Morrow) is a legit 8th or 9th man on nearly any 10-40 ranked D1 team and would get minutes because he hustles and hits the boards.
How many of MU players would start on a top 1-15 team? Probably 3 (Markus, Sacar, BB) and definitely 2 of those 3.
Do a couple of them have confidence problems at the moment? Yes
Could that be due to the coaching? Yes
Is MU getting the most out of Greg/Jamal/Ed/Theo/Koby? Not every day... but this is not about the talent level. Not at all.
Fully agree. A guy who is about the 8th guy for MU. Ed Morrow.
From his bio at Nebraska:
2016-17 (Sophomore)
Despite a foot injury which has limited him for a good chunk of Big Ten play, sophomore Ed Morrow Jr. has made significant strides during his sophomore campaign. The 6-foot-7 forward
raised his scoring average from 4.1 points to 9.4 points per game on 51 percent shooting, while pacing the Huskers in both rebounds (7.5) and blocked shots (1.1), as he appeared in 24 contests.I dont think its the talent...
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2020, 06:13:43 AM
Fully agree. A guy who is about the 8th guy for MU. Ed Morrow.
From his bio at Nebraska:
2016-17 (Sophomore)
Despite a foot injury which has limited him for a good chunk of Big Ten play, sophomore Ed Morrow Jr. has made significant strides during his sophomore campaign. The 6-foot-7 forward raised his scoring average from 4.1 points to 9.4 points per game on 51 percent shooting, while pacing the Huskers in both rebounds (7.5) and blocked shots (1.1), as he appeared in 24 contests.
I dont think its the talent...
Then the pointer points to the coaching.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 09, 2020, 06:52:18 AM
Then the pointer points to the coaching.
I agree with this analysis
Quote from: willie warrior on January 09, 2020, 06:52:18 AM
Then the pointer points to the coaching.
...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right? That's cuz of other things? Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next? Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical
Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4. His BPM at MU is 3.4. He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 09, 2020, 03:26:46 PM
...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right? That's cuz of other things? Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next? Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical
Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4. His BPM at MU is 3.4. He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.
There is this thing called growth. It happens between the ages of 18-22 in college. You get bigger, wiser, and more experienced naturally. Is your BPM adjusted for age increases? No, it's not. You do know he's a senior now, not a sophomore? Huge difference. Of course his BPM would rise at MU. Talk about a cherry picked stat if I've ever seen one.
Please do explain his 45.5% FG ....career worst this year.
Also, please explain why MU as a whole is one of the worst shooting teams inside the paint in the Big East this year.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26ybwvTX4DTkwst6U/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Cheeks on January 09, 2020, 03:26:46 PM
...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right? That's cuz of other things? Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next? Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical
Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4. His BPM at MU is 3.4. He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.
So Bailey's performance is because of Wojo's coaching. Then Joeys performance and unhappiness was also due to Wojo's coaching, Cheeky, you must wear knee pads when it comes to Wojo.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 09, 2020, 04:10:37 PM
There is this thing called growth. It happens between the ages of 18-22 in college. You get bigger, wiser, and more experienced naturally. Is your BPM adjusted for age increases? No, it's not. You do know he's a senior now, not a sophomore? Huge difference. Of course his BPM would rise at MU. Talk about a cherry picked stat if I've ever seen one.
Please do explain his 45.5% FG ....career worst this year.
Also, please explain why MU as a whole is one of the worst shooting teams inside the paint in the Big East this year.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26ybwvTX4DTkwst6U/giphy.gif)
Well let's see....Jayce messed his knee up right before the season and it still doesn't look right, Theo has a hand injury, and Morrow is a 6-7 forward with limited post up skills and touch around the rim. This doesn't mean I'm giving up on any of them. Jayce contributed against PC ,and I expect Theo and Ed to contribute in upcoming games. They are who we thought they were.
Not to mention that there are and should be better options on the floor at most times.
The guys I was expecting to pick up the scoring load ( Markus, Bailey, Sacar, and Koby ), have done so. They just need to do better.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 09, 2020, 04:28:22 PM
So Bailey's performance is because of Wojo's coaching. Then Joeys performance and unhappiness was also due to Wojo's coaching, Cheeky, you must wear knee pads when it comes to Wojo.
Lol. You will notice I asked the question why the downside is always on Wojo and the upside never is. I think some players get better just from getting stronger, more experienced, mature. Some make bigger incremental gains because of the coaches, but impossible to gauge. I just found it funny how you only see it one way. We have an All American on our team that no way anyone here thought would reach those levels when he came here. Did Wojo have 0% to do with that? 5%? 10%? Etc
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 09, 2020, 04:10:37 PM
There is this thing called growth. It happens between the ages of 18-22 in college. You get bigger, wiser, and more experienced naturally. Is your BPM adjusted for age increases? No, it's not. You do know he's a senior now, not a sophomore? Huge difference. Of course his BPM would rise at MU. Talk about a cherry picked stat if I've ever seen one.
Please do explain his 45.5% FG ....career worst this year.
Also, please explain why MU as a whole is one of the worst shooting teams inside the paint in the Big East this year.
Yes, some of that is growth...maturity, strength, experience, etc. I agree 100%. Some kids plateau. Some kids take bigger jumps than they would normally take if not for that "BAU" growth. Impossible to measure and you know that.
You pick on FG% as career worse....based on what I have seen him play he is having trouble putting it in the basket, especially around the rim. Explain his career high assists or steals per game, FT% at MU vs Nebraska stint? I mean we can cherry pick stats all day if it makes you feel better.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 09, 2020, 05:24:22 PM
Yes, some of that is growth...maturity, strength, experience, etc. I agree 100%. Some kids plateau. Some kids take bigger jumps than they would normally take if not for that "BAU" growth. Impossible to measure and you know that.
You pick on FG% as career worse....based on what I have seen him play he is having trouble putting it in the basket, especially around the rim. Explain his career high assists or steals per game, FT% at MU vs Nebraska stint? I mean we can cherry pick stats all day if it makes you feel better.
And here is where I win again. Let's take a look at all of the players that Wojo has put into the NBA. We will even do Overseas players. How many of those that have made it has Wojo recruited from right out of high school? That is the report card of player development, not some random statistic on how a transfer is performing on the bench. Let's take a look at how many recruits Wojo has had, that have not developed to have success. I can guarantee the ratio of failure under his watch is more than any other MU coach in history.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 09, 2020, 06:34:10 PM
And here is where I win again. Let's take a look at all of the players that Wojo has put into the NBA. We will even do Overseas players. How many of those that have made it has Wojo recruited from right out of high school? That is the report card of player development, not some random statistic on how a transfer is performing on the bench. Let's take a look at how many recruits Wojo has had, that have not developed to have success. I can guarantee the ratio of failure under his watch is more than any other MU coach in history.
Ok...Notable HS recruits from here...
http://www.barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Steve%20Wojciechowski
Of those that are out of college...
Henry Ellenson - NBA
Duane Wilson - Nürnberg Falcons BC
Sandy Cohen III - Maccabi Tel Aviv of the Israeli Premier League
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School
Seems all good to me.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 09, 2020, 11:33:16 PM
Ok...Notable HS recruits from here...
http://www.barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Steve%20Wojciechowski
Of those that are out of college...
Henry Ellenson - NBA
Duane Wilson - Nürnberg Falcons BC
Sandy Cohen III - Maccabi Tel Aviv of the Israeli Premier League
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School
Seems all good to me.
Duane Wilson was not a Wojo recruit. Calling Sandy a Wojo recruit is a stretch. Also, both of those players transferred before finishing their eligibility at Marquette.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 09, 2020, 11:41:00 PM
Duane Wilson was not a Wojo recruit. Calling Sandy a Wojo recruit is a stretch. Also, both of those players transferred before finishing their eligibility at Marquette.
OK, fully agree on Duane. However, he never played a game for Buzz, so I count that as development by Wojo.
Sandy definitely recommitted to Wojo. But if you want to take him off the books. Fine.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 09, 2020, 06:34:10 PM
How many of those that have made it has Wojo recruited from right out of high school? That is the report card of player development, not some random statistic on how a transfer is performing on the bench.
Ok, so now we go by the letter of MDDG rule, and remove the ones you say weren't Wojo recruits.
Henry Ellenson - NBA
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School
50% NBA, 50% Juris Doctorate ambitions.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 10, 2020, 12:17:30 AM
OK, fully agree on Duane. However, he never played a game for Buzz, so I count that as development by Wojo.
Sandy definitely recommitted to Wojo. But if you want to take him off the books. Fine.
Ok, so now we go by the letter of MDDG rule, and remove the ones you say weren't Wojo recruits.
Henry Ellenson - NBA
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School
50% NBA, 50% Juris Doctorate ambitions.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0O5C3SEYv7wewZ7W/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Cheeks on January 09, 2020, 03:26:46 PM
...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right? That's cuz of other things? Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next? Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical
Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4. His BPM at MU is 3.4. He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.
Your skewing the argument. I was merely responding to people trying to blame the players to protect Wojo. Many insinuating that other than Markus we have "mid major talent". Which of course if complete and utter nonsense. It wasnt a statement about player development. Rather the ability of a player. A player that is now doing almost nothing...
For me and most of the people I talk to that are MU fans, they seems to support Wojo and think he is doing a good job. Yes we want yearly NCAA runs. Yes, Wojo has some weaknesses. Which coach doesn't. I'll say this, the coach that doesn't is not coming to coach at MU.
We have to remember that these MU boards represent a fringe fanatical element of a fringe and not the average MU basketball fan or MU supporter. And that most of us, such as myself, are not too vocal, even though many of us like where the program is at now.
Context counts, and a lot of people at MU and alumni have the basketball team way down the list of priorities. They see MU as a university first and foremost dedicated to teaching first, research second, etc. Imagine that and remember that when all that matters to you is winning and NCAA runs. You are not the average fan nor the average MU supporter. We are a fringe element of a fringe on here. The nuts, frankly. So, I guess we should expect nutty views.
What is missing now is, a nice run in the tournament. Other than that, I have no complaints at all and think the program has been put on the correct course. Recruiting, check. Clean program, check. Good citizens, check. Avoiding the negative newspaper stuff, check. Avoiding the crime blotter and news coverage, check. Positive media coverage, check. Student athletes, check. Accountability, check. Clean image, check. Winning, check. NCAA run, Negative.
My understanding is that the administration looks at the program and where it was and where it is now. A big positive. Ya, everyone wants to win an NCAA title, Final Fours, but come on, if that the the primary goal at any cost, not happening at MU.
I'm willing to give him time as he has shown a lot on how a program at MU should be run. A few vocal minority on here, who represent part of the fringe, seem to only care about NCAA runs and wins and more wins. Not the way it should happen at MU and as we've seen, administration won't support a team that wins but is not part of the university and doesn't check the other boxes. Gotta be student athletes and part of the university.
And there are those who think we can go out and poach a highly successful coach. Never has happened, unlikely to happen now. Get over it. Our best bet it to have a coach that checks the boxes and wins. Not an easy task in today college environment. And I suspect it is going to get tougher now that big boosters can essentially legally pay players as part of an advertisement campaign. I don't think the NCAA is going to say that some Memphis FedEx booster is over paying a kid for his image @ 1M a year as part of a FedEx campaign. Come to Memphis and get paid 1M a year legally. Heck, 1M may be too little especially if KY is also recruiting the kid. Maybe Dick Strong will come back - but I doubt that. I suspect that any payments to players will be more in line with actual value for MU, which will make it even harder to compete with certain schools.
In short, I am satisfied where we are at. And since the OP has stared many threads on essentially the same topic, some of us more quiet one's need to say hold off, relax, positive direction and a lot to like. A negative, yes. Perfect, no. But perfect is not walking through that door. Well maybe Doc will retire to coach at MU, but even that has has many question marks on how it would work out.
Quote from: GOO on January 10, 2020, 08:31:16 AM
Context counts, and a lot of people at MU and alumni have the basketball team way down the list of priorities. They see MU as a university first and foremost dedicated to teaching first, research second, etc. Imagine that and remember that when all that matters to you is winning and NCAA runs. You are not the average fan nor the average MU supporter. We are a fringe element of a fringe on here. The nuts, frankly. So, I guess we should expect nutty views.
What is missing now is, a nice run in the tournament. Other than that, I have no complaints at all and think the program has been put on the correct course. Recruiting, check. Clean program, check. Good citizens, check. Avoiding the negative newspaper stuff, check. Avoiding the crime blotter and news coverage, check. Positive media coverage, check. Student athletes, check. Accountability, check. Clean image, check. Winning, check. NCAA run, Negative.
I'm willing to give him time as he has shown a lot on how a program at MU should be run. A few vocal minority on here, who represent part of the fringe, seem to only care about NCAA runs and wins and more wins. Not the way it should happen at MU and as we've seen, administration won't support a team that wins but is not part of the university and doesn't check the other boxes. Gotta be student athletes and part of the university.
Lots of things to address here:
For starters, those who are fans of a university's sports teams are not the fringe. Basketball is a huge part of Marquette's identity, hence the significant investment. Who's the highest paid employee at the university? That should tell you something right there about the importance of athletics, basketball in particular.
In your list of boxes that are checked, they're pretty much all just having a clean program. You just repeated a bunch of different ways to describe it. Listing out cons in the same way wouldn't make that argument any more persuasive either. Having a clean program matters, but it's not like it's unheard of to win while having a clean program. Just look at some of the other members of the Big East. I don't think Wojo stands out in this regard. He's just one of hundreds of coaches doing the right thing.
Wojo absolutely has run a clean program, but if that's his biggest pro, then he's not ready for a role like MU yet, in my opinion. I know I've harped on this before, but we've seen a lot of talent walk out the door since he's come here. Losing the Hausers was a huge deal and really set us back for this season. As far as winning goes, he's had some OK to good seasons, but I think most here would agree we expected to be in a better place by year 5 or 6 than we are right now.
To say only a minority care about getting more wins is wrong, not just for Marquette basketball but for any sports fan. Why even watch the games if you don't want to see MU win? Wojo is a basketball coach. His job is to win basketball games. And a big part of that is winning in the postseason. How many banners do you see in the rafters for 25 win seasons? Do you see any for academic All-Americans? I know I've never seen a banner for 10 years without an NCAA infraction. Those things are definitely great accomplishments, but they fall short of the basketball-related goals most coaches and players are striving for.
That's enough from me for now.
TL;DR - Hundreds of coaches run clean programs, that's not special. Winning matters to more people than GOO might think.
I'd say running a clean program has to do with NCAA rules. The other items are distinguishable and of a different nature going to character of the institution and individual and then coverage of the same, etc.
Heck Bo Ryan likely ran a clean program as far as the NCAA was concerned, with a few slip ups along the way (and maybe some big ones at the end), but he sure missed the student-athlete part of it, and missed some of the character issues that were kept under the table. But the program was probably clean.
Quote from: GOO on January 10, 2020, 01:45:13 PM
I'd say running a clean program has to do with NCAA rules. The other items are distinguishable and of a different nature going to character of the institution and individual and then coverage of the same, etc.
Heck Bo Ryan likely ran a clean program as far as the NCAA was concerned, with a few slip ups along the way (and maybe some big ones at the end), but he sure missed the student-athlete part of it, and missed some of the character issues that were kept under the table. But the program was probably clean.
Moral Superiority makes me sleep better too!
Quote from: skianth16 on January 10, 2020, 09:08:33 AM
Lots of things to address here:
For starters, those who are fans of a university's sports teams are not the fringe. Basketball is a huge part of Marquette's identity, hence the significant investment. Who's the highest paid employee at the university? That should tell you something right there about the importance of athletics, basketball in particular.
In your list of boxes that are checked, they're pretty much all just having a clean program. You just repeated a bunch of different ways to describe it. Listing out cons in the same way wouldn't make that argument any more persuasive either. Having a clean program matters, but it's not like it's unheard of to win while having a clean program. Just look at some of the other members of the Big East. I don't think Wojo stands out in this regard. He's just one of hundreds of coaches doing the right thing.
Wojo absolutely has run a clean program, but if that's his biggest pro, then he's not ready for a role like MU yet, in my opinion. I know I've harped on this before, but we've seen a lot of talent walk out the door since he's come here. Losing the Hausers was a huge deal and really set us back for this season. As far as winning goes, he's had some OK to good seasons, but I think most here would agree we expected to be in a better place by year 5 or 6 than we are right now.
To say only a minority care about getting more wins is wrong, not just for Marquette basketball but for any sports fan. Why even watch the games if you don't want to see MU win? Wojo is a basketball coach. His job is to win basketball games. And a big part of that is winning in the postseason. How many banners do you see in the rafters for 25 win seasons? Do you see any for academic All-Americans? I know I've never seen a banner for 10 years without an NCAA infraction. Those things are definitely great accomplishments, but they fall short of the basketball-related goals most coaches and players are striving for.
That's enough from me for now.
TL;DR - Hundreds of coaches run clean programs, that's not special. Winning matters to more people than GOO might think.
This. Perfectly stated. We have the name of Al McGuire all over our program, and his players weren't all choir boys and many would have never been admitted to MU without basketball.
Considering the big push in academia/universities to promote diversity and inclusion, oddly it seems apparent that some in MU Admin and fanbase feel we should only welcome kids who come into the university without any personal or familial hardships. Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 10, 2020, 02:20:20 PM
This. Perfectly stated. We have the name of Al McGuire all over our program, and his players weren't all choir boys and many would have never been admitted to MU without basketball.
Considering the big push in academia/universities to promote diversity and inclusion, oddly it seems apparent that some in MU Admin and fanbase feel we should only welcome kids who come into the university without any personal or familial hardships. Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds.
Who said Marquette doesn't want players with personal or familial hardships? You don't need to exaggerate.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 10, 2020, 02:30:30 PM
Who said Marquette doesn't want players with personal or familial hardships? You don't need to exaggerate.
There's at least one poster on here who's suggested that we should no longer go after "at risk" type players, and that the program is better off because Wojo has thus far not pursued them.
'Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds'
I didn't say this and didn't imply this and didn't mean this. You're putting your own bias into this one. What you state is not what MU or I want.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 10, 2020, 02:30:30 PM
Who said Marquette doesn't want players with personal or familial hardships? You don't need to exaggerate.
Quote from: GOO on January 10, 2020, 02:51:50 PM
'Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds'
I didn't say this and didn't imply this and didn't mean this. You're putting your own bias into this one. What you state is not what MU or I want.
Would you agree that this whole "clean program" focus started 7 years ago under Larry Williams/Pilarz? This came on the heels of us having a number of JUCO's, and other academically challenged kids. Many feel Wojo can't even recruit JUCO's.
We raised academic entrance standards above NCAA minimums (what does that achieve?). Is it not true that kids from broken homes/families, poverty, tend to not score as well on college entrance exams?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sure is hard to not notice the difference in the type of players Al and Buzz had here, compared to those Wojo has recruited.
The issue with jucos has nothing to do with being clean cut or their familial backgrounds. It has to do with their potential academic success.
And yes you are correct that people with those backgrounds tend to perform less well academically. But that's the side affect and not the goal.
Again Wojo has recruited jucos. Jameel was admitted with the current standards in place.
Quote from: GOO on January 10, 2020, 02:51:50 PM
'Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds'
I didn't say this and didn't imply this and didn't mean this. You're putting your own bias into this one. What you state is not what MU or I want.
Kudos
Don't let the extreme NoJos twist your words or your beliefs.
They have a habit of attacking reasonable points of view and demeaning others because their views on Wojo don't align with the extreme position they have adopted.
Stick to your guns, I got your back.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 10, 2020, 02:16:09 PM
Moral Superiority makes me sleep better too!
Why have rules at all....I mean what's the point?
Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 10, 2020, 02:50:21 PM
There's at least one poster on here who's suggested that we should no longer go after "at risk" type players, and that the program is better off because Wojo has thus far not pursued them.
Absolutely false. I did not say should no longer take at risk type players. Stop lying.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 10, 2020, 03:10:16 PM
Would you agree that this whole "clean program" focus started 7 years ago under Larry Williams/Pilarz? This came on the heels of us having a number of JUCO's, and other academically challenged kids. Many feel Wojo can't even recruit JUCO's.
We raised academic entrance standards above NCAA minimums (what does that achieve?). Is it not true that kids from broken homes/families, poverty, tend to not score as well on college entrance exams?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sure is hard to not notice the difference in the type of players Al and Buzz had here, compared to those Wojo has recruited.
If a bunch of Buzz's guys didn't screw up you might not see the reigning in that happened. You can blame whom for that? Larry and Scott? Or the guys that actually Fuk'd up and the staff that brought them in? Hmmm.