MUScoop

1.  Finishing through contact.  Providence did.  Marquette didn't. 
2.  Boxing out.  Greg, Jamal, Sacar. 
3.  Markus.  Appreciate him while he is here. 
4.  Providence is very physical.   MU did not always step up.  See #2.
5.  I liked the post double teams in the first half. 
6.  Blown lay ups.   See #1.
7.  Jayce was the better 5 tonight.  He brought effort and physicality.  Changed the game a couple of times with pure hustle.
8.  Bailey is just fine.   Other than that last free throw.
9.  Zone.  Wojo never makes adjustments.  Whatever.
10.   In the end, losing because Providence powered their way to one more offensive rebound.  See #2
11.  And a free throw that matta'd.

LMAOOOOOO. Y'all got real jumpy after that Nova game.

Providence tougher. That was a Big East team right there.

This went about as expected. This team isnt ready to string together tough games yet.

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on January 07, 2020, 08:34:20 PM
LMAOOOOOO

Insightful.

Beyond stupid to take that timeout with 1.2 left and the guy shooting free throws. What exactly did wojo think they could do in that time.

Koby just sucks

There is no other way around it right now

Sheesh. Being at the game, some of those Ref calls were real rough to believe!

This is a tough loss to swallow, but I can live with the gutsy performance. Jayce Johnson really contributed doing the little things down the stretch. We just need Koby to step up into the number 2 scoring option night in and night out.

Is it too much to ask to at least win at home? Yikes. On to the next game.

Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 07, 2020, 08:35:45 PM
Koby just sucks

There is no other way around it right now

Fantastic on defense last 5 or so possessions in regular time. Was huge.

we suck, had my hopes up after the nova game, but that game confirms it. Thinking we will be near the cellar in the big east. Just not a good team, in a good conference.

That missed free throw by Bailey was some atrocious coaching. I watched the replay multiple times, not one player even went for the rebound. Your down 1 with four seconds left and no one is instructed to crash the boards, it was like they all assumed he was going to make it. On top of that he had Jamal and Sacar on the block, jayce has been a monster all game and when you may need the biggest rebound of the season, he's on the bench, I felt like I was taking crazy pills watching that

Are we still on a good trajectory with Wojo? He's never inspired confidence in me. That's a bad bad loss

Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 07, 2020, 08:36:04 PM
This is a tough loss to swallow, but I can live with the gutsy performance. Jayce Johnson really contributed doing the little things down the stretch. We just need Koby to step up into the number 2 scoring option night in and night out.

How dare you have such a mild-mannered response to a tough fought game. Props to Providence. They made some big shots and were battling inside. Just shows you how every team in the conference can win any game.

#1 all day long Koby and Sacar need to finish in the lane.

Howard gets no respect from the refs he gets abused on most drives and did not shoot a FT until very late or even all the bumps off ball screens.

Disparity in fouls, plus missed FTs killed us. Never saw such horrendous reffing

MU's FT% was 3.1% higher than Providence's, but it wasn't enough.

Lost in eFG% 50.0% to 44.5%. Tough to overcome. ORebs almost got us there.

Lack of talent for this level of ball and a coach who can't figure it out to save his life, hey?

Quote from: Smokin' Jae on January 07, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
That missed free throw by Bailey was some atrocious coaching. I watched the replay multiple times, not one player even went for the rebound. Your down 1 with four seconds left and no one is instructed to crash the boards, it was like they all assumed he was going to make it.

Was saying the same thing when I saw it. To have 4.1 second when he missed the ft to foul with 1.7 left is terrible and its reflected on the coach. I'm so sick of hearing about how good Wojo is after a win like Nova. Lets be honest we won because nova missed 30 3 pointers not because marquette played well. On a side note this was just Howard hero ball again. Next year will be even worse since no one ever wants to step up.

Our offense is a poor man's version of the Rockets. 1v5

Guess rule of thumb is if you up three, you foul under six seconds.  MU did not, when I presume most coaches would have.  PC was terrible at the line and at the time was 19 for 30. 

Very bad loss, very bad and could hurt them at years end.  Protect home court, especially against PC.

Believe Markus took 34 shots tonight, at times he was amazing, but he missed too many layups and those short one handlers. 

Said this in the game thread but woof

Providence #99 NET (puke) with losses to Northwestern, Penn, Long Beach State, College of Charleston & Rhode Island

Quote from: nyg on January 07, 2020, 08:40:19 PM
Guess rule of thumb is if you up three, you foul under six seconds.  MU did not, when I presume most coaches would have.   

This is incorrect.

Quote from: Smokin' Jae on January 07, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
That missed free throw by Bailey was some atrocious coaching. I watched the replay multiple times, not one player even went for the rebound. Your down 1 with four seconds left and no one is instructed to crash the boards, it was like they all assumed he was going to make it. On top of that he had Jamal and Sacar on the block, jayce has been a monster all game and when you may need the biggest rebound of the season, he's on the bench, I felt like I was taking crazy pills watching that

You gotta go all in for the rebound there.  Even if you don't get it, you foul on the rebound so no time comes off the clock.  Maybe on Wojo, but players should understand what to do without being told.

no consistency with this team and that is coaching. this was likely the easiest game at home (unless depaul tanks) and we lost. wow.....

If we keep this up, Marquette will no longer be relevant in college ball, very sad with a program of our history. It isn't just the coaching, it is the administration calling the shots. They must be okay with mediocrity (or less)

For everything Jayce contributed he gave right back. Poor on the defensive end.  Totally abused. Couldn't clean up defensive boards and still is a liability on the charity stripe. I would have rather seen Ed.  And that's saying a lot.   Need his good to outweigh his bad.  IMO it didn't tonight.

Quote from: warriors141 on January 07, 2020, 08:41:29 PM
no consistency with this team and that is coaching. this was likely the easiest game at home (unless depaul tanks) and we lost. wow.....

If we keep this up, Marquette will no longer be relevant in college ball, very sad with a program of our history. It isn't just the coaching, it is the administration calling the shots. They must be okay with mediocrity (or less)

We have not had a decent rebounding center since what Robert Jackson? Our centers could not be any weaker. John, Morrow and Johnson cannot shoot their way out of a tin can. Yes the blocks are nice but they are such a liability its ridiculous.

Is Theo John the worst big man ever? Wtf does he do

One wonders about next year's offense.

Finally joined scoop officially...have followed for years.

Really evident down the stretch that without at least a 2nd option it's gonna be tough to win close games when they collapse on Howard.

I don't understand why Wojo didn't foul in regulation once the clock hit 10 seconds, that's a pretty easy situation imo. Secondly, even though it likely wouldn't have mattered, to call a timeout in between free throws with 1.7 seconds left at the end seems beyond dumb. The ONLY chance you have on a miss is to call a timeout and at least have an in bound play and a prayer. I.e. Creighton last year.

Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 07, 2020, 08:44:47 PM
One wonders about next year's offense.

No need to wonder about it, just look at what happens during the game tonight.

Quote from: nyg on January 07, 2020, 08:40:19 PM
Guess rule of thumb is if you up three, you foul under six seconds.  MU did not, when I presume most coaches would have.  PC was terrible at the line and at the time was 19 for 30. 

Very bad loss, very bad and could hurt them at years end.  Protect home court, especially against PC.

Believe Markus took 34 shots tonight, at times he was amazing, but he missed too many layups and those short one handlers.

looked like a moving screen to get Reeves open for the 3 to send it to OT.

Battled but a bad loss.  Lack of major talent beyond Markus does not help either.

Don't bitch about the refs. Providence was tougher in a physical game. Marquette is soft.

Theo wasting fouls on dumbass over the backs on the offensive end. You're a f*cking junior and you can't figure that out yet?

Quote from: nyg on January 07, 2020, 08:40:19 PM
Guess rule of thumb is if you up three, you foul under six seconds.  MU did not, when I presume most coaches would have.  PC was terrible at the line and at the time was 19 for 30. 

Very bad loss, very bad and could hurt them at years end.  Protect home court, especially against PC.

Believe Markus took 34 shots tonight, at times he was amazing, but he missed too many layups and those short one handlers.

do you really think this even matters at years end??? maybe the difference between NIT or not? Really this team is not good, and the Big East is good. If we were in a weak conference maybe it matters, but got a feeling we are in for a long season

Quote from: MU2007 on January 07, 2020, 08:45:09 PM
Finally joined scoop officially...have followed for years.

Really evident down the stretch that without at least a 2nd option it's gonna be tough to win close games when they collapse on Howard.

I don't understand why Wojo didn't foul in regulation once the clock hit 10 seconds, that's a pretty easy situation imo. Secondly, even though it likely wouldn't have mattered, to call a timeout in between free throws with 1.7 seconds left at the end seems beyond dumb. The ONLY chance you have on a miss is to call a timeout and at least have an in bound play and a prayer. I.e. Creighton last year.

Exactly my point. By using the time out there you essentially conceded to the loss. At least on a full court pass you could attempt to draw a foul. Does anyone even have the arm strength to one hand it full court at the hoop standing still.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 07, 2020, 08:48:06 PM
Don't bitch about the refs. Providence was tougher in a physical game. Marquette is soft.

Theo wasting fouls on dumbass over the backs on the offensive end. You're a f*cking junior and you can't figure that out yet?

I'm with ya. Love to complain about the refs. Certainly Wasn't the problem tonight.

Anyone know if Wojo skipped the post game again?

Quote from: HowardsWorld on January 07, 2020, 08:35:27 PM
Beyond stupid to take that timeout with 1.2 left and the guy shooting free throws. What exactly did wojo think they could do in that time.

Absolutely and it was actually 1.7 seconds. Off an inbound pass after either a made free throw or a missed free throw or time out off a missed free throw clock starts wherever you catch it and you get a dribble at least and if you make it or get fouled you WIN.

I am a big wojo fan, but even I was screaming at the tv as soon as the timeout was called I was yelling at the tv you just lost the game. At that point it doesn't take a great coach like Cooley - a JV high school coach knows you miss the free throw on purpose - a guy catching the rebound with his back to the basket has no chance.to turn and get off a pass or shot that has any chance. Awful decision.

Quote from: AirPunch on January 07, 2020, 08:50:56 PM
Anyone know if Wojo skipped the post game again?

He's doing nothing to counter the idea that he's clueless. He said he feared the team coming out flat. Good thing he feared it and did nothing as that's just what they did

How many flex set curls to the basket did Cooley run before wojo finally adjusted and went to zone. Unreal

We're just a middle of the road team that has one player who could get red hot and win us a few games we shouldn't. I think this game just made me accept it.

I dont understand the hideous non con play by PC. They are not the 99th best team. No way

Quote from: jonny09 on January 07, 2020, 08:42:25 PM
For everything Jayce contributed he gave right back. Poor on the defensive end.  Totally abused. Couldn't clean up defensive boards and still is a liability on the charity stripe. I would have rather seen Ed.  And that's saying a lot.   Need his good to outweigh his bad.  IMO it didn't tonight.

Did u see ed play? Scored on him ever time n how many rebounds?

Providence bench: 42 points

Marquette bench :   8 points

Quote from: Johnny B on January 07, 2020, 08:55:25 PM
I dont understand the hideous non con play by PC. They are not the 99th best team. No way

Well they also had a 25% 3 point shooter with a horseshoe lodged up his ass tonight. That certainly didn't help.

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 07, 2020, 08:40:32 PM
Said this in the game thread but woof

Providence #99 NET (puke) with losses to Northwestern, Penn, Long Beach State, College of Charleston & Rhode Island

Which sucks because they're obviously much better than that.

Tough game. MU played hard. Koby or Sacar hit one more of the many shots they missed we win. It sucks. It hurts, and it may hurt a lot in a couple months. But hardly a death kneel. Go steal one at Hall on Sat and all is back to normal.

Quote from: JWags85 on January 07, 2020, 08:52:36 PM
He's doing nothing to counter the idea that he's clueless. He said he feared the team coming out flat. Good thing he feared it and did nothing as that's just what they did

"Feared the team coming out flat"????????????? Did he really say that???? Gotta be one of the biggest WTF comments ever. Flat because we won one game, at home????

And we did come out flat, and the coaching did nothing to change it. I guess we need to lose against bad teams to get our energy up for the next game? This is beyond ridiculous and proves that this coach has no idea what he is doing.

The fact that the completely lost grip of the team last year totally effed us this year as well

Quote from: Mutaman on January 07, 2020, 08:55:57 PM
Providence bench: 42 points

Marquette bench :   8 points

Howard & Bailey: 58 points
Rest of Team: 22 points

That won't get it done.

Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 07, 2020, 08:57:05 PM
Which sucks because they're obviously much better than that.

Are they? If MU played half as well as they did against Nova, they win by 15+. To me that was much more an MU loss than a Providence win

Gonna have to rally on Saturday. 1-3 start with xavier at home sounds depressing as hell. The thing is the bug east is good. 7-8 legit tourney teams. Not much disparity between the teams at all. Gonna be a ton of down to the wire games. Which of course will lead to some teams just getting some luck and winning more than they should and other teams losing more than they should. Cant afford to lose home games like this anymore. Difference between 3rd place and 7th place finish even though 3rd and 7 teams are no better or worse than each other. We are a bubble team. Well see what happens

Anyone blaming loss on Wojo is a turd. Gotta make layups

Quote from: warriors141 on January 07, 2020, 08:48:38 PM
do you really think this even matters at years end??? maybe the difference between NIT or not? Really this team is not good, and the Big East is good. If we were in a weak conference maybe it matters, but got a feeling we are in for a long season

Lol this team could go 8-10 and have a decent shot at am ncaa bid. At least educate yourself before making dumbass comments.

Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 07, 2020, 09:02:26 PM
Lol this team could go 8-10 and have a decent shot at am ncaa bid. At least educate yourself before making dumbass comments.

8-10 may be the ceiling...........

Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 07, 2020, 08:36:04 PM
This is a tough loss to swallow, but I can live with the gutsy performance. Jayce Johnson really contributed doing the little things down the stretch. We just need Koby to step up into the number 2 scoring option night in and night out.

Number 2 scoring option now I have to say is Bailey.  The Kid showed heart today.  Other than the bigs, only guy to play Providence tough at the rim.  Everyone else seems to just disappear.  A 1.5 head offense just won't cut it. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 07, 2020, 08:33:44 PM
1.  Finishing through contact.  Providence did.  Marquette didn't. 
2.  Boxing out.  Greg, Jamal, Sacar. 
3.  Markus.  Appreciate him while he is here. 
4.  Providence is very physical.   MU did not always step up.  See #2.
5.  I liked the post double teams in the first half. 
6.  Blown lay ups.   See #1.
7.  Jayce was the better 5 tonight.  He brought effort and physicality.  Changed the game a couple of times with pure hustle.
8.  Bailey is just fine.   Other than that last free throw.
9.  Zone.  Wojo never makes adjustments.  Whatever.
10.   In the end, losing because Providence powered their way to one more offensive rebound.  See #2
11.  And a free throw that matta'd.

Credit to Providence they came out hungry and earned a win. Clutch three at the end of regulation and just enough in overtime. Really physical team # Matchups matter.
Another slow start and at home. Wojo deserves some blame. The comeback to take a seven point lead. Wojo deserves some credit.
The loss is on everyone.
Four missed free throws in a row really killed Marquettes momentum.
Glad Markus is OK.
Agree with boxing out but a lot of those were scrums in close.
Koby regressed to the mean.
Theo needs to string multiple good games together.
Jayce was serviceable.
Ed?
Sacar needs to be aggressive offensively earlier in games.
Cain/Elliot still growing into their minutes.
Bailey showed  up from three.
Markus was Markus offensively but got exploited repeatedly on defense.
Not finishing drives was the difference in the game.
No. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Zippo. Easy games in Big East play.
iIf you didn't know it before you know it now.

Quote from: warriors141 on January 07, 2020, 09:08:26 PM
8-10 may be the ceiling...........

Lol, I am as disappointed as anyone but that this simply isn't true.

Doesn't take me long to realize why I don't post here much anymore when I do occasionally return. This place sucks.

The most atrocious moment of the game, and it's hard to not choose the timeout after the first missed free throw at the very end, is when Bailey missed the third free throw and it took like 3 seconds to foul them.  How we are not crashing the boards and then fouling immediately if they get it is beyond me, and whether you are pro Wojo or not, that is on the coaches.  How do you not have your team prepared for that situation?  If they are shooting two with 4 seconds left, it's still a game!  Painful to lose, but even more painful when we just gift them advantages.  I am trying really hard to like Wojo but today was a huge red mark in the nope column.  I pretty much like him for just about everything but I just don't think he is a good in-game coach.  I just don't see it.  Losing at home to Providence today was just bad and ugly.

We didn't deserve to win that game. MU didn't show up for the first 16+ minutes, down 27-16 at the 3:58 mark. You can't play half a game and expect to win in the Big East. Lots to improve on. Next up.

I thought that Markus got abused the whole game with infrequent calls.
The drive that he made (1 on 5) and laid in, culminated in his being hit and driven 4 feet left. No call.
That was not an isolated incident.
I am not blaming the zebras for this loss. Blame: 60% Wojo, 40 % players.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 07, 2020, 08:56:24 PM
Well they also had a 25% 3 point shooter with a horseshoe lodged up his ass tonight. That certainly didn't help.

Providence threw up a whole bunch of absolute sh!t that somehow went in.

Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 07, 2020, 09:21:25 PM
I thought that Markus got abused the whole game with infrequent calls.

OTOH, he gets away with the chicken wing push off quite a bit.

Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 07, 2020, 09:17:21 PM
The most atrocious moment of the game, and it's hard to not choose the timeout after the first missed free throw at the very end, is when Bailey missed the third free throw and it took like 3 seconds to foul them.  How we are not crashing the boards and then fouling immediately if they get it is beyond me, and whether you are pro Wojo or not, that is on the coaches.  How do you not have your team prepared for that situation?  If they are shooting two with 4 seconds left, it's still a game!  Painful to lose, but even more painful when we just gift them advantages.  I am trying really hard to like Wojo but today was a huge red mark in the nope column.  I pretty much like him for just about everything but I just don't think he is a good in-game coach.  I just don't see it.  Losing at home to Providence today was just bad and ugly.

Sacar chased the ball, but started from the opposite side of the lane.  Jamal, who was the closest MU player, turned and ran down the court like there was 5 minutes left.  The amount of time these guys spend on basketball...how can they do things like that???

Thought it was a hard fought game. Providence is very physical but we played really hard and as physical as we are capable.

Don't like the loss, but not going to pile on Wojo here. This was a great basketball game.  Definitely wish we won, but think we will win a couple of games we are underdogs.

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on January 07, 2020, 08:55:08 PM
We're just a middle of the road team that has one player who could get red hot and win us a few games we shouldn't. I think this game just made me accept it.

Pretty much.  Feels a lot like Diener's senior year. 

At this point, my goal for the season is simple:  sneak into the tourney somehow and hope Markus shoots us to the 2nd weekend.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
Thought it was a hard fought game. Providence is very physical but we played really hard and as physical as we are capable.

Don't like the loss, but not going to pile on Wojo here. This was a great basketball game.  Definitely wish we won, but think we will win a couple of games we are underdogs.

How can you not pile on Wojo?  He lost the game for MU by not telling the team to foul.  Instead, Providence buries a 3 to force OT.  Good coaches don't make that mistake....

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 09:33:34 PM
How can you not pile on Wojo?  He lost the game for MU by not telling the team to foul.  Instead, Providence buries a 3 to force OT.  Good coaches don't make that mistake....

I thought we also lost the game right there.

But your last sentence is horseshit and why many here think you're a clown. Do you sincerely believe that no "good" coach has ever not fouled, then lost, up 3?

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 09:33:34 PM
How can you not pile on Wojo?  He lost the game for MU by not telling the team to foul.  Instead, Providence buries a 3 to force OT.  Good coaches don't make that mistake....

I think more coaches don't foul in that situation than do.  Fouling introduces the possibility or losing in regulation, which a lot of coaches are wary of.  I don't mind the not fouling, a poor shooter made a tough shot while being pretty well guarded.  Not so happy with the failure to crash the boards on Bailey's FT miss and either keep the ball alive or foul the rebounder.  And the last timeout was brutal.

Quote from: TFlegend on January 07, 2020, 09:25:52 PM
Sacar chased the ball, but started from the opposite side of the lane.  Jamal, who was the closest MU player, turned and ran down the court like there was 5 minutes left.  The amount of time these guys spend on basketball...how can they do things like that???

I've said similar things about a number of guys this year. There just seems to be a lack of discipline on the floor with this team. Guys playing too fast, sloppy/lazy passes, driving to the paint without knowing what the next step is, etc. These kinds of things shouldn't be happening so much at this level. Add to that the inconsistency in energy/focus, and you wind up with some head-scratching results.

I like that this team is more athletic than we've had in the past, but so far, that doesn't seem to be outweighing the lower basketball IQ and weaker fundamentals often enough. I'm sure we'll win a game or two or three that we're not projected to with this group, but I worry we may drop a few more like this too.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 07, 2020, 09:35:22 PM
I thought we also lost the game right there.

But your last sentence is horsecrap and why many here think you're a clown. Do you sincerely believe that no "good" coach has ever not fouled, then lost, up 3?

Why do you continually make excuses for poor behavior?  Why do you enable?  Is it in your nature?  I just don't get it...... 

All you do is validate my argument that the fanbase is very reluctant, lackadaisical, and passive.

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 09:33:34 PM
How can you not pile on Wojo?  He lost the game for MU by not telling the team to foul.  Instead, Providence buries a 3 to force OT.  Good coaches don't make that mistake....

How much time was left? I thought there was 18. I feel like if you have to let a play develop, you run the risk of fouling a 3 pt shooter. Also, the way they were beating us up on the boards, I'm not sure it was certainty to foul.

Quote from: cheebs09 on January 07, 2020, 09:38:46 PM
How much time was left? I thought there was 18. I feel like if you have to let a play develop, you run the risk of fouling a 3 pt shooter. Also, the way they were beating us up on the boards, I'm not sure it was certainty to foul.

That's a low risk situation.  Not to mention, Providence was shaky from the line.  That loss may be the one that puts them on the bubble and forfeits them a tourney appearance. - All do to coaching

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 09:38:09 PM
Why do you continually make excuses for poor behavior?  Why do you enable?  Is it in your nature?  I just don't get it...... 

All you do is validate my argument that the fanbase is very reluctant, lackadaisical, and passive.

You didn't answer my question

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 07, 2020, 09:35:22 PM
I thought we also lost the game right there.

But your last sentence is horsecrap and why many here think you're a clown. Do you sincerely believe that no "good" coach has ever not fouled, then lost, up 3?

I'd love to see some of the numbers on this scenario. To me (not a high level basketball coach) it seems like a no brainer to foul. Prevent the possibility of a tie and then you get the ball back. I don't get the decision not to foul, but I wouldn't say that was the biggest reason we lost.

The biggest reason we lost is that we rely way too much on Markus when we're on offense. Guys are way too comfortable standing still, not being active on the offensive end. And that is even more evident when Markus isn't on the floor. We need Bailey or Sacar to be more consistently aggressive and take more shots. They're good enough players; they just need to take the initiative to score more often. 

Quote from: skianth16 on January 07, 2020, 09:43:36 PM
I'd love to see some of the numbers on this scenario. To me (not a high level basketball coach) it seems like a no brainer to foul. Prevent the possibility of a tie and then you get the ball back. I don't get the decision not to foul, but I wouldn't say that was the biggest reason we lost.

The biggest reason we lost is that we rely way too much on Markus when we're on offense. Guys are way too comfortable standing still, not being active on the offensive end. And that is even more evident when Markus isn't on the floor. We need Bailey or Sacar to be more consistently aggressive and take more shots. They're good enough players; they just need to take the initiative to score more often.

Ya. And I think Markus does look to get others involved. But there is little off the ball movement.

There is no definitive consensus on what's better -- to foul or not to foul. If you foul, there's always the chance of your opponent making the first free throw, missing the second and getting the offensive rebound. Or a turnover on the following inbounds play.

Here's an interesting article on the subject, which concludes there is no significant difference between the two strategies. I challenge anyone who claims otherwise to produce evidence to back it up.

https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/intentionally-fouling-up-3-points-the-first-comprehensive-cbb-analysis/ (https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/intentionally-fouling-up-3-points-the-first-comprehensive-cbb-analysis/)

I remember Brad Stevens saying once on whether to foul, "it depends." I would have liked to see it tonight with their play taking forever to get off. It wasn't a quick hitter where you risk fouling the shooter.

Another longtime lurker, first time poster. Current student and have been a big Wojo supporter.
However, I thought he was really poor tonight. As mentioned before, we were getting abused by the flex cuts. Yes, a zone would've prevented that, but something else we kept doing was driving me crazy.
PC had Khalif Young just inside the 3 Pt line at the top of the key making the entry passes on the flex cuts. I absolutely HATED that Theo was defending him so close and pressuring the ball. I understand the hope is that it makes it harder to pass, but that clearly wasn't happening. What I thought should have happened was have Theo back off and clog the lane where Young can either take a long 2 (that I can live with all day) or attempt a pass into the trees.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 07, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
Thought it was a hard fought game. Providence is very physical but we played really hard and as physical as we are capable.

Don't like the loss, but not going to pile on Wojo here. This was a great basketball game.  Definitely wish we won, but think we will win a couple of games we are underdogs.

I'm kinda in the same boat.  We battled. Something we didn't do in Omaha.  I absolutely question some strategy but feel ok about the fact we're competitive. 

I have no problem with not fouling. You don't foul until six or less seconds remain...that's always the rule of thumb I've heard.  With the shot going through the net at four seconds, he likely was in the shooting motion already at six seconds. 

I do have a big problem with the lack of foul immediately after Bailey's miss and the inexplicable time out.  Very poor coaching over those last four seconds.  Other than that, I pin much of the blame on the guys at the 5.  They were just abused.  Theo absolutely needs to stay on the court.  The drop after him is significant. 

Quote from: Marcus92 on January 07, 2020, 09:54:34 PM
There is no definitive consensus on what's better -- to foul or not to foul. If you foul, there's always the chance of your opponent making the first free throw, missing the second and getting the offensive rebound. Or a turnover on the following inbounds play.

Here's an interesting article on the subject, which concludes there is no significant difference between the two strategies. I challenge anyone who claims otherwise to produce evidence to back it up.

https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/intentionally-fouling-up-3-points-the-first-comprehensive-cbb-analysis/ (https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/intentionally-fouling-up-3-points-the-first-comprehensive-cbb-analysis/)

Interesting write up there, but there seem to be a few things that could be clarified to make the analysis a little more compelling. For one, it seems like the sample he looked at has a disproportionate number of fouls occurring on the 3 point shot. The biggest thing to me, though, is that he studied situations where a team has the ball in their last possession when trailing by 3. That could occur with a fairly wide range of time left on the clock. Those two things make this one analysis less than definitive for me.

It doesn't seem hard to commit a foul that doesn't involve a 3 point shooter and would not be considered an intentional foul. So when you remove that situation, the possibility of the trailing team scoring 3 points would have to drop quite a bit.

My simple thought process is that the odds of a guy hitting a 3 point shot are probably pretty similar to a player's 3FG%, so something like 35%-40%. But the odds of a guy getting fouled, making his first shot (70%-80% odds), intentionally missing his second, his team getting the rebound and then hitting a FG (usually 50% ish odds) all occurring together sure seem a heckuva lot lower than 35%.

Quote from: skianth16 on January 07, 2020, 10:25:41 PM
Interesting write up there, but there seem to be a few things that could be clarified to make the analysis a little more compelling. For one, it seems like the sample he looked at has a disproportionate number of fouls occurring on the 3 point shot. The biggest thing to me, though, is that he studied situations where a team has the ball in their last possession when trailing by 3. That could occur with a fairly wide range of time left on the clock. Those two things make this one analysis less than definitive for me.

It doesn't seem hard to commit a foul that doesn't involve a 3 point shooter and would not be considered an intentional foul. So when you remove that situation, the possibility of the trailing team scoring 3 points would have to drop quite a bit.

My simple thought process is that the odds of a guy hitting a 3 point shot are probably pretty similar to a player's 3FG%, so something like 35%-40%. But the odds of a guy getting fouled, making his first shot (70%-80% odds), intentionally missing his second, his team getting the rebound and then hitting a FG (usually 50% ish odds) all occurring together sure seem a heckuva lot lower than 35%.

My argument is that you take an in game approach to fouling if up by three.  Providence looked tight from the free throw line all night.  In a pressure situation I like my chances when fouling them.  Worse comes to worse, they hit both, then you inbound to Howard who's basically 100% from FT line. 

Here's another article on the subject:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/03/18/up-3-in-the-final-seconds-do-you-foul-or-defend/24981367/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/03/18/up-3-in-the-final-seconds-do-you-foul-or-defend/24981367/)

It mentions another study by Ken Pomeroy -- which cites lower three-point percentages during end-of-game situations (due to teams specifically defending against them) and higher-than-average offensive rebounding percentages, among other factors.

Numerous coaches are also quoted in the article, including Izzo, Coach K and Calipari. The general consensus: It depends.

Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 07, 2020, 09:17:21 PM
The most atrocious moment of the game, and it's hard to not choose the timeout after the first missed free throw at the very end, is when Bailey missed the third free throw and it took like 3 seconds to foul them.  How we are not crashing the boards and then fouling immediately if they get it is beyond me, and whether you are pro Wojo or not, that is on the coaches.  How do you not have your team prepared for that situation?  If they are shooting two with 4 seconds left, it's still a game!  Painful to lose, but even more painful when we just gift them advantages.  I am trying really hard to like Wojo but today was a huge red mark in the nope column.  I pretty much like him for just about everything but I just don't think he is a good in-game coach.  I just don't see it.  Losing at home to Providence today was just bad and ugly.

Just watched the postgame presser.  This is verbatim:

Reporter: At the end of overtime, did you think about putting rebounders in during Brendan's free throws, and then when you used that timeout in between free throws, how did you decide to end that instead of saving that?

Wojo: Yeah well umm, I thought, I...I...was sure Brendan was gonna make it (smiles), and uh, you know we...you know we had to get a stop, and we...we knew we may have to utilize a timeout after that.

1. That is just BAD COACHING.  No wonder the players don't know what to do.

2. What is he even talking about?  Embarrassing.

Can you imagine Cooley answering those questions that way?  Not a chance.

Quote from: MU2020 on January 07, 2020, 10:00:44 PM
Another longtime lurker, first time poster. Current student and have been a big Wojo supporter.
However, I thought he was really poor tonight. As mentioned before, we were getting abused by the flex cuts. Yes, a zone would've prevented that, but something else we kept doing was driving me crazy.
PC had Khalif Young just inside the 3 Pt line at the top of the key making the entry passes on the flex cuts. I absolutely HATED that Theo was defending him so close and pressuring the ball. I understand the hope is that it makes it harder to pass, but that clearly wasn't happening. What I thought should have happened was have Theo back off and clog the lane where Young can either take a long 2 (that I can live with all day) or attempt a pass into the trees.

Is that the play Markus was getting repeatedly abused on?

Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 07, 2020, 10:39:28 PM
Just watched the postgame presser.  This is verbatim:

Reporter: At the end of overtime, did you think about putting rebounders in during Brendan's free throws, and then when you used that timeout in between free throws, how did you decide to end that instead of saving that?

Wojo: Yeah well umm, I thought, I...I...was sure Brendan was gonna make it (smiles), and uh, you know we...you know we had to get a stop, and we...we knew we may have to utilize a timeout after that.

1. That is just BAD COACHING.  No wonder the players don't know what to do.

2. What is he even talking about?  Embarrassing.

Can you imagine Cooley answering those questions that way?  Not a chance.

First decision is debatable but largely I think it's fine. Offensive rebound chances are slim, get your defensive lineup in there assuming a make.

No excuse for the timeout, though. Absolutely none.

Quote from: BM1090 on January 07, 2020, 10:43:15 PM
First decision is debatable but largely I think it's fine. Offensive rebound chances are slim, get your defensive lineup in their assuming a make.

No excuse for the timeout, though. Absolutely none.

Agree with your point on the first part but t me more concerning in his response is that I think it's clear all the players expected him to make it too and were not prepared for Plan B.

Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 07, 2020, 10:47:56 PM
Agree with your point on the first part but t me more concerning in his response is that I think it's clear all the players expected him to make it too and were not prepared for Plan B.

Most devout Catholics aren't prepared for Plan B.

Just a note, Jayce led MU with a +5. Ed was a -7 and Theo a -2.

https://gomarquette.com/services/download_file.ashx?file_location=https://s3.amazonaws.com/gomarquette.com/documents/2020/1/7/Box_Score_Providence_at_Marquette_08_January.pdf

Key to me was another slow start. Only 8 points with almost 12 minutes in. Missed 15 of their first 20 shots. MU took the hit in this one and came back to get in it but that start was hard to get out from under.  Lots of weird and lucky stuff happens late in games. As was mentioned, slow starts out of halves are an issue. 

Brenden had only four first half points, all on a trey and a foul. He needs to get in the flow more early. Great game offensively and defensively.

Two point shooting again poor. Koby is really struggling and Sacar didn't have the touch. Markus is bodied hard on every drive.

If MU is to replace the Hausers' value add, it will take a village. Tonight, the Village People didn't show as the bench got battered.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 07, 2020, 11:17:33 PM
Key to me was another slow start. Only 8 points with almost 12 minutes in. Missed 15 of their first 20 shots. MU took the hit in this one and came back to get in it but that start was hard to get out from under.  Lots of weird and lucky stuff happens late in games. As was mentioned, slow starts out of halves are an issue. 

Brenden had only four first half points, all on a trey and a foul. He needs to get in the flow more early. Great game offensively and defensively.

Two point shooting again poor. Koby is really struggling and Sacar didn't have the touch. Markus is bodied hard on every drive.

If MU is to replace the Hausers' value add, it will take a village. Tonight, the Village People didn't show as the bench got battered.

Only about 1 or 2 people on offense were touching the ball in the first 6 minutes of the game.  You need to run an offense and establish tempo rather than let Howard run loose everywhere while every one stands around and watches.  Very impatient, this team is. 

Watson was plus 3... he abused Jayce mid game...

Jayce seemed to get more physical as the game went on

Bad Luck.  PC had 7.2% chance of winning in the last seconds of regulation.

One consistent theme of Wojo teams is a slow start to each half.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 07, 2020, 11:17:33 PM
Key to me was another slow start. Only 8 points with almost 12 minutes in. Missed 15 of their first 20 shots. MU took the hit in this one and came back to get in it but that start was hard to get out from under.  Lots of weird and lucky stuff happens late in games. As was mentioned, slow starts out of halves are an issue. 

Brenden had only four first half points, all on a trey and a foul. He needs to get in the flow more early. Great game offensively and defensively.

Two point shooting again poor. Koby is really struggling and Sacar didn't have the touch. Markus is bodied hard on every drive.

If MU is to replace the Hausers' value add, it will take a village. Tonight, the Village People didn't show as the bench got battered.

You can't lose this game. You just can't. This is the only Q3 game on the schedule. And if it becomes Q2, great, but it's our fault if it does. Games like this cost seeds and bids.

So much wrong about this one. Not fouling up 3. The complete inability of anyone other than Howard and Bailey to hit a shot (26.6 eFG% from everyone else). The nation's leader in drawing fouls getting 5 FTA with 19 2PFGA.

Bottom line, terrible loss. No two ways about it. This is up there with losing to DePaul in 2018 that cost us a bid and losing to Georgetown on Senior Day to lose the Big East title.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 07, 2020, 11:39:10 PM
The nation's leader in drawing fouls getting 5 FTA with 19 2PFGA.

This baffling to me. Reigning BE POY, arguably the current leader for NPOY and in track to be a first team AA, and through 3 games, he's seemingly officiated like Symir would be, especially when in the lane. Like it or not, reputation/prestige whistles are a thing, but Markus honestly seems like he goes the other direction. It was infuriating last year, but it often seemed like he avoided contact. This year not the case, and teams realize being physical with him is a way to try and take him off his game. You would think it would make a difference. I can think of 4-5 calls that over the last few games I can't believe he didn't get (2 hard drives tonight, the baffling charge against Nova where he was tackled, and a few in Omaha). Not sure what it is

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 07, 2020, 11:39:10 PM
You can't lose this game. You just can't. This is the only Q3 game on the schedule. And if it becomes Q2, great, but it's our fault if it does. Games like this cost seeds and bids.

So much wrong about this one. Not fouling up 3. The complete inability of anyone other than Howard and Bailey to hit a shot (26.6 eFG% from everyone else). The nation's leader in drawing fouls getting 5 FTA with 19 2PFGA.

Bottom line, terrible loss. No two ways about it. This is up there with losing to DePaul in 2018 that cost us a bid and losing to Georgetown on Senior Day to lose the Big East title.

I agree with you. Can't lose this type of game at home. Not enough scorers on this team. Our bench was awol. 8 points, pathetic. This one will hurt.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 07, 2020, 11:39:10 PM
You can't lose this game. You just can't. This is the only Q3 game on the schedule. And if it becomes Q2, great, but it's our fault if it does. Games like this cost seeds and bids.

So much wrong about this one. Not fouling up 3. The complete inability of anyone other than Howard and Bailey to hit a shot (26.6 eFG% from everyone else). The nation's leader in drawing fouls getting 5 FTA with 19 2PFGA.

Bottom line, terrible loss. No two ways about it. This is up there with losing to DePaul in 2018 that cost us a bid and losing to Georgetown on Senior Day to lose the Big East title.

It feels more like the last time providence came to the Bradley center and beat us after the thrilling win over #1 nova days earlier. The depaul loss was devastating that one year and the georgetown game was kind of whatever tbh. The team had pretty much already fallen apart and the ink had long dried on the letter. 

Always hard to lose especially when you have chances to win and specific plays to look back on. It's easier mentally just to get your ass kicked lol. Lot of ball to be played though and I think it's too early to be worrying about Q2 vs Q3 etc.

The magic number to make the dance is 9 with 16 games guaranteed to play. 9-7 is doable with this roster and hopefully they are trending up at that point unlike last year.

First, the Positive:
- Markus was excellent and did everything he possibly could
- Bailey was also solid.  His defense was very good and he was a confident contributor on offense
- Ed got pulled for trying a 15 footer and the team got to finish the game without his bad hands, turnstile defense and turnovers (yes, that's a positive)
- Jayce showed some real hustle and some great work on the boards

Then the negative:
- Wojo was totally out-coached.  Cooley had the (obvious) strategy to win and Wojo had nothing to counter it.  The strategy is not too complex.  Pressure Markus, abuse Markus to the greatest extent that the refs will allow.  Use about 15 fouls on him.  Wojo needs to come up with a way to win when this happens.
- Bench and supporting cast really didn't show up
- Theo
- The timeout (bad coaching)
- Not fouling (bad coaching)
- No rebound on BB's missed FT (bad coaching)
- No respect from the referees.  (bad coaching) Especially when Markus was getting abused the way he was.  There were several plays where he was fouled 2 or 3 times with no call. 

MU has superior talent to PC, the leading scorer in the NCAA, good size, good length, and a deeper bench.  When this combination loses the way MU did, it's on the coaches. 

I'm not saying Fire Wojo.  I'm saying he needs to be accountable for losses and needs to do more to put the players in a position to win.

Seton Hall is next, and they will do what PC did, but even better.  Wojo needs to figure out how to win with pressure on Markus.

Quote from: WarriorFan on January 08, 2020, 12:51:26 AM
First, the Positive:
- Markus was excellent and did everything he possibly could
- Bailey was also solid.  His defense was very good and he was a confident contributor on offense
- Ed got pulled for trying a 15 footer and the team got to finish the game without his bad hands, turnstile defense and turnovers (yes, that's a positive)
- Jayce showed some real hustle and some great work on the boards

Then the negative:
- Wojo was totally out-coached.  Cooley had the (obvious) strategy to win and Wojo had nothing to counter it.  The strategy is not too complex.  Pressure Markus, abuse Markus to the greatest extent that the refs will allow.  Use about 15 fouls on him.  Wojo needs to come up with a way to win when this happens.
- Bench and supporting cast really didn't show up
- Theo
- The timeout (bad coaching)
- Not fouling (bad coaching)
- No rebound on BB's missed FT (bad coaching)
- No respect from the referees.  (bad coaching) Especially when Markus was getting abused the way he was.  There were several plays where he was fouled 2 or 3 times with no call. 

MU has superior talent to PC, the leading scorer in the NCAA, good size, good length, and a deeper bench.  When this combination loses the way MU did, it's on the coaches. 

I'm not saying Fire Wojo.  I'm saying he needs to be accountable for losses and needs to do more to put the players in a position to win.

Seton Hall is next, and they will do what PC did, but even better.  Wojo needs to figure out how to win with pressure on Markus.

Sorry, this one was on the players right from the start.  One can quibble about some items, but it rae
ly came down to execution.

Quote from: NickelDimer on January 07, 2020, 08:38:19 PM
Are we still on a good trajectory with Wojo? He's never inspired confidence in me. That's a bad bad loss

This...is...not...a...tourney...team!

@Creighton was the kind of W we would need to be in the BE top 3.
Home Providence was the kind of L we need to avoid to being in the BE bottom 3.

We'll have more opportunities for both. Hopefully we can get some of the Ws and avoid any more of those Ls.

Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 07, 2020, 10:39:28 PM
Just watched the postgame presser.  This is verbatim:

Reporter: At the end of overtime, did you think about putting rebounders in during Brendan's free throws, and then when you used that timeout in between free throws, how did you decide to end that instead of saving that?

Wojo: Yeah well umm, I thought, I...I...was sure Brendan was gonna make it (smiles), and uh, you know we...you know we had to get a stop, and we...we knew we may have to utilize a timeout after that.

1. That is just BAD COACHING.  No wonder the players don't know what to do.

2. What is he even talking about?  Embarrassing.

Can you imagine Cooley answering those questions that way?  Not a chance.

Da dude iz know Mensa member, aina?

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 07, 2020, 10:28:10 PM
My argument is that you take an in game approach to fouling if up by three.  Providence looked tight from the free throw line all night.  In a pressure situation I like my chances when fouling them.  Worse comes to worse, they hit both, then you inbound to Howard who's basically 100% from FT line. 

They hadn't hit a three in the second half. They ran a good play and hit a semi contested shot. With seven seconds left you don't foul.

Quote from: Nukem2 on January 08, 2020, 01:06:17 AM
Sorry, this one was on the players right from the start.  One can quibble about some items, but it rae
ly came down to execution.

This guy gets it.

And not to single out one play within a game as the whole outcome would've shifted differently and this person otherwise played a very good game but Bailey stepping into the lane on that missed free throw and giving the guy a second chance and then having him make it was the difference between OT and winning in regulation.  Literally turned to my friend and said, "we better not lose by a one point".

Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 07, 2020, 10:39:28 PM
Just watched the postgame presser.  This is verbatim:

Reporter: At the end of overtime, did you think about putting rebounders in during Brendan's free throws, and then when you used that timeout in between free throws, how did you decide to end that instead of saving that?

Wojo: Yeah well umm, I thought, I...I...was sure Brendan was gonna make it (smiles), and uh, you know we...you know we had to get a stop, and we...we knew we may have to utilize a timeout after that.

1. That is just BAD COACHING.  No wonder the players don't know what to do.

2. What is he even talking about?  Embarrassing.

Can you imagine Cooley answering those questions that way?  Not a chance.

This is pretty revealing and a really, really bad look for Wojo. He essentially admitted that based on his expectation of Bailey hitting the third ft, he hadn't made any contingency plan. I mean that's very basic, fundamental coaching.

combo of bad in game coaching and having a team (aside from one player) full of mid major level talent.   

The fact that bailey is possibly our second best player is highly concerning. 

Quote from: NickelDimer on January 08, 2020, 07:53:25 AM
This is pretty revealing and a really, really bad look for Wojo. He essentially admitted that based on his expectation of Bailey hitting the third ft, he hadn't made any contingency plan. I mean that's very basic, fundamental coaching.

Da dude's sure his 50% FT shoota's gonna drain all 3? Dat, write der y'all, sez it all wit regards ta hour head coach, aina?

Quote from: Strokin 3s on January 08, 2020, 07:38:02 AM
This guy gets it.

And not to single out one play within a game as the whole outcome would've shifted differently and this person otherwise played a very good game but Bailey stepping into the lane on that missed free throw and giving the guy a second chance and then having him make it was the difference between OT and winning in regulation.  Literally turned to my friend and said, "we better not lose by a one point".

The MU English Department took an L last night as well.

Quote from: Strokin 3s on January 08, 2020, 07:38:02 AM
This guy gets it.

And not to single out one play within a game as the whole outcome would've shifted differently and this person otherwise played a very good game but Bailey stepping into the lane on that missed free throw and giving the guy a second chance and then having him make it was the difference between OT and winning in regulation.  Literally turned to my friend and said, "we better not lose by a one point".

That was Koby not Bailey.

Quote from: MU2007 on January 07, 2020, 08:59:35 PM
Howard & Bailey: 58 points
Rest of Team: 22 points

That won't get it done.

Why can't 72.5% being scored by the top two get it done? That's cap

The game before our top two had 71.8% of the team's points and we kicked Novas @ss

Smh

Quote from: NickelDimer on January 08, 2020, 07:53:25 AM
This is pretty revealing and a really, really bad look for Wojo. He essentially admitted that based on his expectation of Bailey hitting the third ft, he hadn't made any contingency plan. I mean that's very basic, fundamental coaching.

See here's where I disagree. You don't want to put it in a players head that he's going to miss. That's just asking for problems, especially with young kids.

I doubt Bailey wanted to hear his coach on the sidelines yell "grab the rebound" as he's about to take his final shot. The players should know they need to crash the boards with reckless abandon. Fouls don't matter at that point.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 08, 2020, 12:00:05 PM
See here's where I disagree. You don't want to put it in a players head that he's going to miss. That's just asking for problems, especially with young kids.

I doubt Bailey wanted to hear his coach on the sidelines yell "grab the rebound" as he's about to take his final shot. The players should know they need to crash the boards with reckless abandon. Fouls don't matter at that point.

While I agree with this, obviously a reminder would have been helpful.  "Brendan is gonna nail these, but if there is an unlucky bounce you gotta get that rebound or foul whoever does" ought to have done it.

He subbed McEwen in for defense.  Understandable.  He should have had rebounders on the line just in case.

Quote from: NickelDimer on January 08, 2020, 07:53:25 AM
This is pretty revealing and a really, really bad look for Wojo. He essentially admitted that based on his expectation of Bailey hitting the third ft, he hadn't made any contingency plan. I mean that's very basic, fundamental coaching.

Seriously, if you haven't watched this press conference yet, you should. Wojo didn't even have an explanation or a rationale for his decisions.

Quote from: Jay Bee on January 08, 2020, 11:51:30 AM
Why can't 72.5% being scored by the top two get it done? That's cap

The game before our top two had 71.8% of the team's points and we kicked Novas @ss

Smh

Well, that 0.7% was the difference between winning and losing.  ;D

Quote from: Nukem2 on January 08, 2020, 01:06:17 AM
Sorry, this one was on the players right from the start.  One can quibble about some items, but it rae
ly came down to execution.

who selects the players?

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 08, 2020, 07:22:21 AM
They hadn't hit a three in the second half. They ran a good play and hit a semi contested shot. With seven seconds left you don't foul.

Let's be real.

Even if PC had missed that three, or Marquette had fouled and then closed out the game, there would still be the storyline about how Marquette (re: Wojo) barely beat a terrible PC squad.
This truly is a case of " you can't win for losing ".   For those of you too young to know the phrase I suggest you google it.

Quote from: ATWizJr on January 08, 2020, 03:47:37 PM
who selects the players?

Sorry bub, but was discussing specific games given the same set of actors however they may have come to be.   Is that hard to comprehend?

Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 08, 2020, 03:58:57 PM
Let's be real.

Even if PC had missed that three, or Marquette had fouled and then closed out the game, there would still be the storyline about how Marquette (re: Wojo) barely beat a terrible PC squad.
This truly is a case of " you can't win for losing ".   For those of you too young to know the phrase I suggest you google it.

Let's be real.

The storyline "Marquette lost at home to not very good (lousy?) Providence team is 100% accurate.

If we had squeaked by the storyline "Marquette squeaks by not very good (lousy?) Providence at home would be 100% accurate, also.

Reason? Last night Marquette played not very good (lousy?) Providence at home.

Why do you have problems with things that are obviously true?

Quote from: Jay Bee on January 08, 2020, 11:51:30 AM
Why can't 72.5% being scored by the top two get it done? That's cap

The game before our top two had 71.8% of the team's points and we kicked Novas @ss

Smh

You don't want the stats skewed this way for scoring...
You're too vulnerable on offense then, especially if any of the two get into foul trouble.  Not to mention, it makes it easier on the defense to guard you.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 08, 2020, 04:29:59 PM
Let's be real.

The storyline "Marquette lost at home to not very good (lousy?) Providence team is 100% accurate.

If we had squeaked by the storyline "Marquette squeaks by not very good (lousy?) Providence at home would be 100% accurate, also.

Reason? Last night Marquette played not very good (lousy?) Providence at home.

Why do you have problems with things that are obviously true?

Maybe, but that's a narrative that lasts until Saturday. Losing yesterday by a point is a narrative that will be relevant until Selection Sunday and possibly beyond.

Not trying to discount the loss, but why does everyone think this is such a TERRIBLE loss. Providence has pretty much had the same guys for at least the last year or two and have played us pretty close each time with the exception of maybe at Providence last year. We lost more than they did from last years team. They did have a bad non-con, but it's naive to think they aren't comparable to the other 9 big east teams. 

Quote from: AirPunch on January 08, 2020, 05:07:37 PM
Not trying to discount the loss, but why does everyone think this is such a TERRIBLE loss. Providence has pretty much had the same guys for at least the last year or two and have played us pretty close each time with the exception of maybe at Providence last year. We lost more than they did from last years team. They did have a bad non-con, but it's naive to think they aren't comparable to the other 9 big east teams.

Because, MU lost the game - Providence didn't win it.  There were a lot of coaching mistakes in the game that turned a sure W into an L. 

Quote from: AirPunch on January 08, 2020, 05:07:37 PM
Not trying to discount the loss, but why does everyone think this is such a TERRIBLE loss. Providence has pretty much had the same guys for at least the last year or two and have played us pretty close each time with the exception of maybe at Providence last year. We lost more than they did from last years team. They did have a bad non-con, but it's naive to think they aren't comparable to the other 9 big east teams.

It was a Quad 3 loss (as of today), and according to some analytics sites the easiest conference game to win from a percentages standpoint

Edited - Quad 3 as of today

Duplicate - my bad

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 08, 2020, 04:29:59 PM
Let's be real.

The storyline "Marquette lost at home to not very good (lousy?) Providence team is 100% accurate.

If we had squeaked by the storyline "Marquette squeaks by not very good (lousy?) Providence at home would be 100% accurate, also.

Reason? Last night Marquette played not very good (lousy?) Providence at home.

Why do you have problems with things that are obviously true?

I was commenting specifically about the micro focus on the three at the end of regulation.

I have no problem acknowledging that Marquette lost to a more physical, 9-6 PC team that played their asses off. Kudos to them.

What I do have a problem with, is those who attempt to distill an entire game into one play and then assign blame for the loss to one person.

Misses at the rim, missed free throws, sloppy passes at times, and Markus not getting some calls on offense.
Exploited mismatches, poor boxing out and  rebounding, and perhaps not fouling before the three at the end of regulation on defense.
All were factors in the loss and many of them were far more significant than a debatable intentional foul.

Marquette won as a team against VU and lost as a team against Cu and PC.
Credit and criticism should be shared with everyone in both cases.

I don't have a problem with that.

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 08, 2020, 05:09:19 PM
Because, MU lost the game - Providence didn't win it.  There were a lot of coaching mistakes in the game that turned a sure W into an L.

There were coaching mistakes for sure, but MU has been pretty solid under Wojo in close games during his tenure. 31-18 in games decided by 5 or less and 10-3 in OT (2 of the losses in that garbage first year and one last night). Had MU pulled it out, Wojo switching to zone in the last possession would have been seen as a big improvement in his in-game coaching as it completely fooled providence and they immediately turned it over.

The problem with Wojo is the piss poor game plans (especially in the biggest games of the year) and the beat downs that soon follow them. That has happened way too frequently.  However, if MU is able to stay in the game, Wojo has proven to be decent at closing games out.

Quote from: AirPunch on January 08, 2020, 05:38:54 PM


The problem with Wojo is the piss poor game plans (especially in the biggest games of the year) and the beat downs that soon follow them. That has happened way too frequently.  However, if MU is able to stay in the game, Wojo has proven to be decent at closing games out.

And that's why he's not a good coach...

It's one thing to lose by having bad shooting night but if you play playground ball for over half of the possessions then you deserve to lose and be fired.  As I've preached before and will continue to...... good coaches implement systems and they're executed out on the floor.

Quote from: WarriorFan on January 08, 2020, 12:51:26 AM
First, the Positive:
- Markus was excellent and did everything he possibly could
- Bailey was also solid.  His defense was very good and he was a confident contributor on offense
- Ed got pulled for trying a 15 footer and the team got to finish the game without his bad hands, turnstile defense and turnovers (yes, that's a positive)
- Jayce showed some real hustle and some great work on the boards

Then the negative:
- Wojo was totally out-coached.  Cooley had the (obvious) strategy to win and Wojo had nothing to counter it.  The strategy is not too complex.  Pressure Markus, abuse Markus to the greatest extent that the refs will allow.  Use about 15 fouls on him.  Wojo needs to come up with a way to win when this happens.
- Bench and supporting cast really didn't show up
- Theo
- The timeout (bad coaching)
- Not fouling (bad coaching)
- No rebound on BB's missed FT (bad coaching)
- No respect from the referees.  (bad coaching) Especially when Markus was getting abused the way he was.  There were several plays where he was fouled 2 or 3 times with no call. 

MU has superior talent to PC, the leading scorer in the NCAA, good size, good length, and a deeper bench.  When this combination loses the way MU did, it's on the coaches. 

I'm not saying Fire Wojo.  I'm saying he needs to be accountable for losses and needs to do more to put the players in a position to win.

Seton Hall is next, and they will do what PC did, but even better.  Wojo needs to figure out how to win with pressure on Markus.

Add bolded to bad coaching.  Wojo needs to stop yanking guys for "mistakes" such as missing a wide open 15' shot.  It was a FT.  Ed shoots 65% from FT line.  Not a bad shot.  We wonder why the player development under Wojo has been suspect, as have the levels of transfers out of program. 

This type of "coaching" is a confidence killer and frustrating AF.  Cain's psyche is fragile as can be too - he's butterfingers out there.  Cain is a coordinated athlete, and to struggle so much handling the ball tells me he's nervous AF stemming from lack of confidence.  Getting yanked for those kinds of "mistakes" certainly doesn't help to eliminate them, it does the exact opposite - exacerbates them.

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 08, 2020, 05:48:09 PM
And that's why he's not a good coach...

It's one thing to lose by having bad shooting night but if you play playground ball for over half of the possessions then you deserve to lose and be fired.  As I've preached before and will continue to...... good coaches implement systems and they're executed out on the floor.

Do you consider Ed Coley a good coach?  What is the system he has implemented?

Quote from: AirPunch on January 08, 2020, 05:38:54 PM
There were coaching mistakes for sure, but MU has been pretty solid under Wojo in close games during his tenure. 31-18 in games decided by 5 or less and 10-3 in OT (2 of the losses in that garbage first year and one last night). Had MU pulled it out, Wojo switching to zone in the last possession would have been seen as a big improvement in his in-game coaching as it completely fooled providence and they immediately turned it over.

The problem with Wojo is the piss poor game plans (especially in the biggest games of the year) and the beat downs that soon follow them. That has happened way too frequently.  However, if MU is able to stay in the game, Wojo has proven to be decent at closing games out.

Look at you providing historical facts to support your position while undercutting others.

Quote from: Nukem2 on January 08, 2020, 01:06:17 AM
Sorry, this one was on the players right from the start.  One can quibble about some items, but it rae
ly came down to execution.

Embarrassing post that I hope our players and recruits don't read.

Grow up. There is a guy who makes $2MM+ per year to get and prepare players for the Marquette team. That person deserves your angst, not the 19-22 year olds.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 08, 2020, 09:23:10 PM
Embarrassing post that I hope our players and recruits don't read.

Grow up. There is a guy who makes $2MM+ per year to get and prepare players for the Marquette team. That person deserves your angst, not the 19-22 year olds.

1) Of all the crap on here, this is what you find embarrassing??

2) Right, I'm sure the recruits that committed to our coach, or thinking about committing would much rather read our fans trashing the coach and saying he should be fired. That's gotta be super encouraging!

Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 08, 2020, 09:28:49 PM
1) Of all the crap on here, this is what you find embarrassing??

2) Right, I'm sure the recruits that committed to our coach, or thinking about committing would much rather read our fans trashing the coach and saying he should be fired. That's gotta be super encouraging!

1) Of the major point of my post you focus on the first sentence and not the actual subject?

2) I do think recruits would find it mature and civil of our fans to voice problems with the coach rather than the players.

3) Who said ANYTHING about Wojo being fired? You need to skip the last beer of the night, read what I wrote and disagree with the actual content of my post.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 08, 2020, 10:10:37 PM
1) Of the major point of my post you focus on the first sentence and not the actual subject?

The major point is that Wojo deserves blame.  And that you think any criticism of the players, or their play is embarrassing?  Did I not interpret that correctly?  I think plenty of the criticism of Wojo has been embarrassing, and that it's ok to discuss how ____ player had a bad game.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 08, 2020, 10:10:37 PM
2) I do think recruits would find it mature and civil of our fans to voice problems with the coach rather than the players.

I think student athletes are probably their own worst critics.  They don't need our criticism, they don't need our opinions, and they don't need our criticism of their teammates and coaches either.  But we provide all of that.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 08, 2020, 10:10:37 PM
3) Who said ANYTHING about Wojo being fired? You need to skip the last beer of the night, read what I wrote and disagree with the actual content of my post.

Wow.  Ok St. WhiteTrash.  I think I just did.  Oh, and Who said ANYTHING about Wojo being fired?  See a few posts above yours.  Have you not been reading anything here the past week???

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 08, 2020, 05:48:09 PM
And that's why he's not a good coach...

It's one thing to lose by having bad shooting night but if you play playground ball for over half of the possessions then you deserve to lose and be fired. 

Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 08, 2020, 06:29:10 PM
Add bolded to bad coaching.  Wojo needs to stop yanking guys for "mistakes" such as missing a wide open 15' shot.  It was a FT.  Ed shoots 65% from FT line.  Not a bad shot. 

You've seen Ed shoot, right?  EVERY shot that isn't a layup from Ed is a bad shot.

The off-season nonsense that Ed could play the 4 either offensively or defensively is proven to be just that, nonsense.  Ed shouldn't be taking shots like that except in the most dire of circumstances (shot clock expiration, end of half/game), and certainly not early in the shot clock.

m'

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 09, 2020, 07:37:43 AM
You've seen Ed shoot, right?  EVERY shot that isn't a layup from Ed is a bad shot.

The off-season nonsense that Ed could play the 4 either offensively or defensively is proven to be just that, nonsense.  Ed shouldn't be taking shots like that except in the most dire of circumstances (shot clock expiration, end of half/game), and certainly not early in the shot clock.

Not to mention he couldn't guard anybody in that game or box anybody out.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 08, 2020, 06:29:10 PM
Add bolded to bad coaching.  Wojo needs to stop yanking guys for "mistakes" such as missing a wide open 15' shot.  It was a FT.  Ed shoots 65% from FT line.  Not a bad shot.  We wonder why the player development under Wojo has been suspect, as have the levels of transfers out of program. 

This type of "coaching" is a confidence killer and frustrating AF.  Cain's psyche is fragile as can be too - he's butterfingers out there.  Cain is a coordinated athlete, and to struggle so much handling the ball tells me he's nervous AF stemming from lack of confidence.  Getting yanked for those kinds of "mistakes" certainly doesn't help to eliminate them, it does the exact opposite - exacerbates them.

Ed's shot wasn't a bad one but he was playing pretty poorly.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 09, 2020, 07:49:02 AM
Ed's shot wasn't a bad one but he was playing pretty poorly.

I'm sure some of the board's stat gurus can find this, but I'd like to see what Ed's FG% is on shots beyond 5 feet and what it is beyond 10 feet. I'm fairly confident it quickly goes to 0% past there.

It was a wide open shot in rhythm at the free throw line.  No problem at all with that. 

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 09, 2020, 09:07:26 AM
It was a wide open shot in rhythm at the free throw line.  No problem at all with that.

Plus, I think the shot clock was at 5.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 09, 2020, 09:07:26 AM
It was a wide open shot in rhythm at the free throw line.  No problem at all with that.

I don't recall Ed ever making a shot from beyond 5 feet, but if the stats show that he has been effective on any sort of jump shot I will concede.

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 09, 2020, 07:37:43 AM
You've seen Ed shoot, right?  EVERY shot that isn't a layup from Ed is a bad shot.

The off-season nonsense that Ed could play the 4 either offensively or defensively is proven to be just that, nonsense.  Ed shouldn't be taking shots like that except in the most dire of circumstances (shot clock expiration, end of half/game), and certainly not early in the shot clock.

I understand your point, yet Ed's shooting form, and how he shoots it from the FT line, look pretty good to me.  He's a D-1 player, on scholarship - I just don't think you bench a kid for shooting that shot - particularly not when you have a teammate (albeit super talented), who can launch 25-foot, step back 3-point shots, just 5 seconds into a possession.

My frustration with Wojo's coaching approach is that unless you are one of the Top 3 players, he'd be a hard guy to play for.  The leash gets quite short, roles are inconsistent, and you just don't know day to day, game to game, what your role will be.  Most people don't function well in uncertainty and inconsistency.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 09, 2020, 07:49:02 AM
Ed's shot wasn't a bad one but he was playing pretty poorly.

Agreed it wasn't a bad shot and I don't think that's why he was pulled. I would love to see his season +/-, I think Paint Touches had a running tally at some point this year. Just seems to turn it over on routine plays, stop the ball for a low% shot regardless of circumstance, or get backed down in the post for an easy 2 by a bigger center with consistency. Could be the eye test lying to me though.

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 09, 2020, 10:19:49 AM
I don't recall Ed ever making a shot from beyond 5 feet, but if the stats show that he has been effective on any sort of jump shot I will concede.

I linked last season as he hasn't made any this season.  Scroll down and they segment twos by range per the play by play stats to provide a bigger sample size.

http://barttorvik.com/team.php?year=2019&team=Marquette

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2020, 10:29:08 AM
I linked last season as he hasn't made any this season.  Scroll down and they segment twos by range per the play by play stats to provide a bigger sample size.

http://barttorvik.com/team.php?year=2019&team=Marquette

Great info.  Well..he is 0-9 this year in "long 2's," and only 27% last year..so not very good.  But, still don't think it helps a player's confidence getting yanked for essentially missing a wide open shot at FT line.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 09, 2020, 10:39:45 AM
Great info.  Well..he is 0-9 this year in "long 2's," and only 27% last year..so not very good.  But, still don't think it helps a player's confidence getting yanked for essentially missing a wide open shot at FT line.

Well we don't know why he was pulled.  Ed's a fifth year senior.  He's a big boy.

Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 08, 2020, 08:11:25 AM
combo of bad in game coaching and having a team (aside from one player) full of mid major level talent.   

The fact that bailey is possibly our second best player is highly concerning.

So, does this make Wojo an excellent coach who gets top 10 wins out of mid-major level talent in the toughest conference in basketball?

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2020, 09:39:23 AM
Plus, I think the shot clock was at 5.

I had to re-watch, but 16 seconds on the shot clock when he caught the ball.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 09, 2020, 10:39:45 AM
Great info.  Well..he is 0-9 this year in "long 2's," and only 27% last year..so not very good.  But, still don't think it helps a player's confidence getting yanked for essentially missing a wide open shot at FT line.

Right, and I don't know what the cut-off for a long 2 is, but he took that from 16 feet.

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 09, 2020, 11:29:36 AM
I had to re-watch, but 16 seconds on the shot clock when he caught the ball.

Stand corrected. 

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 07, 2020, 08:40:32 PM
Said this in the game thread but woof

Providence #99 NET (puke) with losses to Northwestern, Penn, Long Beach State, College of Charleston & Rhode Island

If you think that that was the team that showed up to play MU you are mistaken.  They have improved immensely since having a very poor start to the season.  They are legitimately at the top of the Big East standings.

Quote from: 4everDawson on January 09, 2020, 12:11:29 PM
If you think that that was the team that showed up to play MU you are mistaken.  They have improved immensely since having a very poor start to the season.  They are legitimately at the top of the Big East standings.

I agree with this, Providence is not going to finish at or particularly near the bottom of the standings.  We still should have won that game.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2020, 12:02:36 PM
Stand corrected.

You owe me for the pain inflicted in having to watch it again.

Quote from: CTWarrior on January 09, 2020, 12:13:31 PM
I agree with this, Providence is not going to finish at or particularly near the bottom of the standings.  We still should have won that game.

That's what I was wondering. If every team in the conference is supposedly better that Providence, then how the heck is Marquette going to win enough games to make the  NCAA tournament? Even the NIT ???  Would love it if someone who has seen all the teams play would give their take on the league top to bottom.

Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 12:21:25 PM
That's what I was wondering. If every team in the conference is supposedly better that Providence, then how the heck is Marquette going to win enough games to make the  NCAA tournament? Even the NIT ???  Would love it if someone who has seen all the teams play would give their take on the league top to bottom.

I've seen everyone play and I'm still not sure. Butler looks really good, that's about the only thing that's concrete. Villanova and Creighton I think are good, but have shown inconsistencies. Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, and DePaul look really good at times and really bad at times. The only team I think is actually pretty bad is Georgetown, who did fine in non-con, but wins over Texas and Syracuse really aren't that impressive anymore and their depleted roster will be a thorn in their side with the consistent challenge of conference play.

Basically...

Really good: Butler
Probably good: Villanova and Creighton
Flip a coin: Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, DePaul
Not good: Georgetown

I would hope that everyone on this board has seen every Big East team play way more than once this year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
I've seen everyone play and I'm still not sure. Butler looks really good, that's about the only thing that's concrete. Villanova and Creighton I think are good, but have shown inconsistencies. Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, and DePaul look really good at times and really bad at times. The only team I think is actually pretty bad is Georgetown, who did fine in non-con, but wins over Texas and Syracuse really aren't that impressive anymore and their depleted roster will be a thorn in their side with the consistent challenge of conference play.

Basically...

Really good: Butler
Probably good: Villanova and Creighton
Flip a coin: Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, DePaul
Not good: Georgetown

Really good: Butler, Seton Hall
Probably good: Villanova and Creighton
Decent, but not great: Marquette, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, DePaul, Georgetown

Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on January 09, 2020, 01:19:44 PM
I would hope that everyone on this board has seen every Big East team play way more than once this year.

I haven't seen a single BE team play any games unless they have played Marquette.

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 09, 2020, 11:33:42 AM
Right, and I don't know what the cut-off for a long 2 is, but he took that from 16 feet.

Yea.  The stats linked by Blackheart certainly are worse than I would have imagined, and support your position.  Yet I do feel a high major kid should be able to take that shot without incurring the wrath of our coach.  No doubt there have been far worse shot attempts launched by our guys than that shot!

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 09, 2020, 12:17:31 PM
You owe me for the pain inflicted in having to watch it again.

Deepest apologies.  Your choice: 72 virgins upon death or Arby's?

(https://www.buyvia.com/i/2019/08/arbys-coupons-8-18-19.png)

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
I've seen everyone play and I'm still not sure. Butler looks really good, that's about the only thing that's concrete. Villanova and Creighton I think are good, but have shown inconsistencies. Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, and DePaul look really good at times and really bad at times. The only team I think is actually pretty bad is Georgetown, who did fine in non-con, but wins over Texas and Syracuse really aren't that impressive anymore and their depleted roster will be a thorn in their side with the consistent challenge of conference play.

Basically...

Really good: Butler
Probably good: Villanova and Creighton
Flip a coin: Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, St. John's, DePaul
Not good: Georgetown

So it looks like Marquette has to scrape nine wins out of the flip a coin group, or maybe steal a win out of either VU or CU to get to the dance. Not a lot of margin for error but doable I guess.
I don't think we're winning the BEast tournament this year.

Do you think  Marquette has the personnel to make enough adjustments to beat Creighton at home? I didn't get to see the first game. 

Side question.... What record gets us into the dance?

Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 09, 2020, 02:20:25 PM
So it looks like Marquette has to scrape nine wins out of the flip a coin group, or maybe steal a win out of either VU or CU to get to the dance. Not a lot of margin for error but doable I guess.
I don't think we're winning the BEast tournament this year.

Do you think  Marquette has the personnel to make enough adjustments to beat Creighton at home? I didn't get to see the first game. 

Side question.... What record gets us into the dance?

In order...

• Anyone could win the Big East Tournament this year.
  
• I do. For me, that was Wojo's most poorly coached game of the year. While Wisconsin hit prayers and Maryland just manhandled us, Creighton won due to coaching decisions and failures to adjust. I don't expect it to be that easy in the return trip.
  
• Hard to say right now. 10-8 stone cold lock. 9-9 probably gets us in. 8-10 we'll probably be crossing fingers for Dayton. But it's really early and the bubble already looks congested.