1. Central Arkansas is not very good. And willing to throw their weight around without regard for life or limb.
2. But Wojo had the team ready to play.
3. Symir is going to be just fine. PG position will be in good hands while he is at MU. Still has to get better on defense. Good that he got so much run today.
4. Highlight of the game for me was watching Bailey get back out on the floor. Conference season is upon us. All hands on deck.
5. Which means Koby needs to heal.
6. The ball was shared well today.
7. Philosophical question. At what point in a game like today should you put in the walk ons? (Yes, one is on scholarship. You know what I mean.) I might have done it sooner. But, you want to keep the margin for metrics purposes. I think I would have done it at around the 3 minute mark.
8. On to conference play. No bad losses. Giddyup.
Garbage team. But we played pretty darn well.
Everyone got to have some fun.
Regarding the walk-ons, I too think more time would have been called for. 2-3 minutes.
Good teams are supposed to trash bad teams. We did just that today. Scoop has gotten all over Wojo and the team when they fail to do so, need to point out the opposite when it is accomplished.
Wojo had the team ready coming off a few day break for the guys.
Got to experiment with Cain and Bailey on the court as well as Jayce and Theo.
Symir should be getting more and more confident as he gets some run. Will have moments where he will play poorly, but getting out there will only hasten his development.
Quote from: AZWarrior on December 28, 2019, 03:24:59 PM
Regarding the walk-ons, I too think more time would have been called for. 2-3 minutes.
Would have had them in at 4-5 minute mark when we were leading by 50. Had one of our rotation players gotten hurt at that point (or any point up until the last minute of play when they finally were put in the game), would have been awful, and truly indefensible.
Guys can get hurt in practice any day of the week. Maybe we should stop practicing so guys like Koby or Greg don't get injured in meaningless reps.
They can get hurt walking outside on a snowy day in Milwaukee winters. Maybe we should excuse them from leaving their dorms if the weather isn't pristine.
They can get hurt walking across a street in downtown Milwaukee. Maybe we should provide them all a tank with a driver to ensure they get to and from classes safely.
Wojo was working on different lineups and looks. Double big lineups, double 6'7" wing lineups, zone looks, etc. I'll let Wojo decide when he's seen everything he wants to see.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 28, 2019, 03:37:03 PM
Would have had them in at 4-5 minute mark when we were leading by 50. Had one of our rotation players gotten hurt at that point (or any point up until the last minute of play when they finally were put in the game), would have been awful, and truly indefensible.
If the lead dropped from 50 to 35 in the last 4-5 minutes then our NET rank at the end of the season could be a few to several spots lower and could cost us a seedline.
It sucks, but the NET rewards teams that put their foot on the gas and don't let up.
They aren't very good. But they are good
Good win
Pomeroy went from 31 to start the day to 26 now.
MU wins by twice as much as it was projected big factor ......some blowout wins by our opponents helped too.....
I believe Ed set the all time single game shots blocked record and while at it the career mark. I understand he is undersized, but he also has zero post moves. Glad we picked up Jayce
You can see this team starting to gel and improve. I'm hoping this is a case where we peak in March. Cain, Bailey, and Elliott are settling into their roles nicely.
When our biggest problem by far is: "When should the walk-ons get in?" ... it is a very good day.
Enjoyed watching everybody have fun, playing good team basketball, hitting shots, running the court, playing D, etc. Every Warrior did well.
Things that especially stood out to me were Bailey's rebounding (finished with 12) and Markus' passing (he had 5 assists and could have had twice that many if a few more wide-open shots went in).
Also, a game like that can get ragged, but we had only 12 turnovers. And a couple of those were stepping on the sideline while getting ready to shoot 3s.
Get McEwen healthy, keep everybody else healthy in practice, and we're about as ready for BEast play as we can be.
We Are Marquette!
Nothin' gained bye playin' poop like dis, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2019, 05:00:11 PM
Nothin' gained bye playin' poop like dis, hey?
Every high major team does and has forever.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2019, 05:00:11 PM
Nothin' gained bye playin' poop like dis, hey?
Shoor. Pleez poynt owt won prow-gramm dat duzn't doh, oo'n'a'a?
Quote from: MuMark on December 28, 2019, 03:53:59 PM
Pomeroy went from 31 to start the day to 26 now.
MU wins by twice as much as it was projected big factor ......some blowout wins by our opponents helped too.....
Up to 25
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2019, 05:00:11 PM
Nothin' gained bye playin' poop like dis, hey?
Looking at Heisenberg's charts, apparently MU has been playing cupcakes like this for a long time.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2019, 05:00:11 PM
Nothin' gained bye playin' poop like dis, hey?
Ignorant, check the. Championship season schedule.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2019, 05:00:11 PM
Nothin' gained bye playin' poop like dis, hey?
It helps point out who the complete morons on scoop are.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 28, 2019, 03:44:33 PM
If the lead dropped from 50 to 35 in the last 4-5 minutes then our NET rank at the end of the season could be a few to several spots lower and could cost us a seedline.
It sucks, but the NET rewards teams that put their foot on the gas and don't let up.
Sure. Yet lots of variables well outside of our control - such as margin of victory or defeat by our opponents also affect our ratings.
We take care of business against solid opponents and our seed will take care of itself. Personally, I feel rewarding the walk ons in the program who grind away all season long with 5 minutes in a game is simply the right thing to do.
This all said, as another posted, when this is one of our bigger debates as a takeaway from a game - it's an overall great "problem" to discuss.
I'd like to offer a Crean compliment. I always thought it was nice of him to put the walk-ons in against Kentucky in '03.
Central Arkansas is currently the only 300+ team we have played all year.
As a reminder, these schools also played Central Arkansas this year
Duke
Baylor
Georgetown
Utah
Wichita state
No one beat the Bears by more than Marquette did today.
God game against a poor team. Let's hope there is carryover.
Good opportunity to see what different rotations can be offered without Mcewen on the floor. Lots of versatility and many more deserving candidates for minutes.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2019, 08:11:51 PM
Good opportunity to see what different rotations can be offered without Mcewen on the floor. Lots of versatility and many more deserving candidates for minutes.
We were playing Central Arkansas. My guess is Koby would've looked quite good today, too.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2019, 08:37:06 PM
We were playing Central Arkansas. My guess is Koby would've looked quite good today, too.
Yep - Just like how he dominated against Robert Morris, Jacksonville, Grambling and NDSU.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2019, 08:42:38 PM
Yep - Just like how he dominated against Robert Morris, Jacksonville, Grambling and NDSU.
As did Symir, Brendan, Theo...
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2019, 08:42:38 PM
Yep - Just like how he dominated against Robert Morris, Jacksonville, Grambling and NDSU.
You forgot how Kobe did against Purdue, as well as some of the defense and assist games he had against others. He is an important player for us....as is Symir.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2019, 08:47:53 PM
As did Symir, Brendan, Theo...
Which of those 3 players you mentioned did you expect to be the second scoring option behind Markus?
Quote from: Cheeks on December 28, 2019, 09:13:28 PM
You forgot how Kobe did against Purdue, as well as some of the defense and assist games he had against others. He is an important player for us....as is Symir.
I didn't forget - I'm still waiting for any shred of consistency.
Quote from: connie on December 28, 2019, 07:26:17 PM
God game against a poor team. Let's hope there is carryover.
God approves
When does Koby come back?
Regards to walkons:
Wojo has had a very short "leash" when it comes to putting in walkons. One that needs to extend.
But to interject with "ectera player" may get hurt.. They may get hurt in practice or a game. UT playing them an extra 2 minutes does not increase injury factor at all.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2019, 08:37:06 PM
We were playing Central Arkansas. My guess is Koby would've looked quite good today, too.
And Kentucky lost to an Evansville in rupp arena, Duke to Woodford in Cameron indoor...so what's your point wades. If we would have struggled or even worse, lost, etc etc, don't take any of these games for granted. A win is a win is a win. Take them and prepare for the next, regardless of who it is. These are still div I players. Central Arkansas is the woffords and evansvilles of the ncaa
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
Which of those 3 players you mentioned did you expect to be the second scoring option behind Markus?
Sacar.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
Which of those 3 players you mentioned did you expect to be the second scoring option behind Markus?
Koby is perfectly fine. For the subset (or majority) of our fan base who doesn't understand what happens in basketball besides scoring... Koby is an indesipensible part of our offense whose absence would hurt very hard.
Marquette is #1 in the NCAA in three fg%.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 28, 2019, 09:45:15 PM
And Kentucky lost to an Evansville in rupp arena, Duke to Woodford in Cameron indoor...so what's your point wades. If we would have struggled or even worse, lost, etc etc, don't take any of these games for granted. A win is a win is a win. Take them and prepare for the next, regardless of who it is. These are still div I players. Central Arkansas is the woffords and evansvilles of the ncaa
My point is claiming Symir should be playing over Koby because Symir looked great against one of the worst D1 teams in college basketball while Koby was out injured is taking quite a leap of faith. Not many players in Marquette's history would struggle against what Central Arkansas is, including Koby.
Quote from: #UnleashJayce on December 28, 2019, 09:48:22 PM
Koby is perfectly fine. For the subset (or majority) of our fan base who doesn't understand what happens in basketball besides scoring... Koby is an indesipensible part of our offense whose absence would hurt very hard.
Markus Howard is indispensable. Koby Mcewen is not even remotely close to that.
Any combination of Elliott, Cain, Bailey and Torrence are more deserving of a chunk of minutes Mcewen has been playing so far. Each of those players offer most of the positives Mcewen does, without the embarrassing offensive output he's put forth so far.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2019, 10:10:34 PM
Markus Howard is indispensable. Koby Mcewen is not even remotely close to that.
Any combination of Elliott, Cain, Bailey and Torrence are more deserving of a chunk of minutes Mcewen has been playing so far. Each of those players offer most of the positives Mcewen does, without the embarrassing offensive output he's put forth so far.
This is a joke right?
3rd leading scorer
Leads team in assists
2nd leading rebounder
I'm not sure how that could be considered embarassing, but I guess everybody is entitled to their take, no matter how bizarre it is.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2019, 09:48:53 PM
Marquette is #1 in the NCAA in three fg%.
I have to admit ... I didn't see that as likely to be the case
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 28, 2019, 10:26:12 PM
This is a joke right?
3rd leading scorer
Leads team in assists
2nd leading rebounder
I'm not sure how that could be considered embarassing, but I guess everybody is entitled to their take, no matter how bizarre it is.
I think if you review Panda's posts, especially of late, you will see he isn't joking but is dead wrong in his analysis.
As you correctly point out on the stats and that doesn't even account for his upper classman swagger, defense, etc. Symir looks like he will be terrific, but he's young and needs to do it against quality teams...McEwen has struggled with his shot, but also led us to our biggest win of the season.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2019, 09:48:53 PM
Marquette is #1 in the NCAA in three fg%.
Wowza! Let's live by the three!
As Connie said, let us see if we have sufficient carryover against Creighton.
Practice season is over. Real season starts Wednesday.
Now every blown coverage, bad pass, careless turnover, stupid foul, forced shot will bite us severely.
We thought we were pretty high & mighty after the SC game. Maryland seemed to let quite a bit of puffiness out.
Let see how we do against Creighton.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2019, 09:48:53 PM
Marquette is #1 in the NCAA in three fg%.
ESPN shows us #3. Either way, color me impressed. Unfortunately we are #313 in 2pt FG%, so something clearly we need to improve.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 29, 2019, 07:23:37 AM
ESPN shows us #3. Either way, color me impressed. Unfortunately we are #313 in 2pt FG%, so something clearly we need to improve.
We are No. 3 when all games are factored in, but No. 1 in games involving only two D1 teams. I started looking at this and thought it was interesting enough to start a separate thread.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59585.0
Quote from: Cheeks on December 28, 2019, 11:16:30 PM
I think if you review Panda's posts, especially of late, you will see he isn't joking but is dead wrong in his analysis.
As you correctly point out on the stats and that doesn't even account for his upper classman swagger, defense, etc. Symir looks like he will be terrific, but he's young and needs to do it against quality teams...McEwen has struggled with his shot, but also led us to our biggest win of the season.
You mean the guy with the worst efg and the second worst turnover percentage on the team?
Or is it the same guy who continues to throw up awful/dumb shots to try and shoot himself out of a slump or the guy who sulked for two straight games because of his poor performance?
But leadership!!! Swagger! C'mon cheeks be better. I'm not advocating taking all of his minutes away, but there are more deserving players in line.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 28, 2019, 05:34:40 PM
Ignorant, check the. Championship season schedule.
Stop living in the past. Last season, the National Champion Virginia Cavaliers played KenPom #342 Coppin State, #293 George Washington, #291 Towson, and #333 Morgan State.
Playing crappy teams is what contenders do.
Symir is better than Dawson was. However, arguing that he should be starting over Koby is severe Dawson-itis.
Call me crazy but I don't think a shoot first 2guard with minimal distribution skills is the best option for the team with an All-American ball dominant off guard.
Skill wise, Koby is obviously further along, but this team will run much more efficiently with a pass first PG.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on December 29, 2019, 08:09:19 AM
Stop living in the past. Last season, the National Champion Virginia Cavaliers played KenPom #342 Coppin State, #293 George Washington, #291 Towson, and #333 Morgan State.
Playing crappy teams is what contenders do.
I agree with you. However, that is the only point of reference for some of our 70s fan base.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 07:38:13 AM
You mean the guy with the worst efg and the second worst turnover percentage on the team?
Or is it the same guy who continues to throw up awful/dumb shots to try and shoot himself out of a slump or the guy who sulked for two straight games because of his poor performance?
But leadership!!! Swagger! C'mon cheeks be better. I'm not advocating taking all of his minutes away, but there are more deserving players in line.
He's been bad lately but he's also one of only three guys capable of running the PG position. And he is the best defender of those three guys.
He'll get better.
Quote from: tower912 on December 29, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
Symir is better than Dawson was. However, arguing that he should be starting over Koby is severe Dawson-itis.
#2 KenPom comp for Symir is... John Dawson.
lol
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 07:38:13 AM
You mean the guy with the worst efg and the second worst turnover percentage on the team?
Or is it the same guy who continues to throw up awful/dumb shots to try and shoot himself out of a slump or the guy who sulked for two straight games because of his poor performance?
But leadership!!! Swagger! C'mon cheeks be better. I'm not advocating taking all of his minutes away, but there are more deserving players in line.
I mean the guy that willed us to victory over Purdue, which apparently that game didn't exist in your mind.
I mean the guy that the other players have rallied around, who plays tough defense, rock solid from the free throw line, despite not shooting well is finding his teammates (2nd in assists) and goes in with the trees to get rebounds...that's the guy.
Yes, he is frustrated, he wants to do better...I'll take those kind of guys on my team all day and all night. He hasn't given up, he is doing well in other areas to help his team win. That guy.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 09:04:36 AM
Call me crazy but I don't think a shoot first 2guard with minimal distribution skills is the best option for the team with an All-American ball dominant off guard.
Skill wise, Koby is obviously further along, but this team will run much more efficiently with a pass first PG.
We are fortunate to have Koby and Symir on this team with two different skill sets. Koby is better defender, better rebounder, better free throw shooter, Symir better passer.
Looking forward to watching them both play for MU.
McEwen is currently having career high in assists, FT % (94%). His 3 point shooting % is career low, but not that far off his last year at Utah State.
Scored 23 vs Purdue. Scored 19 vs Wisconsin....two high level teams...shot 7-11 from 3 in those games. He has struggled since. Symir has put up good numbers against teams that couldn't hold Purdue or Wisconsin's jock....he also hasn't had the opportunity. I'm happy with both guys.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 09:04:36 AM
Call me crazy but I don't think a shoot first 2guard with minimal distribution skills is the best option for the team with an All-American ball dominant off guard.
Skill wise, Koby is obviously further along, but this team will run much more efficiently with a pass first PG.
Symir stinks defensively and is more limited than Koby offensively. You think that's a good change to make?
Quote from: AZWarrior on December 28, 2019, 03:24:59 PM
Regarding the walk-ons, I too think more time would have been called for. 2-3 minutes.
Frankly I don't care if they ever play.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2019, 12:23:08 PM
Frankly I don't care if they ever play.
There is a bit of history here. Some of the walk-ons last year not thrilled with Wojo and left the team. He's a hard ass on them in practice, demands a bunch...personally, that's the deal of being a walk-on...don't like it, don't do it...a decision some of them made.
This is hardly a Wojo thing. One had to attend a few practices with other MU (other schools) coaches and Walk-one often not treated with kid gloves.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 12:30:33 PM
There is a bit of history here. Some of the walk-ons last year not thrilled with Wojo and left the team. He's a hard ass on them in practice, demands a bunch...personally, that's the deal of being a walk-on...don't like it, don't do it...a decision some of them made.
Fine by me.
Walkons only ones that also signed the letter?
Quote from: tower912 on December 29, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
Symir is better than Dawson was. However, arguing that he should be starting over Koby is severe Dawson-itis.
Yea. Koby is definitely struggling, but let's get real: Koby is miles beyond Derrick Wilson as a player, so far from comparable situations.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 29, 2019, 11:40:27 AM
#2 KenPom comp for Symir is... John Dawson.
lol
Funny...and we have people salivating over Symir. Let's just call him who he is: Magic Symir. I mean that bounce pass to Ed Morrow on the break was Magic Johnson-esque which clearly is saying Symir will be as good as Magic Johnson.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 09:04:36 AM
Call me crazy but I don't think a shoot first 2guard with minimal distribution skills is the best option for the team with an All-American ball dominant off guard.
Skill wise, Koby is obviously further along, but this team will run much more efficiently with a pass first PG.
You know what a "pass first point guard" is? A guard who can't score and limits your offense. Symir can pass and I think will develop nicely, but playing him over Koby is an insane idea.
I have always said that I think Symir is going to be very good, that I have no worries about the PG position while he is here. Koby is bigger, stronger, a better defender and rebounder and is doing everything right except hit jumpers. The Big East is a big strong guard league.
I love what Symir is doing. It is what I expected. But if healthy, Koby starts. And if he isn't in foul trouble, Koby plays more minutes.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
You know what a "pass first point guard" is? A guard who can't score and limits your offense. Symir can pass and I think will develop nicely, but playing him over Koby is an insane idea.
Honestly both sides are insane.
People thinking Koby shouldn't play. And you calling Symir playing over koby at times insane as well.
Symir was a difference maker vs Kstate until Koby got his head outta his ass with 5 min left.
Both contribute. Koby is essential down the stretch to close out games with his D, rebounding and free throw shooting. But there have absolutely been stretches where the guy has needed to sit for a bit and get his head on straight.
Quote from: tower912 on December 29, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
You're crazy.
We'll find out a lot in the next two games. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of the team's success.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on December 29, 2019, 01:24:51 PM
Honestly both sides are insane.
People thinking Koby shouldn't play. And you calling Symir playing over koby at times insane as well.
Symir was a difference maker vs Kstate until Koby got his head outta his ass with 5 min left.
Both contribute. Koby is essential down the stretch to close out games with his D, rebounding and free throw shooting. But there have absolutely been stretches where the guy has needed to sit for a bit and get his head on straight.
What do mean both sides are crazy? Who said Symir should not play at all?
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on December 29, 2019, 01:24:51 PM
Honestly both sides are insane.
People thinking Koby shouldn't play. And you calling Symir playing over koby at times insane as well.
Symir was a difference maker vs Kstate until Koby got his head outta his ass with 5 min left.
Both contribute. Koby is essential down the stretch to close out games with his D, rebounding and free throw shooting. But there have absolutely been stretches where the guy has needed to sit for a bit and get his head on straight.
Just to be very clear. I'm not saying Koby shouldn't play. My point is Torrence is a much better PG for this team and Koby is better served playing off the ball as I have not seen much PG capabilities from him up to this point.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 01:29:55 PM
Just to be very clear. I'm not saying Koby shouldn't play. My point is Torrence is a much better PG for this team and Koby is better served playing off the ball as I have not seen much PG capabilities from him up to this point.
Yeah I just think this is wrong. Symir is used best in the role he plays now.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2019, 01:29:22 PM
What do mean both sides are crazy? Who said Symir should not play at all?
"Playing him over Koby is an insane idea"
There have absolutely been times where that was far from insane.
Maybe you meant, "Starting Symir over Koby ever game and giving him more minutes every game than Koby is an insane idea". That could be.
Then good news is that Symir is showing enough flashes for someone to be championing him. Versatility is one of the defining characteristics of this team.
Pick any one of these three:. Theo, Jayce, Ed.
Any one of these two:. Brendan, Jamal.
Any three of these 5:. Markus, Sacar, Koby, Greg, Symir.
Whatever 5 you pick, they can compete at a high level. That is a gift
To borrow a cliche from last year, the strength of this team is the team. Hopefully, it holds up better than last year.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on December 29, 2019, 01:32:21 PM
"Playing him over Koby is an insane idea"
There have absolutely been times where that was far from insane.
Maybe you meant, "Starting Symir over Koby ever game and giving him more minutes every game than Koby is an insane idea". That could be.
Oh great. Pedantic bullsh*t.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 01:29:55 PM
Just to be very clear. I'm not saying Koby shouldn't play. My point is Torrence is a much better PG for this team and Koby is better served playing off the ball as I have not seen much PG capabilities from him up to this point.
The team leader in assists hasn't shown much PG capabilities.....uhm, ok.
In general, Wojo has used Symir just about right, IMHO.
Excited about Symir's future, including the rest of this season.
Hoping we see more Purdue-level Koby (or at least close to it) during BEast play.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
The team leader in assists hasn't shown much PG capabilities.....uhm, ok.
*Second highest turnover percentage on the team.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on December 29, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
A quote is a quote
You took it out of context. No one was saying that Koby shouldn't play. panda said as much.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 02:01:23 PM
*Second highest turnover percentage on the team.
Which is often the case for PGs to be up there in turnover % because they have the ball in their hands the most. There are exceptions, of course.
Should Symir play more instead of Howard, since Howard has the highest turnover % by a lot and often when he is playing in the PG position?
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
Which is often the case for PGs to be up there in turnover % because they have the ball in their hands the most. There are exceptions, of course.
Should Symir play more instead of Howard, since Howard has the highest turnover % by a lot and often when he is playing in the PG position?
Where'd you pull that Markus stat from?
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
Which is often the case for PGs to be up there in turnover % because they have the ball in their hands the most. There are exceptions, of course.
Should Symir play more instead of Howard, since Howard has the highest turnover % by a lot and often when he is playing in the PG position?
#fakenews
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 29, 2019, 04:04:43 PM
#fakenews
Derrick Wilson and Todd Mayo were 2nd and 3rd highest turnovers for Buzz
Junior Cadoughan was 1st in turnovers his senior season, Vander Blue 2nd
Junior was highest in turnovers his junior year, DJO was second, Vander 3rd
Dwight Buycks highest in turnovers his senior year, DJO second
DJO tied for worst his first year at MU
DJ second highest TOs trailing only McNeal his freshmen, sophomore and junior years
Travis Diener 2nd in turnovers his junior and senior years
Cordell Henry 2nd in turnovers his senior year
Etc
PGs have the ball in their hands the most, the backup PGs have it plenty as well. More opportunities for turnovers as a result. Exceptions exist.
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 03:49:25 PM
Where'd you pull that Markus stat from?
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2020.html
Markus averaging 3.5 turnovers per game, highest on the team.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 04:26:54 PM
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2020.html
Markus averaging 3.5 turnovers per game, highest on the team.
You said Markus had the highest turnover %. He does not.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 29, 2019, 04:04:43 PM
#fakenews
He's right that point guards have a higher turnover percentage then other players do.
Quote from: THRILLHO on December 29, 2019, 04:38:25 PM
You said Markus had the highest turnover %. He does not.
I was using the following...highest turnovers per game (3.5), per 100 possessionS (6.3) and per 40 minutes (4.6) he does.
If there is a different stat, happy to acknowledge...just not aware of what you might be referencing. That was the turnover % I was referencing.
Quote from: tower912 on December 29, 2019, 01:44:54 PM
To borrow a cliche from last year, the strength of this team is the team. Hopefully, it holds up better than last year.
Maybe just the last 6.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 04:44:46 PM
I was using the following...highest turnovers per game (3.5), per 100 possessionS (6.3) and per 40 minutes (4.6) he does.
If there is a different stat, happy to acknowledge...just not aware of what you might be referencing. That was the turnover % I was referencing.
There is a stat called turnover percentage...and that's why you were wrong.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2019, 04:53:34 PM
There is a stat called turnover percentage...and that's why you were wrong.
fair enough. I was wrong, I'll rephrase to say Howard has the highest turnovers per game, per 100 possessions, per 40 minutes of anyone on the team. Not sure if that is deemed a turnover rate or something else. Not sure how turnover % would be calculated, I suppose for every opportunity one touches the ball...yes?
Quote from: panda on December 29, 2019, 02:01:23 PM
*Second highest turnover percentage on the team.
Can you tell me where you got your stat? Thanks
I found an advanced stats on turnover % and Koby is actually third, not second. Some guy named Symir is actually 2nd. 8-) Ed Morrow is first.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 05:04:21 PM
fair enough. I was wrong, I'll rephrase to say Howard has the highest turnovers per game, per 100 possessions, per 40 minutes of anyone on the team. Not sure if that is deemed a turnover rate or something else. Not sure how turnover % would be calculated, I suppose for every opportunity one touches the ball...yes?
I believe it's number of turnovers per possessions used. It's based on usage. Since Markus has a high usage, the raw turnovers may be higher, but you are less likely to have a turnover in a Markus possession than a player with lower usage.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 04:44:46 PM
I was using the following...highest turnovers per game (3.5), per 100 possessionS (6.3) and per 40 minutes (4.6) he does.
If there is a different stat, happy to acknowledge...just not aware of what you might be referencing. That was the turnover % I was referencing.
Markus has the lowest turnover rate of guards on the team.
Markus 16.9%
Sacar 19.6%
Symir 24.2%
Elliott 24.3%
McEwen 25.1%
The only players with a lower turnover rate on the team than Markus are Bailey & Theo.
Quote from: cheebs09 on December 29, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
I believe it's number of turnovers per possessions used. It's based on usage. Since Markus has a high usage, the raw turnovers may be higher, but you are less likely to have a turnover in a Markus possession than a player with lower usage.
Interesting because according to that site, the highest turnovers per 100 possession is also Markus. I did scroll to the bottom and they had an advanced stats that included turnover %, that has him much lower which I can only guess is ball touches within a possession potentially?
Usage rate is determined by possessions that end with your actions. A made shot, missed shot that is rebounded by the other team, or turning the ball over would all count towards usage, which is the basis of turnover rate.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 29, 2019, 05:30:48 PM
Markus has the lowest turnover rate of guards on the team.
Markus 16.9%
Sacar 19.6%
Symir 24.2%
Elliott 24.3%
McEwen 25.1%
The only players with a lower turnover rate on the team than Markus are Bailey & Theo.
scroll down to the bottom of link below...similar numbers, not exactly the same...but ballparkish...is this what you are referencing or a different source? It has Symir as 2nd worst on team, worst guard.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2020.html
Imagine that, another scoop thread devolved into a crap show.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 05:34:29 PM
scroll down to the bottom of link below...similar numbers, not exactly the same...but ballparkish...is this what you are referencing or a different source? It has Symir as 2nd worst on team, worst guard.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2020.html
From Pomeroy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 29, 2019, 06:03:00 PM
From Pomeroy.
Thanks. It is interesting the two sites are close, but enough differences to show up. The other site has Symir at 25.2% turnover rate and McEwen in the 23's. KenPom something a bit different.
The formula for TO% is: TO/(FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA)
Guards are always going to have higher tpg, to per 40, and to per 100 possessions because of the nature of the position. TO% is the best way to determine if an individual player is turning the ball over too much.
If anyone is curious here are those numbers for our team from most to least TO prone (numbers per KenPom).
Morrow 27.8%
McEwen 25.1%
Elliott 24.3%
Torrence 24.2%
Johnson 21.0%
Anim 19.6%
Cain 18.3%
Howard: 16.9%
John 15.2%
Bailey 11.3%
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 29, 2019, 06:03:00 PM
From Pomeroy.
Fox Sports also has a different version still. Though it could be timing situation :D
https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/marquette-golden-eagles-team-stats?season=2019&category=ADVANCED&sort=3&time=0&pos=0&team=0
Thank you for actual numbers and an actual formula/explanation. Hope you don't get attacked for it.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 06:58:49 PM
The formula for TO% is: TO/(FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA)
Guards are always going to have higher tpg, to per 40, and to per 100 possessions because of the nature of the position. TO% is the best way to determine if an individual player is turning the ball over too much.
If anyone is curious here are those numbers for our team from most to least TO prone (numbers per KenPom).
Morrow 27.8%
McEwen 25.1%
Elliott 24.3%
Torrence 24.2%
Johnson 21.0%
Anim 19.6%
Cain 18.3%
Howard: 16.9%
John 15.2%
Bailey 11.3%
What's interesting is apparently different sites are using different formulas...not updated with yesterday's games, but McEwen didn't play and his percentage is much different on Fox Sports NCAA basketball site than the one you posted. No idea what the changes in the formulas are.
1 Morrow, Ed 28.2 %
2 Torrence, Symir 26.1%
3 Johnson, Jayce C 24.4%
4 Elliott, Greg G 22.7%
4 McEwen, Koby G 22.7%
6 Anim, Sacar G-F 16.5%
7 Cain, Jamal F 15.9%
8 John, Theo F 15.3%
9 Howard, Markus G 14.2%
10 Bailey, Brendan F 9.5%
And Sports Reference.com has it this way
Rk Player TOV%
9 Ed Morrow 26.7
10 Symir Torrence 25
6 Koby McEwen 22.5
7 Greg Elliott 21.9
8 Jayce Johnson 20.8
4 Jamal Cain 16.8
2 Sacar Anim 16.2
1 Markus Howard 14.1
5 Theo John 14
3 Brendan Bailey 9.5
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 06:58:49 PM
The formula for TO% is: TO/(FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA)
Guards are always going to have higher tpg, to per 40, and to per 100 possessions because of the nature of the position. TO% is the best way to determine if an individual player is turning the ball over too much.
If anyone is curious here are those numbers for our team from most to least TO prone (numbers per KenPom).
Morrow 27.8%
McEwen 25.1%
Elliott 24.3%
Torrence 24.2%
Johnson 21.0%
Anim 19.6%
Cain 18.3%
Howard: 16.9%
John 15.2%
Bailey 11.3%
Thanks for this, TAMU. Interesting.
One of the "little things" that encouraged me during yesterday's game was Morrow took a pass on the block. And instead of backing all the way down and likely getting called either for traveling or an offensive foul, he kicked the ball out to an open shooter (Symir or Elliott, I think?) for an easy 3.
Our bigs need to do that more often. A good way to avoid turnovers and just basically help the offense.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 07:03:11 PM
What's interesting is apparently different sites are using different formulas...not updated with yesterday's games, but McEwen didn't play and his percentage is much different on Fox Sports NCAA basketball site than the one you posted. No idea what the changes in the formulas are.
1 Morrow, Ed 28.2 %
2 Torrence, Symir 26.1%
3 Johnson, Jayce C 24.4%
4 Elliott, Greg G 22.7%
4 McEwen, Koby G 22.7%
6 Anim, Sacar G-F 16.5%
7 Cain, Jamal F 15.9%
8 John, Theo F 15.3%
9 Howard, Markus G 14.2%
10 Bailey, Brendan F 9.5%
Just like ESPN always got RPI wrong, most sites get advanced stats wrong. It may be they have the wrong formula or it may be that their data entry interns make mistakes. For the future, KenPom is the only place you need to go to get accurate information about advanced stats.
Quote from: #UnleashJayce on December 28, 2019, 09:44:48 PM
Regards to walkons:
Wojo has had a very short "leash" when it comes to putting in walkons. One that needs to extend.
But to interject with "ectera player" may get hurt.. They may get hurt in practice or a game. UT playing them an extra 2 minutes does not increase injury factor at all.
Fully agree. Actually pissed me off when he sent them out there with 1 minute left. That's embarrassing. An extra 5 minutes of Theo, Ed, Jayce, Jamal, Brendan won't make any difference vs. CAS. Let these guys get some time. After all, they may never get to step on the court again this season.
Quote from: Markusquette on December 29, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Fully agree. Actually pissed me off when he sent them out there with 1 minute left. That's embarrassing. An extra 5 minutes of Theo, Ed, Jayce, Jamal, Brendan won't make any difference vs. CAS. Let these guys get some time. After all, they may never get to step on the court again this season.
It's not about making a difference vs CA. The primary tool for seeding used by the selection committee is NET. NET factors in efficiency stats which means that every possession, even garbage time against a sub 300 cupcake, matters. Our NET rank improved from 50 to 37 yesterday. If the lead had shrunk from 50 to 35 in the last 5 minutes because Wojo put the walk ons in, the jump would have been significantly less.
It seems silly, but at the end of the season, us beating CA by 35 instead of 50 may be the difference in an entire seedline. I'd rather the walk ons never play then have our tournament seed effected.
I think Wojo's approach is the right one. He waits until the other team puts their walk ons in before sending ours in. I wish there was a way for the coaches to communicate and agree to send the walk ons in towards the end if the game is out of hand.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 07:09:11 PM
Just like ESPN always got RPI wrong, most sites get advanced stats wrong. It may be they have the wrong formula or it may be that their data entry interns make mistakes. For the future, KenPom is the only place you need to go to get accurate information about advanced stats.
I like KenPom a lot. I deal with STATS.Inc, SportRadar, Genius Sports fairly routinely (usually once a quarter) as they are all partners of ours...most of the big boys take their stats from sources like that. Ken Pom gets his stats from STATS.Inc. NCAA is partnered with Genius, NFL, NHL, NBA with SportRadar...will have to reach out to STATS.Inc to understand what the differences are and will be happy to report here if interested.
I doubt very much it has anything to do with interns inputting data as I'm hard pressed to know of anyone at this level even at the course doing those things anymore. The data from individual games (TAMU, USC, UCLA, MU, etc) can have errors based on the scorekeeper's inputs, but the data feeds are directly uplinked to the stats companies usually and aggregated from there. Garbage in garbage out at the source. People aren't hand inputting the stats at STATS, SportRadar, etc.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 07:20:34 PM
It's not about making a difference vs CA. The primary tool for seeding used by the selection committee is NET. NET factors in efficiency stats which means that every possession, even garbage time against a sub 300 cupcake, matters. Our NET rank improved from 50 to 37 yesterday. If the lead had shrunk from 50 to 35 in the last 5 minutes because Wojo put the walk ons in, the jump would have been significantly less.
It seems silly, but at the end of the season, us beating CA by 35 instead of 50 may be the difference in an entire seedline. I'd rather the walk ons never play then have our tournament seed effected.
I think Wojo's approach is the right one. He waits until the other team puts their walk ons in before sending ours in. I wish there was a way for the coaches to communicate and agree to send the walk ons in towards the end if the game is out of hand.
Do you feel Wisconsin's 20 point win on the road over at the time Number 27 Tennessee also helped our rating rise yesterday? The effects of that game sure moved the needle on KenPom rankings for both teams TN fell 19 spots and WI rose 16 spots.
Or am I wrong in that it doesn't matter what our opponents do in their games?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 29, 2019, 07:33:55 PM
Do you feel Wisconsin's 20 point win on the road over at the time Number 27 Tennessee also helped our rating rise yesterday? The effects of that game sure moved the needle on KenPom rankings for both teams TN fell 19 spots and WI rose 16 spots.
Or am I wrong in that it doesn't matter what our opponents do in their games?
That absolutely helped us. So did Purdue demolishing Central Michigan.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 04:44:46 PM
I was using the following...highest turnovers per game (3.5), per 100 possessionS (6.3) and per 40 minutes (4.6) he does.
If there is a different stat, happy to acknowledge...just not aware of what you might be referencing. That was the turnover % I was referencing.
You're way off on this. Do betta
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 07:29:15 PM
I like KenPom a lot. I deal with STATS.Inc, SportRadar, Genius Sports fairly routinely (usually once a quarter) as they are all partners of ours...most of the big boys take their stats from sources like that. Ken Pom gets his stats from STATS.Inc. NCAA is partnered with Genius, NFL, NHL, NBA with SportRadar...will have to reach out to STATS.Inc to understand what the differences are and will be happy to report here if interested.
I doubt very much it has anything to do with interns inputting data as I'm hard pressed to know of anyone at this level even at the course doing those things anymore. The data from individual games (TAMU, USC, UCLA, MU, etc) can have errors based on the scorekeeper's inputs, but the data feeds are directly uplinked to the stats companies usually and aggregated from there. Garbage in garbage out at the source. People aren't hand inputting the stats at STATS, SportRadar, etc.
Using sports-reference for your stats is like taking a dump, wiping, and using the dung for your stats. C'mon dude
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 29, 2019, 07:33:55 PM
Do you feel Wisconsin's 20 point win on the road over at the time Number 27 Tennessee also helped our rating rise yesterday? The effects of that game sure moved the needle on KenPom rankings for both teams TN fell 19 spots and WI rose 16 spots.
Or am I wrong in that it doesn't matter what our opponents do in their games?
It certainly helped, and what our opponents do does matter. Buttheir results impact us less than our own and they (UW & Purdue) make up just 1/6th of our opponents (to date) combined.
Consider when our opponents started I believe 8-0 in Friday/Saturday games before we tipped against K-State. Our Pomeroy ranking went from 29 to 26 before the tip because of those results, then our win over KSU jumped us up from 26 to 23. So 8 combined results had the same rank impact as our 8-point win (when we were favored by I believe 2 or 3).
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 29, 2019, 07:45:08 PM
Using sports-reference for your stats is like taking a dump, wiping, and using the dung for your stats. C'mon dude
I used two sources...one was Sports Reference while the other was Fox Sports...I believe Fox is still getting their stats from STATS.Inc (well, technically now STATS Perform as they changed their name)...at one point Fox owned STATS but sold it like 5 years ago. If FOX is still using STATS and KenPom is, that makes for an interesting question regarding the disparity of the results.
It would have been better if you had just stopped after saying you were wrong (which was progress).
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 07:29:15 PM
I like KenPom a lot. I deal with STATS.Inc, SportRadar, Genius Sports fairly routinely (usually once a quarter) as they are all partners of ours...most of the big boys take their stats from sources like that. Ken Pom gets his stats from STATS.Inc. NCAA is partnered with Genius, NFL, NHL, NBA with SportRadar...will have to reach out to STATS.Inc to understand what the differences are and will be happy to report here if interested.
I doubt very much it has anything to do with interns inputting data as I'm hard pressed to know of anyone at this level even at the course doing those things anymore. The data from individual games (TAMU, USC, UCLA, MU, etc) can have errors based on the scorekeeper's inputs, but the data feeds are directly uplinked to the stats companies usually and aggregated from there. Garbage in garbage out at the source. People aren't hand inputting the stats at STATS, SportRadar, etc.
I wasn't serious about the interns.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 29, 2019, 07:33:55 PM
Do you feel Wisconsin's 20 point win on the road over at the time Number 27 Tennessee also helped our rating rise yesterday? The effects of that game sure moved the needle on KenPom rankings for both teams TN fell 19 spots and WI rose 16 spots.
Or am I wrong in that it doesn't matter what our opponents do in their games?
Yes it did help us. As did Purdue smacking CMU as 1090 pointed out. Us shellacking CA helped more.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 08:42:28 PM
I wasn't serious about the interns.
Gotcha. Well, they provide a valuable service, can be very heady at times.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 07:20:34 PM
It's not about making a difference vs CA. The primary tool for seeding used by the selection committee is NET. NET factors in efficiency stats which means that every possession, even garbage time against a sub 300 cupcake, matters. Our NET rank improved from 50 to 37 yesterday. If the lead had shrunk from 50 to 35 in the last 5 minutes because Wojo put the walk ons in, the jump would have been significantly less.
It seems silly, but at the end of the season, us beating CA by 35 instead of 50 may be the difference in an entire seedline. I'd rather the walk ons never play then have our tournament seed effected.
I think Wojo's approach is the right one. He waits until the other team puts their walk ons in before sending ours in. I wish there was a way for the coaches to communicate and agree to send the walk ons in towards the end if the game is out of hand.
Yeah that is pretty silly. Seems to me the seeding should be based on the eye test too and not just numbers but I guess that's too much to keep track of. Sucks to see guys who work just as hard as the scholarship players not get a chance to play.
Let me ask you, how long has seeding used NET? Would Crean and Buzz have been as concerned with it as Wojo during their time here, or is it more recently affecting seeding?
Quote from: Markusquette on December 29, 2019, 09:13:09 PM
Yeah that is pretty silly. Seems to me the seeding should be based on the eye test too and not just numbers but I guess that's too much to keep track of. Sucks to see guys who work just as hard as the scholarship players not get a chance to play.
Let me ask you, how long has seeding used NET? Would Crean and Buzz have been as concerned with it as Wojo during their time here, or is it more recently affecting seeding?
NET started last year to replace RPI. It didn't matter during Crean and Buzz's time here because the RPI didn't take margins into account.
Outside of Frozena's senior season Buzz rarely played walk ons either. On the Elite 8 team, Dylan Flood played a total of four minutes over four games. The year before, he had no walk ons.
This really isn't a big deal.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 29, 2019, 09:29:30 PM
Outside of Frozena's senior season Buzz rarely played walk ons either. On the Elite 8 team, Dylan Flood played a total of four minutes over four games. The year before, he had no walk ons.
This really isn't a big deal.
No kidding. Especially when it's the only game you have between December 20th and your first Big East game on January 1st. If Wojo wants to play his guys for 39 of the 40 minutes in a blowout with 3 days between games so be it. If he wants to run the score up to help his NET/KenPom/other rating systems so be it. If he wants to get looks at double big lineups or zone defenses so be it.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 29, 2019, 09:36:13 PM
No kidding. Especially when it's the only game you have between December 20th and your first Big East game on January 1st. If Wojo wants to play his guys for 39 of the 40 minutes in a blowout with 3 days between games so be it. If he wants to run the score up to help his NET/KenPom/other rating systems so be it. If he wants to get looks at double big lineups or zone defenses so be it.
Agree completely
Quote from: Markusquette on December 29, 2019, 09:13:09 PM
Yeah that is pretty silly. Seems to me the seeding should be based on the eye test too and not just numbers but I guess that's too much to keep track of. Sucks to see guys who work just as hard as the scholarship players not get a chance to play.
Let me ask you, how long has seeding used NET? Would Crean and Buzz have been as concerned with it as Wojo during their time here, or is it more recently affecting seeding?
I think Buzz has called timeouts late in a blowout to draw up a play to maximize the NET ranking.
Glad to see that not knowing the first thing about advanced stats doesn't stop a certain someone from leading the Scoop league in postings regarding them. Guy needs a minimum of 28 days in Scoop rehab.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2019, 10:46:50 PM
Glad to see that not knowing the first thing about advanced stats doesn't stop a certain someone from leading the Scoop league in postings regarding them. Guy needs a minimum of 28 days in Scoop rehab.
It is interesting that three sites have different numbers for the same stat, supposedly two of them receive from same source but have different results....I wish they would get their act together.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on December 29, 2019, 06:58:49 PM
The formula for TO% is: TO/(FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA)
Guards are always going to have higher tpg, to per 40, and to per 100 possessions because of the nature of the position. TO% is the best way to determine if an individual player is turning the ball over too much.
If anyone is curious here are those numbers for our team from most to least TO prone (numbers per KenPom).
That is not the formula for individual turnover rates per KenPom / Dean Oliver. It's based on individual possessions used, a far more complex calculation.
Quote from: Cheeks on December 29, 2019, 10:57:45 PM
It is interesting that three sites have different numbers for the same stat, supposedly two of them receive from same source but have different results....I wish they would get their act together.
They are not the same stat. They may be called the same or similar, but by design, the stat is very different. You must understand what you're looking at.
Some of the 'big name' sites use an individual TO% that is calculated using barbaric, disgusting means.
Quote from: Markusquette on December 29, 2019, 09:13:09 PM
Let me ask you, how long has seeding used NET? Would Crean and Buzz have been as concerned with it as Wojo during their time here, or is it more recently affecting seeding?
As Brew said, last year was the first year that NET was used. RPI was the old standard and it didn't use efficiency stats or margins of victory, all the really mattered was who you played and whether or not you won. If we were still using RPI, yesterday's game would have hurt our resume because of how abysmal of record Central Arkansas has it wouldn't have mattered if we beat them by 1 or beat them by 54. NET is an improvement because a team that wins by 54 should get more credit than a team that wins by 1. But the unfortunate side effect is that some coaches feel they have to run up the score and can't play walk ons.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2019, 10:46:50 PM
Glad to see that not knowing the first thing about advanced stats doesn't stop a certain someone from leading the Scoop league in postings regarding them. Guy needs a minimum of 28 days in Scoop rehab.
He'll just be like herpes and flare up again.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 29, 2019, 11:54:00 PM
They are not the same stat. They may be called the same or similar, but by design, the stat is very different. You must understand what you're looking at.
Some of the 'big name' sites use an individual TO% that is calculated using barbaric, disgusting means.
::)
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 29, 2019, 11:54:00 PM
They are not the same stat. They may be called the same or similar, but by design, the stat is very different. You must understand what you're looking at.
Some of the 'big name' sites use an individual TO% that is calculated using barbaric, disgusting means.
Made me laugh JB. Yes, I wish they would label it more properly so that we aren't polluted by the barbaric, disgusting means being used. ;)
red skies in morning sailor take warning