MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2019, 11:27:48 AM
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... the head guy buys a sports team.
(through November the S&P 500 was up 27%)
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WSJ News Exclusive | Distressed-Asset Hedge Funds Run Into Trouble
https://www.wsj.com/articles/distressed-asset-hedge-funds-run-into-trouble-11577107801?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1
Hedge-fund firms York Capital Management and Southpaw Asset Management are barring clients from getting back all of the money they have requested for year-end, a sign of the pressure that investors in distressed assets are facing.
York, founded by Milwaukee Bucks co-owner Jamie Dinan, told clients in a letter Thursday it was suspending redemptions from its nearly $2 billion Credit Opportunities fund for the year-end period and that it planned to start unwinding the fund.
The fund is run by co-chief investment officer William Vrattos and was down 8% for the year through November, said people familiar with the matter.
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It was a real shame to watch the Home Depot go belly up after Arthur Blank bought the Falcons.
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It was a real shame to watch the Home Depot go belly up after Arthur Blank bought the Falcons.
And how Ares Management imploded after Tony Ressler bought the Hawks...
Virtu Financial didn't continue to grow like gangbusters and go public after Vincent Viola bought the Florida Panthers, it surely fell off a cliff.
Dinon isn't even a majority owner of the Bucks. Lasry's Avenue Capital is still thriving and recently opened another half a billion fund and last I checked, Edens and Fortress aren't falling apart.
Typical clickbait schlock cause a fund manager who deals in credit, not equities like the S&P, is having drawdowns.
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how can anything be down any % this year?
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how can anything be down any % this year?
Because it’s a hedge fund specializing in distressed assets.
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We're selling our Apple stock, right?
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how can anything be down any % this year?
Wages certainly aren't up any significant amount.
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It was a real shame to watch the Home Depot go belly up after Arthur Blank bought the Falcons.
Blank stepped down from the board of Home Depot in 2001 and bought the Falcons the next year (2002). He has not been involved in running HD for 19 years.
Nice try
And how Ares Management imploded after Tony Ressler bought the Hawks...
Virtu Financial didn't continue to grow like gangbusters and go public after Vincent Viola bought the Florida Panthers, it surely fell off a cliff.
Dinon isn't even a majority owner of the Bucks. Lasry's Avenue Capital is still thriving and recently opened another half a billion fund and last I checked, Edens and Fortress aren't falling apart.
Typical clickbait schlock cause a fund manager who deals in credit, not equities like the S&P, is having drawdowns.
I give you Ares, has done well since Ressler bought the Hawks. Score one for you.
Viola bought the Panthers in October 2015. Since Vitru is up 5% while the S&P is up 69% over the same period. POS since he got involved in Hockey.
Lasry (bought the Bucks in 2014) had to close his hedge fund a year later because it was awful
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/10/avenue-capital-closing-its-original-hedge-fund.html
It has largely been a crap show since. (Lasry is rumoured to be the inspiration of KGB in Rounders. He travels the world looking for high stakes poker games).
Fortress sucked badly from 2014 until it was acquited by Softbank, the same company that is reeling from Wework. Softbank ownership is now toxic.
In other words you guys gave me one good example and three outright disasters to say I was wrong. You wound up making my case better than me ... good job!
And I'll bring up Ballmer. The best thing that ever happened to Microsoft in the last two decades was Ballmer buying Clippers and leaving Microsoft. Getting him out of there made them relevant again.
And what I said has been known for decades. Here is a 1997 article saying companies go south when the owner buys a sports team.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB852585653426181000
It is actually simple, buying a sports team means you lost interest in your business. Its performance reflects that reality. So, not hard to understand.
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The problem is that distressed asset hedge funds are doing poorly overall. Really doubt it has anything to do with the Bucks owner being distracted. Hey but keep doing you Heisey.
I mean if a 22 year old article says it, it most certainly holds true!
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The problem is that distressed asset hedge funds are doing poorly overall. Really doubt it has anything to do with the Bucks owner being distracted. Hey but keep doing you Heisey.
I mean if a 22 year old article says it, it most certainly holds true!
It was true 22 years ago and it has not changed.
But hey, keep bending yourself into a pretzel trying to say Lasry is still a good investor. He was good, he sucks now.
(The bulk of his net worth is now the Bucks and he is one of those Democrat donor billionaires that Warren slammed last week ... bet he has a wine cave too.)
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Lasry (bought the Bucks in 2014) had to close his hedge fund a year later because it was awful
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/10/avenue-capital-closing-its-original-hedge-fund.html
It has largely been a crap show since. (Lasry is rumoured to be the inspiration of KGB in Rounders. He travels the world looking for high stakes poker games).
Slick edit to take out the fact that you had the wrong company all together. And individual funds close all the damn time. Avenue Capital as a collection of hedge funds has $15B+ AUM and is one of the largest hedge funds in the world. Not exactly withering on the vine.
Fortress sucked badly from 2014 until it was acquited by Softbank, the same company that is reeling from Wework. Softbank ownership is now toxic.
Fortress is not a one man show. Edens heads up the PE branch which has been very successful. Including a monster return on Springleaf Financial headed up by him during and after his ownership began. Not to mention wise and fruitful investments in eSports.
Your initial article link was misguided and lacking in proper context for your point and now you've used that to start layering on different arguments. Very Cheeks of you.
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Next on this list of disasters ... David Tepper, his hedge fund Apposola has also been awful since he spent more time with the Carolina Panthers.
And Steve Ross (Dolphins), Woody Johnson (Jets) and John Henry (Red Soxs) have all seen their primary businesses tank since they got into sports. They are still billionaires because their net worth is now their teams.
Again, my point is when a billionaire buys a team, his primary business is toast. He lost interest in it and flounders.
What they should do is what Cuban, Tom Ricketts, and Blank did ... step down from their business dealings and realize they are now in a new business, running their sports team, and leave everything else in the past. Too hard for these big egos.
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Slick edit to take out the fact that you had the wrong company all together. And individual funds close all the damn time. Avenue Capital as a collection of hedge funds has $15B+ AUM and is one of the largest hedge funds in the world. Not exactly withering on the vine.
Fortress is not a one man show. Edens heads up the PE branch which has been very successful. Including a monster return on Springleaf Financial headed up by him during and after his ownership began. Not to mention wise and fruitful investments in eSports.
Your initial article link was misguided and lacking in proper context for your point and now you've used that to start layering on different arguments. Very Cheeks of you.
These have all been poorly run investment businesses. Eden's esports ventures are part of his pivot to his new career, running sports team.
And, for the third time, their legacy businesses are what flounders. I did not say, nor did I imply that everything they do flounders. That is you standing on your head to try and argue that I'm wrong.
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It was true 22 years ago and it has not changed.
But hey, keep bending yourself into a pretzel trying to say Lasry is still a good investor. He was good, he sucks now.
(The bulk of his net worth is now the Bucks and he is one of those Democrat donor billionaires that Warren slammed last week ... bet he has a wine cave too.)
I’m not bending anything. Per usual you are mistaking correlation for causation. And you’ve shown your bias in the meantime.
Yet another topic in which not to take you seriously.
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I’m not bending anything. Per usual you are mistaking correlation for causation. And you’ve shown your bias in the meantime.
Yet another topic in which not to take you seriously.
Your apology for being wrong has been accepted.
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Jesus, in before the lock.
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Sigh ...
Flex-N-Gate stock is up 93 percent since Shahid Khan bought the Jacksonville Jaguars.
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Beyond thrilled to have Wes Edens and Marc Lasry in Milwaukee as the owners of the Bucks
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Allegis Group, owned by Baltimore Ravens owner Steve Biscotti, has seen its revenues grow 113 percent over the past decade.
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It’s like clockwork.
Heisey produces some theory he thinks is profound...only to be shot down in 12 hours.
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Alibaba Group stock is up 24 percent since Joseph Tsai bought the Nets.
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Platinum Equities revenues are up 20 percent since Tom Gores bought the Pistons.
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Shifting goalposts and ever more far-fetched defenses getting ramped up.
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Ubiquiti Inc stock is up 1,335 percent since Robert Pera bought the Grizzlies.
And with that, I bid Heisey adieu (and accept his apology for being wrong).
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Jesus, in before the lock.
Who is more annoying on Scoop? Chico or Heisy. 2 trolls from the same mother?
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And I'll bring up Ballmer. The best thing that ever happened to Microsoft in the last two decades was Ballmer buying Clippers and leaving Microsoft. Getting him out of there made them relevant again.
Ballmer did not leave Microsoft to buy the Clippers.
He was nudged out the door in Feb 2014, after years of lackluster performance. The lackluster performance had nothing to do with him buying the Clippers, who weren't even on the market until after Donald Sterling made his fateful racist remarks in April 2014 and was forced to sell.
But yes, it did end up being fortuitous for Microsoft, as his successor, Satya Nadella, is a genius who realized that the cloud was the future.
It might end up being fortuitious for the Clippers, too. They were perennial underachievers -- and often laughingstocks -- under Sterling. They are legit NBA title contenders this season, as Ballmer brought in both Leonard and George.
Oh ...
And AAPL is almost $200 higher now than it was when you were telling us to run from it in the $90s.
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Crean sucks
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Wages certainly aren't up any significant amount.
so how much is a significant enough amount for you? when was the last time they even went up a "significant amount"? you'd be complaining if they were hanging you with a new rope
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Oh, you people with your facts and data and information! Heisy is not interested! He has a political axe to grind so he'd like you to focus on that please.
He wants you to understand that a Democratic hedge fund manager is terrible, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, so please just focus on that part of the presentation and don't dig too much into the actual facts.
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so how much is a significant enough amount for you? when was the last time they even went up a "significant amount"? you'd be complaining if they were hanging you with a new rope
Wages, when adjusted for inflation, by some measures finally reached pre-2008 levels earlier this year. It's been a very slow recovery.
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So is this why Mark A won't pry the wallet open to find the Crew an arm?
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Wages, when adjusted for inflation, by some measures finally reached pre-2008 levels earlier this year. It's been a very slow recovery.
Inflation has been low, wage growth has to be put in perspective. Tech has also replaced some jobs, etc.
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Inflation has been low, wage growth has to be put in perspective. Tech has also replaced some jobs, etc.
Inflation has been low. But over the past ten years, the CPI has gone up 20%. If wages have largely just risen to 2008 levels, that means everything is relatively more expensive.
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Inflation has been low. But over the past ten years, the CPI has gone up 20%. If wages have largely just risen to 2008 levels, that means everything is relatively more expensive.
So raising the minimum wage wasn’t good enough? Might as well just pay everyone $50/ hour...that ought to do it, no what the...might as well make it $100...ya wanna know when everything was stagnant and stayed stagnant at best was thru 2016. Any movement up now, as it has, is going to be gradual, but it’s the first appreciable move up in a while
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Oh, you people with your facts and data and information! Heisy is not interested! He has a political axe to grind so he'd like you to focus on that please.
He wants you to understand that a Democratic hedge fund manager is terrible, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, so please just focus on that part of the presentation and don't dig too much into the actual facts.
So much billionaire love here. Must be a republican convention.
You are all invited to my wine cave.
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So raising the minimum wage wasn’t good enough? Might as well just pay everyone $50/ hour...that ought to do it, no what the...might as well make it $100...ya wanna know when everything was stagnant and stayed stagnant at best was thru 2016. Any movement up now, as it has, is going to be gradual, but it’s the first appreciable move up in a while
??? The Federal minimum wage hasn't changed since 2009. WTF are you talking about?
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So raising the minimum wage wasn’t good enough? Might as well just pay everyone $50/ hour...that ought to do it, no what the...might as well make it $100...ya wanna know when everything was stagnant and stayed stagnant at best was thru 2016. Any movement up now, as it has, is going to be gradual, but it’s the first appreciable move up in a while
I don’t think I have mentioned anything about minimum wage. I have simply mentioned that wages haven’t kept up with inflation.
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So much billionaire love here. Must be a republican convention.
You are all invited to my wine cave.
Probably should have just stayed away and taken the L.
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??? The Federal minimum wage hasn't changed since 2009. WTF are you talking about?
you view everything thru the federal gov't? if they didn't do it, it didn't happen?? scary! thank God the feds haven't touched it!
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Allegis Group, owned by Baltimore Ravens owner Steve Biscotti, has seen its revenues grow 113 percent over the past decade.
Wasn’t Allegis the name for United Airlines’ holding company in the 1980s, when United owned the airline, Westin Hotels and Hertz? I think so.
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Allegis Group is a privately held staffing firm. Mostly goes under the name Aerotek.
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I don’t think I have mentioned anything about minimum wage. I have simply mentioned that wages haven’t kept up with inflation.
*Some* wages haven't kept up. While others have soared. See workers vs execs
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you view everything thru the federal gov't? if they didn't do it, it didn't happen?? scary! thank God the feds haven't touched it!
Fail
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you view everything thru the federal gov't? if they didn't do it, it didn't happen?? scary! thank God the feds haven't touched it!
It should have been indexed to cost of living from day one.
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Inflation has been low. But over the past ten years, the CPI has gone up 20%. If wages have largely just risen to 2008 levels, that means everything is relatively more expensive.
Brother Fluffy, you obviously weren't alive in the 1960s and 1970s. We'd of killed for this kind of inflation back then.
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Brother Fluffy, you obviously weren't alive in the 1960s and 1970s. We'd of killed for this kind of inflation back then.
I was alive and understand completely what you are talking about. But that's not really relevant to my point at all.
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??? The Federal minimum wage hasn't changed since 2009. WTF are you talking about?
I see more Seattle restaurants announced closure in WSJ article this past week....tough economic times up there?
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you view everything thru the federal gov't? if they didn't do it, it didn't happen?? scary! thank God the feds haven't touched it!
Article today from Axios, wages up highest in 10 years
https://www.axios.com/wage-increases-workers-2019-high-low-skill-5208fb9f-20c2-486a-b572-fc20737546f3.html
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Article today from Axios, wages up highest in 10 years
https://www.axios.com/wage-increases-workers-2019-high-low-skill-5208fb9f-20c2-486a-b572-fc20737546f3.html
Not what the article says.
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I see more Seattle restaurants announced closure in WSJ article this past week....tough economic times up there?
Restaurants sometimes close? Stunning!
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It should have been indexed to cost of living from day one.
So should tax rates based on where you live....but that's another story.
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Brother Fluffy, you obviously weren't alive in the 1960s and 1970s. We'd of killed for this kind of inflation back then.
Misery Index...what a joy that was to live through
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Not what the article says.
I apologize. Let me restate, rising at fastest rate in 10 years. What I said, was also true, just not what the article said. Wages are at their highest in real terms since 1964....and this is a little dated from June.
https://www.statista.com/chart/17679/real-wages-in-the-united-states/
Merry Christmas to all
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I apologize. Let me restate, rising at fastest rate in 10 years. What I said, was also true, just not what the article said. Wages are at their highest in real terms since 1964....and this is a little dated from June.
https://www.statista.com/chart/17679/real-wages-in-the-united-states/
Merry Christmas to all
Now do executive pay.
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Now do executive pay.
The people that make the hardest decisions, the ones that have to assume the most risk and also get the most reward, the ones where decisions can lead to the company stagnated or even going out of business, or continuing to stay relevant....yes, those are up, too. Everyone is up....I remember when that used to be a good thing...how about you...do you remember those days? Been so long, maybe you don't.
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The people that make the hardest decisions, the ones that have to assume the most risk and also get the most reward, the ones where decisions can lead to the company stagnated or even going out of business, or continuing to stay relevant....yes, those are up, too. Everyone is up....I remember when that used to be a good thing...how about you...do you remember those days? Been so long, maybe you don't.
The most risk? Plenty of company pee-ons get axed every day, what are execs risking beyond their employment?
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The most risk? Plenty of company pee-ons get axed every day, what are execs risking beyond their employment?
Yes, employment being another just like every other person. Inability to get another equal level job ever again. When you lead many people, one of your peeps does something that comes back on you....that's usually not the case at lower levels. In other words, the higher up you go, the more responsibility one has and the more at risk one is to the actions of 10's, 100's, 1000's of employees and their whims....some of which you can control with programs, education, training, etc...some of which are never good enough no matter what you do...risk.
Then there is things like compliance where upper management is often asked to make decisions with all kinds of financial, legal, and other risks....lots of lawyers, financial folks and others giving their input on what is and isn't worth the risk....relying on their expertise to be right and often having to decide amongst competing legal or financial opinions.
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The people that make the hardest decisions, the ones that have to assume the most risk and also get the most reward, the ones where decisions can lead to the company stagnated or even going out of business, or continuing to stay relevant....yes, those are up, too. Everyone is up....I remember when that used to be a good thing...how about you...do you remember those days? Been so long, maybe you don't.
Cool story. Was any of this not true in 1978?
Why won't you just give us the numbers?
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(https://consumerist.com/consumermediallc.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/changeinceopaygraph.jpg)
(https://i1.wp.com/cms.marketplace.org/sites/default/files/Growth_of_CEO_compensation%2C_worker_compensation_and_stock_prices_CEO_pay_worker_pay_S%26P_500_Dow_Jones_chartbuilder%20%281%29_0.png?resize=640%2C360&ssl=1)
(https://jobmarketmonitor.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/capture-d_c3a9cran-2015-07-02-c3a0-09-22-05.png?w=633&h=584)
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CEO...there is typically one per company...talk about trying to over target this. What’s next, top Hollywood actors make too much, top athletes?
Also your stats only fortune 500 companies, but there are many X CEOS in this country. Why are all labor thrown into these analysis, but only cherry picking Fortune 500 CEOs? Hmm.
Avg CEO pay including all CEOs in this country is about $160K a year.
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Chief_Executive_Officer_(CEO)/Salary
There are nearly 200,000 CEOs in the USA and the stats you pull from make up the salaries of only .002 of the entire population of CEOs....think that might skew things just a touch?
The avg California CEO makes $230K...holy cows. For a family of four in parts of this state, that isn’t much....it sure as hell isn’t rich. https://www.businessinsider.com/states-with-the-most-ceos-2019-5
Florida avg CEO pay is $187K. Etc etc. lots of cherry picking going with these CEO pay stats listed before this post.
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As long as student athletes can’t earn off their likeness, let the CEO’s make all they can IMO
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As long as student athletes can’t earn off their likeness, let the CEO’s make all they can IMO
Student athlete isn’t an employee...courts have ruled. CEO is an employee.
Big difference.
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(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FT_18.07.26_hourlyWage_adjusted.png)
(https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/minwage.png)
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/022615/can-family-survive-us-minimum-wage.asp
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(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FT_18.07.26_hourlyWage_adjusted.png)
(https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/minwage.png)
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/022615/can-family-survive-us-minimum-wage.asp
Min wages are not supposed to be wages to survive a family on. Why is this insane argument being made? My wife makes barely above min wage, because it is a supplemental income...if she had to go support the family she would quit the min wage job and find one that paid more (required more hours, more responsibility, etc)...that’s the tradeoff.
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Student athlete isn’t an employee...courts have ruled. CEO is an employee.
Big difference.
That’s why I don’t question any court rulings, nor should you. Once ruled, it is set in stone.
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That’s why I don’t question any court rulings, nor should you. Once ruled, it is set in stone.
Incorrect, but until someone comes along with a compelling case that changes the precedent, this is where we are now and ruled on in several federal circuits.
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Min wages are not supposed to be wages to survive a family on.
#fakenews
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#fakenews
You seem to confuse FDR’s “living wage” comments with a family wage...which is what I stated. Read your history...living wage is not a family wage.
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That’s why I don’t question any court rulings, nor should you. Once ruled, it is set in stone.
ANY COURT RULINGS? Try arguing that with people who have been wrongly convicted and sentenced to the death penalty. DNA evidence is changing many court rulings today. I’m sure you meant something else though, but I’d like to hear it
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ANY COURT RULINGS? Try arguing that with people who have been wrongly convicted and sentenced to the death penalty. DNA evidence is changing many court rulings today. I’m sure you meant something else though, but I’d like to hear it
Nope, once the court rules on something, it’s clearly over
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You seem to confuse FDR’s “living wage” comments with a family wage...which is what I stated. Read your history...living wage is not a family wage.
Sure. At a time when married women with children made up a tiny faction of the workforce - and when a large majority of adult women were married with kids - FDR differentiated between "living" and "family" wage.
Never mind what FDR actually said, though.
You're clearly a student of history.
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“Family wage. A family wage is a wage that is sufficient to raise a family. This contrasts with a living wage, which is generally taken to mean a wage sufficient for a single individual to live on, but not necessarily sufficient to also support a family.”
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“Family wage. A family wage is a wage that is sufficient to raise a family. This contrasts with a living wage, which is generally taken to mean a wage sufficient for a single individual to live on, but not necessarily sufficient to also support a family.”
I have a sneaking suspicion this wasn't said by FDR or anyone in the 1930s
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I have a sneaking suspicion this wasn't said by FDR or anyone in the 1930s
Quick Google search says it's from Wikipedia. Without a reference attached.
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I have a sneaking suspicion this wasn't said by FDR or anyone in the 1930s
It wasn’t a quote by FDR, but FDR did talk about Min wage as a living wage. Which is why I specifically said Family wage, huge difference. Again, the min wage was never meant to support a FAMILY, which is what I said.
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It wasn’t a quote by FDR, but FDR did talk about Min wage as a living wage. Which is why I specifically said Family wage, huge difference. Again, the min wage was never meant to support a FAMILY, which is what I said.
Sure, when FDR spoke of a living wage and purchasing power, he clearly was referring to the 2019 Wikipedia definition, and not what it would have meant when he said it.
Context no matta.
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Sure, when FDR spoke of a living wage and purchasing power, he clearly was referring to the 2019 Wikipedia definition, and not what it would have meant when he said it.
Context no matta.
Times change....what hasn't is min wage was never meant to support a family...ever. Not then, not now. It would be economic suicide.
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Times change....what hasn't is min wage was never meant to support a family...ever. Not then, not now. It would be economic suicide.
You're wrong and I'm done arguing with you.
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You're wrong and I'm done arguing with you.
10,000 economists vs 10,000 economists.....ball taken home.