MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on November 30, 2019, 08:59:23 AM
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I started to include this in my post in the Markus/GOAT discussion, but realized it should be a thread of its own.
I think there have been similar threads in the past, but that's OK. We don't mind recycling topics here, and those were before Markus became our all-time leading scorer.
It's not an easy exercise.
Who among us even knows how great pre-Al guys like Kojis and Wolf were? How does one even compare players who were so very different -- Jerome Whitehead and Steve Novak, for instance? Eras have changed so much, especially since the 3-point line and shot-clock came into play. Plus, we have to compare guys who were only around for 2 years to those who played for 4. (Or, in one case, 6!)
A lot of Scoopers were still years away from being born when their faves were playing. It might be unrealistic to think that a 30-year-old would consider Bob Lackey or George Thompson to be on an all-time MU hoops list ahead of a guy who will have outscored them by a zillion points, a guy they have seen do things that no other player in Big East history has done.
I was a kid living in Connecticut when Al's great teams were playing, so I saw some Warriors on TV during the NCAAs and I obviously have read about them and know who they are. The two best Warriors during my time at Marquette were Worthen (my first two years) and Rivers (my last two years). And like most ardent MU fans, I have followed my alma mater closely since I graduated. Thankfully, that has gotten very easy to do the last decade or so.
Rivers and I are friendly (not friends), and his shot against ND was the No. 1 Marquette moment that I personally witnessed ... but he's still not one of my top 10 Warriors. That's how challenging this kind of thing can be.
My Marquette Top 10 (in alphabetical order):
Jimmy Butler
Jim Chones
Jae Crowder
Bo Ellis
Markus Howard
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Earl Tatum
Dwyane Wade
I know many will disagree, and that's cool. That's what fan sites are for. Hopefully we'll all keep the discussion civil.
My biggest omission probably will be seen as George Thompson. Well, I never saw him play one second of basketball, not even a 2-minute highlight reel. I'm sure he was great, but he's a black-and-white photo to me. So that's personal bias ... as will be the case for everybody's top 10. Gun at my head, if I had to replace one of the 10 with him, probably Tatum or Butler.
Lackey? I know he's another fave of Al-era Scoopers. But he averaged 14.1 pts, 8.5 rebs over two seasons and lost twice in the second round despite being surrounded by outstanding players. So while I'm sure he was great (I was 10-11 years old when he was at MU), I never remember seeing him play and his stats weren't "special," so he's not in my top 10.
More recent guys I hate leaving off: Lazar, Jerel, Diener, Wes, Dom, Novak, Smith.
Let's have fun with this. And let's try to remember that nobody's a "moron" or an "idiot" just because he or she has a different top 10. Maybe for other reasons, but not that - ha!
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82
I will try and get my top ten put together this weekend. Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation. In addition, because a large number of players comes from the Al era it is not Al bias, it is a fact that highest percent of coveted recruits played at MU during that time. Furthermore, about 8-10 had extremely well rounded college careers, which included winning at high level.
I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.
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Mike, I agree with you...there is no way to get this list “right”.
You and I saw two players that far outperformed all other Warriors with a particular skill. Worthen with handling the ball was amazing...but not a top 10 all time. Artie Green...wow, dude had wings. Best leaper ever, but not a top 10 all time.
So, to Goose’s point, is Markus the all time pure shooter, but not all time top 10????
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I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.
Scoop:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LittleDefensiveChevrotain-size_restricted.gif)
Goose:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/C1tbM3HK6s3F6/giphy.gif)
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Scoop:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/hC8oFvx4gJQKQ/giphy.gif)
Goose:
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-03-2015/iY5sxZ.gif)
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I think your list is very close 82. We're splitting hairs but Brute Force simply has to be there replacing one of the modern guys.
And I don't necessarily think the 50+ crowd is biased. What the youngins' simply can't appreciate is that we were one of 6 or 8 national 'blue bloods' back in the day and our roster reflected it. Guys like George, and especially Dean, were among the most recruited guys in America. Wooden wanted Meminger badly. It was just different then pre-ESPN.
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My Marquette Top 10 (in alphabetical order):
Jimmy Butler
Jim Chones
Jae Crowder
Bo Ellis
Markus Howard
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Earl Tatum
Dwyane Wade
Christ are you a moron.
This list is pretty close for me. I wouldnt include Butler, or Crowder. Howard would be borderline for me. George Thompson deserves to be on the list.
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82
I will try and get my top ten put together this weekend. Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation. In addition, because a large number of players comes from the Al era it is not Al bias, it is a fact that highest percent of coveted recruits played at MU during that time. Furthermore, about 8-10 had extremely well rounded college careers, which included winning at high level.
I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.
Good points, Goose. I thought about that as I wrote it. I mean, I think Babe Ruth is the greatest ballplayer of all time, and he died 12 years before I was born. But I know a heck of a lot more about Babe than I do George Thompson or Bob Lackey.
I don't think guys who play before one's time should be dismissed from the conversation or excluded. It's just one of many factors that might go into a decision.
I didn't mean "bias" as a negative word. We all have them, myself included, and not just about Marquette's top-10 players. I agree with everything you say about Al's best players -- I'm pretty sure all of them would have excelled in this or any era, too.
Looking forward to seeing your list.
I think your list is very close 82. We're splitting hairs but Brute Force simply has to be there replacing one of the modern guys.
And I don't necessarily think the 50+ crowd is biased. What the youngins' simply can't appreciate is that we were one of 6 or 8 national 'blue bloods' back in the day and our roster reflected it. Guys like George, and especially Dean, were among the most recruited guys in America. Wooden wanted Meminger badly. It was just different then pre-ESPN.
Again, I didn't mean "bias" in a bad way, nor was I trying to suggest that only they are biased. Every human is biased about a number of things. If I went to MU when Wade was there, you would never, ever, ever convince me that any player, not even Al's best, were better than he was.
Forte ... I admit I never even considered him. Thanks for bringing him up.
This list is pretty close for me. I wouldnt include Butler, or Crowder. Howard would be borderline for me. George Thompson deserves to be on the list.
Reasonable take IMHO.
Looking forward to seeing some more lists.
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Jim Chones
Jae Crowder
Bo Ellis
Lazar Hayward
Markus Howard
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
George Thompson
Dwyane Wade (#1)
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To defend my Lazar pick:
3rd in career points
5th in career rebounds
10th in career steals
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Side note: Jim Chones should have his number retired.
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To defend my Lazar pick:
3rd in career points
5th in career rebounds
10th in career steals
More games played
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More games played
True. More games played in a MU uniform than anyone else.
Still give him the nod for both scoring and rebounds.
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Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation.
This is tough for me. Do I put guys like Chones and Lee on the list who obviously were given the highest accolades and by any reasonable measure should be included when I didn't see them? Isn't that basically the same as just looking at stats, which is what many use to dismiss players like Howard?
I firmly believe the eye test alone is flawed, just as stats alone without context are flawed. I'm not sure to how to rank someone I never regularly saw, especially when the advanced numbers for the era don't exist.
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MU82...good comments, No perfect list, game has changed so much. Good topic. Thank you
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82
As a rule, I think you are in the middle on these debates and value your opinion. Serious question, if Howard played at UW or another BE school, do you think most on here who be throwing out the same praise? My guess, there would be a lot of praise on scoring and ripping remainder of his game.
Truthfully, that is a big part of how I evaluate guys. If they played on a rival how we grade their game. My comments on Howard being one trick pony would be the same if he played on another team.
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To defend my Lazar pick:
3rd in career points
5th in career rebounds
10th in career steals
I like your list, even though it's somewhat different from mine. No need to defend Lazar -- a hell of a college player who impressed at least one NBA GM enough to draft him in the first round. I don't know as a player should get "punished" or "downgraded" for playing in as many games as he did. One could argue that's a major positive -- never hurt, always there, always ready to give his all.
Lazar also played much of his career out of position, never complained (that I know of); instead used it to his advantage.
Mike, I agree with you...there is no way to get this list “right”.
You and I saw two players that far outperformed all other Warriors with a particular skill. Worthen with handling the ball was amazing...but not a top 10 all time. Artie Green...wow, dude had wings. Best leaper ever, but not a top 10 all time.
So, to Goose’s point, is Markus the all time pure shooter, but not all time top 10????
Thanks, chili. I don't know as there's any need (for most of us at least) to get it "right." It's a fun conversation.
Good point about being the best, or among the best, at certain skills. However, I do think there's quite a bit of difference between being one of the fine ballhandler/passers for 2 years (Worthen), one of the great leapers but a mediocre player (Artie), and the all-time leading scorer by a wide margin. That latter skill is a pretty important skill IMHO.
This is tough for me. Do I put guys like Chones and Lee on the list who obviously were given the highest accolades and by any reasonable measure should be included when I didn't see them? Isn't that basically the same as just looking at stats, which is what many use to dismiss players like Howard?
I firmly believe the eye test alone is flawed, just as stats alone without context are flawed. I'm not sure to how to rank someone I never regularly saw, especially when the advanced numbers for the era don't exist.
I agree with you about "the eye test alone," but I also don't think the eye test should be ignored. For example, in addition to putting up excellent numbers and helping a team reach the Final Four, Mo Lucas was scary good -- a physically imposing, dominating freak of nature.
Agree with your general point, too. Will any of us put Kojis on his/her list? He averaged 19 pts, 15 rebs and went on to have a 12-year NBA career that included 2 All-Star appearances. But he practically played in the peach-basket era (exaggeration intented).
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Christ are you a moron.
This list is pretty close for me. I wouldnt include Butler, or Crowder. Howard would be borderline for me. George Thompson deserves to be on the list.
I’d include Gardner over Butler or Crowder, who were solid over their years. Davante took over games in ways those guys didn’t, and played 4 years. I think Butler, Crowder, Hayward, McNeal, Matthews, James, and DJO all siphon votes from each other as all played with other outstanding players. I’d probably have Travis Diener on the list ahead of that group as well, maybe Novak. And Wardle was incredible without much other firepower on those teams.
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82
As a rule, I think you are in the middle on these debates and value your opinion. Serious question, if Howard played at UW or another BE school, do you think most on here who be throwing out the same praise? My guess, there would be a lot of praise on scoring and ripping remainder of his game.
Truthfully, that is a big part of how I evaluate guys. If they played on a rival how we grade their game. My comments on Howard being one trick pony would be the same if he played on another team.
Legit question, Goose, and I generally am a big try-stepping-in-someone-else's-shoes kind of guy.
Not easy for me to answer this because (thankfully) he isn't on another team, but to be honest it probably would depend on what I've seen him do to our team.
Do you think USC and K-State and Buffalo fans are saying, "Aw, he's a one-trick pony"? Or do you think they are saying, "He's one of the most awesome offensive players I've ever seen"? On the other end of the spectrum, I wouldn't be surprised if Murray State fans think he is the most overrated player in recent history. "People were saying it was gonna be Ja against that guy? Please."
I have "hated" (in a fan sense) guys like Powell, Ponds, McDermott, Tripucka, Garcia, Paxson, Aguirre, etc, etc, etc (not to mention numerous coaches) over the years. And when they weren't able to beat us, I'm sure I enjoyed ripping on them. But I like to think I also begrudgingly tipped my hat to them for a job well done when it was deserved.
Not sure if I really answered your question, but I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few current Big East coaches rank Markus pretty high on their lists of all-time Marquette players.
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If Woj had bedder talent, wood Howard bee watt he is, hey?
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If Woj had bedder talent, wood Howard bee watt he is, hey?
Impossible question to answer with anything but, "We'll never know."
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Lazar is a terrible, terrible pick
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Lazar is a terrible, terrible pick
I knew you’d hate that one.
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I knew you’d hate that one.
Your Scoop membership should be suspended.
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I think your list is very close 82. We're splitting hairs but Brute Force simply has to be there replacing one of the modern guys.
And I don't necessarily think the 50+ crowd is biased. What the youngins' simply can't appreciate is that we were one of 6 or 8 national 'blue bloods' back in the day and our roster reflected it. Guys like George, and especially Dean, were among the most recruited guys in America. Wooden wanted Meminger badly. It was just different then pre-ESPN.
Agreed. George is on my list without question. His scoring was done the hard way, only 2 point shots, only in 3 years and not time clock.
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Saw Kojis play live in the NBA several times but not at MU. He was an outstanding player . In today’s era Don would be an athletic two.
Kojis was at the MU Alumni game a few years back and was still in great shape at age 77 , broad shoulders etc
I would say Don should easily be on any MU top ten list
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I didn't see him play but Don Kojis should be in the discussion for sure.
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82
I will try and get my top ten put together this weekend. Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation. In addition, because a large number of players comes from the Al era it is not Al bias, it is a fact that highest percent of coveted recruits played at MU during that time. Furthermore, about 8-10 had extremely well rounded college careers, which included winning at high level.
I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.
I agree that you should not dismiss a player you did not see from the conversation. In fact, my view is quite the opposite: if you did not have the chance to see the player play, you should not dismiss that player and instead respect the opinion of those that did. I am 55, and while I was alive for the 70’s bball, and I remember watching MU games in the 70’s, it was rare and I didn’t then know enough about bball to make judgments (even the ill informed type judgments I make today!).
And while I am reluctant to offer opinions of the players pre 1980, I think that it is perfectly fine for those of you who are my age and who were more steeped in MU bball in the 70’s to weigh in. There are bunch of folks like that who went to games or for other reasons were huge fans of the program when they were 8, 10 or 15 years old.
On the other hand, there are a few people here my age and younger who simply talk out of their ass about the players from the Al era, as though they personally experienced the games. I wish I would have seen it, but, again, other than watching a couple of games a year on TV and catching box scores (and now, looking at stats and clips), I didn’t. And neither did most people on scoop. So, have your opinion but don’t act like you were there when you weren’t. (And Goose I have no assumptions about you)
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Was Kojis or Rand better? Seems like the only two names worth mentioning pre Al
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Any list without george thopmson is a very poor list period
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Haven't read all the posts, but I'd say there are 6 players who should be considered indisputable:
Jim Chones
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Dwyane Wade
Some would argue others are "indisputable," but even my own 7-10 picks are debatable in my own mind...and if you have others in those slots, I hereby "dispute" them. ;)
Anyhow - recognizing lots of arguments about number of games/years played, relevance of different eras, NBA careers, and overall team success - and acknowledging that I never saw Kojis or Thompson play at MU - I'd list the 7-10 as:
Jimmy Butler
Lazar Hayward
Markus Howard
Earl Tatum
Of those I excluded, I struggled the most with Jae (one pretty good year, one phenomenal year), Lloyd Walton (don't see much mention of him, but he was an extraordinary PG), and George Thompson (see comment above about never seeing him play). I could easily see any of them included, probably over Lazar or Earl.
But it's awfully nice to be currently watching a guy who is right up in the discussion.
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But it's awfully nice to be currently watching a guy who is right up in the discussion.
This.
I understand him not quite making somebody's top 10. I think he should be included, but I understand and folks can and will disagree about this type of stuff. But to exclude him even from the conversation -- to suggest that a guy who will be our leading scorer by up to 1,000 points isn't even top-20 material -- that doesn't seem right.
I like your list overall, Goooooooooooooooooo, and agree with your Indisputable Six.
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82
I stated that Howard is in my top twenty, but said not likely to make my top ten.
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82
I stated that Howard is in my top twenty, but said not likely to make my top ten.
Wasn't talking about you, but thanks for that note. I remember you saying you just recently slid him into your top-20.
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This.
I understand him not quite making somebody's top 10. I think he should be included, but I understand and folks can and will disagree about this type of stuff. But to exclude him even from the conversation -- to suggest that a guy who will be our leading scorer by up to 1,000 points isn't even top-20 material -- that doesn't seem right.
I like your list overall, Goooooooooooooooooo, and agree with your Indisputable Six.
I actually dislike discussions about 'top 10' or the crap on TV shows that is 'who's better, player A or player b?'..
In a situation like this, we don't have an objective, agreed upon way to judge, so everyone's list is going to be BASED on different criteria, so it begins to make little sense after awhile.
I can see an argument against Markus if you're giving significant weight to defense, size, etc.
But I can also see an argument to give guys 'extra credit' for being supremely talented in an area(s). The scoring prowess of Markus is legendary. It's so unique and special that I have a hard time understanding how he wouldn't be at least in the conversation...
I think if MU gets lucky in the crapshoot (assuming they make it, lol), people may bump him up
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I agree that you should not dismiss a player you did not see from the conversation. In fact, my view is quite the opposite: if you did not have the chance to see the player play, you should not dismiss that player and instead respect the opinion of those that did. I am 55, and while I was alive for the 70’s bball, and I remember watching MU games in the 70’s, it was rare and I didn’t then know enough about bball to make judgments (even the ill informed type judgments I make today!).
And while I am reluctant to offer opinions of the players pre 1980, I think that it is perfectly fine for those of you who are my age and who were more steeped in MU bball in the 70’s to weigh in. There are bunch of folks like that who went to games or for other reasons were huge fans of the program when they were 8, 10 or 15 years old.
On the other hand, there are a few people here my age and younger who simply talk out of their ass about the players from the Al era, as though they personally experienced the games. I wish I would have seen it, but, again, other than watching a couple of games a year on TV and catching box scores (and now, looking at stats and clips), I didn’t. And neither did most people on scoop. So, have your opinion but don’t act like you were there when you weren’t. (And Goose I have no assumptions about you)
Again, I absolutely said that those we haven't seen should not automatically be excluded. I fully understand how folks would choose Lucas, Lee, Thompson, Dean, etc, even if they never saw them play.
Still, I do think it's reasonable that seeing a guy play might give him an edge if it's close in somebody's mind. As I said, I never saw Thompson play one second of basketball while I have seen Markus absolutely dominate games as one of the great scorer/shooters ever to don the blue and gold. So for me, personally, that puts Markus ahead of George. I acknowledge that I probably have similar bias toward Butler and Crowder, too.
I saw very little of Meminger during his time at MU. But I know he was a stud. I also was a big Knicks fan when he played in NY, and he was one of my faves. That no doubt endears him to me more. We all have biases.
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Saw Kojis play live in the NBA several times but not at MU. He was an outstanding player . In today’s era Don would be an athletic two.
Kojis was at the MU Alumni game a few years back and was still in great shape at age 77 , broad shoulders etc
I would say Don should easily be on any MU top ten list
+ 1
If you are willing to recognize that history did NOT start the date you were born (or worse, the day you became aware of MU), then George Thompson and Don Kojis are top 5. Remove Butler and Crowder from your list to make room for them.
Two other top spots have to include MU's only POY Butch Lee, and, of course, Dwyane Wade.
My fifth spot goes to the best player in MU's first 50 years, Terry Rand.
Six through 10 ...
6. Bo Ellis (11 -4 in the NCAA, only player to play in two NCs)
7. Dean Memminger (highest draft pick in MU history at #2)
8. Maurice Lucas (the man that invented the Power Forward)
9. Pick your modern player here (Crowder, McNeal, Butler, etc)
10. Marcus Howard (too many are greatly undervaluing his amazing talent)
Lots of recency bias by people naming Lazar and Gardner to their top ten.
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+ 1
If you are willing to recognize that history did NOT start the date you were born (or worse, the day you became aware of MU), then George Thompson and Don Kojis are top 5. Remove Butler and Crowder from your list to make room for them.
Two other top spots have to include MU's only POY Butch Lee, and, of course, Dewayne Wade.
My fifth spot goes to the best player in MU's first 50 years, Terry Rand.
Six through 10 ...
6. Bo Ellis (11 -4 in the NCAA, only player to play in two NCs)
7. Dean Memminger (highest draft pick in MU history at #2)
8. Maurice Lucas (the man that invented the Power Forward)
9. Pick your modern player here (Crowder, McNeal, Butler, etc)
10. Marcus Howard (too many are greatly undervaluing his amazing talent)
Lots of recency bias by people naming Lazar and Gardner to their top ten.
I don't know if it recency for Lazar he was an honorable mention all American and basically averaged the same as Jae while playing the same way only with more dunks. Feel like him and Jae are interchangeable
Gardner is definitely recency bias in my opinion as much as I loved him he was clearly a level below Jae, Zar, DJO, and the 3 amigos in terms of modern players
I think the love for Butler is based too much on two clutch shots and what he became in the NBA.
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and, of course, Dewayne Wade.
It's almost impressive to misspell his name twice in the same word.
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Haven't read all the posts, but I'd say there are 6 players who should be considered indisputable:
Jim Chones
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Dwyane Wade
Some would argue others are "indisputable," but even my own 7-10 picks are debatable in my own mind...and if you have others in those slots, I hereby "dispute" them. ;)
Anyhow - recognizing lots of arguments about number of games/years played, relevance of different eras, NBA careers, and overall team success - and acknowledging that I never saw Kojis or Thompson play at MU - I'd list the 7-10 as:
Jimmy Butler
Lazar Hayward
Markus Howard
Earl Tatum
Of those I excluded, I struggled the most with Jae (one pretty good year, one phenomenal year), Lloyd Walton (don't see much mention of him, but he was an extraordinary PG), and George Thompson (see comment above about never seeing him play). I could easily see any of them included, probably over Lazar or Earl.
But it's awfully nice to be currently watching a guy who is right up in the discussion.
Lazar? Top 10?
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Wade
Thompson
Chones
Markus
Meminger
Lee
Ellis
Crowder
Lucas
McNeal/Diener = Toss Up
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Lazar
Jae
Lucas
Butch
Marcus
Jerel
Wade
Lloyd Walton/Tony Miller
Brian Wardle
Sam
Lazar, Jae, Jerel ( & Jimmie & Ed) played with passion. Lazar, Jae and Jimmie frequently played the 5 on defense and played it well.
We will never see another team with the 3 point (and free throw) prowess of Marcus, Rowsey and Sam. Defense a problem, yup.
Front court players of the early 70's, (Chones, McNeil, Lucas) were special.
Guys like Wardle, Pieper, Oliver Lee carried the team on their backs when the talent was thin.
Memminger, Walton, Sam Worthy, Tony Miller, true point guards who are fewer and farther between as the game has evolved.
Sam broke my heart. Highest level of basketball sense i've seen coming out of high school.
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Steve Novak does not make my top ten. He does, however, rank higher than Gardner or Lazar.
And Brute Force is top 5.
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It's almost impressive to misspell his name twice in the same word.
Almost made me miss that he spelled Markus wrong as well.
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Not in order.
Wade
Diener
Bo Ellis
Dean the dream
Earl Tatum
Butch Lee
Jim Chones
George Thompson
Doc Rivers or Dominic James
Wes Mathews
Had Sam stayed I could see him possibly being around number 10-12
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Chones
Crowder
Diener
Ellis
Howard
Lee
Meminger
Tatum
Thompson
Wade
Honestly, 9 of these came to me right away. Diener was the one I struggled with. I think you can put Jimmy, Wes, Lazar, Tony Smith, Doc, Novak, James, and McNeal all in a bunch with Diener.
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Not in order.
Wade
Diener
Bo Ellis
Dean the dream
Earl Tatum
Butch Lee
Jim Chones
George Thompson
Doc Rivers or Dominic James
Wes Mathews
Had Sam stayed I could see him possibly being around number 10-12
Diener over Markus?
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Diener over Markus?
If I was just basing my list on scoring ability, Markus would be above Diener.
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If I was just basing my list on scoring ability, Markus would be above Diener.
Let’s not forget about the TBT contributions to the Golden Eagles.
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Side note: Jim Chones should have his number retired.
Yes. And before Markus. Not that he is more deserving. But he's waited long enough and it should happen while he is alive. We can go to the 'retired jersey' concept to accomplish.
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In no particular order:
George
Wade
Markus
Butch
Chones
Dean
Lucas
T Smith
Jae
Bo
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Let’s not forget about the TBT contributions to the Golden Eagles.
Then Diener moves into my top 10 to take the top spot.
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Still too much recency bias ...
Remove Butler, Crowder, Novak, Lazar, McNeal, Diener, Dom James, Gardner, Matthews (seriously Bad_Reporter ... Mathews???) and Sam/Miller (franklin, you need to lie down).
In their place, every list should have Thompson and Rand.
So updating Goo's list.
Here is what should be the consensus 8 of the top 10
Jim Chones
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Dwyane Wade
George Thompson
Terry Rand
Markus should have one of these spots.
So the argument is now who gets the 10th.
Who disagrees?
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Still too much recency bias ...
Remove Butler, Crowder, Novak, Lazar, McNeal, Diener, Dom James, Gardner, Matthews (seriously Bad_Reporter ... Mathews???) and Sam/Miller (franklin, you need to lie down).
In their place, every list should have Thompson and Rand.
So updating Goo's list.
Here is what should be the consensus 8 of the top 10
Jim Chones
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Dwyane Wade
George Thompson
Terry Rand
Markus should have one of these spots.
So the argument is now who gets the 10th.
Who disagrees?
Agree with your general sense of recency bias - and TAMU said it well when placing all of Lazar, Wes, Jerel, Jimmy, Novak, James, etc., in the same bucket.
However, Jae Crowder in my view deserves a spot in Top 10. He embodied the very sense of the word Warrior, affected the game in virtually every category, including sheer toughness, leadership, and all other intangibles.
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The night of the '77 National Championship, my mom, God rest her soul, drove me, my sister and a couple of friends to Mitchell field from our home in tosa to see if we could catch a glimpse of the players. I was a junior in HS. We were lucky enough to see them all at baggage claim. I pulled a couple of scraps of paper out of my pocket. They were a written a excuse from my mom for an eye appointment and the release form from the principal's office. I couldn't get 3 of the players to sign. One, sadly, was Butch Lee (he was mobbed and I couldn't get close enough) the others were Gary Rosenberger and Mark Lavin.
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The only reason you leave off Jae Crowder is because he only played two seasons. He is a no brainer top 10 player for me.
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The night of the '77 National Championship, my mom, God rest her soul, drove me, my sister and a couple of friends to Mitchell field from our home in tosa to see if we could catch a glimpse of the players. I was a junior in HS. We were lucky enough to see them all at baggage claim. I pulled a couple of scraps of paper out of my pocket. They were a written a excuse from my mom for an eye appointment and the release form from the principal's office. I couldn't get 3 of the players to sign. One, sadly, was Butch Lee (he was mobbed and I couldn't get close enough) the others were Gary Rosenberger and Mark Lavin.
That's really cool.
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TAMU
That is a difference in our top ten thinking. There are two guys on most peoples list that played two or less. While I have Jae on my long list of 7-15, his time here does not factor into my decision. Like I said in another post, I’ll take another Jae like two years over another similar Howard run.
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Don Kojis is 17th on all-time MU scoring list, Bob Wolf, and Mike Moran
who weren't mentioned are 18th and 21st, Ron Glaser 24th and Terry Rand 25th, Tom Flynn 28th. Just thought I would throw some MU history
in. If I'm wrong please correct me.