Sports Illustrated prepared the following pre season rankings of the Big East.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/07/09/big-east-power-rankings-villanova-seton-hall-georgetown
They could have done at least a few extra minutes to research on MU besides looking at a stat sheet... :o
I see why this was not an excellent research report.
wow! dan didn't burn many calories getting that report together. looks like something he could have thrown together while pushing out his sunday morning growler
Very weak assessment based on anecdotal information and high-level facts.
That said, if we're the sixth best team in a weak conference, then Wojo's seat will be at 1000 degrees Kelvin in late February.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 29, 2019, 10:44:47 PM
Very weak assessment based on anecdotal information and high-level facts.
That said, if we're the sixth best team in a weak conference, then Wojo's seat will be at 1000 degrees Kelvin in late February.
It's never been a weak conference and certainly will not be weak this season.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on July 29, 2019, 11:55:52 PM
It's never been a weak conference and certainly will not be weak this season.
Brother Eagle, weak is defined by Big East standards -- according to the article there is not a national championship contender here. The SI assessment
suggests we're not as strong as some of our peers.
Regardless of whether our conference is strong, if we're sixth best with a senior laden team, then I stand by my comment that Wojo's seat will make even Satan complain about the heat. As things should be.
6th best team in the big east this year likely makes the tournament with some room to spare. So no, the seat would not be that hot.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2019, 07:20:34 AM
6th best team in the big east this year likely makes the tournament with some room to spare. So no, the seat would not be that hot.
History suggests that the 6th place BE team will be 9-9 and have about a 50/50 chance of making the NCAAs. That feels like a crapshoot to me.
Orlando makes or breaks MU under that scenario.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 30, 2019, 08:37:10 AM
History suggests that the 6th place BE team will be 9-9 and have about a 50/50 chance of making the NCAAs. That feels like a crapshoot to me.
Orlando makes or breaks MU under that scenario.
This will be one of if not the strongest and deepest Big Easts since realignment. I think 9-9 will go a lot further this season than it has in the past. I see six top 35 teams in the Big East with two more with legitimate tournament aspirations. Plus two cellar dwellers in DePaul and St. John's that will give out a lot of wins to the top 8 teams. Villanova isn't the national title favorite like they were in the past but I think they are still top 10. Marquette, Seton Hall, and Xavier all have cases for top 25.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2019, 08:54:41 AM
This will be one of if not the strongest and deepest Big Easts since realignment. I think 9-9 will go a lot further this season than it has in the past. I see six top 35 teams in the Big East with two more with legitimate tournament aspirations. Plus two cellar dwellers in DePaul and St. John's that will give out a lot of wins to the top 8 teams. Villanova isn't the national title favorite like they were in the past but I think they are still top 10. Marquette, Seton Hall, and Xavier all have cases for top 25.
All this puts a lot of pressure on Orlando. That is the most balanced Holiday tournament MU has participated in that I recall (especially with a crap home OOC). No 8-10 NBE team has ever made the NCAAs.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on July 29, 2019, 11:55:52 PM
It's never been a weak conference and certainly will not be weak this season.
Uhhhh...? Last year was pretty weak.
Last year the Big East was fifth in conference RPI at the end of the year. That was the lowest since the C7 breakaway. It has finished as high as second or as low as fourth. And while they got four teams into the tournament, the only one to win a game got throttled in the second round.
So while in the grand scheme of things, the Big East isn't a weak conference, historically it was weak last year.
Quote from: #UnleashCain on July 30, 2019, 09:23:14 AM
Uhhhh...? Last year was pretty weak.
It's all relative. If BE is ranked 5th best conference according to the analytics sites... are they weak compared to the usual BE level, other P6 conferences, or just in general? I doubt MWV would call themselves weak at 5th... but the ACC surely wouldn't be happy at that level.
SI's assessment is meaningless. The only opinion that counts is your own. If we were to finish 6th or at any level and you think that is a great accomplishment you will be a happy camper. Otherwise, you will be frustrated and look for a coaching change that will not happen given our administration.
For me this team will need to demonstrate, in games against significant opponents, they have a well rounded team. If it is a one man show with a supporting cast it will not be enjoyable.
I'm expecting this team to finish higher than sixth. It would be a disappointing season to be .500 even though that may comfortably get MU into the tournament. Regardless of the Hauser's situation, this is the year MU has been building toward. They have a All-American, NPOY candidate returning, an impact transfer (two if you count Jayce), solid senior players in Morrow and Sacar, and good young talent.
I'm not expecting a national championship. I'm really not even expecting a BE championship. But a 4-seed, second weekend appearance has got to be where this team ends up at least.
Quote from: Class71 on July 30, 2019, 10:09:28 AM
SI's assessment is meaningless. The only opinion that counts is your own. If we were to finish 6th or at any level and you think that is a great accomplishment you will be a happy camper. Otherwise, you will be frustrated and look for a coaching change that will not happen given our administration.
For me this team will need to demonstrate, in games against significant opponents, they have a well rounded team. If it is a one man show with a supporting cast it will not be enjoyable.
Even without the Hausers, this team is very old, 3 fifth year seniors, 4 older by age players as well in McEven, Howard, Cain, and Bailey. Add Theo and Elliott. Thats 9 players with tremendous experience, should be better than 6th if Wojo can coach Howard to be more of a facillator or
one of the other guards steps up and can play turnover free point guard.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 30, 2019, 10:22:14 AM
I'm expecting this team to finish higher than sixth. It would be a disappointing season to be .500 even though that may comfortably get MU into the tournament. Regardless of the Hauser's situation, this is the year MU has been building toward. They have a All-American, NPOY candidate returning, an impact transfer (two if you count Jayce), solid senior players in Morrow and Sacar, and good young talent.
I'm not expecting a national championship. I'm really not even expecting a BE championship. But a 4-seed, second weekend appearance has got to be where this team ends up at least.
Thinking alike, agree totally
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 30, 2019, 10:22:14 AM
I'm expecting this team to finish higher than sixth. It would be a disappointing season to be .500 even though that may comfortably get MU into the tournament. Regardless of the Hauser's situation, this is the year MU has been building toward. They have a All-American, NPOY candidate returning, an impact transfer (two if you count Jayce), solid senior players in Morrow and Sacar, and good young talent.
I'm not expecting a national championship. I'm really not even expecting a BE championship. But a 4-seed, second weekend appearance has got to be where this team ends up at least.
I agree on expectations. I personally see a second place finish and a 5 seed as a realistic expectation. Below that and I'll be disappointed. But there is difference between personal disappointment and coach ending up on the hot seat.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
I agree on expectations. I personally see a second place finish and a 5 seed as a realistic expectation. Below that and I'll be disappointed. But there is difference between personal disappointment and coach ending up on the hot seat.
Unless the top team is winning 16+ games and 2nd through 7th all win 8-11 games, I think 2nd place in this year's Big East will be in the 2-3 seed range.
(No longer directed at you) My favorite comment on Scoop is that "this administration" won't be making a change. What does that even mean?
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2019, 10:42:19 AM
Unless the top team is winning 16+ games and 2nd through 7th all win 8-11 games, I think 2nd place in this year's Big East will be in the 2-3 seed range.
(No longer directed at you) My favorite comment on Scoop is that "this administration" won't be making a change. What does that even mean?
Means no Hot Seat for Wojo. That is he will not be fired. He is well liked. He is the kind of coach MU wants. Results are secondary. Win or loose he will continue as head coach. Time to move on.
DePaul has the potential to be a dangerous team by the second half of the conference season. Likewise The Johnnies.
DePaul had good momentum at the end of the season last year . I think they can maintain it with a little bit of time to transition to the new group of talent.
DePaul has some quality newcomers coming in to replace the production that was graduated. It will take a while for everyone to jell, but the potential is there. Carte' Are Gordon, Charlie Moore, Darious Hall are all interesting transfers. Romeo Weems and Markese Jacobs (should be healthy by end of season) are high quality freshman. Paul Reed was named the most Improved Player in the Big East and was very formidable last year , will likely be an All Big East type player this year . Gage and Butz are serviceable Big East types.
Heron and Figueroa are both back for the Johnnies and there are a slew of transfers coming in. Mike Anderson is a quality coach who will milk as much as he can from the group he has. Similar to DePaul it will take a while to get everyone working together in a cohesive way.
Hopefully, both The Johnnies and DePaul have moderate OCC schedules and can build their NET ranking early before the conference season.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2019, 10:42:19 AM
Unless the top team is winning 16+ games and 2nd through 7th all win 8-11 games, I think 2nd place in this year's Big East will be in the 2-3 seed range.
Good point, though I think that's exactly what could happen. I see Nova as a 2 seed, but then I see Marquette, Seton Hall, Xavier, and Creighton all in the 4-7 seed range with Providence right behind in the 8-10 seed range. 1 very good team, lots of really good teams, a couple good teams, and two bad teams.
Quote from: Class71 on July 30, 2019, 11:07:53 AM
Means no Hot Seat for Wojo. That is he will not be fired. He is well liked. He is the kind of coach MU wants. Results are secondary. Win or loose he will continue as head coach. Time to move on.
Simply not true.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 30, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
DePaul has the potential to be a dangerous team by the second half of the conference season. Likewise The Johnnies.
DePaul had good momentum at the end of the season last year . I think they can maintain it with a little bit of time to transition to the new group of talent.
DePaul has some quality newcomers coming in to replace the production that was graduated. It will take a while for everyone to jell, but the potential is there. Carte' Are Gordon, Charlie Moore, Darious Hall are all interesting transfers. Romeo Weems and Markese Jacobs (should be healthy by end of season) are high quality freshman. Paul Reed was named the most Improved Player in the Big East and was very formidable last year , will likely be an All Big East type player this year . Gage and Butz are serviceable Big East types.
DePaul has a good young class that could be good in a few years. Maybe they upset a team or two this season but they are still going to be nowhere near the tournament (or NIT).
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 30, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
Heron and Figueroa are both back for the Johnnies and there are a slew of transfers coming in. Mike Anderson is a quality coach who will milk as much as he can from the group he has. Similar to DePaul it will take a while to get everyone working together in a cohesive way.
Hopefully, both The Johnnies and DePaul have moderate OCC schedules and can build their NET ranking early before the conference season.
Heron and Figueroa were the 3rd and 4th best players on a team that finished 88th in KenPom. The slew of transfers include a guy from Houston Baptist (333rd in Kenpom that year), a juco who only managed 4.1 points a game for Jacksonville (320th in Kenpom that year) as a freshman, a guy who averaged 5 points a game for Monmouth (295th in Kempom) this year, a guy who averaged 3 points a game for Mississippi State, and a former 3 star who appeared in 1 game for NC State (who I don't think is eligible for the first semester).
I have no doubt that Anderson will have them in fighting shape in a few years. But they will be very bad this season.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 30, 2019, 10:22:14 AM
I'm expecting this team to finish higher than sixth. It would be a disappointing season to be .500 even though that may comfortably get MU into the tournament. Regardless of the Hauser's situation, this is the year MU has been building toward. They have a All-American, NPOY candidate returning, an impact transfer (two if you count Jayce), solid senior players in Morrow and Sacar, and good young talent.
I'm not expecting a national championship. I'm really not even expecting a BE championship. But a 4-seed, second weekend appearance has got to be where this team ends up at least.
+1
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2019, 11:41:21 AM
DePaul has a good young class that could be good in a few years. Maybe they upset a team or two this season but they are still going to be nowhere near the tournament (or NIT).
Heron and Figueroa were the 3rd and 4th best players on a team that finished 88th in KenPom. The slew of transfers include a guy from Houston Baptist (333rd in Kenpom that year), a juco who only managed 4.1 points a game for Jacksonville (320th in Kenpom that year) as a freshman, a guy who averaged 5 points a game for Monmouth (295th in Kempom) this year, a guy who averaged 3 points a game for Mississippi State, and a former 3 star who appeared in 1 game for NC State (who I don't think is eligible for the first semester).
I have no doubt that Anderson will have them in fighting shape in a few years. But they will be very bad this season.
Agree that both schools are up against headwinds this year. However, experience has shown these kinds of teams are thorns in the butt at the end of the season. they will both be classic Trap game type teams this year. So the actual difference in the top 8 teams in the league this year may end up coming down to who actually sweeps The Johnnies and DePaul.
Herman calling this a "research report" seems questionable.
Quote from: Class71 on July 30, 2019, 11:07:53 AM
Means no Hot Seat for Wojo. That is he will not be fired. He is well liked. He is the kind of coach MU wants. Results are secondary. Win or loose he will continue as head coach. Time to move on.
So you are of the opinion that as long as "this administration" is in place the only way Wojo ever leaves is if he chooses to on his own?
Couldn't disagree more, but to each their own. "This administration" has shown that they have no problem letting go of people if they are not getting their job done.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 30, 2019, 09:17:29 AM
No 8-10 NBE team has ever made the NCAAs.
St. John's did just this year.
Quote from: pux90mex on July 30, 2019, 12:45:28 PM
St. John's did just this year.
They finished 7th not 8-10.
Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on July 30, 2019, 12:49:04 PM
They finished 7th not 8-10.
Why not both?
https://www.bigeast.com/standings.aspx?path=mbball (https://www.bigeast.com/standings.aspx?path=mbball)
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 30, 2019, 09:17:29 AM
No 8-10 NBE team has ever made the NCAAs.
Wat.
Not only did St John's do it last year, but only 3 NBE teams have finished 8-10.
Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on July 30, 2019, 12:49:04 PM
They finished 7th not 8-10.
But their conference record was 8-10
Quote from: pux90mex on July 30, 2019, 12:45:28 PM
St. John's did just this year.
I will give you St. John's and 7th. That's it.
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 30, 2019, 02:47:32 PM
Wat.
Not only did St John's do it last year, but only 3 NBE teams have finished 8-10.
Who else other than SJU who finished 8-10
and made the NCAAs? I don't see any in KPom (I see NIT). I see Xavier at 9-9 and 7th.
Point is, it's an anomaly. If we are relying on 6th or a 8-10 in a "strong" year, those are low expectations.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 30, 2019, 06:36:51 PM
Who else other than SJU who finished 8-10 and made the NCAAs? I don't see any in KPom (I see NIT). I see Xavier at 9-9 and 7th.
As I mentioned, there has been ONLY 2 OTHER teams in the NBE to finish 8-10. It's not like a 1 of 20 or even 1 of 10... or 1 of 5.
Georgetown was a 4-seed in the NIT after losing in noncon to a bad Northeastern team and going 0-1 in the BEast tourney with a loss to lowly DePaul.
The other and more recent - way back in 2015-16 - was us. Our nonconf schedule had tons of absolutely pathetic opponents, including Grambling, Maine, Chicago St. and Presbyterian.
There was a reason both fell short.
8-10 can definitely get you in the discussion...
The point is only that it was a lie when you said it's never been done.. there's only 3 teams that fit that criteria.. and one made it..
Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?
If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.
If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.
My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.
The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.
You can define success as whatever you want. That is your right as a fan. Just don't expect hiring/firing decisions to be made based on fans' personal expectations. Very few coaches get fired immediately after making the NCAA tournament without off the court issues.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 31, 2019, 01:24:23 PM
You can define success as whatever you want. That is your right as a fan. Just don't expect hiring/firing decisions to be made based on fans' personal expectations. Very few coaches get fired immediately after making the NCAA tournament without off the court issues.
Yep.
How Scoopers define "success" is meaningless as to the actual temp of Wojo's actual seat.
Not saying we can't or shouldn't talk about it -- that's what fan boards are for -- but I do always get a kick out of the "Wojo better win X number of games" or "Wojo better get to the second weekend" posts.
My reaction is always: Or else what? Some Scoopers will be mad?
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 31, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?
If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.
If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.
My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.
The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.
This mentality I don't get. It's not like us younger alumni didn't see tournament success. Anyone at MU from 02-13 experienced consistent draft picks, great basketball, runs in the tournament, etc. the Al era fans don't corner the market on successful MU basketball, its not like Seton Hall where you were there for PJ or you don't know what basketball is
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 31, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
If success is graduating all your players....He gets an "A" for all this.
Why would he get an A for the factual results that have occurred thus far? Look closely.
(btw, I'm fine with the graduation and non-graduation results thus far... but don't see how you'd call it an A)
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 31, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?
If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.
If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.
My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.
The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.
I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis. The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success. As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.
MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause. MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn. For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of The Johnnies and DePaul.
My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years. Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 07:31:54 PM
I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis. The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success. As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.
MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause. MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn. For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of The Johnnies and DePaul.
My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years. Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.
The last three years of the Wojo era have looked a lot like some of the pieces of the Crean/Buzz years. Already returning to that standard.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 07:31:54 PM
I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis. The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success. As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.
MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause. MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn. For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of The Johnnies and DePaul.
My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years. Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.
You're thinking of X 2 years ago with a different coach. Nothing about their .500 record and 12 point home loss to DePaul plus blowout loss at us and blowing a 14 point second half lead at home against us with one returning player over 40% from three says 2nd best to me. I know how you're high on every Beast coach but Wojo, but Steele showed me very little to prove anything.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 07:31:54 PM
I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis. The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success. As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.
MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause. MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn. For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of The Johnnies and DePaul.
My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years. Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.
Talking to yourself again
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 31, 2019, 09:00:00 PM
You're thinking of X 2 years ago with a different coach. Nothing about their .500 record and 12 point home loss to DePaul plus blowout loss at us and blowing a 14 point second half lead at home against us with one returning player over 40% from three says 2nd best to me. I know how you're high on every Beast coach but Wojo, but Steele showed me very little to prove anything.
Under the same first year circumstances, Wojo delivered a 14-19 year. Steele came in and immediately signed up 3 grad transfers to hold the fort , then signed 5 quality recruits for 2019. By the end of the season ,X was one of the top teams in the league. At the Big East semis, which I attended , they were clearly second best in the building. Steele has already secured two very nice recruitsand also picked up two more quality grad transfers. Net net, he has done more ,with less , faster than Wojo could ever conceive of.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:09:36 PM
Under the same first year circumstances, Wojo delivered a 14-19 year. Steele came in and immediately signed up 3 grad transfers to hold the fort , then signed 5 quality recruits for 2019. By the end of the season ,X was one of the top teams in the league. At the Big East semis, which I attended , they were clearly second best in the building. Steele has already secured two very nice recruitsand also picked up two more quality grad transfers. Net net, he has done more ,with less , faster than Wojo could ever conceive of.
So of Wojo had brought in 2 more Carlino's and gotten an NIT, had a great class (which he did BTW highlighted by an all american 1st round draft pick) you would have been tripping over yourself giving him praise?
I'm not saying that Steele is a bust, but 4 to 5 years to judge became a thing because it's kinda true. Steele is still a question mark IMO. X has the potential to be a top 25 team next year, but until it actually happens I'll remain unconvinved.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:09:36 PM
Under the same first year circumstances, Wojo delivered a 14-19 year. Steele came in and immediately signed up 3 grad transfers to hold the fort , then signed 5 quality recruits for 2019. By the end of the season ,X was one of the top teams in the league. At the Big East semis, which I attended , they were clearly second best in the building. Steele has already secured two very nice recruitsand also picked up two more quality grad transfers. Net net, he has done more ,with less , faster than Wojo could ever conceive of.
Steele took over a team that had earned a 1 seed and returned 4/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (though one decided to go overseas after Steele was hired)
Wojo took over a team that had missed the NIT and returned 1/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (and the one was Derrick Wilson)
Not even close to "same first year circumstances"
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 31, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?
If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.
If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.
My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.
The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.
Different world back then. Massively different.
If I read your middle paragraph correctly, we simply haven't been successful since Al. Not one coach since has made us consistently top 10. In fact, we have only had a top 10 avg finish one time since Al left and that was 1978.
http://collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.XUJQZMplChA
I'm just fine winning, winning often, staying out of trouble, and occasionally having a strong run.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 31, 2019, 09:19:18 PM
So of Wojo had brought in 2 more Carlino's and gotten an NIT, had a great class (which he did BTW highlighted by an all american 1st round draft pick) you would have been tripping over yourself giving him praise?
I'm not saying that Steele is a bust, but 4 to 5 years to judge became a thing because it's kinda true. Steele is still a question mark IMO. X has the potential to be a top 25 team next year, but until it actually happens I'll remain unconvinved.
I am saying that X has a continuity of their program. Steele so far has given several good early data points that point to that sustainability of X success.
Also Henry was not an All American.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 31, 2019, 09:26:52 PM
Steele took over a team that had earned a 1 seed and returned 4/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (though one decided to go overseas after Steele was hired)
Wojo took over a team that had missed the NIT and returned 1/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (and the one was Derrick Wilson)
Not even close to "same first year circumstances"
Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.
Quote from: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:39:51 PM
Different world back then. Massively different.
If I read your middle paragraph correctly, we simply haven't been successful since Al. Not one coach since has made us consistently top 10. In fact, we have only had a top 10 avg finish one time since Al left and that was 1978.
http://collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.XUJQZMplChA
I'm just fine winning, winning often, staying out of trouble, and occasionally having a strong run.
What I would like us to be is a team with sustained success. A winning team that's consistently Top 10 and capable of contending for a natty. Maybe we'll get there, but this year for me is make-or-break. As I have said elsewhere, we need a Top 10 recruiting class and a few wins in the NCAA.
Hausergate notwithstanding, we need a Top 3 Big East finish this year, a "4" seed or better in the NCAA and a very good 2020 incoming class. That's the beginning of sustainable. We do these things and I'm sold that we're headed where we should be.
Staying out of trouble, "winning often" (whatever that means) and having an occasional strong run doesn't do it for a 1970s era Warrior. It just doesn't. Sounds to me like Dayton or God-forbid, DePaul. if we're headed in this direction, Jean Lenti-Ponsetto is your athletic director.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:48:46 PM
I am saying that X has a continuity of their program. Steele so far has given several good early data points that point to that sustainability of X success.
Also Henry was not an All American.
MU had the exact same thing before Buzz shat on the program, both in terms of results and off-court issues.
Henry was an all american coming out of HS, he just didn't get to compete in the McD All American game because he broke his hand.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:53:16 PM
Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.
He only ever gave one rebuttal. And that was "the team had 7 former top 100 players on it, how bad could it have been?"
But IIRC, you say recruit rankings are not worth the paper they are written on...
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:53:16 PM
Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.
Then you should be banned just like him. Oh wait, what happened to MUFINY?
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:53:16 PM
Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.
All any of us need to know. Ever.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 31, 2019, 09:54:12 PM
What I would like us to be is a team with sustained success. A winning team that's consistently Top 10 and capable of contending for a natty. Maybe we'll get there, but this year for me is make-or-break. As I have said elsewhere, we need a Top 10 recruiting class and a few wins in the NCAA.
Hausergate notwithstanding, we need a Top 3 Big East finish this year, a "4" seed or better in the NCAA and a very good 2020 incoming class. That's the beginning of sustainable. We do these things and I'm sold that we're headed where we should be.
Staying out of trouble, "winning often" (whatever that means) and having an occasional strong run doesn't do it for a 1970s era Warrior. It just doesn't. Sounds to me like Dayton or God-forbid, DePaul. if we're headed in this direction, Jean Lenti-Ponsetto is your athletic director.
It sounds nothing like Dayton or DePaul, with all due respect. There is massive room between competing for a Natty and being DePaul. We can be very good, ncaa tournament team most of the time, occasional deep run and not have to cheat or have a holes represent the team while being successful.
I get what the old timers experienced, but that world is gone. College basketball is nothing like it was then, kids have way more options now. We can still be very good, but most of the items that benefited MU in the 70's no longer exist, or exist for many schools now which took away advantages. Because that no longer exist# doesn't mean the alternative is DePaul.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 31, 2019, 07:31:54 PM
I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis. The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success. As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.
MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause. MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn. For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of The Johnnies and DePaul.
My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years. Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.
1. Sure. But, as evidenced by coaching failures all over the NCAA, there seems to be as good of a chance at a new coach doing worse.
2. The irony in your optimistic outcome of Wojo moving on, is that you continuously bad-mouth our administration and think very little of them.. yet believe in them enough to make a successful next hire.
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 01, 2019, 01:00:53 AM
1. Sure. But, as evidenced by coaching failures all over the NCAA, there seems to be as good of a chance at a new coach doing worse.
2. The irony in your optimistic outcome of Wojo moving on, is that you continuously bad-mouth our administration and think very little of them.. yet believe in them enough to make a successful next hire.
Scholl is a very good guy. I have confidence in him.
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 07:33:42 AM
Scholl is a very good guy. I have confidence in him.
So by extension do you have a lot of confidence in Wojo? Cause Scholl does
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 07:33:42 AM
Scholl is a very good guy. I have confidence in him.
And there you Go.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 01, 2019, 08:59:33 AM
So by extension do you have a lot of confidence in Wojo? Cause Scholl does
Transitive theory does not apply. Scholl has to do what Lovell says.
Quote from: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 11:20:14 PM
It sounds nothing like Dayton or DePaul, with all due respect. There is massive room between competing for a Natty and being DePaul. We can be very good, ncaa tournament team most of the time, occasional deep run and not have to cheat or have a holes represent the team while being successful.
I get what the old timers experienced, but that world is gone. College basketball is nothing like it was then, kids have way more options now. We can still be very good, but most of the items that benefited MU in the 70's no longer exist, or exist for many schools now which took away advantages. Because that no longer exist# doesn't mean the alternative is DePaul.
I am an "old timer" from the Al era but I agree that it is more than just a matter of decades- college basketball is different today. Just one example, sustained defense (Al's forte'),is much easier when you do not have to deal with a pesky 30 second shot clock. However, I also (for the most part) get what dgies is saying- let's never take our eyes off getting another Natty. The difference is that I get that it may take a long, long time so i will enjoy whatever success Marquette has on the court in the meantime. I may croak before Marquette wins another Natty.
Getting back to Al- my favorite Al quote (I may not have it perfectly) was his retort to LSU coach Maravich after he brushed off the importance of defense before the game with MU: "If you believe that, your ass is grassed and I'm your lawnmower".
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 09:04:57 AM
Transitive theory does not apply. Scholl has to do what Lovell says.
Then how can Scholl hire who he wants?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 01, 2019, 09:07:14 AM
Then how can Scholl hire who he wants?
When Lovell gives the okay to dump to Wojo. AD then heads the search .
Quote from: Class71 on July 30, 2019, 11:07:53 AM
Means no Hot Seat for Wojo. That is he will not be fired. He is well liked. He is the kind of coach MU wants. Results are secondary. Win or loose he will continue as head coach. Time to move on.
Never. There can always be improvement. And Wojo is mediocre.
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 09:22:29 AM
When Lovell gives the okay to dump to Wojo. AD then heads the search .
So you have confidence in Scholl's ability to serve as Lovell's puppet?
Quote from: MU82 on August 01, 2019, 10:09:42 AM
So you have confidence in Scholl's ability to serve as Lovell's puppet?
Keep in mind that this is the same bot that thinks that Wojo is mediocre, but Stan is the best thing since sliced bread.
Quote from: MU82 on August 01, 2019, 10:09:42 AM
So you have confidence in Scholl's ability to serve as Lovell's puppet?
When Scholl came in Wojo was in place. Scholl is a savvy and sophisticated guy and will wait until given the green light to make changes.
When the board starts to put pressure on Lovell action will happen. That is how these things work.
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 09:04:57 AM
Transitive theory does not apply. Scholl has to do what Lovell says.
You're not addressing what I said. Scholl himself is a huge Wojo fan, loves what he is doing and thinks he can do more. So if you are confident in Scholl, you should also be confident in Wojo.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 01, 2019, 11:46:09 AM
You're not addressing what I said. Scholl himself is a huge Wojo fan, loves what he is doing and thinks he can do more. So if you are confident in Scholl, you should also be confident in Wojo.
This is where he goes full Deonte mode and proclaims that even though Scholl had repeatedly public endorsed Wojo, he can't say what he really think, and only tells Herman in their secret meeting right after Herman is done showing Osa around.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 01, 2019, 11:46:09 AM
You're not addressing what I said. Scholl himself is a huge Wojo fan, loves what he is doing and thinks he can do more. So if you are confident in Scholl, you should also be confident in Wojo.
It is Scholls job to say good things about the people in his employ in the Athletic Department . That is what a talented AD does . The good words come right until the end.
So yes, when the time comes and Lovell and the Board say Uncle , I am very confident in Scholls ability to get us a better coach then we have now. Until then it's sea shells and balloons.
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 11:51:51 AM
It is Scholls job to say good things about the people in his employ in the Athletic Department . That is what a talented AD does . The good words come right until the end.
It is his job. In this case he also means them. To say otherwise is to spread a lie about a man you claim to respect.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 01, 2019, 11:57:01 AM
It is his job. In this case he also means them. To say otherwise is to spread a lie about a man you claim to respect.
Those are your words not mine.
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 12:00:55 PM
Those are your words not mine.
So you're not implying that Scholl doesn't have confidence in Wojo and is only keeping him around because Lovell is forcing him to?
A million chefs kisses
Quote from: Herman Cain on August 01, 2019, 11:51:51 AM
It is Scholls job to say good things about the people in his employ in the Athletic Department . That is what a talented AD does . The good words come right until the end.
This is very true. If any school/administration was expressing any level of concern about it's head coach they would be complete amatures and idiots. No one on this board will ever know the true feelings about Wojo because MU's people are smart professionals that will only speak extremely highly of him.
There is a reason MU let Wojo run up close to the end of his last contract and only gave him a moderate extension.
The "wins and losses don't matter" comments are completely untrue. Those who claim this are either disappointed with Wojo and frustrated with MU's lack of making a change or people who love to bash on MU and paint the people incharge as fools.
For the record, I like Wojo and am happy he was extended. I think the extension was appropriate for a coach who has shown promise but still has much to prove. The extension was in no way an attempt to "lock up" a great coach fo a long time.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 01, 2019, 09:06:19 AM
I am an "old timer" from the Al era but I agree that it is more than just a matter of decades- college basketball is different today. Just one example, sustained defense (Al's forte'),is much easier when you do not have to deal with a pesky 30 second shot clock. However, I also (for the most part) get what dgies is saying- let's never take our eyes off getting another Natty. The difference is that I get that it may take a long, long time so i will enjoy whatever success Marquette has on the court in the meantime. I may croak before Marquette wins another Natty.
Getting back to Al- my favorite Al quote (I may not have it perfectly) was his retort to LSU coach Maravich after he brushed off the importance of defense before the game with MU: "If you believe that, your ass is grassed and I'm your lawnmower".
I do not disagree with the notion that the world is different. But because the game is played differently, because the kids are more aggressively recruited and because information on great players is easier to come by doesn't mean Marquette can't be a perennial competitor for a natty. Everyone has down years and we will too, but the notion that we should accept consistent mediocrity because the 1970s happened a long time ago is something this wrinkled Warrior has trouble accepting.
Yeah, defenses are different. And the NBA is out there. But think about it for a moment. In 1972, we had arguably the best or second best team in the nation when our all-American starting center bolted in mid-February for the NBA. In 1974-1975, we were defending national runner-up when our all-American power forward left in September for the ABA. That was even worse than the one-and-dones of today because we could not fix the problem immediately -- we had to wait a year.
We honor Al by committing to his level of success, not by painting his name on the floor of our arena. We know the game has changed but we have to change with it!
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 01, 2019, 01:01:25 PM
I do not disagree with the notion that the world is different. But because the game is played differently, because the kids are more aggressively recruited and because information on great players is easier to come by doesn't mean Marquette can't be a perennial competitor for a natty. Everyone has down years and we will too, but the notion that we should accept consistent mediocrity because the 1970s happened a long time ago is something this wrinkled Warrior has trouble accepting.
Yeah, defenses are different. And the NBA is out there. But think about it for a moment. In 1972, we had arguably the best or second best team in the nation when our all-American starting center bolted in mid-February for the NBA. In 1974-1975, we were defending national runner-up when our all-American power forward left in September for the ABA. That was even worse than the one-and-dones of today because we could not fix the problem immediately -- we had to wait a year.
We honor Al by committing to his level of success, not by painting his name on the floor of our arena. We know the game has changed but we have to change with it!
I think we are closer to agreement than disagreement on many fronts. I just don't think that most people on this board are willing to accept "consistent mediocrity" although some probably do. Whether or not Wojo is the guy to bring us to the Promised Land or not is yet to be determined. It bothers me that after 5 years the question is still unresolved. I thought last year's #10 ranking was at least 5 spots too high and think this coming season's team is going to catch a lot of teams with their pants down.
I probably should have defined "long,long time" in my original post. IF Wojo proves to be the guy to get us back in the spotlight, I see us in at least the Elite 8 and maybe the Final Four within 5 years. It could easily take a few more years before we are in a National Championship game. Hopefully I do not croak before then. Still recovering from open heart surgery that hopefully added years to my life. I should probably take sedatives before watching MU's games so I can watch the buzzer beaters.
Your bolded statement is great.
Fair warning to younger fans: old fart's Al story to follow:
My very brief face to face meeting with Al occured when I walked by his office door in Johnston Hall. The door was ajar and I could not help myself from peeking in, thinking that the office was vacant. It was not, much to my embarrassment. Instead of looking up at me and growling "What the F do you want? Get the hell out of here!" Al smiled and said "Hi! Howya doin'?" followed by my very quick exit.