MUScoop

For my money it's Joe. Had he put in 15-20 solid PG min this year then 1) Everyone not so gassed at end of year 2) Markus plays more off the ball 3) which maybe means Hausers don't lose heart and stick around.

Write in for Froling.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 09, 2019, 06:19:49 AM
Write in for Froling.

Wish I could take my vote back because this is correct

Many of the guys that are listed were disappointments because they transferred.   But I would be hard pressed to label Joey or Haanif busts.  Traci maybe.  But Hank?  Not a chance.

Joe?  I don't know.  He certainly didn't live up to expectations but bust is harsh.

Harry Froling was supposed to be a difference maker and lasted one semester.

Kate Upton, hey?

Scoop

Can the answer be...Wojo himself??  8-)

Shaka

What is Wojo's ugliest tie?

Which airline does Wojo have the most flier miles with?

What was Wojo's least helpful timeout speech?

How much weight has Wojo put on since becoming the coach at MU?

Wojo has been the biggest bust of the wojo era

I said Harry. For me it can't be Joe Chartouny because he was only here for one year. That's an easily acceptable bust, compared to a Traci or Froling that we expected 3-4 years from.

Guys like Haanif, Henry, & Joey weren't busts. They didn't produce here like they could have, but they showed they were worth the scholarships. Traci was okay, but hasn't indicated he was a high major player. He was a bust, but not as much as Harry. Harry was clearly not a high major & was hyped like he was the next Ellenson. Higher expectations lead to being a bigger bust.

It might be Ike as he may never play.

I voted Haanif, because he started out good and disappeared. I did not vote Froling, because he was a transfer. Transfers are basically someone who falls into your lap. Wojo worked hard to recruit Haanif and brag at how high Haanif's basketball IQ was.

$hit like this is why society is stupid.

Four of the six options wouldn't remotely be considered a bust to a rational human being.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on June 09, 2019, 11:49:15 AM
$hit like this is why society is stupid.

Four of the six options wouldn't remotely be considered a bust to a rational human being.

Yep. Only Joe C and Harry were busts. The others were good players who left to play elsewhere for various reasons.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on June 09, 2019, 11:49:15 AM
$hit like this is why society is stupid.

Four of the six options wouldn't remotely be considered a bust to a rational human being.

Four of the six wouldn't remotely be considered a bust for a small time program...like a DePaul or something, you're right. But for a program like MU?? Didn't meet expectations...or maybe more accurately, should have never been recruited to a level like MU.

Quote from: muguru on June 09, 2019, 07:39:12 AM
Can the answer be...Wojo himself??  8-)

I swear to God.  As soon as I saw this thread, I thought: "I wonder if Willie or guru writes in Wojo."

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 09, 2019, 09:23:54 AM
I said Harry. For me it can't be Joe Chartouny because he was only here for one year. That's an easily acceptable bust, compared to a Traci or Froling that we expected 3-4 years from.

Guys like Haanif, Henry, & Joey weren't busts. They didn't produce here like they could have, but they showed they were worth the scholarships. Traci was okay, but hasn't indicated he was a high major player. He was a bust, but not as much as Harry. Harry was clearly not a high major & was hyped like he was the next Ellenson. Higher expectations lead to being a bigger bust.

I had to go with Traci.  What has the team most consistency lacked over the past four years?  Quality PG play.

Carter was not a bust.  He was a stopgap after Noskowiak went off the rails.  Wojo took a chance because there wasn't much available in the spring PG class.  Wojo quickly pivoted to get Rowsey and then Howard.

Quote from: 4everCrean on June 09, 2019, 12:57:18 PM
I swear to God.  As soon as I saw this thread, I thought: "I wonder if Willie or guru writes in Wojo."

I actually voted for Harry...but Wojo HAS to be considered, doesn't he??  :P

Quote from: muguru on June 09, 2019, 11:57:00 AM
Four of the six wouldn't remotely be considered a bust for a small time program...like a DePaul or something, you're right. But for a program like MU?? Didn't meet expectations...or maybe more accurately, should have never been recruited to a level like MU.

Henry -an NBA playet
Joey - MSU player

"busts" for Marquette. "k"

That Howard guy sucks.

And another vote for Harry. If I had played CBB, I would have been a smaller version of Harry, totally confused by the speed of the game.

Quote from: #UnleashCain on June 09, 2019, 01:38:53 PM
Henry -an NBA playet
Joey - MSU player

"busts" for Marquette. "k"

Where in god's name did I say those two were busts for MU?? Good god do people like to read into things i say without actually paying attention..?? Guys like Carter, Cheatham, etc, now that's who I'm referring too..should have never been/busts for a program like MU. Want proof?? What schools did they end up at after leaving MU?? Low Mid majors..nuff said.

Everybody who wasn't/isn't as good as Dwyane Wade = automatic bust. And obviously Wojo himself; worst coach in college hoops history.

Hell, guru and willie haven't seen this many busts since their days as porn stars.

Quote from: MU82 on June 09, 2019, 02:23:35 PM
Everybody who wasn't/isn't as good as Dwyane Wade = automatic bust. And obviously Wojo himself; worst coach in college hoops history.

Hell, guru and willie haven't seen this many busts since their days as porn stars.

I will say...if you're going to be a bust..my preference is that you're a BIG bust, as opposed to a small bust. Because if you're going to bust..I'd rather go big.  ;D

Quote from: muguru on June 09, 2019, 02:06:49 PM
Where in god's name did I say those two were busts for MU?? Good god do people like to read into things i say without actually paying attention..?? Guys like Carter, Cheatham, etc, now that's who I'm referring too..should have never been/busts for a program like MU. Want proof?? What schools did they end up at after leaving MU?? Low Mid majors..nuff said.

Haanif averaged nearly 12 a game and is transferring to Nebraska. While not a big time program it's not a mid major.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 09, 2019, 02:55:48 PM
Haanif averaged nearly 12 a game and is transferring to Nebraska. While not a big time program it's not a mid major.

After transferring to FCGU after MU. Sandy transferred to UWGB, Traci transferred to LaSalle, Chartouney transferred FROM Fordham(though to be fair, pretty much everyone thought he'd be better). But, the point is, the players that transferred from MU, at least on the list above, transferred to low mid majors. Doesn't that tell you they probably should have never been recruited to MU to begin with?? Sure, every Coach misses, it happened to Buzz, Crean, Izzo etc.

Quote from: muguru on June 09, 2019, 04:16:13 PM
After transferring to FCGU after MU. Sandy transferred to UWGB, Traci transferred to LaSalle, Chartouney transferred FROM Fordham(though to be fair, pretty much everyone thought he'd be better). But, the point is, the players that transferred from MU, at least on the list above, transferred to low mid majors. Doesn't that tell you they probably should have never been recruited to MU to begin with?? Sure, every Coach misses, it happened to Buzz, Crean, Izzo etc.

Dude I'm in agreement with you about the rest of them. Just saying Haanif did very well his freshman year and people were concerned he'd go pro early after that. He's also an example of those top 100s you want so many of

A bust award should be named after Froling. What a total stiff. How he could possibly earn a tryout before NBA talent evaluators is beyond me.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 09, 2019, 04:18:53 PM
Dude I'm in agreement with you about the rest of them. Just saying Haanif did very well his freshman year and people were concerned he'd go pro early after that. He's also an example of those top 100s you want so many of

Well, i'd rather MU not have to make a living in the low top 100's consistently. I realize it is what it is, but the bust factor is higher when you have to live that way..However, say for example, you can pull in a top 25 kid sometimes..THEN maybe it's not so bad if you get another low 100, because that top 25 kid, should offset it IF that low top 100 kid busts. Again, it is what it is right now, and hopefully in the near future things will break MU's way more. It's not a perfect science for any coach.

People were talking about Haanif making a run at Jerel's scoring record. He likely would've at least been a regular starter as a sophomore and it's pretty easy to imagine him at least maintaining a row similar to what Sacar became.

He transferred to a smaller school to be close to home but once eligible had no trouble finding a high major home. He'll likely end up scoring 1,000+ points, getting 400+ rebounds, & 200+ assists. Maybe not the stud we hoped for, but definitely a solid career.

Joe won SOTG twice, even more meaningful  in that he achieved it in a year when we had Markus and Sam. That should automatically disqualify him from the Bust list.

There is only one bust, not his fault, but a player that has been on scholarship for 2 years,  zero points and zero minutes.  That to me is the ultimate wasted scholarship.

Quote from: BCHoopster on June 09, 2019, 07:25:58 PM
There is only one bust, not his fault, but a player that has been on scholarship for 2 years,  zero points and zero minutes.  That to me is the ultimate wasted scholarship.

Hard to label anyone a bust with (likely) 4 years of eligibility left.

And who has been sidelined by injury.

How is heldt not on this list? Cohen and Hannif are lightyears better. unless you take transferring into account or something.

Heldt was nowhere near a bust.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 09, 2019, 08:46:53 PM
Heldt was nowhere near a bust.

no where near? ur crazy. I like the kid a lot, but he played like a 2 star. He was a top 100 recruit according to some sites and he was just flat out bad.

Quote from: Johnny B on June 09, 2019, 08:53:38 PM
no where near? ur crazy. I like the kid a lot, but he played like a 2 star. He was a top 100 recruit according to some sites and he was just flat out bad.

Yeah that's not a "bust."  He was also not "flat out bad." 

Other than that, great point.  ::)

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 09, 2019, 09:03:14 PM
Yeah that's not a "bust."  He was also not "flat out bad." 

Other than that, great point.  ::)

guess it depends on someone's definition of "bust". But honestly he was pretty bad. Can you name a different scholarship player over the last 5 years or so that was clearly worse? If youre being honest, I don't think you can

Quote from: Johnny B on June 09, 2019, 09:11:21 PM
guess it depends on someone's definition of "bust". But honestly he was pretty bad. Can you name a different scholarship player over the last 5 years or so that was clearly worse? If youre being honest, I don't think you can

Four year recruits, Carter is obvious. Transfers, Chartouny is obvious. Then of course there's Gabe Levin & Ike Eke who to date have literally done nothing on the court for MU.

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 09, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
Four year recruits, Carter is obvious. Transfers, Chartouny is obvious. Then of course there's Gabe Levin & Ike Eke who to date have literally done nothing on the court for MU.

Carter was not "obviously" worse than Heldt.  Carter wasn't a high major starter, but he would've been a huge upgrade from, say, Derrick Wilson on that 2012-13 Elite 8 team.  There were even people on here who were (probably only half) jokingly calling Traci a "recruiting miss" for Jay Wright when he got a technical for jawing at the Nova bench in Philly.

Post-2000, I think our worst four year players who've stayed all four years have been Chris Grimm, Derrick, and Heldt.  I know Traci didn't stay all four years, but he was way better than all those guys.

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 09, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
Four year recruits, Carter is obvious. Transfers, Chartouny is obvious. Then of course there's Gabe Levin & Ike Eke who to date have literally done nothing on the court for MU.

Id take carter over heldt. Joe C probably on the same level as heldt, not clearly worse. And the other.. Ike has been injured so how can we know if hes worse than heldt? He doesn't apply to my question. And TBH I have no idea who gabe Levin is, but since he didn't set foot on the court for MU ever he doesn't really apply either.

Quote from: Johnny B on June 09, 2019, 09:28:57 PM
Id take carter over heldt. Joe C probably on the same level as heldt, not clearly worse. And the other.. Ike has been injured so how can we know if hes worse than heldt? He doesn't apply to my question. And TBH I have no idea who gabe Levin is, but since he didn't set foot on the court for MU ever he doesn't really apply either.

Gabe was technically Wojos first recruit. A very desirable transfer we beat Notre Dame for . He signed showed up at campus and then left. Ended up having a very solid career at Long Beach State.

My vote is for Joey. He got his feelings hurt and played a big role in the late season collapse then quit on his team and took his brother with him.
Would have been so much better if he never cane in the first place.

Quote from: muguru on June 09, 2019, 04:16:13 PM
After transferring to FCGU after MU. Sandy transferred to UWGB, Traci transferred to LaSalle, Chartouney transferred FROM Fordham(though to be fair, pretty much everyone thought he'd be better). But, the point is, the players that transferred from MU, at least on the list above, transferred to low mid majors. Doesn't that tell you they probably should have never been recruited to MU to begin with?? Sure, every Coach misses, it happened to Buzz, Crean, Izzo etc.

Well, my friend, if it makes you happy, Sam and Joey transferred to high-majors!

5 years, zero NCAA wins. 

Hmmmm

Wojo?

Quote from: The Lens on June 09, 2019, 10:59:37 PM
5 years, zero NCAA wins. 

Hmmmm

Wojo?

Things are looking somewhat bright going forward no?

Bust is of course relative to expectations, otherwise it would be a "Worst Player of the Wojo Era" poll.

While I don't think it is Hank, I'd say it's reasonable to argue he was a bust RTE. He was billed as a potential lottery pick. I'm sure there are some examples otherwise, but my guess is the VAST majority of teams with a lottery pick end up in the NCAA. He wasn't and we didn't. Sure he was the best player on the team that year, but he and the season could have been much better.

Quote from: 1SE on June 09, 2019, 11:20:23 PM
Bust is of course relative to expectations, otherwise it would be a "Worst Player of the Wojo Era" poll.

While I don't think it is Hank, I'd say it's reasonable to argue he was a bust RTE. He was billed as a potential lottery pick. I'm sure there are some examples otherwise, but my guess is the VAST majority of teams with a lottery pick end up in the NCAA. He wasn't and we didn't. Sure he was the best player on the team that year, but he and the season could have been much better.

he was a lottery pic. NVM close though

I voted for Haanif. Perhaps it is because his upside potential was so great. But he left after two years. He and Henry would have been an awesome pair had they stayed another year or two.

It is hard for me to consider Ike a bust. Given his injury and a compassionate nature, I'd prefer to think of him as the jury is still out.

Harry wasn't a bust because there was never much there.

I was tempted to vote for Henry because he could not harness the raw talent he had to make us better and stronger. He also needed at least one and probably two more years in college to refine his game and learn to play within a system. 

Quote from: 1SE on June 09, 2019, 11:20:23 PM
Bust is of course relative to expectations, otherwise it would be a "Worst Player of the Wojo Era" poll.

While I don't think it is Hank, I'd say it's reasonable to argue he was a bust RTE. He was billed as a potential lottery pick. I'm sure there are some examples otherwise, but my guess is the VAST majority of teams with a lottery pick end up in the NCAA. He wasn't and we didn't. Sure he was the best player on the team that year, but he and the season could have been much better.

Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz both went #1 in the draft.  Both failed to make the NCAA tournament.   It's a team game.

Quote from: Research Report on June 09, 2019, 09:21:11 PM
Carter was not "obviously" worse than Heldt. 

Of course he was.  Carter couldn't even hang at the A10 level and is now at Hartford in the American East.  I honestly don't get people's love for Traci.  He wasn't very good.

Quote from: Johnny B on June 09, 2019, 09:11:21 PM
guess it depends on someone's definition of "bust". But honestly he was pretty bad. Can you name a different scholarship player over the last 5 years or so that was clearly worse? If youre being honest, I don't think you can

Traci Carter
Ike Eke
Harry Froling
Sandy Cohen

I will also say that Heldt performed better than Cain or Bailey have to date, but I fully expect those two to be well beyond him after this year.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 10, 2019, 07:34:55 AM

Of course he was.  Carter couldn't even hang at the A10 level and is now at Hartford in the American East.

I don't think Carter was a bus, he did make a bad decision though. He was making solid progress at MU. If he would have stayed the course he would have been a consistent contributor. Also not fair to say he couldn't hang at the A 10 level, he just played on a lousy team. From his Bio from last season:

Played in all 31 games for the Explorers, making 30 starts... Led team with 101 assists (3.3 apg) and 57 steals (1.8 spg)... Averaged 6.4 points per contest... Shot 83.9 percent from the free-throw line... Had seven games in which he scored 10 or more points... Broke out for career-high 24 points in home win over Davidson, going 9-of-11 from the floor and a perfect 4-for-4 from three-point range... Had 18 points in rivalry win over St. Joe's... Scored 17 points and added eight assists at The Palestra against No. 23 Villanova... Eight assists were a season high... Pilfered five steals against Bucknell and had four in games against Temple and Fordham.

Quote from: The Lens on June 09, 2019, 10:59:37 PM
5 years, zero NCAA wins. 

Hmmmm

Wojo?

5 years, one NCAA win.

Hmmmm

Cooley?

Quote from: Johnny B on June 09, 2019, 11:35:38 PM
he was a lottery pic. NVM close though

He was not a lottery pick. Henry was picked 18th. That is not the lottery.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on June 10, 2019, 09:07:33 AM
5 years, one NCAA win.

Hmmmm

Cooley?

In his first five years, Cooley made the NCAA Tournament three times, more than Wojo has, and, as you just stated, he had more NCAA wins in that span than Wojo.

I'm not one of those people on here who loves Cooley, but he did objectively better in his first five years than Wojo's done, and Cooley coaches at a worse program.

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 09:23:09 AM
In his first five years, Cooley made the NCAA Tournament three times, more than Wojo has, and, as you just stated, he had more NCAA wins in that span than Wojo.

I'm not one of those people on here who loves Cooley, but he did objectively better in his first five years than Wojo's done, and Cooley coaches at a worse program.

I agree with this analysis.

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 09:23:09 AM
In his first five years, Cooley made the NCAA Tournament three times, more than Wojo has, and, as you just stated, he had more NCAA wins in that span than Wojo.

Wrong.  Cooley had zero NCAA tournaments his first SEVEN years.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/ed-cooley-1.html

Quote from: rocky_warrior on June 10, 2019, 11:22:22 AM
Wrong.  Cooley had zero NCAA tournaments his first SEVEN years.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/ed-cooley-1.html

The post I quoted and responded to said Cooley had one NCAA tournament win in five years.  I assumed that poster was referring to his time at Providence.  When I reread my post, I thought about editing it to state "in his first five years at Providence" but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.  Thanks for proving me wrong!

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 11:51:25 AM
The post I quoted and responded to said Cooley had one NCAA tournament win in five years.  I assumed that poster was referring to his time at Providence.  When I reread my post, I thought about editing it to state "in his first five years at Providence" but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.  Thanks for proving me wrong!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mxKdIoeskbqE/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 11:51:25 AM
I thought about editing it to state "in his first five years at Providence"

You should have.

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 11:51:25 AM
but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.

I like to keep coaching comparison's sane.  If we compare first 5 years of "other" coaches, lets look at their first 5 years as a D1 head coach.  Mmkay?

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on June 10, 2019, 09:07:33 AM
5 years, one NCAA win.

Hmmmm

Cooley?

My gosh. Is Providence what we're shooting for?

YIKES!!!!!

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 11:51:25 AM
The post I quoted and responded to said Cooley had one NCAA tournament win in five years.  I assumed that poster was referring to his time at Providence.  When I reread my post, I thought about editing it to state "in his first five years at Providence" but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.  Thanks for proving me wrong!

It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 10, 2019, 08:16:07 PM
It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.

If we could swap coaches with Providence, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Went with Chartouney, just because he was so annoying.

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 10, 2019, 08:16:07 PM
It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.

Again, I was just responding to a poster who used "5 years" when talking about Cooley.  If you want to say that it's important for a head coach to cut his teeth at a smaller school before taking a bigger job, I won't disagree with that.  Even Buzz had that year at UNO before coming to MU.  However, O'Neill and Crean did better than Wojo their first five years and they had no prior head coaching experience. 

I once attended a seminar where a hiring manager at a big company spoke and said that their philosophy when hiring people was, "No projects."  They only hired people who were ready to hit the ground running, regardless of experience.  MU is at a level in college basketball, at least in terms of budget and resources, where this should be their philosophy.  O'Neill and Crean fit that "no project" mold.  They were ready for the big time.  Wojo, so far, has shown that he's not. 

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 09:44:26 PM
Again, I was just responding to a poster who used "5 years" when talking about Cooley.  If you want to say that it's important for a head coach to cut his teeth at a smaller school before taking a bigger job, I won't disagree with that.  Even Buzz had that year at UNO before coming to MU.  However, O'Neill and Crean did better than Wojo their first five years and they had no prior head coaching experience. 

I once attended a seminar where a hiring manager at a big company spoke and said that their philosophy when hiring people was, "No projects."  They only hired people who were ready to hit the ground running, regardless of experience.  MU is at a level in college basketball, at least in terms of budget and resources, where this should be their philosophy.  O'Neill and Crean fit that "no project" mold.  They were ready for the big time.  Wojo, so far, has shown that he's not.

At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

Quote from: MU82 on June 10, 2019, 09:56:16 PM
At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

Pretty simple actually. You travel forward in time by about 5-6 years. Read the internet. Travel back in time and make the right decision. Repeat across multiple timelines if necessary.

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 10, 2019, 08:16:07 PM
It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.

K coached at Army, Wright at Fairfield. "Success" there is relative, coaching at either place  (for a coach with ambitions) is an audition. By UMASS standards, Cal had mega success. Ol' Roy had big success at KU.

Quote from: forgetful on June 10, 2019, 10:02:48 PM
Pretty simple actually. You travel forward in time by about 5-6 years. Read the internet. Travel back in time and make the right decision. Repeat across multiple timelines if necessary.

Great way to beat the bookies and the stock market.

Quote from: MU82 on June 10, 2019, 09:56:16 PM
At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

That's a great question, and I'm not sure I have an answer.  I think it was Goose who said that the O'Neill and Crean hires happened largely because of outside influences who were in Bill Cords' ear.  I don't have any info beyond that, but whoever those influences were, they obviously knew what to look for, and the results show it. 

A question that's often asked on here is, "Well, if you didn't want Wojo, who would you have hired instead?"  But really, that's not our job to know.  It's the person doing the hiring's job to find the right candidate, not just out of the big names but the thousands of coaches out there who might be diamonds in the rough.  Chris Beard was coaching in Division II at the time of Wojo's hiring.  It would've taken someone really savvy with their ear to the ground to find him, but if we'd offered him the job, I'm guessing he would've taken it.  That's a very extreme scenario, but with some great good luck, it's not out of the question. 

Now, in the fictional scenario where we hired Beard, the next argument would be, "But MU fans would revolt if we hired someone with Beard's resume."  Well, we'd done it before with Crean, O'Neill, and Buzz, and their success shut people up.

Quote from: The Lens on June 09, 2019, 10:59:37 PM
5 years, zero NCAA wins. 

Hmmmm

Wojo?

I thought it was Coach K, but I was wrong...he had 1 NCAA win in 5 years at Duke after zero wins in five years at his first D1 job....one NCAA win in 10 years.


Lenny, pivoting to you.  When these young coaches have a chance to stub their toe at Army, Lehigh, Fairfield, Hofstra, Oral Roberts, Tulsa, etc, etc, it gives them the opportunity to screwup and not under the glaring lights.  How to organize, run a team, deal with media, deal with recruiting, administration, etc.  HUGE benefit to doing that not at a high major. HUGE.

Quote from: MU82 on June 10, 2019, 09:56:16 PM
At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

I'd say the track record of Duke assistants who become head coaches cast doubt on Wojo, whereas Crean was instrumental in the success at multiple programs and was Izzo's right hand guy on the 1999 Final Four team. I remember being in the BC during the first two rounds and seeing Crean up on the sidelines barking out instructions almost as much as Izzo.

Quote from: Research Report on June 10, 2019, 10:57:59 PM
That's a great question, and I'm not sure I have an answer.  I think it was Goose who said that the O'Neill and Crean hires happened largely because of outside influences who were in Bill Cords' ear.  I don't have any info beyond that, but whoever those influences were, they obviously knew what to look for, and the results show it. 

A question that's often asked on here is, "Well, if you didn't want Wojo, who would you have hired instead?"  But really, that's not our job to know.  It's the person doing the hiring's job to find the right candidate, not just out of the big names but the thousands of coaches out there who might be diamonds in the rough.  Chris Beard was coaching in Division II at the time of Wojo's hiring.  It would've taken someone really savvy with their ear to the ground to find him, but if we'd offered him the job, I'm guessing he would've taken it.  That's a very extreme scenario, but with some great good luck, it's not out of the question. 

Now, in the fictional scenario where we hired Beard, the next argument would be, "But MU fans would revolt if we hired someone with Beard's resume."  Well, we'd done it before with Crean, O'Neill, and Buzz, and their success shut people up.

Agree with the "it's not our job" line. Of course, we try to make it our job 'round these parts!

When is the last time a major program hired a D2 coach? Fun to speculate about somebody like Beard but it simply wasn't going to happen -- at Marquette or anywhere else -- so it's a little silly.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 10, 2019, 11:27:16 PM
I'd say the track record of Duke assistants who become head coaches cast doubt on Wojo, whereas Crean was instrumental in the success at multiple programs and was Izzo's right hand guy on the 1999 Final Four team. I remember being in the BC during the first two rounds and seeing Crean up on the sidelines barking out instructions almost as much as Izzo.

So you pass on a potentially great coach because of a ho-hum history of Duke assistants? Not saying that's Wojo, but it could be Scheyer or somebody else. Seems a crazy way to evaluate somebody.

Quote from: forgetful on June 10, 2019, 10:02:48 PM
Pretty simple actually. You travel forward in time by about 5-6 years. Read the internet. Travel back in time and make the right decision. Repeat across multiple timelines if necessary.

Damn ... why didn't I think of that?

Quote from: Cheeks on June 10, 2019, 11:19:36 PM
When these young coaches have a chance to stub their toe at Army, Lehigh, Fairfield, Hofstra, Oral Roberts, Tulsa, etc, etc, it gives them the opportunity to screwup and not under the glaring lights.  How to organize, run a team, deal with media, deal with recruiting, administration, etc.  HUGE benefit to doing that not at a high major. HUGE.

I generally agree with this notion, but there also have been many long-time assistants who have done quite well without that benefit. Izzo, Williams, Crean, Painter, Fisher, Stevens, etc.

Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2019, 06:21:00 AM
When is the last time a major program hired a D2 coach?

Kim Anderson at Missouri.  It was a disaster.

UWGB hired the hottest D2 coach around, Linc Darner, and while he's been good, he's not banging on the doors of any high major jobs.

Quote from: brewcity77 on June 09, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
Four year recruits, Carter is obvious. Transfers, Chartouny is obvious. Then of course there's Gabe Levin & Ike Eke who to date have literally done nothing on the court for MU.

I was not following recruiting much back then (still don't). What is the stroy with Gabe Levin? I honestly did not know he was on campus at all.

Quote from: lawdog77 on June 11, 2019, 08:20:42 AM
I was not following recruiting much back then (still don't). What is the stroy with Gabe Levin? I honestly did not know he was on campus at all.

Got recruited over in the form of Henry Ellenson IIRC

Quote from: 1SE on June 09, 2019, 12:57:03 AM

For my money it's Joe. Had he put in 15-20 solid PG min this year then 1) Everyone not so gassed at end of year 2) Markus plays more off the ball 3) which maybe means Hausers don't lose heart and stick around.

The grad transfer route is always an unknown.   Chartouny didn't play up to fans expectations.  Probably not up to those of the coaching staff either.

The consensus top grad transfer guard last season was Joe Cremo.  Cremo had averaged 18.4 points a game on over 45% shooting from three for Albany.  Jay Wright apparently found the guy that would step in and lessen the loss of the four guys that left Nova for the NBA.

However, he proved to be anything but that down the stretch.    Even with Quinerly flopping out of the rotation, over the last five games of the season (BEast tourney and NCAA), Cremo averaged 5.6 minutes a game.   Without scoring a point over his final six.

Quote from: lawdog77 on June 11, 2019, 08:20:42 AM
I was not following recruiting much back then (still don't). What is the stroy with Gabe Levin? I honestly did not know he was on campus at all.

had a girlfriend back west. Also between him leaving and Kyle Washington backing off it seems like a lot of people expected Henry to stay at least two years.

Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2019, 06:21:00 AM

So you pass on a potentially great coach because of a ho-hum history of Duke assistants? Not saying that's Wojo, but it could be Scheyer or somebody else. Seems a crazy way to evaluate somebody.

You don't pass, but you look at how well prepared they are for the job.  There are so many advantages that Duke has that it makes it difficult for guys trained in the Duke system to adjust. You don't recruit at Duke, you choose. And it seems Coach K gives less responsibility to his assistants than other coaches do. I don't know what was in the magical Wojo PowerPoint that put him over the top in the search but if it was "this is what we did at Duke and this is what we'll do here" then that should give a hiring committee pause. 

Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 11, 2019, 09:35:35 AM
had a girlfriend back west. Also between him leaving and Kyle Washington backing off it seems like a lot of people expected Henry to stay at least two years.

there was much more than that.  It was a cultural fit.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 11, 2019, 11:39:20 AM
You don't pass, but you look at how well prepared they are for the job.  There are so many advantages that Duke has that it makes it difficult for guys trained in the Duke system to adjust. You don't recruit at Duke, you choose. And it seems Coach K gives less responsibility to his assistants than other coaches do. I don't know what was in the magical Wojo PowerPoint that put him over the top in the search but if it was "this is what we did at Duke and this is what we'll do here" then that should give a hiring committee pause.

Sure, this is right. And I'm guessing that Wojo convinced the powers that be that he was well-prepared for the job.

Brey has been pretty darn good for a really long time at ND after 9 years as K's assistant. Amaker was in over his head at Michigan but he has settled in very nicely at Harvard. So, with Brey especially, one can always find an exception to the "rule."

I like my chances a lot more with K's top assistant than with some D2 guy, but that's just me.

Some here think dozens of high-major coaches will come running for the job after Wojo leaves. Holding out hope for Bennett!

Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2019, 11:47:14 AM
Sure, this is right. And I'm guessing that Wojo convinced the powers that be that he was well-prepared for the job.

Brey has been pretty darn good for a really long time at ND after 9 years as K's assistant. Amaker was in over his head at Michigan but he has settled in very nicely at Harvard. So, with Brey especially, one can always find an exception to the "rule."

I like my chances a lot more with K's top assistant than with some D2 guy, but that's just me.

Some here think dozens of high-major coaches will come running for the job after Wojo leaves. Holding out hope for Bennett!

Bray was a little different based on the timing of his tenure at Duke and his success at Delaware. His successor, another Duke assistant, flopped big time (David Henderson).

I don't think I'd touch a D2 guy. Give me a good mid-major D1 head coach who's had success and multiple NCAA tournament appearances.

Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2019, 11:47:14 AM
Sure, this is right. And I'm guessing that Wojo convinced the powers that be that he was well-prepared for the job.

Brey has been pretty darn good for a really long time at ND after 9 years as K's assistant. Amaker was in over his head at Michigan but he has settled in very nicely at Harvard. So, with Brey especially, one can always find an exception to the "rule."

I like my chances a lot more with K's top assistant than with some D2 guy, but that's just me.

Some here think dozens of high-major coaches will come running for the job after Wojo leaves. Holding out hope for Bennett!

Billy beat me to it, but I was going to point out that Brey did have that five year "audition" period at Delaware where he had to learn to recruit and win with players who Duke most certainly would not bat an eye at.  For a Duke assistant, perhaps that's the best route.  Wojo stayed at Duke a *long* time before leaving the nest.  That might've been to his detriment.

I agree that a DII guy would be a stretch for a school like Marquette.  Just threw out an extreme example, and like Fluffy said, other, smaller schools have gone that route with mixed results. 

Wojo was absolutely a safe hire for Marquette.  Everything about it looked great on paper, and his Duke pedigree has likely bought him more patience with fans and the administration.  So, too, has his lack of experience as a head coach, as the argument can be made that he's learning on the job, even though he's been coaching at the DI level in one position or another for 20 years.  MU's best head coaching hires have not been the safe ones.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 11, 2019, 12:32:20 PM
Bray was a little different based on the timing of his tenure at Duke and his success at Delaware. His successor, another Duke assistant, flopped big time (David Henderson).

I don't think I'd touch a D2 guy. Give me a good mid-major D1 head coach who's had success and multiple NCAA tournament appearances.

Two of Marquette's best coaches post-Al have been assistants from other programs where Marquette was their first coaching gig.  Their mid-major coaching hires weren't great.

You hire the best person for the job based on the criteria you lay out in the beginning.  Wojo has been a C+/B- hire so far.  He has done some good things, but hasn't done others.  I don't think he's been a bad hire, but I don't think he's been a great one by any means.

Quote from: Research Report on June 11, 2019, 12:54:31 PM
Billy beat me to it, but I was going to point out that Brey did have that five year "audition" period at Delaware where he had to learn to recruit and win with players who Duke most certainly would not bat an eye at.  For a Duke assistant, perhaps that's the best route.  Wojo stayed at Duke a *long* time before leaving the nest.  That might've been to his detriment.

I agree that a DII guy would be a stretch for a school like Marquette.  Just threw out an extreme example, and like Fluffy said, other, smaller schools have gone that route with mixed results. 

Wojo was absolutely a safe hire for Marquette.  Everything about it looked great on paper, and his Duke pedigree has likely bought him more patience with fans and the administration.  So, too, has his lack of experience as a head coach, as the argument can be made that he's learning on the job, even though he's been coaching at the DI level in one position or another for 20 years.  MU's best head coaching hires have not been the safe ones.

Wojo was also rated the #2 or #3 assistant in the country.  Safe may be the word, but also consider d a smart hire if going down that route of assistant coach.  Safe would be going with an internal assistant so as not to rock the apple cart.....we didn't do that...thankfully.

On the Duke pedigree thing. I am sure it bought him some patience with some fans and some members of the administration. But I've felt for awhile that one of the reasons many have been quick to dismiss Wojo is because of his Duke pedigree. Doubly so because I feel like Wojo was one of the more hated Dukies when he was on the court.

Quote from: Cheeks on June 11, 2019, 11:34:06 PM
Wojo was also rated the #2 or #3 assistant in the country.  Safe may be the word, but also consider d a smart hire if going down that route of assistant coach.  Safe would be going with an internal assistant so as not to rock the apple cart.....we didn't do that...thankfully.

Do you remember who #1 and/or #2 was?

Quote from: Cheeks on June 11, 2019, 11:34:06 PM
Wojo was also rated the #2 or #3 assistant in the country.  Safe may be the word, but also consider d a smart hire if going down that route of assistant coach.  Safe would be going with an internal assistant so as not to rock the apple cart.....we didn't do that...thankfully.

I have not been a flag waver for Wojo, but I would say that if you were going for an external assistant, you couldn't have made a better bet.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 12, 2019, 12:10:17 PM
I have not been a flag waver for Wojo, but I would say that if you were going for an external assistant, you couldn't have made a better bet.

At the time, I wrote an article for Cracked Sidewalks about potential external assistant hires. I didn't include Wojo because I thought it was aiming too high.

Quote from: swoopem on June 12, 2019, 11:02:56 AM
Do you remember who #1 and/or #2 was?

Back in the day, Joe Dooley was 1, Wojo 2, Gard 3.  That was one list.  There were others.

There used to be an award that went out to the top assistant coach, KO won it.  Not sure if that award still exists

Quote from: Cheeks on June 12, 2019, 02:52:54 PM
Back in the day, Joe Dooley was 1, Wojo 2, Gard 3.  That was one list.  There were others.

There used to be an award that went out to the top assistant coach, KO won it.  Not sure if that award still exists

Never heard of Joe Dooley

here's a list with Joe Dooley at Kansas first, Wojo second and Gard third, Hopkins at Syracuse fourth.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1155271-the-15-best-assistant-coaches-in-college-basketball

Dooley took the head job at Florida Gulf Coast.  Two NCAA's, two NIT's in five years and he moved to East Carolina last season.

Quote from: swoopem on June 12, 2019, 04:08:39 PM
Never heard of Joe Dooley

Great assistant. Was a head coach at East Carolina. Later spent 10 years at Kansas and earned the HC job at FGCU when Andy Enfield left. Went to the NCAA tournament twice & NIT twice in 5 years. Took over ECU again last year.

Sandy