Hello, all.
I'm a journalist and author out of MU, and I skulk around this board keeping tabs on everything hoops. Meanwhile, my work lives here...
http://www.johnscottlewinski.com
I'm working on a book regarding THIS topic...
https://medium.com/lug-magazine/the-cult-of-defense-56eb051b07f3
...And, I have a research question for Scoopers to consider. Please note this is ENTIRELY theoretical and not a hint at anything tangible. This is only "what if." No need to worry or speculate.
1) If criminal abuse along the lines of what we now know occurred at Penn State, MSU and Ohio State ever happened within the MU athletic program at any level, what would you do? Would you remain a devoted fan? Would you cancel your season tickets?
2) If you remain in the fold, why? Would you do anything or insist on any conditions in light of the offenses?
3) Would anything ever drive you away from your fandom or loyalty to MU?
Special thanks to anyone who goes to the trouble of replying. I have no preconceived notion of what these replies might be. If I placed this question in the incorrect place, apologies. If it must be moved, I understand. I just hope people see it.
Take care.
- John Scott Lewinski
For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 31, 2019, 02:49:11 PM
For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.
Same and wouldn't think twice about it either.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 31, 2019, 02:49:11 PM
For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.
So you don't go to church/temple/mosque? Your kids were never in the Scouts or sports organizations? You dropped out of the ADA? You don't vote? You don't go to the movies?
Fact is, bad people make good organizations bad.
I left the church.
I still shake my head when I see people wearing Penn State Football apparel.
The answer to the question is layered. Many of us have stayed in the Catholic Church. Many of us have left. I think there is an equivalency there and I think you have at least a partial answer. Remember, there were alleged sexual assaults at Marquette a few years ago. Not systemic like OSU, PSU, MSU. Student on student with alcohol and former relationships involved. That did not cause many to leave behind their MU fandom, but it did cost a lot of people their jobs and caused a complete rewriting of MU's policies.
Hell, Marquette survived Dahmer.
I see fans at those schools able to compartmentalize the actions of a few with the fans' love of the school sports teams. My best guess is if something long term and systemic was discovered at Marquette, there would be those who would give up their fandom. There are those who would compartmentalize their fandom for the basketball team away from the actions of a few bad people. Just like at the other schools.
A great topic. Thanks. And, learn to spell 'theoretical'.
You're a journalist, but you can't spell theoretical?
Two words
Notre Dame
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 31, 2019, 02:49:11 PM
For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.
Same. It kind of makes my brain hurt thinking about the amount of mental gymnastics it would take to remain a PSU fan after everything that went down.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 31, 2019, 03:10:27 PM
So you don't go to church/temple/mosque? Your kids were never in the Scouts or sports organizations? You dropped out of the ADA? You don't vote? You don't go to the movies?
Fact is, bad people make good organizations bad.
I've all but given up on the RCC in the last few years. I think it might be beyond redemption. I still consider myself catholic (small C), but not in any organized sense. I attend mass here and there. But my dollars go to other charitable organizations with more transparent and trustworthy governance. Donating to MU will probably be the closest I ever come to financially supporting Catholicism again.
For me, it would depend on if those responsible were still with the program and if they were, were they properly held accountable? I might stop watching games if current coaches or current players were involved and wouldn't watch again until they were held accountable. If leadership was involved, I would withhold my (very limited) financial support until they were held accountable. But if the offending parties were no longer present, I would probably continue to support the school but be vocal in my desire to have school take responsibility for past failings.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 31, 2019, 02:49:11 PM
For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.
I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with 4Never.
The only thing that would get me to come back is if they got rid of literally everyone even remotely involved or aware of the scandal and the coverup. The president, the BOD, the provost, the athletic director, all of the coaches, everyone. They would also have to permanently break ties with every booster and donor involved.
And regarding the other question, I don't attend church anymore. I consider myself a Catholic, but I can't support the current leadership structure. They would have to do the same thing I described above, which wouldn't leave enough people available to run the organization. Hmmm, maybe they should let women become priests to help....
There would be a long pause on my fandom. But once the admin were gone, players, coaches, etc I believe that I would return.
If I was a fan of the school and not an alum I'm unsure I'd return though.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 31, 2019, 06:51:11 PM
I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with 4Never.
The only thing that would get me to come back is if they got rid of literally everyone even remotely involved or aware of the scandal and the coverup. The president, the BOD, the provost, the athletic director, all of the coaches, everyone. They would also have to permanently break ties with every booster and donor involved.
Ditto. Some things are more important than wins and losses.
My honest answer is this:
I don't know.
I'd have to see what happened. I'd have to know if everybody involved had been purged. I'd have to judge if Marquette completely cleaned up the mess. And I'd have to then look inside myself to decide if I were satisfied enough with all of that to remain a fan of the basketball team.
The Catholic Church's atrocities go back decades and decades -- a history of abuse that dates back far longer and involves far more individuals than the cases at the institutions you mentioned. And, by many accounts, abuses are still going on to this day. Yet most of my Marquette brothers and sisters who frequent this site have not left the church. Even some who did break with the formal organization still consider themselves Catholic.
I am not here to judge them; goodness knows, I wouldn't want to be judged. I'm just saying that giving up something that one feels a strong part of is easier said (in a hypothetical situation) than done (in real life).
Hopefully, we'll never have to find out what all of us really would do.
It depends how deep, who is involved, etc. if it was one or two people, I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. If it is 20 or 30 people, includes the very top, etc, that's different.
I also think that those that say they would walk away may do so, but might also come back 10 or 20 years later....time heals many things. Procedures, processes, accountability, so on are put into,place to prevent repeats.
I believe the reverse questions for the author are appropriate. If the university or coaches, etc, did a bunch of crooked, slimy, BS crap but got people their beloved run and a national title only to have it come crashing down later, would it be worth it to them? Just win baby
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 31, 2019, 06:26:36 PM
For me, it would depend on if those responsible were still with the program and if they were, were they properly held accountable? I might stop watching games if current coaches or current players were involved and wouldn't watch again until they were held accountable. If leadership was involved, I would withhold my (very limited) financial support until they were held accountable. But if the offending parties were no longer present, I would probably continue to support the school but be vocal in my desire to have school take responsibility for past failings.
+1. While athletics or the RCC get the headlines, the justice (or lack of it) was handled exactly the the same in literally thousands of organizations. It's not these organizations that are necessarily bad, it was the complete lack or disregard of justice for the victims. But, that was the way things were handled or tolerated, with even nods from law enforcement.
Fortunately, the pendulum has swung hard toward the criminal or civil justice route, a route that was in existence for decades but was summarily ignored. Society is in a better place. If organizations haven't learned, they don't deserve our support. Let's not pretend it's only a few, though. It was pervasive.
1) isolated event that is well taken care of by administration I would have no issue remaining a fan and have already done so.
2) systemic problem with administration involved, I would be done until they cleaned house.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on May 31, 2019, 06:54:07 PM
There would be a long pause on my fandom. But once the admin were gone, players, coaches, etc I believe that I would return.
If I was a fan of the school and not an alum I'm unsure I'd return though.
This is about where I am. That said, in my limited experience with non-alum fans they have tended to care less about cura personalis and more about stacking up wins. Give the ones I know a year or two and a few NCAA runs and they'd be back.
I'd be gone as a fan with the only possibility of return after there was a complete removal of all administration, coaching, athletic department, etc... whether they were involved or not. Examples to support this:
- I have not been to or watched a professional baseball game since the 1994 baseball strike. Never thought those guys should have been so arrogant or the system so broken to allow the players to take a product away from the fans.
- I knew what was going on in RCC from about age 10. Multiple local parishes where I grew up were affected, multiple friends targeted. I went to MU because it was the best fit school for me but never got the RCC thing. Managed to take great courses on history of religion and Atheism for my mandatory religion credits and still enjoy the knowledge I gained in those courses. But not a Catholic.
- When businesses I invest in are found to be corrupt (Siemens, for example) I remove my investment.
So, I vote with my money, I vote with my feet, I vote with my viewership, and in the event the corruption was in MU athletics I'd behave the same way that I have with other, similar situations.
I reject the question ...
Who abandoned support of MU over the sexual assault allegations during the Buzz years? Answer ... no one. In fact, and some on this board, that are talking about their moral code in this very thread, got angry that the Chicago Tribune besmirched MU's reputation by publishing the allegations on page one.
It's how the world works ... both the abstract comments of absolute morality and the reality that most would accept any PR level of punishment as good enough and then "rally around the flag" and then watch MU basketball set attendance records.
Quote from: tower912 on May 31, 2019, 03:30:28 PM
The answer to the question is layered. Many of us have stayed in the Catholic Church. Many of us have left. I think there is an equivalency there and I think you have at least a partial answer. Remember, there were alleged sexual assaults at Marquette a few years ago. Not systemic like OSU, PSU, MSU. Student on student with alcohol and former relationships involved. That did not cause many to leave behind their MU fandom, but it did cost a lot of people their jobs and caused a complete rewriting of MU's policies.
Hell, Marquette survived Dahmer.
I see fans at those schools able to compartmentalize the actions of a few with the fans' love of the school sports teams. My best guess is if something long term and systemic was discovered at Marquette, there would be those who would give up their fandom. There are those who would compartmentalize their fandom for the basketball team away from the actions of a few bad people. Just like at the other schools.
A great topic. Thanks. And, learn to spell 'theoretical'.
He did spell it correctly in the body of the post. Message board spelling police, smh
Bad stuff happens. If an organization identifies it and them removes it with impunity and attempts to reach out and comfort and make good with any victims, then they have done exact what they should. Is it a shame, is it unfortnate? Yes. However, i cannot hold ill will towards an organization that does exactly what it should when it discovers a bad apple.
I reject the question part 2 ...
When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting? Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)
I remember the incident well. There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.
Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here? Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html
Quote from: silverback on May 31, 2019, 02:40:04 PM1) If criminal abuse along the lines of what we now know occurred at Penn State, MSU and Ohio State ever happened within the MU athletic program at any level, what would you do? Would you remain a devoted fan? Would you cancel your season tickets?
I've made an investment in good faith over the years with the tickets and donations I've made. While something like this would be foundation shaking, I also fully believe those responsible would be dismissed. I would keep season tickets, but instead of my current expenditure, would drop down to the minimum to keep points going for men's, women's, & B&G Fund donations.
Quote from: silverback on May 31, 2019, 02:40:04 PM2) If you remain in the fold, why? Would you do anything or insist on any conditions in light of the offenses?
The students going forward will still have needs that would be aided by my future donations. Provided the University makes right, or at least makes every effort to do so, I expect I would be back in the fold once they did. I'm not sure my insistances mean much, but cleaning up the problem, instituting safeguards to prevent reoccurrence, and a thorough effort to make whole any victims would be my requests.
Quote from: silverback on May 31, 2019, 02:40:04 PM3) Would anything ever drive you away from your fandom or loyalty to MU?
I don't know. Growing up, the Chicago Bears & the NFL were my favorite team/league. I walked away from watching & supporting that sport when they reinstated Michael Vick & I've stayed away. I don't watch the NFL and haven't knowingly spent a dollar that supported them since.
Marquette is different because it's a more personal connection & the needs of the students there won't go away. Terrible stuff in one department, even systemically across the University, won't lessen the needs the students have. The same needs I once had when I was there.
If I'm convinced the institution has become rotten to the core, as I was with the NFL (and their recent missteps have only reinforced my decision), & I was convinced my money would be misused, I would probably walk away, and it would have to be complete cold turkey. But the sports title I most long for is a Marquette NC, and walking away from that dream would be difficult.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 01, 2019, 05:22:58 AM
I reject the question part 2 ...
When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting? Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)
I remember the incident well. There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.
Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here? Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html
Wow that really is messed up. I had no idea that happened and thought the two 2010-11 assaults were the worst thing in program history.
Was there any eventual fallout from this?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 01, 2019, 05:22:58 AM
I reject the question part 2 ...
When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting? Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)
I remember the incident well. There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.
Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here? Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html
That was a much different era with regards to drunk driving and how colleges handled student athletes.
Heisie, these were episodic, not systemic. The question, as I understand it, is about widespread systemic issues, a la OSU, MSU, and PSU.
Quote from: tower912 on June 01, 2019, 07:02:08 AM
Heisie, these were episodic, not systemic. The question, as I understand it, is about widespread systemic issues, a la OSU, MSU, and PSU.
That's a really good point.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 01, 2019, 05:22:58 AM
I reject the question part 2 ...
When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting? Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)
I remember the incident well. There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.
Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here? Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html
I remember. I also remember that before this incident, Tom Copa had done some "Think Before You Drink" PSAs for local TV.
I don't recall that the girl died, and neither of the articles you posted said that either. Are you sure that happened?
And not that it wasn't a tragedy, but I wouldn't put the Tom Copa incident in the same category that Silverback is referring to. What he did was not a malicious act. It was an idiot college kid making a poor decision. He had been drinking and let other kids skitch on his truck in the snow. Some of you have boasted on this board about drunken college antics that were just as (or more) stupid; by sheer luck, they just didn't have the same tragic consequences.
Unlike the other stories brought up, there was no denial or cover-up by the either Tom or anyone in the administration. As I recall, he was appropriately and immediately contrite.
She eventually died. (As will we all). I don't remember the exact date, but I remember she lived in a vegetative state for over 20 years.
Quote from: tower912 on June 01, 2019, 07:49:32 AM
She eventually died. (As will we all). I don't remember the exact date, but I remember she lived in a vegetative state for over 20 years.
She died at age 44. As cynical as this sounds, if she had died immediately or within a short time of the incident, their may have been a different outcome for Copa and others.
On regards to #3
The only thing I could see myself not being an mu fan anymore is if wojo doesn't even make the nit and the board doesn't fire him. That to me would signal they no longer care about winning.
Quote from: Cheeks on June 01, 2019, 08:03:44 AM
She died at age 44. As cynical as this sounds, if she had died immediately or within a short time of the incident, their may have been a different outcome for Copa and others.
This is what I hate about American justice system. It's reactionary punishment instead of rehabilitation. He should not be charged with manslaughter because both he and the girl made stupid decisons
Quote from: #UnleashCain on June 01, 2019, 08:25:55 AM
On regards to #3
The only thing I could see myself not being an mu fan anymore is if wojo doesn't even make the nit and the board doesn't fire him. That to me would signal they no longer care about winning.
I don't think this is relevant to the topic at hand. Eventually we would have a new coach. This is more asking about, hypothetically, a campus wide molestation ring, rape cover-ups at an administrative level, experimental steroids being given to all the athletes across programs without their knowledge, something that is negative at a systemic level. We're not talking about one bad season in one sport.
Quote from: #UnleashCain on June 01, 2019, 08:29:42 AM
This is what I hate about American justice system. It's reactionary punishment instead of rehabilitation. He should not be charged with manslaughter because both he and the girl made stupid decisons
Burreffect
Not that simple.
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 01, 2019, 08:30:51 AM
I don't think this is relevant to the topic at hand. Eventually we would have a new coach. This is more asking about, hypothetically, a campus wide molestation ring, rape cover-ups at an administrative level, experimental steroids being given to all the athletes across programs without their knowledge, something that is negative at a systemic level. We're not talking about one bad season in one sport.
But im only not rooting for them if they show they no longer wish to win.
We can gut the system, fire everyone involved etc. Over a rape scandel. I will still root for those who come after as they had nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Cheeks on June 01, 2019, 08:34:20 AM
Burreffect
Not that simple.
So, what would the "effect" be today if a player beat their girlfriend in a dorm elevator, pummeled a fellow student in a bar, held a floor member by their ankles out a ten story dorm window, shoplifted during a road game, or stole money from a ATM?
Best comparison I can come up with is this. Arizona has been my 2nd favorite college basketball team for more than 30 years. With everything that's gone down there in the last 18 months or so, the recently-completed season saw me show easily by far the least amount of attention I've paid to the program in that time. That very likely won't change until Miller is gone. Now I can't say that'd carry over to MU because I like MU more (and a lot more in the last 18 months). I'd probably still pay attention to MU, but probably wouldn't go to as many games, and almost certainly wouldn't take my annual out-of-the-Midwest road trip to watch MU in some place like NYC or KC. I'd probably pay a lot more attention to the Bucks, the NFL and the NHL instead. Paid much more attention to Bucks games instead of Arizona games this past season as an example.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 01, 2019, 08:49:47 AM
So, what would the "effect" be today if a player beat their girlfriend in a dorm elevator, pummeled a fellow student in a bar, held a floor member by their ankles out a ten story dorm window, shoplifted during a road game, or stole money from a ATM?
Burreffect was UnleashCain's original name.
The examples you gave all happened at MU and other schools.....in my opinion the effect at a minimum should be dismissal from school and team, criminal prosecution if appropriate.
Quote from: Cheeks on June 01, 2019, 08:54:54 AM
Burreffect was UnleashCain's original name.
The examples you gave all happened at MU and other schools.....in my opinion the effect at a minimum should be dismissal from school and team, criminal prosecution if appropriate.
All were at Marquette. Three involved starters. All were prosecutable. None were. All were swept under the rug. Only one involved a dismissal. To the topic, where should our outrage lie?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 01, 2019, 09:08:15 AM
All were at Marquette. Three involved starters. All were prosecutable. None were. All were swept under the rug. Only one involved a dismissal. To the topic, where should our outrage lie?
Yes, aware all were at MU, and similar have happened elsewhere (eg UCLA shoplifting). There was some crazy crap that happened at IU that was swept under. At many places. In my opinion I use the common sense filter. If my kid was the one dangled 10 stories, I'd want justice. If my kid were doing the stealing from an ATM, I would expect they would be prosecuted. Different justice system is already a problem in this country for race, class, age, etc....no different if you get special treatment because you can put a leather globe through an 18" hole. It is why people do get outraged because they know if they were in that situation they are fucked.
How about a university that had an athlete who raped a woman. Alum and other representatives harassed the woman relentlessly. The athlete was never held accountable. The woman committed suicide.
In their eyes, they are God's team. To the rest of the world, they simply suck.
Quote from: silverback on May 31, 2019, 02:40:04 PM
Hello, all.
I'm a journalist and author out of MU, and I skulk around this board keeping tabs on everything hoops. Meanwhile, my work lives here...
http://www.johnscottlewinski.com
I'm working on a book regarding THIS topic...
https://medium.com/lug-magazine/the-cult-of-defense-56eb051b07f3
...And, I have a research question for Scoopers to consider. Please note this is ENTIRELY theoretical and not a hint at anything tangible. This is only "what if." No need to worry or speculate.
1) If criminal abuse along the lines of what we now know occurred at Penn State, MSU and Ohio State ever happened within the MU athletic program at any level, what would you do? Would you remain a devoted fan? Would you cancel your season tickets?
2) If you remain in the fold, why? Would you do anything or insist on any conditions in light of the offenses?
3) Would anything ever drive you away from your fandom or loyalty to MU?
Special thanks to anyone who goes to the trouble of replying. I have no preconceived notion of what these replies might be. If I placed this question in the incorrect place, apologies. If it must be moved, I understand. I just hope people see it.
Take care.
- John Scott Lewinski
First thing a good journalist does is correct his typos.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 01, 2019, 05:22:58 AM
I reject the question part 2 ...
When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting? Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)
I remember the incident well. There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.
Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here? Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html
You don't remember the incident well. Linda wasn't dead, and wouldn't be for more than 20 years. It was worse because she lived in a coma for all of that time. Linda was well loved by her many friends in the MU community. Skitching in the snow. Drinking involved. Not swept under the rug. Copa was arrested and The incident was investigated. Not similar to the alleged sexual assaults.
Quote from: LloydsLegs on June 01, 2019, 10:13:09 AM
You don't remember the incident well. Linda wasn't dead, and wouldn't be for more than 20 years. It was worse because she lived in a coma for all of that time. Linda was well loved by her many friends in the MU community. Skitching in the snow. Drinking involved. Not swept under the rug. Copa was arrested and The incident was investigated. Not similar to the alleged sexual assaults.
Like I said in my first post, any fig leaf of "punishment" will be accepted and then the issue excused.
Thanks for proving my point.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 01, 2019, 05:10:56 AM
It's how the world works ... both the abstract comments of absolute morality and the reality that most would accept any PR level of punishment as good enough and then "rally around the flag" and then watch MU basketball set attendance records.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 01, 2019, 06:29:24 PM
Like I said in my first post, any fig leaf of "punishment" will be accepted and then the issue excused.
Thanks for proving my point.
What should the punishment have been?
Quote from: warriorchick on June 01, 2019, 09:57:28 PM
What should the punishment have been?
Castration.
Then put his man parts back on and castrate him again.
Then boil him in oil.
Then use the oil to fry something at Arby's.
I mean, duh!
Many of these things went on at my high school.
We had two confirmed pedophile priests on the faculty when I was there, both of whom likely were abusing my classmates. One was physically beating male members of my theology class (he spent more than 20 years in the state prison before he recently died). The second avoided any prosecution because of a statute of limitations.
A third priest had what the Diocese called credible evidence of pedophilia. He went on to be principal of the high school. Our Diocese did all of the things that Dioceses do to cover this stuff up. They moved the priests around to different deaneries, got them help and brought them back to active ministry.
I'm still a practicing Catholic and I attend Mass weekly. Why? You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the church needs reform and it needs it fairly soon. But my wife and I support Marquette. We support my parish (both in Chicago and Florida) and we actually gave to the DSA for the Diocese of Palm Beach. We do this in recognition of the hard work many, many great people are doing in our faith to carry on the mission Jesus instructed us to do. No NGO in this world does more to alleviate suffering, educate, feed and clothe the poor, provide medical care and provide basic life services in many places throughout the world than does the Catholic Church and our faithful.
As to Marquette, some have pointed out the problems some of our athletes have had over the years. If we had a truly heinous pattern of behavior in which our athletes, administrators and university leaders were hiding actions and conspiring to prevent disclosure, yeah, I suppose I might have a problem with MU basketball and, indeed MU. But this won't happen at Marquette, in my view, because of the core values that are pervasive at the university.
Thank you for all of the responses.
I can't comment, agree or disagree with any of them because that could influence or taint the conversation. Still, it's all appreciated.
Take care.
Quote from: silverback on June 02, 2019, 12:26:26 AMI can't comment, agree or disagree with any of them because that could influence or taint the conversation.
Well, you started it on Scoop, so the taint was inevitable.
One other thing to factor in is fan bias. When you love something, especially when it comes to sports, it seems hard to acknowledge the faults. How many Penn State fans refused to acknowledge what was going on, even when it was obvious? You saw the same from fans of Michigan State & Ohio State.
Amidst the cheating allegations, I've repeatedly seen Arizona fans defending Sean Miller. They are the only ones thinking there's a chance he's clean.
Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.
If something bigger happened, it's hard not to turn a blind eye when you have a vested fan interest, or at the least for judgments to be adversely affected. The last people to accept that a major scandal was going on at Marquette are people like those of us on this board.
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 02, 2019, 06:12:46 AM
Well, you started it on Scoop, so the taint was inevitable.
One other thing to factor in is fan bias. When you love something, especially when it comes to sports, it seems hard to acknowledge the faults. How many Penn State fans refused to acknowledge what was going on, even when it was obvious? You saw the same from fans of Michigan State & Ohio State.
Amidst the cheating allegations, I've repeatedly seen Arizona fans defending Sean Miller. They are the only ones thinking there's a chance he's clean.
Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.
If something bigger happened, it's hard not to turn a blind eye when you have a vested fan interest, or at the least for judgments to be adversely affected. The last people to accept that a major scandal was going on at Marquette are people like those of us on this board.
Thank you for stating it so well. I think it falls under the Commitment Bias category.
Quote from: warriorchick on June 01, 2019, 09:57:28 PM
What should the punishment have been?
He destroyed a young woman's life through his personal recklessness and drunk driving. The charges should have stuck (not dropped), thrown off the team (if MU has morals and not a more pressing concern about rebound production) and maybe spent some time in jail.
Instead, most in the MU community in 1985, though it was a joke like MU 82.
Quote from: MU82 on June 01, 2019, 10:04:08 PM
Castration.
Then put his man parts back on and castrate him again.
Then boil him in oil.
Then use the oil to fry something at Arby's.
I mean, duh!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 01, 2019, 06:47:32 AM
Wow that really is messed up. I had no idea that happened and thought the two 2010-11 assaults were the worst thing in program history.
Was there any eventual fallout from this?
Linda Tully's father died in 2016. This was part of his Obituary
https://chicago.suntimes.com/2016/6/24/18472259/thomas-a-tully-noted-sherlockian-dead-at-80
His religious faith saw him through a harrowing ordeal with one of his six children.
In 1985, his daughter Linda Jean suffered a brain injury when she lost her grip and fell while "skitching" from a Jeep in Milwaukee, where she was a 21-year-old volleyball player for Marquette University.
For 24 years, she remained in a vegetative state. He, his wife and the rest of the Tullys visited her frequently. Linda Jean Tully died in 2009.
Wisconsin authorities considered charging the driver, Marquette basketball player Tom Copa, but decided not to. Mr. Tully's brother said that was after the grieving father told officials, "Look, this was an accident, this was a bunch of kids out having a good time."
Reached Wednesday, Copa, who went on to play with the San Antonio Spurs, called Mr. Tully "a very generous person, generous in spirit, very kind and, quite frankly, an inspiration and an example to me."
---------------
He was too kind to Copa
Quote from: Loose Cannon on June 02, 2019, 09:53:21 AM
Thank you for stating it so well. I think it falls under the Commitment Bias category.
I will say, I believe it was Galway Eagle (maybe also chitown) who were strongly in the corner of the victim in the campus rape allegations under Buzz. Though while that certainly is admirable, I believe it was born out of a different commitment bias to a friend he/they knew. It just goes to show how our own frame of reference shapes our perceptions of events.
I don't think the people at Penn State/MSU/Ohio State/Arizona are any better or worse than the people here. I don't think this is an inherent flaw or a sign of a moral corruption so thorough that it permeates beyond the programs and to the fanbases as a whole. It's just how we as people tend to rationalize and justify what we see when it comes to things we are biased in favor of.
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 02, 2019, 11:20:34 AM
I will say, I believe it was Galway Eagle (maybe also chitown) who were strongly in the corner of the victim in the campus rape allegations under Buzz. Though while that certainly is admirable, I believe it was born out of a different commitment bias to a friend he/they knew. It just goes to show how our own frame of reference shapes our perceptions of events.
I don't think the people at Penn State/MSU/Ohio State/Arizona are any better or worse than the people here. I don't think this is an inherent flaw or a sign of a moral corruption so thorough that it permeates beyond the programs and to the fanbases as a whole. It's just how we as people tend to rationalize and justify what we see when it comes to things we are biased in favor of.
Absolutely Agree, it's a Human flaw that is out there for all of us. Maybe through self reflection we may become more aware of our own Commitment Bias and try tomake adjustments.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 31, 2019, 06:51:11 PM
I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with 4Never.
The only thing that would get me to come back is if they got rid of literally everyone even remotely involved or aware of the scandal and the coverup. The president, the BOD, the provost, the athletic director, all of the coaches, everyone. They would also have to permanently break ties with every booster and donor involved.
And regarding the other question, I don't attend church anymore. I consider myself a Catholic, but I can't support the current leadership structure. They would have to do the same thing I described above, which wouldn't leave enough people available to run the organization. Hmmm, maybe they should let women become priests to help....
. Married priests would help.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 02, 2019, 11:09:17 AM
Linda Tully's father died in 2016. This was part of his Obituary
https://chicago.suntimes.com/2016/6/24/18472259/thomas-a-tully-noted-sherlockian-dead-at-80
His religious faith saw him through a harrowing ordeal with one of his six children.
In 1985, his daughter Linda Jean suffered a brain injury when she lost her grip and fell while "skitching" from a Jeep in Milwaukee, where she was a 21-year-old volleyball player for Marquette University.
For 24 years, she remained in a vegetative state. He, his wife and the rest of the Tullys visited her frequently. Linda Jean Tully died in 2009.
Wisconsin authorities considered charging the driver, Marquette basketball player Tom Copa, but decided not to. Mr. Tully's brother said that was after the grieving father told officials, "Look, this was an accident, this was a bunch of kids out having a good time."
Reached Wednesday, Copa, who went on to play with the San Antonio Spurs, called Mr. Tully "a very generous person, generous in spirit, very kind and, quite frankly, an inspiration and an example to me."
---------------
He was too kind to Copa
So there was no coverup, no evidence of Marquette trying to intercede in the legal process, and even the girl's own father thought the handling of the incident was appropriate. What exactly was Marquette's wrongdoing here?
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 02, 2019, 06:12:46 AM
Well, you started it on Scoop, so the taint was inevitable.
One other thing to factor in is fan bias. When you love something, especially when it comes to sports, it seems hard to acknowledge the faults. How many Penn State fans refused to acknowledge what was going on, even when it was obvious? You saw the same from fans of Michigan State & Ohio State.
Amidst the cheating allegations, I've repeatedly seen Arizona fans defending Sean Miller. They are the only ones thinking there's a chance he's clean.
Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.
If something bigger happened, it's hard not to turn a blind eye when you have a vested fan interest, or at the least for judgments to be adversely affected. The last people to accept that a major scandal was going on at Marquette are people like those of us on this board.
I think one way to self test for bias is to honestly ask yourself "if this happened at another university (one that you are entirely neutral about), what would I say/think?"
Let's look at the flip side of quickly taking a position on an alleged crime. I was recently on a jury and the defendent was charged with raping a 15 year old girl. I caught myself all too willing to vote guilty and then forced myself to question if I would be as quick to vote guilty if the victim was 50 instead of 15. After some soul searching I decided I would vote the same way, but the question really needed to be asked. I did vote guilty but again, I think it's important to check our unconscious biases.
Quote from: ATWizJr on June 02, 2019, 11:45:01 AM
. Married priests would help.
Getting rid of poverty vow would help then, too, I suppose
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 02, 2019, 11:00:23 AM
Instead, most in the MU community in 1985, though it was a joke like MU 82.
Please.
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 02, 2019, 06:12:46 AM
Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.
Please don't include every Scooper in the "we," brew.
Nobody thought it was a joke. It was a tragic accident. That poor girl was injured something I had done many times prior and have done many times since. There was no malice. A bunch of kids having fun in the snow and tragedy. Nobody hid anything. Procedures and standards if the time were followed. Her father chose forgiveness. Tom Copa went through the appropriate processes. No conspiracy, no cover-up, nobody taking it as a joke.
Quote from: tower912 on June 02, 2019, 06:05:42 PM
Nobody thought it was a joke. It was a tragic accident. That poor girl was injured something I had done many times prior and have done many times since. There was no malice. A bunch of kids having fun in the snow and tragedy. Nobody hid anything. Procedures and standards if the time were followed. Her father chose forgiveness. Tom Copa went through the appropriate processes. No conspiracy, no cover-up, nobody taking it as a joke.
Drunk driver recklessly driving in the snow with a girl (that was probably drunk too) hanging off the running board ... it's merely a tragedy and nothing else to see, we have the Wisconsin game next week to focus on.
Like I have been saying, we (the collective "we" here) will accept ANYTHING and rationalize everything away so they can continue to accept their team and root for them.
Silverback, please read this Copa part and recognize all the pontificating about morality on page 1 is total garbage. No amount of malfeasance will get anyone to leave rooting for MU ... just like no one is leaving MSU or Penn State. We are all the same.
Only a bad record will do that.
Quote from: warriorchick on June 02, 2019, 03:33:57 PM
So there was no coverup, no evidence of Marquette trying to intercede in the legal process, and even the girl's own father thought the handling of the incident was appropriate. What exactly was Marquette's wrongdoing here?
The victim's family does not get to decide the punishment when the law is broken. That is for the police to investigate and the district attorney to decide.
Do you honestly believe if Copa was not a MUBB player and NBA prospect he would have gotten the same treatment?
In 1985? Probably. Today, less likely.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 02, 2019, 07:34:38 PM
Drunk driver recklessly driving in the snow with a girl (that was probably drunk too) hanging off the running board ... it's merely a tragedy and nothing else to see, we have the Wisconsin game next week to focus on.
Like I have been saying, we (the collective "we" here) will accept ANYTHING and rationalize everything away so they can continue to accept their team and root for them.
Silverback, please read this Copa part and recognize all the pontificating about morality on page 1 is total garbage. No amount of malfeasance will get anyone to leave rooting for MU ... just like no one is leaving MSU or Penn State. We are all the same.
Only a bad record will do that.
Don't speak for me.
And you are 100% wrong about the Copa incident.
Quote from: warriorchick on June 02, 2019, 08:53:32 PM
And you are 100% wrong about the Copa incident.
Please enlighten
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on June 03, 2019, 01:08:00 AM
Please enlighten
Read my earlier posts. Comparing it to the scandals at the other schools is a completely false equivalence.
It's not as though Penn State escaped with zero consequences from the Sandusky child sex abuse scandal.
Far from it.
School president Graham Spanier resigned. Athletic director Tim Curley and coach Joe Paterno had their contracts terminated. Spanier, Curley and school vice president Gary Schultz were charged with perjury, obstruction of justice and failure to report suspected child abuse. All three were sentenced to jail terms (ranging from 4 to 23 months) followed by 2 years of probation.
The NCAA hit Penn State with possibly the most severe sanctions ever imposed on a member institution, including a $60 million fine. The death penalty was seriously considered. The Big Ten Conference imposed an additional $13 million fine.
Settlements with the victims cost Penn State more than $90 million. The scandal even led Moody's Investors Service to downgrade the university's bond rating, which wouldn't be restored for almost four years.
As for financial supporters, officials said the school lost about a half dozen large donors (individuals or corporations who donated more than $1 million).
As of 2017, the school's total cost approached a quarter-billion dollars.
https://onwardstate.com/2018/11/09/penn-state-added-7-5-million-to-sandusky-scandal-costs-in-2017-18/ (https://onwardstate.com/2018/11/09/penn-state-added-7-5-million-to-sandusky-scandal-costs-in-2017-18/)
https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/us/penn-state-scandal-fast-facts/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/us/penn-state-scandal-fast-facts/index.html)
https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/ncaa/penn-state-abuse-scandal-costs-approach-quarter-billion (https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/ncaa/penn-state-abuse-scandal-costs-approach-quarter-billion)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 31, 2019, 03:12:11 PM
I left the church.
So when the President of our country took advantage of an intern, does that mean we should not support the USA. My assertion would be it may be alright to support the ideals of an organization without necessarily supporting those who run it or enforce the rules.
Quote from: Marqevans on June 03, 2019, 01:54:33 PM
So when the President of our country took advantage of an intern, does that mean we should not support the USA. My assertion would be it may be alright to support the ideals of an organization without necessarily supporting those who run it or enforce the rules.
That seems logical.
Quote from: Marqevans on June 03, 2019, 01:54:33 PM
So when the President of our country took advantage of an intern, does that mean we should not support the USA. My assertion would be it may be alright to support the ideals of an organization without necessarily supporting those who run it or enforce the rules.
Sure. But people do leave the US too. Some people have breaking points.
My post in another thread reminded me....
Bill Cosby has received dozens of honorary degrees, and Marquette was the first school to rescind the one they gave him after his scandal came to light. I know it's a symbolic gesture, but at least they did the right thing.
I think the answer is "it depends." But I see two general possibilities:
If Marquette faced an issue on the order of Penn State, but denied that there was a problem in the first place, resisted the investigation at every turn, attacked the victims and disputed any penalties, I'd have a hard time supporting the university. I chose MU as a university with a strong academic standing and values first -- and as a basketball school second.
However, if Marquette showed that it acknowledged wrong-doing, committed itself to fully investigating the issue, held those at fault accountable, accepted the consequences and did what it could to compensate the victims, chances are I would still support MU.
Organizations aren't perfect. Even those dedicated to education and service. But when you fall short of your ideals, what matters is how you deal with it.
Quote from: Marcus92 on June 03, 2019, 02:20:11 PM
I think the answer is "it depends." But I see two general possibilities:
If Marquette faced an issue on the order of Penn State, but denied that there was a problem in the first place, resisted the investigation at every turn, attacked the victims and disputed any penalties, I'd have a hard time supporting the university. I chose MU as a university with a strong academic standing and values first -- and as a basketball school second.
However, if Marquette showed that it acknowledged wrong-doing, committed itself to fully investigating the issue, held those at fault accountable, accepted the consequences and did what it could to compensate the victims, chances are I would still support MU.
Organizations aren't perfect. Even those dedicated to education and service. But when you fall short of your ideals, what matters is how you deal with it.
As usual, M92, a reasonable post from you.
Quote from: MU82 on June 03, 2019, 03:48:20 PMAs usual, M92, a reasonable post from you.
Yeah, sorry. I should know by now that has no place here.
In all seriousness, it's a great question. I would hope that the situation at Penn State made administrators and alumni alike take a hard look at what's most important, and how they came to enable and protect someone like Sandusky (who was eventually convicted on 45 counts of child molestation) for so long (over the course of at least 15 years).
What would your reaction be if Marquette replaced Wojo with Pitino? Sampson? Pearl? Miller, after Arizona let's him go? Any other known cheater? If they ran an academic scam like UNC did?
There was discomfort with Buzz.
Quote from: tower912 on June 05, 2019, 07:24:07 AM
What would your reaction be if Marquette replaced Wojo with Pitino? Sampson? Pearl? Miller, after Arizona let's him go? Any other known cheater? If they ran an academic scam like UNC did?
There was discomfort with Buzz.
Wouldn't be happy about it. But probably wouldn't stop being a fan.
I am not a Pearl or Pitino fan, but their sins come nowhere near the level of what happened at Penn State. There is a huge difference between NCAA violations and covering up a pedophile who abuses children.
Quote from: Cheeks on June 02, 2019, 04:53:13 PM
Getting rid of poverty vow would help then, too, I suppose
Ignorant
Few priest have a poverty vow, please.
Quote from: Marcus92 on June 03, 2019, 02:20:11 PM
I think the answer is "it depends." But I see two general possibilities:
If Marquette faced an issue on the order of Penn State, but denied that there was a problem in the first place, resisted the investigation at every turn, attacked the victims and disputed any penalties, I'd have a hard time supporting the university. I chose MU as a university with a strong academic standing and values first -- and as a basketball school second.
However, if Marquette showed that it acknowledged wrong-doing, committed itself to fully investigating the issue, held those at fault accountable, accepted the consequences and did what it could to compensate the victims, chances are I would still support MU.
Organizations aren't perfect. Even those dedicated to education and service. But when you fall short of your ideals, what matters is how you deal with it.
Well said, essentially the same thing i said so i agree with u !!
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on June 05, 2019, 09:06:50 AM
Few priest have a poverty vow, please.
https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a27114633/expensive-sneakers-preachers-sneakersnpreachers-instagram-interview/ (https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a27114633/expensive-sneakers-preachers-sneakersnpreachers-instagram-interview/)
Where are the MLK posts?
Quote from: Bocephys on June 05, 2019, 09:18:15 AM
https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a27114633/expensive-sneakers-preachers-sneakersnpreachers-instagram-interview/ (https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a27114633/expensive-sneakers-preachers-sneakersnpreachers-instagram-interview/)
Chicos is typically ignorant to facts, but that does nothing to stop him.