Reported this morning.
Those of you worried about the conference and bleeding coaches, here is an example where it didn't happen.
Pretty sure His wife went to nova and bleeds blue and white. Only job their fans seem worried he'd leave for is the 76ers now that they're actually good
smart man UCLA's a whole different fish bowl...more like a shark tank
Quirky tax law in Californiastan May have ultimately undone the Jamie Dixon choice.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/la-sp-ucla-mick-cronin-coaching-search-20190429-story.html
This says more about Wright and Nova than it does the conference. Either way it's good news
This coaching search is still such a sh*tshow...and it's over. So they were willing to double Wright's salary, but wouldn't take care of Barnes or Dixon's buyout? Now they're Assoc AD is almost saying Cronin is half the coach Wright is? Trying to figure out why he would come out with this.
This has nothing to do with the conference as a whole and you know this
Wright is a Philly guy. Despite popular belief, it is possible for schools to hire young head coaches and provide a professional experience that encourages them to reject overtures from bigger schools from across the country.
"Don't mess with happy".
That's pretty crazy to turn down that kinda cash
Quote from: Johnny B on April 30, 2019, 02:57:00 PM
That's pretty crazy to turn down that kinda cash
He has a lot of cash already and he'll have a lot more coming in for a lot of years.
He has his own little fiefdom right where he is and he faces considerably less pressure than he would at UCLA.
He loves Philly.
He loves Nova.
He has won and can continue to win national titles right where he is.
He is in a better basketball conference than UCLA is.
He is very happy.
Yep ... what a crazy fool!
Quote from: MU82 on April 30, 2019, 03:06:39 PM
He has a lot of cash already and he'll have a lot more coming in for a lot of years.
He has his own little fiefdom right where he is and he faces considerably less pressure than he would at UCLA.
He loves Philly.
He loves Nova.
He has won and can continue to win national titles right where he is.
He is in a better basketball conference than UCLA is.
He is very happy.
Yep ... what a crazy fool!
im not saying he is crazy. I am saying from a common persons perspective the idea of turning down another 3.5 mill a year is seemingly crazy. its good for jay though. stay at nova become a legend. Also I highly doubt the Pac-12 will remain trash for long. Just to many Huge market teams etc. I suspect UCLA and Arizona will return to form. And I think other teams like USC, UW, U of O. and Cal will step it out as well. Doubt the Big east remains clearly better than the pac for long
Quote from: Johnny B on April 30, 2019, 03:13:37 PM
im not saying he is crazy. I am saying from a common persons perspective the idea of turning down another 3.5 mill a year is seemingly crazy. its good for jay though. stay at nova become a legend. Also I highly doubt the Pac-12 will remain trash for long. Just to many Huge market teams etc. I suspect UCLA and Arizona will return to form. And I think other teams like USC, UW, U of O. and Cal will step it out as well. Doubt the Big east remains clearly better than the pac for long
Well, since you literally said,
"That's pretty crazy to turn down that kinda cash," and Wright was the one who turned it down, I guess I was pretty crazy to take the leap and assume you were talking about him.
But sure. I'd rather have $3.5 million more coming in every year than I do now. Most "regular" people would.
When it comes to big-time sports, the money isn't "real" and the people getting it aren't "regular." When you have tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars, another few often isn't worth sacrificing happiness for. Some of the jocks who make things about only the money often end up sad they did. When you can be wildly rich whether you choose Option A or Option B, you might as well choose the one that makes you wildly rich and wildly happy.
As for whether the Pac-12 will surpass the Big East eventually, you don't know and neither do I. For many, many years now, it has been behind, usually well behind. I'll deal with the here and now. You are free to deal with whatever time period you wish. It has little to anything to do with Wright's decision anyway, I imagine. It was one minor point I threw out there among many others.
If you are happy and getting paid enough ($3.5 mil is enough), I don't see the appeal of leaving a successful program that you have won two national championships with. It is just money. It isn't like he has to buy his suits second hand or his cars used.
Mark Few basically did that every year until people finally stopped pursuing him.
Some guys are just wired differently........kind of cool to know some coaches don't just go for the biggest offer.........even though there is nothing wrong with that if money is what drives you.
Quote from: MuMark on April 30, 2019, 03:55:44 PM
Mark Few basically did that every year until people finally stopped pursuing him.
Some guys are just wired differently........kind of cool to know some coaches don't just go for the biggest offer.........even though there is nothing wrong with that if money is what drives you.
Yep.
And to be fair, some are driven only partly by the money, or maybe even not all that much by the money. Some would look at the likes of "fallen bluebloods" like UCLA and Indiana as the ultimate challenge, and they like challenging themselves that way.
But there is a lot to be said for being content. To some, that's a dirty phrase because they equate "contentment" with indifference or accepting inferiority. Guys like Few and Wright have shown that a coach can be content, can be an extremely competitive person, and can be successful on a national scale.
They are the rare beasts that have it all -- and, equally importantly, they know they have it all -- and they are to be celebrated IMHO.
the combination of the additional federal taxes Medicare taxes and increased state income taxes ,on his entire income, not to mention the cost of living it is really not a huge pay increase and a lot more risk and headache.
Quote from: Johnny B on April 30, 2019, 03:13:37 PM
Also I highly doubt the Pac-12 will remain trash for long. Just to many Huge market teams etc. I suspect UCLA and Arizona will return to form. And I think other teams like USC, UW, U of O. and Cal will step it out as well. Doubt the Big east remains clearly better than the pac for long
Wondering why you think this. There have been many huge market teams for decades. You say that teams like USC, UW, Oregon, Cal will step it up. With Arizona's troubles and UCLA's fall from blue blood-ness, this is just a mid-major conference. I see no evidence they are getting better.
Quote from: Jockey on April 30, 2019, 04:48:46 PM
Wondering why you think this. There have been many huge market teams for decades. You say that teams like USC, UW, Oregon, Cal will step it up. With Arizona's troubles and UCLA's fall from blue blood-ness, this is just a mid-major conference. I see no evidence they are getting better.
As Arizona basketball and UCLA basketball goes, so does the PAC-12 in general.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 02:09:32 PM
Reported this morning.
Those of you worried about the conference and bleeding coaches, here is an example where it didn't happen.
Yeah, well, there's the rest of the conference - and then there's Villanova.
Quote from: Johnny B on April 30, 2019, 03:13:37 PM
im not saying he is crazy. I am saying from a common persons perspective the idea of turning down another 3.5 mill a year is seemingly crazy.
I could just as easily see a common person saying "he already makes $3.5 million, so if he's happy he'd be crazy to change."
i.e. - don't mess with happy.
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2019, 03:43:30 PM
If you are happy and getting paid enough ($3.5 mil is enough), I don't see the appeal of leaving a successful program that you have won two national championships with. It is just money. It isn't like he has to buy his suits second hand or his cars used.
Look, if anyone thinks the UCLA offer won't come up in Coach Wright's next contract negotiations, then you also still believe we're the number 2 team in the country going into next year.
Wright's "people" will be sure to make this offer a centerpiece whenever his contract is renewed. He'll get his pound of flesh out of Villanova. I promise you he understands the concept of "net present value!"
Quote from: Herman Cain on April 30, 2019, 04:16:41 PM
the combination of the additional federal taxes Medicare taxes and increased state income taxes ,on his entire income, not to mention the cost of living it is really not a huge pay increase and a lot more risk and headache.
I always love this argument.
1. Plenty of people love to live and work in California...supply and demand.
2. How do you know it's more risk? A 15 year deal worth a ton of $ could certainly be less risky...especially if he only plans to coach 10 more years. I would bet the word "risk" never came into the discussion.
3. I would guess the words family, loyalty, legacy, happiness, etc... came into play.
4. Jay is my favorite coach in all of college bball.
Quote from: LAZER on April 30, 2019, 02:35:29 PM
This coaching search is still such a sh*tshow...and it's over. So they were willing to double Wright's salary, but wouldn't take care of Barnes or Dixon's buyout? Now they're Assoc AD is almost saying Cronin is half the coach Wright is? Trying to figure out why he would come out with this.
and that's why the associate AD is, the associate AD, but still makes ya wonder. once you get to the level of jay wright money, but can't tweek the barnes or the dixon deal a little bit?
the barnes thing has got to hurt tennessee recruiting a little bit
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 02:26:15 PM
Quirky tax law in Californiastan May have ultimately undone the Jamie Dixon choice.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/la-sp-ucla-mick-cronin-coaching-search-20190429-story.html
Tell us again how horrible it is to live amongst all those liberals, the first hundred times were so enrapturing.
If Dixon and Cronin were "Tier II" guys, what does that make Wojo? Not even on the radar screen, is what.
Quote from: Research Report on April 30, 2019, 06:21:22 PM
If Dixon and Cronin were "Tier II" guys, what does that make Wojo? Not even on the radar screen, is what.
Dixon and Cronin are good coaches. Saying Wojo isn't as good as them at this point in his career is not an insult.
Quote from: #UnleashCain on April 30, 2019, 02:36:50 PM
This has nothing to do with the conference as a whole and you know this
Nothing? Disagree. Part of your job satisfaction as a coach is going to be tied to a degree to the conference. Your conference helps with recruiting, with visibility via television deal, etc.
So, no, to suggest nothing is wildly wrong in my view.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 07:27:28 PM
Nothing? Disagree. Part of your job satisfaction as a coach is going to be tied to a degree to the conference. Your conference helps with recruiting, with visibility via television deal, etc.
So, no, to suggest nothing is wildly wrong in my view.
+1
I suspect it is
mostly about Nova and Philly...but the status and visibility of the BE is also a
very real factor. Hard to know exactly how much of a role each played, but they are definitely intertwined.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 07:27:28 PM
Nothing? Disagree. Part of your job satisfaction as a coach is going to be tied to a degree to the conference. Your conference helps with recruiting, with visibility via television deal, etc.
So, no, to suggest nothing is wildly wrong in my view.
So Mark Few stays at Gonzaga because of the conference as it offers him help with recruiting and visability?
Quote from: avid1010 on April 30, 2019, 07:49:40 PM
So Mark Few stays at Gonzaga because of the conference as it offers him help with recruiting and visability?
I answered the question regarding Wright. Let's put it this way, if Philly mattered only for him then would he stay if he was at Penn or St Joes'..being in the Ivy League or A10? I don't think so. I believe when someone says it has NOTHING to do with it, they are wrong. For Wright, the conference matters to a degree for the same reason the PAC 12's level might also matter.
Mark Few has said he loves the size, the geography, the way of life in Spokane. Good for him....those were his drivers. The answer doesn't have to be the same for everyone just like any other job, where different benefits or situations are more important to some than others.
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2019, 03:43:30 PM
If you are happy and getting paid enough ($3.5 mil is enough), I don't see the appeal of leaving a successful program that you have won two national championships with. It is just money. It isn't like he has to buy his suits second hand or his cars used.
Agree with this. He already has more than most could spend in a lifetime. At a certain point more isn't better, more is just... more.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 07:59:13 PM
I answered the question regarding Wright. Let's put it this way, if Philly mattered only for him then would he stay if he was at Penn or St Joes'..being in the Ivy League or A10? I don't think so. I believe when someone says it has NOTHING to do with it, they are wrong. For Wright, the conference matters to a degree for the same reason the PAC 12's level might also matter.
Mark Few has said he loves the size, the geography, the way of life in Spokane. Good for him....those were his drivers. The answer doesn't have to be the same for everyone just like any other job, where different benefits or situations are more important to some than others.
You said part of your job satisfaction as a coach is the conf...I pointed out a coach who that doesn't apply to. You have no clue how much the BEAST has to do with Jay staying other than the obvious...that it isnt so bad that he felt he had to leave. You also refernced other schools...not sure Jay wouldn't remain at Nova if it were in one of those conferences.
I happen to think it is a great conference to be a basketball coach in...would certainly hope coaches truly view it that way as well.
Quote from: Warrior Code on April 30, 2019, 08:14:10 PM
Agree with this. He already has more than most could spend in a lifetime. At a certain point more isn't better, more is just... more.
Yes...the thought of growing old on the Nova campus and community as a legend would do it for me.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 30, 2019, 05:38:17 PM
I always love this argument.
1. Plenty of people love to live and work in California...supply and demand.
2. How do you know it's more risk? A 15 year deal worth a ton of $ could certainly be less risky...especially if he only plans to coach 10 more years. I would bet the word "risk" never came into the discussion.
3. I would guess the words family, loyalty, legacy, happiness, etc... came into play.
4. Jay is my favorite coach in all of college bball.
I was only responding to the economic question some posed as to why someone would turn down an offer for twice the current salary. Net, Net it is the same dollars.
As to the risk. The risk is more a summation of the various points your making. He has a great job at a great university where he already has won 2 Natties and been to another final four,with the real possibility of many more. Living in a great place for his family and where he is the King forever. Why give that up to climb another mountain that only leads to the same place you are already at and enjoying.
Quote from: Herman Cain on April 30, 2019, 08:46:20 PM
I was only responding to the economic question some posed as to why someone would turn down an offer for twice the current salary. Net, Net it is the same dollars.
As to the risk. The risk is more a summation of the various points your making. He has a great job at a great university where he already has won 2 Natties and been to another final four,with the real possibility of many more. Living in a great place for his family and where he is the King forever. Why give that up to climb another mountain that only leads to the same place you are already at and enjoying.
That's, hopefully leads to a similar place. Quite a gamble, especially in the John Wooden shadows.
Quote from: Herman Cain on April 30, 2019, 08:46:20 PM
I was only responding to the economic question some posed as to why someone would turn down an offer for twice the current salary. Net, Net it is the same dollars.
As to the risk. The risk is more a summation of the various points your making. He has a great job at a great university where he already has won 2 Natties and been to another final four,with the real possibility of many more. Living in a great place for his family and where he is the King forever. Why give that up to climb another mountain that only leads to the same place you are already at and enjoying.
Right...i was responding to any perceived economic risk...im guessing he could have gotten a contract from ucla that would have made it risk free from a financial perspective.
Outside of dollars...no reason to leave that i can think of.
Quote from: #UnleashCain on April 30, 2019, 02:36:50 PM
This has nothing to do with the conference as a whole and you know this
Actually, it may have a little to do with it. For a powerhouse program like Villanova, the porridge of the Big East is neither too hot nor too cold - but just right. The conference is strong enough to keep them in national conversation and weak enough for them to dominate it. Perfect spot for Jay - he can win championships without having the pressure of a killer regular season schedule.
The other 9 head coaching jobs in the Big East are, at least right now, stepping stones to the top 4 conferences.
Maybe he thought that he had a better chance of making $3.5 million+ over the next 10 years at Nova then making $7 million over the next 5 years at UCLA. And no, I don't want a lecture on the present value of the money.
Report has surfaced that Barnes lied his arse off about the whole UCLA thing.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/la-sp-ucla-mick-cronin-coaching-search-20190429-story.html
After a series of back-and-forth discussions, Barnes agreed to take the job for just short of $6 million per season, with the Bruins footing his $5-million buyout, according to two people familiar with the talks. But Barnes subsequently had a representative contact UCLA, asking for more money.
UCLA pulled out of the discussions at that point, even after Barnes said he would accept the previously agreed-upon terms in an attempt to salvage the deal.
Barnes told reporters in the following days that he momentarily thought he was going to become the Bruins' coach and that the holdup had been UCLA's unwillingness to pay his buyout.
So the narrative that had built for a little while -- that at least in this case, the new school wasn't willing to pay the buyout -- turned out to be a lie that Barnes told to try to save face.
In other words, coaches are still just about total free agents, contracts still aren't worth the paper they are written on, and buyout clauses are still a joke.
As for Barnes, it will be interesting to see how this affects things for him at Tennessee. What does he tell recruits? "Come to Tennessee! I prefer UCLA, but I want you to prefer us!" What does he tell his players about loyalty and giving their all for Vols Nation? "It was just business," is probably the leader in the clubhouse.
In the end, Barnes tried to extort UCLA, failed, and then went back with his tail between his legs begging to get the original terms -- so he's not even a good extorter. Glad they told him to take a hike.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 30, 2019, 08:21:06 PM
You said part of your job satisfaction as a coach is the conf...I pointed out a coach who that doesn't apply to. You have no clue how much the BEAST has to do with Jay staying other than the obvious...that it isnt so bad that he felt he had to leave. You also refernced other schools...not sure Jay wouldn't remain at Nova if it were in one of those conferences.
I happen to think it is a great conference to be a basketball coach in...would certainly hope coaches truly view it that way as well.
You don't think knowing he is going to win the conference every year, get a high seed doesn't factor for Few? I suspect it does, but for others they may want a better conference, more notoriety, etc.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 10:38:57 PM
You don't think knowing he is going to win the conference every year, get a high seed doesn't factor for Few? I suspect it does, but for others they may want a better conference, more notoriety, etc.
You don't think Villanova dominating the "New Big East" isn't a factor for Jay Wright? Few and Wright's situations aren't exactly the same but they're far from dissimilar.
The conference does matter. It's looked at as a Power 5 but JW is treating as his personal WCC. He's Mark Few with the benefit of the doubt. Why leave?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 30, 2019, 10:54:39 PM
You don't think Villanova dominating the "New Big East" isn't a factor for Jay Wright? Few and Wright's situations aren't exactly the same but they're far from dissimilar.
They are vastly dissimilar. Gonzaga has absolutely no competition in their league. Nova does. The situations are not close.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 30, 2019, 09:19:15 PM
Actually, it may have a little to do with it. For a powerhouse program like Villanova, the porridge of the Big East is neither too hot nor too cold - but just right. The conference is strong enough to keep them in national conversation and weak enough for them to dominate it. Perfect spot for Jay - he can win championships without having the pressure of a killer regular season schedule.
The other 9 head coaching jobs in the Big East are, at least right now, stepping stones to the top 4 conferences.
The other perfect temperature porridge that Villanova has is its Big 5 Membership. Every year they have 4 games locked into the schedule that are not total cupcakes ,yet still readily winnable, two of the games are technically away games ,yet in their home town, and thus they have a very built in head start on a solid NET ranking for the OOC part of the season. So even this year when they had a bit of a dip early on they never really plummeted too far in the computer ranking.
I would agree that the Big East ( and every other major conference) is a stepping stone to a blue blood, fallen blue blood, or near blue blood. However, unless there are special circumstances like Buzz had, no one from our league is going to a pedestrian team at the other major conferences. 8 out of the 10 Big East Coaches have varying degrees of cushy sinecures. The two that don't, The Johnnies and DePaul, could if they had better athletics administrations. Part of the reason our conference is cushy for coaches, is that the Big East is an ideally landing spot for quality transfers. So even if a coach misses badly in a year on high school recruiting, the chances of stocking the pipeline with transfers is very much there. Creighton has it down to a science.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 30, 2019, 05:48:18 PM
Tell us again how horrible it is to live amongst all those liberals, the first hundred times were so enrapturing.
No kidding. Broken record.
Quote from: Jockey on April 30, 2019, 04:48:46 PM
Wondering why you think this. There have been many huge market teams for decades. You say that teams like USC, UW, Oregon, Cal will step it up. With Arizona's troubles and UCLA's fall from blue blood-ness, this is just a mid-major conference. I see no evidence they are getting better.
What incredible insight.
What is genuinely hilarious is that the Big East is no better.
This year there maybe little difference between the Pac 12 and Big East. But every other year the new Big East has been in existence they have not been similar, with the Big East being the better conference by numerous objective measures including post season bids and success.
Jon, curious why you feel this way.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 10:38:57 PM
You don't think knowing he is going to win the conference every year, get a high seed doesn't factor for Few? I suspect it does, but for others they may want a better conference, more notoriety, etc.
If conference matters...I don't think it's a selling point for the Zags.
"I know I'll get in trouble for that, but it's the truth," Wright said. "I just love what it stands for. Everybody from the Northeast being in New York for this tournament. ...
"The Big East tournament is one of the greatest basketball tournaments in the country."
- Jay Wright
Quote from: Jon on May 01, 2019, 12:23:35 AM
What incredible insight.
What is genuinely hilarious is that the Big East is no better.
No better? I think there's pretty significant evidence to the contrary.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 01, 2019, 06:24:39 AM
If conference matters...I don't think it's a selling point for the Zags.
I'll let the players and coaches decide that for themselves. The Zags conference isn't great, but they are a virtual guarantee to get a high seed, go undefeated or maybe one loss, and they balance it out with an aggressive non-conference.
Are you suggesting that Jay Wright doesn't think the Big East is a valuable piece for HIM? His quotes over many years would defy that thinking.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 30, 2019, 05:48:18 PM
Tell us again how horrible it is to live amongst all those liberals, the first hundred times were so enrapturing.
This state is great if you love homelessness, highest poverty in the nation, 44th ranked education, highest taxes in the nation...it is amazing. Absolutely sublime.
Quote from: Cheeks on May 01, 2019, 09:41:43 AM
This state is great if you love homelessness, highest poverty in the nation, 44th ranked education, highest taxes in the nation...it is amazing. Absolutely sublime.
CA is a beautiful place, but those key items make it a vacation spot vs. residence for me! Something about no state income tax in FL that I really like. No place is perfect, but if you live in anyplace long enough, you'll appreciate something about it. Still looking to make that Napa trip! Enjoy it Cheeks!
Quote from: war1980rior on May 01, 2019, 10:02:18 AM
CA is a beautiful place, but those key items make it a vacation spot vs. residence for me! Something about no state income tax in FL that I really like. No place is perfect, but if you live in anyplace long enough, you'll appreciate something about it. Still looking to make that Napa trip! Enjoy it Cheeks!
I'll put Wisconsin, specifically Milwaukee, up there with anywhere.
You call BS and say weather.
I answer with:
No hurricanes,
No earthquakes,
No forest fires,
No alligators,
Reasonable cost of living,
Proximity to ORD,
Lake Michigan.
Quote from: The Lens on May 01, 2019, 10:05:11 AM
I'll put Wisconsin, specifically Milwaukee, up there with anywhere.
You call BS and say weather.
I answer with:
No hurricanes,
No earthquakes,
No forest fires,
No alligators,
Reasonable cost of living,
Proximity to ORD,
Lake Michigan.
I really liked that the main highlights were no disasters and cheapish living.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 11:03:54 PM
They are vastly dissimilar. Gonzaga has absolutely no competition in their league. Nova does. The situations are not close.
Absolutely no competition? Here are the average Pomeroy final rankings for the last 4 years:
St Marys 28
Xavier 31.2
Butler 36.8
Creighton 38.2
Seton Hall 41.2
MU 53.8
Providence61.5
GTown 81.2
St Johns 118.6
DePaul 145.6
Now that I have proven beyond any doubt that your statement was patently false will you please a) eat a large helping of crow and b) "man up" (? whatever TF that means) and give some money to the charity of my choice?
PS - I am, of course, kidding about the money. It would be beyond weird to raise money for charity that way.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 10:08:45 AM
Absolutely no competition? Here are the average Pomeroy final rankings for the last 4 years:
St Marys 28
Xavier 31.2
Butler 36.8
Creighton 38.2
Seton Hall 41.2
MU 53.8
Providence61.5
GTown 81.2
St Johns 118.6
DePaul 145.6
Now that I have proven beyond any doubt that your statement was patently false will you please a) eat a large helping of crow and b) "man up" (? whatever TF that means) and give some money to the charity of my choice?
PS - I am, of course, kidding about the money. It would be beyond weird to raise money for charity that way.
Your constant need to argue with EVERY SINGLE POST Chicos posts is terribly annoying.
So beyond St. Mary's and Xavier/Butler/Creighton being somewhat comparable, why didn't you include the rest of Gonzaga's conference? Could it be because the rest of their conference sucks?
Quote from: #UnleashCain on May 01, 2019, 10:06:58 AM
I really liked that the main highlights were no disasters and cheapish living.
I could use a few less hurricanes, but 2 in the last two years and we should be ok for a bit (knocking on wood). That said, no shoveling snow, golf 365 days a year, no traffic (comparatively speaking), excellent health care (Mayo - almost right down the street), no state taxes, and extremely inexpensive real estate.
It's all in what you're used to. I planned on Chicago after MU (grew up in NY), but the Navy made me love the other side of the Mason Dixon line, and love the ocean. Still like to head up to Milwaukee, as it was an extremely fun time. If you're pushing Milwaukee as a place to live, the best thing I can say is the people are "small town nice."
Quote from: Cheeks on May 01, 2019, 09:41:43 AM
This state is great if you love homelessness, highest poverty in the nation, 44th ranked education, highest taxes in the nation...it is amazing. Absolutely sublime.
Then leave or STFU. Is your job that important that you would put yourself and your family through such a sublime experience?
Quote from: 79Warrior on May 01, 2019, 10:19:33 AM
Then leave or STFU. Is your job that important that you would put yourself and your family through such a sublime experience?
I think he said that if you can live with all that, it's a good place. I live in FL and have to tolerate alligators and hurricanes, but it's ok beyond that (except for Gator, Cane and Nole fans - they're enough to drive most out). No shoveling snow for me!
Quote from: 79Warrior on May 01, 2019, 10:19:33 AM
Then leave or STFU. Is your job that important that you would put yourself and your family through such a sublime experience?
+1. It's an awful, soul crushing experience for Cheeks and his family but they can't leave until his daughter finishes high school???? Why would anyone put his loved ones through hell on earth over such an unimportant issue? Don't they have high schools in Utah?
The WCC is not comparable to the Big East. They haven't sent more than 2 teams to the NCAA tourney since 2012. Have they ever sent more than 3 teams?
Quote from: Cheeks on May 01, 2019, 09:41:43 AM
This state is great if you love homelessness, highest poverty in the nation, 44th ranked education, highest taxes in the nation...it is amazing. Absolutely sublime.
then move...if my wife complained as much as you i'd get a divorce.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
+1. It's an awful, soul crushing experience for Cheeks and his family but they can't leave until his daughter finishes high school???? Why would anyone put his loved ones through hell on earth over such an unimportant issue? Don't they have high schools in Utah?
well...kind of...but they would really like to get rid of senior year...
https://abcnews.go.com/WN/utah-mulls-eliminating-12th-grade/story?id=9853553 (https://abcnews.go.com/WN/utah-mulls-eliminating-12th-grade/story?id=9853553)
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on May 01, 2019, 10:15:01 AM
Your constant need to argue with EVERY SINGLE POST Chicos posts is terribly annoying.
So beyond St. Mary's and Xavier/Butler/Creighton being somewhat comparable, why didn't you include the rest of Gonzaga's conference? Could it be because the rest of their conference sucks?
Just read over some of your recents posts. Lots of personal insults, misrepresentations of what people say, opinions I consider either wrong or simplistic, etc., - so I don't really care if you think I'm annoying. Don't like it (or me) put me on ignore.
As to your assertion that I argue with EVERY SINGLE POST that Chico makes, that would be impossible. If you include all his identities he posts 10x more than anyone here. But he talks a lot of sh!t here and when he says things that are patently false (like Gonzaga has ABSOLUTELY NO COMPETITION in the WCC - not LESS COMPETITION than Villanova, but NO COMPETITION - I'll point that out. Don't like it? I couldn't care less.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 01, 2019, 10:28:07 AM
The WCC is not comparable to the Big East. They haven't sent more than 2 teams to the NCAA tourney since 2012. Have they ever sent more than 3 teams?
Never said they were comparable as a conference. Big difference between that and saying Gonzaga has zero competition. Over the last few years the 2nd best team in their conference has, on average, been better than any team in the Big East not named Villanova.
Quote from: The Lens on May 01, 2019, 10:05:11 AM
I'll put Wisconsin, specifically Milwaukee, up there with anywhere.
No alligators
Proximity to ORD
Proximity to ORD I get. But you don't like alligators? What did any alligator do to you? They are quite docile as long as they are regularly fed.
Besides, professional alligator wrestling is Florida's great cultural contribution to the world.
As for our insipid college football fans, all I can say is "Friends don't let friends grow up to be Gators!"
Quote from: Cheeks on April 30, 2019, 10:38:57 PM
You don't think knowing he is going to win the conference every year, get a high seed doesn't factor for Few? I suspect it does, but for others they may want a better conference, more notoriety, etc.
Dan Monson is still very good friends with Mark Few. Monson has said what a bad decision it was to go to Minnesota and that he should have stayed at Gonzaga. I'm sure that has impacted Few's thinking.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 01, 2019, 11:26:46 AM
Dan Monson is still very good friends with Mark Few. Monson has said what a bad decision it was to go to Minnesota and that he should have stayed at Gonzaga. I'm sure that has impacted Few's thinking.
Don't mess with happy
QuoteBesides, professional alligator wrestling is Florida's great cultural contribution to the world.
No...all the stories of Florida resident does ...X...are Florida's greatest contribution.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Never said they were comparable as a conference. Big difference between that and saying Gonzaga has zero competition. Over the last few years the 2nd best team in their conference has, on average, been better than any team in the Big East not named Villanova.
You sure about that?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Never said they were comparable as a conference. Big difference between that and saying Gonzaga has zero competition. Over the last few years the 2nd best team in their conference has, on average, been better than any team in the Big East not named Villanova.
Absolutely moronic statement. Last year alone the Big East got two #1 seeds. The WCC only got 1 team in the NCAA tournament. The Big East got 6.
In 2016-17, Butler a 4 seed, was significantly better than St. Mary's (7-seed). The Big East got 7 teams in the tournament, the WCC only 2. The BE had 3 teams with higher seeds than St. Mary's.
In 2015-16, Gonzaga was the only team to make the NCAA tournament as an 11 seed. The WCC had no ranked teams. The BE got 5 teams in the tournament. Two 2-seeds, a 6-seed, and two 9-seeds. All higher than Gonzaga.
Facts still matter.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 01, 2019, 11:26:46 AM
Dan Monson is still very good friends with Mark Few. Monson has said what a bad decision it was to go to Minnesota and that he should have stayed at Gonzaga. I'm sure that has impacted Few's thinking.
Few is so beloved and bulletproof in Spokane that he could punch a nun and people would ask "what did that nun do to Coach Few?" He has all the money he needs, loves to fly fish and so Spokane and eastern Washington fits his lifestyle, he gets everything he wants from the university and is basically guaranteed a tourney bid every year. They're a high major in a mid-major conference.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Never said they were comparable as a conference. Big difference between that and saying Gonzaga has zero competition. Over the last few years the 2nd best team in their conference has, on average, been better than any team in the Big East not named Villanova.
I don't know if average KenPom ranking is the best way to determine that. St. Mary's has been consistently good (not great) in KenPom but they've never really come close to challenging Gonzaga the way other Big East teams have challenged Villanova.
2019:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 30, NCAA Seed 6)
Big East #2: Marquette (KenPom 33, NCAA Seed 5)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 2, NCAA Seed 1)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 31, NCAA Seed 11)
Kenpom Difference: 3 (Big East) 29 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: -1 (Big East) 10 (WCC)
2018:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 1, NCAA Seed 1)
Big East #2: Xavier (KenPom 15, NCAA Seed 1)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 10, NCAA Seed 4)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 32, NCAA Seed NIT 1)
Kenpom Difference: 14 (Big East) 21 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 0 (Big East) 9 (WCC)
2017:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 2, NCAA Seed 1)
Big East #2: Butler (KenPom 25, NCAA Seed 4)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 1, NCAA Seed 1)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 15, NCAA Seed 7)
Kenpom Difference: 23 (Big East) 14 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 3 (Big East) 6 (WCC)
2016:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 1, NCAA Seed 2)
Big East #2: Xavier (KenPom 14, NCAA Seed 2)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 21, NCAA Seed 11)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 34, NCAA Seed NIT 2)
Kenpom Difference: 13 (Big East) 13 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 0 (Big East) 3 (WCC)
2015:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 5, NCAA Seed 1)
Big East #2: Georgetown (KenPom 22, NCAA Seed 4)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 7, NCAA Seed 2)
WCC: #2: BYU (Kenpom 28, NCAA Seed 11)
Kenpom Difference: 17 (Big East) 21 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 3 (Big East) 9 (WCC)
2014:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 11, NCAA Seed 2)
Big East #2: Creighton (KenPom 17, NCAA Seed 3)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 24, NCAA Seed 8)
WCC: #2: BYU (Kenpom 49, NCAA Seed 10)
Kenpom Difference: 6 (Big East) 25 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 1 (Big East) 2 (WCC)
So every year other than maybe 2017, the second place team in the Big East has been better than than second place team in the WCC. Add in the fact that in several of these years the third, fourth, fifth, and sixth place teams were right behind the second place team in the Big East while those team in the WCC were not within miles, I think it is a reasonable statement to say that compared to Villanova/Big East, Gonzaga has no competition in the WCC.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 01, 2019, 12:22:27 PM
I don't know if average KenPom ranking is the best way to determine that. St. Mary's has been consistently good (not great) in KenPom but they've never really come close to challenging Gonzaga the way other Big East teams have challenged Villanova.
2019:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 30, NCAA Seed 6)
Big East #2: Marquette (KenPom 33, NCAA Seed 5)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 2, NCAA Seed 1)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 31, NCAA Seed 11)
Kenpom Difference: 3 (Big East) 29 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: -1 (Big East) 10 (WCC)
2018:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 1, NCAA Seed 1)
Big East #2: Xavier (KenPom 15, NCAA Seed 1)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 10, NCAA Seed 4)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 32, NCAA Seed NIT 1)
Kenpom Difference: 14 (Big East) 21 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 0 (Big East) 9 (WCC)
2017:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 2, NCAA Seed 1)
Big East #2: Butler (KenPom 25, NCAA Seed 4)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 1, NCAA Seed 1)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 15, NCAA Seed 7)
Kenpom Difference: 23 (Big East) 14 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 3 (Big East) 6 (WCC)
2016:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 1, NCAA Seed 2)
Big East #2: Xavier (KenPom 14, NCAA Seed 2)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 21, NCAA Seed 11)
WCC: #2: St. Mary's (Kenpom 34, NCAA Seed NIT 2)
Kenpom Difference: 13 (Big East) 13 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 0 (Big East) 3 (WCC)
2015:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 5, NCAA Seed 1)
Big East #2: Georgetown (KenPom 22, NCAA Seed 4)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 7, NCAA Seed 2)
WCC: #2: BYU (Kenpom 28, NCAA Seed 11)
Kenpom Difference: 17 (Big East) 21 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 3 (Big East) 9 (WCC)
2014:
Big East #1: Villanova (KenPom 11, NCAA Seed 2)
Big East #2: Creighton (KenPom 17, NCAA Seed 3)
WCC: #1: Gonzaga (Kenpom 24, NCAA Seed 8)
WCC: #2: BYU (Kenpom 49, NCAA Seed 10)
Kenpom Difference: 6 (Big East) 25 (WCC)
NCAA Seed Difference: 1 (Big East) 2 (WCC)
So every year other than maybe 2017, the second place team in the Big East has been better than than second place team in the WCC. Add in the fact that in several of these years the third, fourth, fifth, and sixth place teams were right behind the second place team in the Big East while those team in the WCC were not within miles, I think it is a reasonable statement to say that compared to Villanova/Big East, Gonzaga has no competition in the WCC.
I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.
But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 30, 2019, 05:48:18 PM
Tell us again how horrible it is to live amongst all those liberals, the first hundred times were so enrapturing.
Politics
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 01:16:11 PM
I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.
But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.
Right. They occasionally face another decent team. Congrats on being...kinda correct????
You should hang a banner.
Quote from: forgetful on May 01, 2019, 11:57:01 AM
Absolutely moronic statement. Last year alone the Big East got two #1 seeds. The WCC only got 1 team in the NCAA tournament. The Big East got 6.
In 2016-17, Butler a 4 seed, was significantly better than St. Mary's (7-seed). The Big East got 7 teams in the tournament, the WCC only 2. The BE had 3 teams with higher seeds than St. Mary's.
In 2015-16, Gonzaga was the only team to make the NCAA tournament as an 11 seed. The WCC had no ranked teams. The BE got 5 teams in the tournament. Two 2-seeds, a 6-seed, and two 9-seeds. All higher than Gonzaga.
Facts still matter.
Facts do matter.
Claiming that #25 in Pomeroy Butler was "significantly better" than #15 St Marys because they were a 4 seed instead of a 7 is a perfect example of a moronic statement. If they played on a neutral court St Marys would have been a 2 point favorite, but you and the morons who seed the NCAA tournament know more about who's better than Vegas? No freakin' way. You're a man of science but for some reason can't grasp this. Can't figure out why.
So how 'bout that Jay Wright?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 01, 2019, 01:27:11 PM
Right. They occasionally face another decent team. Congrats on being...kinda correct????
You should hang a banner.
Thanks, Fluffy.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 01, 2019, 01:17:32 PM
Politics
Agreed, Chicos needs to stop constantly insinuating his brand of politics into discussions.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 01, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
Agreed, Chicos needs to stop constantly insinuating his brand of politics into discussions.
As you should, sir!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 01:16:11 PM
I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.
But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.
You were the one who brought the new Big East into it by comparing the two.
I don't consider facing 1 team even capable of making an at large bid 2 maybe 3 times a year to be competition for a team that perennial finishes in the top 10. If you do, mazal tov, your definition of competition is different than mine.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 01:16:11 PM
I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.
But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.
Are we really have a conversation comparing the Big East and WCC?
The only legitimate competition GU has for the conference title is SMC and BYU. Nova has the entire rest of the conference (except DePaul).
SMC, fairly or not, had to win the conference tournament to get into the dance this year so the conference could get two teams in. The WCC also had a number of 200+ RPI teams and no teams that even made the NIT.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 01, 2019, 10:39:20 AM
then move...if my wife complained as much as you i'd get a divorce.
I am, 14 months. Soon as youngest completes school. Pretty simple.
Canning wait.
How humiliating for Cronin to have basically accepted the job and then forced to wait while UCLA tried to find someone better. Now he is basically an expensive rental and they will most likely continue recruiting until they find someone they really want... at which point he's gone and in with the next..
Additionally, I'm not sure I'd want to be one of the top 4 paid government employees in the People's Republic of California when surely some of the commies that run the place would like nothing more than to equalize government salaries - just like they'd like to equalize all salaries. That's a target I'd rather not have on my back. Not when you can get the same salary at a good school that actually wants you there.
https://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/22/top-california-public-salaries-go-to-coaches-doctors/
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 10:08:45 AM
Absolutely no competition? Here are the average Pomeroy final rankings for the last 4 years:
St Marys 28
Xavier 31.2
Butler 36.8
Creighton 38.2
Seton Hall 41.2
MU 53.8
Providence61.5
GTown 81.2
St Johns 118.6
DePaul 145.6
Now that I have proven beyond any doubt that your statement was patently false will you please a) eat a large helping of crow and b) "man up" (? whatever TF that means) and give some money to the charity of my choice?
PS - I am, of course, kidding about the money. It would be beyond weird to raise money for charity that way.
Normally competition comes from all the teams in a conference, apparent the WCC now is a two conference entity which I wasn't aware of.
The grind of having to play tough game after tough game does not exist in the WCC whether SMS hangs around as a semi-decent alternative or not.
I stand by my statement. Meanwhile, about that pressure applies to Sam at Georgetown....we're all still waiting.
Quote from: Jon on May 01, 2019, 12:23:35 AM
What incredible insight.
What is genuinely hilarious is that the Big East is no better.
What an incredible jerk.
I was simply replying to another poster - not trying to offer deep insight.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on May 01, 2019, 02:41:20 PM
Are we really have a conversation comparing the Big East and WCC?
No. We're having a conversation about whether there is even one decent team in the WCC besides Gonzaga. I say St Mary's qualifies. Chico says no.
What say you, Billy?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 05:12:52 PM
No. We're having a conversation about whether there is even one decent team in the WCC besides Gonzaga. I say St Mary's qualifies. Chico says no.
What say you, Billy?
You also said that over the last few years St Mary's has been better than everyone in the BE minus Villanova...which has been proven wrong.
Quote from: LAZER on May 01, 2019, 05:35:35 PM
You also said that over the last few years St Mary's has been better than everyone in the BE minus Villanova...which has been proven wrong.
No, I said that St Mary's average Pomeroy ranking over the last 4 years is higher than any Big East team other than Villanova. Which is correct (do the math).
I use Pomeroy because I believe they are more accurate than the AP and USA Today polls and the NCAA seeding committee. Las Vegas agrees with me. You obviously don't. But in no way have I been "proven" wrong.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 05:46:06 PM
No, I said that St Mary's average Pomeroy ranking over the last 4 years is higher than any Big East team other than Villanova. Which is correct (do the math).
I use Pomeroy because I believe they are more accurate than the AP and USA Today polls and the NCAA seeding committee because my argument would be 100% trash instead of 80% trash otherwise. Las Vegas agrees with me. You obviously don't. But in no way have I been "proven" wrong.
FIFY
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 05:12:52 PM
No. We're having a conversation about whether there is even one decent team in the WCC besides Gonzaga. I say St Mary's qualifies. Chico says no.
What say you, Billy?
I say there are two - SMC and BYU.
BYU has gone into the Kennel and knocked off the Zags on Senior Day two of the last three years.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 05:46:06 PM
No, I said that St Mary's average Pomeroy ranking over the last 4 years is higher than any Big East team other than Villanova. Which is correct (do the math).
I use Pomeroy because I believe they are more accurate than the AP and USA Today polls and the NCAA seeding committee. Las Vegas agrees with me. You obviously don't. But in no way have I been "proven" wrong.
But if you use the Pomeroy rankings of the 2nd best Big East team every year, have been better than the 2nd best WCC team every year but 1. St. Mary's is consistently a top 35ish team but has only been in KenPom's top 30 once in the past 6 years. Meanwhile, Villanova has had to face at least one KenPom top 30 team every year but one, and most years they have to face multiple top 30 teams.
Compared to Villanova/Big East, the competition Gonzaga faces in the WCC is laughable.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 01, 2019, 05:50:20 PM
FIFY
I can't help the ignorant who insist on remaining ignorant. You're exhibit A, Fluffy Blue One.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 01, 2019, 06:16:34 PM
But if you use the Pomeroy rankings of the 2nd best Big East team every year, have been better than the 2nd best WCC team every year but 1. St. Mary's is consistently a top 35ish team but has only been in KenPom's top 30 once in the past 6 years. Meanwhile, Villanova has had to face at least one KenPom top 30 team every year but one, and most years they have to face multiple top 30 teams.
Compared to Villanova/Big East, the competition Gonzaga faces in the WCC is laughable.
TAMU,
More straw men. Remember the initial discussion. Someone said there was absolutely no competition for Gonzaga in the WCC. The simple FACT is that St Mary's has been, per KenPom, on average better than Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, Georgetown, St John's and DePaul over the last 4 years. Given that FACT (however you choose to interpret it) is there any doubt that at least one program in the WCC has been competitive?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 07:44:43 PM
TAMU,
More straw men. Remember the initial discussion. Someone said there was absolutely no competition for Gonzaga in the WCC. The simple FACT is that St Mary's has been, per KenPom, on average better than Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, Georgetown, St John's and DePaul over the last 4 years. Given that FACT (however you choose to interpret it) is there any doubt that at least one program in the WCC has been competitive?
I would say that's pretty disingenuous. The Big East has multiple programs that provide competition. Just because it's Creighton one year, Georgetown or Xavier another, those programs are providing far more competition to Villanova than St. Mary's is to Gonzaga. You use St. Mary's average of 28, but the second place team in the Big East over the same period averaged 21.8 in kenpom ranking. If you go back 6 years, the average is 21 for the Big East runner up and the WCC runner-up is 31.5, and the distance to the teams below #2 is even more stark.
St. Mary's is a consistently decent team. They are seldom as good as the teams that are lining up behind Villanova. And that it's a different team every year shows that the Big East is both stronger and deeper.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 01, 2019, 07:55:00 PM
I would say that's pretty disingenuous. The Big East has multiple programs that provide competition. Just because it's Creighton one year, Georgetown or Xavier another, those programs are providing far more competition to Villanova than St. Mary's is to Gonzaga. You use St. Mary's average of 28, but the second place team in the Big East over the same period averaged 21.8 in kenpom ranking. If you go back 6 years, the average is 21 for the Big East runner up and the WCC runner-up is 31.5, and the distance to the teams below #2 is even more stark.
St. Mary's is a consistently decent team. They are seldom as good as the teams that are lining up behind Villanova. And that it's a different team every year shows that the Big East is both stronger and deeper.
Brew,
I wouldn't disagree that there is usually a team in the Big East other than Villanova who is better than St Mary's. And i'm absolutely in agreement that the Big East, top to bottom, is much stronger than the WCC. All that said, 1. St Mary's, despite protestations to the contrary, is and has been a very competitive program for some time and 2. According to Pomeroy they have been, on average, better than each of the 9 teams in the Big East not named Villanova over the last 4 years.
#1 is the key, I only added #2 to show just how off the wall ridiculous it was for someone to say that St Mary's wasn't a competitive team/program.
How any of this is disingenuous eludes me.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 07:44:43 PM
TAMU,
More straw men. Remember the initial discussion. Someone said there was absolutely no competition for Gonzaga in the WCC. The simple FACT is that St Mary's has been, per KenPom, on average better than Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, Georgetown, St John's and DePaul over the last 4 years. Given that FACT (however you choose to interpret it) is there any doubt that at least one program in the WCC has been competitive?
No straw man, trying to point that the data is misleading. St. Mary's is consistent, that doesn't make them good competition. In the 18 years of KenPom, St. Mary's has finished above 30th exactly 3 times, and the top 25 1 time. I wouldn't call them competition for a team like Gonzaga who has 7 top 10 finishes in the same time. If you do, that's fine, we have different definitions of competition. Especially when that's the best Gonzaga's conference has to offer.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 01, 2019, 09:57:58 PM
No straw man, trying to point that the data is misleading. St. Mary's is consistent, that doesn't make them good competition. In the 18 years of KenPom, St. Mary's has finished above 30th exactly 3 times, and the top 25 1 time. I wouldn't call them competition for a team like Gonzaga who has 7 top 10 finishes in the same time. If you do, that's fine, we have different definitions of competition. Especially when that's the best Gonzaga's conference has to offer.
You're going back 18 years and MY data is misleading? The "new" Big East is 6 years old - let's confine our research to that time period.
In those 6 years St Mary's has been judged by Pomeroy to be better than Villanova 1x, better than Xavier 2x, better than Butler 3x, better than Creighton, Seton Hall, Providence, Georgetown and St John's 4x and better than Marquette and DePaul 6x.
Their average ranking is #40, 8 spots lower than Xavier but higher than the other 8 Big East teams not named Villanova.
Now, you're free to say that their resume' makes them "non competitive" with Gonzaga over that period (I would very much disagree) but only if you acknowledge that the "little 8" of the Big East has been even more "non competitive" with Villanova over the same period.
All that said, I agree with Billy that only St Mary's and BYU offer any meaningful competition to the Zags and that the middle of their conference is far weaker than the Big East. Still, St Mary's has been better overall than any of the new Big East except for Villanova and Xavier. That makes them competitive by any fair standard.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 11:24:36 PM
Now, you're free to say that their resume' makes them "non competitive" with Gonzaga over that period (I would very much disagree) but only if you acknowledge that the "little 8" of the Big East has been even more "non competitive" with Villanova over the same period.
This is the line of thinking I was trying to address. St. Mary's average is higher than the "little 8" because they are consistently good, not great. They finish in the mid 30s consistently never getting anywhere close to Gonzaga's level. On the other hand, Villanova regularly has challenges from Xavier, Butler, Georgetown, Marquette, and Creighton who have all gotten closer to Villanova than Saint Mary's has ever gotten to Gonzaga.
In the end, this is another one of those vocabulary arguments. You are supporting St. Mary's on their ability to be consistent even if they are never great. I'm supporting the Big East because their teams can reach higher heights than St. Mary's but are more inconsistent. That's fine, reasonable people can disagree.
Quote from: Jockey on May 01, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
What an incredible jerk.
I was simply replying to another poster - not trying to offer deep insight.
that was a great movie, enn'a?
Grandma Johnson: [reading a letter from Navin] My dear family, guess what? Today I found out what my special purpose is for. Gosh, what a great time I had. I wish the whole family could've been here with me. Maybe some other time as I intend to do this a lot. Every chance I get. I think next week I'll be able to send more money as I may have extra work. My friend Patty has promised me a blow job. Your loving son, Navin.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 01, 2019, 09:26:10 PM
Brew,
I wouldn't disagree that there is usually a team in the Big East other than Villanova who is better than St Mary's. And i'm absolutely in agreement that the Big East, top to bottom, is much stronger than the WCC. All that said, 1. St Mary's, despite protestations to the contrary, is and has been a very competitive program for some time and 2. According to Pomeroy they have been, on average, better than each of the 9 teams in the Big East not named Villanova over the last 4 years.
#1 is the key, I only added #2 to show just how off the wall ridiculous it was for someone to say that St Mary's wasn't a competitive team/program.
How any of this is disingenuous eludes me.
Gonzaga and Villanova are fairly comparable programs in the past 6 years. Gonzaga has had more consistent NCAA success, Villanova has had the bigger runs, but both are safely consensus top-10 teams. I think that's fair to say. In that period, the WCC has had two other teams finish in Pomeroy's top-30. St. Mary's & BYU both did it once. In that same span, the Big East has had 14 teams not named Villanova finish in the top-30.
St. Mary's is a decent program. They would probably pretty safely be a middle-of-the-pack team if they played in the Big East, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. But just because they are generally the second best team in the WCC doesn't put them close to on par with Gonzaga.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 02, 2019, 07:45:03 AM
Gonzaga and Villanova are fairly comparable programs in the past 6 years. Gonzaga has had more consistent NCAA success, Villanova has had the bigger runs, but both are safely consensus top-10 teams. I think that's fair to say. In that period, the WCC has had two other teams finish in Pomeroy's top-30. St. Mary's & BYU both did it once. In that same span, the Big East has had 14 teams not named Villanova finish in the top-30.
St. Mary's is a decent program. They would probably pretty safely be a middle-of-the-pack team if they played in the Big East, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. But just because they are generally the second best team in the WCC doesn't put them close to on par with Gonzaga.
Nailed it, brewski.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 02, 2019, 07:45:03 AM
St. Mary's is a decent program. They would probably pretty safely be a middle-of-the-pack team if they played in the Big East, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. But just because they are generally the second best team in the WCC doesn't put them close to on par with Gonzaga.
Agree that St Mary's isn't close to on a par with Gonzaga - just as no other Big East team is close to on a par with Villanova. I think they would have finished between 2nd and 6th in the 6 year existence of the Big East and have the overall 2nd or 3rd best conference record behind Villanova and maybe/probably Xavier.
But, one last time, do they offer ZERO competition to Gonzaga? That's not your (or TAMU's) argument but the onebChico made. And that argument is insane. In 2016, they tied the Zags for the conference championship at 15-3. In 2017 and 2018 they were 16-2 in conference 1 game behind Gonzaga's 17-1. And I think they've beaten the Zags in the conference tournament a couple of times. That is beyond a doubt competing - and competing at a higher level with the conference leader on a par with Xavier and head and shoulders above the remainder of the big East teams.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 02, 2019, 09:46:07 AM
Agree that St Mary's isn't close to on a par with Gonzaga - just as no other Big East team is close to on a par with Villanova. I think they would have finished between 2nd and 6th in the 6 year existence of the Big East and have the overall 2nd or 3rd best conference record behind Villanova and maybe/probably Xavier.
But, one last time, do they offer ZERO competition to Gonzaga? That's not your (or TAMU's) argument but the onebChico made. And that argument is insane. In 2016, they tied the Zags for the conference championship at 15-3. In 2017 and 2018 they were 16-2 in conference 1 game behind Gonzaga's 17-1. And I think they've beaten the Zags in the conference tournament a couple of times. That is beyond a doubt competing - and competing at a higher level with the conference leader on a par with Xavier and head and shoulders above the remainder of the big East teams.
Honestly, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I thought you were making a commentary about the strength of the Big East. I did not realize that you would invest this much energy into challenging Chicos just because he used obvious hyperbole when saying "absolutely no competition." Gonzaga is 272-30 (90.1%) in WCC play since Mark Few took over. They are 97-9 (91.5%) in the last 7 years. I don't think saying "absolutely no competition" is that unreasonable of a use of hyperbole.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 02, 2019, 10:17:49 AM
Honestly, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I thought you were making a commentary about the strength of the Big East. I did not realize that you would invest this much energy into challenging Chicos just because he used obvious hyperbole when saying "absolutely no competition." Gonzaga is 272-30 (90.1%) in WCC play since Mark Few took over. They are 97-9 (91.5%) in the last 7 years. I don't think saying "absolutely no competition" is that unreasonable of a use of hyperbole.
It's actually a combination of two seta of facts. If St Mary's is no good, if St Mary's offers zero competition to Gonzaga (both false) what does that say about the Big East? Per Pomeroy, last year St Mary's was better than every team in the Big East, including Villanova. In 2017, they were better than everyone but Villanova. The LOWEST they've been ranked in the last 4 years is 34th in the nation. They tied Gonzaga for the conference championship in 2015 and finished one game back in 2017 and 2018. They beat the Zags this year (2019) for the conference tournament title, something they've now done 3 times in the last 10 years. Again, to characterize that as non competitive is insane.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 02, 2019, 10:35:01 AM
It's actually a combination of two seta of facts. If St Mary's is no good, if St Mary's offers zero competition to Gonzaga (both false) what does that say about the Big East? Per Pomeroy, last year St Mary's was better than every team in the Big East, including Villanova. In 2017, they were better than everyone but Villanova. The LOWEST they've been ranked in the last 4 years is 34th in the nation. They tied Gonzaga for the conference championship in 2015 and finished one game back in 2017 and 2018. They beat the Zags this year (2019) for the conference tournament title, something they've now done 3 times in the last 10 years. Again, to characterize that as non competitive is insane.
This was all covered about 75 years ago. Notable Zag Bing Crosby starred in The Bells of St Mary's which foretold of the natural rivalry between those two great constituencies.
Fr O'Malley's constant sparring with Sr Benedict (Ingrid Bergman) crackled with a sexual tension that was palpable.
Frankly, in her prime, Ingrid Bergman was eminently doable. I would have enjoyed a dirty weekend with her.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 02, 2019, 10:35:01 AM
It's actually a combination of two seta of facts. If St Mary's is no good, if St Mary's offers zero competition to Gonzaga (both false) what does that say about the Big East? Per Pomeroy, last year St Mary's was better than every team in the Big East, including Villanova. In 2017, they were better than everyone but Villanova. The LOWEST they've been ranked in the last 4 years is 34th in the nation. They tied Gonzaga for the conference championship in 2015 and finished one game back in 2017 and 2018. They beat the Zags this year (2019) for the conference tournament title, something they've now done 3 times in the last 10 years. Again, to characterize that as non competitive is insane.
Some may argue that is insane to say that a team faces competition in conference when that team has won:
90.1% of its conference games the past 20 years
91.5% of its conference games the past 7 years
96.2% of its conference games the last 3 years
15/20 Conference tournaments
18/19 Conference regular season championships
I could be wrong, but my guess is you couldn't find a single conference that has been more dominated by 1 team in the modern era, possibly ever. Given that, I think a little harmless hyperbole about Gonzaga facing no competition in conference is reasonable. You don't which is fine.
I mean, Xavier just won the Big East regular season last year. I think the Big East is WAY more competitive than the WCC. Not really even close.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 02, 2019, 10:17:49 AMI did not realize that you would invest this much energy into challenging Chicos just because he used obvious hyperbole when saying "absolutely no competition."
I'm not sure any poster on this site gets wound around the axle more by another than you do by Chicos. Considering how strongly some feel/felt about guru, wades, & Sultan, that's honestly quite the feat. If CBB started posting things like "the world is round" or "the sky is blue."
I don't think the facts of the matter will persuade you that Gonzaga dominates their league in a fashion no other program can compare to. The only thing that might change your mind is if Chicos changed his.
This is tedious even by the low low standards of scoop in the off season.
Jay Wright ... good Lowe's pitchman, or kind of lame?
Quote from: MU82 on May 02, 2019, 12:08:30 PM
Jay Wright ... good Lowe's pitchman, or kind of lame?
I think he's perfect. With his Philly accent, he comes across as the type of guy who'd do his own home improvements if he wasn't rich enough to pay someone to do it for him.
Quote from: Research Report on May 02, 2019, 01:15:25 PM
I think he's perfect. With his Philly accent, he comes across as the type of guy who'd do his own home improvements if he wasn't rich enough to pay someone to do it for him.
It's a better endorsement than the POS display for deodorant featuring Shaka Smart that was in my Walgreens right around the time we were recruiting him.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 02, 2019, 02:22:57 PM
It's a better endorsement than the POS display for deodorant featuring Shaka Smart that was in my Walgreens right around the time we were recruiting him.
If only Mrs. Shaka had said what the woman in the old Irish Spring commercial used to say:
"I like it, too!"
Quote from: Johnny B on April 30, 2019, 02:57:00 PM
That's pretty crazy to turn down that kinda cash
See if this makes any sense.
If there is sufficient water to sustain life, life is good. If you have too much water, it is called a flood.
If there is sufficient money to sustain life, life is good. If you have too much money, it has little value and is treated as such. The point is money provides pleasure and happiness up to a point. For Jay Wright he recognizes his existing millions are sufficient and after that point money becomes less and less meaningful.
For some there is never enough money but in those cases money is not the real issue in their lives and more money will not scratch that itch.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 02, 2019, 10:35:01 AM
It's actually a combination of two seta of facts. If St Mary's is no good, if St Mary's offers zero competition to Gonzaga (both false) what does that say about the Big East? Per Pomeroy, last year St Mary's was better than every team in the Big East, including Villanova. In 2017, they were better than everyone but Villanova. The LOWEST they've been ranked in the last 4 years is 34th in the nation. They tied Gonzaga for the conference championship in 2015 and finished one game back in 2017 and 2018. They beat the Zags this year (2019) for the conference tournament title, something they've now done 3 times in the last 10 years. Again, to characterize that as non competitive is insane.
I never said St. Mary's is no good, but Gonzaga has no competition in that league. That is not insane or inaccurate. Your comparisons of Ken Pom are equally weak, in my opinion. St. Mary's may be consistently around 30 or whatever, but the Big East teams will come in and out (different ones) that are better to compete at a higher rate. Any number of four or 5 schools. Even schools lower on the list like St. John's can knock off MU or Villanova.....the 6th or 7th place schools in the WCC aren't knocking off Gonzaga.
In the last 19 years, they have won the league 18 times and finished second the other time. They have no competition.
Wooda bin a lateral move. Bread kneeded ta double just ta keep up wit hyer cost of livin' in CA, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 02, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Wooda bin a lateral move. Bread kneeded ta double just ta keep up wit hyer cost of livin' in CA, hey?
was thinking the same thing and traffic sucks the big one
we looked up the house we lived in 1959-1961, a 900 sq ft. match box in san diego. it's fair market value is between $6-700,000 and property taxes are over $40K.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on May 02, 2019, 07:59:34 PM
was thinking the same thing and traffic sucks the big one
we looked up the house we lived in 1959-1961, a 900 sq ft. match box in san diego. it's fair market value is between $6-700,000 and property taxes are over $40K.
Careful, 79 and Avid are going to divorce you.