UCLA offered to double Jay Wright’s deal...he said no

[willie warrior]

Tell us again how horrible it is to live amongst all those liberals, the first hundred times were so enrapturing.

Politics

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.

But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.

Right.  They occasionally face another decent team.  Congrats on being...kinda correct????

You should hang a banner.

[Lennys Tap]

Absolutely moronic statement. Last year alone the Big East got two #1 seeds. The WCC only got 1 team in the NCAA tournament. The Big East got 6.

In 2016-17, Butler a 4 seed, was significantly better than St. Mary's (7-seed). The Big East got 7 teams in the tournament, the WCC only 2. The BE had 3 teams with higher seeds than St. Mary's.

In 2015-16, Gonzaga was the only team to make the NCAA tournament as an 11 seed. The WCC had no ranked teams. The BE got 5 teams in the tournament. Two 2-seeds, a 6-seed, and two 9-seeds. All higher than Gonzaga.

Facts still matter.

Facts do matter.

Claiming that #25 in Pomeroy Butler was "significantly better" than #15 St Marys because they were a 4 seed instead of a 7 is a perfect example of a moronic statement. If they played on a neutral court St Marys would have been a 2 point favorite, but you and the morons who seed the NCAA tournament know more about who's better than Vegas? No freakin' way. You're a man of science but for some reason can't grasp this. Can't figure out why.

[GooooMarquette]

So how 'bout that Jay Wright?

[Lennys Tap]

Right.  They occasionally face another decent team.  Congrats on being...kinda correct????

You should hang a banner.

Thanks, Fluffy.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Politics

Agreed, Chicos needs to stop constantly insinuating his brand of politics into discussions.

[willie warrior]

Agreed, Chicos needs to stop constantly insinuating his brand of politics into discussions.

As you should, sir!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.

But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.

You were the one who brought the new Big East into it by comparing the two.

I don't consider facing 1 team even capable of making an at large bid 2 maybe 3 times a year to be competition for a team that perennial finishes in the top 10. If you do, mazal tov, your definition of competition is different than mine.

[Billy Hoyle]

I use Pomeroy because I think they are much more accurate than the AP, USA Today or the NCAA seeding committee. If you're looking for teams to fade in the NCAA tournament check out the teams who according to his rankings are over seeded. Works pretty well. By their standards, St Marys (31) was slightly better than MU in 2019 and Georgetown (22) was only slightly better than BYU (28) in 2015.

But that's not really the point. I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the WCC is equal to or better than the new Big East. They're not. But to say that Gonzaga faces absolutely no competition is just plain false.

Are we really have a conversation comparing the Big East and WCC?

The only legitimate competition GU has for the conference title is SMC and BYU.  Nova has the entire rest of the conference (except DePaul).

SMC, fairly or not, had to win the conference tournament to get into the dance this year so the conference could get two teams in. The WCC also had a number of 200+ RPI teams and no teams that even made the NIT.

[Cheeks]

then move...if my wife complained as much as you i'd get a divorce.

I am, 14 months.  Soon as youngest completes school.  Pretty simple.

Canning wait.

[WarriorFan]

How humiliating for Cronin to have basically accepted the job and then forced to wait while UCLA tried to find someone better.  Now he is basically an expensive rental and they will most likely continue recruiting until they find someone they really want... at which point he's gone and in with the next..


Additionally, I'm not sure I'd want to be one of the top 4 paid government employees in the People's Republic of California when surely some of the commies that run the place would like nothing more than to equalize government salaries - just like they'd like to equalize all salaries.   That's a target I'd rather not have on my back.  Not when you can get the same salary at a good school that actually wants you there.

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/22/top-california-public-salaries-go-to-coaches-doctors/

[Cheeks]

Absolutely no competition? Here are the average Pomeroy final rankings for the last 4 years:

St Marys    28

Xavier       31.2
Butler       36.8
Creighton  38.2
Seton Hall 41.2
MU           53.8
Providence61.5
GTown      81.2
St Johns   118.6
DePaul     145.6

Now that I have proven beyond any doubt that your statement was patently false will you please a) eat a large helping of crow and b) "man up" (? whatever TF that means) and give some money to the charity of my choice?

PS - I am, of course, kidding about the money. It would be beyond weird to raise money for charity that way.

Normally competition comes from all the teams in a conference, apparent the WCC now is a two conference entity which I wasn’t aware of.

The grind of having to play tough game after tough game does not exist in the WCC whether SMS hangs around as a semi-decent alternative or not. 

I stand by my statement.  Meanwhile, about that pressure applies to Sam at Georgetown....we’re all still waiting.

[Jockey]

What incredible insight.

What is genuinely hilarious is that the Big East is no better.

What an incredible jerk.

I was simply replying to another poster - not trying to offer deep insight.

[Lennys Tap]

Are we really have a conversation comparing the Big East and WCC?
 

No. We're having a conversation about whether there is even one decent team in the WCC besides Gonzaga. I say St Mary's qualifies. Chico says no.

What say you, Billy?

[LAZER]

No. We're having a conversation about whether there is even one decent team in the WCC besides Gonzaga. I say St Mary's qualifies. Chico says no.

What say you, Billy?

You also said that over the last few years St Mary's has been better than everyone in the BE minus Villanova...which has been proven wrong.

[Lennys Tap]

You also said that over the last few years St Mary's has been better than everyone in the BE minus Villanova...which has been proven wrong.

No, I said that St Mary's average Pomeroy ranking over the last 4 years is higher than any Big East team other than Villanova. Which is correct (do the math).

I use Pomeroy because I believe they are more accurate than the AP and USA Today polls and the NCAA seeding committee. Las Vegas agrees with me. You obviously don't. But in no way have I been "proven" wrong.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

No, I said that St Mary's average Pomeroy ranking over the last 4 years is higher than any Big East team other than Villanova. Which is correct (do the math).

I use Pomeroy because I believe they are more accurate than the AP and USA Today polls and the NCAA seeding committee because my argument would be 100% trash instead of 80% trash otherwise.  Las Vegas agrees with me. You obviously don't. But in no way have I been "proven" wrong.

FIFY

[Billy Hoyle]

No. We're having a conversation about whether there is even one decent team in the WCC besides Gonzaga. I say St Mary's qualifies. Chico says no.

What say you, Billy?

I say there are two - SMC and BYU.

BYU has gone into the Kennel and knocked off the Zags on Senior Day two of the last three years. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No, I said that St Mary's average Pomeroy ranking over the last 4 years is higher than any Big East team other than Villanova. Which is correct (do the math).

I use Pomeroy because I believe they are more accurate than the AP and USA Today polls and the NCAA seeding committee. Las Vegas agrees with me. You obviously don't. But in no way have I been "proven" wrong.

But if you use the Pomeroy rankings of the 2nd best Big East team every year, have been better than the 2nd best WCC team every year but 1. St. Mary's is consistently a top 35ish team but has only been in KenPom's top 30 once in the past 6 years. Meanwhile, Villanova has had to face at least one KenPom top 30 team every year but one, and most years they have to face multiple top 30 teams.

Compared to Villanova/Big East, the competition Gonzaga faces in the WCC is laughable.

[Lennys Tap]

FIFY

I can't help the ignorant who insist on remaining ignorant. You're exhibit A, Fluffy Blue One.

[Lennys Tap]

But if you use the Pomeroy rankings of the 2nd best Big East team every year, have been better than the 2nd best WCC team every year but 1. St. Mary's is consistently a top 35ish team but has only been in KenPom's top 30 once in the past 6 years. Meanwhile, Villanova has had to face at least one KenPom top 30 team every year but one, and most years they have to face multiple top 30 teams.

Compared to Villanova/Big East, the competition Gonzaga faces in the WCC is laughable.

TAMU,

More straw men. Remember the initial discussion. Someone said there was absolutely no competition for Gonzaga in the WCC. The simple FACT is that St Mary's has been, per KenPom, on average better than Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, Georgetown, St John's and DePaul over the last 4 years. Given that FACT (however you choose to interpret it) is there any doubt that at least one program in the WCC has been competitive?

[brewcity77]

TAMU,

More straw men. Remember the initial discussion. Someone said there was absolutely no competition for Gonzaga in the WCC. The simple FACT is that St Mary's has been, per KenPom, on average better than Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, Georgetown, St John's and DePaul over the last 4 years. Given that FACT (however you choose to interpret it) is there any doubt that at least one program in the WCC has been competitive?

I would say that's pretty disingenuous. The Big East has multiple programs that provide competition. Just because it's Creighton one year, Georgetown or Xavier another, those programs are providing far more competition to Villanova than St. Mary's is to Gonzaga. You use St. Mary's average of 28, but the second place team in the Big East over the same period averaged 21.8 in kenpom ranking. If you go back 6 years, the average is 21 for the Big East runner up and the WCC runner-up is 31.5, and the distance to the teams below #2 is even more stark.

St. Mary's is a consistently decent team. They are seldom as good as the teams that are lining up behind Villanova. And that it's a different team every year shows that the Big East is both stronger and deeper.

[Lennys Tap]

I would say that's pretty disingenuous. The Big East has multiple programs that provide competition. Just because it's Creighton one year, Georgetown or Xavier another, those programs are providing far more competition to Villanova than St. Mary's is to Gonzaga. You use St. Mary's average of 28, but the second place team in the Big East over the same period averaged 21.8 in kenpom ranking. If you go back 6 years, the average is 21 for the Big East runner up and the WCC runner-up is 31.5, and the distance to the teams below #2 is even more stark.

St. Mary's is a consistently decent team. They are seldom as good as the teams that are lining up behind Villanova. And that it's a different team every year shows that the Big East is both stronger and deeper.

Brew,

I wouldn't disagree that there is usually a team in the Big East other than Villanova who is better than St Mary's. And i'm absolutely in agreement that the Big East, top to bottom, is much stronger than the WCC. All that said, 1. St Mary's, despite protestations to the contrary, is and has been a very competitive program for some time and 2. According to Pomeroy they have been, on average, better than each of the 9 teams in the Big East not named Villanova over the last 4 years.

#1 is the key, I only added #2 to show just how off the wall ridiculous it was for someone to say that St Mary's wasn't a competitive team/program.

How any of this is disingenuous eludes me.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU,

More straw men. Remember the initial discussion. Someone said there was absolutely no competition for Gonzaga in the WCC. The simple FACT is that St Mary's has been, per KenPom, on average better than Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, Georgetown, St John's and DePaul over the last 4 years. Given that FACT (however you choose to interpret it) is there any doubt that at least one program in the WCC has been competitive?

No straw man, trying to point that the data is misleading. St. Mary's is consistent, that doesn't make them good competition. In the 18 years of KenPom, St. Mary's has finished above 30th exactly 3 times, and the top 25 1 time. I wouldn't call them competition for a team like Gonzaga who has 7 top 10 finishes in the same time. If you do, that's fine, we have different definitions of competition. Especially when that's the best Gonzaga's conference has to offer.

[Lennys Tap]

No straw man, trying to point that the data is misleading. St. Mary's is consistent, that doesn't make them good competition. In the 18 years of KenPom, St. Mary's has finished above 30th exactly 3 times, and the top 25 1 time. I wouldn't call them competition for a team like Gonzaga who has 7 top 10 finishes in the same time. If you do, that's fine, we have different definitions of competition. Especially when that's the best Gonzaga's conference has to offer.

You're going back 18 years and MY data is misleading? The "new" Big East is 6 years old - let's confine our research to that time period.

In those 6 years St Mary's has been judged by Pomeroy to be better than Villanova 1x, better than Xavier 2x, better than Butler 3x, better than Creighton, Seton Hall, Providence, Georgetown and St John's 4x and better than Marquette and DePaul 6x.
Their average ranking is #40, 8 spots lower than Xavier but higher than the other 8 Big East teams not named Villanova.

Now, you're free to say that their resume' makes them "non competitive" with Gonzaga over that period (I would very much disagree) but only if you acknowledge that the "little 8" of the Big East has been even more "non competitive" with Villanova over the same period.

All that said, I agree with Billy that only St Mary's and BYU offer any meaningful competition to the Zags and that the middle of their conference is far weaker than the Big East. Still, St Mary's has been better overall than any of the new Big East except for Villanova and Xavier. That makes them competitive by any fair standard.