Watching the Zags today was a pure joy. The quality of play is humbling. Refreshing.
We really do need to figure out how to make them being in the BE work. We need an injection after this past season.
If they dont mind flying all over the place sure why not.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 12:22:49 AM
We really do need to figure out how to make them being in the BE work. We need an injection after this past season.
They don't need us. They cut a deal to get a disproportionate share of their NCAA units.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/mar/26/gonzaga-strikes-a-deal-to-get-more-out-of-ncaa-tou/
Superbar.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 12:22:49 AM
We really do need to figure out how to make them being in the BE work. We need an injection after this past season.
If they could work out a MBB only deal, I agree that this would be fantastic. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.
Quote from: Jon on March 28, 2019, 11:59:19 PM
Watching the Zags today was a pure joy. The quality of play is humbling. Refreshing.
I mean, they were OK. Could have just been an off night, or maybe it was FSU's defense, but that's not going to get it done this weekend.
It's gotta be hard for Few to keep their edge since they rarely play many quality teams after the calendar turns.
Work on a teleportation device.
I've always been a low-level Gonzaga fan because my brother went there. I'm amazed how frequently I'll be talking with someone about college basketball and Gonzaga comes up and the response from them is how often Gonzaga chokes. It absolutely amazes me. This is a little school in the middle of nowhere that has made itself a national power. The overwhelming majority of programs in the country would sell their souls to sniff the success that Gonzaga has had for the last couple decades. I'm obviously aware that they haven't won the big one (and only made on FF), but come on...their record is the envy of most majors, much less mid-majors.
I would really love to seem the break through and win a championship.
Hachimura and Brandon Clarke are great players
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 29, 2019, 06:40:34 AM
If they could work out a MBB only deal, I agree that this would be fantastic. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.
My understanding is that this violates NCAA rules. I believe the only reason you are allowed to split your sports into different conferences is if your main conference doesn't offer the sport. So if we want Gonzaga, all the non-revenue sports come with them.
I would love to see them in the Big East. If there is a way the money makes sense, I hope they go for it. Not sure if that way exists.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 29, 2019, 08:04:10 AM
I've always been a low-level Gonzaga fan because my brother went there. I'm amazed how frequently I'll be talking with someone about college basketball and Gonzaga comes up and the response from them is how often Gonzaga chokes. It absolutely amazes me. This is a little school in the middle of nowhere that has made itself a national power. The overwhelming majority of programs in the country would sell their souls to sniff the success that Gonzaga has had for the last couple decades. I'm obviously aware that they haven't won the big one (and only made on FF), but come on...their record is the envy of most majors, much less mid-majors.
I would really love to seem the break through and win a championship.
Substitute "1967-1977" for now and you could substitute "Marquette" for "Gonzaga."
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 29, 2019, 08:21:42 AM
My understanding is that this violates NCAA rules. I believe the only reason you are allowed to split your sports into different conferences is if your main conference doesn't offer the sport. So if we want Gonzaga, all the non-revenue sports come with them.
I would love to see them in the Big East. If there is a way the money makes sense, I hope they go for it. Not sure if that way exists.
Viewing it through the non-rev sports perspective, I just don't see it. I know that my daughter even dreads the Creighton trip. It certainly doesn't help that the Big East has paired Creighton and Providence for travel purposes (at least for VB). The weekend Omaha-Providence trip is a real grind. I can't imagine them having to go all the way to Spokane. I'd think that if they did end up bringing Gonzaga in, they'd either pick up another school out west to pair them with for travel purposes, or they would pair them with Creighton. Then they'd pick up another school to pair with Providence (or shuffle someone else around).
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 12:22:49 AM
We really do need to figure out how to make them being in the BE work. We need an injection after this past season.
Please stop, not happening and they would be stupid to do it, just as we would.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 29, 2019, 08:04:10 AM
I've always been a low-level Gonzaga fan because my brother went there. I'm amazed how frequently I'll be talking with someone about college basketball and Gonzaga comes up and the response from them is how often Gonzaga chokes. It absolutely amazes me. This is a little school in the middle of nowhere that has made itself a national power. The overwhelming majority of programs in the country would sell their souls to sniff the success that Gonzaga has had for the last couple decades. I'm obviously aware that they haven't won the big one (and only made on FF), but come on...their record is the envy of most majors, much less mid-majors.
I would really love to seem the break through and win a championship.
Stability. They had many years of not going far but because their conference is so bad they would always get in. They could sell to recruits you will always make the tournament, and then it is a crapshoot where anything can happen. Little by little they got better and better. It helps that their history was marginal and didn't have fans going crazy if they got knocked out early like we do. Of course now they have a monster and will be interesting to see when Few retires what happens to them.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 29, 2019, 08:22:55 AM
Substitute "1967-1977" for now and you could substitute "Marquette" for "Gonzaga."
I agree that it is equally amazing -- probably more so -- what Marquette accomplished during the late 60s and 70s. Most obviously, because they picked up a championship.
Amazing what can happen when a coach is given 20 years at one job instead of being fired by impatient fans after 5.
More importantly, wee kneed to find a wey to becum watt da Zags consistently have becum as a basketball power, aina?
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2019, 08:47:47 AM
Amazing what can happen when a coach is given 20 years at one job instead of being fired by impatient fans after 5.
Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbingo
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2019, 08:47:47 AM
Amazing what can happen when a coach is given 20 years at one job instead of being fired by impatient fans after 5.
It amazes me how coach Few recruits foreign athletes and how he gets his team to play at the "elite" level when they must. That being said, I wonder how many would want Gonzaga in the Beast if Few was no longer at Gonzaga.
A friend in the college coaching ranks (Low D-1 assistant) tells me a lot of folks in CBB believe Gonzaga to actually be one of the more corrupt programs. The story is: getting money to players/families is much easier when doing it for international players, of which they've had plenty (Hachimura, Tillie and others this year).
Never pegged Few for this kind of a coach, but found it interesting to hear from someone in the biz.
Quote from: tower912 on March 29, 2019, 08:01:56 AM
Work on a teleportation device.
Teleportation, at least the initial technology, requires that the subject be destroyed - atom by atom - at the departure and then reassembled at the destination. This is going to give the road team a huge advantage, with essentially having a completely refreshed body and all every time they teleport.
Quote from: Benny B on March 29, 2019, 09:09:26 AM
Teleportation, at least the initial technology, requires that the subject be destroyed - atom by atom - at the departure and then reassembled at the destination. This is going to give the road team a huge advantage, with essentially having a completely refreshed body and all every time they teleport.
I know. But it is still preferable to a half dozen more cross country flights a year.
Quote from: KampusFoods on March 29, 2019, 09:08:21 AM
A friend in the college coaching ranks (Low D-1 assistant) tells me a lot of folks in CBB believe Gonzaga to actually be one of the more corrupt programs. The story is: getting money to players/families is much easier when doing it for international players, of which they've had plenty (Hachimura, Tillie and others this year).
Never pegged Few for this kind of a coach, but found it interesting to hear from someone in the biz.
I have no idea if Gonzaga is cheating, and I've been around long enough to know that anything is possible. That said, this sounds like something that people tell their boss when asked, "why can't we have the success Gonzaga is having?" When someone is kicking your ass, it's often preferable to accuse them of cheating than to just admit you're getting beat.
Honest question for those who follow recruiting much more closely than I: are these over-seas kids that Few is bringing in heavily recruited by other programs? Is Few winning recruiting battles with other high profile programs, or is he finding/developing hidden gems?
Donny Daniels spent a decade recruiting for Rick Majerus at Utah. He recruited many of UCLA's recent 3 Final Four teams. And he has spent many years since at Gonzaga under Few.
Donny is a great guy and recruiter. As for Zags possibly being dirty, the only thing that would surprise me in college ball today is if Wojo was running dirty program. Anyone else, any other program and I would believe it.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 29, 2019, 09:27:54 AM
Honest question for those who follow recruiting much more closely than I: are these over-seas kids that Few is bringing in heavily recruited by other programs? Is Few winning recruiting battles with other high profile programs, or is he finding/developing hidden gems?
Gonzaga has landed a fair number of top 100 kids, but they've built their recent success mostly through dominance in international recruiting and a handful of key transfers.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 08:56:24 AM
Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbingo
Nice try. It was a joke. Mark Few had immediate success and has sustained that. 2 S16s and another pair of tourney wins in those 5 years, never missing it. If Wojo had 1 quarter of that success, this board wouldn't be sick of him.
Quote from: JWags85 on March 29, 2019, 10:00:07 AM
Nice try. It was a joke. Mark Few had immediate success and has sustained that. 2 S16s and another pair of tourney wins in those 5 years, never missing it. If Wojo had 1 quarter of that success, this board wouldn't be sick of him.
It actually wasn't a joke. I'm not saying Wojo is or isn't the answer, but the more I look around, the more convinced I am that "4-5 years to judge" is enough time to give you an inkling. It's more likely 10-15 years before you know anything conclusive.
Does anyone else get the feeling that all of these calls for Gonzaga to join the Big East are merely a subconscious desire (on the part of the MU faithful) to embrace Mark Few's success and tenure at Gonzaga in an attempt to validate the sentiment that coaching stability and perennial tournament appearances is possible at MU?
Benny B
Spot on.
Quote from: Benny B on March 29, 2019, 10:48:32 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that all of these calls for Gonzaga to join the Big East are merely a subconscious desire (on the part of the MU faithful) to embrace Mark Few's success and tenure at Gonzaga in an attempt to validate the sentiment that coaching stability and perennial tournament appearances is possible at MU?
Maybe, but there were Gonzaga discussions at the end of the old Big East as the Catholic 7 discussed who else to invite and Gonzaga was amongst the teams. How real it was, who knows but the discussion was happening that long ago
Quote from: JWags85 on March 29, 2019, 10:00:07 AM
Nice try. It was a joke. Mark Few had immediate success and has sustained that. 2 S16s and another pair of tourney wins in those 5 years, never missing it. If Wojo had 1 quarter of that success, this board wouldn't be sick of him.
He didn't sustain it based on what is deemed successful on this board.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 12:22:49 AM
We really do need to figure out how to make them being in the BE work. We need an injection after this past season.
LOL. This one again.
Yeah, Gonzaga is going to fly their 35 member baseball team or 27 member soccer teams to road games against St. John's and Seton Hall, and Providence is going to fly their 15 member volleyball team to Spokane every year. I'm sure every conference member would be all about that Spokane/Omaha weekend swing. And, we all know about that direct Providence to Spokane flight.
Maybe if every team from every chartered. I'm sure a high roller like yourself could foot the bill for MU to do that. I'm sure Tennis and soccer would love to charter.
Quote from: Benny B on March 29, 2019, 10:48:32 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that all of these calls for Gonzaga to join the Big East are merely a subconscious desire (on the part of the MU faithful) to embrace Mark Few's success and tenure at Gonzaga in an attempt to validate the sentiment that coaching stability and perennial tournament appearances is possible at MU?
Sure, that would be great, too. Anything is possible, but our track record shows it will be very difficult. How many MU bball coaches have we had last as long was Few has? But yes, anything is possible and I would be a pig in mud of it happened.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 29, 2019, 11:25:44 AM
Maybe, but there were Gonzaga discussions at the end of the old Big East as the Catholic 7 discussed who else to invite and Gonzaga was amongst the teams. How real it was, who knows but the discussion was happening that long ago
No, there weren't. Few would leak that out to his buddies in the media but his AD was not in on that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2019, 10:08:28 AM
It actually wasn't a joke. I'm not saying Wojo is or isn't the answer, but the more I look around, the more convinced I am that "4-5 years to judge" is enough time to give you an inkling. It's more likely 10-15 years before you know anything conclusive.
Typical paradigm of someone whose career has been spent in the public sector.
Running a high major CBB team is a big business. Shareholders have a right to expect performance. I can see Larry Culp telling the Street that in 10-15 years... He would get laughed out of the room.
The starting point is the coach is running a business. And success doesn't mean harvesting annual championships. Success means being competitive for such. And that means consistently making The Dance because if you don't get invited you have Zero chance of winning.
Every school has its off season - UK can miss the Dance and lose to Robert Morris in the NIT but bounce back and make a deep run the next year. That is success.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 29, 2019, 12:24:52 PM
LOL. This one again.
Yeah, Gonzaga is going to fly their 35 member baseball team or 27 member soccer teams to road games against St. John's and Seton Hall, and Providence is going to fly their 15 member volleyball team to Spokane every year. I'm sure every conference member would be all about that Spokane/Omaha weekend swing. And, we all know about that direct Providence to Spokane flight.
Maybe if every team from every chartered. I'm sure a high roller like yourself could foot the bill for MU to do that. I'm sure Tennis and soccer would love to charter.
They send 27 for soccer now?
Boo f#cking hoo. Flying in a jet-powered aircraft from Providence to Spokane is cruel and unusual punishment.
Must be the modern day "Bataan Death March."
Remind the little princes and princesses on college scholarships that there are hundreds of thousands of other 18-22 year olds who spend days taking a bus to get to DFW or BWI where they board aircraft with jump seats to fly half way around the world to go to war.
There are no porters to carry their bags. No Hilton at the end of the line. No restaurant meal awaiting them on arrival.
My heart bleeds for the horrors to which we subject our poor college athletes.
Spare me.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
Boo f#cking hoo. Flying in a jet-powered aircraft from Providence to Spokane is cruel and unusual punishment.
Must be the modern day "Bataan Death March."
Remind the little princes and princesses on college scholarships that there are hundreds of thousands of other 18-22 year olds who spend days taking a bus to get to DFW or BWI where they board aircraft with jump seats to fly half way around the world to go to war.
There are no porters to carry their bags. No Hilton at the end of the line. No restaurant meal awaiting them on arrival.
My heart bleeds for the horrors to which we subject our poor college athletes.
Spare me.
Lol. Then quit crying about bad athletics results.
Quote from: Benny B on March 29, 2019, 09:09:26 AM
Teleportation, at least the initial technology, requires that the subject be destroyed - atom by atom - at the departure and then reassembled at the destination. This is going to give the road team a huge advantage, with essentially having a completely refreshed body and all every time they teleport.
But would the road team really have a huge advantage...or would it just neutralize the current home court advantage? And come to think of it, what would prevent the home team from teleporting to, say London, the night before the game, and returning shortly before game time? Would this reestablish the home court advantage?
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
Boo f#cking hoo. Flying in a jet-powered aircraft from Providence to Spokane is cruel and unusual punishment.
Must be the modern day "Bataan Death March."
Remind the little princes and princesses on college scholarships that there are hundreds of thousands of other 18-22 year olds who spend days taking a bus to get to DFW or BWI where they board aircraft with jump seats to fly half way around the world to go to war.
There are no porters to carry their bags. No Hilton at the end of the line. No restaurant meal awaiting them on arrival.
My heart bleeds for the horrors to which we subject our poor college athletes.
Spare me.
Crash, their travel budget would be insane. The wear and tear on missing classes, from constantly flying. It is one thing to do this for football where you travel 5 away games a year on a Friday and miss very little school. For every other sport, this is a nightmare. Not fair to the kids, to their alumni. Are Zags games at St John's going to start at 4:00pm local in a Wednesday? Or 9:00pm EST to screw the east coast market?
It makes zero sense on all levels. Well being of students, financially, budget, fans, etc.
Quote from: MUDPT on March 29, 2019, 01:00:01 PM
They send 27 for soccer now?
it depends on the roster size and coaching staff size.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 12:22:49 AM
We really do need to figure out how to make them being in the BE work. We need an injection after this past season.
I've been saying this for years.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
Boo f#cking hoo. Flying in a jet-powered aircraft from Providence to Spokane is cruel and unusual punishment.
Must be the modern day "Bataan Death March."
Remind the little princes and princesses on college scholarships that there are hundreds of thousands of other 18-22 year olds who spend days taking a bus to get to DFW or BWI where they board aircraft with jump seats to fly half way around the world to go to war.
There are no porters to carry their bags. No Hilton at the end of the line. No restaurant meal awaiting them on arrival.
My heart bleeds for the horrors to which we subject our poor college athletes.
Spare me.
I'm talking about budget costs. But when one is as self-important and bitter as you, I can see how you would so badly misconstrue it.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 29, 2019, 12:24:52 PM
LOL. This one again.
Yeah, Gonzaga is going to fly their 35 member baseball team or 27 member soccer teams to road games against St. John's and Seton Hall, and Providence is going to fly their 15 member volleyball team to Spokane every year. I'm sure every conference member would be all about that Spokane/Omaha weekend swing. And, we all know about that direct Providence to Spokane flight.
Maybe if every team from every chartered. I'm sure a high roller like yourself could foot the bill for MU to do that. I'm sure Tennis and soccer would love to charter.
I don't know why people act like this is so impossible. The University of Hawaii literally does this for every sport, including football which has way more athletes than anything Gonzaga fields.
It's too bad that Denver's basketball team hasn't done anything. Adding both Denver and the Zags would at least make it more of a logical extension.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
Boo f#cking hoo. Flying in a jet-powered aircraft from Providence to Spokane is cruel and unusual punishment.
Must be the modern day "Bataan Death March."
Remind the little princes and princesses on college scholarships that there are hundreds of thousands of other 18-22 year olds who spend days taking a bus to get to DFW or BWI where they board aircraft with jump seats to fly half way around the world to go to war.
There are no porters to carry their bags. No Hilton at the end of the line. No restaurant meal awaiting them on arrival.
My heart bleeds for the horrors to which we subject our poor college athletes.
Spare me.
You're smarter than this, Crash. If the standard for everything that we do with our kids is "but 18 year old kids go to war" then we might as well just disband college athletics. It's an impossible standard and you know it.
Is it a death march? Of course not. But is there
any corresponding benefit to offset the added time, expense and burden that would come with the cross country travel? None. Because you'd like to see a couple of additional quality basketball games each year, you think hundreds of kids -- many of whom tend to skew more toward the "student" side of "student-athlete" than a lot of basketball players -- should travel across the country a couple times a year.
The only school that would be inconvenienced is Gonzaga, and we could more than make up for it with TV revenue money.
One additional road trip per season for other schools is not a big deal.
Quote from: Coleman on March 29, 2019, 01:52:45 PM
I don't know why people act like this is so impossible. The University of Hawaii literally does this for every sport, including football which has way more athletes than anything Gonzaga fields.
I'm not sure I've seen anyone say it is impossible. It just doesn't make much sense. There really is only one reason kind of makes sense: Gonzaga has a great MBB program and as Big East fans, we'd love to see them play in our conference. There are many, many reasons it doesn't make sense ranging from logistical, financial, academic, etc.
Hawaii presents a very unique situation because they have no choice if they want to compete at the D1 level.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 12:22:53 PM
He didn't sustain it based on what is deemed successful on this board.
What the hell are you even talking about? Few has never missed the tourney. Hasn't lost in the first round in over a decade. Has lost in the first round 3 times in 20 years. This board can be irrational and emotional, but don't be obtuse. Nobody here has standards that Few and Gonzaga wouldn't meet. Don't confuse dreams of National Titles and FF runs with what is deemed "successful"
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 29, 2019, 02:06:01 PM
I'm not sure I've seen anyone say it is impossible. It just doesn't make much sense. There really is only one reason kind of makes sense: Gonzaga has a great MBB program and as Big East fans, we'd love to see them play in our conference. There are many, many reasons it doesn't make sense ranging from logistical, financial, academic, etc.
Hawaii presents a very unique situation because they have no choice if they want to compete at the D1 level.
Whether or not they have a choice they are demonstrating it can be done.
The Big East was founded as a basketball conference and it has always been a basketball conference. If MBB is the only reason it makes sense for Gonzaga to join the Big East, that is reason enough. Like it or not the other sports do not hold a candle to MBB.
Quote from: Coleman on March 29, 2019, 02:01:59 PM
The only school that would be inconvenienced is Gonzaga, and we could more than make up for it with TV revenue money.
One additional road trip per season for other schools is not a big deal.
I suspect that pretty much every athletic department in the Big East would strongly disagree with you.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 29, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
I'm talking about budget costs. But when one is as self-important and bitter as you, I can see how you would so badly misconstrue it.
I like you, Billy.
Quote from: Coleman on March 29, 2019, 01:52:45 PM
I don't know why people act like this is so impossible. The University of Hawaii literally does this for every sport, including football which has way more athletes than anything Gonzaga fields.
Um...... they don't have a choice.
Jockey
It warms my heart that you and Billy have each other. Nobody should ever be alone.
Quote from: Coleman on March 29, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
Whether or not they have a choice they are demonstrating it can be done.
Well, you go ahead and keep on arguing that point. I don't recall anyone taking the contrary opinion, but feel free to keep at it.
It's possible for me to fly to Santa Fe for lunch tomorrow. It can be done. Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 29, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
I'm talking about budget costs. But when one is as self-important and bitter as you, I can see how you would so badly misconstrue it.
Bitter?
I am told I am rather sweet. Unless I eat asparagus.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 29, 2019, 01:56:15 PM
It's too bad that Denver's basketball team hasn't done anything. Adding both Denver and the Zags would at least make it more of a logical extension.
They are already in the Big East and they win national championships in hockey and lacrosse so maybe a league upgrade would push them for a basketball upgrade.
Quote from: Jockey on March 29, 2019, 02:11:14 PM
Um...... they don't have a choice.
I think the point is not whether one has a choice, but rather is it even possible. If it's not possible, there's no choice any way.
That said, I do not know the specifics of Hawaii's situation, specifically whether they subsidize the travel costs of visiting teams to the island.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 03:02:47 PM
Bitter?
I am told I am rather sweet. Unless I eat asparagus.
bahahaha. Damn keefe it's nice to have you posting regularly again. very entertaining.
Quote from: Coleman on March 29, 2019, 01:52:45 PM
I don't know why people act like this is so impossible. The University of Hawaii literally does this for every sport, including football which has way more athletes than anything Gonzaga fields.
It is easier for football, games are on Saturday and you fly out on Friday, missing one day of school. There are typically 5 road games for football.
Hawaii's entire conference is in the state of California. They fly to LA, they play Northridge, then 2 days later UC Irvine, etc. One plane trip in, one out.
From November to January 17th they leave the state one time, and that's at Thanksgiving. After Jan 17th, a total of four road trips, nothing east of Los Angeles. Big East, you can bus from NYC to Philly, and Chicago to Milwaukee, but mostly you are going to be in a plane to plane situation.
You are right that it isn't impossible, but it would have to be where each trip is done in doubles, meaning Thursday / Saturday games on the road. Why would they want to do it? You're telling your alumni / fans that the games start at 4:00pm or 4:30pm....that isn't going to fly, or you are screwing over the team in NYC, Philly, etc to start their game at 9:00 or 9:30pm...that's not ideal.
But yes, not impossible....just feels highly impractical or financially sound for either party.
Just move the effin campus to a pot legal state out east. Spokane=Racine with no lake. Problem solved.
Gonzaga.....our pot smoking Jesuit brothers.
Quote from: Goose on March 29, 2019, 02:12:13 PM
Jockey
It warms my heart that you and Billy have each other. Nobody should ever be alone.
Goose,
I have never met Billy and wouldn't know him if I passed him on the street. But, he adds a lot to this board.
I Know that you like neither my politics nor his. I am fine with that, and my guess is that he is as well - although I don't presume to talk for him.
Quote from: Jockey on March 29, 2019, 06:32:39 PM
Goose,
I have never met Billy and wouldn't know him if I passed him on the street. But, he adds a lot to this board.
I Know that you like neither my politics nor his. I am fine with that, and my guess is that he is as well - although I don't presume to talk for him.
I have met Billy, but didn't realize it happened many years ago. We definitely have had some disagreements, but glad he is on the board. Good to have multiple people here with college athletics administrative background in my opinion.
Quote from: Jockey on March 29, 2019, 06:32:39 PM
Goose,
I have never met Billy and wouldn't know him if I passed him on the street. But, he adds a lot to this board.
I Know that you like neither my politics nor his. I am fine with that, and my guess is that he is as well - although I don't presume to talk for him.
Thank you, Jockey. I appreciate the kind words. I am not here to talk politics, just MU sports and keep things fun but yet accurate.
If your avatar signifies you as a Canadian then you are truly a good dude. I love visiting the Great White North and find the people there among the nicest and most welcoming anywhere. Plus, I love Strange Brew!
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 29, 2019, 06:03:30 PM
Just move the effin campus to a pot legal state out east. Spokane=Racine with no lake. Problem solved.
Gonzaga.....our pot smoking Jesuit brothers.
I have been to Spokane. A man cannot get a good kringle there if his life depended on it.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 06:36:11 PM
I have met Billy, but didn't realize it happened many years ago. We definitely have had some disagreements, but glad he is on the board. Good to have multiple people here with college athletics administrative background in my opinion.
Backyard Beer Summit II. Billy, how did you enjoy the free Disney tickets?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 29, 2019, 11:25:44 AM
Maybe, but there were Gonzaga discussions at the end of the old Big East as the Catholic 7 discussed who else to invite and Gonzaga was amongst the teams. How real it was, who knows but the discussion was happening that long ago
I know that the Zags to BEAST was looked at hard by both sides. A former neighbor who has done very well at MSFT played baseball at Gonzaga and was part of a Task Force they had to look at the opportunity.
Around that same time I had coffee with Bill Russell who said that Gonzaga, USF, St Mary's, Loyola Marymount, BYU, etc... had been queried about forming a Big West counterpart that would be the AL to the Big East's NL. Russell thought it had merit but this was 5 years ago.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 29, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
Backyard Beer Summit II. Billy, how did you enjoy the free Disney tickets?
Cracks me up every time. That's the phrase, correct? Wasn't in California by the way. It was with me, Cheeks and Billy.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 29, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
Backyard Beer Summit I
One of Scoop's finest moments. You simply cannot make up this sort of sh1t.
The fact that the Bail Bondsman continues to perpetuate the myth of the supposed Beer Summit, vociferously I might add, gives it that added luster worthy of a Scoop Hall of Shame moment.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 29, 2019, 06:55:02 PM
Thank you, Jockey. I appreciate the kind words. I am not here to talk politics, just MU sports and keep things fun but yet accurate.
If your avatar signifies you as a Canadian then you are truly a good dude. I love visiting the Great White North and find the people there among the nicest and most welcoming anywhere. Plus, I love Strange Brew!
Peace, Brother Goose.
Quote from: WarriorDad on March 29, 2019, 07:17:49 PM
Cracks me up every time. That's the phrase, correct? Wasn't in California by the way. It was with me, Cheeks and Billy.
You are not helping. I have offered an easy way to prove this stuff out if needed. BH doesn't live in Calif, but not for me to say where he does live. That's up to him if he wishes to share, though he kind of alluded to it in the weed comments. We met long ago, in a bourbon drenched city far far far away.
Quote from: WarriorDad on March 29, 2019, 07:17:49 PM
Cracks me up every time. That's the phrase, correct? Wasn't in California by the way. It was with me, Cheeks and Billy.
You've come a long way from 'what's a chicos'
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 07:22:18 PM
One of Scoop's finest moments. You simply cannot make up this sort of sh1t.
The fact that the Bail Bondsman continues to perpetuate the myth of the supposed Beer Summit, vociferously I might add, gives it that added luster worthy of a Scoop Hall of Shame moment.
Excuse me my dear Colonel, please shed additional light.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 07:24:43 PM
Excuse me my dear Colonel, please shed additional light.
Jams,
Thrilled to have you back. And i give you major respect for the whole Beer Summit Narrative. Scoop at its finest.
(https://i.imgur.com/BCGzeU2.jpg)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 29, 2019, 07:23:47 PM
You've come a long way from 'what's a chicos'
When they started making that reference it was initially ignored. I even went to the urban dictionary to see if there was some double meaning. What would the proper response have been?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 29, 2019, 06:55:02 PM
Thank you, Jockey. I appreciate the kind words. I am not here to talk politics, just MU sports and keep things fun but yet accurate.
If your avatar signifies you as a Canadian then you are truly a good dude. I love visiting the Great White North and find the people there among the nicest and most welcoming anywhere. Plus, I love Strange Brew!
More like he is embarrassed of the American flag so this is his form of protest.
Jockey and Billy
I would say that I am 99% certain I have never engaged in any political post on Scoop. I have little interest in others political views, I am here to talk MU ball. So, my guess you assume I would not agree with you and that is fine. Scoop is MU ball to me and little else.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 07:30:10 PM
More like he is embarrassed of the American flag so this is his form of protest.
There is an 8 year cycle where a small but loud-mouthed segment of America states they are moving to Canada. Not Mexico. Canada.
Of course they never do.
I love their conviction.
Quote from: Goose on March 29, 2019, 07:30:34 PM
Jockey and Billy
I would say that I am 99% certain I have never engaged in any political post on Scoop. I have little interest in others political views, I am here to talk MU ball. So, my guess you assume I would not agree with you and that is fine. Scoop is MU ball to me and little else.
Actually, you should have addressed this to me rather than adding Billy. He had no part in this. I just made a post in support of him.
But, I agree with your sentiment completely.
BTW, if you do want to know why I have the Canadian flag as an avatar, you can PM me and I would be glad to explain. It's really very simple.
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 07:32:51 PM
There is an 8 year cycle where a small but loud-mouthed segment of America states they are moving to Canada. Not Mexico. Canada.
Of course they never do.
I love their conviction.
Yes, I have mentioned this often....always Canada. Weird. LOL
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 29, 2019, 08:55:48 AM
More importantly, wee kneed to find a wey to becum watt da Zags consistently have becum as a basketball power, aina?
The key is getting guys to buy in enough to spend 5 years in the program. The foreign players are huge of course, but I think the key is Fews ability to find sleepers and transfers and put teams on the floor who are full of 5th year players. Gonzaga has 6 guys on the roster who have spent a redshirt year, either as a high school signee or as a transfer.
Jockey
You could have any flag you want as an avatar, provided you know ball. Again, this site means a lot to me as place to talk MU ball, little else. If I want to debate politics, I will bother the wonderful lady next to me in my bed.
Quote from: Jockey on March 29, 2019, 07:39:13 PM
Actually, you should have addressed this to me rather than adding Billy. He had no part in this. I just made a post in support of him.
But, I agree with your sentiment completely.
BTW, if you do want to know why I have the Canadian flag as an avatar, you can PM me and I would be glad to explain. It's really very simple.
No need, you already told everyone. Your post is still up in the NFL thread on why you did it...which is your right, of course.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 29, 2019, 08:16:07 PM
No need, you already told everyone. Your post is still up in the NFL thread on why you did it...which is your right, of course.
Life is about choices.
A few years ago I decided to focus my pigskin loyalty on my Michigan Wolverines. It is all the football I need or can stomach.
Go Blue!
Keefe
I am on the Blue pigskin bandwagon. I want Harbaugh to knock it out of the park.
With Urban gone, maybe Harbaugh will actually win a game that matters.
Quote from: Goose on March 29, 2019, 08:30:55 PM
Keefe
I am on the Blue pigskin bandwagon. I want Haurbaugh to knock it out of the park.
While back in WI the thing which struck me was how many people wear UW licensed clothing. It is far more common today than when I went to MU.
Now I guarantee the vast majority of the folks never set foot on that campus. And I guarantee some of the babushkas I see decked out in red likely have no idea UW plays football.
State pride? I think celebrating Holstein dairy cows is more apropos than Bucky badger sweatshirts.
But far more baffling are the UW graduates who seem to feel that UW - Madison is some sort of academic powerhouse akin to a Princeton. UW is a good, not great university. Anything beyond that is not wishful thinking; delusional is more like it. The way those arrogant sh1ts talk about their college one would think it is the finest university in America.
Quote from: tower912 on March 29, 2019, 08:34:35 PM
With Urban gone, maybe Harbaugh will actually win a game that matters.
Ouch!
But, true.
Quote from: Goose on March 29, 2019, 08:30:55 PM
Keefe
I am on the Blue pigskin bandwagon. I want Harbaugh to knock it out of the park.
as long as they beat bucky I am fine with big blue, not a Harbaugh fan but for some odd reason I want to see him succeed at the highest level.
Quote from: tower912 on March 29, 2019, 08:34:35 PM
With Urban gone, maybe Harbaugh will actually win a game that matters.
Maybe now that Meyer and Tressel have left Columbus Ohio might try to win without cheating!
Quote from: Jon on March 29, 2019, 12:53:31 PMTypical paradigm of someone whose career has been spent in the public sector.
What's the average length for coaches to get to their first Final 4? Their first National Championship?
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 29, 2019, 08:22:55 AM
Substitute "1967-1977" for now and you could substitute "Marquette" for "Gonzaga."
In a way similar ;however, I think our MU teams of that era were more feared by opponents than the Zags.
Quote from: Goose on March 29, 2019, 07:30:34 PM
Jockey and Billy
I would say that I am 99% certain I have never engaged in any political post on Scoop. I have little interest in others political views, I am here to talk MU ball. So, my guess you assume I would not agree with you and that is fine. Scoop is MU ball to me and little else.
Goose, I did not mean to insinuate you had. I certainly haven't seen any. If you feel I was out of line I am sorry.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 29, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
Backyard Beer Summit II. Billy, how did you enjoy the free Disney tickets?
Free? Man, I got screwed. I just got a meal voucher at Epcot Center and couldn't use it at the Morocco pavilion, >:(
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2019, 08:58:19 PM
What's the average length for coaches to get to their first Final 4? Their first National Championship?
I don't know the average length of time but here is a sample of coaches who have gotten to at least an Elite 8 within five years of being at a school.And this is not comprehensive by any means:
Self, Cal, Roy Williams, Stevens, Pearl, Lefty, Harrick, Shaka, Sean Miller, Denny Crum, Pitino, Knight, Lute, Calhoun, Donovan, Jack Gardner, Joe B., Tark, Phog, Fred Taylor, Bartow, Holland, Guthridge, Hugh Durham, Lou Henson, Ted Owens, Lee Rose, Tex Winter...etc...
I think this puts to rest the notion that a coach needs 12 years (or whatever ridiculous number you threw out) to get superior results at a school.
If I open up the aperture to include Sweet 16s within 5 years the number explodes.
I know you fancy yourself some sort of college hoops expert but I strongly recommend you stop dealing in hyperbole. All it does is discredit your arguments.
Fact is, Wojo's tenure at Marquette has been very pedestrian. Milquetoast results from a bland guy. Frankly, why should we have expected differently.
Numerous coaches have stepped in at a school and gotten to an Elite 8 or better within 5 years. Wojo can't even get to the Dance most years and when he does we get humiliated - most recently by a mid major of very slender accomplishment.
Personally, I expect much better. I demand excellence in all facets of my life. There is no reason why I shouldn't expect the same of my favorite sports enterprise.
ND sucks
Quote from: Jon on March 30, 2019, 03:44:12 AMSelf, Cal, Roy Williams, Stevens, Pearl, Lefty, Harrick, Shaka, Sean Miller, Denny Crum, Pitino, Knight, Lute, Calhoun, Donovan, Jack Gardner, Joe B., Tark, Phog, Fred Taylor, Bartow, Holland, Guthridge, Hugh Durham, Lou Henson, Ted Owens, Lee Rose, Tex Winter...etc...
And how many of those were working their first head coaching job? Self didn't even have a NCAA appearance in his first 5 seasons as a head coach. Cal didn't get to the Elite 8 until year 7. Calhoun didn't make it out of the first weekend until his 18th season as a head coach.
I know you fancy yourself some Renaissance man, but you should've stopped right here:
Quote from: Jon on March 30, 2019, 03:44:12 AM
I don't know
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2019, 08:31:27 AM
And how many of those were working their first head coaching job? Self didn't even have a NCAA appearance in his first 5 seasons as a head coach. Cal didn't get to the Elite 8 until year 7. Calhoun didn't make it out of the first weekend until his 18th season as a head coach.
I know you fancy yourself some Renaissance man, but you should've stopped right here:
And how many took over a team that didn't even make the NIT?
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2019, 08:31:27 AM
And how many of those were working their first head coaching job? Self didn't even have a NCAA appearance in his first 5 seasons as a head coach. Cal didn't get to the Elite 8 until year 7. Calhoun didn't make it out of the first weekend until his 18th season as a head coach.
I know you fancy yourself some Renaissance man, but you should've stopped right here:
You are wrong. Admit it.
Cal got to a Final Four in Year 2 at UK. Calhoun got to an Elite 8 in Year 4 at UConn.
You are moving the goalposts. Admit your shame. It's ok. You were wrong.
Many coaches have arrived at a school and taken the team to at least an Elite 8 within the first 5 years. That is the hallmark of skill, talent, and expertise.
Unfortunately, our current coach has delivered very modest results in his first five years. Very modest indeed.
And frankly, I am very tired of seeing the "Wojo in the headlights" look of fear, despair, and bewilderment as yet another opponent humiliates us.
Renaissance Man? Well, if being part of a team of incredibly talented engineers solving real problems in power generation on 5 continents is being a Renaissance Man then I guess I am guilty. Some people make an impact. Others stand at the window.
brew is getting knocked around today.
Quote from: Jon on March 30, 2019, 03:44:12 AM
I don't know the average length of time but here is a sample of coaches who have gotten to at least an Elite 8 within five years of being at a school.And this is not comprehensive by any means:
Self, Cal, Roy Williams, Stevens, Pearl, Lefty, Harrick, Shaka, Sean Miller, Denny Crum, Pitino, Knight, Lute, Calhoun, Donovan, Jack Gardner, Joe B., Tark, Phog, Fred Taylor, Bartow, Holland, Guthridge, Hugh Durham, Lou Henson, Ted Owens, Lee Rose, Tex Winter...etc...
I think this puts to rest the notion that a coach needs 12 years (or whatever ridiculous number you threw out) to get superior results at a school.
Your list includes a significant number of coaches that put their programs in trouble with the NCAA. Self, Cal, Pearl, Harrick, Miller, Crum, Pitino, Calhoun, Tark, Durham, Henson, Joe B Hall, Lute Olson.
Roy Williams, not in trouble with the NCAA, but terrible academic scandal while he was coach.
Quote from: WarriorDad on March 30, 2019, 12:45:29 PM
Your list includes a significant number of coaches that put their programs in trouble with the NCAA. Self, Cal, Pearl, Harrick, Miller, Crum, Pitino, Calhoun, Tark, Durham, Henson, Joe B Hall, Lute Olson.
Roy Williams, not in trouble with the NCAA, but terrible academic scandal while he was coach.
While Keefe is correct, this also needs to be noted.
The goal is a sustainable, clean, competitive program. Imagine if McDermott coached here, cheating and lackluster results.
Quote from: PTM on March 30, 2019, 02:13:53 PM
The goal is a sustainable, clean, competitive program.
Has anyone achieved this?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 30, 2019, 02:16:12 PM
Has anyone achieved this?
Wright. Beilein. Painter. Ryan. McCaffery. Brey. Few. Matta. Altman. Krueger. Hamilton. Dixon. Cronin.
Just coaches off the top of my head with sustainable success without major issues.
Quote from: Jon on March 30, 2019, 11:59:25 AM
You are wrong. Admit it.
Cal got to a Final Four in Year 2 at UK. Calhoun got to an Elite 8 in Year 4 at UConn.
You are moving the goalposts. Admit your shame. It's ok. You were wrong.
No goalposts moved. I just don't ignore years of work as a head coach like you want to do. My takes are consistent and I research them rather than just inaccurately using my gut. Yours are just being a whiner because that's what you always do best. ❄️❄️❄️
Quote from: PTM on March 30, 2019, 02:26:26 PM
Wright. Beilein. Painter. Ryan. McCaffery. Brey. Few. Matta. Altman. Krueger. Hamilton. Dixon. Cronin.
Just coaches off the top of my head with sustainable success without major issues.
You might want to fact check that list.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 30, 2019, 02:16:12 PM
Has anyone achieved this?
Do you believe it cannot be done, or that we should not aspire to play within the rules because you believe no on one else is?
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2019, 02:32:12 PM
No goalposts moved. I just don't ignore years of work as a head coach like you want to do. My takes are consistent and I research them rather than just inaccurately using my gut. Yours are just being a whiner because that's what you always do best. ❄️❄️❄️
You mean...like you are whining right now??
A guy takes over a program he is usually involved in a rebuild. Not always but usually. And solid coaches have delivered results within 5 years.
Your assertion of 12 years is absurd. No business would ever accept such a bizarre time line.
So let's face the fact that you moved the goalposts. You are wrong. Admit it, Brew. There is no shame in making a mistake. In fact, it can be liberating in certain ways.
Quote from: Jon on March 30, 2019, 05:21:35 PM
You mean...like you are whining right now??
A guy takes over a program he is usually involved in a rebuild. Not always but usually. And solid coaches have delivered results within 5 years.
Your assertion of 12 years is absurd. No business would ever accept such a bizarre time line.
So let's face the fact that you moved the goalposts. You are wrong. Admit it, Brew. There is no shame in making a mistake. In fact, it can be liberating in certain ways.
Exhibit A:
Tom Izzo hired 1995-96 season. First head coaching job. Age 40
Tom Izzo delivered National Championship 1999-2000 Season 5
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 30, 2019, 10:02:39 PM
Exhibit A:
Tom Izzo hired 1995-96 season. First head coaching job. Age 40
Tom Izzo delivered National Championship 1999-2000 Season 5
There's only one guy this millennium that won a title faster. Anyone want to hire Kevin Ollie? He's available. Average first Final Four of the champions since 2000 is more than a decade. First title average is more than 15 years. Izzo is by far the exception, not the rule.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2019, 10:31:24 PM
There's only one guy this millennium that won a title faster. Anyone want to hire Kevin Ollie? He's available. Average first Final Four of the champions since 2000 is more than a decade. First title average is more than 15 years. Izzo is by far the exception, not the rule.
And Izzo was handed a team that was a 3-seed the year prior, and was coaching a program he had been part of for 12 years.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2019, 10:31:24 PM
There's only one guy this millennium that won a title faster. Anyone want to hire Kevin Ollie? He's available. Average first Final Four of the champions since 2000 is more than a decade. First title average is more than 15 years. Izzo is by far the exception, not the rule.
Yes I agree Izzo is the exception which is why he is a Hall of Fame coach. Izzo and Ollie's case show things can be achieved quickly.
Quote from: forgetful on March 30, 2019, 10:40:10 PM
And Izzo was handed a team that was a 3-seed the year prior, and was coaching a program he had been part of for 12 years.
That Prior year Michigan State team graduated two phenomal players Sean Respert and Eric Snow. What returned was a hodge podge of lead footed players much worse than what Wojo inherited .
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 30, 2019, 10:55:52 PM
Yes I agree Izzo is the exception which is why he is a Hall of Fame coach. Izzo and Ollie's case show things can be achieved quickly.
That Prior year Michigan State team graduated two phenomal players Sean Respert and Eric Snow. What returned was a hodge podge of lead footed players much worse than what Wojo inherited .
Izzo had been named coach in waiting. He could start recruiting for his program immediately and step in from day one. Ollie moved up the bench to replace Calhoun. Pretty much no transition needed.
People wanted to run Izzo during his third season. He couldn't be Michigan, let alone Detroit. I'd say patience was warranted.
The solution is staring us in the face: reach out and see if Izzo is interested in the job. If so, hire him. If not, let Wojo coach the team next year and reassess after the season.
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 30, 2019, 10:02:39 PM
Exhibit A:
Tom Izzo hired 1995-96 season. First head coaching job. Age 40
Tom Izzo delivered National Championship 1999-2000 Season 5
And no national titles from 2001 to 2018. Winning this thing is hard. He is an exception to the rule. It reminds me of Dean Smith who would take the Heels to the Final Four so many times (11), but only two championships. Hard thing to do in sports.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 31, 2019, 08:12:52 AM
The solution is staring us in the face: reach out and see if Izzo is interested in the job. If so, hire him. If not, let Wojo coach the team next year and reassess after the season.
The solution is staring us in the face: reach out and see if Izzo is interested in the job. If so, hire him. If not,
let Wojo coach the team next year and reassess after the season offer the job to pretty much anyone because Wojo ain't getting it done and another season is a waste of money.
Quote from: Jon on March 31, 2019, 12:57:20 PM
The solution is staring us in the face: reach out and see if Izzo is interested in the job. If so, hire him. If not, let Wojo coach the team next year and reassess after the season offer the job to pretty much anyone because Wojo ain't getting it done and another season is a waste of money.
Let's hire Crash. He can show the boys what a real workout is, schedule back to backs cross country because 18 year olds fly to Afghanistan so why can't they play basketball after lush flights, motivate the boys with stories and pictures of good looking females, etc. He'd no doubt do better than Wojo.
wades
You worried Wojo leaves for Va Tech this year?
Quote from: Goose on March 31, 2019, 01:37:13 PM
wades
You worried Wojo leaves for Va Tech this year?
Mother Goose,
In the grand scheme of things the opinion of wades on anything is meaningless.
God, I hope Wojo gets offered and leaves. What a reprieve. Lovell and our BoT need to grow a pair.
Crash
I wanted to see how rattled wades is about his boy. Sadly, there is no story at the moment.
Quote from: Goose on March 31, 2019, 01:42:36 PM
Crash
I wanted to see how rattled wades is about his boy. Sadly, there is no story at the moment.
Rattled? Seems like the only things rattled around Scoop are the flying obvjects.
❄️❄️❄️
Was hoping spring was here to stay, but things are frigid around Scoop.
Joe
Dave and I might grab a beer today on Mercer Island. Roanoke Inn.
We'll take you there on a visit to Seattle.
Crash
Give my best to Dave. Tell him I want chance to get my c note back.
Scoop has replaced texting, it seems.
Interesting that this thread started about being all about how wonderful the Zags are. I'm not sure I've seen a single reference to them losing to Texas Tech in here.
No shame in losing to Lubbock's finest. TTech is a talented, well-coached team. But a little surprised that given the topic of the thread it wasn't even mentioned.
Quote from: MU82 on March 31, 2019, 03:09:50 PM
Interesting that this thread started about being all about how wonderful the Zags are. I'm not sure I've seen a single reference to them losing to Texas Tech in here.
No shame in losing to Lubbock's finest. TTech is a talented, well-coached team. But a little surprised that given the topic of the thread it wasn't even mentioned.
Zags slurpers don't acknowledge losses.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 31, 2019, 03:05:40 PM
Scoop has replaced texting
Goose
Pakuni posted a dick pic in the Superbar. Think that was meant for Hilltopper?
Quote from: MU82 on March 31, 2019, 03:09:50 PM
Interesting that this thread started about being all about how wonderful the Zags are. I'm not sure I've seen a single reference to them losing to Texas Tech in here.
No shame in losing to Lubbock's finest. TTech is a talented, well-coached team. But a little surprised that given the topic of the thread it wasn't even mentioned.
I know many Zags.
After 20 consecutive years to The Dance the Zags do not suffer losses. They have an occasional unfortunate outcome.
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 31, 2019, 03:34:33 PM
Zags slurpers don't acknowledge losses.
Quote from: Jon on March 31, 2019, 04:31:39 PM
I know many Zags.
After 20 consecutive years to The Dance the Zags do not suffer losses. They have an occasional unfortunate outcome.
Ah. Thanks to both for the explanations.