MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2019, 08:49:59 AM
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I've seen this posted a few places. Figured I might as well say something now while everyone is gnashing their teeth anyway.
If Wojo leads this team to another 5 seed or better next season, and then loses in the first round, he will not be fired. You can rage and moan about it, but it simply will not happen (barring off the court issues). When is the last time that a coach was fired after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAAs without off the court issues? Has it happened in the modern era? If it has, when is the last time a coach was fired after leading a team to a 5 seed or better two years in a row? Marquette is not going to fire a guy who for 97% of the season had a top 20 team because the last 3% was an upset loss.
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That statement is 100% correct.
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Not to nitpick, but is your math right? 97% to 3%. Seems a bit off.
You’re probably right about Wojo. But he’ll be a dead man walking in terms of public opinion if that happens.
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One of the things that really frustrates me with Wojo is the fredom he gives these kids to shoot. I understand wanting to instill confidence and being a players coach, but we have kids that cant shoot or take horrible shots. Yet it never changes. Some coachs take the “well ur open for a reason” approach, wojo seems to take the “if ur open shoot it approach”. Brendan baileys instant jack fresh off the bench in the last minute of the first half is one of hundreds of examples. 2-4 point game marcus has sat down. We should be working to get multipke ball reversals and a shot for Sam while burning a bit of clock. Instead Joe C bring ball across half court n flips it to bailey who jacks a fading off balance deep 3. Horrible. Happens 5-10 times a game with this team.
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Not to nitpick, but is your math right? 97% to 3%. Seems a bit off.
You’re probably right about Wojo. But he’ll be a dead man walking in terms of public opinion if that happens.
We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
And so are your opinions. You believe Wojo is the be all. He ain't and deep inside you know it. But then again some of us dont easily swallow the spin.
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
thank you.
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I've seen this posted a few places. Figured I might as well say something now while everyone is gnashing their teeth anyway.
If Wojo leads this team to another 5 seed or better next season, and then loses in the first round, he will not be fired. You can rage and moan about it, but it simply will not happen (barring off the court issues). When is the last time that a coach was fired after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAAs without off the court issues? Has it happened in the modern era? If it has, when is the last time a coach was fired after leading a team to a 5 seed or better two years in a row? Marquette is not going to fire a guy who for 97% of the season had a top 20 team because the last 3% was an upset loss.
I agree. But if you are able to be 5 seed but keep getting blown out in the first round on national TV, then eventually you stop getting the players that allow you to be a 5 seed.
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
But we didn’t start the season there and weren’t in the top twenty for a good part of the early season
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Doesn't mean we can't call for it/talk about it. If what you said happens the majority of people will be calling for his job and rightfully so.
We're a basketball school who hasn't won a meaningful post-season game in 5 years? Got it.
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I agree. But if you are able to be 5 seed but keep getting blown out in the first round on national TV, then eventually you stop getting the players that allow you to be a 5 seed.
When (if) that happens, then that is a different conversation. Our roster has improved each year, next year's roster should have fewer holes in it than this year's. Keep making progress.
The blowout stuff is such nonsense. Did you win or not, survive and advance, etc, etc. Was MU unable to land the three amigos because they were blown out against KU? Of course not. We lost to a Final Four team two years ago, we lost to the highlight reel not named Zion and squad yesterday. Did Buzz getting blown out stop him? Al? Etc?
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But we didn’t start the season there and weren’t in the top twenty for a good part of the early season
I'm not talking about rankings. I'm saying that after 33 games, we were deemed to have the 17th best resume in the country.
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And so are your opinions. You believe Wojo is the be all. He ain't and deep inside you know it. But then again some of us dont easily swallow the spin.
My opinions are worth nothing, I'm some bum who lives in middle of nowhere Texas.
I don't believe Wojo is the be all. I'm still not sold which is concerning. I'm just realistic. No one is going to fire a coach after earning a 5 seed.
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Sure, TAMU is probably right. But if Wojo continues to get embarrassed on a national stage, that's going to begin having implications on the program. There's great tape of how to beat us, recruits could de-prioritize MU, players could lose confidence in the coaching, etc. And in the long run, that's the kind of stuff that hurts the program.
I do think he improved this year, but he's still got a long way to go. The Big East will be better next year, so he's going to have to continue making strides to compete for a title again.
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
Well that’s fine, but the committee was obviously wrong. No way they’re the 17th best team in country. They got destroyed by a mid major team. Big east was really bad this year and they lost 4/5 to end season. Howard went super man to beat K state and Buffalo. I’m waiting to see how Murray State plays against FSU to make a full opinion, but I see FSU winning that game.
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Marquette has decided at a very high level that basketball will be their identity and rallying cry. It is what unites the University in nearly every public effort. As such it needs to perform at a level higher than the average NCAA tourney participant. In a way MU has created these "lofty expectations".
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Well that’s fine, but the committee was obviously wrong. No way they’re the 17th best team in country. They got destroyed by a mid major team. Big east was really bad this year and they lost 4/5 to end season. Howard went super man to beat K state and Buffalo. I’m waiting to see how Murray State plays against FSU to make a full opinion, but I see FSU winning that game.
The committee wasn't wrong, but I probably shouldn't have said top 20 team. Top 20 is a subjective judgement. What I do know is that however good our team actually was, they put together the 17th best resume after 33 games.
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OOOohhhhhHOOOHhhhhhhh.
I didn't know that the goal for Marquette was to get a ~5 seed every year.
My bad. Wojo can stay indefinitely.
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When (if) that happens, then that is a different conversation. Our roster has improved each year, next year's roster should have fewer holes in it than this year's. Keep making progress.
The blowout stuff is such nonsense. Did you win or not, survive and advance, etc, etc. Was MU unable to land the three amigos because they were blown out against KU? Of course not. We lost to a Final Four team two years ago, we lost to the highlight reel not named Zion and squad yesterday. Did Buzz getting blown out stop him? Al? Etc?
You really think in terms of recruiting and reputation that a 20 point loss to mid-major is the same as losing at the buzzer to a Power 5 at large team? Come on.
Watching Morant make plays was not the embarrassing part. Watching guys take shots without any defenders within 15 was embarrassing. Shooting 32% from the floor, needing to get a stop and giving up an open basket, needing a bucket and turning the ball over, losing the 5th game out of the last 7 when we were favored... All those things are embarrassing. And they're not exactly uncommon in the Wojo era.
If you don't see why that would frustrate fans, then you need to set down the kool-aid for a minute.
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I'm not talking about rankings. I'm saying that after 33 games, we were deemed to have the 17th best resume in the country.
Point is we weren’t considered one of the best 20 teams in the country for 97% of the season and in hindsight we never really were one of the best 20 teams in the country.
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Team did well this year. Yes a disappointing end to the season and end of conference. But, we've all been looking ahead to next year, and I am in a big way (assuming all of the major pieces are back as expected).
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When (if) that happens, then that is a different conversation. Our roster has improved each year, next year's roster should have fewer holes in it than this year's. Keep making progress.
The blowout stuff is such nonsense. Did you win or not, survive and advance, etc, etc. Was MU unable to land the three amigos because they were blown out against KU? Of course not. We lost to a Final Four team two years ago, we lost to the highlight reel not named Zion and squad yesterday. Did Buzz getting blown out stop him? Al? Etc?
Did those guys get blown out twice in the first round?
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OOOohhhhhHOOOHhhhhhhh.
I didn't know that the goal for Marquette was to get a ~5 seed every year.
My bad. Wojo can stay indefinitely.
So....do you have an example of a coach getting fired after leading a team to a 5 seed in the NCAAs without off the court issues?
Personally, I would love a program that gets a 5 seed or better every season. Chances are more years than not that will result in a postseason run.
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My opinions are worth nothing, I'm some bum who lives in middle of nowhere Texas.
I don't believe Wojo is the be all. I'm still not sold which is concerning. I'm just realistic. No one is going to fire a coach after earning a 5 seed.
Ok, then get realistic about one other thing , our performance is not trending up, as shown by last 2 years and in spite of the spin. Wojo blew a great season out his ass over the last few weeks, and the team flamed out fantastically. That is not trending upward. And it is on his ass.So quit the excuse making and dpin.
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The committee wasn't wrong, but I probably shouldn't have said top 20 team. Top 20 is a subjective judgement. What I do know is that however good our team actually was, they put together the 17th best resume after 33 games.
Clearly something is wrong with the committee if Marquette was the 17th best resume and put up that performance. I guess you are just fine and dandy with being okay.
I on the other hand like geico, am not fine with just okay. I'm not okay with having the talent to he a top 10 team, lose 6 of the last 7, lose the big east championship then lose in the big east tournament then lose in the NCAA right away. If wojo pulls the exact same stunt next year he needs to go. Regardless if it's a 5 seed or not. What did we accomplish this year in tangible results? Get back to the NCAA tournament as a 1 and done? Were not depaul... we should not be excited about this.
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Tourney seeds under Crean: 3, 5, 6, 7, 8
Average 5.8
Tourney seeds under Buzz: 3, 3, 6, 6, 11
Average 5.8
Inconvenient truth: In the last 20 years, Marquette has only been seeded better 3 times than they were this year.
I understand people want more. I want more, too. But I also realize this type of season is a pretty common for Marquette.
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Tourney seeds under Crean: 3, 5, 6, 7, 8
Average 5.8
Tourney seeds under Buzz: 3, 3, 6, 6, 11
Average 5.8
Inconvenient truth: In the last 20 years, Marquette has only been seeded better 3 times than they were this year.
I understand people want more. I want more, too. But I also realize this type of season is a pretty common for Marquette.
Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.
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Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.
Agree, but I'll complain about the 5 seed. Because in five years on the job, that 5 seed is the best thing Wojo's done. Yay!
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Did this team outperform its roster for part of the season? Yes. This team had significant limitations that are part injury (Elliott) and part having a Grad point guard who did not turn out to be all that great. On Wojo, sure. But stuff happens. These issues are being addressed for next year and we've had a point guard in the system on the bench and should have Elliott back.
Did we underperform at the end of the season? Yes. NO doubt. Given the roster we still should have done better. Obviously our star was hurting, but they did not make that an excuse.
Am I overly concerned about the loss in the tourney? No. Why? Somewhat of a perfect storm. Matchups are key.
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Did this team outperform its roster for part of the season? Yes. This team had significant limitations that are part injury (Elliott) and part having a Grad point guard who did not turn out to be all that great. On Wojo, sure. But stuff happens. These issues are being addressed for next year and we've had a point guard in the system on the bench and should have Elliott back.
Did we underperform at the end of the season? Yes. NO doubt. Given the roster we still should have done better. Obviously our star was hurting, but they did not make that an excuse.
Am I overly concerned about the loss in the tourney? No. Why? Somewhat of a perfect storm. Matchups are key.
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OOOohhhhhHOOOHhhhhhhh.
I didn't know that the goal for Marquette was to get a ~5 seed every year.
My bad. Wojo can stay indefinitely.
I think the MU administration would be thrilled with that.
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It’s not as much the seed as it is the WINNING. Although a 5 seed has never won the whole enchilada, if they can get thru sweet 16(17%) then the elite 8 win goes up to 75% final 4 to 50%.
Big picture- get to the dance and freak the chit out of everyone and just f ‘ing win baby! Winning is fun and always has us wanting more! Umm, duh, right?
https://www.betfirm.com/seeds-national-championship-odds/
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Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.
Exactly. In the last 3 weeks, Wojo has been Hue Jackson-esque....just completely and utterly incompetent. Unlike Hue Jackson, Wojo has really, really good players on his team. He has had his five years...he can recruit, not coach, so he might be better off going back to being Coach K's assistant at Duke. There has been no magical 'upward trajectory' with Wojo. Seriously, time to move on, unless MU desires the mid-major trajectory it is currently on.
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The rebuild has been slow, but I do think that overall it's been a slow trend in the right direction. Wojo has a long way to go, but I do feel like he's improving as well. Sure, the end of the season was disappointing, in part because of heightened expectations (ie playing for a 2/3 seed) built by how good this team looked earlier in the season. I worked yesterday and could only catch parts of the game, but would a win then a loss to FSU change opinions? Maybe Murray State loses tomorrow? I also remember how upset this board was over a loss to South Carolina a few years ago.
Taking a step back, a top 2 finish/5 seed/24 win season with some very good wins against what are proving to be pretty good teams is pretty solid and more than met what I was hoping for at the beginning of the season, even if it's not what I thought we would do once we got into mid February. It's progress, which absolutely should continue for next year. Based on our roster (I think even Markus-less, even if half of the "new" posters on the board think he's awful), expectations should be challenging for the BEast title and a top 4 NCAA seed (along with the wins in and out of conference that would be needed to earn that), and I hold Wojo accountable for that.
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Exactly. In the last 3 weeks, Wojo has been Hue Jackson-esque....just completely and utterly incompetent. Unlike Hue Jackson, Wojo has really, really good players on his team. He has had his five years...he can recruit, not coach, so he might be better off going back to being Coach K's assistant at Duke. There has been no magical 'upward trajectory' with Wojo. Seriously, time to move on, unless MU desires the mid-major trajectory it is currently on.
LOL..what? Hue Jackson? The guy who won one game in two seasons?
Honestly, some people should go away for a few weeks until they regain the ability to make reasonable opinions.
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I do think he improved this year, but he's still got a long way to go. The Big East will be better next year, so he's going to have to continue making strides to compete for a title again.
We need to bring in an experienced coach as an assistant to help with the Xs and Os, making adjustments, and game planning.
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Yep we'll be in college basketball purgatory for quite some time. Good enough to beat the bottom and the middle. Not enough balls to even challenge the upper tier in a meaningful game. Fear of the unknown will prevent any decision makers from making a change. Apathy will eventually take hold of the fan base as season tickets decline. Then we'll be praying for a truly terrible season that makes it beyond obvious to everyone that a change must be made. Maybe by the late 2020s we'll have a coach and a team ready to compete on the national stage.
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So....do you have an example of a coach getting fired after leading a team to a 5 seed in the NCAAs without off the court issues?
Not that I know of. But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.
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LOL..what? Hue Jackson? The guy who won one game in two seasons?
Honestly, some people should go away for a few weeks until they regain the ability to make reasonable opinions.
I watched Hue's incompetent coaching and Wojo's coaching, especially down the stretch, was eerily similar. Prior to the Villanova game in Philly, I posted that it was a must-win game and people said I was wrong and called me stupid. But it turns out I was right.
I'm full of reasonable opinions. Hysterical that you would say my opinions are unreasonable when you tried to say OBJ didn't have anyone who could get the ball to him now that he is on the Browns....so ridiculous.
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I'm full of reasonable opinions. Hysterical that you would say my opinions are unreasonable when you tried to say OBJ didn't have anyone who could get the ball to him now that he is on the Browns....so ridiculous.
Not what I said.
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Not that I know of. But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.
He was trending in the wrong direction though.
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Not what I said.
Actually, it pretty much is what you said.
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Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.
Never said anyone was complaining about the 5 seed. The inconvenient truth is that this season was a typical good but nothing special season.
Marquette is 6-6 in the round of 64 in the last 20 years. 4-2 in the round of 32. 2-2 in the Sweet 16. 1-1 in the Elite 8. 0-1 in the Final Four.
Two conference titles in 20 years. Second place 3 times. No conference tournament titles, making the final just once.
Missed the tournament 8 times. 4 of those seasons went to NIT.
Those are the facts. Do with them what you will. I use them to frame my perspective. This year gets lumped in with many others. Not that great but not that bad. I definitely want more success but also feel this pretty much what Marquette is.
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
Then a top 20 team should certainly win at least one game in the NCAA tournament, right?? What f'n good is getting a 5 seed, if you lose by 20 to a freaking 12 seed?? Two NCAA appearances in 5 years...2 and what has he done with both of them?? Lost by 20 both times..His game plan yesterday was absolutely awful...that in and of itself should get him fired. Everyone knew they didn't have the quickness to stay in front of Morant...everyone except Wojo apparently. He makes no in game adjustments...or the one's he does make are small little tweaks. This was his best team in 5 years...they were on their way to being no worse than a 3 seed and then they...collapsed. One of the worst collapses I have witnessed in my years of following CBB. Then, he says yesterday that we will "have to examine why the late season slide happened". NOW?? After the season is over, you'll "examine" it?? That should have been fixed after the second loss in a row.
The admin now is perfectly content with a middling program, as long as they stay in trouble off the court...winning is secondary. That's complete and total BS to me. there are plenty of programs that have high expectations that stay out of trouble. If they aren't met, the Coach is fired. Not at MU though...Mid major results(or less than), are perfectly fine...that sickens me.
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Not that I know of. But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.
I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.
Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.
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I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.
Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.
Well said. This is where I'm at. No more next year. Time for some tangible accomplishments.
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Well said MUDish, well said.
However, I question whether Marquette and Board of Trustees want Marquette basketball to reach the next level?
Sadly, I agree with the original post, if the 2019 - 2020 season is a replay of this season, Wojo will remain the coach.
"Just good enough, is good enough for Marquette."
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I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.
Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.
Expectations certainly are not being met. You bring up a good point about how much money and time MU invests into men's basketball. If things continue going in this trend, I would advocate reallocating that money somewhere else, such as into academics. The men's basketball team can travel the same way the women's soccer team travels. If we are going to play like a mid-major under Wojo, perhaps we should limit our resources to mid-major level.
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Expectations certainly are not being met. You bring up a good point about how much money and time MU invests into men's basketball. If things continue going in this trend, I would advocate reallocating that money somewhere else, such as into academics. The men's basketball team can travel the same way the women's soccer team travels. If we are going to play like a mid-major under Wojo, perhaps we should limit our resources to mid-major level.
there have been a lot of bad takes in the last 18 hours. This one is the worst.
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I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.
Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.
Agreed.
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I've seen this posted a few places. Figured I might as well say something now while everyone is gnashing their teeth anyway.
If Wojo leads this team to another 5 seed or better next season, and then loses in the first round, he will not be fired. You can rage and moan about it, but it simply will not happen (barring off the court issues). When is the last time that a coach was fired after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAAs without off the court issues? Has it happened in the modern era? If it has, when is the last time a coach was fired after leading a team to a 5 seed or better two years in a row? Marquette is not going to fire a guy who for 97% of the season had a top 20 team because the last 3% was an upset loss.
This just goes to show you how mediocre this program has become. Settling year after year with no NCAA tournament wins. Its not where you are during 97% its where you finish anyone who disagrees has a loser mentality. I also hate when people brag about beating ranked teams months before selection sunday and say or we beat so and so when they were ranked in the top 15 and that team went out to be .500. 97% of the season we were a top 20 team. But eh 3% we were not even a top 100 team. You and many posters on here continue to defend wojo game after game. Maybe its because you dont want him fired because another rebuild would take another 5+ years but I am tired with the lack of defense, lack of rebounding this team has year after year.
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Not that I know of. But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.
And he was fired after going 14-15 with no postseason. Not after a 5 seed.
And c'mon Hilltopper, anyone can see that Deane was trending down while Wojo is trending up.
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This just goes to show you how mediocre this program has become. Settling year after year with no NCAA tournament wins. Its not where you are during 97% its where you finish anyone who disagrees has a loser mentality. I also hate when people brag about beating ranked teams months before selection sunday and say or we beat so and so when they were ranked in the top 15 and that team went out to be .500. 97% of the season we were a top 20 team. But eh 3% we were not even a top 100 team. You and many posters on here continue to defend wojo game after game. Maybe its because you dont want him fired because another rebuild would take another 5+ years but I am tired with the lack of defense, lack of rebounding this team has year after year.
Lack of defense and rebounding? Those were probably the two biggest areas of improvement from last year to this year.
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Gladwell has studied true successful leaders in business. He found the 8-9 mark is when their highest level of success occurs. He also said they are usually home grown and you never really hear about them.
In sports, that cycle is compressed as you have wins and losses. This was why I argued Wojo should have come in Pole Whacking his first year so he could get to his style of players sooner like Kieger did. That said, he has successfully taken MU from Point A to Point B. Point C is what Dish is talking about (winning the Big East and/or BET, something that Kieger has done). Point D is the Jay Wright level (Gladwell) where he can reload. Almost all fans, administrators, and BOT would be fine with sustained Point C.
Wojo had numerous chances to hit Point C this year year. He whiffed over the past three weeks on something that was very achievable (just one win at home...or a BET Saturday performance or a Round 1 NCAA win). This is where Scoop is hung up. Some expect C today, some can see it next year. But, tangibly, Wojo is still at Point B.
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Well that’s fine, but the committee was obviously wrong. No way they’re the 17th best team in country. They got destroyed by a mid major team. Big east was really bad this year and they lost 4/5 to end season. Howard went super man to beat K state and Buffalo. I’m waiting to see how Murray State plays against FSU to make a full opinion, but I see FSU winning that game.
Let’s see what MSU does the rest of the way before making that claim.
Again, MU beat a 4, 5, two 6’s, a 7, a 10 already this year.
If MSU goes deep on their crapshoot run, then maybe it was they who were under seeded, right? Goes both ways.
What if MU played St Mary’s yesterday, a likely win. Would that mean we were correctly seeded? You guys are assigning results based on the seed without looking at who they played or what another similarly seeded team would be as an opponent. Example, we are a 5...So is Wisconsin. We beat Wisconsin this year, but they may win their opening game. It DEPENDS who you play!!!!
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This just goes to show you how mediocre this program has become. Settling year after year with no NCAA tournament wins. Its not where you are during 97% its where you finish anyone who disagrees has a loser mentality. I also hate when people brag about beating ranked teams months before selection sunday and say or we beat so and so when they were ranked in the top 15 and that team went out to be .500. 97% of the season we were a top 20 team. But eh 3% we were not even a top 100 team. You and many posters on here continue to defend wojo game after game. Maybe its because you dont want him fired because another rebuild would take another 5+ years but I am tired with the lack of defense, lack of rebounding this team has year after year.
We were the number 1 defense in the Big East, and I believe one of the top rebounding teams.
I want NCAA tournament wins. Getting a high seed is the best way to do that. Sometimes you get a high seed and still lose. Doesn't mean you didn't have a good season.
And again, what program has ever fired a coach after earning a 5 seed or better barring off the court issues? If the answer is nobody, why would it be reasonable to expect Marquette to do something different?
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there have been a lot of bad takes in the last 18 hours. This one is the worst.
Why invest in bad stock (Wojo) when you can instead put the money into more attractive start-up packages to recruit better academic talent and raise the profile of the university the right way?
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And again, what program has ever fired a coach after earning a 5 seed or better barring off the court issues? If the answer is nobody, why would it be reasonable to expect Marquette to do something different?
It would be a bad idea. What good coach would want to take a job that you get fired for being a 5 seed and loses in the 1st round? Answer is, not a good coach or not an top assistant.
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Why invest in bad stock (Wojo) when you can instead put the money into more attractive start-up packages to recruit better academic talent and raise the profile of the university the right way?
Because the basketball program still gets MU a lot of attention?
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It would be a bad idea. What good coach would want to take a job that you get fired for being a 5 seed and loses in the 1st round? Answer is, not a good coach or not an top assistant.
Yup. Plenty of examples of schools that fire winning coaches (see Texas/Barnes as recent example) and find that the grass isn't greener. Bad choice to fire a winning coach that is consistently getting you in the tournament.
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Why invest in bad stock (Wojo) when you can instead put the money into more attractive start-up packages to recruit better academic talent and raise the profile of the university the right way?
Because its not bad stock? I don't know if this number is still true but Scholl said that for every $ they spend on MU basketball, the university gets an ROI of $7. Seems like great stock to me!
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It would be a bad idea. What good coach would want to take a job that you get fired for being a 5 seed and loses in the 1st round? Answer is, not a good coach or not an top assistant.
No, the correct answer is...one that knows he can do better..one that wants to get the program back to where it belongs. One that sees that this program has been below expectations for where it should be. That's the Coach you'd get.
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Because its not bad stock? I don't know if this number is still true but Scholl said that for every $ they spend on MU basketball, the university gets an ROI of $7. Seems like great stock to me!
I would expect that trend to reverse as long as Steve is our "coach". (I put coach in quotations because he clearly has very little skills in that department.) 20 points to a mid major with one player, no adjustments. 6 of 7 losses to end the season, with several scoreless minutes to close the game in many of those games.
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No, the correct answer is...one that knows he can do better..one that wants to get the program back to where it belongs. One that sees that this program has been below expectations for where it should be. That's the Coach you'd get.
+1
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I would expect that trend to reverse as long as Steve is our "coach". (I put coach in quotations because he clearly has very little skills in that department.) 20 points to a mid major with one player, no adjustments. 6 of 7 losses to end the season, with several scoreless minutes to close the game in many of those games.
I mean come on, there was a fat guy who could barely get up and down the court! Why not exploit that? Speed up the play. Something. Anything.
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And he was fired after going 14-15 with no postseason. Not after a 5 seed.
And c'mon Hilltopper, anyone can see that Deane was trending down while Wojo is trending up.
There are some of us who have tasted a National Championship that are in our sunset years, thus the impatience with the program. We want to see a product that is competent, competitive and can make a run to the basketball promised land. I want to see the 2020 recruiting class before I start having doubts about Wojo, since it is my view that it is as much the players ability to execute a play as it is the coach's to map out a play. He has to recruit player that can execute. We'll see if that is the case in this next class.
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
Winston Churchill
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No, the correct answer is...one that knows he can do better..one that wants to get the program back to where it belongs. One that sees that this program has been below expectations for where it should be. That's the Coach you'd get.
::)
You might want to read the original question that started the thread.
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Let’s see what MSU does the rest of the way before making that claim.
Again, MU beat a 4, 5, two 6’s, a 7, a 10 already this year.
If MSU goes deep on their crapshoot run, then maybe it was they who were under seeded, right? Goes both ways.
What if MU played St Mary’s yesterday, a likely win. Would that mean we were correctly seeded? You guys are assigning results based on the seed without looking at who they played or what another similarly seeded team would be as an opponent. Example, we are a 5...So is Wisconsin. We beat Wisconsin this year, but they may win their opening game. It DEPENDS who you play!!!!
I happen to mostly agree with you, but just because it's a crapshoot doesn't mean that it can't also be a bed crapping.
I think we saw evidence of both last night.
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Why invest in bad stock (Wojo) when you can instead put the money into more attractive start-up packages to recruit better academic talent and raise the profile of the university the right way?
Just stop. How much money/attention/prestige does the university get from men's basketball? How many tens of millions of dollars in actual revenue and other intangible benefits?
How much money are they going to get from a marginally better student in the business college? Nothing.
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I would expect that trend to reverse as long as Steve is our "coach". (I put coach in quotations because he clearly has very little skills in that department.) 20 points to a mid major with one player, no adjustments. 6 of 7 losses to end the season, with several scoreless minutes to close the game in many of those games.
But it hasn’t reversed, it has improved in the last five years. This ROI argument is fantasy, UNLESS attendance goes down QB, ticket sales are down, etc. But right now, the ROI has been quite good and has trended up the last few years with this year being a great ROI year.
And this mid major comment, give it up already. That is a very good team, that is an agenda driven adjective you are using. That team is awfully good when they are shooting like that. FSU has the athletes to stop them, but MSU would give most teams fits.
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Lack of defense and rebounding? Those were probably the two biggest areas of improvement from last year to this year.
Yea I know. Which is sad because yesterday they were awful on both of those.
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Well said MUDish, well said.
However, I question whether Marquette and Board of Trustees want Marquette basketball to reach the next level?
Sadly, I agree with the original post, if the 2019 - 2020 season is a replay of this season, Wojo will remain the coach.
"Just good enough, is good enough for Marquette."
Of course they would love to. But the right way. Like it or not that’s going to limit us.
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Tourney seeds under Crean: 3, 5, 6, 7, 8
Average 5.8
Tourney seeds under Buzz: 3, 3, 6, 6, 11
Average 5.8
Inconvenient truth: In the last 20 years, Marquette has only been seeded better 3 times than they were this year.
I understand people want more. I want more, too. But I also realize this type of season is a pretty common for Marquette.
Only tells part of the story.
I would have LOVED to play Iowa, for example....but that would mean we were a 7 seed.
What our seed is does not mean a whole lot until you look at the schools that are in it. There are 12 seeds here that are BETTER teams at this point in time than their seed indicates.
The committee seeds someone based on their overall resume, but not how one is playing at the moment which is why using purely seeds has holes in it because of how teams are playing. That includes MU’s collapse at the end, or Oregon’s rise in the last two weeks.
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Only tells part of the story.
I would have LOVED to play Iowa, for example....but that would mean we were a 7 seed.
What our seed is does not mean a whole lot until you look at the schools that are in it. There are 12 seeds here that are BETTER teams at this point in time than their seed indicates.
The committee seeds someone based on their overall resume, but not how one is playing at the moment which is why using purely seeds has holes in it because of how teams are playing. That includes MU’s collapse at the end, or Oregon’s rise in the last two weeks.
I watched Iowa today. They would’ve shredded us.
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To everyone who defends Wojo through all of this let me ask you this. What if next years team is equal to this years team or even takes a step back. Losing Howard/Morrow/Sam Hauser the following year isn't going to make the team 2 years from now better than this year. Wojo had a very small window this year and next and he failed on step one. What would Wojo have to do in the next two year to have you lose faith in him and want him fired? His window is now 1 year and thats next year before he has to restart with a new class to carry the team. I'm not trying to be a pessimist here but I am torn on the future here.
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
how many games were we rated 20th or better?
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HowardsWorld
Didn't you hear about that "really, really big 2020 recruiting class"? Several scoopers are talking up the special 2020 recruiting class that Wojo is working on. Fortunately, we are so deep going into next season that Wojo has no holes to fill in.
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HowardsWorld
Didn't you hear about that "really, really big 2020 recruiting class"? Several scoopers are talking up the special 2020 recruiting class that Wojo is working on. Fortunately, we are so deep going into next season that Wojo has no holes to fill in.
Yes I have heard many times about the big recruiting class of 2020 who currently has 1 player in it.
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HowardsWorld
Didn't you hear about that "really, really big 2020 recruiting class"? Several scoopers are talking up the special 2020 recruiting class that Wojo is working on. Fortunately, we are so deep going into next season that Wojo has no holes to fill in.
Goose, those same guys will talk up the 2022 class, then it will be 2024, then 2026, etc.
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HowardsWorld
You do not sound as optimistic of the big 2020 class as some other on here do.
RJax
We have three top 5 players in the nation within 15 miles and no one finds it troubling that we will likely whiff on all three. Same story as the season, just different excuses. The guys want to only go blue blood, get away from home, not Wojo's kind of player. But, you are correct on if not 2020, wait until fill in the blank.
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Yes I have heard many times about the big recruiting class of 2020 who currently has 1 player in it.
Can we wait until it is completed.....might be a good idea.
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Can we wait until it is completed.....might be a good idea.
Well, a lot of these posters aren't around when there is good news.
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Cheeks
Agreed on seeing how it plays out. Only mentioned because several on here are touting that class and using that as a reason to support Wojo. Curious, do you point out the parade organizers for 2020 class to hold off shutting down Wisconsin Ave until the it is completed?
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HowardsWorld
You do not sound as optimistic of the big 2020 class as some other on here do.
RJax
We have three top 5 players in the nation within 15 miles and no one finds it troubling that we will likely whiff on all three. Same story as the season, just different excuses. The guys want to only go blue blood, get away from home, not Wojo's kind of player. But, you are correct on if not 2020, wait until fill in the blank.
It's unfortunate, but it's not troubling. Marquette has never landed these types of kids.
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Goose, Torrence is already in. It appears that MU is close on Dainja and Garcia. If MU were to land both, would that be enough for you? To replace Sam, Sacar, Markus, and Ed?
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Tower
Truthfully, grading recruiting classes is difficult task and really takes shape after the guys start playing college ball. I see what guys say on here about recruits and almost is always rosy, until we lose them. As I said two weeks ago, I hope Wojo has nationally ranked recruiting classes every year, not just certain years.
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Tower
Truthfully, grading recruiting classes is difficult task and really takes shape after the guys start playing college ball. I see what guys say on here about recruits and almost is always rosy, until we lose them. As I said two weeks ago, I hope Wojo has nationally ranked recruiting classes every year, not just certain years.
That is the dream. For 2019-2020, however, there is no playing time available. Difficult to land 5 star talent when a team has 95% of its minutes returning (theoretically) and 3 big guards already in the fold.
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That is the dream. For 2019-2020, however, there is no playing time available. Difficult to land 5 star talent when a team has 95% of its minutes returning (theoretically) and 3 big guards already in the fold.
If they are good enough to play themselves into some of those 95%, they will have done it the old fashioned way-earning it
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We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.
Public opinion is overrated.
This team was lost for the last 20% of the season though.
But I agree Wojo is going nowhere, and I am not naive enough to think MU is going to upgrade. Wojo's been good. Results haven't been great, but I like what he has built. This team just folded. It sucked to see. Took me 22 hours to muster the strength to come here.
But we should be pretty good next season. I hope Koby can play point - reviews seem to be mixed there. I am going against what I said literally days ago, but I wouldn't hate patrolling the market for a backup PG on the grad transfer market. Or a freshman decommit point.
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I mean come on, there was a fat guy who could barely get up and down the court! Why not exploit that? Speed up the play. Something. Anything.
Exploit? I’d have settled for matching his motor. That fat kid outhustled every MU player that saw the court.
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Tower
Plenty of playing time available. So, if Nico bumps his head and comes to MU, you don’t play him?
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Only tells part of the story.
I would have LOVED to play Iowa, for example....but that would mean we were a 7 seed.
What our seed is does not mean a whole lot until you look at the schools that are in it. There are 12 seeds here that are BETTER teams at this point in time than their seed indicates.
The committee seeds someone based on their overall resume, but not how one is playing at the moment which is why using purely seeds has holes in it because of how teams are playing. That includes MU’s collapse at the end, or Oregon’s rise in the last two weeks.
You may have loved to play Iowa. Cincinnati didn't. Is Murray better than their slot (45-48)? Sure, maybe by a lot. Will they totally dominate anyone else and beat them by 19? Unlikely. Are we worse than our slot (17)? Absolutely. By a ton. Were we the most overseeded/overrated team in the tournament? Probably. Did any team in the tournament have a combined end of season/NCAA tournament collapse to rival ours? Nope. We're #1. Sad. Lots of better teams than us playing in the NIT.
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To everyone who defends Wojo through all of this let me ask you this. What if next years team is equal to this years team or even takes a step back. Losing Howard/Morrow/Sam Hauser the following year isn't going to make the team 2 years from now better than this year. Wojo had a very small window this year and next and he failed on step one. What would Wojo have to do in the next two year to have you lose faith in him and want him fired? His window is now 1 year and thats next year before he has to restart with a new class to carry the team. I'm not trying to be a pessimist here but I am torn on the future here.
I’m expecting Sweet 16.
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Clearly something is wrong with the committee if Marquette was the 17th best resume and put up that performance. I guess you are just fine and dandy with being okay.
I on the other hand like geico, am not fine with just okay. I'm not okay with having the talent to he a top 10 team, lose 6 of the last 7, lose the big east championship then lose in the big east tournament then lose in the NCAA right away. If wojo pulls the exact same stunt next year he needs to go. Regardless if it's a 5 seed or not. What did we accomplish this year in tangible results? Get back to the NCAA tournament as a 1 and done? Were not depaul... we should not be excited about this.
Or what? What are you going to do? If you have season tickets are you going to not renew? Go for it and put your money where your mouth is. Just stop whining like some entitled little baby.