MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Shooter McGavin on March 21, 2019, 11:34:10 PM
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We saw what a real point guard could do tonight. Granted, he is a top five NBA pick. Markus is a great scorer, not a point guard. Does Wojo make the adjustment next year? Does he drop the M2N goal and do what’s best for the team? Markus can not see the floor like Ja. 16 assists speaks volumes. It would take 4-5 games for Markus to get that total.
Jay Bee as a big fan of yours I’d like your opinion. Markus is good. Is he good enough at the only position he can possibly play In the NBA? I know you are a big fan but does this season change your opinion?
Just not sure what to think after seeing what happened tonight.
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No.
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No, he is a shooter/scorer. Nothing new there. He needs to play off theball.
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Yes. He is a score first PG. Y'all have a very narrow view of what a PG is.
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TAMU,
In your opinion does a point guard have to be able to see the floor and pass the ball to an open teammate? Because he does not seem to be able to do that. He does not make his teammates better.
This has been proven objectively based on a large body of evidence this season. Is he too short or is he just not wired that way?
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Uh, no
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Seemingly no. Doesn't have good dribbling or passing. Out of control at times. But reality is he kinda has to play the point.
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Yes. He is a score first PG. Y'all have a very narrow view of what a PG is.
PGs don’t have Sam flailing their arms yelling I’m open on multiple fast breaks.
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Markus 2018/9 is a scorer. There are two ways to turn it for next year:
1. Keep him on the point, and he needs to average 10 assists per game or lose playing time
2. play him off the ball... give up on the experiment...
I really believe court vision is a "you have it or you don't" thing... and if he doesn't have it by now, it's not going to appear.
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The only thing he has in common with a PG is his size. He'd be a #2 but he can't guard anyone. Poor assist/turnover ratio.
I'll say it- I would not be disappointed if he went to play pro somewhere. His turnovers and long misses lead to break outs on the other end. The offense simply stands around waiting for him to chuck. He's reached his max potential, and next year's team will be the same: +.500 in BE, maybe a NCAA bid with another prompt exit.
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Knot on my teem, he ain't, hey?
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We saw what a real point guard could do tonight. Granted, he is a top five NBA pick. Markus is a great scorer, not a point guard. Does Wojo make the adjustment next year? Does he drop the M2N goal and do what’s best for the team? Markus can not see the floor like Ja. 16 assists speaks volumes. It would take 4-5 games for Markus to get that total.
Jay Bee as a big fan of yours I’d like your opinion. Markus is good. Is he good enough at the only position he can possibly play In the NBA? I know you are a big fan but does this season change your opinion?
Just not sure what to think after seeing what happened tonight.
No, you saw what one of the best point guards of the last decade can do. Only Duke has a one better player.
So your standards are
* transformational player that is capable of one of the best tourney games of the last two decades.
* sucks
Side note - what did not think of Morant one year ago when he scored three points in a first-round loss?
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Yes. He is a score first PG. Y'all have a very narrow view of what a PG is.
No. Rowsey was a score first pg. Strong dribble with okay passing. But even rowsey wasn't very good. I'd guess that rowsey and Howard have very similar stat lines minus Howard having way more volume of shots
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It’s not just that he doesn’t make his teammates better, he makes them worse.
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It’s not just that he doesn’t make his teammates better, he makes them worse.
And his teammates know it.
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Our best offense with Markus on the floor was when he got in an unconscious groove, but the best team offense we saw executed this year was usually when Markus wasn’t in the game. That’s as much his teammates fault as his. Wojo also shares a huge part of the blame.
To answer the question no he’s not a PG by traditional standards. He’s a scorer
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Markus has to play off ball, hopefully kobe mcewen can help out with that next year
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Clearly he is not a PG.....he is a shooting guard, they do (did) not have a PG on the roster (at least who got playing time), and it ended up being their downfall.
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No. This is the biggest problem with the team this year.
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I love Markus. He's a fantastic player and undeniably one of the all-time greats at Marquette. I'm also pretty confident that he'll be back next year and utterly obliterate MU's all-time scoring record. I've enjoyed watching him, and I've enjoyed having people who know I'm a Marquette fan approaching me to talk about Markus and MU basketball.
But, he's only an average point guard, at best. Personally, I give him a lot of credit for carrying this team to a top ten ranking this year while being asked to play out of position. He's just really not a point guard at heart, but that's where we needed him, and that's where he played. Even though I'm not in the "Fire Wojo Now!" camp, that's on Wojo. He had a really nice team this year, but no PG worthy of such a team. When we signed JC, I hoped he would be good enough to handle the PG duties for the team, but we all saw how that turned out. Markus did the best he could in the role, but it wasn't great.
Here's hoping that we have someone next year who can handle the ball and we can all enjoy Markus' second straight Big East POY as a 25 ppg shooting guard.
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He was on this team by default. I think next year that there will not be just one player who initiates the offense.
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We saw what a real point guard could do tonight. Granted, he is a top five NBA pick. Markus is a great scorer, not a point guard. Does Wojo make the adjustment next year? Does he drop the M2N goal and do what’s best for the team? Markus can not see the floor like Ja. 16 assists speaks volumes. It would take 4-5 games for Markus to get that total.
Jay Bee as a big fan of yours I’d like your opinion. Markus is good. Is he good enough at the only position he can possibly play In the NBA? I know you are a big fan but does this season change your opinion?
Just not sure what to think after seeing what happened tonight.
There are lots of real point guards that play basketball, what we saw was an elite one that may be the second player picked. That kid was something else. Markus cannot see the court like Ja, neither can anyone else playing college basketball.
FSU has the athletes to run at him and will be interesting to see how the Racers do.
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Markus seems to get the blame here, but he was literally the only one on the active roster who could initiate his own shot. I said it last year, this team would miss Rowsey’s offense and it did (leaving defense to the side). That’s on Wojo.
Markus was left to put the entire team on his back, for better or worse. While there were instances like Georgetown where MU did well with Markus on the bench, coaches would have adjusted and pressed the hell out of MU. That was only going to be successful in situationals and changes of pace. Look at the times over the last seven games when Markus was on the bench with fouls and injuries...like yesterday when MU crapped the bed at the end of the 1st half. I mean, he was a 1st team AA...what happens if he goes pro?
And, what’s this thing about PG? Wojo has said he doesn’t have a PG led offense but wants combo guards. There simply wasn’t another one of on the active roster. If it’s a guards game as I have been told, where were the guards?
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And, what’s this thing about PG? Wojo has said he doesn’t have a PG led offense but wants combo guards. There simply wasn’t another one of on the active roster. If it’s a guards game I have been told, where were the guards?
Grimes went elsewhere, Greg got hurt, Chartouny did not pan out. Going forward, McEwen, Greg, Akanno, and Torrence all say hi.
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Grimes went elsewhere, Greg got hurt, Chartouny did not pan out. Going forward, McEwen, Greg, Akanno, and Torrence all say hi.
This is my favorite scoop game and has become quite the tradition; next years X will fix this year’s Y. I wonder what 2020’s X and 2021’s Y will be?
Wojo has done a very poor job constructing a balanced roster and his most balanced roster to date was thanks to Buzz.
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Grimes went elsewhere, Greg got hurt, Chartouny did not pan out. Going forward, McEwen, Greg, Akanno, and Torrence all say hi.
So that is on Markus?
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This is my favorite scoop game and has become quite the tradition; next years X will fix this year’s Y. I wonder what 2020’s X and 2021’s Y will be?
Last year it was the defense. Seems like that panned out eh?
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This is my favorite scoop game and has become quite the tradition; next years X will fix this year’s Y. I wonder what 2020’s X and 2021’s Y will be?
Wojo has done a very poor job constricting a balanced roster and his most balanced roster to date was thanks to Buzz.
You are correct. A freshman PG isn’t going to solve the problems with this team. Howard will have the ball the majority of the time once again next year. He needs to recognize there are four guys on the floor with him.
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Last year it was the defense. Seems like that panned out eh?
We plug one leak and spring another. Not exactly the mark of progress.
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We plug one leak and spring another. Not exactly the mark of progress.
but NIT 2 seed to NCAA 5 seed is a huge mark of progress. We fixed a huge leak and sprung a smaller one.
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So that is on Markus?
Everyone talks about Markus and hero ball. Two questions. 1. Who else could get their own shot. 2. Bench Markus and what were the options? Markus played well enough to be BEPOY and second team all American. Anybody watching g could see he was beat up by the end of the year. Grimes, Greg, Chart puny panning out could have are a difference.
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Howard- 40%
Hauser- 42%
Hauser- 40%
Anim- 39%
With the outside shooting MU can put out there for most of the game, defenses should have been on skates trying to guard them. But the ball never moved enough to force rotations or help. Wonder why that was...
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Good lord no he is not a point guard. Not even remotely capable.
Name one thing he can do to initiate offense that doesn't involve him trying to score?
Name one thing he does that makes his teammates better?
MSU rolled us because they played together as a team, not only because Morant is an exceptional talent (which he is), but because he is a willing facilitator for his teammates.
We got rolled because, while Markus is also an exceptional (albeit one-dimensional) talent, he doesn't do anything except dominate the ball and make his teammates almost irrelevant.
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Yes. He is a score first PG. Y'all have a very narrow view of what a PG is.
Sure he is a PG in name only, read what wojo said makes ja a great point guard in his post game press conference. Markus does none of that. A good makes his teammates better gets them involved n puts the ball in tge right place at tge right time to score easy baskets. Im sorry but Markus does none of that. He also doesnt handle tge ball well. Again he may have PG next to his name on the lineup, but he has none of the qualities of a PG.
He is a good shooting 2G, in fact apart from shooting I cant really think of anything else he dors well. He does it really well and that makes him very valuable to a team, but he does little to nothing to make his teammates better.
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Everyone talks about Markus and hero ball. Two questions. 1. Who else could get their own shot. 2. Bench Markus and what were the options? Markus played well enough to be BEPOY and second team all American. Anybody watching g could see he was beat up by the end of the year. Grimes, Greg, Chart puny panning out could have are a difference.
Well that was my original point, so I don’t understand your argument as we agree...why does Markus get the blame here? He was asked by his coach to be the Superman, for better or worse. He wasn’t but he was close...but the opponents brought out the kryptonite.
The roster holes are on his coach. As is the blame for the coach asking Markus to do too much.
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No. Rowsey was a score first pg. Strong dribble with okay passing. But even rowsey wasn't very good. I'd guess that rowsey and Howard have very similar stat lines minus Howard having way more volume of shots
Wrong
U forget rowseys passing ability
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This is my favorite scoop game and has become quite the tradition; next years X will fix this year’s Y. I wonder what 2020’s X and 2021’s Y will be?
Wojo has done a very poor job constructing a balanced roster and his most balanced roster to date was thanks to Buzz.
His most balanced roster was thanks to Buzz? What? Did Buzz send all of this year’s players his way when they made visits to Blacksburg or...?
Unless you’re referring to equally bad players on Wojo’s first team? I’m not sure there was a single position we were better at that year than we were this year...
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but NIT 2 seed to NCAA 5 seed is a huge mark of progress. We fixed a huge leak and sprung a smaller one.
You have to admit that next year’s this will fix this year’s that has become an all too common refrain. Hopefully it ends next year and we can simply celebrate the achievements
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McEwen and Elliot should help a lot next year and allow Markus to play off the ball more. He really didn't have that option this year.
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Well that was my original point, so I don’t understand your argument as we agree...why does Markus get the blame here? He was asked by his coach to be the Superman, for better or worse. He wasn’t but he was close...but the opponents brought out the kryptonite.
The roster holes are on his coach. As is the blame for the coach asking Markus to do too much.
I agree with this hard to blame kid for attempting to be super human and failing. He was extraordinary in his attempt as was much of his results. Blame goes on the coach for not having a capable PG on the toster to allow markus to play a position more suitable to his talents. If we put Sacar at PG would Sacar have been the scapegoat this year? Or should our coach have 2 pgs on the roster each and every year?
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Marcus Howard’s assist rate: 27.2%. Junior Cadougan his senior (Elite 8) year: 28.3
Markus turnover rate: 18.4. Junior: 25.8.
Markus usage rate (possessions): 36.1. Junior: 23.9
Discuss.
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NO
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but NIT 2 seed to NCAA 5 seed is a huge mark of progress. We fixed a huge leak and sprung a smaller one.
i agree with this...if MU is routinely at the top of the BEAST and a 5 seed in the tourney i'm not going to complain...and i think they'll get some NCAA wins.
i don't agree with your comment that markus is a shoot first pg...he isn't a pg. we've all watched a lot of basketball. it is not normal...for any player...to get doubled on a screen and have a shooter the caliber of sam h. 10 ft away and not throw him the ball routinely. i can't believe he doesn't see sam...i do believe he is one of the most selfish players i've ever watched. wojo's comments showed he was frustrated with this throughout the season as well...wojo's job is to fix this. next year will be very interesting...and a huge year for wojo.
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You have to admit that next year’s this will fix this year’s that has become an all too common refrain. Hopefully it ends next year and we can simply celebrate the achievements
There will always be something to fix, it doesn't matter how good the team is. We went to the freaking final four in 2003 and I guarantee you everyone was talking about what needed to be fixed the following year after we lost.
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No, to answer the question.
Our offense is extremely clunky. We basically just try to go 1 on 1 with Markus/Hausers most possessions. Very little team ball.
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it is not normal...for any player...to get doubled on a screen and have a shooter the caliber of sam h. 10 ft away and not throw him the ball routinely. i can't believe he doesn't see sam...i do believe he is one of the most selfish players i've ever watched. wojo's comments showed he was frustrated with this throughout the season as well
If Wojo is frustrated, imagine how Sam and Joey feel...
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There will always be something to fix, it doesn't matter how good the team is. We went to the freaking final four in 2003 and I guarantee you everyone was talking about what needed to be fixed the following year after we lost.
Ok man. You know exactly the refrain I’m referring to. You’re being stubborn. Wojo’s entire tenure is defined by “next year”.
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Ok man. You know exactly the refrain I’m referring to. You’re being stubborn. Wojo’s entire tenure is defined by “next year”.
See I'm not saying, "forget about this year wait til next season." I'm saying "we had a good season this year and look like we're going to have an even better one next season".
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Howard- 40%
Hauser- 42%
Hauser- 40%
Anim- 39%
With the outside shooting MU can put out there for most of the game, defenses should have been on skates trying to guard them. But the ball never moved enough to force rotations or help. Wonder why that was...
Well stated. Given the high percentage threats we had, we seldom put a great deal of pressure on defenses to try to handle all of them. It's a thing of beauty to watch good teams swing the ball around and get a defense spinning before a wide open 3. I still think our severely undersized team with Acker, Lazar, Cubillan overachieved like crazy because they made themselves very hard to guard with ball movement. This year's team has more talent than that team, but we don't force opponents to deal with the full potential of the shooting threats very often. Hopefully we can incorporate that more next year.
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See I'm not saying, "forget about this year wait til next season." I'm saying "we had a good season this year and look like we're going to have an even better one next season".
I gotcha TAMU. That’s definitely where our disconnect lies
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It’s not just that he doesn’t make his teammates better, he makes them worse.
I really can't take people seriously who say this.
Is he a point guard? Not really. He is a shoot-first combo guard. However the idea that he makes his teammates worse is beyond absurd.
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Marcus Howard’s assist rate: 27.2%. Junior Cadougan his senior (Elite 8) year: 28.3
Markus turnover rate: 18.4. Junior: 25.8.
Markus usage rate (possessions): 36.1. Junior: 23.9
Discuss.
I'll start!
Scoop has an odd thing for nitpicking and bashing Markus despite the fact that he was the BEPOY and has made some first time all-American lists. It's beyond strange.
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I really can't take people seriously who say this.
Is he a point guard? Not really. He is a shoot-first combo guard. However the idea that he makes his teammates worse is beyond absurd.
how does he make them any better?
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how does he make them any better?
You mean beyond his 27.3% assist rate? Pretty much the same rate that Junior had on the Elite 8 team.
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I've been hearing Kobe McEwen is the real deal
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I've been hearing Kobe McEwen is the real deal
Perhaps he is, but this a common Scoop refrain. I remember when Bailey was looking like our best player in practice during the summer session and Morrow was a beast in practice last year.
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You mean beyond his 27.3% assist rate? Pretty much the same rate that Junior had on the Elite 8 team.
Since when is Junior the benchmark for good PG play?
It is fairly clear to me that he dominates the ball too much, and by only getting others involved as a last resort, makes the game much more difficult for himself. Is that all on him or is their blame on everyone, including coaches for devising that system? Obviously the latter.
The difference between MU's offense and MSU's offense was night and day. Their off-ball movement was so much better than ours. And having someone who would actually make the passes to them in the right spot and at the right time made very clear what Markus lacks in that respect.
Hopefully Kobe has the ball in his hands the majority of the time next year and the staff devises a system like MSU's. I cannot believe I just typed that.
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Perhaps he is, but this a common Scoop refrain. I remember when Bailey was looking like our best player in practice during the summer session and Morrow was a beast in practice last year.
I also did go to the open practice at the beginning of the year, he was the best player on the floor by far
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Markus is undersized at either the 1 or 2.
He is an excellent perimeter shooter, mid range shooter, and he can also finish at the hoop against much bigger players. He can create his own space and shot. He is an excellent free throw shooter. He is not a great defender but he was much improved there this year.
Markus averaged 4 assists per game to go along with 4 turnovers per game. At times he turned the ball over off of the dribble, and at times,
he turned the ball over via the pass.
At times when the team was struggling, he forced ill advised decisions. He also frequently would commit a foul 94 feet from the defensive hoop after missing a few shots in a row in frustration. It happened v Murray St. late first half.
Ball handling, passing, frustration fouls are areas of needed improvement.
When teams ran him off the 3 point line he did well to get his teammates involved early, being patient and his time would come in a game.
His awards and accolades are well earned and well deserved. He would benefit from a more offensively skilled front court post player. He would also benefit from quicker, faster teammates to take some pressure off of him.
I hope he returns next season. It would be a big loss if he didn’t.
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Everyone talks about Markus and hero ball. Two questions. 1. Who else could get their own shot.
Was there anyone on Murray St. that could get their own shot? It is the point guards job to get the ball to players who are in position to score. That is what we saw yesterday.
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Was there anyone on Murray St. that could get their own shot? It is the point guards job to get the ball to players who are in position to score. That is what we saw yesterday.
+ infinity
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Markus is undersized at either the 1 or 2.
He is an excellent perimeter shooter, mid range shooter, and he can also finish at the hoop against much bigger players. He can create his own space and shot. He is an excellent free throw shooter. He is not a great defender but he was much improved there this year.
Markus averaged 4 assists per game to go along with 4 turnovers per game. At times he turned the ball over off of the dribble, and at times,
he turned the ball over via the pass.
At times when the team was struggling, he forced ill advised decisions. He also frequently would commit a foul 94 feet from the defensive hoop after missing a few shots in a row in frustration. It happened v Murray St. late first half.
Ball handling, passing, frustration fouls are areas of needed improvement.
When teams ran him off the 3 point line he did well to get his teammates involved early, being patient and his time would come in a game.
His awards and accolades are well earned and well deserved. He would benefit from a more offensively skilled front court post player. He would also benefit from quicker, faster teammates to take some pressure off of him.
I hope he returns next season. It would be a big loss if he didn’t.
Agreed completely. I also hope Kobe can be a guy that can play point so that Markus has the ball in his hands a LOT less.
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I assume some things about all posters on this board:
1. We're all MU Bball fans, especially of Markus Howard.
2. Most of us are high school and/or college graduates.
3. We have a good understanding of college basketball.
There are a few things Markus is not:
1. Markus is not a point guard. The last true point guard we had that I can remember was Junior Cadugan.
2. Markus is not 5'11" (https://gomarquette.com/roster.aspx?roster=167&path=mbball)
3. Markus is not leaving early for the NBA or any other pro program.
He is an unbelievable college basketball scoring talent who is destined to break the MU scoring record by an incredible margin which likely will stand for many years.
In every interview I've seen he comes across as incredibly humble and intelligent; a great ambassador for the university and game (think how Seton Hall couldn't even risk sending a player to talk to the TV crew after the game!).
He likely doesn't make the NBA but still has an opportunity to carve out an incredible professional career should he want it. And if he does make it to the NBA, fantastic! I'm sure he's the type of person who would make the most of it however long or short it was.
He was probably hurt and banged up far more than he or the university are willing to admit.