Cain needs to play 10-15 minutes if only to pull down some much needed boards while providing serviceable defense and offense. He has by the far the best instincts after the ball clangs off the rim. Defensive rebounding is becoming a major major issue; I believe he's worthy of strong consideration to mitigate it.
Quote from: Windyplayer on March 03, 2019, 06:53:24 PM
Cain needs to play 10-15 minutes if only to pull down some much needed boards while providing serviceable defense and offense. He has by the far the best instincts after the ball clangs off the rim. Defensive rebounding is becoming a major major issue; I believe he's worthy of strong consideration to mitigate it.
Why, so he can turn it over 8 times in those 15 minutes like everyone else??
After a rough game or two, there's always a search form fans for some kind of silver bullet that would have saved the day. This year there have been a number of posts about Jamal and Brendan (even Greg), saying that if they just got their minutes, the game could have been different. With Jamal and Brendan, we've seen enough of them this year to know that there are more downs than ups. They have their moments, but they also have weaknesses that limit their effectiveness.
Rebounding has been an issue, but I think turnovers have been a bigger problem. Jamal may help with the rebounds, but his TO rate shows that he's still got some work to do on the offensive side before he can earn those extra minutes. I respect the way he's handled his diminished playing time this year, but I also understand Wojo's reasoning for making that decision. For now, the bad outweighs the good a little too much.
At the expense of whom? Some from Sam, some from Sacar, some from Joey, some from Markus? Don't get me wrong, in theory, I would prefer more balanced minutes. But how do you reconcile more minutes for Jamal when teams attack him as soon as he comes in the game, both defensively and when he touches the ball? And so far, he only occasionally steps up.
Quote from: muguru on March 03, 2019, 06:54:49 PM
Why, so he can turn it over 8 times in those 15 minutes like everyone else??
Haven't you watched this year? You're allowed to turn it over as many times as you want provided your name is not Cain. If it is, you get benched after your first TO.
We've had these TO spouts all year round. I am pissed for Cain. I assume I'm missing something like effort in practice or something. I don't know. But especially when he was a serviceable Freshman last year to seeing all his minutes taken by two Freshman this year. I don't get it.
Free Tyler Herro, hey?
Quote from: tower912 on March 03, 2019, 07:15:16 PM
At the expense of whom? Some from Sam, some from Sacar, some from Joey, some from Markus? Don't get me wrong, in theory, I would prefer more balanced minutes. But how do you reconcile more minutes for Jamal when teams attack him as soon as he comes in the game, both defensively and when he touches the ball? And so far, he only occasionally steps up.
And next year, add the some from McEwen, some from Elliott?, who will more than likely be ahead of Cain in playing time.
In BE play, Cain has played a total of 69 minutes, 14 of which were against Butler and has 5 DNPs. Thats an average of 4 minutes per game. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Yes please.
Cain will get some opportunities down the stretch. I am confident he will perform well when given the opportunity. The kid is a real team player and is working hard in practice to get back into the rotation. He has a common problem in college athletics, the kid in front of him (Sacar) is consistently doing well and has the coaches confidence. Until he is consistently better than Sacar in practice nothing is going to change.
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 03, 2019, 08:09:55 PM
Cain will get some opportunities down the stretch. I am confident he will perform well when given the opportunity. The kid is a real team player and is working hard in practice to get back into the rotation. He has a common problem in college athletics, the kid in front of him (Sacar) is consistently doing well and has the coaches confidence. Until he is consistently better than Sacar in practice nothing is going to change.
I doubt we see much of Cain at all down the stretch. Wojo does not trust him this year and will not play him unless forced to with an injury. Since his back to back good performances against DePaul and Butler he's gotten 5, 2 and 1 minutes played in the last 3 games, two of which were losses with plenty of starters stinking up the joint.
Cain's role on this team is such a mind-bend. It's hard to see how a kid as highly rated (and with as much upside as he had/has) stomach's DNPs in his 2nd season. But it's a testament to his character that it doesn't appear (externally) to get him down.
That said, maybe that's all well and good when you're winning.
When you drop one you should win where your teammates are struggling, and you only see 1 minute of action, maybe it gets a bit tougher.
I've always felt you need a minimum of 3 or 4 minutes of run to get into a game. I don't like this "we'll pull him after 40 seconds if his first touch is a bad one" - when kids know that's going to happen they get tight and making a mistake becomes more likely.
I'm not saying it wouldn't have been worth a shot to play Cain a little more tonight. When things aren't working, try something different.
However, we did win 12 of 13 games over nearly 2 months to take over first place place in the BEast even though Cain averaged only 4.5 mpg.
Also, our 8-game winning streak to close out non-conference play just so happened to start when Wojo stopped playing Cain double-digit minutes. (Cain had played 15-18 minutes in each of the first 5 games, when we went 3-2; he averaged 5.3 mpg over the next 6 and we won 'em all.)
Not blaming Cain for the mediocre start to the season or saying him getting lots of pine time is the reason we became the best team in the BEast. Just suggesting that he might not be some kind of magic solution.
IMHO he could have gotten 2-3 of Joey's minutes and maybe 2-3 of Sam's. Neither was playing well today, and both looked tired.
And for those saying or implying Jamal is a TO machine...he has played 31 minutes over the last five games, and has 2 TOs during that stretch. Given how we were handing the ball to Creighton all afternoon, it seems like it would have been worth a shot to see if he could have helped.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2019, 10:56:46 PM
IMHO he could have gotten 2-3 of Joey's minutes and maybe 2-3 of Sam's. Neither was playing well today, and both looked tired.
And for those saying or implying Jamal is a TO machine...he has played 31 minutes over the last five games, and has 2 TOs during that stretch. Given how we were handing the ball to Creighton all afternoon, it seems like it would have been worth a shot to see if he could have helped.
Reasonable.
Bench Joey. He looks like he is stuck in cement. It might be he is a freshmen. But start Cain. Put Joey in a little later. Joey is so slow. Every player he covers takes him to the basket. Cain is quicker. It is worth a chance.
Quote from: muguru on March 03, 2019, 06:54:49 PM
Why, so he can turn it over 8 times in those 15 minutes like everyone else??
That would be a step up from what Joey Hauser has been putting together as of late.
'Free Cain'. Isn't that every druggies dream?
I thought a Cain Bailey Hauser Hauser Howard line up would take them out of what they were doing.....
And tell Cain and Bailey not to shoot unless left completely wide open.....
https://www.youtube.com/v/y-PG5VgR5Ro
Cain was absolutely BRUTAL in the non conference. Had a couple decent games a few games back. If he was killing it in practice you think Wojo wouldn't be playing him more? Remember all the conversations on which freshman last year had a higher ceiling? lots thought Cain. He has just had an awful season period.
Elliott and Cain seem to play well together. I expect Cain will play better when he buddy is back on the floor again.
Quote from: Warrior1969 on March 04, 2019, 10:42:39 AM
Cain was absolutely BRUTAL in the non conference. Had a couple decent games a few games back. If he was killing it in practice you think Wojo wouldn't be playing him more? Remember all the conversations on which freshman last year had a higher ceiling? lots thought Cain. He has just had an awful season period.
Really? Cain was absolutely brutal in the non-conference? Or just a game or two in non-conference?
In the season's first 3 games where he played 15, 18 and 16 minutes, he was 6-15 from the field, including 4-10 from 3, had 18 rebounds, 2 steals, 3 blocks and zero turnovers. The 4th game against Presbyterian was pretty bad shooting wise, where he was 0-5, 0-4 from 3, and grabbed 3 rebounds with no turnovers, steals or blocks.
The 5th game against Kansas was the first game he had any turnovers, where he was credited with 3. He played 15 minutes and was 2-4 from the field, with 4 rebounds and an assist. The following 6th game against Louisville was the first game he did not play at least 10 minutes, where he had 2 rebounds and 2 turnovers. He did not take a shot that game. These are the only two games this season where Cain had more than 1 turnover in back-to-back games. They account for 30% of his turnovers for the entire season.
After Louisville, he got 9 minutes against Charleston Southern in the 7th game and made the only shot he took, with 1 rebound and 1 block.
In games 8, 9 and 10 against Kansas State, UTEP and Wisconsin, he played 1, 2 and 2 minutes for a grand total of 5 minutes, with no stats except for an assist, a turnover and a steal against UTEP.
In game 11 against North Dakota, he got 9 minutes where he was 2-2 from the field, with 1 rebound and 1 turnover. In game 12 against Buffalo, he played 18 minutes and went 3-3 from the field, with 5 rebounds, 1 turnover and 2 blocks.
In game 13, the last non-conference game against Southern, he got the most minutes of the season with 27, but struggled shooting going 0-6, including 0-2 from 3, and 1-4 from the line. However, he played great D and grabbed 8 rebounds, had 4 steals to go with 1 turnover.
So, his stats for the non-conference were:
14-36 from the field (39%)
4-17 from 3 (24%)
42 rebounds
2 assists
9 turnovers
7 steals
6 blocks
He had two bad shooting games where he went 0-11. In the other games he shot 14-25 for 56%. He had two games where he had more than 1 turnover, and he didn't have a turnover in 5 games where he played more than 9 minutes each.
So, looking at these stats, I would not say he was "absolutely brutal" in non-conference play. He got benched for his mistakes for sure. And he lost Wojo's confidence for sure in the Kansas and Louisville games.
But I would also note that in the limited playing time he's gotten in conference play he has only missed 2 shots, where he's 6-8 from the field, 2-3 from 3. He's grabbed 16 rebounds in 71 minutes of conference action, has 8 turnovers, 3 assists and 4 steals. He also has 5 DNPs in conference games.
Quote from: Norm on March 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Really? Cain was absolutely brutal in the non-conference? Or just a game or two in non-conference?
In the season's first 3 games where he played 15, 18 and 16 minutes, he was 6-15 from the field, including 4-10 from 3, had 18 rebounds, 2 steals, 3 blocks and zero turnovers. The 4th game against Presbyterian was pretty bad shooting wise, where he was 0-5, 0-4 from 3, and grabbed 3 rebounds with no turnovers, steals or blocks.
The 5th game against Kansas was the first game he had any turnovers, where he was credited with 3. He played 15 minutes and was 2-4 from the field, with 4 rebounds and an assist. The following 6th game against Louisville was the first game he did not play at least 10 minutes, where he had 2 rebounds and 2 turnovers. He did not take a shot that game. These are the only two games this season where Cain had more than 1 turnover in back-to-back games. They account for 30% of his turnovers for the entire season.
After Louisville, he got 9 minutes against Charleston Southern in the 7th game and made the only shot he took, with 1 rebound and 1 block.
In games 8, 9 and 10 against Kansas State, UTEP and Wisconsin, he played 1, 2 and 2 minutes for a grand total of 5 minutes, with no stats except for an assist, a turnover and a steal against UTEP.
In game 11 against North Dakota, he got 9 minutes where he was 2-2 from the field, with 1 rebound and 1 turnover. In game 12 against Buffalo, he played 18 minutes and went 3-3 from the field, with 5 rebounds, 1 turnover and 2 blocks.
In game 13, the last non-conference game against Southern, he got the most minutes of the season with 27, but struggled shooting going 0-6, including 0-2 from 3, and 1-4 from the line. However, he played great D and grabbed 8 rebounds, had 4 steals to go with 1 turnover.
So, his stats for the non-conference were:
14-36 from the field (39%)
4-17 from 3 (24%)
42 rebounds
2 assists
9 turnovers
7 steals
6 blocks
He had two bad shooting games where he went 0-11. In the other games he shot 14-25 for 56%. He had two games where he had more than 1 turnover, and he didn't have a turnover in 5 games where he played more than 9 minutes each.
So, looking at these stats, I would not say he was "absolutely brutal" in non-conference play. He got benched for his mistakes for sure. And he lost Wojo's confidence for sure in the Kansas and Louisville games.
But I would also note that in the limited playing time he's gotten in conference play he has only missed 2 shots, where he's 6-8 from the field, 2-3 from 3. He's grabbed 16 rebounds in 71 minutes of conference action, has 8 turnovers, 3 assists and 4 steals. He also has 5 DNPs in conference games.
All reasonable points.
I'll still side with the coach who sees every player every day in practice, the coach who has led us to a 23-6 record.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 03, 2019, 07:14:54 PM
After a rough game or two, there's always a search form fans for some kind of silver bullet that would have saved the day. This year there have been a number of posts about Jamal and Brendan (even Greg), saying that if they just got their minutes, the game could have been different. With Jamal and Brendan, we've seen enough of them this year to know that there are more downs than ups. They have their moments, but they also have weaknesses that limit their effectiveness.
Rebounding has been an issue, but I think turnovers have been a bigger problem. Jamal may help with the rebounds, but his TO rate shows that he's still got some work to do on the offensive side before he can earn those extra minutes. I respect the way he's handled his diminished playing time this year, but I also understand Wojo's reasoning for making that decision. For now, the bad outweighs the good a little too much.
Good points. And I am not looking for Cain to be a savior, only to impose his will on the glass for a few stretches. Love those rebounds where he skies from nowhere - can be pretty demoralizing for the opposition as well.
Quote from: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
All reasonable points.
I'll still side with the coach who sees every player every day in practice, the coach who has led us to a 23-6 record.
My thoughts exactly. I'm always amused by fans who aren't at practice every day thinking they know more than the coaches, whose job it is to win, as to who should play.
Wojo (and every coach for that matter) is going to put out the lineup he thinks will get him the W in that particular game. I remember Crean starting Chris Grimm against Bucky and people wondering what the hell he was doing. Grimm shut down Alondo Tucker. If Cain has earned minutes in Wojo's eyes he'd get them.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 04, 2019, 06:07:28 PM
My thoughts exactly. I'm always amused by fans who aren't at practice every day thinking they know more than the coaches, whose job it is to win, as to who should play.
Wojo (and every coach for that matter) is going to put out the lineup he thinks will get him the W in that particular game. I remember Crean starting Chris Grimm against Bucky and people wondering what the hell he was doing. Grimm shut down Alondo Tucker. If Cain has earned minutes in Wojo's eyes he'd get them.
Coaches aren't infallible. Dan Devine thought Rusty Lisch was better than Joe Montana for awhile. I think Lloyd Carr felt the same way about Drew Henson vs Tom Brady.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2019, 08:27:43 PM
Coaches aren't infallible. Dan Devine thought Rusty Lisch was better than Joe Montana for awhile. I think Lloyd Carr felt the same way about Drew Henson vs Tom Brady.
I never said Wojo was infallible, Lenny. Indeed, I said that what we were doing wasn't working and I probably would have tried something different if I were him.
Over the long haul, however, I'll trust the guy who sees these guys in practice every day, who knows them, who has to deal with them psychologically. And, again, who has led us to a 23-6 record.
By and large, I think Wojo has done an excellent job of deciding whom to play. Not a perfect job, because nobody is infallible. but an excellent job.
Quote from: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 10:10:33 PM
I never said Wojo was infallible, Lenny. Indeed, I said that what we were doing wasn't working and I probably would have tried something different if I were him.
Over the long haul, however, I'll trust the guy who sees these guys in practice every day, who knows them, who has to deal with them psychologically. And, again, who has led us to a 23-6 record.
By and large, I think Wojo has done an excellent job of deciding whom to play. Not a perfect job, because nobody is infallible. but an excellent job.
You and Billy Chico didn't say Wojo was infallible. But you both said that because he's at practice every day and has had a good season you'll back his decisions. Fine, feel free. I'm just pointing out that there have instances of other (more?) successful coaches who go to practice every day making egregious errors in evaluating their own players. I'm not saying that's what's happening here (I don't think it is), just that dismissing it out of hand as "amusing" (per Billy Chico) is unfair.
Leave Cain on the bench, he is too athletic. When he plays he makes some of our players look slow. We like slow, a quick athletic player screws everything up.
Quote from: vogue65 on March 04, 2019, 11:13:07 PM
Leave Cain on the bench, he is too athletic. When he plays he makes some of our players look slow. We like slow, a quick athletic player screws everything up.
Marquette plays better fast. Teams want to clog up the offense and limit possessions.
Quote from: FrennA on March 03, 2019, 07:15:57 PM
Haven't you watched this year? You're allowed to turn it over as many times as you want provided your name is not Cain. If it is, you get benched after your first TO.
We've had these TO spouts all year round. I am pissed for Cain. I assume I'm missing something like effort in practice or something. I don't know. But especially when he was a serviceable Freshman last year to seeing all his minutes taken by two Freshman this year. I don't get it.
I think if Cain played with more confidence, you might have something semi-credible, however, every time he's in the other team runs plays right at him. His defense has a little ways to go - combined with his propensity to turn it over.....
Quote from: Charlotte Warrior on March 05, 2019, 07:11:18 AM
I think if Cain played with more confidence, you might have something semi-credible, however, every time he's in the other team runs plays right at him. His defense has a little ways to go - combined with his propensity to turn it over.....
Really? What games did the other team go right after Cain on offense? The guy he covers usually does not end up shooting the ball in the very limited minutes he gets. Once in awhile yes, but you make it sound like teams change their plan to attack him - that's not happening.
He does need more confidence, hopefully his accurate shooting in the shots he's taken in conference play can help build that confidence up.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2019, 10:39:48 PM
I'm just pointing out that there have instances of other (more?) successful coaches who go to practice every day making egregious errors in evaluating their own players.
I certainly agree with that. I don't think Wojo has been guilty of that -- I actually think his choice of who plays when and for how many minutes has been one of his strengths -- but it's impossible to argue with your statement that it happens sometimes.
If we go small to eliminate this hard double team on the center/Howard pick and roll......
You put Joey at the 5 for the 3 point shot and a close pass from Howard after drawing out the hard double......
You can play Cain and Bailey......Rebound.....Play hard defense....and just put a hand in the defenders face on 3's especially with both in the 6'8" range......
Only shoot when totally uncontested......
That is all we need......
Sacar and JC could be sprinkled in.....But for rebounding......I want 6'8"
Then with Sam as the 5th.....You have 4 6'8" guys and Howard.....
You want to eliminate the "hard hedge/double team" defense teams are using against us.......This will destroy it.....
This is WOJO's biggest moment of this coaching career........How he adapts to being "coached"......
We have better talent and flexibility than these teams.......USE IT!
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2019, 06:43:47 AM
Marquette plays better fast. Teams want to clog up the offense and limit possessions.
Totally agree with this. I'm admittedly a complete simpleton when it comes to identifying and offering solutions, if only it were as easy as many fans think. I have just noticed that the team gets into their rhythm by pushing the ball quickly and setting up a transition mismatch/etc. Once we pass that point and have to set up an offense, we can be stifled. There are myriad factors that go into that... Athleticism is only one factor.
I also think that it's pretty clear that if everyone but Markus has an off offensive night, we will likely lose.
Quote from: burger on March 05, 2019, 09:43:49 AM
If we go small to eliminate this hard double team on the center/Howard pick and roll......
You put Joey at the 5 for the 3 point shot and a close pass from Howard after drawing out the hard double......
You can play Cain and Bailey......Rebound.....Play hard defense....and just put a hand in the defenders face on 3's especially with both in the 6'8" range......
Only shoot when totally uncontested......
That is all we need......
Sacar and JC could be sprinkled in.....But for rebounding......I want 6'8"
Then with Sam as the 5th.....You have 4 6'8" guys and Howard.....
You want to eliminate the "hard hedge/double team" defense teams are using against us.......This will destroy it.....
This is WOJO's biggest moment of this coaching career........How he adapts to being "coached"......
We have better talent and flexibility than these teams.......USE IT!
You do know that Sacar has been better for most of the conference season than three of the players mentioned, right? That while Joey was on a milk carton, Sacar made it possible for us to beat Nova on NMD, yes?
Sacar is averaging 30+ mpg. He's one of the best perimeter defenders in the conference. He's not gonna be just "sprinkled in," like JCS might be. You might want him to be, but it's not going to happen.
Overall, though, I do like some of your strategy points, even if you're a little overly dramatic.
When does he announce his transfer?
Quote from: 1SE on March 21, 2019, 06:35:58 PM
When does he announce his transfer?
Can't even give it 24 hours, huh?
Not sure he'll leave with his buddy Greg playing next year.
Quote from: Norm on March 21, 2019, 07:22:22 PM
Can't even give it 24 hours, huh?
Not sure he'll leave with his buddy Greg playing next year.
I fully believe Cain to transfer. Why would he stay? I at least respect him for not taking the mid season stupidity transfer so many due.
No matter. Cain is nothing but a garbage time player. Has not shown anything with his minutes
What minutes? He barely played in BE.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Cain transfer and if he does I wouldn't be surprised if it was to a smaller conference
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 21, 2019, 07:55:05 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Cain transfer and if he does I wouldn't be surprised if it was to a smaller conference
Like the University of Detroit.
While anything is possible, I would be surprised if Cain transfers. I hope if he does, they consider using a redshirt on him. I see the potential there but the game is too fast for him right now. I really wanted to redshirt him at the beginning of this season. Greg doesn't get hurt and I think they might have.
He wont be leaving, gotta redshirt him next season let him get stronger and get his game better
Quote from: GoldenEagle323 on March 22, 2019, 10:18:56 AM
He wont be leaving, gotta redshirt him next season let him get stronger and get his game better
How many guys red shirt their junior year not due to transfer or injury? No one.
Should have been redshirted this year. But I think hes gone. Freshman are playing over him, where in the lineup would he be in his jr and senior year
Quote from: #UnleashCain on March 22, 2019, 10:23:40 AM
Should have been redshirted this year. But I think hes gone. Freshman are playing over him, where in the lineup would he be in his jr and senior year
Definitely. But, hard do to when you already have two guys red shirting due to injury. That's on Wojo. He has burned a scholarship for two years on Ike Eke.
If Cain was going to be red shirted, it had to happen this year. Upper class-men don't red shirt, unless they are hurt or transferring in.
Jamal will get an opportunity next year to contribute and he will make the most of it.
He did not have a well defined role this year and I think the coaching staff will work hard to identify a proper use for his talents.
He needs to gain size and strength this summer . I'd like to see him north of 200 pounds
I watch enough Horizon League basketball to say that Cain would be an impact player at that level. Similar to Cohen at UWGB. If that's the role he wants, then there are a number of great options for him close to home with Detroit & Oakland.
It does seem that the coaching staff is moving on with Bailey with those minutes.
Im not sure if Bailey was better than Cain this year but he will be far better next year.
Wojo coaches this season to win games and played the guys he felt gave us the best chance. IMO, he did not play more was based off the fact he is not ready to play at this level. I noted his freshman year that he was not ready to step up in minutes going into this season. Very good athlete, not much of a D1 player at this point.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on March 23, 2019, 08:55:03 AM
Im not sure if Bailey was better than Cain this year but he will be far better next year.
I think he was better simply for one reason; he played like he belonged on the court. Cain played like one of us would have if we were teleported off our couch into a D1 basketball game (with exception of Ners naturally)
Cain is a great kid and seems to genuinely love Marquette. For that reason I'd be a little surprised if he left. But I don't see a ton of minutes for him next season and for that reason, I wouldn't blame the kid for leaving. If MU is gonna redshirt him (has anyone ever redshirted a junior year without a transfer and while healthy tho?), why not redshirt somewhere else where you'll get a bigger role.
I hope he stays. Dude is athletic AF and has some game. But he was way too sped up when he played and was a turnover machine. Some of that would obviously be solved with more minutes, but with Greg and Koby coming in and no obvious departures at his position, gonna be tough sledding.
Quote from: RJax55 on March 22, 2019, 10:21:44 AM
How many guys red shirt their junior year not due to transfer or injury? No one.
I remember Mike Flory redshirting his junior or senior year. Yes, it happens. Very rarely, but not "no one".
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 23, 2019, 10:33:21 AM
If MU is gonna redshirt him (has anyone ever redshirted a junior year without a transfer and while healthy tho?), why not redshirt somewhere else where you'll get a bigger role.
You do it if you and the coaching staff believe that you will have a bigger role after the redshirt. I see potential in Cain, I'd like him to stay. I think he just needs some time to have the game slow down for him.
Cain is going to be free to improve his game somewhere else.
He is probably a classic solid senior but kids don't want to be that anymore. Transfers are part of doing business today.