MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 08:11:09 PM

Title: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 08:11:09 PM
The only way this team loses more than a handful of games in the Big East is turning the ball over. 7 turnovers in the first 13 minutes is how you lose to an inferior team.

Missing open shots will correct itself. Controlling the basketball needs to be a priority.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on January 23, 2019, 08:12:55 PM
It's the type of TOs too

Baileys pass awful.

Markus bounce pass awful.

Joeys TOs all due to not slowing down.

When we slow down and move the ball we always get a good look. And hopefully they will start going in.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2019, 08:13:39 PM
Quote from: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 08:11:09 PM
The only way this team loses more than a handful of games in the Big East is turning the ball over. 7 turnovers in the first 13 minutes is how you lose to an inferior team.

Missing open shots will correct itself. Controlling the basketball needs to be a priority.

+1. Way too loose with the ball sometimes.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 08:21:09 PM
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 23, 2019, 08:12:55 PM
It's the type of TOs too

Baileys pass awful.

Markus bounce pass awful.

Joeys TOs all due to not slowing down.

When we slow down and move the ball we always get a good look. And hopefully they will start going in.

Yup. I like that they're coming on trying to share the ball rather than forcing things on the drive, but there's sharing the ball and then there's trying to force something that just isn't there.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 08:36:38 PM
The other thing is when rebounding on the defensive end guys tend to try to turn up court before fully securing the rebound and clearing the opponent and end up fumbling the ball away. Not sure they're always called turnovers. The last 2 years we wanted to really push it at every opportunity so we should've been looking to get out and run. But the difference was we had Rowsey who had the ball on a string and had a bit of (a less disciplined) Steve Nash in him in that he kept his dribble and always had his head up, seeing the court and being very good at manipulating the defense. Howard is overall a better player but he is not nearly as good in the open court. Obviously if the break is there you take it, but much more than the past 2 years this team needs to first make sure to be smart with the ball as we're much better in a half court game than transition.

And where I think a big problem in the turnovers comes from is picking up the dribble in bad spots on the court. Wide wing with nobody in the corner and trying to make long passes either to the top to a small Markus or into the post with a poor angle to make the entry pass.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: jesmu84 on January 23, 2019, 09:27:25 PM
Bump
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 09:28:42 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 23, 2019, 09:27:25 PM
Bump

Yup. 7 turnovers in the first 13 minutes of the game, then 0 the rest of the first half to head into half time up 13. Now 10 (or more?) in the second half and they've closed the gap.

All about taking care of the basketball for this team.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 30, 2019, 05:37:39 PM
Whelp
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: tower912 on January 30, 2019, 05:38:10 PM
Early.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on January 30, 2019, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2019, 05:38:10 PM
Early.

Early to still win the game

Not too early to be embarrassing basketball value.

These spurts of awful Tos gotta stop come March
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: willie warrior on January 30, 2019, 06:00:34 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2019, 08:13:39 PM
+1. Way too loose with the ball sometimes.
Wojo is the accountable oneo
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: GB Warrior on January 30, 2019, 06:20:47 PM
Quote from: willie warrior on January 30, 2019, 06:00:34 PM
Wojo is the accountable oneo

Wojo has made a lot of sloppy passes this game  ::)
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 30, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
It's amazing how good we look when we don't turn the ball over.

Let's limit the turnovers this second half and get out of here with a W.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: We R Final Four on January 30, 2019, 06:22:38 PM
It's up to Wojo apparently.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: SaveOD238 on January 30, 2019, 06:25:42 PM
The turnover issue is one that will probably go away next year.  Everyone will be one more year experienced, and we're adding another quality ball-handler in Koby.  The freshman mistakes from Joey and Brendan will diminish.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Jay Bee on January 30, 2019, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: SaveOD238 on January 30, 2019, 06:25:42 PM
The turnover issue is one that will probably go away next year.  Everyone will be one more year experienced, and we're adding another quality ball-handler in Koby.  The freshman mistakes from Joey and Brendan will diminish.

Hope so.

Koby was a 19.2% turnover rate guy, higher than Markus. Bailey DOESN'T turn it over. He's had 2 or 3 all season I believe. Sub-5% turnover rate this season. Unheard of. Joey only ~22%.. not awful for a frosh who does what he does. #pray
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on January 30, 2019, 07:03:51 PM
Doesn't make it easy when they're letting them ride us on every dribble.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Eye on January 30, 2019, 07:42:27 PM
And Elliot will be healthy.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marcus92 on January 30, 2019, 07:55:15 PM
Turnovers are the main factor holding back this offense. Overall, KenPom ranks MU 31st in adjusted offensive efficiency -- but just 201st in turnover percentage (19.3%). The inconsistency has been puzzling. Following a season-best performance against Providence (8.7%), MU gave away 25% of its possessions the very next game against DePaul.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Jay Bee on January 30, 2019, 07:57:16 PM
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 30, 2019, 07:55:15 PM
Turnovers are the main factor holding back this offense. Overall, KenPom ranks MU 31st in adjusted offensive efficiency -- but just 201st in turnover percentage (19.3%). The inconsistency has been puzzling. Following a season-best performance against Providence (8.7%), MU gave away 25% of its possessions the very next game against DePaul.

A factor.. the 'main'.. not so sure about that. I'd point to a relatively crappy 2FG% that is gone b tuff 2 fix.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marcus92 on January 30, 2019, 08:02:02 PM
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 30, 2019, 07:57:16 PMA factor.. the 'main'.. not so sure about that. I'd point to a relatively crappy 2FG% that is gone b tuff 2 fix.

True, our 2-point FG% is middle of the road. But that's balanced by the 12th-best 3-point percentage in Division I. Of the four factors, TO% is the team's biggest deficiency.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Daniel on January 30, 2019, 08:07:08 PM
Cut turnovers in half, and get an inside game going and we could be near unstoppable.   
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: avid1010 on January 30, 2019, 08:14:00 PM
Not sure we will see Markus cut his turnovers down...Joey coming out and consistently having multiple turnovers early in the game should be fixable. 
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: tower912 on January 30, 2019, 08:54:20 PM
Yes.   By Joey becoming a sophomore.   
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MU82 on January 30, 2019, 10:06:45 PM
Gotta appreciate joyless willie. The man is consistent.

He is determined to fall on his Wojo Sucks Sword all the way to the bitter end -- bitter for him, that is -- when we're in the Final Four.

Every other Scooper will be celebrating -- even the ones who very, very, very begrudgingly admit that Wojo isn't awful -- but one Scooper will be wearing his joyless frown, hoping against hope that we don't win the national title.

What a great way to go through life!
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Its DJOver on February 13, 2019, 10:03:49 AM
Quote from: wadesworld on January 23, 2019, 08:11:09 PM
The only way this team loses more than a handful of games in the Big East is turning the ball over. 7 turnovers in the first 13 minutes is how you lose to an inferior team.

Missing open shots will correct itself. Controlling the basketball needs to be a priority.

7 TO in 13 min the first time round (19 for the game).  6 TO in 40 min the second time round.  I'm sure a lot of film was watched of the first time and adjustments were made.  Definition of good coaching.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on February 13, 2019, 11:16:06 AM
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 13, 2019, 10:03:49 AM
7 TO in 13 min the first time round (19 for the game).  6 TO in 40 min the second time round.  I'm sure a lot of film was watched of the first time and adjustments were made.  Definition of good coaching.

Yup.  And great ball movement leading to wide open shots all game.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on February 23, 2019, 11:58:54 AM
Bump. Our transition D has been phenomenal so it's limiting the damage by all the turnovers, but they still are taking away an opportunity at a shot.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MUfanatic45 on February 23, 2019, 12:06:42 PM
Quote from: wadesworld on February 23, 2019, 11:58:54 AM
Bump. Our transition D has been phenomenal so it's limiting the damage by all the turnovers, but they still are taking away an opportunity at a shot.

TO's are the only thing keeping this close right now
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: wadesworld on March 03, 2019, 03:11:01 PM
Bump. Settle down and don't get yourself into a corner.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: nyg on March 03, 2019, 03:16:00 PM
They miss, we miss.  They score, we score.  Can't take advantage to go up. Just not good.

This continues, gonna be a free throw contest. 
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: nyg on March 03, 2019, 03:17:25 PM
Quote from: nyg on March 03, 2019, 03:16:00 PM
They miss, we miss.  They score, we score.  Can't take advantage to go up. Just not good.

This continues, gonna be a free throw contest.

Ops, wrong thread. 
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MattyWarrior on March 03, 2019, 03:28:02 PM
Hard to watch
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: shoothoops on March 03, 2019, 03:46:06 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2019, 08:54:20 PM
Yes.   By Joey becoming a sophomore.

He has shown a lot of promise this year. A really good off season of strength and conditioning would benefit him greatly.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: The Sultan on March 03, 2019, 04:01:55 PM
A Hauser turned the ball over four times in five possessions down the stretch.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: TFlegend on March 03, 2019, 04:27:29 PM
Honest question.  How do you practice not turning the ball over?
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: rocky_warrior on March 03, 2019, 04:32:48 PM
Quote from: TFlegend on March 03, 2019, 04:27:29 PM
Honest question.  How do you practice not turning the ball over?

Have the starters play against McEwen, Cain, Bailey,  Morrow and Heldt, allowing those guys to foul while swatting at the ball without calling it.  I guess...

Seems like we have a perfect "disrupt ball movement" scout team, hopefully Wojo's using it.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 04, 2019, 03:29:14 PM
Quote from: TFlegend on March 03, 2019, 04:27:29 PM
Honest question.  How do you practice not turning the ball over?

Tackling dummies
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marqevans on March 04, 2019, 03:39:12 PM
We lost the ball everytime we were double teamed. Slap happy Blue Jays were never called.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 04, 2019, 03:42:34 PM
Quote from: Marqevans on March 04, 2019, 03:39:12 PM
We lost the ball everytime we were double teamed. Slap happy Blue Jays were never called.

There is some truth to this. There was a sequence early in the game where Christian Bishop committed two hard hedges on Howard that I was shocked weren't called blocking fouls. I think those two non-calls were big not because getting Bishop in early foul trouble would have helped, but because I think it sent a clear message to the Jays that they could get away with that kind of defense this game. Credit to them, they recognized it and took advantage. Those fouls get called and maybe McDermott hesitates to throw that aggressive of pressure at Howard.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 03:46:58 PM
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 04, 2019, 03:42:34 PM
There is some truth to this. There was a sequence early in the game where Christian Bishop committed two hard hedges on Howard that I was shocked weren't called blocking fouls. I think those two non-calls were big not because getting Bishop in early foul trouble would have helped, but because I think it sent a clear message to the Jays that they could get away with that kind of defense this game. Credit to them, they recognized it and took advantage. Those fouls get called and maybe McDermott hesitates to throw that aggressive of pressure at Howard.

I agree with this.

I'm not one who cries much about the refs, but those were fouls and they are supposed to be called -- especially now that "freedom of movement" rules are being emphasized. Markus didn't get much respect from the refs yesterday; hammered with no calls on a couple of drives, too, and the offensive foul was questionable at best.

Guys still needed to play better, though. I'm sure a Creighton observer could point to 10 calls or no calls that hurt their team. Not to mention ... Sam's shot at Creighton!
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: BrewCity83 on March 04, 2019, 03:56:26 PM
That game reminded me a bit of Huggins' old Cincinnati teams that played very aggressive defense, going after the ball and playing D with reckless abandon, knowing they would be committing fouls but also knowing that they would be getting away with a lot of rough play and fouls that wouldn't be called. 
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Its DJOver on March 04, 2019, 04:01:36 PM
I would have liked to hear that conversation when the refs stopped the game so that Markus could get bandaged.  "Gee, I wonder how that scratch that is apparently bleeding so badly that you have to stop the game got there, it wasn't there two possessions ago, I think I probably just did it to myself in my sleep."
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marcus92 on March 04, 2019, 04:14:27 PM
Limiting turnovers has been a point of emphasis for the team since the beginning of the season. The managers track turnovers during every scrimmage in practice. Wojo talks about protecting the ball and valuing possessions in virtually every press conference.

So how does Marquette end up ranked 250th by KenPom in turnover percentage (19.8%), down from 17.3% (99th) a season ago?

I'm not sure, honestly.

Obviously it has something to do with Markus. He's improved as a passer this season. But he's not quite as efficient a distributor (27.1% ARate, 18.5% TORate) as Rowsey was last season (28.6% ARate, 16.4% TORate). His higher usage tends to magnify the difference.

It doesn't help that our secondary ball handler, Joseph Chartouny, leads the team in turnover rate: an astounding 35.2%. (Not even Junior Cadougan, Derrick Wilson or Traci Carter ever topped 30 percent.) On top of that, three other players in the regular rotation boast turnover rates above 20 percent: Joey (22.9%), Theo (22.2%) and Ed (25.2%).

In fact, only 3 players on the entire roster have turnover rates below the national average: Sam (11.8%), Sacar (15.9%) and Brendan (4.8%).

Until the past couple games, turnovers have been more of a nagging occasional concern than a glaring problem. I suspect taking better care of the ball -- not forcing the offense, making smarter passes, practicing the press break, responding to double teams -- is going to get even more attention from this point on.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marcus92 on March 04, 2019, 04:31:18 PM
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 04, 2019, 04:01:36 PMI would have liked to hear that conversation when the refs stopped the game so that Markus could get bandaged.  "Gee, I wonder how that scratch that is apparently bleeding so badly that you have to stop the game got there, it wasn't there two possessions ago, I think I probably just did it to myself in my sleep."

LOL, was thinking almost the same thing. Certainly not a foul by the opposing team. Of course not.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 10:26:27 PM
Quote from: BrewCity83 on March 04, 2019, 03:56:26 PM
That game reminded me a bit of Huggins' old Cincinnati teams that played very aggressive defense, going after the ball and playing D with reckless abandon, knowing they would be committing fouls but also knowing that they would be getting away with a lot of rough play and fouls that wouldn't be called.

When I coached middle school basketball, the No. 1 thing I wanted was for my kids to be aggressive. We used to shout, "Aggressiveness!" coming out of every huddle. I told them many times that, with very few exceptions (such as our best players being in foul trouble): "I don't care if you foul. That's why we have backups we trust." I stressed that I didn't want us to play dirty, just aggressively.

I knew we'd get called for our share of fouls, and we did, but I also knew that the refs couldn't possibly call everything. And the refs often give the benefit of the doubt to the aggressors.

I'm an assistant HS coach now and at halftime of a game a couple weeks ago we had 2 fouls as a team. I went to the coach and said, "There is no way we are playing aggressively enough. We only have two effen fouls in an entire half." And he opened his halftime speech by telling the girls exactly that. In the second half, we got more fouls. We also set the tone of the game with our aggressiveness and ended up winning decisively.

My long way of saying that I thought McDermott was very smart to turn up the heat on Markus and anybody else who had the basketball. Until the refs start calling it, just keep doing it.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: AZMarqfan on March 04, 2019, 10:31:19 PM
when was the last time Marquette had a PG where we just KNEW they could break a press on their own? Rowsey was a nice ball handler (better dribbler and faster than Howard).  Was it Junior Cadougan?  DJO wasn't really our PG, but his speed with the ball was a sight to behold. 
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: jesmu84 on March 04, 2019, 10:46:33 PM
Quote from: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 10:26:27 PM
When I coached middle school basketball, the No. 1 thing I wanted was for my kids to be aggressive. We used to shout, "Aggressiveness!" coming out of every huddle. I told them many times that, with very few exceptions (such as our best players being in foul trouble): "I don't care if you foul. That's why we have backups we trust." I stressed that I didn't want us to play dirty, just aggressively.

I knew we'd get called for our share of fouls, and we did, but I also knew that the refs couldn't possibly call everything. And the refs often give the benefit of the doubt to the aggressors.

I'm an assistant HS coach now and at halftime of a game a couple weeks ago we had 2 fouls as a team. I went to the coach and said, "There is no way we are playing aggressively enough. We only have two effen fouls in an entire half." And he opened his halftime speech by telling the girls exactly that. In the second half, we got more fouls. We also set the tone of the game with our aggressiveness and ended up winning decisively.

My long way of saying that I thought McDermott was very smart to turn up the heat on Markus and anybody else who had the basketball. Until the refs start calling it, just keep doing it.

And therein lies my problem with it. A foul is a foul.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: BM1090 on March 04, 2019, 11:06:05 PM
Quote from: AZMarqfan on March 04, 2019, 10:31:19 PM
when was the last time Marquette had a PG where we just KNEW they could break a press on their own? Rowsey was a nice ball handler (better dribbler and faster than Howard).  Was it Junior Cadougan?  DJO wasn't really our PG, but his speed with the ball was a sight to behold.

Definitely not either of those two. I loved Junior but he was a disaster at times against pressure (Louisville) and DJO didn't bring it up much. Maybe Derrick but he didn't do much once the pressure was broken.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 11:32:37 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 04, 2019, 10:46:33 PM
And therein lies my problem with it. A foul is a foul.

We agree.

We both also know that, as common-sense as that is, the refs often aren't going to call a foul a foul.

We can hate that, we can wish that weren't true, but we really can't dispute that.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on March 04, 2019, 11:33:46 PM
Quote from: AZMarqfan on March 04, 2019, 10:31:19 PM
when was the last time Marquette had a PG where we just KNEW they could break a press on their own? Rowsey was a nice ball handler (better dribbler and faster than Howard).  Was it Junior Cadougan?  DJO wasn't really our PG, but his speed with the ball was a sight to behold.

Dominic James' senior year and the Acker the year after
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: NorthernDancerColt on March 05, 2019, 01:44:50 AM
Quote from: AZMarqfan on March 04, 2019, 10:31:19 PM
when was the last time Marquette had a PG where we just KNEW they could break a press on their own? Rowsey was a nice ball handler (better dribbler and faster than Howard).  Was it Junior Cadougan?  DJO wasn't really our PG, but his speed with the ball was a sight to behold.

Nope. Nope. Nope.
Toe-Knee-Mill-er.
It was his combination of speed, handles, and know-how.

In our NCAA dismantling of Kentucky in 1994, Coach O'Neill asked Lute Olson, his old boss, how to break Pitino's vaunted full-court pressure. His answer was to just have Tony attack their big man (bigger guard/forward) with the dribble. Almost a Vander lay-up vs Davidson big approach, but on getting the ball over half court.


"If Tony goes in front of a bus today...I go in front of one tomorrow."
~Kevin O'Neill
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: The Sultan on March 05, 2019, 06:45:07 AM
Quote from: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 11:32:37 PM
We agree.

We both also know that, as common-sense as that is, the refs often aren't going to call a foul a foul.

We can hate that, we can wish that weren't true, but we really can't dispute that.


If they called every foul, games would be four hours long and Cam would be playing point.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: SaveOD238 on March 05, 2019, 08:03:48 AM
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 04, 2019, 10:46:33 PM
And therein lies my problem with it. A foul is a foul.

Except it's not.  It's not a foul unless the refs call it a foul.  That's their job.

I umpire baseball, and the same applies there.  I see pitchers all the time throw a good curve that they think just catches the corner for strike 3, then start walking off.  When I say "ball" they get mad, but it's not a strike until I call it a strike.  That's how the game works.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: muwarrior69 on March 05, 2019, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: MU82 on March 04, 2019, 10:26:27 PM
When I coached middle school basketball, the No. 1 thing I wanted was for my kids to be aggressive. We used to shout, "Aggressiveness!" coming out of every huddle. I told them many times that, with very few exceptions (such as our best players being in foul trouble): "I don't care if you foul. That's why we have backups we trust." I stressed that I didn't want us to play dirty, just aggressively.

I knew we'd get called for our share of fouls, and we did, but I also knew that the refs couldn't possibly call everything. And the refs often give the benefit of the doubt to the aggressors.

I'm an assistant HS coach now and at halftime of a game a couple weeks ago we had 2 fouls as a team. I went to the coach and said, "There is no way we are playing aggressively enough. We only have two effen fouls in an entire half." And he opened his halftime speech by telling the girls exactly that. In the second half, we got more fouls. We also set the tone of the game with our aggressiveness and ended up winning decisively.

My long way of saying that I thought McDermott was very smart to turn up the heat on Markus and anybody else who had the basketball. Until the refs start calling it, just keep doing it.

...but Theo and Ed get called whether they're aggressive or not. So many phantom fouls. And Markus had blood on his arm, yet he wasn't fouled.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: muwarrior69 on March 05, 2019, 08:16:50 AM
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 05, 2019, 08:03:48 AM
Except it's not.  It's not a foul unless the refs call it a foul.  That's their job.

I umpire baseball, and the same applies there.  I see pitchers all the time throw a good curve that they think just catches the corner for strike 3, then start walking off.  When I say "ball" they get mad, but it's not a strike until I call it a strike.  That's how the game works.

Hmm... so the same pitch could be a strike for one team, but a ball for the other. Does not give me much confidence in the integrity of sports.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 05, 2019, 09:07:44 AM
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 05, 2019, 08:16:50 AM
Hmm... so the same pitch could be a strike for one team, but a ball for the other. Does not give me much confidence in the integrity of sports.

this isn't anything new though. Human error is a part of sports. Strikes, did a guy step on the line, get a shot off before buzzer, was a ten count too long, a fight should've been stopped, a foul or not, a hand ball or not, the list goes on and on and on.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MU82 on March 05, 2019, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 05, 2019, 08:11:51 AM
...but Theo and Ed get called whether they're aggressive or not. So many phantom fouls. And Markus had blood on his arm, yet he wasn't fouled.

Although I think Theo "earned" every one of his fouls the last couple of games, sure, I understand what you're saying.

But I assure you that the other team's fans say the exact same thing about fouls that some of their guys were getting called for and some of our guys weren't.

Our guys can't control it, they just have to play better and smarter and stronger with the ball.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2019, 09:48:41 AM
Quote from: MU82 on March 05, 2019, 09:23:30 AM
Although I think Theo "earned" every one of his fouls the last couple of games, sure, I understand what you're saying.

But I assure you that the other team's fans say the exact same thing about fouls that some of their guys were getting called for and some of our guys weren't.

Our guys can't control it, they just have to play better and smarter and stronger with the ball.

This is all true but what fans here are calling for is consistency.  However, styles of play are different between teams.  Teams are now hard hedging Marquette's perimeter.  Marquette actually guards well on the perimeter with their positioning without fouling.

For example, BE refs will call Theo and Ed often for not fully setting a pick (which they are usually guilty of as Wojo teaches the Duke hit and go slip screen). Yet, teams are not getting the calls on hard hedging (arm bars, grabbing, aggressive bodying).  Both are points of emphasis.  Only one is getting called consistently, made worse by differing styles of play.

If Nova or Creighton played MU in the NCAAs with PAC12 officials, the foul outcomes of our two games would be vastly different. And that is the complaint.  That is also why I am not a fan of the points of emphasis as I think it has led to more, not less, inconsistency.  A foul is a foul. Call it. Like the NFL, these types of oversight rules make refs litigators.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: #UnleashSean on March 05, 2019, 09:56:58 AM
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 05, 2019, 08:03:48 AM
Except it's not.  It's not a foul unless the refs call it a foul.  That's their job.

I umpire baseball, and the same applies there.  I see pitchers all the time throw a good curve that they think just catches the corner for strike 3, then start walking off.  When I say "ball" they get mad, but it's not a strike until I call it a strike.  That's how the game works.

You seem power hungry and have very low integrity if your calling a strike a ball because it's such an easy call the pitcher walks off knowing it's a strike
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Bocephys on March 05, 2019, 09:57:19 AM
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 05, 2019, 08:16:50 AM
Hmm... so the same pitch could be a strike for one team, but a ball for the other. Does not give me much confidence in the integrity of sports.

Are you just coming to this realization?
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 05, 2019, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: #UnleashCain on March 05, 2019, 09:56:58 AM


You seem power hungry and have very low integrity if your calling a strike a ball because it's such an easy call the pitcher walks off knowing it's a strike

When did he say he did that?
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MU82 on March 05, 2019, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2019, 09:48:41 AM
This is all true but what fans here are calling for is consistency. 

Agreed.

This is elusive, however -- especially in basketball, where something can be called on either team on just about every half-court possession. Brutally difficult game to officiate.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: SaveOD238 on March 05, 2019, 11:58:46 AM
Quote from: #UnleashCain on March 05, 2019, 09:56:58 AM


You seem power hungry and have very low integrity if your calling a strike a ball because it's such an easy call the pitcher walks off knowing it's a strike

Pitcher doesn't know it's a strike until I say so.  He can think it's a strike all he wants.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: jesmu84 on March 05, 2019, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 05, 2019, 11:58:46 AM
Pitcher doesn't know it's a strike until I say so.  He can think it's a strike all he wants.

Um. Doesn't the rulebook define what a strike is?
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marcus92 on March 05, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
The rulebook doesn't call balls and strikes during a game.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: jesmu84 on March 05, 2019, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 05, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
The rulebook doesn't call balls and strikes during a game.

Right. But the rulebook defines it and the ref/ump enforces the written rules during the game.

The ref/ump doesn't just get to decide to do whatever they want whenever they want (Tim donaghy not withstanding)
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Marcus92 on March 05, 2019, 04:30:25 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 05, 2019, 04:13:54 PMRight. But the rulebook defines it and the ref/ump enforces the written rules during the game.

The ref/ump doesn't just get to decide to do whatever they want whenever they want (Tim donaghy not withstanding)

All true. I might say refs do their best to interpret and apply the rules during a game. There are so many calls that could go either way in basketball. There's some level of contact on virtually every drive. Was it a reach-in? A push-off? Charging? Defensive blocking? Refs have guidelines and training to go on. But ultimately it's up to their judgment.

While you hope refs call games correctly and consistently, they're going to miss something. Or make the wrong call. They're only human. But apart from replay reversals, their bad calls stand. Rules or not. Even a post-game review of the officiating can't change the outcome of a game once it's decided.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: SaveOD238 on March 05, 2019, 05:44:38 PM
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 05, 2019, 04:30:25 PM
All true. I might say refs do their best to interpret and apply the rules during a game. There are so many calls that could go either way in basketball. There's some level of contact on virtually every drive. Was it a reach-in? A push-off? Charging? Defensive blocking? Refs have guidelines and training to go on. But ultimately it's up to their judgment.

While you hope refs call games correctly and consistently, they're going to miss something. Or make the wrong call. They're only human. But apart from replay reversals, their bad calls stand. Rules or not. Even a post-game review of the officiating can't change the outcome of a game once it's decided.

So you gotta deal with the calls the refs make. You gotta adjust.  If the umpire is giving the pitcher the inside corner more often than not, you better choke up and protect inside.  If the ref is calling ticky-tack reach ins, you gotta play a little less aggressively on defense.  It's the same as adjusting to the opposing team. I
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2019, 08:48:50 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 05, 2019, 04:06:20 PM
Um. Doesn't the rulebook define what a strike is?

Only Joe West defines what a strike is.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MUfanatic45 on March 06, 2019, 05:35:27 PM
3 possessions 3 TO's

It will not stop
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: HowardsWorld on March 06, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
4 on 4. Clearly learned nothing.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: TFlegend on March 06, 2019, 05:36:55 PM
4 POS, 4 turnovers.  LOL.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: warriors141 on March 06, 2019, 05:37:38 PM
this is really concerning. the hausers have completely lost it
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MUeng on March 06, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
Sam is straight garbage right now.  Put in cain or bailey.  Hey, maybe this T by Theo will fire up the squad?  worth a short eh?
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MattyWarrior on March 06, 2019, 05:49:06 PM
Trap them do the same to them steal the ball
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: The Sultan on March 06, 2019, 05:55:48 PM
Technicals are stupid and Sam looks completely lost.
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MattyWarrior on March 06, 2019, 05:57:13 PM
They look lost like a completely different team the last 3 games
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2019, 06:14:54 PM
Pretty sure Markus will be back next season, aina?
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: AZMarqfan on March 06, 2019, 06:18:35 PM
Quote from: MattyWarrior on March 06, 2019, 05:57:13 PM
They look lost like a completely different team the last 3 games

not at all.  Marquette has been terrible with turnovers all year.  Apparently other teams are figuring it out.  With opponents shooting better, it gives them time to set up a press.  Now would be a good time for JC to start looking comfortable.  Trent Locket was terrible until the post-season, maybe JC can wake up before Trent did. 

We knew going into the off-season that we needed a true PG.  A few of us were hoping Elliott would develop, but his injury hurt.  Anim looks afraid to use his left hand (all layups from left side of floor are with right hand).  Howard has made a lot of progress with dribbling, distribution, and defense, but he's still far below Rowsey in those areas.  Time to figure out how to dribble
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: MUfanatic45 on March 06, 2019, 06:19:36 PM
Quote from: AZMarqfan on March 06, 2019, 06:18:35 PM
not at all.  Marquette has been terrible with turnovers all year.  Apparently other teams are figuring it out.  With opponents shooting better, it gives them time to set up a press.  Now would be a good time for JC to start looking comfortable.  Trent Locket was terrible until the post-season, maybe JC can wake up before Trent did. 

We knew going into the off-season that we needed a true PG.  A few of us were hoping Elliott would develop, but his injury hurt.  Anim looks afraid to use his left hand (all layups from left side of floor are with right hand).  Howard has made a lot of progress with dribbling, distribution, and defense, but he's still far below Rowsey in those areas.  Time to figure out how to dribble

Oppenents arent really shooting better tho
Title: Re: Value the Basketball
Post by: The Sultan on March 06, 2019, 06:24:21 PM
Quote from: AZMarqfan on March 06, 2019, 06:18:35 PM
not at all.  Marquette has been terrible with turnovers all year.  Apparently other teams are figuring it out.  With opponents shooting better, it gives them time to set up a press.  Now would be a good time for JC to start looking comfortable.  Trent Locket was terrible until the post-season, maybe JC can wake up before Trent did. 

We knew going into the off-season that we needed a true PG.  A few of us were hoping Elliott would develop, but his injury hurt.  Anim looks afraid to use his left hand (all layups from left side of floor are with right hand).  Howard has made a lot of progress with dribbling, distribution, and defense, but he's still far below Rowsey in those areas.  Time to figure out how to dribble

Trent Lockett was not terrible until the post season.
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